Guster - "Lost And Gone Forever" with Ryan Miller (Pt. 2)

Ryan Miller of Guster returns and talks with Graham about more insider tales of the music industry.

📻🎚️
Cameron Winter “Love Takes Miles” (23:25)
Waxahatchee “Right Back To It (ft. MJ Lenderman)” (25:10)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
It's Major Label Debut, the podcast about major label Debuts.
My name is Graham Wright, and this is part two
of my conversation with Ryan Miller, the singer, guitar player,
founding member of the Great Guster. We were having our
first conversation and he had what they call a hard
out in showbiz and maybe other buzziness as well.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
I wouldn't know.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
We were having such a good time talking that we
thought we would get back together the next day and
we yacked a whole bunch more and this is that. So,
without further ado, here's the rest of my chat with
Ryan Miller from Guster. First of all, thank you so
much for returning to Major Label Debut for a follow
up conversation, our first ever. You've made it through to

(00:47):
the second interview. Congrats.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
Well, I felt badly because I don't like I had
a heart out, and usually I don't you know what
I mean. I did feel like we were in the
middle of a thought. So I was like, oh, well,
we can finish this, and then I was wondering what
was that. Maybe they don't want to talk again, and
I'm like, hey man, we won't have some coffee, won't
go see the movie.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
That's the dream of the podcast is for me to
have friends. Finally, I always talk about it like, you know,
you meet someone in a band at a party or
at a you know, an awards thing or whatever, and
you just talk to them because you both have the
same frame of reference.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah, you have the same shorthand it's like, yeah, we
know like a thousand of the same people, we have
the same grace. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
We talked about your literal major label debut last time,
and so this time I just wanted to sort of
talk around some of the stuff, some of the threads
that we didn't get to tug on that hard, speaking
of gatekeepers and of distribution. Guster in that regard has
come full circle. You self released your first record and
you are back to self release in your records now.

Speaker 2 (01:43):
I mean, we have an incredible management team that we've
had pretty much since the beginning. I don't know if
I told this story last time, but we our manager.
We met him right around the same time we were
getting interests from major labels, and we had met him
and he was just like he was an accountant and
he had gotten into UCLA to become to go to
music business school, and he was great. He was like

(02:05):
and we really liked him, and these major labels were
starting to kind of sniff around, and I think we
like maybe put one person on the phone with them,
and they were like, we really liked Dalton, and we
were like, hey, dude, why do you not go to
colle it? Like, don't go to grad school, like just
be our manager, learn how to do it. So he
didn't go to UCLA, and he became our manager and

(02:26):
we got signed and we just got really lucky in
a lot of ways. I mean, he's a hyper competent,
very honest, and now he's like kind of not I
wouldn't say a titan of the industry, but a beloved manager.
He was. He only managed us for many, many years,
and then when we started to slow down and we
weren't working like two hundred and fifty days a year anymore,

(02:48):
he started to take on other artists. But now he
manages father John Misty, he manages Mitski, he manages Lucy
Dakis and a third of boy Genius. Like his roster
is great and not by genre but just like really
authentic people who kind of our Gusta esque in a
way of like fan forward, not top down in terms

(03:10):
of like let's get a hit song, but like want
to go out there and work and tour. And he
built a management and that I think I told you
he might. He was involved with Network for a moment,
like and now we have a day to day guy
and a bunch of different people. He as a whole
agency that deals with all of us, and they're just great.
I mean, it's a huge part of our success. I mean,

(03:32):
we have a meeting every Tuesday and we like go
through all this stuff and it's really incredible to have
like four or five people on this call and be like, Okay,
we're doing this social media thing here. We got to
figure out what's going on with the Kennedy Center. We
got to do this. Does everybody know what they're doing
for the Vermont shows? Like we're going to talk about summer,
let's do artwork. And there's no version of this at
this level that could work if it were the four

(03:55):
of us talking to each other like we barely each other.
It made it requires us to have assignments.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
Well, we found that, you know, we started self managing
Tokyo Police Club in like twenty sixteen seventeen, and at
first it was amazing. I found that as time went
on and our manager became part of a company, and
there we had a day to day person and someone
would book our flights, and someone would rent the van,
and someone would take care of everything. And we were

(04:23):
also getting older, and we were, for the first time
sampling the notion of like, I have other friends than
just these guys in the band. Oh, there's a life
outside of the band, which we, like I said last time,
we were like eighteen when we started, so it was
really just the four of us for a long time,
and so we started to unplug and they filled in
the gap seemingly seamlessly. Yeah, and then you know, managers
take or traditionally managers take some kind of like seventeen

(04:47):
eighteen whatever percent cut off the top. And we were,
you know, there's an amount of money you can make
as a band where that really works, and then there's
an amount you can make where and that's where we were.
We were looking at our tour statements. We were like
crunching the numbers. Josh was like really had his jewelers
loop out, was pouring over this stuff. And we don't

(05:08):
tour fancy. You know, we were in the van, we
were selling our own.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
Merch, shoveling up in hotel rooms and all.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
Things short of going back to sleeping two to a bed.
And we're now thirty three years old.

Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, we're grown ass man.

Speaker 1 (05:19):
There's nowhere to cut costs, and yet money's just disappearing.
And when we finally realized, oh, it's disappearing into this
particular black hole, and so it got really exciting for
a second because it felt like, oh, now it's a
small business. And now we've sort of said we're not
going to have a hit in America. We're not going
to be Death Cup for Cutie, we're not going to
be Kings of Leon, but we can be Tokyo Police Club.
And with just the four of us handling everything, A,

(05:41):
the money's there and b oh my god, it's like
the old days making pins in the basement and emailing
promoters and stuff. And then a few years past and
I started to think, hey, I think maybe we could
keep it. We could maintain it. But like you say,
if no one's there to sort of juice it, yeah,
juice it. You got other shit going on, and you

(06:01):
don't want to think about your band full time. And
that's kind of what it takes.

Speaker 2 (06:05):
Well and the yeah, I agree. And what's actually I've
found too, is that you kind of have to run
at full tilt just to maintain it, ye like, and
I think that that's a relatively new Maybe it's not,
but to me it feels like a relatively new phenomenon
because there's so many distractions and because we have so

(06:26):
many things that if you aren't like innovating, putting out records,
like writing new songs, touring all the time, then when
you do go out the next time, the treadmill has
kicked you off the thing. And so it's funny like
I don't feel I mean, I do feel like the
band has grown probably the last two years, which is nuts.

(06:46):
But like before that, we kind of were just like
staying in one place, but we were running at full speed.
We weren't just like, well, man, let's write some tunes
and put on a record, like we were full time
this all the time just to kind of maintain and
that is really hard, especially as we became husbands and
fathers and breadwinners you know, for families and stuff like.

(07:09):
So it's not there's no shame in what you're saying
at all. It's just it's a nearly impossible task, and
so much of it has to do with luck and
timing and all that, and having that conversation, honestly, I'm
sure is really hard, but also like probably life saving,
so you don't present each other and yourself and fuck
up everything. You know.

