Chris Stamey - "It's Alright" - Major Label Debut

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
It's major label debut, the podcast about major label debuts.
My name is Graham Wright. Recently, on this very podcast feed,
I was trying to talk about the difference between songs
and records, a song being sort of, you know, what
you could write down in sheet music, the melody and
the chords, the words, if there are any, and a

(00:29):
record being the recorded version of a song. I find
myself increasingly fascinated by the way those things are different
and the same, and the way they cross pollinate, and
just the way that the existence of records, which of
course is what we talk about on this podcast, has
changed how songs are even conceived of in the first place.
Many is the musician I know who has gotten so

(00:50):
deep into the world of like demoing on the computer,
of making writing a song, by creating a record that
they've decided, oh, I need to stop all of this
and only work in voice memos and with my acoustic
guitar or with my piano, because I'm missing the forest
for the trees. I'm so caught up in the arrangement
and the tones and the sounds of the recording that
I'm forgetting to finish writing the song. It's a constant

(01:14):
struggle and a constant part of the process when you
make records for a living, and today on the show
we have someone who knows about both.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
Confusion is the order here. You're not invited to be clear,
to stop this struggle, to explains back again, just want
to look in.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
Chris Stamey as an artist has been in the DB's
one of the great power pop bands of all time.
He is a solo artist who has a major label debut,
which we are here to talk about today. It's called
It's all Right. It came out in nineteen eighty seven
on A and M Records. Chris is also a really
accomplished producer who's made records with the likes of Whiskey Town, Yola,

(02:13):
Tengo Letigra. Chris has a production credit on Decepticon, one
of the single coolest records ever made. And we didn't
even talk about that. That's how much there was to
talk about with Chris, and well, we didn't go directly
into that dichotomy between songs and records. I think you'll
hear that the whole conversation is sort of that's the
subtext of it. Chris is very thoughtful. He has so

(02:36):
much to say about music and sound and why it
works and how it works and what about it compels him.
We had a really interesting conversation about a ride symbol
at one point that you'll hear, and Chris kept sort
of saying, oh, sorry if I went off on a
tangent or I don't know if that was quite what
you wanted me to answer, and I kept saying, hell, yes, Chris,
please keep riffing, because everything he said, as you're about

(02:58):
to hear, is really smart, really wise, and comes from
the mind of a man who has really done it
for many, many years and really learned it inside and out.
So needless to say, it was a huge honor to
get to talk to Chris Stamey, a really interesting conversation that,
as so often happens on this podcast, taught me a
lot about writing songs, making records, and existing in this

(03:21):
world as an artist. I think you're going to get
a kick out of it too. I certainly hope you do.
Without further ado, here he is on major label debut.
It is Chris Stamey. I'm so thrilled to talk to

(03:44):
you today. I'm really excited to talk about It's all
right and anything as possible and you know the many,
many great pieces of work in between. But I wanted
to start by commending you for providing on your website
the most useful and actually helpful and practically minded list
of recording tips I've ever come across. I read a
lot about home recording when I was a younger man

(04:05):
getting into it, and everyone starts in such strange places,
and basic things about like not letting the click track
run on your acoustic guitar track or what have you
are totally forgotten and you're left to figure them out
sort of by making these mistakes. And I was so
delighted to click on the tips tab and see such
great stuff.

Speaker 3 (04:23):
Well you know, those were done quite a while ago.
I'm glad they're still relevant. I need to go back
and perhaps update them, but good to.

Speaker 4 (04:31):
Hear the help.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
How important has understanding how the recording and production process
ended up being to you throughout your career as a
songwriter and a solo musician, band member, etc.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
As a songwriter, it might have actually been a distraction
for a while because I always had the point of
view of let's make a movie rather than let's write
a script. And it's only more recently that I've become
more of a screw writer in that way. But I
know when we were originally learning how to write songs

(05:05):
in high school, we were all basing it around tape recording.
We had an early version of the tax four track
reel to real recorder, and we'd hear things on records
we loved and try to figure out how to mimic
them ourselves.

Speaker 4 (05:21):
So you would write a.

Speaker 3 (05:22):
Song, but you would think that, okay, this, we're putting
an extra bar here for a really incredible drum fill,
and then of course you'd have to play a really
incredible drum fill. So recording at the beginning was part
of it, or part of the arranging was arranging for
record making, which was already moving from the theater of

(05:48):
live songwriting for live performance into the cinematic world of
songwriting for recording.

Speaker 1 (05:57):
You've touched on exactly what I think is so interesting
about the conversations I get to have with various artists
about making records, which is that popular music, rock and roll,
the kind of music we're talking about from the twentieth
and twenty first century, is so tied up with the records,
and the song itself is obviously a critical part of
the record, But so too are the arrangement choices and

(06:18):
the sonic choices, and the production and mixing choices. And
I was curious to ask when you first started falling
in love with music, if I can be presumptuous that
you did. Were you noticing songs? Were you noticing you know,
the choices and the record. I know you were really
mesmerized by the ride symbol and don't talk put your
head on my shoulder, for instance. And Brian Wilson is

(06:40):
certainly the king of choices.

Speaker 3 (06:42):
I mean, when I was a kid, we had a piano.
It was the same piano I have now, and I
think I was just fascinated by pushing down the keys
and on different notes and hearing how those combinations worked.
But records my parents had more an influence. You know,
the radio at the time was diverse. We didn't have

(07:03):
national creation of the top twenty anymore at that time,
and radio stations could really go out on a limb,
so you'd have these crazy novelty records that would be hits,
and you know, it was a huge mish mash. But
you know, I think also the romantic literature earlier, you know,
Chupin Schumann. The things my dad played on the piano

(07:25):
were big influences, and hearing the local orchestra play, you know,
was it like going to the circus for my ears?

Speaker 1 (07:37):
Did you have piano lessons or were you left to
sort of figure it out by pressing the notes.

Speaker 3 (07:42):
I had a few piano lessons, but mostly it was
just a fascination with this big machine in the living room.
I liked the idea of being a composer. I think
I saw some pictures of composers in some encyclopedia and thought, well,
that looks like a you know, something that would be
fun to be. But I don't think I landed on

(08:03):
the planet with great musical talent. I think mostly I
clawed my way to the little bit I have now.
I did take electric bass lessons when everybody around me
was in a band and I wanted to be in
a band. And I did learn to read. And I
had played in the orchestra. I mean I'd played violin,
and I'd played upright bass and later cello, so I

(08:24):
was reading, but not so much on piano.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
I really found it interesting when I was a kid
starting out and I started playing guitar, and when I
finally realized I could sit down with the big machine,
as you say, this thing that had been a piece
of furniture in my house essentially for my whole life.
And then you realize, oh, not only can I press
the button, it doesn't hurt my little young finger like
a guitar neck does. But they're all laid out in
front of me. So I know I've read you talking
about how you can go from the three note chords

(08:50):
that you play on the cowboy chords on a guitar
to all of a sudden, four note chords, five note chords,
eight note chords with the piano, and it opens up
this whole horizon which it sounds. It's like if you're
playing bass and violin and later cello, you're doing sort
of the left hand in the middle and the top
of the piano, and now here they all are together
in one beautiful, easy to play keyboard.

