Co-writing with Morgan Nagler of Whispertown

Graham is joined by Grammy nominated songwriter Morgan Nagler to discuss her career as one of the most sought after co-writers in indie music. In addition to perspectives on songwriting, Morgan talks about navigating creative working relationships, the magic of Kim Deal, and why AI will never replace the human connection at the heart of music. Also, Spindrift.

📻🎚️
Morgan Nagler “Cradle The Pain” (4:09)
Kim Deal and Morgan Nagler “Range On Castle” (21:33)
Phoebe Bridgers “Kyoto” (22:48)
Kim Deal and Morgan Nagler “The Root” (27:33)

Check out Morgan on Bandcamp!

Wanna watch MLD on YouTube?
Need an MLD t-shirt or mug?
And everything else from Major Label Debut!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to Major Label Debut.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
This is the podcast about major label Debuts. I'm the
host of the podcast about Major Label Debuts, and my
name is Graham.

Speaker 1 (00:17):
Right.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Last year, when my band Tokyo Police Club hung it up,
stopped being a band, played our farewell shows, I was,
needless to say, looking for what comes next, for me
to make money and for me to have purpose and
for me to fill my days. And one thing that
a lot of people close to me kept recommending was
why don't you write songs for people? You already write songs,

(00:41):
people already play songs. Just take the songs you write,
sell them to the people, get the money. Shot shot
chot sounds great, right, sounds like a pretty sweet.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
Gig, and indeed it can be a sweet gig.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
But unfortunately for me, it's an extremely important gig in
the music business. And it's not as simple as just
throwing a song on your voice memo and sending it
off to Beyonce for her next record. Instead, it's like
the vocation of an entire, huge part of the music industry,
worth of creative professionals. Song writers. These are not necessarily

(01:16):
what they call artists. They're not the people in the
photo shoots.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
They're not the.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
People doing the interviews. They're not out there being the
face of the music. It's almost like an otur theory
of music, where you know, bands like the Beatles or
led Zeppelin or Queen or Radiohead or whoever, are the
writers of the music, the arrangers of the music, at
least the co producers of the music.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
They are the authors of the.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
Visual identity of the music, videos of the concerts. And
because this group of people embodies the music, they also
kind of are like more than the music. And a
band with as much artistic integrity as many of those
bands I just named, it's still, at the end of
the day kind of leveraging that artistic integrity in the marketplace.
It's not super fun and cool to talk about, but

(02:02):
it's just the truth of the thing.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
But the higher truth of the thing is that.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
That notion, the notion that bands and oteurs and authors
are responsible for the entire creative pipeline, is not the
only way to do business.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
And indeed, in huge.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Parts of the music industry for most of the history
of what we look at as the modern music industry,
that hasn't been how it's done. You might have heard
the phrase tin pan alley before, which describes a place
where people were in like cubicles with pianos churning out
songs all day. A lot of like classic Christmas songs
in particular, were written by guys in cubicles like smoking

(02:37):
cigarettes with a piano who were professional songwriters. They weren't
necessarily a household name. Some of them became household names later.
They wouldn't necessarily be recognizable if they walked down the street.
They were just really, really, really good at writing songs.
And that still exists. Obviously, it exists in the realm
of pop music. You know, rock music fans in particular

(02:58):
are very fond of like looking down their notes at
the credits for a Beyonce song or it's Taylor Swift song,
where there's five credited writers, ten credited writers, twenty credited writers.
Sometimes you know, there's a lot to it, but the
gist of it is, there's also professional.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
Songwriters in indie rock.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
There's also professional songwriters in top forty rock. You know,
probably a lot more of the records that you know
and that you love have availed themselves of the use
of co writers than you might suspect, because for a
long time, bands kind of like didn't talk about it.
And I remember when my band, you know, tried some
co writing sessions and stuff.

Speaker 1 (03:34):
We really weren't sure.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
A if we should do it at all, if it
was like breaking some kind of artistic code, and b
how much we wanted to talk about it. And I've
noticed in more recent years when I listen to interviews
with younger artists, they're not ashamed of it at all.
They just talk about it like it's all in a
day's work, And it is all in a day's work,
and it's right at the intersection of art and commerce
that we're so fond.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
Of talking about on the podcast here.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
And so all of this goes to say that my
guest on the program today is Morgan Nagler.

Speaker 3 (04:28):
Great all the day. It's all the same, that's what
you make.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
Morgan Nagler.

Speaker 2 (04:36):
Morgan, who played in the band Whisper Town, who is
of late releasing music under her own name, but who
also for her day to day vocation, is a co writer.
She's co written songs with Phoebe Bridgers, with Heim, with
The Breeders, and with necessarily way more people. Because you
go in as you'll hear from Morgan. She does a
great job of laying out like what the job literally is.

(04:57):
You go in every day and you write songs on
spat for free in the hopes that they will A
be good and B be used and see be popular.
And if all of those things happened, then you can
make some dough on songs. And if that happens with
one of the songs you write in a year, or
two of the songs you write in a year, sometimes
that means you're doing pretty good. It's a really interesting

(05:18):
way to work. It really removes a lot of the bullshit.
You know, you don't need to do the song and
the dance to sell the music because that's someone else's
that's their part of the job. And so you concentrate
on the craft of writing music. And it gives Morgan,
and I'm sure it gives every professional songwriter a different
relationship not just with songs and music, but with the

(05:39):
business and the livelihood of art in general. And so
it was amazing to talk to Morgan. She is like
an extraordinarily clear minded person, and I was really amazed
at how easy it was to sort of like understand
what she does all day, which I know in a
sense is kind of like it's not complicated you go
write songs, but what it means to go in and

(06:01):
write songs in that way, especially to someone like me
who's used to like jamming and waiting for creative inspiration
to strike, to hear someone who does it literally for
work is really refreshing and really fascinating. And it was
a great conversation with Morgan. And I'll stop rambling so
that you could hear it without further ado. My conversation

(06:22):
with Whispertown member, solo singer and songwriter and artist and
accomplished co writer Morgan Nagler. Hi Morgan, Hi, how are you?

Speaker 1 (06:51):
Wow?

Speaker 3 (06:52):
How are you?

Speaker 1 (06:53):
I'm really good, Thank you.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
I'm excited to talk to you about all of your
workings throughout your year career as a musician. You know,
this show has sort of bizarrely evolved into like a
low key informal anatomy of the music business. You know,
we've talked to lots of musicians, couple of producers, a publicist,

(07:15):
someone from a record label, but someone we've never talked
to is a songwriter. And in my experience playing in
a band and rocking through the music industry. I found
that to be one of the things that gets talked
about the least, and I think that's starting to change
with like the new generation of upcoming superstars. But where

(07:37):
I came from, I think there was sometimes almost some
like embarrassment about the notion of songwriters even existing outside of,
you know, the artistic purity of the band itself. And
I'm really really curious to get your perspective on that.
I almost feel a little shy to ask you questions
about co writes and stuff you've done, And is that

(07:57):
it's that something you've experienced.

Speaker 3 (07:59):
No feel shy, but but I do.

Speaker 4 (08:01):
I agree, And I kind of came up very much
in the DIY.

Speaker 3 (08:08):
Kind of like.

Speaker 4 (08:08):
Punk rock mentality, where the thought of needing help, you know,
to like it's like, no, I'm a songwriter. I would
never you know, it did hold this kind of space
of yeah, making you not legit. And it's interesting because like,
I've really only been doing songwriting on this level where

(08:31):
I'm doing it every single day since about twenty twenty
one and up until that point, to be honest, even
though I've been writing songs and performing in many different
projects for you know, more.

Speaker 3 (08:42):
Than twenty years.

Speaker 4 (08:44):
I never felt like I was in the music business
at all, you know, I was just.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
Doing my thing in my own way.

Speaker 4 (08:51):
And now I'm like, okay, now I'm in the music
business like I you know.

Speaker 3 (08:56):
Now I'm like seeing how it all works.

Speaker 4 (08:58):
But yeah, speaking to the creatives of it, it's amazing
to collaborate.

Speaker 3 (09:03):
You know.

Speaker 4 (09:03):
There's of course something to be said for the purity
of just like one one thought or one perspective, but
generally it just opens up so many doors. And I've
started doing it in my own personal project as well,
because it's been, yeah, just so expanding of the mind.
You know, nobody thinks of any of things the same way.

(09:25):
Everybody thinks of it slightly different, and you're you have
inherent melodies that come out, and inherent phrasings and chord
progressions and all the things, and it's fucking awesome to
get outside of that.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yeah, I think expand is just such the right word.
And I always in my younger days when I subscribed
more to the stereotype that it has to be all
the band or whatever, which was also never true at all,
but anyway.