Speaker 1 (07:29):
We played a gig in the summer with Bernie Good
Lady's your pals, and we were hanging out after the
show in the hotel bar with you know, Tyler and
whichever of.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
The guys were there, probably Kevin.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
Yeah, Kevin was there, and Tyler was He's so great
and he's from almost the same town as us, and
he was just sort of waxing rapsotic about how great
it is to be in a band and sort of
around our band, ending sort of saying like, wow, how
could you know, why would you ever stop? And he
was being so nice and complimentary that I just let
him cook because I like and he's the drummer from
Barny Good Lady, and he's telling me how great I am.

(08:01):
I'm just I'm not going to interrupt. But afterwards, I
was sort of going over it in my mind and thinking,
you know that if I was in the Barnaked Ladies.
I would never stop, but we have to, like, as
you say, never stop running. We have to say yes
to everything. We have to go work our asses off
at every single thing, drain yourself. Never get to like
stop and get your bearings. You never get to take
a year off. And then at the end of all

(08:23):
of it, you make like enough money to rent your
Toronto apartment for Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's a
bummer to realize that that, oh my god, like there
actually is an amount of money that I can't do
this for. I would have said for years and years,
of course I'd do it for free. I'd keep doing it,
and I will keep doing some version of it. But

(08:44):
you can't be in an indie rock touring band full
time for barely any money. It's just whatever, it's not sustainable.
It kills you, and it makes the band suck, or
it will if you do it long enough.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yeah, I think. I mean, I never thought I would
be fifty two years old and talking about this band,
like it just was not even on my radar. And
it's like, you know, I talked to our manager yesterday
and I was like, after this because we did this
eras tour and like kind of the takeaway from it,
which was interesting because I was like, Okay, we just

(09:18):
did this play tour thing that we and I was
really inspiring, and I was like, we just have to
keep going. And He's like he was probably the first
person to say, like, you can't just go out there
and be a band anymore. Like you just there's just
even our band that like means a lot to you know,
not a million, millions and millions of people, but saw

(09:39):
I mean absolutely, Like you know, I'd let that last
tour we just did half the states and we sold
something like thirty thousand tickets or something, you know, and
I mean that's a lot of people to come see
your band do a chronological theatrical retelling of your band.
And so, you know, I was talking to him, I
was like, we got to just keep fucking it up, man,

(10:00):
It's got to keep pushing, to keep inventing things. Because
and like he loves to talk about flaming Lips and
how they do such a great job of this. You know,
like every time they go out, they make it a production.
They have a story, they're going to do yoshimi, they're
going to do you know, soft bulletin they're going to do.
Whatever they did with Miley Cyrus, where they did like
a Brian Wilson record or something like that, was like

(10:23):
constantly innovating, and I think I really I think of
them as kindred spirits in that way of like, not
only do you have to work hard the whole time,
but you have to you have to take the creativity
that you want to put into songwriting into the entire business.
I think honestly starting a podcast is a great example
of that, or writing on a TV show and writing

(10:43):
your band into it. I mean, like not dissimilar. You know.
I think that the fact that you guys are are
kind of thinking about it as like are multi hyphenates,
but like as people that aren't just songwriters or tour
touring band is is really crucial And definitely, you know,
people ask me what I do, and I used to say, like, oh,

(11:04):
I'm in a band, and I still do sometimes, but
now with all this other stuff, I'm just like, oh,
I guess I'm an artist. Like I make stuff, I'm
a film composer, I write theater, I play it. But
like I think about it holistically, and I think that bands,
maybe not new bands but like bands like us need
to really figure out how to keep just telling a

(11:25):
really compelling narrative around what they're doing.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
There has to be a reason for people to get
a babysitter and go and shows are expensive, and drinks
are expensive, and trans it's expensive, and if you're going
to the city, a hotel is expensive, and it's like
that night out at the Tokyo Police Club concert could
be a three hundred dollars proposition and easy. I mean,
I wish we live in the world where it's just, hey,
we're a good band and we made another good record

(11:49):
and you should just come see us and everyone goes
home happy. But we don't live in that world.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
And so is there a version like, did you guys
discuss a version where you didn't tour that much and
you just made records?

Speaker 1 (12:00):
Not really, especially the way our band worked, it wasn't
necessarily how can I put this, It wasn't necessarily as
creatively fulfilling for everyone, of course. Yeah, And absent touring,
which I think was, you know, certainly for me going
out on the road and even doing selling merch and
doing some of the business end of things sort of
scratched an itch for me that I didn't always get
to scratch in the studio, so I really liked that.

(12:22):
But also I started to wonder if I did still
like it or if it was just you know you
ever like you am I just holding on by my
fingernails to like the ninth version of something that I
lost interest in around the fourth version. But I never
gave myself permission to consider that maybe actually it's like
I don't have to do this.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
I mean it's an incredible conversation to have, like like
as a musician, I mean I feel it much more
distinctly in LA around my writer, like exactly what we
were talking about before, Like what's going on with some
people in LA who are just like because that town,
especially with writing and stuff, can keep you in it
as like you know, not like I just sold a pilot,

(13:01):
but like all I sold a script and like, but
it might be three years until you do another one
and then it's like okay, or especially as an actor,
it's like oh I got booked on this commercial or whatever,
and you kind of get thrown these life wires. But
there's like a question of like how long are you
going to do this? Where you your time could sort
of be spent somewhere else, and it's not it's rarely,

(13:22):
I think, well I wouldn't say rarely, but it's not
always a merit based decision. I mean, these things are nothing.
None of this is merit based. It's just it is
luck and timing and what people are looking forward to,
certain where you are and who you know and all
these things. I mean, I think it's a really yeah,
I think it's a really grown up way to look
at something. Like I don't know, like if you're a

(13:43):
Doctor Dog fan at all, but like I'm a really
big fan of their music and have recently compoules with
Eric Slicked the Drummer, and like they kind of quit touring.
They basically are like we're going to be done touring.
We're just going to make records. And now they're playing
like three or four shows a year, and I think
they makes just as much money as I did before
because they'll be like Red Rocks and Forest Hills and

(14:06):
like a couple other big ones. And I'm like, all right, man,
Like that's really cool, Like that's an interesting way to
do it. Like I was like, we should break up,
Guster should break up and then do a reunion tour.

Speaker 1 (14:19):
Like right away we talked about we made our biggest record,
came out in twenty ten, and then trying to capitalize
on it and getting jerked around by label guys who
didn't hear a hit and everything. We spent four years
making the follow up. Yeah, and we came out of
the gate in twenty fourteen expecting to pick up where
we left off, and like you said, you get kicked
off the treadmill.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:39):
Shit, LCD sound System broke up and came back in
like eighteen months. We just spent four years telling everyone
we'll be right back, We'll be right back, We'll be
right back.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
Yeah, broke and we blew it.

Speaker 1 (14:51):
And our our Farewell tour was our biggest tour ever
by like a pretty wide margin.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
Was there navel gazing around that? I being like, fuck, guys,
should we really be well? Were you pretty well resigned
at that point that you would well?

Speaker 1 (15:04):
It was very plain to me and I think to
the other guys that if it wasn't their farewell tour,
it wouldn't have been because we had just done a
ten year anniversary tour on that twenty ten big album
that we stuck it in twenty twenty one, before Omicron
came out, you could get vaccinated and go to concerts
and be fine. I remember, Yeah, it was a beautiful
moment and that tour was really fun, but this tour

(15:26):
was big. It was enormous.

Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, because because you had a story, last chance, you
had a narrative. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
I think about The hold Steady, who are another band
that does a really interesting thing now where they just
kind of go do residencies. We'll go to London and
play four shows Toronto four shows. They have the right
kind of fan base, they have the big catalog, they
can do unique sets. I love that band and I
used to go see them every time they came to Toronto,
and then once I missed it, I was like, I'll
catch them next time. They come back every year, and
now I kind of like, it's been five years since

(15:55):
I saw them play. But if they announced that they
were coming back to Toronto for one final Hold Stay
You show, I would absolutely get off the couch and
go and they would probably play it. You know, a
three thousand cap room instead of four nights to four hundred.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yeah, but you only get one chip like that unless
unless you sounds him. What a genius. What a genius? Yeah,
I'm a Old Steady fan too, And Craig's a great
example too, because I think he wrote a book or
more than one book, and.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
He has a couple of books.

Speaker 2 (16:21):
He has a podcast now, yeah, and like that's what
I mean. It's like that's the only way to kind
of make Old Steady work because they are fans, like
legit fans like you who are like, well, well, okay,
here we go on our eighth album or a ninth
album or Tad's back or whatever, and then you're like, well,
how do you do that? And I think that's why

(16:42):
it's like smart for Craig to be like, Okay, I
can pull in people from a podcast, I can pull
in people from my literary work or whatever, and it
can kind of help keep that buoyancy up. But it is,
of man, it is an endless struggle on that front.
But it's also like, okay, I mean, no one I
almost you that this was gonna be like some factory

(17:04):
job in your hometown that you like get when you're
twenty five and you retire at fifty five.

Speaker 1 (17:09):
Like, well, that's interesting because I always felt like, maybe
this is just my own interpretation but there was kind
of like an implicit promise or an implicit suggestion, which
is just the myth making of rock and roll. But
it looked not just fun and not just glamorous or rewarding,
but in a sense kind of easy and even. You know,
I'd watch meeting people as easy, and they're they're miserable

(17:31):
and grumpy the whole time, but all the stuff they're
miserable and grumpy about is obviously amazing and fun. And
I was like, well, if that's all that sucks in
is that your album is too successful and too many
Japanese journalists want to interview you, and their questions are
all the same on that great, Yeah, I'm down, sign
me up. And I think I really took it as
a given that it was not just possible but likely

(17:54):
that you could get that kind of like rock and
roll tenure where you can just make a record when
you feel like it, you do tour when you feel
like it, the kind of thing that now your death
cabs for Quti or whatever seemed to have where they
can kind of do what the spirit compels them to do.
But I see, see, You're like, that's not even real either.
That's such a real.

Speaker 2 (18:12):
Well, first of all, yeah, there's like two things. One
there's just like you're talking. I think I've always framed that.
It's like, oh, you made it. Yeah, like it was
always about making it, and it was and it was
a little bit, you know, to bring a really home.
It was about getting signed. Like when I was a teenager,
it was like, oh we got signed, man, we did it,
and it's like all right, motherfuckers, let's go and you

(18:34):
lean back in your chair and you smoke your cigar
because you got signed. And maybe that mythology, that myth
making began in the seventies or eighties where you could
be Bruce Spingstein and make four or five records before
you had to have a hit, and they were there
was artist development in a way that didn't exist now.
But yeah, I think it's kind of like it's where

(18:56):
the work sort of starts. It is that it's it's
that idea that you can't you don't really ever get
to rest at this point. There is no we've made
it and done it. But like the death cab thing, Oh,
that's what I was going to say, is like those
guys just went out and did like a postal service
Translanticism tour. They couldn't just be like, here's our ninth
album and let's go do it. Like they they get

(19:19):
the they got the memo too that they need to
find a way to compel people to get back in.
And I'm sure that they do great when they don't
have that narrative stuff. But the fact that like, like
I've got a couple buddies in that band and Postal
Service and like that was the biggest tour they ever
had by like three acts. I think they running around
the world twice, you know on that Postal Service record,

(19:41):
which is really and then brought the death Cap thing
along with it. But it like when I saw it,
you know, death Cab opened up for Postal Service, So
like that was really helpful for them and really smart.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
Oh yeah, we toured with Weezer back in like two
thousand and eight, and it was when the Red album.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
It was like which record was that?

Speaker 1 (19:59):
Yeah, And it was really an interesting thing because now
I look at Weezer and I see a band that
is like fully understands how to play the game and
how to do you know, whether it's a blue album
tour or covers album based on a meme or whatever.
And I feel like this was the moments. It was
this arena tour and I'm not trying to talk shit
about the great Weezer, but we're like, oh shit, a

(20:19):
Weezer arena tour. This is going to be like going
on tour with the Beatles. Made it and it was
just the whole thing was a little more muted, and
they seemed even like Rivers wasn't really singing any of
the hits, you know, they were like Pat wasn't playing drums.
It was interesting. But then right after that they seemed
to kind of give their heads a shake and say like, Okay,
maybe actually if we do an album tour. That's one

(20:40):
of the first bands I was aware of doing an
album tour back in I don't know, the old days,
and they really got wise to it, and now they're
you know, they're fine.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
And also I think and that totally tracks with my
what my version of that arc is. And also I
think Rivers was just like fuck it, we're writing hit
songs too, and like yes in La and like he
and I don't know if you ever saw his like
chart that he made where he like wrote down the
chords of famous songs, and I know he's like definitely
out there, and like, I think we can use the

(21:10):
word neurodivergent in a non pejorative way. And also just
kind of got that that was the memo that they
weren't gonna just be able to make blue record like
there were or Pink or Red albums and be like, Okay,
well this isn't we don't like we need more and
then for him to kind of figure that out, and
I agree, Yeah, they've done a good job, and like

(21:31):
especially with like some of didn't they do like a
co headline with like Fallout Boy or somebody really.

Speaker 1 (21:36):
Big, They've done a few good packages.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
It was just like a yeah, I was blinked, and
I'm like, oh, it was a little bit of a
head scratcher, but also like kind of made sense in
a way that was very uncynical about like this is
just smart, Like you're kind of like, you know, figuring
this out. But I think, and this is kind of
the bummer of this whole conversation is like it'd be
great if we didn't have to think about and what's

(21:59):
good as we have you and I we've this whole conversation.
We haven't talked about social media, yes, which I think
is interesting because I don't think it is about social media,
and I don't think that any of the stuff we're
talking about, it's like, well, you got to build an
audience through social media. Like the things I'm we're talking about, podcasts,
writing books, co writing in La, having a friend that's

(22:20):
a writer there, a White Years TV show like those
are the things that I think are much more compelling
than a social media buzz. And I really believe it,
and like it's fun to watch things kind of catch
like the MJ. Linderman thing has been kind of a
funny thing to happen. And I'm really into this dude,
Cameron Winter. You know, this guy's the lead singer of

(22:42):
the band Geese.

Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yes, someone else was just talking about him with me.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
Yeah, And it's happened in this way that like my
one of our managers, he stay to Day for Tillman
for Father John Missy was like, have you fucked with
this Cameron Winter record yet? And I was like no,
I like, I listened to Geese, but I didn't. It
didn't grab me. And he's like my other friend here
and he lives upstate somewhere turned me on to it,
you should listen, and I was like okay, and then

(23:08):
and then it was like a week later, it's like
have you listened yet? And I was like no, and
I listened. I was like, holy shit, it really blew
me away. It was like one of the one of
like it was the record on first listen where I'm
just like laughing and smiling and.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
Talk to us, she can away.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
And then I started to find other people out there
that are all kind of finding it in this way
that's very organic because it's music driven. And now you know,
I was on his socials and he's like selling out everywhere,
playing really small places and having to bump it up
and watching it happen that way where it's like it's
just because the records really fucking weird and musical and good,

(23:59):
and you're like, well, well this happens too, you know
what I mean. I know he's already in a famous band,
like I know that Geese does well and like opened
up for you know, King Gizzard and stuff, but like
but it's just like, oh fuck, this is so fun.
I feel like I don't I haven't gone that deep
with the MJ. Linderman stuff, but I really like a
lot of the stuff that I've heard and that feels

(24:20):
really cool and organic too, or like Katie like walks
a Hatchie, you just said it.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
Like a song. We know it, fucking keeper, dude.

Speaker 2 (24:42):
It kind of makes you uncynical about this stuff because
those things were not social media driven. I mean, maybe
they there might have been a TikTok thing with some
of this, but I think those three artists just have
a tremendous amount of integrity and just made cool records.
And I'm not cynical about the music industry because like,
those are three examples of artists that I think are

(25:03):
going to have a real career that required no gatekeepers whatsoever.
They just made cool records and kind of did the work,
and now it seems to be happening for them. And
that's really fun to watch, especially when you catch it
early and you can kind of see it happening in
real time.

Speaker 1 (25:18):
You asked last time, like sort of what the gestalt
of the podcast is, and that really gets at it
is this notion where and we're all vulnerable to it.
You want to make music, you love music, and you
want to make music for real in some sense, whether
it's for your job or to an audience or whatever.
But then there's always these sort of carts that get

(25:39):
easily put before the horse, where it's, oh, well, if
you're on social media, you can really promote your music well,
and then you start to or it's easy to start
to forget about the music or let your choices about
the music be governed by the marketing of the music,
and you wake up one morning and you're putting all
your creative energy into salesmanship rather than art. And that's

(26:03):
the biggest version of it. But we kind of all
do that to some degree. And it's that degree that
really interests me is where then your compass starts to
point as you start to onboard all this new knowledge,
whether it's about social media now or about radio thirty
years ago, or whatever the case may be.

Speaker 2 (26:18):
I don't think that those parameters have really I mean,
they've changed a lot with social media. But even when
we started, like we started a street program, we call
them the guster reps or you know, I think maybe
I told you about yeah, yeah, the Oji street Yeah,
but that was like that was sort of a marketing
thing hack that we had to or the newsletter or
the road journal or something like. These were all kind

(26:38):
of hacks that we had, so like those existed pre
social media too, but it was always like I felt
like it was driven, like it just doesn't work if
you don't have good song, Like it's really the advice
that I like. People don't ask me for advice anymore,
but if anybody ever asked me advice, like what do
I do? I'm a young band and I want to

(26:59):
make it. I'm just like, write great songs. And that's
kind of why I get really excited to talk about
the Lenderman, Walksahatchie, Cameron Winter stuff, because I'm like, they're
great fucking songs, Like they're just good songs, and people
hear them, and my manager can be like, will you
just fucking listen to the record, like fine, just to
shut them up, and you listen, You're like, God, these

(27:21):
are fucking great songs. And then I want to tell
you about it on a podcast because I want you
to listen to it, and you'll probably write to me
and be like those are great songs, and that's just
that's fuck. That's what gets me off, Like that's what
makes me uncynical about it, because it does still work
that way.

Speaker 1 (27:35):
And that's so interesting because then that's sort of you know,
when you send your batchful of demos to the label
and the an R guy says, ooh, I don't know,
like keep writing, I don't hear a single.

Speaker 2 (27:45):
You know.

Speaker 1 (27:46):
I always found that really frustrating. I always found that
really like insulting and annoying. But then we had once
we spent when we were making this record that took
four years. We sent like twenty demos We've been just
working our asses off, and we got back an email
that said, remember every good chorus is a nursery rhyme.
That was the whole email, No comments on anything. I
hate that man. And for years I complained and I complained,

(28:09):
And then a couple of years ago, during lockdown, I
got really into, you know, going on Instagram and posting
thoughts about songs I liked or whatever, and I was
listening to Enema of the State one twenty eight two
and I was like, shit, maybe every good course he's
a nursery rhyme.

Speaker 2 (28:22):
I mean, that's the thing. There are rules with this, right,
but they always can be broken. Like I'm just it
gets funny because I have teenage kids and I got
a sixteen year old and.

Speaker 1 (28:32):
What are they listening to?

Speaker 2 (28:33):
Well, my sixteen year old is super indom like the
shit that I'm into, but also turns me onto stuff.
But like like we went away for tour in January
and they went to Slow Dive without me and they
were like sending me photos and I'm like, okay, we're
doing this, Okay, yeah, But also like there's some stuff
that like TV Girl, like my older kid and my

(28:53):
son who's fourteen, is like super into Tyler Creator, which
is cool because like I don't really fuck I mean,
I like like Igor and and but I like he's
really into the new record and he's like I really
wanted so we might go to Bell Center in Montreal
to see them the summer. Yes, but it's really interesting
to see because we listen to a ton of music
in the house obviously, and like predominantly Vinyl because I

(29:16):
just didn't want to have more screens going on. But
it's funny like when stuff will pop up, I'm like why,
Like Leo, my oldest knows about Pavement and I'm like, well,
how do you know about this? Because we don't. We
just have slid in and chanon and we don't listen
to it all that often because like my wife doesn't
like pavement, uh and and like TikTok, you know, and
so pavement like how to hit on TikTok, you know.

(29:38):
And like this is where I also am like a
defender of social media in a way, is because like
think about like Mac DeMarco, you know what I mean,
Like that song that was huge was not probably it
was the wrong tempo it was you know what I mean,
it was lazy, didn't it probably wasn't Maybe it wasn't
it then there is a maybe it was a nursing Ryan.

(30:01):
But it's just like all the rules have been broken
in away with social media because and it's not necessarily
that it becomes more merit based, but it's just it's
so much easier for crazier shit to pop up, like
the things that get big on TikTok that then can
turn into a career. Like I think the Lenderman thing

(30:21):
was probably fueled a little bit by that I don't
know enough.

Speaker 1 (30:24):
And it's this amazing thing where for bands like ours
Yours am Mine, you know, if your singles from the
album didn't go on radio, then it was kind of like, okay, well,
onto the next album as far as radio is concerned.
But with TikTok, a twenty year old song or a
fifty year old song or one hundred year old song
tomorrow could suddenly be a hit again. And it's just
this weird potential that never has existed. And now I

(30:47):
guess maybe if it was in a commercial or something
was the closest thing that's not the same.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
That was all you could get into. Try and get
into a Volkswiden commercial or get onto the OC. Yeah,
but even that was really about new music too, like
when those shows were breaking bands sync son of or
with like Scrubs or whatever. Those couple of those shows
were like big shows, but it was always about new
music mostly. And now you're right, it can be it's genreless.

(31:12):
It's like it doesn't matter when you release the record
at all. Like our drummer's always like, dude, this song
has this fifteen second hook and he's not wrong. Like
I could pick out I could send you five things
off our last record that were like, oh, I could
see that being like a sound or whatever. But it's
really like how it works. This is such a mystery,

(31:32):
and I don't know again, I'm uncynical about it. In
that way.