Speaker 4 (09:10):
Yeah, this is true.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
I mean there's also you know, it's one thing to
do you pushing down when you're pushing down the notes
on a guitar or on a keyboard, but once you're
using a lot of distortion on a guitar, you might
be pushing down one note, but the harmonic content is
so rich that you really get into trouble once you

(09:31):
hit the major seventh chord all of a sudden, because
the distortion is bringing out the harmonic series. It just
sounds crazy, you know, It's not. The notes may be CEG,
be natural, but the actual harmonics you're hearing are way
beyond that. And I grew up playing you know, fuzzy music.

(09:52):
I mean, we had a lot of distortion on our amplifiers.
So it was a while before I realized that pulling
back into the less saturated the sound of the piano
would let me have more choices in the notes that
would fit together. Maybe getting too heady for everybody who's
listening here, but some people, I mean. But basically, every

(10:13):
time if you hit a single note on an instrument
to some degree, there are all these notes above it.
I mean, if you hit a really low C, you'll
have an octave above that, and then you get it
faint G, and then you get another C, and then
you start to get an E and a kind of
flat G and a not quite a B flat I think,
and then it goes chromatically. So it's as you go

(10:35):
up in the octaves through these whispers of other pitches that.

Speaker 4 (10:38):
Are inherent and any low note you hit.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
So this kind of sonic knowledge, for lack of a
better term for it, it's not shared by all musicians.
And in my world making indie rock music in the
two thousands, you know, I didn't run into a lot
of people who were that interested in learning these things.
And I'm certainly one of those people as well. Is
that knowledge that you sought out or just that you've
picked up over years of being in the studio and

(11:04):
being around instruments and making music, well.

Speaker 4 (11:07):
I mean as far as how tones worked together.

Speaker 3 (11:10):
I remember being in college and George Crumb came to
do a performance and a masterclass. And George was a
He did a lot of very complicated graphic notation, but
he would do a thing where he would hold down
a piano note and a singer would sing into the
piano and her voice would make the note resonate, but

(11:35):
it wasn't the note she was singing, and it was like,
you know, it was way beyond pulling a rabbit out
of a hat.

Speaker 4 (11:40):
It was magical.

Speaker 3 (11:41):
And I think that's when I got interested in the
harmonic series.

Speaker 4 (11:47):
I mean, I didn't. All I did was go to
the class.

Speaker 3 (11:49):
I wasn't really searching it out, but I have had
a live spin around notes and vibrating air. So you
kind of have to be pretty slow on the uptake
to not eventually pick up on some of this stuff.
And nowadays you can, you know, search about it instantly.
But you know indie bands where you've got a guitar

(12:10):
and a bass and drums interacting, if you're open to
new sounds, you know, then you're hearing this kind of
magic happen all the time in those interactions, and you
might have a very simple figure with a couple of
open strings. But I think in indie rock maybe you're
more open to the appearance of magic than in metal bands.

(12:32):
You know, there is a naivety which there's a whole
thing when you talk about to the beginner there are
many options, and to the expert there are few, and
you tried to have a beginner's mind, So I think,
I mean even with things bands like Nirvana. I don't
know that much about Nirvana, but I know they found
these kind of occasional magical combinations of sound that they

(12:54):
might not have found if there were pouring over textbooks.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah, it's such an interesting line between you know, romanticizing
that navete or even that ignorance, which I've certainly done
because it's a great excuse to not practice. But you know,
there's I guess it's just how different minds works, and
it seems like yours is a mind that's interested in
learning and collecting the information that is presented in front

(13:19):
of you as you walk through the vibrating air.

Speaker 4 (13:21):
I don't want to make any great claims. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (13:24):
I mean, I I you know, I'm certainly in the
last four or five years, I've learned a bunch and
I certainly I spent a long time in music before
that without that knowledge. So I just think it's a
lot more fun to continually keep opening doors and music.

(13:45):
You know, it's I think it's like a child's fascination.
You know, you see shiny objects in your drawn.

Speaker 4 (13:52):
To it, to them.

Speaker 3 (13:53):
I mean when I when I hear a chord I'm
not familiar with. I mean, I've come fascinated with chords
built in the instead of on thirds, built on force,
and one of those chords you end up with is
it's like a major seven chord. But the fifth instead
of it the KEFC instead of a G it'd be

(14:15):
a G flat and it's got this particular sound that
right now is my musical child's fascination. Maybe we're going far.
I think you wanted to talk about major labels.

Speaker 1 (14:28):
Well, what I love to talk about, I mean the
major labels just the nexus of like, okay, you get
to this is when you go into the studio and
you're making these musical and sonic and arrangement and producorial
decisions within the context of being on a major or
on an indie or self releasing or whatever. But everyone's
instrument works differently, and so what I'm really interested in

(14:50):
is getting a sense of your instrument and then a
sense of how you've applied it throughout the years and
in the context of being in the studio, within the
music business, and also, frankly, it's just excuse for me
to pick people's brains and learn new things about songwriting
and music making. Well, as long as we're on track, Oh,
we're on track. Don't worry about being on or off track.
I promise if we get too far afield, I'll bring

(15:12):
us back in gently to that end. Do you remember
the first song you wrote, Well, I.

Speaker 3 (15:18):
Would write to these piano instrumentals and I wouldn't be
able to notate them very well. I mean, the first
song song I wrote was what was it called? It
was something about a fire engine. I can't remember the
name of it now. I think it was called far
Alarm about being in class and you get out of
class when the fire alarm goes off and you see

(15:40):
the burning buildings.

Speaker 4 (15:41):
I mean, it wasn't much.

Speaker 3 (15:43):
The first good song I probably wrote was a song
called Sivou Play.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
Did you feel? Because you say it wasn't much, but
I remember, you know, the first song I wrote wasn't
much either. But when I wrote it, just the fact
of having done it, of having you know, sat down
and then stood up and hour later and now there's
a song that exists that didn't before. I didn't know
that I could do that, and then I found it
so addicting. Was that your experience with it?

Speaker 4 (16:08):
I mean, I I.

Speaker 3 (16:10):
Found the model of the right brain and left brain,
the bichomeral model fit what I do when when you're
in that right brain state of flow or in the
zone or whatever. Yeah, it's a joy, I mean, it's great.
It's definitely an addictive thing. I mean, I guess I've
been addicted to it for a long time.

Speaker 4 (16:30):
You know.

