Who Pays the Bill? Exploring Gender, Money & Relationships ft. Nikhil Taneja

How do traditional gender roles around money impact modern relationships? In this episode of Love Matters, Leeza Mangaldas and Nikhil Taneja discuss navigating finances in partnerships, breaking patriarchal norms, and embracing equality in love. From splitting bills to addressing societal pressures, this conversation is a must-listen for anyone rethinking relationship dynamics. Tune in on your favorite podcast platform!

Leeza Mangaldas’ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/leezamangaldas/?hl=en 

Nikhil Taneja’s Social handles: 
Instagram- https://www.instagram.com/tanejamainhoon?igsh=MXZxbzk2eDF0emQ2Nw==X- https://x.com/tanejamainhoon?s=21

Credits:

Produced by:
Patricia Szilagyi (DW)
Charulata Biswas (IE)
Khyati Rajvanshi (IE)

Researcher & Editor:
Sana Rizvi (DW)

Audio Editor:
Suresh Pawar(IE)

Project Manager:
Patricia Szilagyi (DW)

Executive Producer:
Melanie von Marschalck (DW Life & Style)
Anant Nath Sharma (IE)

Love Matters with Leeza Mangaldas is a cooperation between The Indian Express and DW, Germany’s international broadcaster. 

Learn more about DW:
https://www.dw.com

Get in touch [e-mail]

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello, and welcome to Love Matters. I'm Lisa Mangeldas, and
before we dive in today's episode, i'd like to request
you to please rate and review this podcast wherever you're listening,
or leave a comment if you're watching on YouTube, because
we love receiving feedback from you, and we're going to
be reading some of the most creative comments and reviews
at the end of each show. All right, now, let's

(00:24):
dive in.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Today.

Speaker 1 (00:25):
We're going to be talking about a topic that often
remains unspoken even though it impacts all of our relationships.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Money.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
How do money and gender roles show up in our
personal lives? No matter how hard I have tried to
shake off traditional gender.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
Roles, ideas of who gets to be.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
The breadwinner and who must be the caregiver still factor in.
And I'm going to be unpacking this topic with a
very special guest, Nick hil Taneja, who I am also
grateful I get to call a dear friend.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
Nick Hill is the founder.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
And CEO of Youva Media and impact organization dedicated to
amplifying youth voices. He's also a writer and producer who
uses storytelling to up and social norms and he's the
host of Be a Man R, an award winning podcast
that celebrates positive masculinity and again challenges regressive gender role. So, Nikil,

(01:19):
such a pleasure to have you here, and I'm excited
to be focusing on also what money means in the
way that masculinity is constructed within relationships, because I think
we'll have a personal insights that will be interesting to
unfact together as a woman and a man.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
So I'm going.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
To start with who paid the bill on your first
date with your now wife?

Speaker 3 (01:42):
Great, you're diving right in first question. It was me,
you know, I was the one who gave the money.
I have to say that me and my partner my
wife have been together for eighteen or nineteen years now,
so we've been together since college. And when you're going
on a date in college, and this is two thousand

(02:02):
and six, I don't even think it was assumed that
the woman would be It was pretty much clear that
if I'm asking a girl out on a date, I'm
paying for it.

Speaker 4 (02:15):
You know, things have obviously changed since then, but not
as much.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
I would still say, how do you think historical context
factors into this? Like, you know, when I speak to
men about this, it can be quite polarizing. I've spoken
on social media about like, you know, who do you
think should pay on a first date?

Speaker 2 (02:33):
And many men are like, why do why are we
expected to pay?

Speaker 1 (02:36):
And I mean, if I'm honest, I would appreciate it
if a man paid on the first date.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
I would offer I would always bring.

Speaker 1 (02:42):
My card out, and I would like him to be like, no,
I got this, you get it next time, and not
so much because I can't afford to pay. Of course,
I can afford to pay for mines. I do not
need the man to pay for the coffee. But I
think that it is a hot tip to the fact
that there has long been systemic inequality that has disenfranchised women.
I pay for my coffee now and then it's okay,

(03:03):
you know what I mean. Whereas I think today like
men sometimes forget the history and think like, well, men
are so entitled they just want us to be or
at least that's.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
What I get from a lot of young men.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
What do you see, given that you're interacting with so
many young people, if.

Speaker 4 (03:17):
There is a man showcasing his so to speak.

Speaker 3 (03:23):
Manliness or marchionists coming to the table saying that I've
got this again the way you spoke of it, even
in the tone that you said, it's very sweet and
respectful to say, hey, I've got this.

Speaker 4 (03:34):
At the same time, the same thing can be said
in a.

Speaker 3 (03:36):
Slightly more superior way, you know, it can be said
in a hyper masculine way.

Speaker 4 (03:40):
We've got like I got this, babe, you know.

Speaker 3 (03:42):
Which is something that a woman might actually get offended
by that.

Speaker 4 (03:46):
Why are you assuming that I don't have the money?

Speaker 3 (03:49):
So it again depends upon the kind of people over there,
and it depends upon what we are going for.

Speaker 4 (03:53):
It's a very complicated thing.

Speaker 3 (03:55):
There is no clear answer because you know, historically, I
think again, for anybody I would imagine is a good
intentioned man, we've always grown up being given the perspective
that chivalry is important, that you have to, you know,
woo the girl, and even the girl's been pretty much
told the woman or you know, whoever the partner of

(04:15):
the person is, has always been told that you will get.

Speaker 4 (04:18):
Wooed of you, you'll be strepped off your feet. There's
a knight in shining armor.

Speaker 3 (04:21):
There's someone who's going to come and charm you, and
part of the charm is that he do worry about it.

Speaker 4 (04:26):
I've got this.

Speaker 3 (04:27):
At the same time, you know where there is patriarchy
so deeply embedded in every relationship right now, being coming
into a table and showcasing your money or flexing your money,
which is a lot of what men also do. Especially
a range marriage, a range marriages, a contact is just
that right. Ultimately, it is the fact that I am
marrying you because you have a ton of money, and

(04:47):
you are marrying the woman because she's a certain way,
she looks a certain way. It is a shopping card,
it is Amazon. It is like, Okay, how much do
you have and how much? What do I bring to
the table? What do you bring to the table? And
I'm not shitting on all arranged marriage I don't know
are very different. But you just take a simple look
at your matrimonial pages in newspapers.

Speaker 4 (05:06):
What are they looking for?

Speaker 2 (05:07):
But don't forget same religion, same cast.

Speaker 4 (05:10):
Of course, there is that.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
Plus there is the fact that the man needs to
earn a certain amount of money and the woman needs
to be a certain kind of fair.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
It's an economic relationship marriage historically.

Speaker 3 (05:20):
Yeah, so it's you know, I mean, we can there
is no right answer, and I think so much of
it comes down to intent, you know, and and you
know those are things that you can't actually define. It
becomes too difficult to come on places like this and
define what would make for great intent. It just is,
you know, there is chemistry that sometimes you have and
then it is assumed or understood, and every date has

(05:42):
to be different, I would imagine, right like I have
actually just dated two people, right, so I don't have
that kind of context.

Speaker 4 (05:48):
But the more I.

Speaker 3 (05:50):
Talk to young people, the more I talk to my friends,
ultimately it comes and clicks.