Speaker 1 (31:36):
It's beautiful to talk to someone who's uncynical about it,
because I think I bite the end. I was feeling
pretty cynical. Maybe it's just easier to say goodbye to
that chapter of my life if I just say, well,
the whole industry's bullshit and poison anyway, So good riddance.
But it's nice to hear your perspective on it, because
I think it sounds true to me, sounds plausible.

Speaker 2 (31:55):
Yeah, And not to say it's not rife with all
this stuff. You know, it's still the music business. It
still is the music business, and there's still a lot
of horrible people in places. And and I don't know
that it's been completely you know that the gatekeepers have
been removed completely. But I just I just never wanted
to be that guy. It was like, man, all the
good music's back then, you know, Like I just and

(32:18):
I'm not like super into brand new stuff, like and
I do kind of feel that way sometimes where I'm
just like, I just don't have the depth of appreciation
with some new stuff, Like I don't know, it's kind
of hard to know. And I'm not really the poster
boy for this in some ways, like I I will
say I'm uncynical and I really do love music and

(32:40):
I still love like I will keep an open mind,
and it's kind of funny, like a lot of times
i'm my kid will show me new music, I'm like, so,
what's the story? Like where are they from? Like what's
the deal? And they're like, I don't know. I'm like, oh,
right where storytelling was so important to me and is
so important me. That isn't necessarily the case for like

(33:02):
my kids. They don't care where the artist is from,
they don't care what they Yeah, and that is that's
a really interesting I don't know what that means. I
just think it's interesting.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
You know, ten years ago or so, I did some
radio stuff with CBC here in Canada, and before that,
being in the band, I would always get frustrated by
the way every album had to have a story, the
press release had to be shaped us. It's like, isn't
the story just we made a good record, check it out?
And then I did a month of broadcast and I realized,
so there's nothing to talk about with these bands, and

(33:34):
so the songs that I would gravitate to playing. Weren't
songs that I hated. They were songs that I liked
and songs that I had something I could say about.
And that was a real moment of realization for me.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
And I don't know if I said that in my
last one, because I say it in every fucking time
I opened my mouth, but like everything is storytelling everything. Yeah,
And so that's right, And I think, you know, we've
never really like tried to go like top down with
that in terms of record of like, Okay, we're going
to make a record about this kind of been like well,
let's just go get together. There will be a story

(34:06):
in there probably and that will be our challenge is
to like what's the story? And I tried to do
a lot of thinking around our last record of what's
the story of this record and kind of came up
with something that was true but not a great hook,
kind of like between you and me and whoever's listening
to this podcast, Like I'm going into the next record
with a story in mind, almost for that reason, because

(34:29):
I realized, because before I feel like, oh god, we
have to come up with a story, and it felt laborious,
But now I'm having because I really believe the storytelling
is everything. It's like, well, yeah, well, in the same
way we think about touring, like what's going to compel
people to come see the band for the twenty fifth time,
it's like, what's going to compel someone to listen to
this record? I'm like, well, I got a story to

(34:51):
tell and here's what it is. And you're like, oh, okay, cool,
that sounds like an interesting story. What do you tell
me more? It all started coming from publicists of like, well,
they need a story here, and you're like, fuck you, man,
the songs are the story. It's like not really their fault.
So they're storytellers. They need the story, and you did.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
I wanted to ask about doing the We also have
eras tour, which, parenthetically I really appreciate it in general,
just because Taylor being the brilliant genius the tailor is
aras tour great marketing. But I was like, every tour
is an eras tour, or at least it used to be.
It's just you just played songs for different eras, but
you did one as you've described that was you weren't
just telling the story through playing the songs chronologically. You

(35:32):
were literally going into the dorm room and recreating to
some degree.

Speaker 2 (35:36):
We had a script in props and costumes.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
Josh of Tokyo and of Major Label Debut podcast loves
to talk about and compare the way that the hive
mind memory works, where you will there's stories I've been
telling for fifteen years about the band that then I'll
hear our drummer tell and it's different.

Speaker 2 (35:54):
We have the same thing.

Speaker 1 (35:56):
I think every band must.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
Our thing is like we all think it happened to us, right,
He's like, He's like, we all tell stories like it
happened to me. It's like that wasn't you, that was me?
And I'm like, no, no, no, no, that happened to me.
Like the high mine works, that really changes every like
actual the molecules in your brain that makes you believe
that you did it.

Speaker 1 (36:15):
So when you were putting together the tour, putting together
the script for the play and everything, what was that
like so specifically and deliberately, not just you know, answering
some podcasters questions about your story, but re embodying this
story from back when you know, did you did it
change your perspective on your life?

Speaker 2 (36:35):
Oh? Yeah, I mean I will give one hundred percent
of credit or like ninety eight percent of the credit
to Brian our drummer, who wrote the script. And we
went through it like to see and I kind of
came up with the idea and like a like just
a thing. I was like, we need to do something.
When it was this conversation, it was like we got
to have something for the tour. And I was like,
let's do an underwater prom so people can dress up

(36:57):
like we had done that at our thing. And he's like, yeah,
that's pretty good, but let's keep thinking, you know what
I mean, And and he was really into Taylor Swift
and was like, we should do an Eiras tour and
I was like, and then it was just like fuck.
And because I was right in the middle of doing
this play, writing this musical that was and so I
was already in like theatrical I was like, dude, let's

(37:19):
just fucking do it. Let's let's write a play and
we'll tell the story of the band and props and costumes.
And he was like okay, and then we kind of
jammed on like what are our plot points? You know,
like what do we have to talk about? Like we
have to talk about meeting. We have to talk about
the horrible record we did with this one producer that
almost broke up the band. You know, we got to
talk about getting signed, we got to talk about meeting

(37:40):
Steve Lilly White, all these kind of things. And then
he went away for a couple of months and just
came back with this like fifteen page script and it
was pretty much there. I mean, it really was. He
really like it was built in two acts and you know,
had a beginning in the middle of the end, and
it was the first thing he really like, well, he
had written our road journals and stuff, but it was
the first like major creative input that I had from

(38:03):
kind of exclusively him in a while. And it was
really great. And yeah, and every night we kind of
got to relive this thing where we meet in the
dorm and we kind of have this you know end
of act one where everything falls apart. Then we get
back together and there's a moment of gratitude and we
have a big finale, and then you know, we had
a campfire thing at the end, just because we started

(38:24):
acoustic and acoustic, and I think that is why it
worked so well, is like there was like and I
was love. I was really hoping for people to come
see it for the first time. Like I loved when
no one had seen the band before, because I'm like, well,
this is it. And we start acoustic and then just
like our band, and then like after we plug in

(38:46):
and it's the first time we kind of go in
with the percussion and this whole thing, and it's a
moment the lights come on, and like it felt very
theatrical and very broadway in a way of like, oh,
there's a real arc here to what the band is doing.
And it was sort of emotional in a way, like
especially near the end, like fuck, we don't get to
do that thing again. Closing night, Yeah, closing night, And

(39:08):
it was just like, oh, that won't happen again in
that way. And I'm sure you you know, you did
a farewell tour, so you feel this very deeply, but
it it is kind of emotional, and it was really
it was really it was really fun. It was really
fun to tell the story every night.