Speaker 4 (09:50):
Yeah, no, it was part of our kind of things
really shifted I think as musicians got more and more
screwed over the years, where them reality ship that from like, oh,
I would never do a McDonald's commercial, Like I'm not
a sellout to like fuck yeah, like anywhere that it's
going to give me any money so I can continue
doing what I'm doing.

Speaker 1 (10:11):
Yeah, I guess the thing.

Speaker 2 (10:13):
And it kind of gets into that conversation that is
if inasmuch as there is a crux to this podcast,
the idea of art and commerce, and I think what
it boils down to for the people, for the audience,
the people who might accuse a band of selling out
is that they're worried or they believe that it's somehow
going to not be honest. That it's only honest if

(10:33):
it's sort of direct from the songwriter's heart, you know,
sort of just poured out through the vessel of their
hands and lungs onto a record, and that's true, and
then it's just adulterated by any interference. And that's why
I like to use the word expand because it's the opposite, right,
It's like, this is my notion, given more wind beneath

(10:56):
its wings, to travel farther and to be truer yeah.

Speaker 4 (10:59):
And you know it's interesting because you know, some artists
that I work with, maybe writing isn't their strong suit,
and they have an incredibly gifted voice in our performer
or whatever it might be, and all things are equally valid.

Speaker 3 (11:12):
We all have our gifts.

Speaker 4 (11:14):
But then you know, when you're in the room with
another like incredible writer, it's exponential where you can get to.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
It's been amusing to me since my band wound down
and I found myself, you know, searching for new vocations.
Something that a lot of people, especially people who are
maybe you know who don't work in the music business,
they're big ideas well, you should just write songs, sell
your songs to other artists, Like I think people think
there's this brill building by remote going on where we

(11:45):
can all just you know, you write your song and
then you email Britney Spears and she puts it on
a record, and then you buy a house, which we
all wish it was true. But would you be so kind,
I would consider it a personal favor that I can
send this clip to, like my uncle's. Could you sort
of explain broadly what the actual lifestyle of a co
writer is. You mentioned doing it every day I think

(12:07):
maybe that's a good place to start.

Speaker 4 (12:09):
Yeah, I typically do it four to five days a week,
depending on what's going on. If I'm on a writing
trip or some you know, like in Nashville or something,
I might do doubles and it gets kind of crazy.
But yeah, it's basically like having a nine to five job,
but the job typically starts at one pm and ends,

(12:30):
you know, when you finish. So sometimes that's six o'clock
and sometimes that's ten o'clock. But basically I go to
a different studio every day where I meet an artist
and a producer and together we write a song and
record a pretty good sounding demo. So it's very interesting

(12:51):
as far as creative work goes, because I feel like,
typically with creative work, the job is never over and
you're always you know, in it and the next up
in the next step, and then you finish, and it's
like what's next.

Speaker 3 (13:02):
You know what's next.

Speaker 4 (13:03):
So it's pretty awesome because it's satisfying.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
You go in, you spend all day, you write a song.

Speaker 4 (13:09):
When the song's done, my job is done, I'm like, okay, bye,
see you later, and I can go home and feel,
you know, satisfied, and I am still thinking about it
to some degree. I suppose that I can still reach
out and be like, wait, this one lyric should change.
But typically that's it and then the artist takes it
from there, whether they release it or not. And you know,
the rest of the life has nothing to do with me, essentially.

Speaker 1 (13:30):
And it's notable. I think that all of this is
done on.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
Spec Oh yeah, it's very notable. You're not paid by
the hour to go. It's it differs from a nine
to five job in that one critical way.

Speaker 3 (13:42):
Ah, yeah, very much.

Speaker 2 (13:43):
So.

Speaker 3 (13:43):
No, you are not paid at all. It's just your
percentage of the publishing.

Speaker 4 (13:48):
And as we know, in the current climate, there's much
less opportunity for that showing up as real money. It's
all gambling. I mean, art is gambling. And yes, I
actually thought that I would see a little bit more
of like accumulation, you know, just there's so many songs
now that I have publishing on that have been released.

Speaker 3 (14:10):
Yeah, but it's really not super significant. I will say that.

Speaker 4 (14:14):
I think it's always it's just the one thing, and
then you have the house if you win the lottery, you.

Speaker 1 (14:20):
Know, and it is like a lottery.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
I remember when the singer in my band for the
first time, went out to La on a writing trip,
and I went out for part of it just to
keep him company because he was going nuts, just you know,
going to a different stranger's house every day, and he
would be writing with people that had written songs with
Justin Bieber, you know, these huge names, And I was like,
I don't understand, how did you get.

Speaker 1 (14:39):
Access to this guy? You know?

Speaker 2 (14:41):
This, this why you did you have to climb to
the top of a mountain to write with them? And
know they just they write a song with someone every
single day, and like a few of those songs from
the whole year come out. Yeah, but I guess that's
always I mean, we're all writing songs all the time
that either don't come out or come out and don't
make money. And again, it's kind of maybe speaks to
my own bias that I'm so fascinated by the notion

(15:03):
of doing it professionally, by which I guess I mean
going out and doing it with other people on spec
when really it's just still just your creative work, right.

Speaker 3 (15:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (15:13):
So it's like I was saying before, and I've had
this kind of interesting dichotomy going on in my mind
recently because as far as how I'm spending my days
in my life, I'm completely satisfied, Like I'm stoked. I
love my life, I feel I love my work, I
feel you know all, and you know so really the

(15:33):
only missing component is like big money, of course, but
again that's just kind of like true of anything, anything
that's not soul sucking.

Speaker 2 (15:44):
Anything that's not soul sucking. I mean that becomes a
smaller and smaller pool as you were alluding to.

Speaker 4 (15:48):
Yeah, so I feel very grateful in that way that
I really enjoy how I spend my time and feel
valuable as far as contributing to the world, and especially
in the current climate of how horrible everything is where
you can feel so helpless, it does feel good to

(16:09):
kind of be able to contribute to the ether and
to the kind of collective unconscious in a positive way.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah, you spend every day working on something that's at
least joy adjacent, joy adjacent, and you're bringing positivity into
the world on a daily basis, which I think is
a lot more than you know most.

Speaker 4 (16:30):
And kind of connection because I think one of the
major problems of today is isolation and kind of this
feeling of disconnection with how much screen time people spend,
and just again with like how scary the world is.
You know, it makes you feel isolated and out of control.
And so I think music it's number one for me.

(16:55):
It's number one. Like offering is people feel see, they
feel like they're not alone and they connect, you know.

Speaker 3 (17:03):
And that's also the gift of playing live. But it's
the same for recordings. You just don't get to witness it.

Speaker 2 (17:08):
That's so true. Yeah, but it is. It's still enacting
that same magic that music has.

Speaker 4 (17:14):
Yeah, I feel like that's why we connect to things,
even if it's just the melody or whatever that feels
inherent to us. It's like you relate to it, and
that makes you feel connected, and we are all connected.

Speaker 3 (17:26):
It's just harder to notice today.

Speaker 2 (17:28):
And you said that you kind of started co writing
at this level in twenty twenty one, which is also
date wise notable in terms of connection and remoteness and separation.

Speaker 3 (17:41):
Yes, so yeah, I.

Speaker 4 (17:43):
Can tell you just kind of my loose history as
far as co writing is concerned. So I had a
band called Wespertown two thousand and our very first tour,
we were opening up for Jenny Lewis and the Lawson
Twins on their initial tour for for the album Rabbit
fur Coat.

Speaker 3 (18:02):
It was two thousand and six.

Speaker 4 (18:03):
It's one of the few date references I know in
my life as far as like before and after. And
so we were on the tour and my band at
the time was covering Miss Ohio by Gillian Welsh and
when we got to Nashville, I think Jason Bozell, who
is the drummer for Johnny at the time, said, you know,
Gilan Daver coming to the show. And I was like, what, Like,

(18:25):
I can't play the song, and they're like, no, you
have to play the song. Anyways, So we played this
song and then we met them and they got our CD,
which tells you how long ago it was.

Speaker 3 (18:37):
And then we kind of had some mutual friends, so.

Speaker 4 (18:40):
We had you know, ran into each other at parties
and stuff maybe two or three times. And then Dave
Rawlings ended up producing a song for Whispertown which was awesome,
And then I was on tour. I got home and
I got this call from him at midnight and he said, Hey,
what are you doing tomorrow?

Speaker 3 (19:00):
And I just got home from tour.

Speaker 4 (19:01):
I said, I don't know, and he said, well, would
you have any interest in coming out to Nashville and
maybe trying to write some songs with Gill and I
I said sure.

Speaker 3 (19:10):
So he booked the flight in the middle of the
night at midnight for the morning.