Speaker 3 (16:30):
The problem is when you're then come out of that state,
which might not last very long, and I talk to
people like yourself, I'm kind of making it up because
I'm not there anymore. So that's kind of a disclaimer.
But I can describe things. I mean, one thing I've
have thought that is important is you have when you're
in the mood to right music, that you have a

(16:53):
good toolbox by your side, so you know some places
to go, because there's definitely no time when you're being
creative to take a class in harmony one on one.
You know you should, and it's very non judgmental when
you're writing music, so then you sometimes don't realize that
you might be repeating yourself if you don't have the

(17:14):
options already kind of on the table.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
I have this problem where, you know, I'll have some
melody running through my mind, and in my brain it's
this beautiful, incredible, interesting, revolutionary, you know, hook or whatever,
and then I sit down to figure it out and
I default to playing the same major minor chords on
the guitar or on the piano, and they'll work under it,

(17:39):
you know, doing GCD will work under most any melody
at least comes out of my head. But right away
I'll realize, oh geez, I lost some of the magic
that I could hear in my head. I oversimplified the harmony.
But now I can't get back out of it. I
can't remember what it sounded like to me to before.
And if I had more chords in my toolbox, for instance,
I think is your point, I would I'd be able

(18:01):
to save some of those melodies or give them, you
do them a little more justice, maybe, is the right
way to say it.

Speaker 3 (18:07):
Yeah, I mean, it might be that the first note
of your melody has a flavor that really is that
of the ninth of the chord or the fourth of
the chord, rather than one of the vanilla notes that's
right in the chord, sometimes the notes of B and
you're playing an A minor, so it's the second or
the ninth of the A minor scale.

Speaker 4 (18:29):
That might have been what you're thinking about.

Speaker 3 (18:31):
But if you're thinking, oh, it's got to be an
AC or an E because that's a noticent, I think
that a lot of times, if you're hearing the melody
and then you go to harmonize it. You need to
think of the character of the given pitch as you
find the chord that goes under it, and often that
character will be against a chord that is not does

(18:54):
not have that note in it.

Speaker 4 (18:56):
Does that make sense?

Speaker 1 (18:57):
Yeah, you're really good at talking about these things that
are not you know, as they say, it's a bit
of dancing about architecture. It's not as easy to communicate without,
you know, a piano or a guitar next to you.
But I think, just like with the recording tips on
your website, you really have a way of getting to
the point of what's actually matters about the thing. I
don't know if that's a skill you've always had or
when you've developed working in the studio with bands.

Speaker 4 (19:20):
Well, that's kind of you to say.

Speaker 3 (19:22):
I think about sheerylck Holmes when you know, Watson said
something about the Earth revolving around the sun and Holmes
had no idea what he was talking about because he
was so blinkered to the you know, varieties of tobacco
that actually pertain to what cherylack Holmes was trying to do.
You know, if you ask me, how far is it

(19:45):
from Bakersfield to San Diego. I would really not be
able to help you. But if you ask me about
notes on familiar ground.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
And as you said, you've spent your life among notes,
among the vibrating eras you so beautifully put it, I
wanted to ask a bit about the other end of
this story, which is, you know, the weird thing that
has so little to do with music, even though it
has so much to do with music, which is, you know,
your move to New York City and your entrance into

(20:18):
this world of incredible impressive you know, legendary and iconic
musicians whose work will live forever, whether that's Alex Chilton
or Television or Chris Bell or any number of names.
I'm sure you've heard many a time people sort of
speak in reverent tones about this time in New York
City and these people in New York City and seeing

(20:38):
television at CBGB's itself is like from this remove is
the kind of thing that is depicted in a movie
at this point, and I'm wondering if it felt special,
not in that it was going to turn into what
it ended up turning into, but if there was an
energy that connected with you when you got there beyond
the obvious a musical appeal of all these brilliant musicians.

Speaker 3 (21:01):
Well, I mean, there had been the conception, particularly by
people who didn't have major label contacts, that the only
way to get music out there was to go to
the men behind the desk, and this served as a
kind of filter. And you did have people behind the desk,
particularly before the seventies, You had people who were musicians

(21:25):
and did have a sense that, Okay, this guy was
actually a good singer, or this guy was a good
saxophone player or whatever.

Speaker 4 (21:32):
And at that time, in.

Speaker 3 (21:34):
The late seventies, all of a sudden, a bunch of
people realize that you don't have to go to the
men behind the desk. Take you can just do what
had been called a vanity record. You could go and
pay the you know, Nashville record pressing or wherever to
run off five hundred copies or a thousand copies of
your record, and you don't have to get the approval

(21:55):
of the man behind the desk.

Speaker 4 (21:56):
And you know, that was a powerful thing.

Speaker 3 (21:59):
So I think that a lot of people were jumping
into that, particularly in the you know, seventy seven, seventy eight,
seventy nine, it really Indie music really exploded musically in.

Speaker 4 (22:11):
New York at that time.

Speaker 3 (22:13):
As I looked at it then and still look at it,
television was way ahead of most everybody, and the talking
heads were doing interesting things. But a lot of the
other bands were maybe making stuff that was compelling, but
it wasn't that interesting to me. It didn't seem all
that new, and I guess that's what I have to

(22:33):
say about that. I mean, it did seem like something
special was going on, you know, the inmates had taken
over the asylum and it was exciting. But I'm not
sure how much of that scene ended up having legs,
but it had an outsized influence for sure. I actually
think that what was called a no wave scene, which

(22:54):
in many ways was even more untutored or less traditionally tutored.
I mean, there was a band called DNA with Arto
Lindsay that was really fascinating, even though I'm not sure
that Art knew any of the names of the notes.

(23:16):
I have solid with Yoursam was a lot you know,
Lydia lunch with eight Eyed Spy, which was a combination
of a few great players, and Lydia was a real presence.

Speaker 4 (23:39):
You know, I think that was a very cool band
at that time. M h.

Speaker 1 (23:58):
And what did you want it when you went to
New York? Did you have a day dream? Did you
have a goal in mind?

Speaker 3 (24:05):
No? I mean I wanted to make my own records.
I wanted to record. I wanted to you know, be heard,
I think, but you know, I was probably looking for
a thrill. I mean it seemed seemed very exciting.

Speaker 1 (24:18):
By the time I started making music. You know, we
started our band in like two thousand and five. By
that point, band indie bands had existed for ages. We
had a million models to look at and aspire to
be just like Radiohead or just like the Strokes or
just like whoever. Did it feel like that for you
or did it feel more wild Westy? Does that make sense?

(24:38):
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (24:39):
Like?

Speaker 1 (24:39):
What was the narrative shape of what you were walking
into in your mind?

Speaker 3 (24:44):
I've been in a little town a Chapel Hill, North Carolina,
And when I got to New York, in downtown and
living on Bleaker Street, it was like being in a
little town again. I mean it was one hundred and
fifty people, maybe two hundred, but you know, fifty of
them were journalists, and there was a bullhorn across the
country because the national music press had a big presence

(25:06):
in New York. Even like New Musical Express would have
stringers in New York and get the word out. So
when they were going to the clubs and they were
seeing the Plasmatics or their Emones or whoever, those were
their local bands, and they were writing about him. But
it was a tiny scene. And it was also like

(25:27):
my Chapel Hill time. It was a pedestrian scene. Everybody
would see everybody on the street walking around the village
and so and Tribeca, and it is funny to me
how few people it actually involved, and everybody kind of
knew everybody. It was also a you know, there were
photographers and painters doing really interesting things too.