Speaker 1 (39:22):
Well, it's really interesting to me how it just because
the whole or I've always found the touring thing is
sort of this balance between I'm doing air quotes artifice
and I don't know whatever, the opposite of artifice and kind.

Speaker 2 (39:35):
Of security, very similitude.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
Yeah, it's a new thing every night, but also it's
I've played the song a thousand plus times in my life,
and even the set list maybe halfway through the tour,
where the kind of band that tends to settle into
a good SETU scrive and stay more or less close
to it if we're not doing multiple nights in a
city or whatever. And obviously every musician knows what it
feels like to get into that highway hypnosis autopilot where

(40:00):
you sort of realize that you were thinking about laundry
for the last four songs, and so you did all
your changes and you switched instruments, no problem. But then
there's a subconscious reconciliation between like, am I how much
of this is real? How much of this is not
that it matters, but these are the things that I
worry about anyway, And then doing it as a dramatic presentation,

(40:24):
you're putting on a show, and it makes it so clear,
and I would have to imagine that changes your experience
on stage, even beyond the superficial differences.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
Well, it's fun. I mean, it's like there's two things
that sort of come to mind. One is like, you know,
I've become friends with a bunch of stand up people
and you know they work on their hour. Yeah, you know,
I have a power of this guy Alex Edelman, who
we've done stuff with before, and I saw his show
and Chery Lane Theater called Just for Us and it
ended up going to Broadway, and I saw it a
bunch of times in between and watching iterations and watching

(40:57):
him work on this show and change every night. What
he would change like a little thing, and it would
be like, oh, I'm going to pause a little longer here.
And then that was really instructive. And then of course
when we did our musical and I was in the
workshop and then I was watching it, especially during previews
where we were like as soon as the show is over,
you go and you talk about what happened, you know,
and like, okay, we need a breath here. We got

(41:19):
to get this this costume change has to be better.
We got to kill this line. Musically, this isn't working.
We need more drums. And you start, instead of being like, oh,
every night is a new set list or whatever, you
start to work on these little tiny like basically imperceptible,
microscopic elements that then add up to this thing at

(41:39):
the end that becomes like a want or a zero,
like did it work? And I think that's a whole.
It's a completely different muscle than we ever experience as
a band that does change our set lists, not that radically,
but pretty radically every night, and then having to do it,
we're like, I don't want to play this Talking Heads

(42:01):
cover again every night. Like there's a song that we
had on a live record that we play this Talking
Heads cover, and I was just like, by the end,
I'm like, I don't need to play that song again.
And normally we play it once twice a year, and
so I was like, Okay, there's the downside of it, right,
But being forced into that sort of and we would
swap out a couple songs, but being forced into that
repetition where you had to find how to tweak it.

(42:23):
We would talk about lines like hey, you're jumping on
my line here, give that a little more space, or
let's do the dance number this way tonight, Like was
really interesting and we learned it so much and I
don't know that I prefer it because it was it
did allow for that laundry, that four song laundry internal
dialogue to come in more frequently because you're like, oh,

(42:45):
I know where we are hit You're saying lines. Yeah,
I'm saying lines, which is crazy because you know we're
not actors. But there was like, yeah, I mean, of course,
I'm thinking about the email that I forgot to send,
you know, for like three songs, But then I'm doing
it while I'm singing, playing guitar, moving my pedals around
like it's it is a weird little thing that we do.

Speaker 1 (43:07):
It's really amazing what you can do, and it's fun
to realize like the tiny little and again doing it
the way that you did it as a more deliberate,
dramatic presentation is maybe an opportunity to be a little
more conscious of those things. And those little moments are
things that when I noticed them, I found to be
my favorite part of playing shows. Have you played a
non eras gig since that tour?

Speaker 2 (43:29):
Yeah, there'll be some of that this summer. And then
when we go out with B and L. I keep
thinking about June. We're going out with Parnaked Ladies and
we're playing forty five minutes like we were doing two,
and it was a two and a half hour wow
with an intermission. It was a two and a half
hour night. Like I'm just like, holy shit, man, we're
gonna it's gonna be cake. And like early, let me
done at seven.

Speaker 1 (43:50):
That was like the Weezer tour we do. It was like, yeah,
we're in the stage at six thirty playing for thirty minutes. Yeah,
Now we were chasing a bus, so then we had
to get off stage and drive four hours and sleep
two hours, but still not fun. I wanted to ask
because we were talking about we were talking about my
band ending and it seems to me like you guys
have had a really good, positive run And I was
going to ask, was there ever a moment where you

(44:12):
genuinely considered ending it or where it seemed like it
might end itself? And then you just mentioned making your
first record, right, Was that the one that was the
horrible LP experience where you almost broke up?

Speaker 2 (44:22):
No, it was like it was the one with it
was like six maybe on the sixth album or something.
Oh okay, okay, Like we worked with this producer. He
completely undermined It was a little bit of that nursery
rhyme thing. In a way not really, but but it
was consistent of just like every instinct that you have
as a musician, he would undermine, like and it was

(44:44):
just like eventually we didn't know how to make and
we tried to yes and with producers. That's why we
like picked producers, like sure, okay, we're not gonna tell
you what to do. We're here to you to guide
us and to give into your system, you know. And
when we gave ourself our confidence to him, we just
were not speaking the same language. And he was not

(45:05):
a good person in a way, like he wasn't a
good human, and so it completely undermined our ability to like, no,
we just didn't even know what was happening anymore. We
didn't know how to make music. It's like we had
nothing left at the end, like everybody peeled off one
by one. Was just he and I in the studio,
and it was like after that we just didn't talk.

(45:27):
It was the first time, probably the only time where
the wheels came off the bus and we just like
didn't talk for like a couple months, and I didn't
know if it was like over over. But then of
course there's like a total redemption arc and we went
and made the record ourselves and it was you know,
that part of it was great, but like interpersonally, we

(45:49):
weren't even mad at each other. We were just completely demoralized.
It was almost like we entered a cult and we
lost our personality or something.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
Well, the band takes you make the band out of
friendship to some degree, but then the band becomes like
this holding thing that your friendship is part of, but
not all of. And like then if something like that
happens that is poisonous for the band, it can take
a minute to differentiate in your mind, like do I

(46:18):
feel bad about those guys? Do I feel bad about
those relationships? Do I feel bad about some business thing
that's not related to any of that? And too it's
all in the guster basket or that's that's how it
always felt for me.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
Yeah, it's the most complicated relationship that you'll ever have
because you spend I mean I will have spent more
time with those dudes than I even my own children. Yeah,
and that's what's crazy, And like you don't know that, Like,
you know, we didn't meet each other that much, but
we also met each other as teenagers, you know, and
you don't know that you're choosing a life partner when

(46:51):
you're like, hey, bro, you want a jam in the
dorm room and a business partner, and a business partner
and someone and now like someone that has your image
in their hand. You know. I think about this shit
all the time when I'm just like, fuck, the guy
in Mumford loves Jordan Peterson and now all of a sudden,
the band isn't playing festivals anymore. Yeah, you know, like

(47:14):
what the fuck? Like that is crazy that we have
that much power over each other's lives. And I you know,
I say that sometimes in my wife. I'm like when
we talk about life, I'm like, yeah, well the band,
I don't know, I might not be in this band forever.
And it's like, yeah, you will, And I'm like, dude,
you never know, Like and I'm not getting into cancel