Speaker 4 (19:14):
So I kind of, you know, stayed up all night
impact and flew out to Nashville, and I ended up
living with them for about six months writing songs.

Speaker 3 (19:25):
You know.

Speaker 4 (19:25):
It was a very transformative time for me because I
think they were attracted to me because I was so
unschooled and they, you know, both went to Berkeley and
are extremely schooled, and so we kind of helped each
other out in that way, where to me that was
kind of like my went I did go to school
then with them, and it was amazing. And then so okay,

(19:48):
so that was like the first co writing experience. And
then so the him song Falling I think was the
next one, and you know, which was years later, and
I just knew them. Actually, Danielle had been play and
Johnny's band and that's how I met her and her sisters,
and so they had reached out about working on that song. Okay,

(20:09):
So then the next one before I started doing it
was Kim Deal. So also Whispertown opened for the Breeders
in two thousand and eight for a couple of tours,
and they took us to atp and stuff, and we
didn't really make friends at the time because they were
kind of just not hanging out at the venues.

Speaker 3 (20:26):
They were kind of from the van to the stage
and the stage to the van.

Speaker 4 (20:30):
But then later I was living in a place called
the Shack in Echo Park and there was a studio
below and it had tape in the studio and Kim
was recording there and I didn't realize it, but I
guess somebody told her that I lived in the shack
on the driveway. And so I was at home and
all of a sudden I heard kind of somebody yelling

(20:51):
my name.

Speaker 3 (20:52):
So I went outside.

Speaker 4 (20:54):
I was like, somebody calling my name, like, oh, it's
Kim Deal in the driveway, and I'll remember she was like,
what are you up to? Do you have any new
songs and stuff? And I had. I had this old
car and the CD player was broken, but in the
car I had three blank CDs and I knew that
one of them had my new songs on it and
the other ones had some bullshit on them and I

(21:17):
couldn't test them. So I gave her all three CDs
and I was like, one of these, I don't know how.

Speaker 3 (21:23):
You know.

Speaker 4 (21:23):
Maybe a week or two later, I got a text
from her and it said, Hi.

Speaker 3 (21:26):
This is Kim Deal.

Speaker 4 (21:27):
I'm wondering if you would like to get together and
write some songs for no reason at all, and I,
you know, freaked out. Of course, she's the coolest, and
so then we started writing songs together and we did
release a couple of those.

Speaker 3 (21:40):
Songs way in shit.

Speaker 4 (22:00):
So I kind of had these to me very significant
as far as like my taste is concerned, like dream
co writing situations. But you know, there were years in
between them, basically, and I wasn't kind of set up
to do that, and I didn't know how to do
it more, but I wanted to. And then when I
turned forty, kind of similar to what you were saying,
when you're like, hmmm, is there anything else I could do?

(22:24):
And the answer was kind of no for me, and
so I decided to, Yeah, just I made a mental
shift that I wanted to double down on songwriting. And
then basically covid hoppened immediately after that, and I was.

Speaker 3 (22:39):
Like, cool, this should be easy.

Speaker 4 (22:42):
But then yeah, the song that I had randomly just
kind of helped Phoebe Bridgers finish ended up getting nominated
for a Grammy in the end of twenty twenty.

Speaker 3 (22:52):
Call me from play fum the still pay fun So
she cost me taller a moment to tell me been
so sought me. And that's when I called my now manager,

(23:17):
Christian Starbrus, who is amazing.

Speaker 4 (23:20):
And we got it together to kind of get a
team set up in the right way and get a
publishing deal and everything.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
And it is amazing.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
How well I mean, you had a that's a very
impressive selection of credits to sort of be kicking off
your I said, dream like what, but I'm yeah, I'm
sure that the proximity of Kyoto must have been so helpful.
I mean that song, especially in that moment in the
lockdown days, was so ubiquitous and so like cred you know,

(23:53):
so respected.

Speaker 3 (23:54):
Yes, and I give all the credit to her. She
really had it.

Speaker 4 (23:57):
Mostly I just helped her finish, but yes, it was
and it is notable.

Speaker 2 (24:01):
Still, I'm not trying to like get into the weeds
on you know, I'm sure some of this stuff is
kind of nobody's business as to who does what on songs,
but it's so tantalizing to me.

Speaker 1 (24:11):
I love that song. I love that record, And to
hear you say.

Speaker 2 (24:13):
You know, she was mostly finished and I just sort
of helped her finish it. Maybe in a more broad sense,
you don't have to speak to exactly the process of
that song.

Speaker 1 (24:21):
I'm not trying to bust anyone's you know.

Speaker 2 (24:23):
Inner sanctum, but I'd love to know what you might
mean by something like, hey, here's a piece of music
that's eighty five percent of the way there. I know
it changes song to song, but is it sometimes it's like, oh,
we just need one more lyric or is it a
melodic thing or is it all?

Speaker 3 (24:37):
In this case, that was and that is not.

Speaker 4 (24:39):
That is not like how my normal Like this was
just random because we were neighbors. Okay, so yes, she
just was stuck on a lyric basically, and lyrics are
kind of my my number one passion.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
Does it often work that way in the in the
co writing world. Sorry from my ami, sure questions, but
this is this is genuinely there are so many things
I've been curious about about this job in particular and
so I'm just assuaging my own curiosity and I thank
you for your generosity with.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
That and apologize to the podcast listeners.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
It's great Graham's special episode just for themselves boring.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
Yep, that's every episode.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
Will people have calling cards as much as Oh, if
you need a lyrics, you want Morgan, or if you
need a bridge, or if you need you know, if
you're looking for that one extra special chord, you want
to call Jimmy the chord Man.

Speaker 3 (25:30):
Yeah, I think that people do.

Speaker 4 (25:31):
I think it's I think it's a little more rare
it's normally, but people do, Like I've heard of this
one woman who only does melody, not lyrics or you know,
top line melody, doesn't play an instrument and does it
you know, So yes, people do, but also typically it
kind of falls into two categories, which is kind of

(25:52):
the musical bad as I call it, and the top line,
which is the lyrics and melody of the vocal. And
so I'm a top liner Basically I play guitar and
I write my own songs on guitar, and I do
in sessions also, but that's not you know, I play
Cowboy chords, so that's not really my offering typically, I love.

Speaker 2 (26:13):
I was so thrilled when I learned the phrase top line,
which people will go in and they'll be a bed
of music and they'll sing over it and they'll sort
of be almost freestyling melody and lyrics, right, like pulling
out of your head.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
I think that's so. I mean, that's pure magic to me.

Speaker 4 (26:30):
Oh, I have a good story about so when I
first got when I first started writing, or the first
day I was writing with Kim Deal. I got over
there and she had a four track like a taskim
you know, tape four track, and she she had like
maybe three drums kind of set up, and she was like, okay,
you bress record.

Speaker 3 (26:49):
I'm like okay, so I press.

Speaker 4 (26:53):
Record and she just plays the drums for like two
minutes or whatever and then looks up and I'm like
okay stop.

Speaker 3 (26:59):
And then he was like, okay, now you sing. I'm
like what So.

Speaker 4 (27:05):
I mean, I'll never forget because she had I don't
remember what the you know, summon seeing microphone like hanging
in the room, and yeah, I just had to go,
like you said, freestyle, you just go up to the microphone.
There was not even a tone, no pitch. I mean,
it was just just drums, and it's like psychotherapy. You're like,
what's going to come out in front of like the coolest,

(27:27):
most talented person on planet Earth?

Speaker 1 (27:29):
Yeah, and what came out.

Speaker 4 (27:32):
This line I'm happy for you, but I feel like crying,
which ended up one of the songs that we released.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, and that song is so amazing and it has
You've taught me something about Kim Deal that makes so
much sense of her.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
Her music is so elemental.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
Maybe there's like a real rhythmic, human, honest sound to it,
and the idea of like playing some drums and then
singing over them really speaks to that.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
That's like, that's the that's it, that's the song.

Speaker 4 (28:24):
I have to take this opportunity just to speak to
her or magic, because I think it's so rare that
someone is as dedicated. And you know, she's such a
perfect example because she couldn't have a more singular.

Speaker 3 (28:43):
Like sound, like it's so pure, it's the purest.

Speaker 4 (28:47):
Yet she is doing co writes, not always but sometimes
you know what I mean. So that really speaks to
kind of the earlier part of our conversation. Yeah, it
does not sacrifice you know, your complete and distinct imprint.
Writing together was incredible. But I guess it was last
year when she kind of when she had just finished

(29:08):
recording her solo album, they went into rehearsals. There was
no tour book yet or anything that she was she
was calling it proof of concept, so she was just
kind of trying to play with the band, and so
she had me come into sing harmonies during that process,
and so I kind of got to witness her in
this other way of bringing these recordings to life, and

(29:33):
it's the most inspiring thing I've ever witnessed. She's just,
you know, down to the nuance of like how the
like you could be playing the part perfect, but how
does it feel? Is it like each tiny little detail
And she's just so good about figuring out how to
communicate that and like get it to this.