Speaker 4 (25:49):
It wasn't strictly a musical scene, but it was tiny.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
That's so interesting, and that the proximity of the music
press to then amplify it and make it into you know,
this great, huge story. So I guess that's like a
critical part of any scene, really is there's people there
to town cry about it.

Speaker 3 (26:05):
Well, yeah, I guess that's true. I mean, maybe it's
not a critical part of the scene. But it's a
critical part of history being aware of the scene.

Speaker 1 (26:14):
Yeah, exactly, the canonization of the scene, for better or
for worse. So you made a couple of records in
the DB's and then you set out on your own
and made your major label debut. That's the name of
the podcast, Everybody and I was curious what led you
to A and M Records at that point, you know,

(26:35):
what was their pitch to you or what was your
pitch to them?

Speaker 3 (26:38):
Well, I had moved from Manhattan to Hoboken and it
was a studio in Hoboken.

Speaker 4 (26:42):
Hoboken's right across the water if you don't know New York,
and the.

Speaker 3 (26:46):
Studio there called Water Music, and there was a club
called Maxwell's and there was a local label there called Coyote,
and Steve Fallon, who had the club Maxwells, had a
relationship with the people at Water Music. So I was
still pretty Indy when I made that is Alright record,
and they had hooked up with a very slightly larger

(27:08):
label but totally Indy, still called Twin Tone. So there
was Coyote and Hoboken in Twin Tone in Minneapolis. I
had twintoned to Paul Stark, who did Twinton had made
some money from a record called Funky Town, which is
a big hit using a drum machine. And so when
I made the Islright record, it was not for A
and M. It was for Coyote Twin Tone, and the

(27:32):
budget was tiny and we're working really fast, but I
was able to get Anton Fear and Richard Lloyd involved
and Alex Chilton. And when that record was finished, it
was at the same time that A and M had
done a deal with Twin Tone, and my record happened

(27:52):
to be the first thing that was submitted. And David Anderley,
who had been running the Beach Boys label but was
now running ANN and listen to it and signed it
the next day. I guess that was what I'm saying
is A and M had an option on the Coyote
Twin Town product. But I did not make that record
thinking that it was going to be on a major

(28:12):
I mean, I was thrilled that.

Speaker 4 (28:13):
It was and it was very cool.

Speaker 3 (28:16):
I thought David Anderley was you know, that was pretty amazing.
And also our friend Karen Glauber was at A and
M at that time as well, and she was she
had been in Hoboken and you know, super cool and
super smart. So I felt really good about A and M.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
And how was the rollout process? How did it feel
to you to be in that major label machine. Was
it a lot different than you'd experienced with the DB's records,
for instance? At that point, I think.

Speaker 3 (28:46):
It's like you're driving down the highway at night and
someone has their rights on and they don't turn them off.
You know. I think that it was disorienting and I
was swerving all over the road a little bit. I
found a manager who had done major label things before
but was not really the right fit. But I was told,
you know, you can't deal directly with a major label.

(29:07):
You've got to go through a manager, and it wasn't smooth.
They had high hopes for one of the songs, Carolee.

Speaker 1 (29:17):
Carlee, Carly, I didn't meet it.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
I take it back, Carly Carolyn, I didn't meet it.

Speaker 1 (29:26):
I take it back, Carly Karle, I want to tell
you didn't.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
For you act Carolee Carle, I didn't meet it. I
take it back.

Speaker 3 (29:40):
But didn't really go anywhere, and I put together a
band that was inconsistent. The membership was changing, so I
think I fumbled that a little bit, but I was
pleased when they wanted to do a second record with me,
and it was partially because the David Anderley had left
and Steve Verbovsky had come in to A and M.

(30:02):
And Rabovsky had been involved in my management in New
York before he already knew me, and he also had
an ear for outside things. He had actually managed television
at one point. So Steve Verbobski said that he liked
my guitar playing, I think especially, and he wanted to
make another record, and we were off for the second record.

Speaker 1 (30:23):
Did making that record feel different since now you were
making it under the auspices of a major label?

Speaker 4 (30:28):
Consciously, yeah, it was different.

Speaker 3 (30:31):
I felt a little more accepted, and I was going
in the office and the A and R guy, I
think Patrick Clifford at the time, was listening to songs
and Steve Robobski was running the show, was listening to
songs and making suggestions.

Speaker 4 (30:45):
But there was still pretty hands off.

Speaker 3 (30:50):
I was the most affordable producer they could get, and
it wasn't a big budget. It was still going through
Twin Tone and Coyote, so it was still like a
second tier major label thing. I wasn't signed directly to
A and M. I think it made me a little nuts.
You know, I have friends, you know, Mitch Easter and
Don Dixon do a great job producing their own records.

(31:11):
But for the most part, I think it's better to
have someone apart from the band or the songwriter as
the producer. You know, it's just hard to look at
yourself in the mirror and have any real sense of
what hat you want to wear. And but you know,
I enjoyed making the record, and in the end I

(31:31):
submitted it. But for the first record they had signed
me in like a day they said this is great.
For the second record, I think it took a weekend
for them to say we don't want to put this out.
So in the end, you know, that was pretty soul crushing.
And they owned the record and they didn't want to
release it. Basically, they had decided that the guy in

(31:53):
charge of radio at A and M, who was a
holdover from the old days, would not have a clue
about how to promote it.

Speaker 4 (32:01):
And it had hit the wall a couple of times.

Speaker 3 (32:03):
Bringing in more indie and modern things, and the old
guard at A and M just not knowing what to
do with them.

Speaker 4 (32:11):
So they said, well.

Speaker 3 (32:13):
We're not going to put it out, and that was
a record called Fireworks, which did end up coming out.
It did through again through a convoluted It came out
to something called Rhino New Artists, which I believe is
going through Warner Music Group at the time, and so
it came out a few years later. It might have
come out in ninety one or ninety two.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
So, coming out the other end of that experience with
A and M, did you feel like your approach to
your own the career part of your career, you know,
the business choices that you have to make in order
to make music professionally. Did it get clarified or changed.
Did you come out of it with like a different
sense of where you wanted to go or how you

(32:54):
wanted to conduct yourself.

Speaker 3 (32:56):
Well, I wish I had at any point thought of it.
I'm not sure I ever did. I just wanted to
keep making movies, you know. I mean, I liked hit records.
I like the ones I've grown up with, so I
would try to write them and record them and mix
them so they sounded kind of like a single because
I liked that thrill. But as far as a career,

(33:19):
you know, I had I thought Tom Ralane was great.

Speaker 4 (33:22):
I thought J. D.

