Independent Label Life with Lisa Fancher of Frontier Records

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Major Label Debut is the name of the podcast. Graham
Wright is the name of the host, who is me.
Do you care about what label puts out a record anymore?
Because it used to really matter, right, It used to
really matter to me. I'm sure it mattered to a
lot of you. You know, there's just a way of
following the output of a label, kind of the same

(00:28):
way that you'd follow the output of a band. You
know that whatever they're releasing is going to be at
least worth listening to. And I think that maybe secretly,
deep down, everyone who loves music thinks they can start
a record label, but it has been proven pretty conclusively
time and time again. Very few people can actually pull

(00:48):
that off, and honestly, even many of the people who
do maybe shouldn't. I love to talk about the intersection
of art and commerce, right. For a long time, record
labels were the undo it between those two worlds. I
guess that's starting to change now. But honestly, even if
every single record label disappeared off the face of the
earth tomorrow, their influence would be very much still present.

(01:12):
It really can't be overstated. Like you can't talk about
rock music without talking about record labels. They invented so
many of the pillars of how we understand and experience music.
At their worst, record labels obviously are not forces for good.
But a smart record label, a committed record label, a

(01:33):
label where they get it. That's a label that's capable
of ushering an artist to greatness and glory. And it's
happened countless times throughout rock and roll history. I'm not
here to pass judgment on whether record labels are good
or bad. I'm not here to get to the bottom
of anything. I just like to talk, and today I
get to talk to Lisa Fancher. Lisa is the founder

(02:09):
and soul driving force of Frontier Records, a record label
that everyone seems to agree is incredibly cool and really
is like the best case scenario of what a record
label can be. They put out records by tsol adolescents,
suicidal tendencies, red cross tons and tons more. Lisa changed

(02:30):
the course of a lot of people's lives, and like
I said, she pretty much did it entirely on her own.
This is no walk in the park. So although, like
every musician, I have done my share of griping about
record labels, sometimes you got to hand it to them,
and I gotta hand it to Lisa Fancher. She was
amazing to talk to and she had a whole bunch

(02:52):
of cool stuff in her zoom frame. So starting with that,
here is my conversation with the founder of front Records,
Lisa Fancier.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
Cords.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
Lisa. Before we really begin to talk about Frontier Records
and labels and the music business and everything, I simply
must ask about what at least looks to me like
the giant carton of cigarettes over your left shoulder.

Speaker 3 (03:29):
Believe it or not, that.

Speaker 4 (03:30):
Is a giant carton of cigarettes. My friend, my now
deceased good friend, Mike at It from Middle Class, had
a secondhand store. So one time I had pulled off
the freeway because it was raining so hard, and he
had just got that in the store and I was like,
I must have that carton of cigarettes.

Speaker 3 (03:44):
It actually lights up.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
Too, oh amazing.

Speaker 3 (03:47):
Yeah, it was.

Speaker 4 (03:47):
Taken from like the wall when they used to you know,
rive them to the wall. So it is sweet as heck.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
That is a perfect place to start, because something about
curating a secondhand store and also shopping a secondhand store,
is that you gotta have taste. Yes, it only works
if you have the right kind of taste, and taste
is such a hard to define and pin down thing,
needless to say. And also it's sort of like the

(04:15):
thing that drives art in a lot of ways. It's
you know, how people choose what they like, how people
choose what gets put out in the world, et cetera,
et cetera. You are clearly a woman of discriminating taste.
And I'm wondering how soon in your life as a
music listener, lover, collector later you know, facilitator, et cetera,

(04:37):
you began to realize that maybe you had above average taste.

Speaker 5 (04:42):
You know.

Speaker 4 (04:42):
I have to say it was pretty early on because
my older sisters I have three older sisters and had
now I have one. Anyway, I went through their record
collections and I would, you know, pick out the best stuff,
and you know, they kind of liked everything or what
was new or what was on TV. And I'd be like,
step in good, you know, butterish, conspiracy bat, you know whatever.

Speaker 3 (05:03):
But I was lucky enough to be there when they.

Speaker 4 (05:05):
Were opening their records for the first time, like are
you experienced and things like that, you know, where they
would leave and they'd be like, yeah, it was okay,
and I'd be you know, play it over and over
and over and over again. And then I just started
obsessively like going to you know again like drift stores
and like, I love that one Bobby Fuller song. I
need to know if there's more songs or is there
more forty fives? And you know, i'd find Caroly King

(05:26):
of the Wheels.

Speaker 1 (05:26):
And you know what was grabbing your attention most at first?
Was it simply the quality of the music. Was there
like cover art that you were drawn to where they're
you know, different, different little things that got you.

Speaker 4 (05:40):
I gotta say, being female, I definitely, you know, I
love the Left Bank because they were like cute and
they had their bowl cuts. And then when I saw
the Turtles, I was like, ew, they sing great but yucky.
You know, I know that's really mean, but a certain
feeling I got it from things.

Speaker 5 (05:55):
You know.

Speaker 4 (05:55):
It was like, you know, just that electric shock feeling
and your hair on your arm stand up. And if
it didn't do that, then you know it was okay.
But I didn't really seek it out.

Speaker 1 (06:05):
Do you remember the first record that really gave you
that electric shock?

Speaker 4 (06:09):
I don't know exactly what it would be. I mean,
I love the Beatles like crazy, but I think like
probably just you know, it's probably a kink song because
everybody loved the Beatles, and like, I also like the
exclusivity of liking bands that everybody wasn't into, or can
I turn you on to this? That kind of thing,
So it would probably be some you know, you really
got me or something I would say where you really

(06:30):
were just like knocked out or the Yardbirds. Those are
my two favorites, Like mid mid sixties.

Speaker 1 (06:35):
It's so interesting you've already identified. You know, we're talking
about taste and how ineffable it is. The aesthetics are
such a big part of it, and then so too
for different people. Some people really want to listen to
what everyone's listening to, and other people want to listen
to what no one's listening to and be the introducer
or the curator. And it's amazing for me to go

(06:56):
back and look at my meager, meager record. I would
never compare it to anyone's, let alone yours, and think
to myself, oh geez, when I was falling in love
with this, getting an electric shock from this twenty years ago,
it didn't occur to me that it might be because
of the aesthetic, or it might be because I wanted to
be iconoclastic, or I wanted to fit in, or et cetera,
et cetera. And I mean, I don't know how much

(07:19):
value there really is to interrogating those things. At the
end of the day, I think.

Speaker 4 (07:22):
It absolutely is because I haven't expounded upon this in
any meaningful way. But my favorite bands always had the graphics,
the way they dressed, and the music like it was
to me, it was the triumvirate. And if it's not there,
then I just don't care, you know. I can use
the example of Rocket from the Crypt. You know, they
had the suits, they had the horn section, graphics were incredible,

(07:43):
like they had it all going on, or the Cramps.
You know, I could just name my favorite bands ever
and if they just look like they just rolled out
of bed and got on stage, yeah, there's good bands
like that. Sure I won't name them, but you know,
yeah it's okay. But I like the ones that really
put a lot of thought into their whole thing.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
Was there a moment when you felt yourself shift from
being a music buyer of music? You know, in those days,
especially when there was no streaming. There's lots of music buyers.
People went to the store and bought music if they
wanted to listen to music. You, I think it's safe
to say we're more than that pretty quickly, right, You
were a curator, a collector, a thinker of music.

Speaker 4 (08:20):
I can't remember was I ran into a lot.

Speaker 5 (08:22):
Oh.

Speaker 4 (08:22):
I was talking to my friend Andy Zax I'll drop
some names, and we were talking about how like on
a Saturday, you would go hit all the record stores.
You go to the West Side and you go to
a House of records, and then you go to there
was a few on Hollywood Boulevard, and I can't remember
when Aaron's open. And I would also go to the Capital,
the famous infamous Capitol Record swap meet. You know, it
was Sunday morning, but it was you know, I'd take

(08:43):
the bus at like four or five in the morning
because I never ever thought that I was unsafe for
that was a stupid thing to do. I'd be like,
I need this Spencer Davis single and I'm going to
find it this week or whatever, and I would just
go take you know, go wait in the bus for
Sun Valley to go to Hollywood. You know, it's remarkable.
I wasn't killed by Richard Ramirez.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
Are the like, but good news for music fans everywhere, though.
We got to keep you yes exactly the Capitol Records swap.
I found out about it when I was getting ready
for this conversation for other ignorant listeners like me. Could
you briefly outline sort of what that looked like, what
that was, because I never There's nothing like that now.

Speaker 4 (09:18):
Okay, So record collectors being the fiends that they are,
it started out, to the best of my knowledge, I
might be speaking out of two it was all seventy
eight people. It was people looking for seventy eight and
it was actually right outside of Capital Records. I don't
know who gave permission or maybe the parking lot was
independently owned. So those guys would you know, be there
at two and three, you know, because they always have

(09:38):
to get there earlier than the other guys. And I
was pretty much alone all the time. And then gradually,
probably when I started going, which I would say seventy
two or seventy three, it was all you know, imports,
you know whatever. It was just rare records in general,
and because I didn't even have a record play let's
they played seventy eights, nor did I even care about

(09:59):
those until much later on. I went to Bob the
Bear from cant Heat's house and it was just seventy eight's,
like there was nothing in the house, but you know,
just you know, maybe one hundred thousand or something. I
don't know, so and I'd be like, well, that guy
must have really gone to the Capitol Meet for a
lot of time.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
And when you were going to the Capitol Meet, you're
still in high school at that point, right.

Speaker 4 (10:20):
I think I started going when I was in junior high,
but it might have been like last year, but it
was something like that.

Speaker 1 (10:25):
Yeah, and you were also DJing, playing some playing tunes
at the high school and the Quad.

Speaker 4 (10:30):
Yes, I had a show on the Quad, which is hilarious.
So boy, nobody liked what I liked, you know, because
when I was in high school was seventy three to
seventy six, so everybody was all about Pink Floyd and
whatever was that I hated. So I'd be playing Velvet Underground,
you know, the usual stuff, playing the dolls and every

(10:50):
do it.

Speaker 3 (10:52):
They hated it.