Speaker 3 (29:55):
Special special place.

Speaker 4 (29:57):
I just have never seen anything like it in a
lit performance. And it's in the writing too, And you
know that that kind of care goes into the recordings.
I mean, I think on the song we are talking
about the root, which is the name of the song
what I'm happy for you, but I feel like crying.
We went into maybe three different studios to record it
after and we ended up with the demo at least

(30:21):
of the drums, you know, because that's how much you
know she cares about it, just retaining this very specific energy.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
I mean, that song has such a great energy and
is that are you singing it in unison with her?
Great sounds amazing. The music video, which is filmed through
the backup camera of a car is I was thrilled
to see it too, because I've I've always been like,
why has no one done that yet?

Speaker 1 (30:46):
And it turns out I should have known someone has
and it was Kim Deal.

Speaker 3 (30:49):
Yeah, who better exactly.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
So when you started doing more frequent co writes in
twenty twenty one, did you have to start like this
on and zoom on computers? Did you ever do any
of those sessions or were you able to start bubbling
up with people?

Speaker 3 (31:05):
No, yeah, we did, let's see.

Speaker 4 (31:08):
Yeah, it was still some was on zoom, which of
course is not ideal, but it's kind of not the
worst depending on who the people are and if both
people play it's the only thing that's really difficult is
the delay.

Speaker 3 (31:23):
I see.

Speaker 4 (31:23):
It was one person's playing guitar and you're trying to
sing to it. It's kind of but it's obviously better
to be in the room and be exchanging that kind
of energy. But yeah, I do remember having like sessions
outside where I live and the yacht, like, oh, yes.

Speaker 3 (31:35):
One two kids came over to write it.

Speaker 4 (31:37):
They had their amps and guitars and I had like
the extension chord going outside to set it all up.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
That's really beautiful though, that's really idyllic.

Speaker 4 (31:45):
Yeah, yeah, really cool, but kind of those writing sessions typically,
so I guess that there was one that had a producer,
but it's difficult once you have a producer. Also, like
trying to it works if you're just writing the song
and not making the demo basically.

Speaker 1 (32:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
Well that's so different too from you know, the the
olden days of professional songwriting, where you'd be in a
cubicle with a piano and then I don't know if
you'd file your sheet music or whatever. Now you can
make the record as you write it. I mean, I'm
sure you have a home studio setup. I'm looking at
my home studio setup right now, and I like a
two years ago, I had to take all of my

(32:22):
computer shit down and put it away and replace it
with a tape recorder because I wasn't writing songs anymore.
I was fiddling with parts and textures, and I'd be like, oh, yeah,
this guitar iff is great. It just needs like eight
more days of me fucking around with pads under it,
and then then I can start writing the music and
the lyrics to the song. And of course I have
eight million started demos that have no song to them.

(32:44):
They're just bits floating there uselessly, and I had to refocus.
I know, the goal of a songwriting session is not
to not finish the song, but how much priority do
you put on getting.

Speaker 4 (32:55):
There the song is finished? I would say in ninety
nine percent of the time.

Speaker 1 (33:00):
Really.

Speaker 4 (33:01):
Yeah, There's been a couple times where maybe the artist
is just like, ah, I'm just feeling weird, I gotta
go or something, you know, But typically you just finish
if I mean, yeah, occasionally it's kind of a different
circumstance where you're just looking for hooks or something like that.

Speaker 3 (33:18):
But generally you finish the.

Speaker 4 (33:20):
Song and maybe it evolves further later you end up
changing the lyrics to the second verse or whatever. But
but yeah, everybody's kind of there, and that's kind of
what's cool about it being in this professional setting where
everybody's meeting up and spending their time, whereas when you're
by yourself, you're like, Oh, I'm gonna go do the

(33:42):
lundering now or whatever, and I'm gonna look on this
again later or tomorrow. But it's like, no, you've set
aside this time. You have a whole day. Yeah, you're
finishing the song.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
Well, it must be really interesting for you to be
going in with all these different artists, as you sort
of alluded to their You know, sometimes artists have different
levels of not sensitivity, but sensitivity is their own innercompass.
They might Oh, i'm feeling weird, I'm going to get
up and walk away, or oh i'm feeling weird, I'm
going to double down and work like triple hard or whatever.
And you're I imagine you have to sort of pace

(34:13):
yourself to the pace of the person you're writing with.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
That must be a skill all into itself.

Speaker 3 (34:19):
Yeah, the job is kind of different every day.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
Yeh.

Speaker 3 (34:23):
It always involves some level of therapy.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
Well, that's songwriting, I mean it's.

Speaker 4 (34:28):
Yeah, you have to get it to a very real
place quickly, you know, so you kind of usually just
dive right into something. And you know, oftentimes it's in
that initial thirty minutes to an hour where you're kind
of talking, especially when you don't. Now, I have a
lot of relationships where we already you know, know each

(34:49):
other and kind of.

Speaker 3 (34:49):
Know what's going on in each other's lives. But if not,
you've got to like dive in there.

Speaker 4 (34:56):
And really, oftentimes I'll pull just like something they say,
oh that's the title, yep, you know, when you're just
kind of talking about whatever's going on in your life
and how you're dealing with it.

Speaker 2 (35:08):
Yeah, something that really seems so obvious once I heard it,
but delighted me when I first heard some you know,
somebody mentioned in a radio interview about oh, yeah, we
were just we went in and we were just chatting
and we were talking about, you know, such and such
feelings that we were having. And then they said this
sentence and that became that's the title of the song,
and that's the hook of the song. Yeah, And it
fully came in of just an honest conversation between people,

(35:31):
which is I guess that's what you're trying to do
with a song, is make something that sounds true and
representative and cuts to the heart of something.

Speaker 4 (35:38):
Yeah, and another thing that I kind of learned because
initially I was kind of preparing every night, which is impossible,
you know. I was kind of trying to come up
with ideas to bring into the room, you know, not
knowing and and now I basically don't do that at all.
Maybe if I have an idea on the way over,
you know, lyrically or concept wise.

Speaker 3 (35:59):
But what I realize is.

Speaker 4 (36:02):
That typically, you know, you're working with an artist, it's
their voice. They don't they probably don't want your idea
that you already have, I mean, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (36:11):
Yeah, you know, it was.

Speaker 3 (36:12):
Interesting actually mad ideas.

Speaker 4 (36:13):
After the first time I wrote with her, she was like,
she's like, do you think that like being an actress
kind of informed how you are in these rooms? Because
I feel like you're saying what I am trying to say,
you know, And I hadn't thought about it in that way,
But really it is that you are You're like, okay,

(36:34):
I'm you. Yeah, you know, you have to embody them
if you are trying to create something that is going
to be in their voice. And so yeah, it's a
lot of it is kind of just like encouraging what
you're finding interesting about their story and what they actually
have to say, and so yes, like pulling from what

(36:54):
they're saying in a conversation. It's like, Okay, now we're
getting somewhere, Like that's what they're connected to. They're not
going to be connected to some you know thing from
your own life.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
You must have had to learn a lot really quickly.
I mean it sounds like you had six months of
songwriter school.

Speaker 3 (37:10):
Yeah, and you know, I also write.

Speaker 4 (37:12):
I mean I write a lot on my own, just
whether I'm releasing or not, I'm always writing. But this
is kind of a different muscle, as we've been discussing,
because the job, the role is kind of different in
every room.

Speaker 3 (37:25):
And yeah, yes, I did.

Speaker 4 (37:27):
I feel like the first let's see twenty twenty one,
twenty twenty two. Yeah, like the first two years I
was kind of saying yes to everything and just really
trying to learn and absorb all the different worlds because
there really are a lot of different worlds and different
ways that it's done.

Speaker 3 (37:43):
And sometimes when somebody's new.

Speaker 4 (37:46):
To co writing and they say, well, how is it done,
you know, it's like, well, literally every different you know,
it's it's different every day.

Speaker 1 (37:53):
And you're bringing your thing.

Speaker 2 (37:55):
I mean, I know something that people around me talk
about a lot is getting over the security around going
in and feeling like you need to measure up to
someone else's standards imagined by you, when it's really like
they if they called you in to write with them,
they want what you have to offer.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
They're not looking for another them. They asked you it is.

Speaker 4 (38:14):
You have to let go of, yeah, fear of judgment essentially,
you know, you just have to totally be a nerd.