Speaker 3 (33:23):
Salinger was great, thought Alex Chilton was great. And I
think I absorbed their lack of careerism on some level
as I look back on it, so, you know, but
you know, I was getting pulled into producing at the
same time, and that was a big distraction and continue
to be a distraction for quite a while.

Speaker 1 (33:45):
When you say distraction, that strikes me almost as a
negative thing. Do you look back and wish you'd spent
less time producing or was it just, you know, a
different focus of energy.

Speaker 3 (33:56):
No, I probably wish I'd spent less time producing. I
would rather be writing. I think that.

Speaker 4 (34:04):
Is what I like the most.

Speaker 1 (34:06):
Another hat you wore is that you've run a couple
of record labels yourselves over the years, including putting out
the I Am the Cosmos the Chris Bell record, which
is revered in certain corners, including especially by producer of
this podcast, John Paul Bullock. It sounds like that was less,
you know, a money making endeavor, a careerist choice, and
more another manifestation of your interest in movie making.

Speaker 3 (34:29):
Well, I mean I'm the Cosmos and the Flip Side,
which is also great.

Speaker 4 (34:34):
We're already recorded, and.

Speaker 3 (34:37):
But Chris Bell had the masters and there was no label,
and Alex Chilton brought them to me. I had put
out records by my friends, as one does with an
indie label, although at the time there weren't many indie labels.
Alex suggests that I call Chris and put out I'm
the Cosmos.

Speaker 4 (34:57):
So the only thing creative I did in that.

Speaker 3 (35:00):
Release is I asked Chris to just speed it up
a little bit and mastering, and if you know the record,
it's still pretty slow, but at that time it was
because everything was on analog and it was easy to
play with the very speed at the last moment. It
was really not unusual to uh, maybe nudge things a little.
They got a little brighter and a little faster when

(35:21):
you're in the tape, you know, one percent faster. So

(35:51):
I pushed him to do that and he did, and
I still think it was an okay call, although sometimes
when I think of the the egotism it took for
me to say anything to Chris Fell, I'm appalled, just
out of curiosity.

Speaker 1 (36:06):
How much vari speed do you think you can get
away with? You know, how much faster or slower can
you do? Before?

Speaker 2 (36:13):
You know?

Speaker 1 (36:13):
In the in the tape way.

Speaker 3 (36:15):
Not with today's three percent, you're in trouble. You know,
you can definitely, I mean two percent is already getting marginal,
but you know, even one and a half can be
pretty cool.

Speaker 4 (36:27):
It's tricky to do that coming off of digital.

Speaker 3 (36:31):
I mean, it's not impossible to do it, but and
you know, we're talking about the speed changing, but it
also makes a pitch.

Speaker 4 (36:37):
Change an analog.

Speaker 3 (36:40):
You know, you play a lot of old records and
sometimes they're not a FOR forty at all, and that
may be because they just didn't have a tuner in
a studio, but most likely it's because they nudged the
speed and master them.

Speaker 1 (36:53):
I've been learning a bunch of Oasis songs. I'm playing
this Oasis cover band, and they seem to have done
a ton of slowing down of their stuff. And so
you go to try and play live Forever or whatever.
If you're in for forty, you're the worst sounding out
of tune you can possibly be with the master of
that song. But the tempos are great. I mean, you
listen to them play live Forever live, and it's too

(37:13):
fast and the record it sounds like they did that
in the studio. And someone said No, it needs to
be a little heavier, a little slower, And sure enough
it was just like you and Chris Ball. It was
the right move, even if it was audacious to recommend.
So I won't spend all day talking about all the
many records you made. Since it's all right and fireworks,
I wanted to catch up to present day and use

(37:34):
your new record anything as possible as a entryway to
just talk about like how you're making music now. And
the first thing I was really curious about is you
have your own studio. Is that where you write your
songs for the most part or do you keep those
things separate?

Speaker 4 (37:51):
No, I can't.

Speaker 3 (37:53):
Mostly the follow in my studio is it is a
little bit dead. It's not large enough to have, you know,
it's a little bit baffled, So it's not that much.
There's a front room I like, but it's really tiny.
Mostly I write at the piano.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
How much do the ideas we're talking about the difference
between script writing and movie making. You're saying you're trying
to get more into script writing, But how much do
the notions of how you might produce a song or
even a range a song factor into the writing When
you're so experienced in all of those parts of the equation.

Speaker 3 (38:26):
I try to make it less and less, so I
try to think a lot less about whether it's a
wide shot or a close up. I mean, basically, I'm
trying to find a way to set a lyric where
the music and the lyric fit together. You know, where
there's it's dramatically compelling by the choice of harmonies and

(38:50):
you know, perhaps some meter changes. But I'm trying to
make it so that it could work in many different styles. Really,
I mean, I'll try to notate it down into you know,
two or three sheets of paper using the regular kind
of jazz real book chord language, and I'll write the

(39:10):
melody as accurately as I can, and then if they're
little base licks or things that I feel are really crucial,
I'll write them in. And then I just take the
paper and I put it in the pile and I
move on, you know. I mean, I think sometimes I
have the way the record should sound in my head,
but I don't know. I'm just more drawn to a

(39:30):
more vague sense of what the song is.

Speaker 1 (39:34):
Because that leaves room, among other things, for your collaborators
to come in and surprise you and to add, you know,
their own ideas in there. And they wanted to ask
you how you approach control because you're producing these records,
you're writing the songs, but you're also working with these brilliant, interesting,
incredibly accomplished in their own right musicians. How much are

(39:56):
you like dictating to them versus how much are they
surprising you? And how do you walk that line of
collaborating in the most productive way possible.

Speaker 3 (40:05):
I mean a lot of times I'm writing out parts
and asking them to play the part, and then I
asked him do they have other ideas? I mean, Robin
Gregory played a lot of you know, fairly as that's
going to be pretty simple trumpet and French horn parts
on my record, and then he would include other tracks
of little lines on guitars, and I think everything he

(40:27):
gave me I used.

Speaker 4 (40:29):
I was very grateful for that. So it varies.

Speaker 3 (40:33):
But you know, even with really really good people, I
usually come in with at least a sketch of what
I'm looking for. I think nobody has very much time anymore,
you know, and sometimes things are being done remotely as well.
I mean with Peter Holzapple, I often will say you know,

(40:53):
what the hell what do you think?

Speaker 4 (40:55):
You know?

Speaker 3 (40:56):
And he'll think of an instrument and the part I
never would think of. So I guess it depends on
the person. But often it is a written line and
that then we bounce off that.

Speaker 1 (41:10):
Yeah, it is just the lack of time and the
lack of money and everything really makes you think about
I keep mentioning Brian Wilson, but clearly he's an influence
on you and on this record in particular, and just
what he was, the resources he had to do, the
creative work he did. You know, every year that goes by,
I get more staggered by the freedom and the opportunity

(41:30):
he had to be in the studio with those musicians
working them and you know, making the masterpieces that he made.
It seems like we might never get to hear anything
like that. Again, Oh, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (41:42):
Things change, but I mean maybe not exactly like that,
but yeah, I think there's creativity as hard to squelch.