(47:36):
culture or anything like that. I'm just saying like, something
can happen and all of a sudden, the whole thing
can go away very quickly.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
Yeah, each of you is like a load bearing pillar
for this towering, swaying complex apparatus.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
Exactly, and really, any one of you could just completely
torpedo at any given moment. On accident, not even you know,
or just by wanting to speak your own personal peace.
I mean, I'm just really lucky again that the people
that I'm in this bandwidth are kind and intelligent people
that have made a lot of good decisions around who

(48:16):
their life partners are. Like all the wives are amazing
and really important, you know, like that have support systems
in place, and you know, no addiction issues and no
mental health breaks. You know that there's no fault of
anybody's Like, just got really lucky that that's the case.
And I don't I don't take it for granted. And

(48:38):
even this thing with the Kennedy Center, like I'm really
glad we're aligned, because it's like it's a pretty hard
thing to parse, Like what do we do when half
your fans are telling you to cancel on the other
half are telling you you got to play the show.
And I'm glad we all agree on this, Like, I'm
glad we all are aligned. So it's really then we're
just talking about what kind of language we use.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
Yeah, because it's another thing as much like exposure as
there is as much vulnerability as there isn't sharing this
important thing with these other pillars it's also like, man,
when it works and you have guys that have your back.
I've talked to people who are doing solo careers who
have been since the beginning of their career. They was
their name, their show, they pay the band, they hire

(49:17):
the band, whatever, and it's like when they're getting fucked with,
they're on their own, or they have their friends to
lean on or their team to lean on, but they
don't have someone else who's in the boat with them
one hundred percent. And I don't know what I would
have done without that, and it got.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
Us through so much. Yeah, no, it makes it makes
a lot of sense. I've always kind of had that,
and I've never I think about you know, like like
I said, our management works with like tellmen from Father
John miss Here or Lucy or you know or Mitski,
who are all like solo artists, so the way that
they work is completely different than how our band works.

(49:53):
And I yeah, and I and in some ways I'm like, oh,
would be great, did not have to ask permission to
do half the shit I want to do. But also
like it's also just makes it better, Like my songs
are not as good when I'm before I send them
to the band, and our band isn't as good as
if I just hired a bunch of people to play

(50:15):
these things, like I wouldn't have this cool percussion player,
I wouldn't have Adam on bits like so yeah, it's
it makes it really. Bands are fucking mysterious creatures.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
It sounds like Guster has a pretty ideal career from
the outside looking in. Is there a band you're jealous
of or that you've been jealous of?

Speaker 2 (50:33):
Oh? All of them? I mean yeah, one hundred million bands,
Like yeah, I mean, listen, there's there's a lot of
frustrations in the band especially, and it's helped a lot,
but like, not being cool has been hard. I always
felt like your band was in the cool kid club
and then you know, in New York scene, and you
were like, yeah, we were not invited to those parties. Yeah,

(50:55):
I mean I'm not really like, I'm so happy, I'm
so honored to be able to do this that I
don't actually get mad about stuff as much earlier that
much anymore. But you know, there's a few times where
I'm like, oh, if Satellite had been in a bigger song,
like when it came out, and if it had gone
Gold and like the first six months it came out

(51:15):
instead of eight years later because it was on playlists,
you know, would we kind of be playing because also
we did the Aerostore was the biggest tour we had done,
and we were starting to play like we played not
the biggest places we played, but like we were playing
like you know, like in Boston we played like a
fifty five hundred seater and it was like at MGM
and it was sold out, and it was like, oh,

(51:36):
this feels good. And like playing Red Rocks is like fuck, man,
like feels nice to be able to go in those
like and I am not complaining about playing the two
thousand people most nice, you know, I'm not, but like
you can kind of see it just like, oh, man,
like it's good up there, like like going to see
Death Cab and stuff and being like and really the

(51:56):
only thing, the thing that's really on the bucket list
for me is just international, Like I just I love
touring so much. I love traveling, and I've been to
Cleveland thirty times and I've been to Austria twice, you know,
and like like so it's like it's a little bit
like that's the only thing where I'm just like, like

(52:18):
we're pals with like not a surf, you know, And
I'm like, they'll get to go do like fifteen hundred
person rooms in Europe and like not lose money, And
I'm like, fuck, that would be so fun. Like I'm
again not complaining, but like if I rephrase the question
is like what do I still want to do? Like
some kind of international presence would have been fantastic and

(52:40):
it's probably too late, but I mean I can still
go there. But that's real fun watching your friends get
to go do that.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
Yeah, some of my fondest memories from my touring career.
And we were not playing fifty five hundred cap venues.
We were not playing five hundred and fifty cap venues,
but we you know, we were breaking even and we
were spending three weeks touring in the UK and Europe,
which just has a it's just a different experience. It
has a different flavor, it has a different energy from

(53:07):
top to bottom. The gas stations are different, the rider
food is different in both directions, and it's just like
it feels like you're gone somewhere. It feels like you're
somewhere different.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
It's like you're if because I think that is part
of like what the dream of being a rock star,
at least for me it was about, because I love
exploring it, like like people like eating things, seeing things,
meeting people and like the whole thing. And like you
go to Europe and all of a sudden you're like,
oh fuck, or Japan or South America and all of

(53:39):
a sudden it's that fifty X You're like, wait, what
are you talking about? I'm going to be in Barcelona tomorrow,
Like what do you mean? Like, of course the multiplier
is like insane, So I mean that's that's not a
regret because I think we it just didn't happen for us.
But I'm so jealous of people that get to go
do that. I be like, fuck, I mean, do you

(54:00):
have an answer for like what band career you would want?
It feels like idealize knowing all this stuff that you know.

Speaker 1 (54:06):
Now guster it really, I mean it genuinely sounds I'm
being a dick, but it does genuinely sound. What you
guys are not just able to do but interested all
interested in doing is stuff that reminds me of the
really great early days of our band, and we were
it was very like making music was one of the

(54:27):
creative things we did. We also would like make pillows,
or build a drum riser in the garage, or paint
the bass to be a you know, to match the
drum kit and all of those, like get a video
camera and make it our project. It was yeah, just
all a big creative lo yeh. Then the band became
a band and you had to start focusing more and
more on the music. And I found with the where

(54:50):
we were in the industry. Every time once the music
started going, we found a new creative outlet. For a while,
we were really into making vlogs. We got those old flipcams, remember, Yeah,
we loved going to an iMovie and just making these
goofy nonsense like high school project style videos. And you know,
our fans liked them because it was an extension of
our sort of Canadian youthful running around energy. But then

(55:12):
it took like a month for the label to be
like MM one per week, here are the criteria, like,
here's some people to help you out with it. The
next one is premiering on like spin dot com. And
now instead of this goofy joke, it's like, oh, twelve
thousand people are going to comment about how this is
like goofy in the comments. Now I've become self aware
about it, and it's.