Speaker 2 (38:23):
And is maybe is that something that your acting experience
helped with.

Speaker 4 (38:28):
Probably, I mean because I started acting when I was five,
so my whole life has had an element of well,
dealing with people on a professional level for one, and
also yeah, being kind of seen through a lens.

Speaker 2 (38:44):
Yeah, it's like doing broadcast stuff. You're like, well, I
need to sound like myself, but through a microphone into
a podcast, so it's not just talking. You have to
come up with the skill to sound like yourself.

Speaker 3 (38:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (38:57):
Yeah, it's interesting because I remember when I was kind.

Speaker 3 (39:03):
Of a teenager.

Speaker 4 (39:04):
Starting from when I was a teenager doing acting, I
used to dream of getting a role that.

Speaker 3 (39:11):
Was just like me.

Speaker 4 (39:12):
Like I just was like, oh, if there was you know,
if somebody wrote a character that was just like me,
But that's not acting.

Speaker 3 (39:19):
I wanted to be myself, you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (39:21):
I had spent all this time being other people, and
I thought, you know what, I'd be really good at
being myself. And so I think that's why writing was
so inspiring and eventually led me to shift in gears
to use my own words.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
And that is a speaking of broadcast skill that was
very elegant transition, thank you, into asking about the new
Morgan Nagler project, which is your first project under your
own name and is sort of rolling out as we speak.
You've done a lot of songwriting with Whispertown before. Yes,
how did it feel different? No, knowing what you've learned

(40:01):
since and working the way you've worked since, to go
back into your own room, so to speak.

Speaker 3 (40:07):
Yeah, it feels amazing.

Speaker 4 (40:10):
And yeah, it's all different muscles that are being used
when you're collaborating. And I still find this fascinating because
typically if I'm writing by myself, I almost never know
what I'm going to write about, or have a concept
ahead of time or a title. Even I just pick
up the guitar and just see what comes out, and

(40:31):
sometimes I don't understand it till years later, or you know,
kind of the arc pulls together in some way, but
then you realize later that you know had a different meaning,
Whereas that just does not work typically if you're collaborating,
because you need to be discussing what you're writing about
and kind of coming to a consensus.

Speaker 3 (40:50):
So in that way, it's and sometimes it starts in
the same.

Speaker 4 (40:54):
Way where yeah, you're just going to see what comes out,
but then you have you do have to pick then
what it's about and kind of the folks and how
you're going to frame that.

Speaker 3 (41:02):
So those are very different ways of writing.

Speaker 4 (41:05):
Yeah, so I've yeah, I've been so used to using
the other the muscle of more like conceptual, and I
don't consciously bring that in when I'm writing by myself.

Speaker 3 (41:15):
However I think it, you know, it does seep in.

Speaker 4 (41:17):
So you just have kind of a broader understanding and
so much more experience, and the muscle is in.

Speaker 3 (41:24):
Shape, you know, it's like you're writing so much.

Speaker 4 (41:29):
And then also just kind of like when I'm in
a room with an artist, I'm really trying to kind
of hone in on what is unique about them and
what their you know, unique imprint. And some some artists
are a bit green and they're they're trying to find
their their sound or their angle or whatever it is.

Speaker 3 (41:48):
So it's very fun to kind of look.

Speaker 4 (41:50):
Into that with them, and even with kind of the
larger conversation of AI and stuff, I find it's more
and more interesting. You know, whatever you have that is unique,
that is totally your own voice?

Speaker 3 (42:05):
Is that?

Speaker 1 (42:06):
Is it?

Speaker 3 (42:06):
That is the thing?

Speaker 4 (42:07):
Like, So as far as my own project, yeah, I
just feel kind of really honed in on my vibe,
which feels great to just kind of be natural and
like share what you know, really is not pop songwriting
for myself, and I'm kind of more focused on things

(42:28):
that are leaning more pop yeah, in the co writing world.
So it feels so fun to just kind of like
throw that all out the window.

Speaker 1 (42:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:37):
I was going to ask if there's anything that you
gave yourself permission to be uh lazier about, you know,
when you're writing with yourself.

Speaker 3 (42:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (42:46):
I mean again, it's like I feel like I'm throwing
it all out the window.

Speaker 3 (42:51):
But I think it does seep, It seeps in anyways,
just because it's like.

Speaker 4 (42:54):
Because the muscles are there exactly. But yeah, I remember
when I was younger, I would call it just like
the puke method, where it's just like you just whatever
comes out and that's the song. And Gil and Dave
actually taught me. They're like, you know, because I would
not like parts of my own.

Speaker 3 (43:11):
Songs and be like, but that's the song.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
That's yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:15):
They're like, you know, you can change this part? Like what?

Speaker 4 (43:19):
So now I do that? I mean, I edit myself
a lot more. Sometimes it just comes out and that's
what it is. But but no, I like go back
and edit a lot, which is also liberating.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
What do you tend to tinker with for the longest?
Is it the words? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (43:36):
I weirdly yes, yes, once the kind of thing is established,
usually it's the words that I keep coming back to
make sure just write.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
How do you do?

Speaker 3 (43:46):
Like?

Speaker 2 (43:46):
I have all my lyrics in my notes app and
so I'm that way. I can constantly go in and
delete lines or replacelines, and on the subway I can change.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
I'm like, that's the word. That's the word I needed?
Is has not? Is change?

Speaker 3 (43:58):
Obviously?

Speaker 1 (43:59):
Are you a notes lyricist?

Speaker 3 (44:01):
I am.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
It's so funny how I love to complain about technology
and music. And like I said, I put all my
studio stuff away and everything, But if it wasn't for
voice memos and notes app, I wouldn't be able.

Speaker 1 (44:12):
To do it.

Speaker 3 (44:12):
I don't even know how we did it. I mean
I do.

Speaker 4 (44:14):
I remember I once, I think for about six months
I had moved where I think i'd moved home from.
I lived in Denver for like a brief stint, and
I was younger, and I moved to my mom's and
I pitched a two bedroom tent in her backyard and
had an extension cord out there, and I had my

(44:36):
four track in there and a stereo in there, and
I wrote a bunch of songs in there, and I
remember I had that way of recording, but it was
before smartphones. But I remember just you had to just
play the song one hundred times to commit it to them.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
Yeah, you had to know it.

Speaker 4 (44:56):
There was no reference like which whereas now I like
barely finish it, voice note it. You're like, okay, like
it's done, and you don't have to remember, and I don't.

Speaker 3 (45:05):
I wake up and I'm like, what was that? And
you have to.

Speaker 4 (45:07):
Listen to tell but yeah, I know you used to
just have to play it one hundred times.

Speaker 3 (45:11):
After you wrote it.

Speaker 2 (45:12):
You hear stories of people phone like being away from
home and calling their home and playing into their answering
machine so they could go home and okay, it's on
a tape of some sort.

Speaker 3 (45:20):
Yeah, like I'll remember it at least.

Speaker 2 (45:23):
Do you ever bring a song back that maybe you know,
you did a co write with about on you created
via a co write and then it didn't come out
for whatever reason? Do you ever keep those around for
potential later use under your I know this is just
you getting going under your own name, But are there
any songs you're like Jones in to finally use?

Speaker 3 (45:42):
Yeah, you know, let's see, for this.

Speaker 4 (45:45):
Album we were recorded, I think I ended up recording
a couple that had been from sessions, but I didn't
end up using them for the album. But yeah, it's
I mean, there are certain songs that I love so
much like that I'm obsessed with it. I'm like, how
is this song not out or nobody is you know,
nobody's cut it, And I'm constantly trying to think of

(46:07):
like how it can be out.

Speaker 3 (46:08):
But it isn't really me, you know what I mean, Like,
but it shouldn't be me singing it, so and it
wasn't written that way, so that's that makes sense. So yeah,
it kind of doesn't cross over as much as you
think it would because it's usually conceived through the idea
of a different person being the vessel.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
We're talking a lot about song craft and about you know,
the song itself whatever that means music and lyrics, but
the listening to your new tunes, the thing that struck
me first is that they sound great, and they sound
of a piece, and they sound you know, obviously like
considered sonically. Is that something that ever comes up in

(46:50):
a co write if you're doing demos and stuff, will
things like oh, a guitar sounding this way, or a
riff that's sort of you know, a drum sound that's
like the Phoebe stuff is obviously very sonically rooted.

Speaker 4 (47:02):
I was than any of that for thee Yeah, No,
she would in with the producer after the song was done,
and I wasn't there for any of that. But typically
sometimes that comes up in the room certainly, and kind
of the deeper I am in on a project, like
if I'm writing with the same artists, it probably comes

(47:23):
up a bit more. That being said, usually you're not
spending too much time on that because you just have
the one day and you're mostly just waiting it and
getting it down and it's probably gonna change, you know,
if they end up releasing it. Not always, but so yeah,
you don't focus on that too much usually because it's
kind of would require more time than you have to

(47:46):
get into those details.