Speaker 1 (41:50):
I mean, amen, So you've called this record sort of
it started in like a croonerly space and then it
evolved from there to know, there's some higher tempo songs
and stuff. But is it fair to say that you're
sort of working in an idiom on this record. That's
a little more that was more mainstream in the fifties

(42:12):
and sixties with a lot of the songs. Is that
a good way to describe it.

Speaker 4 (42:15):
I think mainstream today.

Speaker 3 (42:18):
Means primarily the same four chords and you have a
lyric idea and you try to find a melody within
those four chords that are looping. So since I'm not,
I'm hardly ever doing that, then I think I hardly
ever fit into what's current. But you know, I mean,
some of this was written in the pandemic when things

(42:41):
were very dark and silent, and I would be playing
Bill Evins and Chet Baker a lot, and so those
were influences. But you look at the first time on
the record is called I'd Be Lost Without You, and
you know, it has these bright flavors in it from
the Lemon Twigs singing harmonies.

Speaker 1 (42:58):
And I'd be long without You jangled.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
And blue to this song without You cant stood for
Ask you.

Speaker 3 (43:22):
If you heard that song just the vocal and the chords,
it would be much more jerome current than you'd think.
I was surprised at how how that one metamorphosized is
that the word?

Speaker 4 (43:36):
Can you say that word? I don't know.

Speaker 3 (43:41):
I just you know, I'm not on a mission. I
just write what I write. But I am fascinated by trying, well,
I'm trying to surprise myself harmonically.

Speaker 4 (43:50):
I think.

Speaker 3 (43:52):
Doesn't mean that my songs are better or worse than anybody's,
or that that's the right thing for other people. But
it's just where I've found myself.

Speaker 1 (44:02):
And so then when you go to record that music,
when you go to produce it, you know, especially a
song like I'd be lost without you. You know, I
think there's probably musicians who would be inclined to steer
into the you know, to use like period equipment, say, oh,
we're going to record this with like an old sixties

(44:23):
valve console or whatever, to try and consciously or otherwise
make it, you know, sound, whether it's like a Beach
Boys song or you know whatever. Else. Is this a
tape record or a computer record?

Speaker 3 (44:36):
It is a computer record, I mean, yeah, I spent
so much time on tape that I just don't glorify
it the way a lot of people do. I I've
become quite used to pro tools. I started on it
in ninety two. You know, it's very instant, you know.
I mean, I like, I wrote a lot of words
on typewriters, but I'm really quite used to Microsoft word

(44:59):
at a point two.

Speaker 4 (45:01):
You know, it's different.

Speaker 3 (45:02):
But I mean I will do retro things, but generally
using software. I mean, I have you know, I've got
a knave board, I've got a rolling space echo, I've
got a Gates compressor, I've got Uri you know, eleven
seventy six and old microphones and stuff like that.

Speaker 4 (45:19):
And these are just colors, you know. But I guess to.

Speaker 3 (45:23):
Your point, I mean, there's a song Meet me in
Midtown that I think is especially colored in a retro way.

Speaker 4 (45:36):
Meet me in Mitte after the work in days strip,
meet me in.

Speaker 3 (45:46):
Along the even News.

Speaker 4 (45:49):
I know a place where Weekend say so we aren't blues,
Meet me in.

Speaker 3 (46:00):
And I think I was thinking about Downtown by Tony
Hatch and by about this record called Hernando's hide Away,
which are a very old sounding record. So, you know,
I think that it is true that, particularly on this
new release, there is some affinity for the world of

(46:22):
tubes and the sound of analog.

Speaker 1 (46:25):
It's interesting to me, though, how much, because I think
that that can be a shortcut for a lot of
artists who you know, who for whatever reason, want to
call back to those sounds. They'll do it sonically, but
they won't necessarily do it with the song craft. And
it's the songs on this record that have that elemental clarity,
if that makes sense. I was really struck by one

(46:45):
day when My Ship Comes In, just as because as
a musician, often people who aren't like my musical friends
are interested in hearing songs I've written, and they want
you to sit down and play it on the guitar
at the campfire. They want you to put on your
CD and the indie rock I'm making. As much as
I may think, you know, these lyrics are really good
or this hook is really strong. A lot of the time,
if I play it for an eight year old or

(47:07):
an eighty year old, it's like it means nothing to them.
And I feel like one day when My Ship Comes In,
in particular, is a piece of music you could sit
down with a piano anywhere and play it to anyone.
They would emotionally understand what that song is about and
what it means. And you know, an eight year old
would have a different reaction to it than an eighty
year old, but I was so just really impressed by

(47:27):
like the clarity of that song and the craft of it,
both musically and lyrically.

Speaker 4 (47:34):
Much comes in.

Speaker 3 (47:43):
Fast to theseies.

Speaker 4 (47:48):
Please see that you wait.

Speaker 2 (48:00):
Will beyond well.

Speaker 3 (48:04):
I mean, I do think that is one of the
songs in this record that I'm the most proud of.

Speaker 4 (48:09):
And it's a funny one. I mean, it's really a lullaby.

Speaker 3 (48:13):
And it also was definitely colored by World War Two
songs I would hear growing up. So when you talk
about a Chile's understanding of it, that communicates I mean,
by World War Two songs, I mean songs like I'll
be home for Christmas if only in my dreams, or
I'll be seeing you in all the old familiar places
where you know, songs that would seem poignant at the

(48:35):
time because couples were separated because one of them would
be in the European theater. You know they and you
don't know if you're ever going to actually see them again,
even though you say in the song that you can't
wait to see them again.

Speaker 4 (48:47):
So I was thinking about that kind of thing.

Speaker 3 (48:51):
But you know, there's a certain hinge moments in it
where it'll it'll shift modes in a way that I
think fit the lyrics carefully. So I think it is
the mechanism of that song is more just chords and
melody than some of the other songs, which do depend
on a jovial, rollicking drummer.

Speaker 4 (49:14):
But I'm glad you like it. I like it. I'm
really proud of that one.

Speaker 3 (49:17):
I mean, I've been playing it with strings and winds
in this pretty full arrangement in recent shows, but also
when I just play it on guitar or piano, it
works pretty well that way.

Speaker 1 (49:28):
I mean that like longing, that yearning to be with
whoever you wish you were with, is anybody knows that feeling.
We've literally all had it, and maybe music is better
at evoking that feeling than any other art form. So
it's I don't know, it's such a rich and important
canon of like I'm not sure if torch song is
quite the right word for it, but you know, beautiful

(49:51):
yearning songs like you were describing, like I'll be home
for Christmas.