Speaker 4 (05:53):
It clicks.

Speaker 3 (05:54):
You know, there are times where a woman might say
I'm being the man would never get offended. A man
says I'm being a woman get offended. It could be
the absolute other way around. What are you looking for
in a person? And I think it should it should
come down to two individual people. Unfortunately comes down to people,
and it comes to patriarchal context, and it comes to
historical context, which becomes a lot of pressure sometimes of

(06:15):
what is the right thing to do. I don't know
if I have that answer.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
There really is so much to unpack, Nickel, and thanks
for breaking it down, just in terms of the sheer
complexity of the issue. But back to personal experiences, how
do you and your wife sort of navigate finances?

Speaker 2 (06:33):
Are there rigid rules or is it quite flexible?

Speaker 1 (06:37):
Like I see you as someone deeply committed to equality,
and yet just from a practical perspective, we have to
structure these things.

Speaker 3 (06:43):
So the funny thing is that when we started, when
you were dating, you know, and I was. I mean
I studied in an energic Guruchetre and that's where I
met her. She was my junior in college. I decided
not to take the engineering jobs I landed to jobs
after engineering, but it came to mumbey too to make
it to pursue my dreams, I joined in the Time
Times right up front, and I started earning what would

(07:06):
be one third of what I would have gotten if
I would have taken up the jobs that I got
in engineering. So my starting salary was fourteen and a
half thousand at h d h in the Sun Times.
And for the first two and a half years in Bombay,
in a city like Bombay, I was only on that
right and didn't get a raise because this session happened
at that two eight nine, and suddenly for two years

(07:29):
I was not earning enough. My wife graduated, went to
Bangalore for a bit and then she came to Bombay,
and her starting salary was way more than mine, right
because she started from an engineering background. At some point
we decided, at some point, we decided that we were
going to stay together. And I was still earning a
lot less than her and she was always earning a
lot more than me. And I was very happy about that,

(07:51):
you know, I was very comfortable because I was like,
at least they should be one person between us who
is earning decently because I am struggling for a bit
and uh and hopefully this struggle leads to me getting
good amount of money at some point in time. But
at the time when I don't have it, you know,
I felt very somehow, I felt very grateful that I

(08:12):
do have a partner that who is earning a stable
income whereas I am going to go up and down.

Speaker 4 (08:18):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (08:18):
And she was also completely fine with it, you know,
and she was very sweet about it. So even though
my first my dates in college when the other other
way where I was paying a lot of the uh,
you know, lunch and dinners that we did together. But
during Mumbai, it actually reversed for a bit where I.

Speaker 4 (08:37):
Was just like, listen, I have the money, you know,
and she's like.

Speaker 3 (08:40):
I got this, and it was it was really sweet,
and you know, so there was a little bit of.

Speaker 4 (08:46):
Payback from college, you know, runch just uh.

Speaker 3 (08:51):
And then when I started, in fact, when I went
to Yasha, just started finally earning a certain amount of
money and you know, it immediately became a little bit
more than And that's what the media operates like, right
when you make it, it suddenly, you know, you suddenly
get those jumps. And again I was suddenly on the
other side, very happy about that. But as you know,

(09:11):
I was diagnosed with clinical anxiety at that time. I
ended up quitting my job and it took a sabbatical.
At this point of time, Daisy and never married. And
the reason that I could take a sabbatical for six months,
you know, not doing a job for a while, was
because again I had spoken to her that I am
not feeling good to my mental health. Are you going
to be okay if I take some time off, will

(09:32):
you be able to take run the home? And she
was obviously very supportive and she said that's not a problem.
So even though at that point of time she's earning
just a little less than me.

Speaker 4 (09:41):
She was more than.

Speaker 3 (09:41):
Happy to run the household for about six months, where
I was still not sure what I'm want to do,
and now the other way around again where I'm at
a place where I am now earning a lot more
than her.

Speaker 4 (09:53):
And now it's come to.

Speaker 3 (09:55):
The fact that a way earlier it was when as
my salary was growing.

Speaker 4 (10:00):
First we were like at a fifty to fifty.

Speaker 3 (10:02):
Then it became I'm earning more, so I'm happy to
pay more in thirty fifty, thirty seventy, and now it's
almost one hundred percent because she's just like, why do I.

Speaker 4 (10:11):
Need to pay again given what you're learning?

Speaker 3 (10:13):
Like fair enough, you know, so I feel again it
comes down if you have partners with understanding of each
other and who support each other and wore kind to
each other, you know, money does not become a hot
topic area, you know it is. It really depends upon
who needs what and at what stage it is about.

Speaker 4 (10:33):
You know, it's about where do you.

Speaker 3 (10:38):
Who can take the onus, who can take the burden,
and at what point in that relationship. Sometimes you require
both people to contribute equally, and sometimes one person needs
to contribute a little bit more because that's what the
situation requires.

Speaker 4 (10:51):
And if you love each other and you have respect.

Speaker 3 (10:53):
For each other, it shouldn't matter, right, It's just that,
of course, we look at everything from a gendered way.
So if a woman is paying, we said get afraid
and say that, okay, does that make me less of
a man? And if a man is being suddenly it
becomes like, oh, is this patriarchy?

Speaker 4 (11:06):
No, Sometimes it's just relationships. Sometimes it's just the two
people supporting each other in whatever circumstance that they possibly can,
I suppose.

Speaker 1 (11:14):
Unfortunately, also how the world views you ends up factoring
into what you feel you can and cannot be okay
with as well, right like were when you were earning
less than daisy in the early days, for example, was
there any resistance or scrutiny from family members or you know, friends,

(11:36):
I don't know, any judgment.

Speaker 2 (11:37):
From the outside world.

Speaker 3 (11:39):
Often that factors in right to I would imagine, and
in certain cases it very much does. In my case,
I was the one showing off to everybody saying that,
you know, the breadwinner in my family is my wife.
You know, I'm the bread leader. That's what that was.
The joke that I used to be given. I eat
the bridge, he wins it, because I knew that, you know.
And again there was also came from a certain kind

(12:01):
of confidence that I'm not going.

Speaker 4 (12:02):
To be a freeloader.

Speaker 3 (12:03):
I'm not going to just use the money and you know,
and then not work for it. You know, I knew
that it's a matter of time, and I really had
that faith in myself that at some point I am
going to be able to earn a certain decent amount
of money.

Speaker 4 (12:15):
But this is a time that I need that support.

Speaker 3 (12:17):
I don't know where that confidence came from, but I
was very comfortable with the fact that you are supporting
me now in a way that you know, I wouldn't
have assumed you would.

Speaker 4 (12:26):
But I'm grateful for it.

Speaker 3 (12:27):
And I do know at the time where I am
able to earn a little bit more, I am going
to do the same for you, if at all you require.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
I think the idea of expenses commissary to income if
both people are earning, is a wonderful thing. But sadly,
what I was trying to get at earlier also was that,
like the foundations of many relationships, and particularly with family,
involvement as you were doing about arranged marriage and stuff,
there is such fundamental inequality baked in.