Speaker 2 (47:47):
Right then, I guess you're just producing the record at
that point exactly. Yeah, was it fun then to get
to really get your hands on that with your own stuff?
And how early did the sonic vibe of it emerge
in the create process?

Speaker 4 (48:01):
Well, Kyle Thomas and King Tuff is a producer and
he was carving out all of the sounds in that way.

Speaker 3 (48:08):
But yeah, we kind of discussed.

Speaker 4 (48:10):
Actually, my manager, Christian has also been pretty involved in
kind of like the sound and direction.

Speaker 3 (48:15):
He's an amazing creative.

Speaker 4 (48:18):
So yeah, it's kind of I feel like this is
closest that as I've gotten to kind of like what
really feels authentic to me, because I think I've always
kind of been bridging indie rock with kind of a
more Americana or like old school country kind of. And
my voice is kind of like, you know, rough and

(48:39):
unpolished sounding, and so I've kind of tried it with
a more polished production and an unpolished you know, it's
hard to find the right like, but I think that
this is basically as close as we've gotten.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
Him.

Speaker 4 (48:52):
Really stoked on the sound, and again Kyle largely responsible.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
For that well good pick of collaborator, a full, nice
marriage of song and sound. It all sounds of a
piece and like it sounds like what it should sound like.

Speaker 1 (49:05):
You know.

Speaker 3 (49:05):
It feels like that, Yeah, which is a great feeling.

Speaker 2 (49:08):
I guess that's what you're always looking for in the studio.
H do you This is such a vague question. I'm
just kind of hoping that it will travel through the
magic metaphor of music and you'll understand what I'm saying.
Do you have a sense of what kind of lyrics
and what kind of words you like and what you're
reaching for when you're writing, and you know whether that's
what influences you or just what you find what excites

(49:30):
you when it comes out of your brain and your mouth.

Speaker 4 (49:33):
Yes, I think it's finding unique ways to convey common
emotion because I think that language is so limiting, and
I think that the spectrum and nuance of our emotions
are so complex. It's difficult to really convey exactly what

(49:58):
something feels like. So that's why I think kind of
getting more creative with the use of language and kind
of presenting things in a different way can kind of
like twist it to be more specific. It's like the
word love, for example, like I love you, it's like, well, yeah,
I love like my neighbor's child, I love my love,

(50:20):
or I love my mother, like it's all it's all
so different and it's the same word. So the word
just isn't good enough, so you kind of have to
find unique ways to kind of contextualize it. So yeah,
it's basically the poetry part that interests me.

Speaker 1 (50:37):
I'm happy for you, but I want to cry.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
That's like what That's such a perfect song, not just
lyric but like notion because it's dissonance right there. Everyone
knows what that feels like right away, and yet I've
never heard someone say that literally or conceptually in that way.

Speaker 4 (50:55):
Yeah, And I really I respect Kim because for many reasons,
but she really likes to boil things down and that
is so beautiful. Again, It's like, I guess it's a
version of editing, but it really is kind of like
really boiling down to essence in a way that everybody gets.
But it's still complex if you're thinking about it, you

(51:17):
know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (51:18):
Yeah, because there's also so there's seventy years of popular
music behind us that have said versions of these things,
and the word love has been wrung out every possible
conceivable way you would think. Yeah, and especially with like
TikTok and social media now, just looking for one line
of a song that says something universal that can be
applied to any number of funny videos, sad videos, et cetera.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
I mean it almost it's pushing. I don't know how
much TikTok comes into.

Speaker 4 (51:46):
Your conversation about that, like at all, Like I'm still
kind of when you were talking about hits too, I really,
even though that's basically my job is to try and
write hits. Yeah, I'm just like, no, we're just going
to try and write a good song because the truth
is that, like many hits, they're totally weird.

Speaker 3 (52:08):
That's why they're ahead.

Speaker 4 (52:09):
They're like unique, you know, So I think it's it's
a trap to kind of frame it that way in
your mind, because you end up sounding more similar to
things that already exist, which.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
Is yes, yeah, and it is. I mean there's people
out there, you know. I always think of Max Martin
and listen, no smoke to the great Max Martin.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
His skills set is obvious.

Speaker 2 (52:29):
But there's that story of him hearing Maps by Aias
and thinking like, oh, they left money on the table
with this, this could be a better song, by which
he meant a more commercially successful song, which then led
through the creative magic path to writing Since You've Been Gone,
which is certainly a more commercially successful song than Maps
and is a great fucking song. But is it as

(52:52):
great a song as Maps by Aias so emotional?

Speaker 1 (52:56):
I would say definitively not.

Speaker 2 (52:57):
That's one of the best songs of the set, probably
so far, and it's so itself. I've never heard a
song that sounds like that. You doesn't sound like what
any suit would think a hit is. And yet and yet.

Speaker 3 (53:09):
Yeah, and so that's kind of like what you're after.
So you really have to throw away all notions of
what makes a hit and just write something that you
think is cool.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
There's enough people out there who are like hit scientists.
The nation of Sweden has that market corner.

Speaker 4 (53:23):
Yeah, and that's just kind of I just feel like
I don't have much to offer in that world.

Speaker 3 (53:28):
So why I even bother?

Speaker 2 (53:30):
You know, since this is the major label debut podcast,
I got to ask about your experience with labels in
the co writing world. Have you ever had any contact
or notion of, you know, record label folks haunting the
studio or haunting the co write, or any idea that, oh, geez,
there's some pressure coming down from the label that we

(53:51):
got to write a real good one today, or it
needs to be slower, it needs to be fast, blah
blah blah.

Speaker 4 (53:55):
I don't think anyone's ever been like physically in the
room or anything, but yes, coming from the artists. Pretty commonly,
they're talking about how they're either going to ignore what
is coming from the label or how they want to
aim it in that direction.

Speaker 3 (54:12):
It's always so funny.

Speaker 4 (54:14):
I feel like anytime you're like, Okay, yeah, we're going
to write something upbeat and we're going to start with
the drums, and like it just it doesn't matter what
you say, you say you're going to do that, and
then it just is what it is, you know, But yes,
I do hear complaints. Sometimes people are stoked, but you
end up hearing the complaints more in the space that

(54:34):
I'm in, because it's hard when I've never had, you know,
a major label, like deciding having the control to decide
which songs you're going to release.

Speaker 3 (54:45):
That's pretty crazy.

Speaker 1 (54:47):
It's pretty great about it.

Speaker 2 (54:50):
Now you must occasionally work with people who are new
to this kind of collaboration. Yes, how do you help
people be comfortable getting into it? And do you feel
like you have like a set of Usually I.

Speaker 4 (55:02):
Usually recommend that they be as vocal as they can.
I think I think, particularly with like a young green artist,
is that they don't feel comfortable in the room to
say what they like or don't like, and maybe they're also.

Speaker 3 (55:17):
Feeling shy about participating more.

Speaker 4 (55:20):
And then it's like, well, that's not helpful for you
or for me or anybody if you end up with
a song that you don't like.

Speaker 3 (55:27):
Yeah, you know what I mean. So I'm like, if
we're going.

Speaker 4 (55:31):
In a direction, even if four hours in and you're like,
I don't like, just say I don't like this song,
let's start over or or let's totally change the chorus
or whatever it is, to just like be totally vocal,
because yeah, it's it's theirs in the end that we're
all there for them.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
Yeah, nobody wants them to write a bad or mediocre
or pointless song.

Speaker 3 (55:51):
No.

Speaker 4 (55:52):
And I think I've seen now I'm kind of like
honed in on people that I like their style as
far as working relationship go. But I have seen yeah,
producers trying to really push something into kind of like
what they think is a hit or whatever it is.
To me, I'm like, this is point you can tell
that they don't like this, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
But it is like there is a way, And you know,
this is something I learned from producers and stuff, good producers,
the difference between changing what you're working on into something
different and changing it into a more.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
A clearer version of itself.

Speaker 2 (56:30):
And it seems like the good collaborators are they're doing
exactly what you're saying. It's about making the voice of
the artist clearer, louder.

Speaker 4 (56:39):
Yeah, and it's I don't know why I'm drawing the correlation.
I thought of this earlier in our conversation because I
remember when I was doing acting, it was very common
to discuss like making a choice, like you make a choice,
you make a bold choice, you and you do it.
I actually I heard let's see what was the show, oh,

(57:00):
Northern Exposure, the guy who is kind of like, I
don't know, see X Military or he's.

Speaker 3 (57:08):
Kind of do you know the show?