Speaker 1 (10:53):
Could you see them reacting as it was, Oh, I just.

Speaker 4 (10:55):
Heard about it from my other friends, like, you know,
like all the cool you know, cause some kids are
out there smoking, like the cool kids. But and other
people just didn't you know, they like the carpenter, you
know whatever. They just liked regular music on the radio
and they did not want to hear the Velvet Underground
or any of that stuff.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
So it's hilarious, did you dig it then, sort of
turning them off like that?

Speaker 4 (11:14):
Yes, my mission was accomplished. I don't I had this
weird thing where I don't know why I didn't try
to fit in, because that's what you do, you try
to make friends with everybody. I was a kid that
ate in the classroom with the teachers, you know. I
had some friends that I hung out with, but a
lot of my friends were older, so I just didn't
really vibe with my classmates.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
And I guess there is that when you love music,
when you really you know, and that's sort of certainly
for me and everyone I know that loves music. Junior
high high school was when it was really starting to
blossom and your oh my god, my whole life, my
identity is wrapped up in loving music, and I found
you almost need that exclusivity to give you that extra

(11:53):
boost to say, you know that I love music in
a bigger way, a purer way than just you know,
the kids that are listening to whatever's on the radio.

Speaker 4 (12:01):
And in those days, obviously pre internet, we found each other.
You know, you found you know, I wrote the people.
I wrote people at cream and I'd be like, I'm
such a big fan of you or Berzerkly Records. You know,
I bought the Modern Lovers record, you know, I did
to buy a stuff mail order. You know, you'd be
like leafing through the magazines and then you found and
I know a lot of them now. You know, you
still remember the music people all over the world, you

(12:23):
know wherever they are.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
So for me when that was all blossoming, maybe out
of some kind of latent narcissism, we don't need to
look too deeply into it, but I immediately knew in
my heart of hearts that I must be in a band.
I have to be the one that's on the stage,
on the record, in the photos, getting interviewed on much music,
et cetera, et cetera. That was it was the only

(12:45):
path I ever thought of. It wasn't long before you
were writing about music for Bomb, and you started working
there and got into the label side of things, which
is what we're here to talk about. But before you
walked through that door, were you daydreaming about walking through
that door? Did you want to be closer to music

(13:06):
just in any way, shape or form, or how did
your initial impressions of like doing music, of being behind
the scenes for lack of a better term, start to
manifest Right.

Speaker 4 (13:17):
As far as being in a band goes, I could
only picture myself as being like super famous and the
roar of the crowd and the idy adoration and limos,
but I never pictured the slog that it really is
in real life, so that part. And I'm also a
total dictator, like it has to be my way of
the highway. So I really never wanted to wish that
upon other band members. And I wasn't a folky and

(13:37):
I wasn't going to get up there with the guitar
by myself. So you know what, I never really you know,
I took less guitar lessons and stuff, and sometimes I think, like, nah,
maybe I could have auditioned for the Runway, But I
never really thought about being in a band. I always
wanted to turn people on to the music, not necessarily mine,
so I probably spared people.

Speaker 3 (13:56):
From some magany. I guess, well, never know, never know,
maybe else start a band right now.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
Maybe you should. You know, we'll just well, you can
change tracks of this podcast right now and just start demoing. Yeah,
you were really confident right off the top. It seems
like did it feel that way to you?

Speaker 4 (14:12):
I was, I pretty much like, Uh, I had a
bunch of these really dodgy, you know, my sister's forty
five's and stuff.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
So I wrote Greg shaw letter.

Speaker 4 (14:21):
I was a big fan of his because he did
Phonograph Record magazine and he worked at United Artists, and
he worked with all my favorite bands, Like I always
I Lovedroy Woods since I ever heard his name.

Speaker 3 (14:30):
And so I wrote Greg, and I was like, oh,
I have a bunch of my sister's records. They're really great.
You love him.

Speaker 4 (14:35):
You can probably sell them for a lot of money
because you know, they had the mail order business. And
then I was like, by the way, I'm the best writer,
Like you guys are terrible writers. I know you know
everything about music, but I'm way better than you guys.

Speaker 3 (14:45):
And he was. I guess he was tickled by that.

Speaker 4 (14:47):
So you know, he would let me write the occasional
thing or record review or things like that. And I
wrote for a lot of fanzines, Like any fanzine I
bought anywhere, I would ask him if I could write
a review or a feature or something.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
Could you just talk a little a bit about fanzines.
That's another thing that you don't encounter in that same
way anymore. It's like, here's a fan Instagram account, or
here's the fan tumbler if you're really lucky.

Speaker 3 (15:11):
The website or the email or something.

Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, what was the zine culture?

Speaker 5 (15:15):
Like?

Speaker 4 (15:15):
So I just kind of emulated people with other ones.
You know, there was a bunch of really great ones
on the East Coast. You know, there was like I
can't remember the name. It was like the t REX
fan Club magazine and the super early you know, New
York Rocker. They weren't stapled and kreddy as mine were.
But you know, basically, you just tried to interview whoever
you could. Then you'd you know, figure out how to

(15:36):
get pictures of I mean, even if it was you know,
even xeroxes were super rudimentary. Actually, the first fanzine I
did aforementioned high school, Greg shawl on me as mimiograph machine,
and it was called the Academy in Peril because of
course I love John Cale and they tried to throw
me out of school over it because oops, I did
say fuck a few times anyway, So later on I
had one. I had one called street Life with a

(15:58):
guy named Bob Morris, and we were sort of like
mini gold Mine. We had like listings of rare records,
and you know, I would just interview people I bumped into.
I interviewed Kim Valley, et cetera. But Greg, in his
infinite wisdom, let me interview the runaways and hang around
the runaways. He and Kim wanted to put together an

(16:27):
all girl band. So Kim liked me from the dart
and was.

Speaker 3 (16:31):
Like, she's gonna write it because she's sixteen too.

Speaker 4 (16:34):
So I wrote the cover story when I was in
high school, except further separating me from my classmates, like
what is your problem? They're terrible, you know? And then
I got him to play my high school.

Speaker 3 (16:49):
Did you know that? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (16:50):
I heard about that. That's amazing.

Speaker 4 (16:53):
Probably like ten people liked it, and the rest of
the people were just like, what is this garbage?

Speaker 1 (16:58):
But they came. You know, we tried to get our
high school band. We thought the way that will become success,
the way that will become famous, which we assumed would
be step one, yeah, was we'll just recruit a bunch
of bands that we love. You know. We'll email the
White Stripes and we'll shoot an email out to The
Strokes and Radiohead and we'll say we're putting together a
benefit concert because if it's for charity, they can't say

(17:19):
no at our high school here and in suburban Ontario,
and that should take care of it. They didn't write back,
and the show never came together. The Black Rebel Motorcycle
Club wrote back and they said, we'll come do it
if you pay for our flights from England, and we said,
let us look into it, and then we never wrote
them back.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
I'll get right back to you on that.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
But the Runaways came to your high school. I mean,
even if only ten people liked it, that must have
been quite the high.

Speaker 4 (17:42):
I mean, I think the auditorial, however many in hold
let's say it held five hundred, there's probably two hundred
people there and they sat through the whole thing. But
they just did not They're just not getting what this
kind of music is at all, because you know, they
all they like is progue. So yeah, you know, my
friends are on my wavelength and everybody else was like.

Speaker 1 (18:00):
Any other bands to the high school after that.

Speaker 4 (18:02):
No, that was actually April of seventy six, and then
I graduated that June, so that was it.

Speaker 1 (18:08):
Okay, So your career is a teen show promoter was
short lived.

Speaker 3 (18:12):
It was very short lived.

Speaker 4 (18:13):
And you know what, I wouldn't wish that on anybody either.
People that book bands, Oh my god, Like there's certain jobs.
I've been around them so much. I was like, manager,
keep it booking bands, you could keep that.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
So I'm glad you mentioned that, because Lisa, you're the
first record label person we've spoken to on this show.
And I feel like it's really belated, given that the
whole thesis of the show is talking about sort of
the intersection between art and commerce, and we've had the
so called art side heavily represented in the so called
commerce side less so, and you know, show bookers and managers.

(18:48):
These are all people who work as part of the organism.
There's this whole big apparatus that brings music from like
someone's brain to someone else's ears and the bands are
the forward facing part of it, but there's all kinds
of other people and those contributions are so influential and important,

(19:11):
especially in cases like Frontier Records, the label you started.
So all of which goes to say, I'm just really
glad to talk about that, And that's my segue into
your segue into the world of record labels, which was
via Bomb Records, right.

Speaker 4 (19:27):
Yes, I worked there for many years. Besides the magazine
I did, you know, I worked as SUSI. I did
the mail order and Greg had me type up his
entire record collection. That took about two years on these
little index cards, you know, tower one oh one, you
know whatever, So I had to type everything on there.
But somewhere along the way, I just was like, I've

(19:50):
done a fanzine, I've written for fanzines, I'm going to
put a record out, and I knew how to do
all the steps because I worked at Bomb, like I
used there. The Frontier logo was drawn by a guy
named Mick Toohey. He was an art director. He was
there for a while and then he left, and then
Diane's and Cabbage did all of my record covers up
until the three o'clock, which was you know a few

(20:11):
years later, and you know, I knew where you took
the jacket, and I knew how to get a record mastered.
I thought it was easy because they made it look
easy because they've been doing it a long time. But
the money part was rough and of from the bands,
you know, do you know break up before the record
came out, or they were dicks, whatever it was, and.

Speaker 3 (20:31):
But I didn't regret it.

Speaker 4 (20:32):
I just thought it would be I just thought I'd
put out one record. I was going to put out
the fly Boys and just see. I was writing for
like the local papers, briefly at the Herald Examiner in
the La Times, So I was like, I interviewed those guys.
They seemed like they got it together. I like them,
so I'll just give it a try. But it took
I started the record in seventy nine and we did
it Leon Russell's studio that he had in the Valley,

(20:53):
San Fernando Valley, and it just took us forever. Jim
Mankey from Sparks was the engineer, and a guy named
Scot Goddard who.

Speaker 3 (21:00):
Managed I don't know what you'd call him.