Speaker 2 (55:32):
There's no part of me. There's no part of me.
And I think that this is true that like, you know,
I have friends who are famous who like who've lost
their anonymity. No, it's just not worth it, Like it's
not because of the lifestyle that I want. And of
course I have like other friends who are famous, and
they get invited to parties that I'm like, oh, man,

(55:54):
you got to go to that dinner party, Like, tell
me who else was sitting there. I would have loved
to have been at that dinner party. Like for me,
it was the only thing that I would want out
of being famous. Would be kind of about getting invited
to the cool dinner parties, and mostly so I could
talk to those people, because I like talking to those people.
But also like with that target on your back, and

(56:16):
like I think, I don't know if I mentioned like
we did a TikTok that blew up about Chris Brown.

Speaker 1 (56:21):
Oh yeah, you were talking about it last week, and
now you've got the Chris Brown online army and.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
They're all there and I'm just like block, block, block,
and I'm like, this sucks, man, Like I liked it better.
You know, it's fine. And actually I'm not complaining because
it's not really a big deal. But I just just
a reminder of just like once everybody has to force
have an opinion about you, that's the line you don't
want to cross. You can stay just under the line

(56:47):
where people have to say if they like Billy strings
or not. That's the issue. Like, that's where I want
to stay, just under that, and those people have the
best lives, I think.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
I like, you know, I went to the Boy Genius
Show and they came to Toronto, and obviously it was
really cool to be there and you could feel the
moment was happening. It was rampact, big outdoor amphitheater, not
an inch of space on the long distant electricity in
the air. But also, I wouldn't want to be in
Phoebe Bridger's position, man, And that's scary to me. That's
like genuinely kind of frightening to be exposed in the

(57:18):
way that she is to the energy that it's obvious
is flowing around her, and it's a more power to her.
I think she seems to thrive on it. But I know,
thank you.

Speaker 2 (57:27):
Think, I mean, can you That's what's interesting? Like I
was literally talking about this the other day and my
buddy it was just like, can you imagine what it
would be like to be Tailor like and have be like, oh,
you've sunk the Latvian economy because you canceled your show there,
Like that scale is just not interesting to me. I'm not.

(57:49):
I just and just feels like misery. I have to
like I couldn't do it, and and and that and
and maybe the post like the pa of that is.
God bless those people that can like, but God bless
fever Bridge for getting through it every day, like, cause
it's got to be impossible to please people.

Speaker 1 (58:05):
And you can be you can wind up artistically trapped
by it. And that you don't have to be big
for your fans to not want you to change your
music style. But the bigger you are, the more you're
making a product for mass consumption. It's like if I
go to the grocery store and they changed pepsi every
two weeks, I would not be thrilled. I'm buying pepsi
for pepsi and there's you know there's once you're selling

(58:26):
music to a billion people, a certain amount of them
just want pepsi.

Speaker 2 (58:29):
They want pepsi again, this is like a Joe Rogan
layer amount of time that we've spent together.

Speaker 1 (58:35):
It's true. And now I have some some political statements
to make. By way of putting a food related button
on this, I wanted to ask on the Aras tour
and more generally on tour these days, what's your approach
to eating around being on tour and living as an
adult person on the road while eating.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
Food like this last tour, I tried something new, well,
I have him. My Google Maps is insane. Oh my god,
I bet it's stars everywhere, stars everywhere. And I had
a sub stack for a while that it's not done done,
but it was like a little bit and I start,
I had an app. There's a whole there's a whole
other four hour conversation. But next Tuesday, so I am

(59:17):
I am after after it and I started, I started
a little text message there with my buddy Adam Shatz.
He's a he plays on the name land Lady, plays
with Japanese Breakfast and Nico case Eric from Doctor Doug
and Alex Bleeker from real estate and he wrote a
book about food on the road. I was like, dudes,
on this tour, I wanted like, all right, I'm in Baltimore,

(59:38):
like where am I? But I want Middle Eastern And
because between the four of us, I figured that we
could do it. But because especially on the bus, like
I wake up and I'm in Pittsburgh and I don't
have anything to do till five, so like I want
to find the thing to eat, or like the museum
to go to and and or you know, the art
to see or whatever. But yeah, I'm very much like

(01:00:00):
I want to find the most the thing I can't
find anywhere else. It's one of the best parts about touring.
It's just getting to eat Syrian food in North Philly
and being like, holy.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
Shit, that's inspiring too, because I couldn't agree more. And
yet I fall into that proximity trap all the time
where it's like, well, the venue has a pub, maybe
I'll just have wings again.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
Oh god, yeah no I don't. I don't really, although
I don't really. I skipped dinner too, so I was
really only had one day. Yeah, I'm a very I'm
a consumer. I'm a consumer of towns. But I don't
know if that helps answer your question, not a very.

Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
It helps answer my question of next time I'm in Cleveland,
who do I text about where to get Syrian food?

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
So okay, so let me ask you one last question then,
what would be the one thing? Like A right, I
got lunch? What's your number? It's like, what's your lunch?
In Toronto? I got one? I got one lunch.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
I'd probably take you to the Federal. And it's just
like Ontario diner food. They have a good brunch, They've
got a good you know, burger, a couple of steak
free things, just good vibes in there. And there's one
right near it called Milu, which is a French sort
of oysters martinis. But it feels very it feels the
most Parisian of anywhere I've been in Toronto. It's all
and it's all film directors talking themselves up at every

(01:01:11):
other table.

Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
Okay, that's good.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
The Federal, Federal's great.

Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
And Melu's great.

Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
And it always hit me up if you need any
Toronto recommendations. And also if you're in Toronto and I'm
in Toronto, we can carry on this conversation in a
more three dimensional capacity.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
My new hack that we did that I figured out
last time. Because Montreal's an hour and a half from
us is we took the train from Montreal to Toronto.

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
It's incredible only way to travel. Have you gone to
Joe Beef in Montreal?

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
You must have? Oh yeah, that's the good stuff. Yeah, okay,
that's good to know.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
I still think it's up there.

Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
I mean I'm not cranky. I mean I'm not cranky
about it at all. I mean I've been there. Yeah,
that's great.

Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
So the answer to the final question from Ryan Miller
of Guster Joe Beef mid thank you very much for
on the show. Your banned from Montreal. We'll see you
next week.

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
We'll see you next week.

Speaker 1 (01:01:55):
Leb Brevner, thank you so much. Ryan, thanks for being
our first returning guest.

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
I love yeah, man, thanks for having me back.

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
Ryan Miller from Guster Great Talk, Major label debuts, first
ever two part interview, hopefully not our last. I could
talk for another thirty minutes about all the things that
that conversation taught me and all the thoughts that it provoked.
But you've just listened to like two full hours of
Ryan and I talking, so I will spare you any

(01:02:26):
more of my thoughts for now. Major Label Debut is
produced as usual by John Paul Bullock and Josh Hook.
Greg also wrote, performed, produced, et cetera, created entirely on
his own with his own two beautiful hands, our theme music.
Thanks for listening, Thanks to Ryan for being on the show.
Thanks to everyone for everything they've done. I'm just filled

(01:02:48):
with gratitude all the time. My cup runneth over. And
if you have anything to say to us, whether that's
ideas for guests we should have, or albums we should discuss,
or you know, current events we should pontificate about, please
feel free to reach out. We love to hear from
everyone via all the social media's and I don't know
all the internet stuff. Just don't DM me on Instagram

(01:03:09):
because I never check it. Yeah, that's it. Thanks so
much for listening. Major Label Debut will be back with
more tales from the intersection of art and commerce.

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):
See you then,