Speaker 1 (57:09):
Not well enough to know who is ex military?

Speaker 3 (57:12):
Okay, well it won't be as entertaining for you.

Speaker 4 (57:14):
But basically he decided in the audition that he was
going to just drop down and do pushups for the
whole scene and did the dialogue like doing push ups
the whole time, and you know, he got the job.
He made a choice, he made a bold choice, you know.
And that's kind of in acting that that always came up.
And it's the same in music. It's like, yeah, but

(57:36):
go out on a limb, like make a crazy choice.
So you hear it a lot in mixing, or like yeah,
just make the you know, electric guitar line so much
louder than everything else, Like even though it doesn't make sense,
it ends up being what is unique and kind of
gives it this dynamic feeling that wouldn't exist otherwise.

Speaker 2 (57:53):
Yeah, the idea that there's musical hooks and melodic hooks
and lyrical hooks, and also there's sonic hooks, and yeah,
the hook of a song can be look how loud
this guitar is. Yeah, and if the rest of the
song is good, you know, I don't think you could
make a shitty song a hit with a loud guitar.

Speaker 1 (58:08):
Maybe you can. Maybe that's the secret.

Speaker 2 (58:11):
Just yeah, turn up the guitar, just one pick one weird,
get the fourth guitar track, make it too loud, and
then release.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
We've just cracked the code success and sows there you go.
Then that's how you song.

Speaker 3 (58:23):
Right, It's all hits from now on.

Speaker 1 (58:26):
How has it been getting out on the road again.

Speaker 4 (58:28):
It's been amazing. It's been, you know, perfectly tailored to
what would make for an amazing experience for me. Yeah,
getting to open for Kim Deal and reconnect with her,
and we got to in her encore, we performed the
songs that we had written together.

Speaker 3 (58:47):
It's amazing, so fun and kind.

Speaker 4 (58:49):
Of full circle and just life path reaffirming.

Speaker 3 (58:54):
And then ryle O Kylie.

Speaker 4 (58:55):
You know, I grew up with those guys, so it
was just it's all magical to witness these audiences that
have been starved for seventeen years. I mean it was
really really powerful and special. So I was just so
happy to have been there.

Speaker 1 (59:12):
Really, that's wonderful.

Speaker 2 (59:15):
I'm so glad it's a different you know, because I
think part of the hey, maybe Graham, you should get
into songwriting instead of being in a touring band is
people assuming correctly that it's a a more comfortable or
at least a more normal lifestyle for like a you know,
a forty year old adult to be living, rather than
getting in the van or even on the bus for

(59:36):
months at a time. Yeah, but like you said, you're
participating in the communal experience of music in a way
that you don't get to witness or be present for.
And it must be nice to get out there and
get some kudos directly.

Speaker 4 (59:50):
Yeah, And I just speaking to kind of the earlier
part of our conversation about connection and community, and it's
just there's really nothing like that exchange of energy, whether
I'm on the stage and exchanging it with the audience
or I'm in the audience exchanging it with the performer.

(01:00:11):
It's so special and again kind of coming back to
the AI thing, which has been you know, just topical.
In general, live performance is not interesting if it's artificial,
you know what I mean, Like, who wants to see
that outside of maybe the novelty of like you know,

(01:00:32):
three D ghost version or whatever. But like, sure, it's
the mistakes that are interesting. It's the differences, it's the nuances.
It's like, this is what we have, this is human
And I do think that that's that value is not
going to be lost. It's the value is going to
become greater.

Speaker 3 (01:00:48):
And so.

Speaker 4 (01:00:51):
It was kind of a great reminder of like saying
that that is very true and how meaningful it is
to people to connect.

Speaker 3 (01:00:59):
On that kind of a level.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
Yeah, that is my hope with the whatever the AI
thing ends up being, specifically with music and art in general.
Is like, okay, well, maybe the hit scientists do need
to be worried. You know, maybe they'll get AI good
enough that it can take my demo and turn it
into a the average of everything that's been on top
forty radio for the last five years, which is an

(01:01:21):
improvement by exactly one metric. But then the humanity is
going to become in demand again, and maybe we'll get
off the grid. And we'll get off the you know,
the melodine, and we'll get off the like the ability
in computers to fix your shit, to make it perfect.
Maybe we'll stop fixing it all the time because now

(01:01:42):
the thing that distinguishes it is that it's imperfect and
that we're out of tune here, the bend is wrong,
or there's whatever.

Speaker 4 (01:01:47):
Which brings us back again to the unique imprint and
that being the important thing. And it will replace a lot,
it will it will replace background music. It already is,
you know, Yeah, but there is always going to be
something that yeah, it's only interesting because of the person
that thought of it. It no longer is interesting if

(01:02:10):
it's just generated like that is where the interest is.
And I think with live performance, I was kind of
trying to embrace kind of different arrangements and you know,
different versions of the like different feel for the because
it's like, yeah, you can just if you want to
hear the record, just play the record. But as far

(01:02:30):
as like what I do and what a lot of
my peers do, I think that, yeah, that is not
threatened by AI, and so we just need to like
lean in even more to like our weirdness.

Speaker 1 (01:02:45):
Hell, yes, that would be.

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
My one wish for all music in general is that
everyone just keeps leaning into their weirdness.

Speaker 4 (01:02:51):
And we My friend Greta Morgan is amazing and it's
gone through a traumatizing but ultimately beautiful kind of life
experience of losing her voice. Yeah, and she has a
memoir that just came out called The Lost Voice. At
her book event in Los Angeles, she performed a couple
of songs and her voice is like, you know, completely

(01:03:12):
different and lower and warble and whatever. And it used
to kind of be like this very clear bell, but
I was like this though like that, it used to
be more perfect, like closer to what AI would do essentially,
you know what I mean. I'm like, but this is
unique and beautiful and interesting and like all and compelling

(01:03:33):
and all the things.

Speaker 3 (01:03:34):
Like.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Yeah, there's a million versions of million versions of Hallelujah.
Many of them are sung by more technically gifted singers
than Leonard Cohen, Rufus Wainwright, Jeff Buckley. Yes, but compared
to the Leonard Cohen version of Hallelujah, they're like they're
all just on the surface and his goes down to.

Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
The bottom of the Marianna's trench.

Speaker 2 (01:03:53):
Yeah, exactly, so everyone get back to chain smoking cigarettes.
That's what we need. More more gravelly voiced parody. Major
Liberally Do does not support big tobacco, only small tobacco.
Speaking of Leonard Cohen, you mentioned poetry, and I wanted
to ask you who your favorite poets are.

Speaker 3 (01:04:14):
I mean, like roomy haffee.

Speaker 4 (01:04:17):
It's like I kind of am mostly drawn towards these
like kind of elemental, shorter, kind of like really distilled poems.

Speaker 3 (01:04:29):
Yeah, I'm trying. I mean I like all the Mary Oliver,
all the like the.

Speaker 4 (01:04:33):
Classics, the chick ass poets. Yeah, but weirdly, I'm kind
of like, even though you know it's inspiring and I
do want to do it more, but I kind of
maybe I'm a little too too obsessed with kind of
this idea of like not being influenced. And I'm like
that with music also, Like I listened to a lot

(01:04:56):
of music for research purposes and stuff like with what
I'm doing, and I do listen to other stuff as well,
but like I like to sit in silence on the
drive and like see what comes to my mind and
kind of yeah, like spend my time in that space
kind of like honing in again on what's like unique

(01:05:18):
and what I have to say, versus being influenced. Yeah,
I mean we're inherently influenced by so many things.

Speaker 3 (01:05:23):
But I do try and kind of like.

Speaker 4 (01:05:26):
Stay away from because I don't want to like copy stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:05:30):
Even by mistake.

Speaker 2 (01:05:32):
I find that I am very easily influenced. And if
I'm for instance, if I'm reading a book, whatever the
book is, if I go to try and write prose
or even like a long email, I'll find myself copying
the style of whatever book I'm reading, and so it
will vary wildly from.

Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
Book to books.

Speaker 2 (01:05:48):
So I feel that I need to watch out because
if I let myself be influenced, I won't do anything
interesting with it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:54):
I'll just copy it.

Speaker 4 (01:05:55):
I mean, yeah, It's like, on one hand, it's great
to be of it's inspiring, so that's cool, you know,
and it's inspiring you to do something. And then on
the yeah, sometimes I'll even find just because I'm dealing
with so many melodies on a daily basis, when.

Speaker 3 (01:06:09):
I'm writing on I'm like, is this what is that?

Speaker 1 (01:06:12):
You know?

Speaker 4 (01:06:12):
And it is something that was like from a session
or something I don't want to I think it's great
to be inspired and to of course read poetry.