Speaker 2 (12:53):
Like let's look at things from the woman's perspective for
a second.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
Let's say I was in love with some man who
was not making as much money as me, or not
or not doesn't have a job. Even that the external
voice is telling me that's not okay, right, Even if
I wanted to provide for him or whatever, there's probably
going to be a lot of familial authority figures discouraging you,
as a woman from making that choice. So like, whenever
I talk on social media, for example, about how you know,

(13:20):
like love is about so much more than these parameters
that society lays out for you, I always say, like
billus and other things. But anyway, I really truly believe
that money is not going to that's it's not enough.

(13:41):
If you guys are motivated by you know, fancy things
or whatever, and you like that, okay, maybe it will
afford you a certain lifestyle, but money is not going
to be the secret source of a successful partnership on
a human level. And yet those voices will I mean,
I feel like we don't get to or follow their

(14:03):
heart quite as much as they might were these societal
forces not intervening, you know, and so much so actually
that even in a woman's own ambitiousness for herself, she
often has to factor this in, like in our society
to a great extent, like being married is your duty

(14:24):
as a woman, like the rent you must pay to
society if you want to exist as a woman. Now,
if your husband is less successful or less rich than you, somehow,
that is a blot on your report card, And so
what should you do? Then you must diminish your successes
or downplay them, or not even aspire to be too successful,

(14:46):
because it's a bigger blot on your report card to
have a husband less successful than you, or to not
have a husband at all. Then it is to be
a very successful woman, as like that gold star on
your report card.

Speaker 2 (14:57):
Right now, when you think that the psychology of that
how stuff is? That isn't it?

Speaker 3 (15:02):
Let me just start by talking about my parents itself,
right what you're talking about, especially from a man's perspective.
Now I look back, I'd never got time in my
father growing up, because he was always working, because his
job was to earn, and my mother's job was to nurture.
And that was the contract that every couple had during
that time, that the woman is the nurturer of the father,

(15:23):
the man is the provide. Now, I feel like I
was very angry with my father for the longest time
because he was just never around. He was always trying
to provide, right, he was always trying to earn. Even
when we had enough, he was still earning more because
that's what he felt his job was.

Speaker 4 (15:39):
And even when my.

Speaker 3 (15:40):
Mother did not need to notice anymore, when we were
independent young men, she still decided that that's all she
would do.

Speaker 4 (15:48):
She would just stay around and help us.

Speaker 3 (15:50):
And I feel like it was it was unfair to
both of them, you know, and it was unfair to us.
I don't think my mother. My mother is such a
credible talent. You know, she's very artistic. She loves she
can paint very easily, she does pottery, she does poetry.
She never got to she never got a chance to
flex these skills, okay, or go and make a living

(16:13):
out of this, you know. And she never got paid
for any of the work she did. Right when my
mother had to always take money from my father because
what is she earning? Right, But at the same time,
isn't raising a human being worth a certain.

Speaker 4 (16:30):
Kind of money.

Speaker 3 (16:31):
So at no point should we look at it and say, oh,
she was taking money from my father.

Speaker 4 (16:35):
No, she was not. My father got to work because
my mother was taking care of us.

Speaker 3 (16:40):
And in the same thing that any of the money,
any of the you know, the any income that she
was not making while she was raising us is an
income that she deserves. So if that income comes out
of the money that my father's earning for both of them,
that's absolutely fine. On the other hand, again I must say,
is I looked back and said, why didn't my father

(17:03):
not have time for us?

Speaker 4 (17:04):
Why was he always working? And it was? It made
me bitter, It made me angry for the longest time.

Speaker 3 (17:10):
Now that I look back, I'm just like, do I
not feel that my father would have also liked time
with me as much as I've liked with him. Maybe
he doesn't know how to articulate that, and he does not.
Maybe he doesn't have the emotional quotient to be able
to say it or express it out loud like many
men don't.

Speaker 4 (17:26):
And maybe he doesn't.

Speaker 3 (17:27):
At the same time, I look at him and I
feel like, wouldn't he have liked to.

Speaker 4 (17:33):
You know, hold me a little longer.

Speaker 3 (17:34):
Wouldn't he have liked to stay home for a week
and just spend that time with me because he you know,
I see him when we meet sometimes, and he has
these anecdotes of me growing up. And it's the same
for anecdotes. It's never a fifth one. My mother has
ten thousand, right, my father has the same for why
is that because he never got time to have the

(17:56):
fifth anecdote because he was always working. And I feel
like that's all burden we put on men that you
are saying. When we say that today that women can
both be providers and nurturers, we never say that men
can also be providers and nurturers.

Speaker 4 (18:09):
We still expect men to provide. We don't.

Speaker 3 (18:11):
There is not enough of an awareness, not enough of
a conversation about men being worth nurturers, like you've said,
Imagine on the other imagine, Lisa, if a husband, I mean,
if a partner hetero sexual couple gets married and it
is and they have a kid and the man says,
you know what, you go to work and I'm going
to stay at home. That is not something that a

(18:33):
society can look at and be like Oh that's cool.
That's not supposed to be cool. You know, it's almost
seen as why is the man not working? And this
is absolutely talking about in the father of in the
context of fatherhood. On the other hand, if there was
no child in play, and if it was just a
regular couple and the husband say or the man says,

(18:54):
I'm going to chill at home for a while, widn't
you go out and work and earn for it, It's
not it is going to be frowned upon, because that
is unfortunately the thing no today. Of course, it's the
choice of a woman to chi gets to choose whether
I mean again, I don't want to make it sound
like women have that level of agency.

Speaker 4 (19:11):
Of course they don't. But among those who have that agency,
you know, they get to choose whether they want to
provide a nurture. It's not the same for the man.

Speaker 2 (19:19):
I mean, I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
I think we all are ensnared by rigid and binary
gender expectationactly, you know, I think women have been sort
of harm Women and queer people are harmed by traditional
gender expectations disproportionately, and so they tend to be leading
the activism around dismantling them unfortunately, Like you're one of

(19:41):
the few men I know.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
Who's doing the work to question masculinity.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
Sadly, so many men aren't even willing to consider themselves
capable of being nurturing, or consider being nurturing is something
worth investing time and mind space and like doing that work,
whereas I think so many women are doing that work
of like figuring out how they can be financially independent

(20:07):
all the things they were denied a possibility to, right,
Like if men's emotional lives have been historically and systemically stunted,
just as women's financial and professional and sexual agency has
been historically and systemically stunted, I feel like, unfortunately, men
think this serves them and they don't do enough. They

(20:29):
think they have to share their power now or something,
because women also want to be working and dating and
doing whatever they want to, not realizing that patriarchy came
at a cost also to men. I know that you
know this deeply and are doing all this work to
transpread the word, but too many men are also, I think,
often deluded by the history or whatever to believe that

(20:53):
this serves them. That like, it is not manly to
change and happy. I know parents my generation, men who
have never changed their kids, typers.

Speaker 2 (21:03):
You know, I know so many who and take pride
in it like I would never do that.

Speaker 3 (21:07):
I still go into people's home sometimes, and even now,
you know, progressive couples, people that I am friends with,
and whenever it is about, whenever time comes to bring
in the snacks, it's always the woman going to the kitchen.

Speaker 4 (21:20):
And I'm still surprised.

Speaker 3 (21:22):
I still cannot believe that we as you know, progressive
people in a city like Mumbai, you know, the men
are still sitting around when the woman goes to serve.

