May 7, 2025 • 47 mins
Let's talk about breaking the scarcity mindset, healing from financial trauma, and mentoring others.
Paula McMillan-Perez is a school social work consultant & psychotherapist. She is the host of the Why Don't We Talk About This podcast.
Follow Marci Talks Money (and Life) wherever you get your podcasts to get the episodes as they post.
Visit MoneyMarci.com to check out other financial literacy resources.
Paula McMillan-Perez is a school social work consultant & psychotherapist. She is the host of the Why Don't We Talk About This podcast.
Follow Marci Talks Money (and Life) wherever you get your podcasts to get the episodes as they post.
Visit MoneyMarci.com to check out other financial literacy resources.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Powered by Riverside at Them.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
This is another episode of Marcie Talks Money and Life
with Money Marcy and that's me and I have been
privileged to meet wonderful people via my social media presence
and guesting on podcasts, and I am thrilled to be
able to introduce you to them. Today's guest, Paula McMillan Perez,
is a licensed clinical social worker, psychotherapist, social systems and
(00:30):
workflow strategists, and host of the why Don't We Talk
About This? Podcast. Paula is a talented therapist and coach
that works with people to improve their work life balance,
create joy in their lives while working to get past
a scarcity mindset and financial trauma. She is also a
great conversationalist and I am excited to be able to
(00:51):
share her with you. And here she is, Paula.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Hey, Hey, and thanks for the intro. Like I may
have to, you know, revise my own bio because while
I definitely do work with folks on financial trauma and
scarcity mindset, that's just been like the last couple of years,
because I do a lot of work around anxiety and ADHD.
But surprise, surprise, folks that have those two things struggle
(01:19):
with their finances and may or may not have had
some significant financial trauma. So I think, you know, highlighting
all of those things, you know, in my new revised
bio thanks to money, Marcy would be hopeful. So thank
you for the push in the right direction.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Well, you know, I got to do my research before
I have you, so truth be told. I have guested
on Paula's podcast twice now I think yes with always
plans to do more because I just love talking to her,
and I love talking to social workers because social workers
get people who have anxiety, who have issues and whatever else.
(01:55):
And so often in life we have issues around money,
and when you're having issues with your partner, it's not
uncommon that there is a money component to the issues.
And so I just love talking to people where we
can integrate different areas. I don't just want to talk
to financial people, though I do, because they have other
(02:18):
information than I do. But people who who express themselves
into the world differently and are aware that finance is
a part of so many of the other things. So
you know, let's see where we go.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Paula, I'm with it. Well, one thing I do want
to make sure that I kind of talk about, especially
because I also used it earlier. This Weekend Sessions was
during the last time that you came on my podcast,
you shared the launch of your app, and I have
to say that, even though like I previewed it like
before our episode, I find that I use it more
(02:56):
than some of my other resources now because the question
that you were able to put together, like they touch anybody,
no matter like your race, your religion, your culture, your background.
Money is something that impacts all of us, whether we
have it, whether we don''t have it, where we want it,
we dream about it. And the way that you kind
of like frame your questions is really just like straight
(03:20):
to the point, but there's like no shame involved. It's like, hey,
let's like reflect on this, like is this something that
you ever thought about before? And I always kind of
test out new things with my husband, like he's my
guinea pig, so it was like I don't do anything
with my clients or like any activity that I haven't
like tried out, So I don't want it to be like, oh, well,
(03:40):
like you don't know what this is, Like yeah, I
kind of do because I was my own guinea pig,
and I will admit that like sometimes I was just
like damn, like, this is what it feels like to
be on the other side of it. And I don't
know very many people in their professional practices that just
come out with a re source just to increase conversation. Yes,
(04:02):
the knowledge piece comes and you know, we may have
to identify like other resources, or we may do additional research.
We hopefully may get a financial planner, account and bookkeep
or something. But it increases the conversation around financial literacy,
even if that specific language isn't used. And I just
kind of wanted to highlight that before I forgot.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Thank you so much. And for those of you who
aren't aware, I have an app available on Android. You
can just go to the play store. It's called Let's
Talk About Money, and you'll see my little icon there
and it's conversation starters. So it's questions for you to
talk to your family about. It doesn't have the answers
because so many of these questions aren't a black and
(04:46):
white answer. They're not an answer for me to tell
you what is right for you and your family. It's
for the two of you to talk, or the four
of you, or whatever your situation. Is to talk so
you can determine what's the right thing for you. So
please feel free to check it out. As I said,
it's in the Android Store. You can use it on
chromebooks if you are someone who is educated on your
(05:07):
Apple stuff. There is programs you can run so that
you can run it on an Apple device, but it
is not currently available in the Apple Store. So so
thank you for mentioning that, Paula. I'm so glad that
you're liking it and using it and seeing what I intended.