Speaker 4 (21:01):
He quasi managed the Dickies, who are good.

Speaker 3 (21:03):
Friends of mine.

Speaker 4 (21:04):
So we're like, well, you know, we just recorded in
the middle of the night and they charged me probably
a third of what it would cost to make an EP,
and you know, it was fun and I put it
out and of course they came to see me at
the bomb warehouse while I'm wrapping up records for mail order,
and they're like, oh, we broke up, but thanks.

Speaker 3 (21:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (21:21):
So I was like, that was March of nineteen eighty,
so that was the official beginning of the label.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
And what a beginning it was. It's interesting that you
mentioned quasi manager or whatever it was they did, and
it seems like it's really cool to me how some
of those lines were blurred, you know, it seems like
it was it's less about Well. I took the record
out of the bin and there in the bottom right
corner was a Columbia Records logo, and right then I

(21:48):
knew I wanted to be a record label. And it's
people who love music, who are around music. Did it
surprise you that it seemed easy or even that it
was possible to you yourself? Shepherd the creation of a
physical record that that one would wind out on a shelf.

Speaker 4 (22:05):
Yeah, I definitely thought like they just you know, when
they did it, they would just go take the record
to you know, whichever sometimes it'd be a messenger. They
just took the artwork somewhere and it all happened. And
I don't remember put people pulling their hair out or
saying I don't have the money or that those troubles recording,
And I'm sure there was because greg work was stiff.
I'm sure that was It was hell on earth for Greg.

(22:26):
But for me, it was just like I just continually
did not have the money and I'd have to save
up more money to do the next thing. So that's
why it took quite a bit of time to actually
put that record out. And then when they broke up,
I was like, well I tried, you know, that's the
end of that. And back to the drawing board, and
you know, I had a couple of jobs. I still
had jobs at record stores for years after that, because

(22:47):
I never felt comfortable cutting the cord.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
Did it feel it sounds utopian? To me from here
sitting here now, it just sounds like, oh my god,
could it ever have been so pure of intent and
execute shin? Did it feel that way.

Speaker 4 (23:02):
No, it just felt like just chaos, and it's one
more thing I don't have time to do. I mean,
it was many, many years before that that I had
completely flaked out and failed out of college. But I
really truly was rudderless. I was like, now, you know,
because I liked writing for the paper, but I never
liked like parameters like you can't say that, or Robert

(23:24):
Hilburn at the Times, would you know? I would review records,
you'd be like, I listened to that, it's not that good,
and I'd be like, well, you're an idiot. So I
didn't last long over there, but I wrote for Ken
Tucker was my boss for a long time. He loved
it when I just destroyed Sticks or Journey or like
that was his favorite. He would just send me out
on purpose to waste spend. So it didn't do me

(23:45):
any favors when I was doing Frontier because I would
run into the same people at shows or whatever. I'd
run into the publicist. They'd be like, I already hate
you from picking on my favorite artists.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
So well, it's this strange thing speaking of taste that
starts to happen. Is you realize I learned this throughout
my career in music is Oh, you're going to meet
a lot of people and you got to be careful
what you say. And then if you're not careful in
the other direction, you'd wake up one morning and you're
a bullshitter.

Speaker 3 (24:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:15):
Did you find it difficult at any point to keep
your soul so to speak?

Speaker 4 (24:19):
No, I just let it fly. There's I can tell you,
like the hoof and mouth disease I had. I probably
cost some bands their major label.

Speaker 3 (24:27):
Thing I was.

Speaker 4 (24:28):
I was a big fan of the Quick, and I
ran their fan club and stuff. And I didn't know
I was talking to or person. I'm just standing in
the lobby at the Star would and I'd be like
that fucking idiots, he should sign. I mean, he has
no taste, and I was it was what I was
talking about. And I'd be like, oh, here, my mother
call me. Okay, I gotta go. I mean I did
that all the time.

Speaker 3 (24:47):
You know.

Speaker 4 (24:47):
They'd pull out their card and be like I'm that person,
and I'd be like, I was kidding.

Speaker 1 (24:51):
I knew it was you.

Speaker 4 (24:51):
You know, run as fast as you can. I was
just never destined to jibe with the money people.

Speaker 3 (24:57):
Alas for me.

Speaker 1 (24:59):
Do you think that's part of what kept you going
with the label after the first release, you know, didn't
quite shake out the way that you had hoped.

Speaker 4 (25:08):
I would say, you know, and I did offer this
stuff to Greg. I will say that, you know, I
played them everything. I played him the fly Boys, and
he kind of got that. He's a pop guy, so
we liked that. But I played in the circle jerks
and I go, I'm about to put this out. It's
going to be a huge record.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
I don't want to that, and he was like, this
is terrible stuff, Like good lord, you know what is
this stuff?

Speaker 4 (25:40):
And I, you know, tell them what's happening in HB
with the kids, and they had their own look and
it wasn't like the weirdo Zero's thing. It was a
whole new thing and he just didn't get it all.

Speaker 3 (25:48):
So he's like, you you have.

Speaker 4 (25:49):
My blessing to do whatever you want. And yeah, there
was no danger of major labels liking any of the
early records I put out.

Speaker 3 (25:56):
Like, no chance, y'all.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
Did you find that running a label, being the label
because it was really just you at this point? Absolutely
was that a comfortable spot for you to be the
boss and you know, say what you wanted and do
what you wanted and champion what you wanted.

Speaker 4 (26:16):
Yeah, very much, because it was all my vision. But
also there's nobody to blame it on when you totally
fuck up. It's always good to have somebody there to
blame things on. But no, it was one hundred percent
all on me, whatever it was, you know, so buck
stopped there.

Speaker 1 (26:32):
Oh yeah, It's like how bands whenever, you know, the
plateau starts to happen. OG's we're not growing anymore. Let's
just fire our manager. That'll do something.

Speaker 4 (26:40):
Must be the manager's fault that we're not getting any
bigger because we need to go to that next level.

Speaker 5 (26:44):
I know.

Speaker 3 (26:45):
Oh I know.

Speaker 4 (26:46):
And those bands thought that if they shed me and
signed with IRS or whatever, that they would be like
RAM and I'd be like, nope, you're still playing clubs.
Some bands, you know went on and you know, did
great things or were good musically, but just one of
those things you can never predict.

Speaker 1 (27:02):
It is possible to mismanage or miss label or whatever
fuck up a band's career for them. Of course, bands
are plenty good at fucking up their own careers. But
as Frontier started to you know, you put out the
Circle Jerks record and they didn't break up before the
album came out, and people really liked that record, and
it started to go like I was.

Speaker 4 (27:23):
So unprepared because I didn't think it was The fly
Boys Part two. But I was shocked by how well
it did and I couldn't keep up with it. And
I had no credit or I had no funds or
anything like that.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
So what does that look like day to day back then?
Like you wake up in the morning.

Speaker 3 (27:38):
And get ready.

Speaker 4 (27:40):
I would probably work at Bomp some amount of hours
or maybe that whole day, and then I had a
job at Vinyl Fetish, which was a record store in Hollywood,
so I would either drive straight from there to that.
I was still writing for the Herold Examiner a little bit,
so sometimes it involved me dropping off my article to
Kentucker's apartment, then going to work, then going all the
way out to by Doug Stadium and maybe dropping records

(28:02):
off too. So it was pretty crazy, but it was
you know, that's a good problem as opposed to not,
you know, like the record not doing well. Twice I'd
be like, Okay, well you don't have any tastes, so
get lost.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah, and instead it must have been very vindicating.

Speaker 4 (28:15):
Yeah, it was like, you know, once I had the
Circle Jerks and did well, then the adolescents. I was
at Bomb as a matter of fact, I can remember,
and they called me up and they're like, we hate
Robbie Fields and could you put out our album God.

Speaker 2 (28:36):
Chill fuck up sad?

Speaker 4 (28:41):
You know, like people like Slash were just so unapproachable
and huge. There was like almost no game in talent
at all unless people did it themselves or figured out
how to do it.

Speaker 3 (28:50):
You know.

Speaker 4 (28:51):
There wasn't many options, which was kind of nice in
those days.

Speaker 3 (28:53):
This is eighty eighty one.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
Yeah, did you feel like you were part of a
community of Indiana labels? Punk labels at this moment? It
wasn't just Frontier that was starting to pop off, right,
It was happening all over.

Speaker 3 (29:06):
Oh yeah, that was absolutely discard.

Speaker 4 (29:07):
You know, those Discord and Alternative Tentacles and I know
those people, but I would say, yeah, and we're friendly,
you know now, But as far as LA labels go,
those just like all you know, when people started putting
out records, it just kind of ran the gamut. And
I think we're friendly rivals, Like I don't think any
thought I was big or a big label or anything,
but those definitely the big, bigger to smaller labels, and

(29:32):
Slash being like, we thought that was a major label
because they had like offices and stuff.

Speaker 1 (29:37):
Well, yeah, the hierarchy, even within the indie label scene
is so interesting to me. That there's indie labels that
are truly one woman driving around dropping off records at stores,
and then there's indie labels that have staffs and offices
and we're.

Speaker 4 (29:54):
Like, how do you get to how do you get
to that point? Like you took a flight of stairs
up and the it was a whole floor Slash and
people were busy doing giant mail out to us. You know,
I didn't have an office for like five years, or
it didn't even hire anybody for five years because I
was terrified of running out of money.

Speaker 1 (30:11):
Sure, I mean that seems to be I read that
our band could be your life book. I'm sure it's
been referenced too many times before, and one of the
takeaways I really got from it was be very careful
when you're starting a record label, because it's really easy
to run out of money and destroy all of your
friendships and become a villain through like financial mismanagement, and

(30:32):
so I think that the smartest thing you can do
is to not to be very very very careful, very careful.

Speaker 4 (30:38):
I mean, it's really great if you can get somebody
else's money to spend on your label, but I didn't
have that luxury. We could name many labels where they
had trust funds or whatever, but it just came from
me and how much work I did. But you know,
the first couple of years I was free from distributors
going bankrupt. So that was a whole new wrinkle on
the whole thing was getting stiffed when you're waiting for it.