Speaker 4 (21:33):
I don't get it.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
And so like when you say this thing about women
have the choice or agency to both be you know,
breadwinners and nurturers or something, I think do they because
to a great extent, what happens now is okay, So
if you have the choice to work, you're supposed to
go do your work, be the boss lady or whatever,

(21:56):
lady bass or boss, you know, like discarding those terms.
But it was glamorized, right, the per career woman. But
then come home and do the unpaid labor as well.
So you're not actually you're getting this rawdy, you know,
if we have it all if you do it all right, correct,
and then many I mean today still have friends again,
same level of privilege, and I acknowledge how much privilege

(22:18):
I have where they're like my in.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
Laws allow me to work.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
I'm so great, you know, like applause for these crumbs.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
Allow me to work? Like what is the phrase?

Speaker 4 (22:29):
Let me let me rephrase this and try to let
me rephrase this and try to explain where I'm.

Speaker 2 (22:33):
Coming I get where you're coming from. I'm just also
where is exactly absolutely, and.

Speaker 3 (22:41):
Unfortunately some have assumed and I get so worried when
that happens.

Speaker 4 (22:44):
Because I'm like, no, my friend, I am very much.

Speaker 3 (22:46):
A feminist, Let me explain what I'm talking about, right,
because there is this is about We're talking about patriarchy,
right right. Patriarchy works in a way where it is
it benefits ment but oppresses everyone exact. That's the thing,
and that's the thing that we don't realize enough. And
men are are conditioned so deeply that they can't even

(23:11):
imagine a world where they can be nurturing.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
Right.

Speaker 3 (23:15):
I'm talking about this right now because I have been
the other side. And then I was diagnosed with clinical
anxiety and then I took a lot of therapy, and
now I've reached a place where I realized that me
not taking care of my mental, physical, emotional health for
the longest time was the reason that I've got diagnosed
with mental health issues. And had I been given an
opportunity growing up to be a little bit nurturing to myself,

(23:36):
forget to anybody else, if I had the if I
had the understanding or the privilege of that awareness that
as a man, I could also give myself love, you know,
And my job and my life wasn't just meant to
be about earning money. It wasn't just seen as a
return on investment for my parents, you know, putting in

(23:58):
money on me, punting on me to make sure that
some point that I earn a certain kinnd of money
and then bring it back to my family, et cetera,
et cetera. But I didn't have that understanding, right And
I'm just saying that, you know, what is happening right now,
and that's what I see, and a lot of a
lot of it has gone into dangerous.

Speaker 4 (24:14):
Territory, which I which really worries me.

Speaker 3 (24:16):
The territory being that the conversation that we are having
about patriarchy, and the conversation we typically have have about
gender right now is that and this is and I'm
putting the onus very much also on men. So this
is not just a this is not at all a
women thing, right It is that you know, women can

(24:37):
be anything that they want to be, but men can
men be anything they want to be?

Speaker 4 (24:43):
That's a question.

Speaker 3 (24:44):
And when I say anything they want to me, I
don't mean in terms of admission or in mean in
terms of success.

Speaker 4 (24:49):
Absolutely, that's who they are they are taking.

Speaker 3 (24:51):
I mean, men run like ninety percent of the world,
right they are in all positions of power. I'm typically
and specifically talking about men having the agency to not
choose to do that, to earn a little lesser than
they want to, so that they can also have some
time offer themselves or to be a father, or to
be a son, or to be a husband, or to
be a brother, which is not a conversation we are

(25:13):
having as a society, and that is damaging, you know, anecdotally,
I don't know what is happening right now, but I
don't know if you've also heard of this anecdotally, Lisa,
I have been hearing so many men who just having
heart attacks over the last three four years, you know.
I mean, some of it might be linked to COVID,
but I'm now hearing about forty to forty five fifty
year old men, so many anecdotal things of just them,

(25:35):
you know, getting heart attacks and passing out, and they
physically fit emotion. But I feel like, because emotions are
so caught up and we are so tense inside of us,
that at some point of time, every man bursts, whether
that you know, in our parents generation, that burst would
happen as domestic violence, it would happen as you know, anger,
It would happen as hitting your kids, it would happen

(25:56):
as alcohol, it would happen as sometimes even you know,
just harassment to others, you know, and it could mean
sexual harassment. Because they didn't have any way inside to
even express any iota what they were going through.

Speaker 4 (26:10):
And I'm not justifying or you know, men's actions. I'm
literally telling you.

Speaker 3 (26:14):
That this is the reason why for the longest time,
they had so much inside of them and no way
of expressing what they do that it typically.

Speaker 4 (26:21):
Weighed into evil, negative angry territory.

Speaker 3 (26:25):
And today, while they might not do any of these things,
they just keep everything inside. They don't take therapy, they
don't go to men, they don't have mental health conversations,
and ultimately end up just.

Speaker 4 (26:35):
Suddenly dropping dead.

Speaker 3 (26:36):
And that's the danger that we have of patriarchy and
not having conversations where we also talk about men recognizing
for themselves, not just women doing that job, or not
just men telling women or women telling women, but everybody
telling men. For God's sake, stop just looking at yourselves
as providers. Please, for God's sake, also recognize that nurturing
is just an important part of any human being.

Speaker 4 (26:57):
It's not just a man of women thing. It's a
human thing.

Speaker 3 (27:01):
And until we recognize that, we are putting a danger
to ourselves and to society because men will continue being angry,
and unfortunately in today's time, because people like Andrew Date
and people.

Speaker 4 (27:12):
Who are m A activists.

Speaker 3 (27:14):
You know, they tell these men, the reason you are
not getting to do anything else apart from our money
is because of women. Because women are the one who
are taking this away from you. You know, they are
not giving you the opportunity to be somebody else. But
that's not true at all.

Speaker 4 (27:26):
You are not doing it the world.

Speaker 3 (27:28):
Who do women want gender equality from it's from men,
it's from each other.

Speaker 4 (27:32):
Men have taken it away. But if you have two equality,
men also get empowered to be kinder, to be more empathetic,
to be more nurturing, to be to have more self care,
to give themselves more time.

Speaker 1 (27:45):
I think that men themselves, unfortunately, are reluctant to listen
or partake.

Speaker 2 (27:53):
You know, how much can the.

Speaker 4 (27:54):
It's so deeply conditioned.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
How much can you tell them they don't if they're
not ready to hear.

Speaker 4 (28:00):
Yeah, it was very much me.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
I was.

Speaker 3 (28:03):
You know, my brother let me just when I was
growing up. My brother was very still is very sensitive, right.
He had a lot of mental health issues at a
very young age.

Speaker 4 (28:14):
He was he.

Speaker 3 (28:17):
Was just a sensitive kid. So he had a better
understanding of empathy than I ever did. I was not
a good brother growing up. I was very My father
was always outside, so I assumed the role of a
father when it came to my brother, and I was
toxic to him. So all the talk of kindness and
empathy that I do right now, I was the opposite.

Speaker 4 (28:34):
When I was growing up. I would tell my brother
when he would get bullied by you know, older kids,
that I would.