Speaker 3 (49:56):
It's interesting harmonically, I think that's part. I mean, if
you look at it, it's really in pretty much in
E flat major, but then it. You know, it does
surprise you with a minor four chord, but it's basically
right in that key, and then from E flat, all
of a sudden, you're in on the bridge. You're in
G flat for just a minute, but then it goes

(50:19):
to an A minor, which is really distant and the
key of G flat, and it walks down into end
up on a B flat, which gets you back into
the flat. And I'm not sure how any of that worked,
and I really haven't figured it out musically. But when
I got to that point of writing that bridge, I

(50:42):
took the day off because I thought that was I mean,
it's only six or eight bars, but there is something
about that I hear in it, something that Carol King
might have done when it goes to the second half
of the bridge. But I really can't quite figure it
out myself. It's just kind of a gift.

Speaker 1 (51:01):
So you're not thinking in your head, Okay, so I
want to, you know, evoke such and such a feeling,
and so I need this kind of chord run, but
you're sitting at the piano looking for what's right. I
guess that's that's my experience writing songs. I'm just trying
to bring the music in harmony with what my gut
wants to feel, and I'm searching for the way to
do it. It's sort of a trial and error process.

(51:22):
Is that how you write that bridge? For instance?

Speaker 3 (51:27):
Well, the song's pretty melancholy, and then the bridge I
want to say, you know, one lucky day, we'll be
back together. So you wanted to have the sunlight come
in the room at that spot, will have it all on.

Speaker 4 (51:45):
That lucky day. My mind's kind of a blank.

Speaker 3 (51:50):
I mean, I remember writing that song one morning and
it was early and then you know, I don't really remember.
I mean, it wasn't very calculated.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
It was just.

Speaker 4 (52:01):
Something I've found. I don't know how to talk about it.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
Really.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
One day, I know, Well, this is the beauty of music,
is that it does all the speaking really itself that
we need it to do. I just had a couple
more questions for you. You've been very generous with your time
and your wisdom and your stories, and I really really
appreciate it.

Speaker 4 (52:26):
Well, you're very welcome. We're two in the weeds here.

Speaker 1 (52:30):
The weeds are where we're happiest on this show. Okay,
that's what we like about music and speaking of the Weeds.
I mentioned earlier that you've said, you know, you do
this amazing cover of Don't Talk put your Head on
My Shoulder, the Beach Boys song on this record, And
I read in an interview with you talking about the
ride symbol in the original version of that song and
how it resonated with you. And it's the only drum

(52:51):
on that song, and it just rides.

Speaker 2 (52:53):
Throughout on my shoulder.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
The first tip on your recording tips on your website
is get the best symbols you can by any means necessary.

Speaker 4 (53:10):
Oh, well, you're right.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
I wanted to ask you what is the power of
the symbol in rock music?

Speaker 3 (53:18):
Yeah, I mean when I got pat Sounds when I
was in high school, I guess I love that rod symbol.

Speaker 4 (53:25):
But it was later.

Speaker 3 (53:28):
When I was living in Hoboken, probably about nineteen eighty eight,
that I set up a ride symbol down in the
basement where they're in that house I was living, which
also had a dark room and wasn't used by the
other inhabitants too much. And I would go down there
and you know, for an hour or two at a time,
I would just do these rolls on the symbol with

(53:49):
brushes and with regular sticks, and the amount of the
timber you can get out of a single old Zilgen
ride symbol.

Speaker 4 (54:00):
Is mind blowing, you know.

Speaker 3 (54:01):
And and usually it's on a it's just something that
drummer goes to on the chorus, and it's kind of
mixed in with all the guitars on rock records. But
I really did fall in love with the ride symbol
at that point.

Speaker 4 (54:15):
I mean there's a.

Speaker 3 (54:17):
World of pitch there and a world of timbre, and
I mean it was a kind of meditation for me
to just play that single ride symbol at great length
and fall into the depth of that sound. Now this
is I'm saying this, and it must sound insane, but
I recommend to anyone they try it before they judge me,

(54:41):
because it can be a really beautiful thing.

Speaker 4 (54:43):
And I think I lost the thread of your question.

Speaker 1 (54:46):
No, no, I just wanted to hear you wax rapsodic
about symbols. You answered my question perfectly and.

Speaker 4 (54:51):
The end, Oh yeah, I mean, in many ways, there
a total pain. You know.

Speaker 3 (54:55):
They're what messes up a record, doesn't I do think
of I made a record with Alejandro Escovedo and we're
using this drummer. I like her better when she walks away.
And we're using this drummer named John Worster, who's that
with Bob Mold and Mountain Goats and it was in
Super Chunk and he's a great, great player and great

(55:16):
comedian as well.

Speaker 4 (55:17):
But that's neither here nor there.

Speaker 3 (55:19):
And uh I so remember standing beside him on one
side and Alejandro's and on the other side, and I'm saying, John,
it's really important that you you bashed the symbols in
this one and an alns and another side saying John, as
a personal favor to me, I would appreciate it if
you do not play any symbols, and you know, because

(55:44):
that was Elle Hundra's thing at the time, no symbols,
And uh I think I won out.

Speaker 4 (55:48):
There are a lot of symbols on the final record.

Speaker 3 (55:50):
But it also reminds me of doing a being in
the studio producing a record in England and Andy Partters
was going to do one track on it, and so
we've been working for weeks and full drum kit and
then Andy walks in and he looks over at the drummer.
He walks over there and he says, you know, for
this song, you don't need this, and he just pulls

(56:11):
his high hat away and leaves him with no I had,
And I learned a lot from that that sometimes it
is better to just take stuff away before you even begin.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
Well on, put your head on my shoulder. It's like
on the Beach Boys version, that's he's just hitting what
half notes on a ride symbol throughout the entire slow quarters. Yeah,
it's amazing how in the pocket and how much feel
there can be on a part so utterly simple. I mean,
it really has like this beautiful pace to it, and it's,

(56:43):
as you say, it's meditative and it's just beautiful stuff.

Speaker 3 (56:47):
I mean, we like it partially because it goes with
the sense of the lyric. You know, don't talk. It's
very kind of it's the seashore coming in and there
are no words.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
So well, the final question we always ask on major
label debut is what I, as you know, somewhat experienced
user of record studios, considered to be the most important
factor in the making of any record, which is while
you were making It's all right? Which, am I correct
that you made that record at Water Music in Hoboken.

Speaker 3 (57:19):
Yeah, some of it was done in Nicolette in Minneapolis
because of Twin Tones involvement. I mean, it might have
been Alliver, but it was mostly at Water Music. And
I will say for your listeners that you MG and
their wisdom has seen fit to remove that record from
availability because I tapped them on the shoulder and said

(57:40):
that Congress has said that I could get it back,
and they don't agree with that. So we're talking about
it's all right, but you might be able to hear
it on YouTube somehow, but you cannot hear it on
the streaming services or buy.

Speaker 1 (57:53):
You can hear it on Spotify in Canada, I can
exclusively report here. So I have also been the target
of punitive removal from streaming platforms by disgruntled record labels.
And it is insane that it's allowed, and it's bullshit,
and we hope that that situation gets resolved for you

(58:14):
and for everyone else sooner than later.