(30:58):
So you could keep you know, put out another record,
or you know, maybe it was done in the can.
But I couldn't do jackets or press it until I
got money, and then I'd be like, oh, these people
went out of business or those people.

Speaker 3 (31:09):
So and that's been ongoing.

Speaker 4 (31:11):
Up until I started my own distributor with Mike Beer
from Beer City.

Speaker 1 (31:16):
That took a while, and we will get to it.
I was going to ask how I'm really this is
on my mind right now because any if I moved
my camera in any direction, I'm in the middle of
doing a big cleanup of my studio and opening a
bunch of boxes, and consequently there is crap from my
band everywhere, covering every available surface, and my band isn't
even together anymore, and there's still just stuff, physical stuff everywhere.

Speaker 5 (31:39):
What is it?

Speaker 3 (31:39):
Posters and stuff.

Speaker 1 (31:40):
Record posters, it's CDs, it's my lamb and it's it's
you know, it's a stack of like newspapers that my
parents saved over the first two and a half years
of our career before they got sick of printing out
articles to put on the fridge, et cetera, et cetera.
Vinyl mailers, vinyl YadA, YadA. In those years before you
had an office, I assume, before you had to warehouse

(32:00):
space was it just was that what your apartment house
looked like.

Speaker 4 (32:04):
Yep, my apartment was everything. I tried to, you know,
create a different living space than the stuff. I mean,
actually up through the circle jerks. I even live with
my parents, So I think I begged Greg and Susie
to let me mail out the stuff since they had
a real warehouse, because my parents were not going to
be having that stuff in their living room and a
bunch of crap and you know, and then when you
do a giant mail I mean a giant vinyl mail

(32:27):
out takes up a lot of rown.

Speaker 1 (32:28):
Oh my god. During the lockdown, the ten year anniversary
of our biggest record was in twenty twenty, which was
bad timing. But anyway, we Josh the producer of the podcast,
and I him in La and I in Toronto, got
really excited to fulfill our own merch and we set
up our own web store, and we did pre orders
and we were high fiving over the phone as like
hundreds of these pre orders rolled in. And then one

(32:50):
day the records showed up at my apartment and I
realized that I alone now needed to organize, pack, label,
and ship hundreds of records. And the funds started to
wear really quickly. I was going to say, how much
time were you spending just like taping boxes shut?

Speaker 4 (33:07):
It was a significant amount of time. And there was
also you know, just fielding. You know, I was a publicist,
I was the marketing person. I took the orders, so
just keeping all that stuff straight. And I don't even
think there was posteds in the early day piece of
paper where it's like I need to mail this to
some guy. Where'd that piece of paper go. And you know,
I tried to be as organized. I'm a pretty organized person,

(33:29):
so but it sucked, like it sucked, and then working
and then just being tired and being ugh, forgot, I
have to mail this out, you know, before the record
comes out instead of after the record comes out.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
And then going to show as I imagine every single night.

Speaker 4 (33:42):
Pretty much, pretty pretty much that was, you know, either
my own bands or just bands I was checking out.
There's so many clubs and so many shows, so it
was just like being kind of exhausted. But it was
I mean, I'm not saying it wasn't fun, but it
was like, you know, gosh, it would sure be great
to be able to delegate some of this stuff, but
it was just too scary.

Speaker 1 (33:59):
Yeah, and that's cost money, you know. And then you
have a person that needs to get paid every two.

Speaker 4 (34:03):
Weeks, and then can I pay them for more? You know,
if they leave a job they have, will I be
able to keep paying them? And that worried me too,
and stuff.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
You know, at this point, were you starting to actively
seek out bands to to sign.

Speaker 4 (34:16):
Honestly, I would either get a tip from somebody, you know,
sometimes a lot of the time would be like Frank
Agnew from the Less and so would be like, you
gotta sign Christian Death. Oh my god, they're so offensive.
Oh my god. You know, my brother Rick is carrying
around a Crispy Cat that they found, and and they
do these art shows and they're really disgusting, and I was.

Speaker 3 (34:34):
I was super intrigued by it.

Speaker 5 (34:45):
Compition, and then I met with you Oz and I'd
be like, you guys want to make a record and
they're like yeah.

Speaker 4 (34:55):
And I didn't really I hadn't even really heard them
that much.

Speaker 3 (34:58):
I had. I had seen very little of them.

Speaker 4 (35:00):
I don't think I had to, you know, if I
was there to see one band or the other, you know,
ts L would be on the bill or China Wide
or something like that. I think, even to this day,
I don't think anybody ever mailed me a demo tape
where I like signed them from a demo tape. I
think it was always a tip from.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
Someone, which is so often how it works. That's funny.
Right before I got on with you, I found from
high school this notebook that has painstakingly written out the
names and addresses of all the different record labels, basically
just that I could think that I could think of,
you know, right and carried within those words on that page.
Is that dream that I'm going to put my demo
in a Manila envelope, I'm going to a fixed efficient

(35:38):
postage and wait four to six weeks and then someone's
going to show up at my door on a limousine
with a record contract and off all go.

Speaker 4 (35:45):
Absolutely, you just have that confidence, like they're going to
hear this and it's not going to be like all
the other crap. And even we used to get trash
bags full of demos, like you know, there's just magazines
like Music Connection, if your name was in it, you
just get all these demos and they didn't know where
a punk label. Every kind of music hilarious. You know,
we kept the eight x tens because they were just hysterical.

Speaker 1 (36:04):
Did anything ever come through that? Years later you're like,
oh shit, Green Day, Maybe I should have put that one.

Speaker 4 (36:11):
On probably, but you know, I think I still wouldn't
have liked it. You know, there's been times where I
could have made money if I signed certain bands. I mean,
there's the ones that still kill me, that feel like
a sword in the side, But then there's ones where
it's be like, you know, I just couldn't do it,
even if I knew I was going to be super rich.
But then this is why me is like, I should
have just said, take the money, just take them mind,

(36:33):
nobody will be mad, just take it.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
Well. I think that's one of the things that's so
fascinating about labels, and how much labels too, as much
as they might seem like if not faceless corporations, then
many faceted corporations, but they can still be so shaped
and guided by the personalities behind them. And you know,

(36:55):
I know indie labels here that are tremendously financially successful,
and the people in charge of them are hustlers, and
they're guys who you think, oh, you know, if you
had started a sandwich shop instead of a record label
or a skateboard company or a you know, an index fund,
you would have any which way, you would have made
a lot of money. And then there's people like yourself,

(37:16):
if I may opine, after having spoken to you for
thirty five minutes, who it seems like if you had
started a sandwich shop, it would have been great, and
the sandwiches would have been amazing every single time, and
it would have been like the cool good sandwich shop.

Speaker 4 (37:29):
And that would be no chain vibes at all.

Speaker 1 (37:31):
It wouldn't expand, it wouldn't get into that growth mindset,
you know, as the label kept going, as money became
a consideration. Obviously you weren't going out trying to sign
the next Rush record to make a million bucks. But
did you ever find your compass starting to waiver? Did
you ever have to have any hard conversations, even just

(37:52):
with yourself, about whether you were gonna, you know, do
something a little more for money than just for the
love of the game.

Speaker 4 (38:00):
Well, you know, I would go to those things like
new Music seminar and CMJ. And when I did finally
hire somebody, his name was Graham Hatch. He was there
to do radio, but he did kind of everything, and
he saw the big picture and he was dying to,
you know, wade in and make lots of money and
take it internationally. And it just wasn't my just wasn't
my deal. I think I frustrated the hell out of

(38:21):
him because he had great ideas.

Speaker 3 (38:23):
Liked be like, you got to.

Speaker 4 (38:24):
Get a fax machine so I can fax people and
people playing the record. I'd be like, why it seems
such a stupid thing. And then it you know, everybody
had a fax machine. But I'd be like, why would
I do that? But I would go to those things,
and then like I would meet somebody. Remember Mammoth Records.
Do you remember Mammoth?

Speaker 3 (38:41):
He had a business plan. I'd be like, what is
a business plan?

Speaker 4 (38:44):
It was like two inch thick phone book of you know,
all these things, how much you project you're gonna make
in the future. It was like, I don't know what
I'm going to be doing from day to day. I
don't know how many records I'm putting out next year.

Speaker 3 (38:54):
I don't plan like that.

Speaker 4 (38:55):
It's just like either something is good enough for me
to get behind it or not. But I can't say
I'm putting it up five releases next year. I just
never was that person at all.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
Well, this is happening. We won't go record by record
because we'll be here all week. But you're a punk label.
I'm not the world's foremost punk authority. So in terms
of like when did punk officially start and that sort
of thing, I won't offer an opinion, but I think
it's safe to say that over the course of the
eighties and certainly the nineties, punk's position in the mainstream

(39:26):
pop culture shifted or grew, or it took on, you know,
it headed towards the mainstream and bands started to really
truly blow up. And as we see time and time
again talking to different people from different scenes on this podcast,
the eye of soar on of the record industry tends
to swivel towards those scenes. What was that like from

(39:47):
your perspective, to go from punk being you know, counterculture
and smaller time and the kids at the quad at
high school covering their ears when they heard it two
dollar signs getting in eyes about this vary same kind
of music. What was it like on the ground.

Speaker 4 (40:01):
I mean, it was entertaining to me because I had
pretty much already moved on, Like I just wasn't doing
that anymore. After the Suicidal record, I'd pretty much felt
like I had mined everything that was good in the
punk world.

Speaker 1 (40:12):
Not in my room. I just like doing it walk
thinking about everything they out thinking about done.

Speaker 4 (40:19):
But to see them chasing Green Day, no FX, you know,
bands that were more poppy and more palatable, you know,
don't I don't begrudge them anything like Blink one eighty two,
Is it really punk. I don't know, but they thought
it was punk. And those people are the gateway where
even for their kids or the adults or whatever, where
they go back when those bands are doing interviews and

(40:40):
then they go, oh, circle jerks, I better I should
check them out. So I never Yeah, I was never
mad about them being successful. And again, like you see
yourself in that position of it being really fun to
be on top, and you never see any of the
strife and how awful it is and sleeplessness, and then
you know once you've achieved great heights like keeping up there.
I just never wanted to work that art.