Speaker 3 (28:40):
Hit the kids because as a young older brother, that's
what I thought. My job was to protect my brother.
And then I would hit my brother and I tell him,
why can't you stand up for yourself? Why can't you
be man enough? That was the kind of person I was.
And my brother would tell me that that's not my job.
You know, they shouldn't be bullying me. I shouldn't have
to stand up for it, right. And I used to
always look at him and be like, oh my god,
he just you know what today we call beta man

(29:03):
or Sigma man or whatever. I would look at him
and judge him and be like, you know, until you
grow up, until you have balls, until you're match enough,
you will you'll not be able to survive. It's only
after I was I broke one day and I was
diagnosed with clinical anxiety did my journey of having that
empathy start.

Speaker 4 (29:20):
It's so deeply conditioned. Gender patriarchy is so deeply conditioned
inside of us, this lust for power. I don't understand power.
Why are we always what do we get after being powerful?
Look at them power, You're missing it. I'm going to

(29:41):
go on a yeah, we're missing out on.

Speaker 3 (29:42):
So much love and joy in this world as men
in this in this stupid race to kind of be
the most superior.

Speaker 4 (29:50):
Being on the planet. What you get out of it.

Speaker 3 (29:52):
How much money is enough money? How much success is
enough success? How many houses is enough houses. I know
friends of mine, you know, who have bought this sixth house,
but they don't have you know. But they've also never
been able to stick with one partner. They're like, you know,
late thirties, early forties, they're not getting married because they don't,
you know. And it's not that they don't want to.

(30:13):
They want to, they just haven't found anybody because and
I know why, because they're spending all the time and
just earning that money and buying forty houses.

Speaker 4 (30:21):
Kagarlu Is needs you know. I don't earn at that
same level as them.

Speaker 3 (30:26):
But I've had a you know, very successful touchboard marriages,
you know, many years, and I've been with my partner
and I've had a I've had good and bad days
in my marriage. But I have somebody to come home to.
And that is a true joy at the end of
a hard day at work, no matter what you're earning,
coming back home to a person who cares about you,
who care who you care about.

Speaker 4 (30:45):
Those are things we don't talk about as men.

Speaker 3 (30:48):
All the men podcasts are just about hustle and about
success and about you know, here's how much you need
to earn. Here's what you can do to earn the
maximount of money. Where is that conversation about that? Yes,
earn that money, what.

Speaker 4 (31:00):
Do you do with it? You are only using it
to buy products.

Speaker 3 (31:05):
You're not using it to enhance the comfort and convenience
of not just your life, but the lives of the
people you love and who love you.

Speaker 4 (31:12):
Are we having these conversations or I get very like.

Speaker 1 (31:16):
Love that you are deeply passionate, And actually, I think
what would be helpful also is like we've identified some
of the problems, but how can we also perhaps try
to point people towards the tools or the solutions. Like
you said, you've made that journey yourself. I know you
said it also took a significant mental health event to
like jold you into doing the in a work, I suppose,

(31:38):
But let's say we want to prevent people from having
to get to that point before they and most people
don't even get to you know, sometimes a massive event
can inspire change, and sometimes it doesn't. And you just
go back to it. So how can we perhaps point
people who might be interested in re examining the unders

(32:00):
standing in masculinity with, you know, with practical tools that
may be helped you, so.

Speaker 2 (32:06):
That they can step away.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
From some of these pitfalls and hope for a more
fulfilling and expansive attitude in their relationship.

Speaker 4 (32:15):
See, I honestly think that the men need to take
that onnus right. We have always, as men again put
the emotional burden on women to take care of men.
This whole idea of fixing men. You know, even when
you look.

Speaker 3 (32:30):
At fiction, romantic fiction, literary fiction, so much of it
is really about the women finding a man to fix.
You know, I will fix him, I will help him.
I will be the one who care takes for him.
But we as men need to take care of each other.
And when I say that, I mean I've always felt
this very strongly. Men can go to war for each other,

(32:51):
but they.

Speaker 4 (32:51):
Can't cry in front of each other. I have just
think about it.

Speaker 3 (32:57):
Have I can't imagine a scenario in which I need
to break down and I go to a male friend
to do that. You know, I will either go to
my mother or I will go to my partner, or
if I did not have either of them, then maybe
I'll try to find a female friend, because that understanding
is that they have a lot more empathy and a
lot more softness and gentleness to be able to not

(33:18):
judge me. On the other hand, I feel like men
are also capable of that. We don't give each other chances.
We judge each other and a dvance so much that
we always feel like I judge correct, then he will
make fun of me, which also is true. We have
seen that, you know, crying or emotional durists is seen
as a sign of weakness among men.

Speaker 4 (33:40):
But we need to change that. We need to change
the attitude.

Speaker 3 (33:43):
We need to get to a place where we can
create more spaces among each other as men help each other,
you know, in times of duress, you know when somebody
is not going through a phase intron of making fun
of each other, just being like, hey, are you okay?

Speaker 4 (33:56):
Can I do something for you? Can I do you
want to hug? How many? You know?

Speaker 3 (34:00):
We spoke about this on my show Knuckle and I
spoke about this is you know how when we hug
our mothers, it's an all income, it's an all encompassing hug.

Speaker 4 (34:12):
It's a hug that kind of you know, takes in
the whole of.

Speaker 3 (34:16):
The body of your mother. Right, it's like, you're my mother,
I care about you, I love you. But when it's
when you're hunging up fathers, it's almost like tap tap
tap up and it's done. We don't know how to
have physical intimacy with each other. Men holding hands is
still seen as deeply weired. Men kissing each other kissing,
I mean and literally on the cheeks is seen as

(34:38):
deeply weared.

Speaker 4 (34:39):
Unless you are an extremely progressive.

Speaker 3 (34:41):
You know person, it's seen as, wow, there's something Why
are you giving a kiss to your.

Speaker 4 (34:46):
Friend, he's a man. We need to break those gender norms.
We need to create these safe spaces among men.

Speaker 3 (34:54):
And that's what I'm even trying to do with my show, right,
I'm trying to give that perception that it's two men
can sit with each other and be vulnerable and be
emotional and that's okay, and.

Speaker 4 (35:04):
That's completely fine. If we support each.

Speaker 3 (35:07):
Other, perhaps we will allow spaces for each other, which
then we can take to other places. If men have
empathy for themselves, then they will also be able to
have empathy for everybody else around them.

Speaker 4 (35:20):
So I want men to take that onus.

Speaker 3 (35:22):
I want men to recognize that it is on us
to help ourselves and to help other men.

Speaker 4 (35:27):
Let's not put it on women. For God's sake, let's
not put it on women.

Speaker 3 (35:30):
I'm going to I know that I've been saying really
long answers, but I'm going to give you one. You know,
there's this I met this one kid, you know, recently
who came to me, and this kid was He says that,
you know, I was, I had a girlfriend, and you know,
I have a lot inside of me, and I was

(35:53):
I had a lot of emotions, and at one point,
I just you know, started telling her every day what
I was going through. And for a few days she
listened to me, and then she just blocked me. You know,
I mean I just lost her. And then she said
that I can't just continually listen to you. You know,
I don't know what to do right now. And you know,
I felt like I only had that one person, and
you know, she turned out to be.

Speaker 4 (36:11):
A and I was okay.