Speaker 4 (58:16):
I actually think UMG is about to change their position, so.

Speaker 1 (58:21):
Well, we hope. So, but my question was what did
you eat at Water Music? I don't know if they
had fiories open back then.

Speaker 3 (58:31):
When I produce people, I do try to enforce the
no pizza rule because nothing really happens once you eat
pizza in the studio.

Speaker 4 (58:40):
But there might have been some pizza. Gosh, I'm trying
to I mean, there was a this.

Speaker 3 (58:47):
Bar across the street that Frank Sinatra would still come
back to occasionally. I think had sandwiches. I guess most
of my diet at a time was muscles. I would
I would go to Maxwell's and just go the muscles.

Speaker 4 (59:01):
Oh yeah, that's about all I can bring to mind.

Speaker 1 (59:04):
What about these days making the new one? Now that
you have a studio a little closer to home, are
you brown bagging it most days? Or do you still
order in?

Speaker 4 (59:13):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (59:13):
I mean we have a property, and we have a
lot in Chapel Hill, and the studio is on isn't
back in the woods on our lot. So I just
walked to the kitchen and I don't know, eggs, turkey burgers.
I tried my first beyond beef patties a couple of

(59:34):
days ago and was not unhappy.

Speaker 1 (59:37):
They're pretty good.

Speaker 4 (59:39):
Just normal food, I guess, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (59:43):
Well, just normal food seems to be working.

Speaker 3 (59:45):
I wonder if I wasn't enjoying a lot of wheat
grass during the making of its all right?

Speaker 4 (59:51):
I know, there were some periods.

Speaker 3 (59:53):
And you know, coffee, unfortunately at that time was a
really big I mean it's still in the game, but uh,
I would drink a lot of coffee.

Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
I've noticed it nice studios where there's you know, like
a studio assistant or someone who's sort of working there
primarily doing hospitality stuff. My coffee intake skyrockets dangerously because
there's just always a fresh pot of coffee on and.

Speaker 4 (01:00:16):
Yeah, always, yeah, it's it's better.

Speaker 3 (01:00:19):
Most most of them now have the pods of some kind,
an espresso or a carrig so you can keep track
of it when it's just in the in the urn
and you're just continually refreshing, you can you know you
talk about tempos, I mean, yeah, it can get crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
Yeah, talk about vera speed. Pizza brings you down, Coffee
brings you back up, and you find some happy meatia.

Speaker 4 (01:00:43):
You find a happy medium in the restaurant.

Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
Perhaps, And on that note, I will thank you so
much once again. It's really great talking to you, and
genuinely you you asked a few times if we were
two in the weeds or if you were explaining yourself clearly,
and I just I really can't say enough. You have
a great person and you're really good at explaining it
and making it make sense. And I hear that in
your songs as well. You're a good communicator and I

(01:01:07):
really appreciate you taking the time to communicate to us.

Speaker 3 (01:01:10):
Well back at you. The questions were great. I mean, yes,
this was a joy. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
That was my conversation with Chris Stamey about his major
label debut, It's all Right. It came out in nineteen
eighty seven on A and M Records, And also just
like his whole life as a rock and roller, as
a producer, as a man of music. You know, anytime
you're talking about Pet Sounds and the Beach Boys with
a fellow musician, you know you're having a good conversation

(01:01:42):
because the record is so dense with music, with sound,
with ideas, and the ideas signify all these different things.
I mean, this obviously is the genius of Pet Sounds,
but it's true of every record, and something I really
encourage people to do if they're at all sort of
into this kind of nerding out, is to take a

(01:02:04):
song that you know, you know, a song that you
know pretty well, and pop on your headphones, and pick
one instrument and pick you know, the bass or the keyboarders,
this like not the lead vocals, you know, something a
little less obvious. Close your eyes, don't be on your phone,
deep listen and follow that one instrument through the whole song,
and really listen to the choices that are made, both

(01:02:27):
in terms of performance and in terms of composition, and
in terms of how it was recorded and what it
sounds like, and whether there are mistakes left in or
whether it sounds completely metronomically perfect, or you know, the
more you listen, the more you're gonna realize there are
there's almost an infinite number of variables about just one
instrument recorded on one song. And then you know, you
can go back to the beginning and listen again to

(01:02:48):
the piano, and go back to the beginning and listen
again to the drums, or even just the symbols, like
Chris and I were talking about the ride symbol and
don't talk put your head on my shoulder by the
Beach Boys, a symbol that is doing at as little
as a rhythmic instrument can do on a song. And
yet as you heard for Chris, it really unlocked this
whole emotion and this whole vibe of the song to

(01:03:09):
the extent where he felt compelled to cover it and
to get inside of it himself, which is, you know,
some of the highest praise a musician can give to
another song. That's what records are. There are these collection
of decisions, these collection of sounds that come together to
make something that hopefully is beautiful or exciting or effective
in whatever way it's intended to be effective, and often
in ways that it wasn't intended to be effective. That's

(01:03:31):
what I'm left thinking about after that conversation with Chris
is I'm going to go back to my beloved records,
to some of Chris's records as well, certainly to Pet Sounds,
and I'm just going to spend some time really honing
in on the less likely instruments and trying to get
a deeper understanding of how every little component can really
impact how a song comes across and how it's experienced

(01:03:53):
and received by you know, the listening public. And then
after that, I'm going to get Josh to dub a
symbol under every episode of major label debut for the
whole time to give it that little extra emotional genus
se Quah you know so. Check the DB's out, check
Chris's music out, check it all out. Check out pet
Sounds if for some reason you don't know pet Sounds

(01:04:14):
by the Beach Boys. The hype is real. It really
is that good. You don't need me to tell you that,
but let me remind you of it. We love doing
these things so much. Just to have an excuse to
talk music with brilliant musicians is like a privilege beyond
any I ever thought I'd be afforded. And I'm so
grateful to Chris for coming on, and I'm so grateful
to you for listening. Thank you so much. We're produced,

(01:04:36):
as always by John Paul Bullock and Josh Hook. Our
wonderful theme music is by Greg Alsop Hell. At the
end of this podcast, do a little deep listen on
Greg Alsop's major label debut theme song. See what he's
doing with the keys in there, See what he's doing
with the bass in there. Greg is a thoughtful, meticulous musician,
and I think that you will not be disappointed if
you check out what he's been doing. Like subscribe, follow

(01:04:59):
review Hell, your friends, your family, your enemies, and check out.
If you're new to the podcast, or newer to the podcast,
check out our back catalog. We've been having amazing conversations
like this one for more than a year now, and
we hope to do it for more than a year
to come, so continue to stay tuned for major label debut.
Thanks again for listening, It's always a pleasure. My name

(01:05:20):
is Graham Wright, and we will return with more tales
from the intersection of art and commerce. See later.

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Chris Stamey - "It's Alright"

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Chris Stamey - "It's Alright"