Speaker 3 (41:00):
Really.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
Did any of the majors ever come sniffing around to
hire you to do an R or to even consult?

Speaker 4 (41:07):
Yeah, I was just trying to When I knew I
was doing this, I uh was just walking down memory
lane and I remembered this YouTube thing. My first great
brush with the major label was Island Records because the
Long Writers had done really well in England. So a
guy named Nick Stewart and the other guy from Stiff
Records that wasn't Jake Rivieriro's name was Dave Robinson. They

(41:29):
were in LA and they were all about Paisley Underground.
So I met with those guys and you know, quasi
and pressed. They didn't really know what they were talking about.
They were just looking for the next big thing. And
so of course I'm completely sent like one cynical.

Speaker 3 (41:44):
So they just made it.

Speaker 5 (41:45):
It was.

Speaker 4 (41:45):
They did a little piece it's on YouTube, and they
did a little piece on LA and Paisley Undergrounds the.

Speaker 3 (41:50):
Next big thing.

Speaker 4 (41:51):
And these are all the bands and two of them
were mine, which was Thin White Rope and the Pontiac Brothers,
and then they did the rain Parade.

Speaker 3 (41:58):
All those bands like that. They actually got.

Speaker 4 (42:01):
We got as far as like deal memos and you know,
having lots of meetings and talking. Their grand plan for
me was it was going to be called the New
Frontier and they were going to make me into a
farm team. And I was like, I'm not going to
do that. What are you talking about? And they're like, yes, yes,
you know, you must do this, and you know, maybe
I should have done it. I don't know, but I
thought they were. I thought both of them are idiots.

(42:22):
And I found out later that Nick Stewart was this
beloved guy and he always took credit for signing you
to which I don't believe for one second.

Speaker 3 (42:30):
Anyway, there's a.

Speaker 4 (42:31):
Video on YouTube where they go, you know, they have
the bands playing, so it looks like it's organic and
they're really playing. But they had set up all the
bands playing and all that stuff. And I'm in a
record store leafing through records and then I do a
little interview about the Pace Integrons. It's like, oh, it
was so dumb. And then I didn't have any brushes
with major label greatness for a few years after that,
but that one was pretty entertaining. And you know, again,

(42:54):
I was just like, I can't do that.

Speaker 3 (42:55):
I just can't.

Speaker 1 (42:56):
It's taste in the same it's tasting people. You know,
you're in a room with two guys seem.

Speaker 3 (43:00):
And they got fired.

Speaker 4 (43:01):
I would say, I don't even think they got through
a year. I think they got through like six months.
So there's nothing there's one thing about being on a
major label. Being there when the people that signed you
were fired, fate worse than death. Like it's just not
a good place to be because nobody will even make
eye contact with you. They're just like, we know that
the next time that there's a budget, E're out the door.
So they won't even take your calls or anything. So

(43:23):
I think I did the right thing. It was just embarrassing.
I was like, nobody's oh, I'm going to change the
name of my label for you guys.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
Now, yeah, and the I mean I'm extrapolating, but I
can only imagine like the arrogance with which these ideas
get pitched. They're so proud of themselves and they're like,
they're giving you a gift here, We've made this all
laid out for you too.

Speaker 3 (43:43):
And I was like, I used to like you too.

Speaker 4 (43:44):
I hate them now. I mean, they're fucking awful. Like
I liked the first record, but you know, they're a
bunch of stuffed shirts. They always do the same thing,
blah blah blah.

Speaker 3 (43:52):
And they were like, how dare you?

Speaker 4 (43:54):
But Dave was really cool because of Stiff, you know,
like that was he was great and I liked him
a lot. But anyways, there was no chance that that
was happening. And you know, I don't think like word travels.
But nobody was interested after that. And in truth, you know,
the guitar based bands that I did Naked Pray in
those bands, they didn't sell that well, so they're only
going to come knocking at your door. If you have
something going on, you know, they'll try to steal it,

(44:15):
and if they can't, then they'll try to bring you
on board. Yes, is my feeling about the matter.

Speaker 1 (44:19):
They want it one way or the other, and if
they have to pay for it, they will.

Speaker 3 (44:22):
They have to bring you along. If the bands are
actually loyal, then they will.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
And we'll get to talking about streaming, speaking of doing
it for free, but on the way to that and
by way of getting into the music business more so,
you alluded a few minutes ago to getting stiffed by
a distributor. I know that's happened to you more than
one time. What was the first There was.

Speaker 4 (44:45):
Some small ones that failed. I can't remember their names anymore.

Speaker 3 (44:49):
Gosh, there was you know.

Speaker 4 (44:51):
It wasn't a lot of money. It just it just
was like a glancing blow. It wasn't huge. The one
that was murder was when Jem went down.

Speaker 3 (44:59):
Because I'll just say it.

Speaker 4 (45:02):
They were all all the top management and all the
people on the world, super coke heads, and they spent
every dime a they started a label. When your distributor
starts a label, don't do it and be you know,
if you see any signs of drug habits, run screaming.
But they were like my number one for years. Oh
and there was another one. It was uh Enigma Rose

(45:22):
from the Ashes. It was one called Green World and
one called Sounds Good and you know, sounds good in
Green World. It was a few thousand or something, but
gem was painful. It was probably know fifty to one
hundred thousand that I got burned for. And you just
can't come up with that again, you know what I mean.
It just like you just have to wait and you know,
bide your time and press a little bit of this

(45:44):
and you know, whatever sells the most and that kind
of stuff.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
Oh and it just poof into thin air. You're like,
now this is in the drug dealer from Bogie Knights's house.

Speaker 3 (45:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (45:53):
And then if they were clean copies that were in
the warehouse, then you get them back again and you
have to give somebody credit if they weren't drilled. So
that was fun that I found out about it, And it
didn't even ever occur to me that you know, you'd
have to take them in the dumpster out back and
like pour water all over to make sure the records
were destroyed.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
I remember the first time I heard about the destruction
of you know, of returns, I was like, I don't know,
that's that's crazy. Yeah, so correct me if I'm wrong.
But the basic it's like, okay, so you're you make
the Suicidal Tendency's record, and then I'm like, I'm Graham's distribution,
and so I say, I'm going to distribute those records.
So all buy a hundred of them from you, yes,

(46:32):
And I send ten to each of my friends who
have record stores, and then each of those record store
sells one, so they all have nine left. They say, okay,
well we couldn't sell these other nine. They're going to
send them back to me, or if I don't exist anymore,
back to whoever has replaced Graham's.

Speaker 3 (46:46):
Distribution for the next person that carried your label.

Speaker 4 (46:49):
So when you desperately need to start getting paid, then
the people that weren't on top of the deadlines, because
you always have a schedule of deadlines that you have
to return this stuff by. You know, you take returns
for a period of months, certainly weeks, but a period
of months.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
But then in order to write off those records, you
can't write them off and sell them, so you have
to destroy them.

Speaker 4 (47:09):
I could, I could write out I mean, they made
tax laws a lot different. I could write them off
in the early days, but I think it was like
tougher and tougher to do that because you didn't really
know how many were out there, so you'd just be like,
you know, I did a little bit of lying, but
it didn't help because at the end of the day,
you still don't have any money for them, so it
really doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
It's so heartbreaking. It's such a labor of love, especially
the way you were doing it all by yourself, and
then for the final fate of these things to just
be to have a hole drilled in them or water
poured over it.

Speaker 4 (47:39):
It was just something you didn't even think about, was
things like things collapsing, because I don't know what it's
like if you're in the stationary world or you know,
I'm sure book and prints go out of you know, whatever,
But in my world, we didn't. It didn't even occur
to you that like it would be a continual process
of distributor's failing. So anyway, long story, I had a

(48:00):
bunch of those happened in the late eighties and the
music business in general has been a collapsing black hole
for many decades. Yeah, and probably ever since Moe Green
was around.

Speaker 3 (48:11):
But uh, I guess.

Speaker 4 (48:13):
Eighty nine or ninety I signed a deal with RCA
and it was supposed to be American Music Club, Thin
White Rope and the Pontac Brothers, and I only got
a Thin White Rope record out before the head of
the of RCIA got fired, Bob Buziak, and he was
a great guy. I had a great experience.

Speaker 1 (48:32):
I expect.

Speaker 2 (48:34):
Lead dollars.

Speaker 4 (48:48):
All I wanted to sign a band was fifty thousand dollars.

Speaker 3 (48:52):
I didn't want two hundred and fifty one.

Speaker 4 (48:54):
I could make a pretty good record, pretty serviceable record,
and put the band, you know, buy him a band,
and put them on tour, and then the next time
I got fifty thousand we would decide on or whatever.
And they liked that idea because it wasn't any big
outlay of cash that they couldn't accomplish.

Speaker 3 (49:08):
And the record did okay.

Speaker 4 (49:09):
KK Barrett from the Screamers did the video, and Bab
Bouziak always called back when I needed them, and that
was good. However, it was just too utopian, so that
didn't last long and then I was with BMG after that,
which wasn't a major label, but I went through major
label distribution. Nice people, wrong label, just totally the wrong label,
one hundred percent. We were just too small for them.

(49:30):
They had really big best selling shit.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
How does that manifest? Like? What is that? What's like
the mechanic of that failure?

Speaker 4 (49:37):
You know, we just sent whatever extant goods that we had,
we sent them and they either stickered it or if
it was a new record I had coming out, like
they manufactured it in Indiana because they had real hits.
They had plants all over the country, so if something
Rod Store was a hit, they could just press more
or whatever. So I ran into the interesting problem was
that the women in the warehouse wouldn't touch certain of

(49:59):
my records. Woul I thought was hysterical loved.

Speaker 3 (50:02):
It Christian Death.

Speaker 4 (50:03):
They would not even put gloved hands on it. They're like, we,
you know, we're too religious for that. And so BMG
was like, we tried like three of our plants, and
you know, anyway, things kind of were like this, and
then they were just like a total mess. I think
it lasted three years, but it was really limp and along.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
Because it'll happen with like when you're a small thing.
We ran into this. Well it's been really interesting, and
I want to talk about format shifts. But during the
Vinyl resurgence, something that we found more and more was
happening to us was we'd have, you know, a pressing
of five hundred or three hundred LPs in a queue,
and it would strangely keep getting bumped out of the

(50:44):
queue because they'd be like, well, we're going to manufacture
one hundred thousand Taylor Swift record store Day exclusives or the.