Speaker 3 (01:06:21):
Obviously it wasn't a music, but.

Speaker 4 (01:06:23):
Yeah, there there is to me, there's like there is
some kind of warning or danger about it, but I
don't want to take away from it because it's obviously
amazing and beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:06:34):
Yeah, yeah, there's some I mean, it's all this sort
of vaguely mystical.

Speaker 1 (01:06:38):
Right way, wrong way, Like you know, you read.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
And it stirs up your feelings, and your feelings land
back down in a new pattern, and you just trust
that where they've landed is an okay place and you
use that as the fodder for whatever, And.

Speaker 3 (01:06:50):
So yeah, I do like I like reading.

Speaker 4 (01:06:52):
I like hm, yeah, things that kind of aren't exactly
music and kind of drawing inspiration from those things cuse
scenting your.

Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
Life likely to you know, will you like, if you
booked a session next week with someone you'd never worked
with before, would you make a point of familiarizing yourself
with their music beforehand?

Speaker 1 (01:07:12):
Or would you be more interested in going and kind
of blind?

Speaker 4 (01:07:15):
I usually will listen to at least a song or two,
don't have an idea of where you know where they're
coming from. But then you know, oftentimes people want to
go somewhere else, so we also will discuss like what
they're envisioning for the future. But I think it's it's
helpful to kind of know where they're coming from at least.

Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
Thank you so much for answering all of my insolent
questions about way what you do every day. I mean,
it's just amazing to me that there's this whole, huge
part of the industry I've worked in for two decades
that I have no I've never done a co writing.

Speaker 1 (01:07:47):
Session with someone that wasn't like in my band or
even those I found kind of difficult.

Speaker 4 (01:07:52):
So it's and I think that's a lot of people's experience.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
Well, because then you bring in a whole other It's like, hey,
here's a guy that I have twenty that's like my
brother that I have twenty years of history with, and
so now we're going to try and clear our minds
and collaborate purely.

Speaker 4 (01:08:05):
And that's but then there's the benefit of that you
know each other, you speak the same language.

Speaker 3 (01:08:10):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
Maybe that's why jamming is a good way to write
together as a band, because then you're like, hey, you
know what language we speak purely with each other playing music.
We don't have to have a conversation that devolves into
some kind of weird you know her I can't remember.

Speaker 4 (01:08:24):
I think it was some kind of podcast, but it
was about how when you're playing music with people, you're
like your brain waves actually sink into the rhythm.

Speaker 3 (01:08:35):
It's like, you know, hypnosis, It's like, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:08:39):
A rhythm, but so you're you are actually kind of
like sharing brains in those moments of jamming.

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
I'm glad that science bears that out because it feels
very true to me. But you know, sometimes you do
wonder if you're just totally off yea, off the map.
Not this time, though. We always wrap up the interview
by asking what we feel is kind of the most
important question, which is what the artist was eating when

(01:09:07):
they recorded you know, whatever album we're talking about. But
I'll put it to you I guess a little more broadly,
which is, how do you incorporate the need for material
sustenance into a co writing session where you know you're
trying to finish the song, you're on a limited time frame.
Do you have do you find the same meals come
up often? Do you do you request anything start starvation.

Speaker 4 (01:09:30):
Right now, but it is kind of yeah, everyone always
has like a bar. I'd like try and remember to
bring some nuts or you know, like and you can
of course order food, but again you're dealing with limited
time and you do this every day, so you're not
really trying to like extend it by an hour most

(01:09:51):
days by like going out to.

Speaker 3 (01:09:52):
Eat in the middle.

Speaker 4 (01:09:53):
And like I said, the sessions normally begin at one o'clock,
so right, you got to eat before. But I always
and I think other people don't too. That's why there's
always the bars and whatnot. And then usually you kind
of finish up at dinner time, so it usually works out.
But otherwise, yeah, you just order pustmates and you get

(01:10:14):
a salad and everything's great.

Speaker 1 (01:10:16):
Are you tea water? Coffee neutral?

Speaker 4 (01:10:20):
I love coffee, and I think I was falling too
deeply into the afternoon session coffees. Yes, I know that
to be ordered, but I have a lot of I've
had a lot of issues with my voice, and I
know that caffeine is bad, so I've been trying to
stick to the one cup of coffee in the morning.

Speaker 3 (01:10:40):
I'm addicted to spin Driff, the sparkling beverage.

Speaker 1 (01:10:43):
Yeah, okay, there's so many.

Speaker 2 (01:10:44):
We don't have that one in Canada, so it's hard
for me to keep up with all of America's many
sparkling beverages.

Speaker 4 (01:10:50):
Well, spin Riff is one of the very few that
does not have rubber chemicals. It is just it's actual
juice that gives it the essence, okay flavor, whereas the
other ones like Lacroix, even Tobuchico, they have what you
call natural flavoring, which is actually a chemical. I mean,
you know, obviously we're exposed to so much shit all

(01:11:12):
the time.

Speaker 3 (01:11:13):
You can't.

Speaker 4 (01:11:13):
But I also think it tastes better. But it's just
juice and water and it's okay, delicious.

Speaker 1 (01:11:18):
What's your flavor? I literally ordered.

Speaker 4 (01:11:22):
Direct from spin drift dot com and I ordered giant
cases of like six flavors because they're all so good.
So like the basic one, grapefruit is like always around.
I'm right now, I'm really into Tropical Punch, which I
think has guava. It has like, you know, two or
three things in it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:42):
I'm imagining five alive.

Speaker 4 (01:11:44):
Yeah, it's a live kind of or. I loved Manolai
as a kid. Did you remember that that was like
a guava.

Speaker 3 (01:11:51):
I think it was Sound America and one of those.

Speaker 1 (01:11:53):
We didn't get guava and ganted until the twenty.

Speaker 2 (01:11:55):
First century, just just like electricity. Well, I've got a
fridge full of grapefruit, lacroix, full of forever chemicals and
microplastics to enjoy, and I will I will enjoy it
and then all google Spin Drift Canada and see if
I'm even right about it not being available here. Maybe
I just never noticed it before. It might change your life,

(01:12:17):
it might change my life. Well, I'm looking for something too,
so this will be a great opportunity. It's either get
into selling my songs or switch my sparkling water brand.
So I'm hoping for the latter because it sounds a
lot faster. That's my conversation with Morgan Nagler of Whisper Town,

(01:12:38):
of Morgan Nagler and incredibly accomplished, impressive resume professional songwriter.
I loved talking to Morgan about writing music.

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
Obviously that's something that can.

Speaker 2 (01:12:49):
Be hard to put into words sometimes, but I really
got a sense of not just like how she operates
day to day, but why she operates that way in
and what it means to her to immerse herself in that,
and how she's staked out like that little corner for
herself in the music business.

Speaker 1 (01:13:05):
I especially really liked what she was.

Speaker 2 (01:13:07):
Saying about leaning into weirdness, you know, as like a
bulwark against encroachment of AI or algorithms or whatever into
the artistic world. Whatever that's going to turn out to
look like. I don't know, but I think it's kind
of good advice for life in general. The walls feel
like they're closing in sometimes, don't they. And one thing
that humans, I swear to God, will always be able

(01:13:28):
to do way better than any machine is be weird
and be idiosyncratic and be unpredictable. And to me it
behooves us now more than ever, not to get out
my soapbox, but to lean into our weirdness and our
individualities and our idiosyncrasies. Artistically, yes, but also just like
in our personality. And you know, many of my favorite

(01:13:48):
artists and many of my favorite humans are weirdos. And
here at major label debut we celebrate that. So here
is to the Weirdos, and here's to Morgan Nagler. Check
out her new music. It's under the Morgan Nagler thank
you so much to her. Major Label Debut is produced
by John Paul Bullock and Josh Hook. Our theme music
is by Greg Alsop. You can find us, and you

(01:14:10):
should find us in all the places that podcasts can be,
both in podcast apps and on social media and wherever
else on the internet that you got to go to
get the podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:14:20):
Big bucks these.

Speaker 2 (01:14:21):
Days, that's where we are and you can find us
there if you're so inclined.

Speaker 1 (01:14:25):
We're always happy to hear from you.

Speaker 2 (01:14:26):
Reach out via the channels if there's anything you want
to know about the music industry. If you're like, hey,
you guy should interview a lawyer, I'll interview a lawyer. Shit,
I'll interview a lawyer. Get me a lawyer right now.
I'll interview him for an hour and a half. No problem.
We'll probably not even get to the music. I have
some good lawyer friends in the business as well. But
that's a tale for another time. That's the podcast. Thank
you so much for listening. I'm Graham right. Major Label
Debut will return with more tales from the intersection of

(01:14:48):
art and Commerce later