Speaker 3 (36:14):
So then I sat him and through I listened to him,
and I said, first of all, the characterization that you're
doing as a very uncool and very unfair and don't.

Speaker 4 (36:22):
Talk about women. And this one number one? Number two?
How many times have you expressed what you have gone
through to the men in your life?

Speaker 3 (36:29):
And then he took a pause and he says, I
have it? Said why not? He's like, you know, they
won't understand. I was like, and you've chosen one woman.

Speaker 4 (36:38):
You had one girlfriend, and the thing that you did
was every single day you would go and dump your
emotions only on her. Do you think it's fair on her?

Speaker 3 (36:47):
If I become your very dear friend and every day
I just come and talk about how much I'm going
through only to you and only to you, and I'm
not spreading it out to five different people, would it
be fair to you? And he said no, not really.
A said exactly, my friend, she's not a bad person.
You know, you have chosen to put your nenti emotional
burden on one human being and that is not fair

(37:09):
to them. Instead of looking at that perspective, you are
saying she's a burden.

Speaker 4 (37:13):
You know, she didn't listen to me and she broke
my heart. No, she did not.

Speaker 3 (37:16):
You decided to use her almost as a human guinea
pig for just dump your emotions. And I'm not saying
don't tell you emotions to the women in your life,
please do, but also tell it to the men in
your life. Also tell it to other people who your brother,
tell it to your father, Tell it not just to
the women, because that's how you're going to be fair,
and that's how you're also giving the opportunity to the

(37:37):
other men also to step up for you.

Speaker 4 (37:39):
We don't give them that opportunity.

Speaker 3 (37:40):
We are always constantly could say, don't say, they'll say,
that's what we need to do.

Speaker 2 (37:50):
I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
I also think that perhaps it would be beneficial to
see relationships as an end in themselves than a means
to an end. Like I noticed that a lot of
men are socialized into seeing everything as in terms of
like what am I getting out of this transaction?

Speaker 2 (38:08):
You know what am I getting out of this?

Speaker 1 (38:10):
So and anyway, when kind of the stigma around you know,
talking to women unless your family has approved of it,
et cetera, that you can even get in trouble, right,
just like a boy and a girl having anything to
do with each other is perceived of in a certain light.
As a result, of which most men don't know how
to relate to women other than as a romantic partner,

(38:32):
like a lot of men don't have female friends or
don't even think they're worth their time, like if you're
not if they're not either working with you or you're
or sleeping with you, Like best money or sex has
to be coming out of every relationship you have in
your life. Otherwise there's no why would you waste your time?
This idea of like connection or just shared acknowledgment of

(38:53):
humanity or some sort of you know, spirit or so
related activity going on instead of a tangible transactional activity
is one that men not have to reject as if
it's not.

Speaker 3 (39:07):
And also I would say, you're so right, And I
also feel like this is also the fault.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
Of other men, right exactly.

Speaker 4 (39:12):
I remember in k.

Speaker 3 (39:15):
Is A it's such a deeply h patiacal place that
any boy who was talking to any girl for any
amount of time, they would immediately next the be rumors
that oh they are something going on between them, and
it would immediately and it was never innocent rumors. It
wasn't just the fact that I'm going to say this

(39:35):
on camera because I just want to bring to light
how when I look back, how deeply uncomfortable with it was.
But the term given to us for any boy who
has a healthy friendship with the girl also was cc.
CC in English meant don't if I'm allowed to tell,
I mean, I'll say. In English it was it seemed

(39:57):
innocent enough, chick chaser.

Speaker 4 (39:59):
In hind it meant this is.

Speaker 3 (40:03):
The term that was given to any man who would
even talk to women. I didn't know what CC meant
till the longest time, because I was like, who's easy,
Because I was like, I'm just having avenges with girl,
that's your thing. And then somebody told me it's not
just dick chaser. That's the English school term that you mean.
This is what they mean, you know.

Speaker 4 (40:24):
And it was always seen as this is what you
do if you're talking.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
It's sad that that's the worst insult they could come
up with.

Speaker 1 (40:29):
It sounds like a compliment to me, I mean, you know,
but you know what I mean that also, every insult
men use against another man has some sort of like
deep misogyny and a woman's body part or mother sister,
some kind of you know.

Speaker 3 (40:46):
And and and the judgment that and the aspersion that
you know, by being someone who is being Let's even
assume that what they mean here is that you.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
Are bending your backround with the words simp yeah, simp correct, right,
that's like a vulgar word for simp yeah.

Speaker 4 (41:06):
Absolutely. You know, the idea being that if you're being
kind to.

Speaker 3 (41:10):
Women, or even if you are, if you're having any
kind of relationship with a woman, whether it is friendship,
whether it is you know, a relationship, it always means
you are giving some part of yourself away. You are
being less of a man by being this.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
Person, by seeing women as human beings.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
You see men do that to eat, like literally make
fun of each other for seeing a woman as a
human being instead of a whole you know, which is crazy,
but it still happens. And so I really appreciate that
you acknowledge that so often men are their own obstacle
in this sort of trajectory to a more intellectually and
emotionally fulfilling life.

Speaker 3 (41:49):
Yeah, and you know it would it would also make
you reconsider your friendships. You know, you would then be like,
when you're constantly being made fun of for being CC,
you start thinking that.

Speaker 4 (42:01):
Should I really be seen with girls?

Speaker 3 (42:04):
In public as much because they were school college magazines
we had, Okay, so it was it was like printed
on the walls.

Speaker 4 (42:11):
My name came in a magazine as number one CC
because I had like four female friends. And that's what
I'm coming from.

Speaker 3 (42:17):
You know, it becomes so difficult for men who to
be to have these kind of regular friendships with women,
purely because of how other men judge. I'm going to
tell you one last incident, and I know I'm just
going on and on, but like I spoke to someone
very recently who is a very well known I don't

(42:39):
want to get into who she is, but it's a
she's a very uh, she's.

Speaker 4 (42:43):
A very good position in life.

Speaker 3 (42:45):
Her husband was and she's got a very good job
for which she had to move a country and her
husband decided to support her career because she's doing such
a fantastic job in the world that she's doing.

Speaker 4 (42:55):
It was a huge opportunity for her.

Speaker 3 (42:57):
And I would imagine if anybody else would be her
husband would als will say, yeah, yeah, this is such
an incredible job. I would also do the same. She
told me very recently that I met her. She told
me that when her husband decided to quit his job
and quit the country that they were living in and
join her in the second country. She's like on every
Instagram post and every Facebook post that they made for
the next one year after that. His friends were his

(43:19):
childhood friends since then who were with him in the
last job, would constantly comment on that picture, saying things like, oh,
do you get time from being from washing your wife's brass?

Speaker 4 (43:30):
Did you get time to push this? Put this up
while doing laundry for your wife? You're for cooking for
your wife, almost seeming it like it's a shameful thing
to do that.

Speaker 3 (43:38):
How dare you, as a man, quit your job to
support your wife's career?

Speaker 4 (43:43):
How could you even do that?

Speaker 3 (43:45):
So that's where you I mean was talking about this
idea of being empathetic or nurturing men have. It's so
deeply deeply gendered and so deeply patriarchal that.

Speaker 4 (43:54):
All of us have.