Speaker 3 (50:51):
Hell of record store day.

Speaker 4 (50:53):
That's a whole nother conversation. But you know, there's whole
record pressing plants that just press rumors, like they don't
do anything but rumors like twenty four because somebody always
buys rumors. And if you have a record store, if
you get a used copy in, that's the first thing.
People will just head to the used bins.

Speaker 3 (51:10):
How do you not have one already? How do you
you know?

Speaker 4 (51:12):
And it's just the bane of my existence because ever
since I worked at record stores in the seventies, I
hate that fucking band. I hate that record, so it
still haunts me everywhere.

Speaker 1 (51:20):
Got It's amazing how just how every literal everything is
an impediment, Everything is psych everything is an impediment.

Speaker 3 (51:27):
But Record Store.

Speaker 4 (51:28):
Day, you know, once people started buying records again, it's like, okay,
stop because you have to hit all your deadlines starting
the November before that April. I don't even know when
it is now. I don't even know when Record Store
Day is.

Speaker 3 (51:40):
I gave up. I just gave up on it.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
There's two a year now, yeah, it's two a.

Speaker 4 (51:44):
Year, but they've moved during COVID, you know, it was
always sort of tax time, and then it became June.
I don't know when they have it. Anyway, your deadline
start the November before, and if you miss your deadlines
or they don't have it or they don't have the goods.
Now they've taken more and more control over it. But
it just drove me absolutely, and it didn't really make
something sell a lot more, bring it to another level
because everybody got in on it, so we could whine.

Speaker 3 (52:06):
About them forever.

Speaker 4 (52:07):
But that became just a nightmare for me, and I
just was like, I don't won't want to be part
of it.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
Yeah, we stopped saying yes, to that stuff as well,
just because it's like, well that's and also I want
to get my album pressed, you know, some novelty single
that the label had us to cook up.

Speaker 4 (52:20):
But everybody's just screaming at them, like, no, I have
to have it. Even if they blew all their deadlines
and they gave the pressing plan everything a month before
the deadline, invariably they you know, even if they made
you pay up front, like you were just completely screwed
for record store. So that's like half of the year
where you screwed them. You add COVID to the magic,
but my pressing plant, which is Rainbow ever since basically

(52:41):
the beginning, like I pressed one record at Alco and
then I went to Rainbow since like eighty one. They
closed in twenty nineteen right before COVID, and I had
to move all my stuff to my new plant, which
was Furnace. And then COVID hit and people couldn't you know,
be you know, shouldered shoulder on the line. You had
to have people very far apart, so you had Record

(53:03):
store Day, you had all this shit. It was like
the twenty twenty was like the absolute worst worst yearst year. However,
everybody was at home shopping.

Speaker 1 (53:10):
Yes, they were home.

Speaker 4 (53:11):
They didn't have anything to do but buy records. And
those were like the Magic years, two years of just
people buying stuff all the time.

Speaker 1 (53:18):
So there was an upswing in sales for Frontier during
that period.

Speaker 4 (53:23):
And everything cost a lot because we couldn't get vinyl,
we couldn't get cardboard. There was such a shortage of
each thing down the line. We couldn't get somebody to
master it. So when you had something, we just blow
five hundred out the door. You know, we brought things
down to earth again. But you know a single record
was thirty bucks. Yeah, yay cash flow.

Speaker 1 (53:43):
So Frontier Records has existed over I think it's five
format shifts, going vinyl tape.

Speaker 4 (53:50):
CD set tapes, which I never liked. Then those stupid
things came back, I know. But the most miserable thing
was when CDs came in those long boxes. Do you
remember long block?

Speaker 1 (54:00):
I know about long boxes.

Speaker 4 (54:02):
But if you touched it at all, it collapsed it
and then the store would return it because it looked
like shit. So that was the worst thing ever. Then
it was just like they built the bins to accommodate CDs.
Everyone sold all the records, bought CDs and then some
of them failed even record disc like, they didn't play
after a couple of years, and then they'd have fucked uh,
and I'm gonna buy vinyl again.

Speaker 3 (54:21):
Then I go buy CDs again.

Speaker 4 (54:22):
And then Napster came along, which I wasn't mad at
because you know what, I don't think it was. I
did not love people stealing stuff, but it turned people
onto a lot of bands. You could just you know,
LimeWire or whatever. You could hear things, you know, it
was easy to hear things.

Speaker 1 (54:36):
All of a sudden, and this is when I was,
you know, thirteen fourteen is when Napster was coming out,
and so just as I was coming online as a
music lover, it became pretty easy to get not just
you know, the B side by your favorite band, but
a B side by the most obscure band you could
even imagine, and be something.

Speaker 4 (54:57):
You'd only heard of, and you could at least hear
it or put it on your own computer or something.
And I found a lot of people did buy the
record after they heard it.

Speaker 1 (55:05):
Track.

Speaker 4 (55:05):
Didn't love it, don't love Spotify, but you know, it
is what it is. And speaking out against napster really
horrible idea, especially if you're an indie label, just you know,
just don't Was.

Speaker 1 (55:16):
There a lot of brow furrowing and hand ringing at
the time among the Indian.

Speaker 4 (55:22):
Oh yeah, there just the same as cassettes, Like, oh,
people are going to tape a record and we're going
to lose sales, and it's like you created a new method.
So there's always going to be something that you don't
like about how it works out, just how it's going
to be, whether it destroys the environment or somebody tapes
a record over like it just roll with it because
it's not going to didn't put anybody out of business

(55:43):
or anything.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
Then what about when streaming came along. I was talking
to producer John Paul yesterday and sort of came to
the maybe obvious realization that you know, there was this
gradient where it went, Okay, there's CDs, and now there's
MP three's, and now there's iTunes, and you're you're buying
an album on iTunes and then they're streaming. And I
remember at the time feeling like streaming was the next

(56:06):
iteration of iTunes, But now I feel like, oh no,
iTunes was more like Tower Records than it was like Spotify.

Speaker 3 (56:14):
Yeah, people were.

Speaker 4 (56:15):
Still buying a whole album. You know, you could you
had the I had the option of you could buy
a track or they had to buy the whole album
or something like that. Like you had some choice. But
there was like really super early where there was e music,
where it was a subscription based. There was just like
every kind of people trying to get something off the ground.
So iTunes was the first time. I still use it sometimes.

(56:36):
I buy stuff on band camp all day long. Like
band Camp's great love it. Somebody tells me they put
a new thing. It's not going to kill me to
spend three dollars if they put a single on band
Camp's not gonna kill me. I don't need to stream
it on spot I don't even have spot on. I'm
so bitter about Spotify. I don't even have it.

Speaker 1 (56:50):
So so there so because usually you know, we have
bands on and speaking of it not being beneficial to
talk too much shit publicly, talking about becoming a bullshit
or I certainly did some dsp bullshitting in my time.
Because you want to get on the playlists and you
want to get on the Discover weekly or whatever. But
let's talk about Spotify and streaming in general just for

(57:12):
a second. And I know that you have spoken before
about how the major labels. I don't know if corrupted
is quite the right word, because it's not as though
Spotify was ever perfectly pure. But they jumped into the
beginning and made sure they got themselves a pretty sweetheart deal, right, Yes, they.

Speaker 4 (57:29):
Got the money when they were sewing the shit out
of it for copyright infringement. They got all the money
in the sweet perks, and we still don't even know
what that is, but it's a bazillion times more than
indie labels did, and then everybody else gets all the crumbs,
but we don't even know. It's not like you sign
an agreement with Spotify like I need this much money
for this many plays. It's like it could be a

(57:50):
billion plays for a penny or whatever. They have so
many tears, and they keep that secret, and I know
because I've been in a lawsuit for a long time
about the shit. They keep that more closely held than
Coke keeps their formula. Like you do not know how
many streams or you can't say I want to be
this tier but not that tier. It's just like if
it's the subscript, if it's the free one with the ads,

(58:11):
it could be like one zillion things. Just one statement
for one month is tho, like seventeen thousand pages and
you just give up, like you can't even go through it.
You can't audit it, and you can't complain either. It's
just like it is what it is. But people love
it so at the same time they're like, I sold
all my records now because I just listen to Spotify

(58:32):
and I'll be like, your soul is zombie fuck off.

Speaker 1 (58:35):
Well it does. It changes your brain, It changes what
music is. And maybe not for you, maybe not for me,
because we remember and our minds were formed. But you know,
I look at my nieces and nephews and they're little,
tiny kids and they just ask Alexa to play music,
and it plays music. And because when you were stealing
something on Napster, you still knew that you were taking something,

(58:58):
there was this a sense fleeting of like I'm taking
this as opposed to this is just mine. I am
entitled to this. Music is just a great ocean of
content and I just go press the button.

Speaker 4 (59:10):
You can listen to anything ever made that's in print
or even not in print, like I put things on
the Orchard is my digital aggregator, but you just put
things that I don't. There's no reason to do physical
copies because it sells so little. So you listen to
Naked Prey anytime you want to, So in terms of that,
you know that's good, and then.

Speaker 3 (59:27):
You can go find a used.

Speaker 4 (59:28):
Copy on eBay or what have you. But yeah, it's
like you know, and that's the predominant format now. So
I don't know if something will give if people ever

(59:49):
buy physical copies again.

Speaker 3 (59:50):
Yeah, they could do record store day all day long.
I don't know if it'll ever bring back the music business.

Speaker 1 (59:54):
It's really interesting to me how I have a friend
who plays metal, and it seems like in the metal
community there's a real sense of like, we're buying the record,
We're buying the T shirt to support the band first
and foremost, you know, it's a way of giving. And
so they're move and merch like crazy because people are
just they'll they'll buy it for the sake of buying it.

(01:00:15):
And I begin to wonder if indie music and punk
music and other genres are going to start moving more
and more in that direction of like almost passing the
hat as the actual you know, the music itself becomes
increasingly internetified.

Speaker 4 (01:00:28):
I would say as a class of music or as
a genre, like punk people do not like they hate CDs.
They always hated CDs, like they really want vinyl, like
they're super Vinyl loyalists.

Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
Why do you think that is? Is there something punk
about vinyl?

Speaker 4 (01:00:42):
Yeah, you know, just that it's the original thing. I guess,
you know so, But they just hate MP three's and gosh,
bless them, you know. So at least we'll have some
amount of sales, but it's not enough to make up for,
you know, as they age out, not enough to make
up for people that jumped out of the buying physical
product game. But now CDs are coming back because it
took so long to get albums pressed, the CDs are

(01:01:04):
selling again.

Speaker 3 (01:01:05):
Not well, like I can barely give away punk CDs.
It's the other bands that people like.

Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
I have this theory that as soon as the last
cars that had a tape player or a CD player
stop working, that's when the medium comes back, you know,
now that you can't listen to it in your car anymore.

Speaker 4 (01:01:21):
Yeah, it drives me absolutely insane because I just listened
to stuff on car play because my stupid car doesn't
have a CD player in it, and I like CDs.
I have no problem with CDEs. They're portable. If I
bake it in the sun, just get another one, I
don't care. But and it's the only place I can
pretty much concentrate as my car. But yeah, I have to,
you know, do auto play so I can listen to
stuff I just bought on band camp and it makes

(01:01:43):
me crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:01:44):
What's your favorite way to listen to music.

Speaker 4 (01:01:46):
I mean, it's definitely records, but it's like there's just
always something going on or I have to check what
Bonehead did today or who he fired or whatever. So
it's just hard to concentrate unless i'm either just you know,
I make a point of walking a lot, so I
have my head, you know, my earbuds in and stream
whatever it is not on Spotify, but you know, band

(01:02:08):
camp or whatever. I have, you know, Apple Music. Yeah,
I don't know what was so wrong about iTunes, but
now it's Apple Music.

Speaker 1 (01:02:15):
And it's all on the same There's this flattening that
happens where it's like, oh, I can go over to
the New York Times or to you know, Blue Sky
or whatever, and get my dose of horror. And then
with a swipe of my finger, I'm on Spotify and
it's the same screen, and it's the same speakers, and
it's the same thing I'm touching right and now here's

(01:02:36):
Beethoven's Ninth Symphony coming out of it, or here's a
brand new record by you know, the most interesting new
band on earth.

Speaker 5 (01:02:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:02:43):
I always love English radio because they're so big on,
you know, breaking new bands and stuff. So then I
find myself over on BBC. So even then you just
have total monkey mind with everything. Oh and don't forget
our podcast, because that's the only other tome I can
concentrate long car ride or something where I'm not interrupted,
you know, by checking Twitter, checking Blue Sky, whatever the
heck is going on.

Speaker 1 (01:03:03):
I don't mean to spring a big question on you,
but just I'm curious, after many years, many formats, many
many records, if you have any theories as to like
what the music industry's problem is, what's the major malfunction
or what do you wish were different?

Speaker 4 (01:03:23):
If I had my time machine and I went backwards.
When things really went south was when all the major
labels started buying each other because everybody was doing crappy
probably because they were putting crappy records out or too many.
But then when everybody just started eating each other. I
haven't counted lately.

Speaker 3 (01:03:39):
But I don't know how many major labels are.

Speaker 4 (01:03:41):
Left, like Sony, Scandalong three and a half, Warner Mister
Oligark that owns Warner Brothers, and then the whole Innerscope
Giant things. So is there are only three major labels.
I mean, it's crazy. They just start gobbling each other
up and then it was just like, you know, we
were just pulled along by our leash, you know, after that,
but you know this, you know, they couldn't keep up

(01:04:01):
with it.

Speaker 3 (01:04:01):
But that really shook out like everybody that was just.

Speaker 4 (01:04:04):
Hanging on like A and M, you know, all the
people that were major labels but smaller ones, and it's
just been collapsing on itself ever since then. With you know,
whatever the big guys say that you're going to do
is what you have to do. Even changing the street
date to Friday, you know, at the end of the day,
it didn't really make any difference, but everybody lost their minds.

Speaker 3 (01:04:22):
No, it has to be Tuesday.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
Yeah, it was always Tuesday. And then one week I
woke up and it was Friday, and no one even
said why.

Speaker 3 (01:04:29):
I still can't get used to it. I still say Tuesday.

Speaker 4 (01:04:31):
You know, when I look at the grids for our book,
when things are coming out at ILD, I'll.

Speaker 3 (01:04:35):
Be like Friday. Oh it's been that way for years,
you know, but I just can't get over it. Why.

Speaker 4 (01:04:41):
But there was some reason, and that's what happened. But
they also took over record Storday, they took over college radio.
You know, they're like, oh shit, we need this stuff
to break our bands.

Speaker 3 (01:04:52):
You know, when we signed.

Speaker 4 (01:04:53):
These cool indie bands, they need to play our records
and not your records.

Speaker 1 (01:04:57):
And it's the same. I mean, I'm I So what
happens in the States with clear Channel, and here in
Canada all the cool alt rock radio stations that sprung
up in the eighties consolidated, and then the consolidated company
hired consultants to come in and normalize everything and make
it more optimized and efficient, and.

Speaker 4 (01:05:15):
Then you fire all the DJs and you just play
a kart with all their whatever format or whatever the
hell it is.

Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
I got to go visit k Rock. I was in
LA like a decade ago, and there was a guy
showing us around. He's really friendly and nice, and there
was a DJ in one room. He said, Oh, what
that guy's doing is recording like generic hits for a
Jack FM, which.

Speaker 3 (01:05:34):
Is just another thing, another station.

Speaker 1 (01:05:36):
They're paying this guy to come in and like hammer
nails into his own coffin.

Speaker 3 (01:05:40):
And they're like, yeah, what give up show business? No way.

Speaker 4 (01:05:43):
But you know, when I grew up in the sixties,
you heard Bobby Gentry and you heard Charlie Rich and
you heard the beat, you know everything. It was just
music and nobody. And then some wizard decided that radio
all got segregated into you know, nobody that likes rock
music wants to listen to country and then so that
was the end of that. It was just like one
stupid choice. But now it's just literally probably I don't

(01:06:06):
even know how lons of majors hedge funds. You know,
Len Blobotnik, who's a Russian, Ola Garakon's Warner Brothers. Where's
Neil Young say something?

Speaker 1 (01:06:14):
Well, and all these old musicians are busily selling their
entire publishing catalogs in.

Speaker 4 (01:06:18):
Their whole catalog because now that Spotify's the format. There's
just no money in the music business. You sell T
shirts and junk and onesies and mouse pats.

Speaker 3 (01:06:28):
People don't use mouse pads, I guess.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
But but more garbage to yeah, to wind up in
the Pacific Ocean in five years.

Speaker 4 (01:06:33):
Like when I saw the Stones, it's so far. They
had like semis full of all the crap they carried.
Like it wasn't T shirts. It was just like, oh,
this crap and You're like wow, So that's where it's
at records, you know, it's like they kind of give
it away if you buy something like here's the MP
threes or.

Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
I mean, this has never maybe been a more loaded question.
But speaking in terms of the music industry, and maybe
not the music industry, but in terms of music, where
do you find hope?

Speaker 4 (01:07:00):
In my mind, there's still tons of great bands worldwide
all the you know, and then there's tons of stuff
I'd never caught up with. I didn't realize Monochrome said
had been a band ever since I liked them in
the seventies. So I'm catching up with Monochrome set records.
But in LA there's just billions of good bands. I
see them all the time, and they don't even need
a label, you know what I mean, if you could
make a record just put on band camp. I tell

(01:07:22):
people like, I don't have a staff anymore, so unless
it's like Goodwill for Frontier that look at the back
and they're like, oh cool, Like there's nothing they can't
do on their own.

Speaker 1 (01:07:30):
Really, at this point, I remember, I have this really
vivid recollection from like, you know, just a page of
a book I had when I was a little kid
about the dinosaurs going extinct. And I'm sorry if this
is not a flattering comparison for indies, but it had.
You know, there's all the big dinosaurs and the megafauna
and the big plants and everything are dying in the
ash cloud from the asteroid. And then in the front

(01:07:50):
of the picture there's just like this little vole that's
safe underground, and you know, the bugs and the rodents
survived the extinction of the dinosaurs. I'm wondering if I'm hoping,
actually maybe I'm just hoping that you can reassure me
of my fervent desire that as the big labels continue
to eat each other and then get eaten by Spotify,

(01:08:12):
and then get eaten by you know, the mega corporations,
et cetera, et cetera, that the small labels, that labels
like Frontier who have just been putting out good music
sustainably for decades. As everything else crashes into each other
and creates whatever it's going to create, that there'll be
something real and human that's been carried through all the way.
I'm sort of below anyone's notice. Do you think that

(01:08:33):
there's a hope for that?

Speaker 3 (01:08:35):
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:08:36):
The people that are left behind, you know, Discord still
here and I'm still here.

Speaker 3 (01:08:40):
I can't.

Speaker 4 (01:08:41):
I can't cut back anymore. I'm still in my house.
I have you know, my label manager works here two
days a week. I could use your five, but you know,
there it is. So you know, I'll keep pressing this stuff.
I'm not selling it out to anybody or you know,
going that's it.

Speaker 3 (01:08:56):
You know, I don't know what the.

Speaker 4 (01:08:56):
Next format horror is, but you know, I can't imagine
at this point what am I going to do?

Speaker 3 (01:09:01):
You know what job?

Speaker 4 (01:09:02):
I'm going to go back to a record store. I
even go to my friend Bob at Freakbeatstolet. I'll be like,
I'll work at the counter, just so I can yell
at people, and you're like, no, you're not going to
be anywhere near nice people that have a nice question
for you, And I'll be like, I'll tell them to
leave there, but anyway, So you just don't want me
to be around the working public at all. But I'm
putting out. You know, we found extra demos that the

(01:09:25):
Flyboys made, so I'm going to reissue that record with
some extra stuff, working on a couple of reissues. They
can't talk about that. Other people couldn't swing the deal,
and I found somebody in the.