Speaker 3 (43:55):
We can't even see any other man being nurturing. That
is seen as an insight to all of masculinity. How
dare you take a decision to leave your job to
support your wife?

Speaker 4 (44:07):
That makes you less for man? This is the world
we live in.

Speaker 3 (44:10):
How do we try to have more sensitive conversations around gender.

Speaker 4 (44:14):
How do we bring more men into this conversation?

Speaker 3 (44:17):
If this is how men are with each other, you know,
forget how they're with women, which is also terribly deeply misogynistic.

Speaker 4 (44:23):
Man, I'm not even kind to.

Speaker 2 (44:24):
Each other exactly exactly.

Speaker 1 (44:27):
I think that the fact that you are holding other
men accountable having these conversations, like really doing what you're
doing with.

Speaker 2 (44:36):
Other men is something I wish more men would do. Like,
there's such a lack of role.

Speaker 1 (44:39):
Models, you know, and people need role models, right like
who is the house husband that we can think of
right now? Who is the deeply empathetic dad who's decided
to also take time off work or you know, figure
it out in such a way that they can participate
and change those diapers and have an emotional relationship with
their child. I can't think of anybody, neither famous nor

(45:01):
privately who other than you. Maybe who's who's like talking
the talk and living this?

Speaker 2 (45:07):
You know? And so I mean, are there any am
I missing? Any remore? Like can we share any role
models with young men?

Speaker 4 (45:15):
Hoping? I love Knuckle Meta. I think he's such a wonderful,
wonderful feminist, vulnerable emotional man. He's a very dear friend.
I love him to death. I think he's.

Speaker 3 (45:24):
Again someone who even in my shoes, spoke about it.
When he became a father, he took time off to
just be a father, and while other people just could
not understand that, he says, I got a lot of
pushback from folks in the industry, saying, we have rules
for you, why you're not doing them? We can't wait
endlessly for you to do your roles. And he would
just tell them that do you not understand that the

(45:46):
role I'm doing right now, which is that of a father,
is the most important role that I'm doing in my life?

Speaker 4 (45:51):
Why is that so difficult to understand? Another man who
I really look up to, Girala, who's again.

Speaker 3 (45:57):
You know, just such a present father to his children,
such a beautiful, beautiful person in the way that he
and I know that there are a lot more men
right now who are going on that path, who are
willing to, you know, overcome the discomfort that sometimes comes
with the fact that this is a call that I'm

(46:17):
making for a certain amount of time, not earning a
certain amount of money for a certain amount of time,
being okay with whatever the society judges is to be
to do this job.

Speaker 4 (46:28):
Not everyone can be as.

Speaker 3 (46:30):
Emotionally vulnerable as you know, as them, or you know
as for that matter, even I'm very open with my vulnerability.
So I really deeply admire everybody, and I feel like
I know there are a lot more men. But it's
also difficult to talk about these things because the more
you make these things public.

Speaker 4 (46:46):
The more you open yourself up for judgment.

Speaker 3 (46:48):
So I know, women who tell me that their husbands
are sometimes like I just had a conversation with someone,
you know, these are conversations have so much and so often.
I just had a conversation with someone who said that,
you know, my husband is the primary contact in this
children's school, and.

Speaker 4 (47:05):
They're like, the school just didn't understand that for the
longest time that the you know, he works from home
and she goes to office and because of that, he
was the primary number on the children's phone for school.
But the school anytime there was an issue with the children,
which still call.

Speaker 3 (47:22):
The mom because again the idea is that the mom
should be taking the burden of the children and it
cannot be shared responsibility. Can you imagine again, just she's
like I had to tell them twenty times, please call
the dad. He's also the parent. And it's the same thing.
You know, when you have all these groups for children,

(47:43):
men are not there. It's typically women who are you know,
on those WhatsApp group for what is happening with the children.
I know Varuna is one of the red dads who's
on such a group. I know Nicole is one of
the rare people who tells me that they are on
groups like this and they are some of the fewest
men there. I myself right now find myself is really
odd in in very odd situations.

Speaker 4 (48:01):
Where you know, I'm on the board of a.

Speaker 3 (48:05):
Of an educational nonprofit called Girl Rising. There are thirteen
women on that and there's only me as one man.
I was in New York recently for United Nations Journalissemily
Week and we had a lot of gender conversations. There
was one dinner that I went to which is on gender,
thirty women and me as the only man.

Speaker 4 (48:21):
You know, same, I'm kind of noticing this as a pattern.

Speaker 3 (48:25):
I'm not saying that I'm I'm the role model or
I'm very grateful that I get to be included in
this conversation. But Lisa can you imagine the fact that
we are not even as a society trying to find
other men to include in these conversations. My propaganda in
my show is to create these role models, even if
they're not. I know that woman is a really nice guy.

(48:46):
As an example, he would not be the person that
most people would think to call on a show like
mine to have a conversation on gender. But I do
believe he's a genuine person. And unless I pull him
in and say, your voice also matters. Until I pulled
Zak and say your voice matters, Jaki, and I know
you have a very healthy relationships with your female friends.
I want you to talk about that on the show,

(49:07):
because that's how other boys who look up to you
will get inspired, you know, to get a Javit Saba
Nasiza to have super incredibly feminist conversations. That's the propaganda,
you know. I know that there are men like that.
We just don't look up to them as role models
for gender because they don't talk about these subjects. And
I also feel it's because nobody asks them enough. And
we also need to now ask the men. We need

(49:29):
to hold the men in our lives to a higher
bar and say, talk about you're a decent person, talk
about gender. Let's not shy away, talk about why you're
a feminist, talk about why you care about the women
in your life, why you worship the women in your life.
Vicki Koschel on the you know, talking about Katrina in
the way he did on my show, where he literally
said that I can't believe I get to be her husband.

(49:51):
I can't believe she chooses. I know every day, what
a privilege it is to.

Speaker 4 (49:55):
Be called Katrina's husband. What a beautiful, beautiful thing to say.

Speaker 3 (49:59):
You know, that's the kind of masculinity which I find
so reassuring, so gentle, so kind, so beautiful, and that's
what we need more in the world of But we
need to include those men, and I think that's a
job for everybody. I don't think that's just a man's job.
I would also say I've been advocating for it in
all the gender cohorts that I'm in.

Speaker 4 (50:19):
Bring more men. We need you.

Speaker 3 (50:21):
We keep talking about wanting gender equality, but if it's
only a conversation that women are having with each other,
you know, we will not get to equality. Men need
to be involved in the conversation around gender unequivocal, and
we need to bring them in, even if that means
forcing them in.

Speaker 4 (50:38):
Sometimes.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
Yeah, well, I hope more men come in voluntarily after
listening to this conversation, because no, truly though they should
come in. You know, often I do think that even
when invited, men think of women's rights queer rights as.

Speaker 2 (50:55):
Some other people's issue.

Speaker 1 (50:56):
I know, you know, and make so how am I
so you press me. I'm trying to do the work
to overcome that oppression. I'm trying to make you aware
of how it's suppressing you too. But you know, soon
after like pull you into the room, like come in, Okay,
this is an open invitation to men listening, come in,
have these conversations.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
Rather than being hard, come in.