Speaker 3 (01:09:35):
Band, so I'm not giving up yet.

Speaker 1 (01:09:38):
Thank God. What's it like looking back? You know, this
is you started when punk was pretty new, and now
punk is an institution and there's there's reissues. I was
speaking of records. I was at a record planted and
they were everything was on hold while they pressed a
zillion copies of the American Idiot twentieth Anniversary Edition or whatever.
It's so interesting to me that you were there from

(01:09:59):
like the almost the birth of this genre.

Speaker 4 (01:10:02):
But even before that, I was going, you know what
I mean, like Bowie and stuff like I Love mat
the Hoople and all that crap. Before I even thought
I would ever put out a record. I still didn't
know what I was going to do, but I saw
that before happens, all the Ramones, Patti Smith, all that
stuff morph into the local scene and all that.

Speaker 1 (01:10:19):
And all the while, as you were saying, you were
you didn't have a business plan, a five year plan.
You were moving, you were existing within the moment. And
now here you are with all of this history and
all of this legacy. What does that feel like to
look at it?

Speaker 4 (01:10:32):
Well, right now I'm doing a podcast. I'm supposed to
be writing a book. I've had a book deal for
I don't know about a year and a half. I
haven't started because I tell this poor kid named Mary,
I'll be like, I'm working on it. But I am
working on it up Pier. And it does help me
to remember stuff, because I forgot completely that I had
done that little thing for Island Records where I'm in
a record store pontificating about you know, Paisley Underground. You know,

(01:10:55):
I just need to put it together. And then, because
there's still all kinds of stuff you and I left
out and just ridiculous things.

Speaker 1 (01:11:02):
I feel like we keep talking. All right, Let's keep
this go another three hours. Who needs a book?

Speaker 5 (01:11:06):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:11:06):
Who needs a book?

Speaker 4 (01:11:07):
I was just gonna say, like major label people that
never gave me the time of day. I would barely
say hi to me in public. My ex used to
demand it. Well, he does manage Nirvana, but before they
were signed, so I would get calls on my home
line from every single major label like you put a
good word for me. I'm like, fuck, no, I'm going
to put a good word for you. Where'd you get
my number?

Speaker 3 (01:11:27):
Anyway?

Speaker 4 (01:11:27):
Lose it and things like that. So again I did
not do myself any favors. But same thing happened with Jawbreaker.
It's just awful, just the most horrible in our guys
that even they would laugh out of their room, like
suddenly found my phone number and you know, like hook
me up. No, that was always me. So did I
help myself over the years, Not that much, not.

Speaker 1 (01:11:50):
Really, But did you find that because that kind of
that kind of approach, you know, the glad handing, flesh
pressing people, pleasing approach can pay dividends on the short term, right,
you can get someone smiling in a room, you can
get some what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (01:12:04):
Two free tickets to a show or something.

Speaker 1 (01:12:07):
I myself have scored tickets using just that kind of skullduggery.

Speaker 4 (01:12:11):
But over time myself though, if I told somebody that
that guy was a cool guy, how could I you know, like,
why did you tell this that guy was a good guy?
I would like ruin my whole whatever cred I had
with those people, you know, so not happening.

Speaker 1 (01:12:24):
Much like taste, I guess, like credibility and integrity are ineffable.
They mean different things to different people. I'm sure there's
plenty of an R folks who you have just alluded
to talking about who would could look in the mirror
and say to themselves that they behaved with integrity and
authenticity from day one, and who truly believe it.

Speaker 3 (01:12:46):
As they say.

Speaker 4 (01:12:46):
Real estate now, like almost everybody that I know that
worked at a major label is now in the real
estate gig.

Speaker 1 (01:12:52):
I know a lot of former band people who are
in the real estate gig as well. There's jobs.

Speaker 3 (01:12:55):
Yeah, it's super funny when I see somebody's name a big.

Speaker 1 (01:12:57):
I know that guy, radio guy, and he's not going
to give you a deal on a house, So really,
what's that relationship with I've.

Speaker 4 (01:13:03):
Got one, so I'm good don't need to. And it's interesting.
You know, I'd still use Facebook for old people and everything,
but it's just interesting. Everybody has different careers. Are they
just gave up or something like that, but they're certainly
not in the music.

Speaker 3 (01:13:16):
Business, and you are. Yeah, here I.

Speaker 1 (01:13:19):
Am, and so I think your approach obviously has something
to it.

Speaker 4 (01:13:23):
Yeah, if you don't care about taking over the world
or being a household name or something. You know, money
always has strings attached to it. Don't have to tell
you that. But you know, if you get an investor,
you have a major label deal, probably going to buy
your label and just kick you out and cherry pick
their records, get rid of the rest of them, keep
them out of print. So didn't have to worry about it,
didn't didn't have the money, but didn't have to worry

(01:13:44):
about selling out.

Speaker 1 (01:13:46):
In a lot of ways, that seems to me to
be more and more of the most desirable place you
can be. You know, it's I would love to have
a house. That would be nice. It would be nice
if I had a house that I could live in
that I owned with money. But I have my soul.

Speaker 3 (01:13:59):
You have a student.

Speaker 1 (01:14:00):
Look at that looks I have a studio. I've got
records of plenty. My plants are doing pretty good. You know,
it's all right, that.

Speaker 3 (01:14:07):
Could be worse, you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:14:08):
It's like being riches and all it's cracked up to.

Speaker 1 (01:14:10):
Be a man. Well, what a story, what a talk. Genuinely,
as someone who loves music and loves bands, thank you
for fighting the good fight all these years. I really
think it's meaningful and that it matters that there's people
out there doing it the way that you've been doing
it and not joining the megazord because everyone joins the

(01:14:31):
machine and I've joined the machine too, and I get
why people do it, But.

Speaker 4 (01:14:34):
Wouldn't it be pretty great for a couple of years
and not lose your soul on your credibility.

Speaker 3 (01:14:39):
But how many people did that? Really? How many people
can really hard from selling out? Pretty hard?

Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
Yep, And so genuinely, thank you, it matters. It was great.
I have one more question to ask you. We always
save this question till last because we considered it to
be the most important. Usually the question is while you
were recording the album in question, what did you eat
for you? I'll just ask what was fueling the early
days of Frontier when you were driving the records around

(01:15:07):
warehousing the records. What was your go to meal?

Speaker 4 (01:15:11):
I would say, if I could drive through it, then
that would be something that I could do because I
was always going from one place to the other, and
you know, it wasn't excellent. It was probably jack in
the box. It can't always be.

Speaker 3 (01:15:24):
In an outburner, so.

Speaker 4 (01:15:26):
Sometimes it's just like the worst thing you can get
just because it's fuel and always late to work at
Vinyl Fetish. I was talking to Kidkongo about that dropping names.
We're like, I don't even remember. It was just a blur.
It was just a blur.

Speaker 2 (01:15:39):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:15:39):
We'd get super drunk the night before open the store
in the morning. You know, I barely remember it except
that it was a blast.

Speaker 1 (01:15:46):
Another thing about rock and roll is that there's so
much youth in it. I remember, though, I remember my
version of those days, and like, you know, when you're
working sixteen hours a day doing all this stuff, or
when you're on tour and you're driving ten hours a
day and then show the common denominator of all of
it is like, oh, yeah, right, it's because I was
twenty two and nothing could harm me exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:16:06):
You weren't trying to get your vegetable course in. You're
just trying to, you know, not faint.

Speaker 1 (01:16:12):
Well. Anyway, from one less youthful than I used to
be rock and roll lover to another, it's great that
you're still out there doing it. It's inspiring. Thanks for
the talk, Thanks for the music.

Speaker 4 (01:16:23):
Oh absolutely, And next time you're at the Rainbow, I'm
paying deal.

Speaker 1 (01:16:27):
Yeah, next time I'm in La, I'll look you up
for sure. I'd love to. All right, thanks Lisa. See yeah,
Lisa Fancher, founder of Frontier Records. That was so much fun.
You know, a few years back a friend of mine
was thinking about going in and buying a bar. His

(01:16:47):
favorite bar in his neighborhood was up for sale, and
him and some friends thought, oh my god, will buy
the bar. This is brilliant. It's beautiful. All our friends
can come hang out. We get to choose the music,
we get to choose the vibes. Are beloved local will
be literally our bar. So one night that friend and
I were out at my beloved local and the owner
of that bar was there. So my friend was excitedly

(01:17:09):
telling her all about his big plans for this bar,
and she looked dead in the eye, and she said,
do not do this, and then she went on this
whole spiel about how essentially running a bar doing the
thing that she does for her living, is a nightmare
that never ends. So my friend did not end up
buying that bar, but my local is still there, still

(01:17:32):
run by the same person, and I'm just so grateful
that there are people willing to push through the nightmare
to keep a good bar going, because we need good bars,
and you know what, we maybe need good record labels too.
We at least need good music, and Lisa Fancher and
Frontier Records have brought so much good music to so
many ears. So kudos to Lisa for keeping a good

(01:17:55):
label going all these years and still Frontier Records. Bandcamp
dot com is probably the best place to go to
delve into the deep and very impressive catalog that Lisa
has put together, and after talking to her, I really
feel great about recommending anything they've put out, which is
really the best case or a record label that you

(01:18:15):
can trust it. So yeah, a salute to Lisa Fanscher
for her work, for dedication and her taste, and I
suppose for coming on the show because it was just
a joy, a pleasure and as usual, a real education
to get to talk to her, and hey, thank you
for listening. Major Label Debut is produced by John Paul

(01:18:36):
Bullock and Josh Hook. Our music is by Greg Alsop.
We're on the Internet if you can believe it. We've
got social media and all the stuff. Look up Major
Label Debut Podcast on whatever app you're on and you'll
probably find us. And if we're not there, maybe it's
not worth being on it. We'd love to hear from
you about the podcast or about any old thing. Reach
out to us via any of the mediums. There's dms,

(01:18:58):
there's that just don't DM me personally on Instagram because
it goes into some folder that I'd never remember to
look at. But anything else is spare game. That's it.
That's it for the podcast this week, but Major Label
Debut will return with more tales from the intersection of
art and commerce.

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