Speaker 1 (51:16):
The door is open, you know, instead of spewing andrew
date in my comments like that. It's how come it's
so easy for the men to say the you know,
anti feminist stuff. No one needs to invite them there.
But I wish that men would just partake. So I
think what they're doing is as promising, and I feel

(51:36):
like we shouldn't have to bear the like why must
men need an invitation? Just come if you want to
do something, your gender equality come. It's like the world
is your oyster?

Speaker 3 (51:48):
Can you ask you, Lisa, because I know that you
also do a lot of work in this space. Also,
I'm just very curious to know. Have you seen any
best practices of how men get involved, any examples that
you can give us. You know, something that you've seen
that has that you look at as an as a
great case study that you know, this is what you know.

Speaker 4 (52:08):
I was able to see and I found it very
positive and lovely.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
I think that men afraid of what other men will
think of them. That's the biggest thing that prevents them
from publicly partaking, you know, Like, why can't I think
of a male version of me on Instagram?

Speaker 2 (52:22):
Right, there's no.

Speaker 1 (52:23):
I say I have small boobs and like I was
conscious of that growing up or whatever, and I'm cool
with it. Can you imagine a man being like, I
have a small penis and like, I'm okay with that.
At least in India. I don't know a single creator.
I don't know if there's someone in the other parts
of the world doing that, but I think in general
they're afraid of what other men will say. I get
women in my comments being like, yes, queen right, even

(52:44):
I have small boobs or like, my big boobs may
make conscious or whatever like so much, so much resonance,
solidarity and support from women in the comments. Even men
in the comments will be like this, maybe sometimes say
something encouraging. Normally they'll object if I say something silly
like yes, you look like a flat screen TV.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
And what if I don't let people comments bother me?
Be under point?

Speaker 1 (53:01):
But I think that men are their own worst enemy
in a way, or their own worst obstacle. Where in
my DMS, the number of men who say, I hope
my like I have so many insecurities about my ability
to please a woman, or whether I'm attractive, or how
I'm going to perform in the bedroom. The insecurities men
are willing to share with a woman privately in her DMS,

(53:22):
versus the projection that they feel they must upkeep in
public forums such as comments or in a room full
of people or whatever.

Speaker 2 (53:30):
There's such a dissonance, you know. So I know privately
men want.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
To be able to be vulnerable, but they refuse to
do that work visibly. And so then how do I
help you? I mean, is it my work to be
a therapist?

Speaker 4 (53:44):
No?

Speaker 2 (53:44):
Right. I love that.

Speaker 1 (53:46):
You're say inviting men in saying men have to hold
each other accountable. And I hope that you can do
this publicly because other men need to see you if
you're all too scared to do the work publicly, proudly
and put your name to your insecurity instead of pretending
you have none and on sliding into my dms like, do.

Speaker 2 (54:04):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (54:04):
The change could be so much quicker and so much
more sort of collective if men were willing instead of
having to be pulled in, if men were not coming
in each other's way as much, you know, because I
think women are very supportive of men for the most
part when they're open about their vulnerabilities. I don't think
women would shame that man in his comments Avis that

(54:26):
have a small pinis so I don't make enough money
or whatever I think women like, okay, it's okay, you know,
whereas I think other men would make fun of I mean,
of course this is hard to generalize, but do.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (54:35):
I think so often women are afraid of men, and
men are afraid of men because men cause harm, which
is so unfortunate. And I make a gross generalization there
but that's the crux of the patriarchy.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
No one, we had, no one better, no one.

Speaker 4 (54:48):
You know.

Speaker 3 (54:49):
There was a comment exchange when on the show you
spoke off how women are you know?

Speaker 4 (54:54):
You spoke about the harm.

Speaker 3 (54:55):
You said, the biggest thing that women are scared of
men are scared off is that you'll have a bad
The biggest thing that women are scared they get killed.
And there was a lot of comments exchange over there,
and I also wrote, because I was so angry, there's
a couple of people who started writing shit on that comment,
and there's a real that you had put it that
went viral. And the biggest thing was that men are

(55:15):
also getting afraid of getting killed. How could you generalize
and say that only men cause of men also are victims?
And then I had to really jump in and say,
but who kills you? That's also other men?

Speaker 4 (55:27):
Exactly, if you feel also unsafe on roads, who are
you afraid of? That's also other men.

Speaker 3 (55:32):
You're not afraid of women on the roads, You're also
afraid of other men. So why is it so hard
for us to acknowledge that, yes, men are you know,
men are victims, men are survivors of assault.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
I love that we both come from deep love.

Speaker 1 (55:46):
I love we really want the best men, and I'm
sorry we obviously feel very passionate about this subject. I
was supposed to talk about money and relationships. There's really
like so many things came up, but clearly we have
an issue here, right, And so I think I.

Speaker 4 (56:03):
Also want to say, by the way, that you like
you spoke about the DM thing.

Speaker 3 (56:07):
Even for my show. Most of the kindest comments that
I get from men are in dms, not on the
public comments. With public comments, it's mostly women. It's just
such a it's so simple a divide to see that
men are typically saying nice things also only in the
dams whecaus women are all commenting on it publicly. I'm
not again generalizing, there are a lot of men who

(56:28):
also write public comments.

Speaker 4 (56:29):
But I just see the divide.

Speaker 3 (56:30):
It's just so strange to me that why is it
that men are not even as open to be able
to see. I love this show. I loved everything about
this show. Just see it out loud.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
Thank care, Yeah, Nikol has been such an interesting conversation.

Speaker 2 (56:42):
They literally had to tell us to stop talking.

Speaker 1 (56:45):
Thank you so much. But joining me today and I
really really hope that we can all invite more men
into this idea of a truly equal gender landscape.

Speaker 2 (56:56):
So thank you, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
I hope that everyone who in enjoyed this conversation as
much as we did, and I also want to get
Nikkel to share where you can find more of his work.

Speaker 3 (57:07):
I want to also say that I am typically the
person who's the listener in my show, and just to
have someone like you to listen and the space that
you create, Lisa, is the reason that I'm able to
feel so safe to talk about these things so passionately.
So thank you for having me and for creating this lovely,
lovely space. My show is called Biamnyar. It's on YouTube,

(57:28):
dot com, slash via Yuba. It's a show on positive masculinity.
We call a lot of iconic men and have conversations
around gender, feminism, mental health therapy with them.

Speaker 4 (57:38):
You might enjoy it.

Speaker 1 (57:39):
Please watch, definitely go watch, and please also continue to
watch Love Matters.

Speaker 2 (57:46):
Would Love Matters is produced by.

Speaker 1 (57:49):
The Indian Express and the w Germany's international broadcaster, and
as promised at the beginning of the show, we are
going to be reading some of your comments and reviews
at the end of each episode. So today I want
to read out what Somya Ashali Gupta said at the
end of Anishka Wandi's episode on what it is like
to love men. Soamia says I felt very safe listening

(58:10):
to the entire conversation, open minded and judgment free. Thank
you DW and Indian Express for such awesome work. Thank
you Sonya for sharing your feedback with us. We're so
glad you enjoyed the episode and we would love for
more of you to share your thoughts as well. Please
do rate and review us wherever you're listening, like Share, subscribe,

(58:30):
send this episode to the men in your lives. Till
next time. This is me, Lisa Mangeldas signing off. I
believe love matters.