So that makes me feel good that I did it.
I did it right.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yay, Yes you did. And I tell people about it
all the time, Like I have a few social work
friends who have gotten like their financial social Work certification,
even like a few like financial advisors that I'm like, hey,
like here's this app that I'm using. Here are some
resources that Marcy has, Like, I think that the informational
(05:48):
piece that kind of takes away a lot of the
shame and stigma surrounding people's feelings about it can kind of,
you know, reduce it just enough that you can open
the mind. And I think that once you open the door,
open the mind, open the door, it creates an opportunity
to just be like, okay, like am I ready to
have this conversation? Maybe not, but maybe if I answer
(06:09):
one of these questions, it'll kind of like give me
a little clue or maybe activate something in me to
figure out, like why does this feel so hard? Like
why why have I not talked about this? Or like
is this something I talked about with my family? Is
this something that I know? Am I completely scared and overwhelmed?
And it has also helped me kind of uncover a
few things with clients in a more conversational style, because
(06:30):
even though you know I am clinically trained and you
know a few different modalities, people just need to talk.
Like we don't need to utilize you know, the psych
and the social work terms, like we just need to
like talk. So I just I just wanted to highlight that.
And I know some of y'all listening are like Donald,
they plan this, like it really didn't Like I wanted.
I wanted to be able to highlight this because I've
been telling people in real life and now I'm telling
(06:51):
people in the podcast.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
And oh and I did not plan on this first
bit being a commercial for me. I do appreciate it
but let's talk about what you do in your work
and how you feel money relates in various ways, or
how you came to be working so much in money
from a social work standpoint.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Well, that's gonna be the whole episode. But I'll do
my best so.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
I can always invite you back. I know the boss.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
I'm down all right, you have an end, so I'm
with that. So I I'm trying to think of where
to begin. So I started, well, I graduated in twenty
eleven with my master's in social work, but I was
working in social services prior, so even when I came
out of undergrad, I was in the field. And I
(07:44):
purposefully went to a generalist practice program, which basically means
it's just general. It gives you like a broad education
on all things social work, as opposed to some social
work program where you have to choose a concentration. And
they can look different, but usually the main ones are
(08:04):
like clinical policy or end or administration advocacy. Sometimes there's
like a little school social work. Sometimes there's substance abuse,
so but certain programs are structured differently. But I felt,
even though social work is such a beautiful field, because
it is so broad and you can touch on different areas.
I wasn't sure at the time like the direction I
(08:24):
wanted to go, So I didn't feel like I would
have been I don't want to say successful, but I
didn't feel like it would have been me like I
would have been an accurate representation of my educational experience
to choose a concentration. So I purposefully chose a generalist
practice school. And one of the things that I learned
kind of in that journey is that I have more
(08:47):
than one interest. And the beauty of the field because
it is so broad, is that you don't necessarily have
to specialize in one thing. But you know, there is
benefit in niching down, which is, you know, one of
the buzzwords of like the last decade. But for the
most part, I was trauma trained. And part of the
reason for that is because I work with historically marginalized communities.
(09:07):
I worked with populations that were mandated to attend certain services.
So if let's say, for the sake of argument, maybe
they were incarcerated, or they were in an alternative to
incarceration program, or you know, they got caught up in
some things outside and it was like, well, you either
do this, or you're going back in or maybe they
(09:29):
were in a residential program because you know, they were
in transition, or in recovery, or you know, any number
of things. And part of one of the things that
I noticed in the scope of that work was that
usually some of these clients HEU didn't have a lot
of access, whether that was due to growing up in poverty,
(09:52):
whether that was due to a lack of just accessibility
to supports and services, whether that was appropriate education, appropriate literacy.
And we know that financial literacy, unfortunately isn't something that
is a main focus in school. But even some of
these populations I worked with, they didn't get very far
(10:13):
in school for a variety of different reasons, so that
also limited access. But as a result of it, like
we talked about money, but from the lens of I
need to get it, like I need it, like this
is how to take care of my family, or this
is how I stopped myself from homelessness, or you know,
so many other themes. And I think that even though
(10:35):
I knew it was like an area I kind of
wanted to tackle, I wasn't necessarily sure how to go
about it. And for me, I was one of those
young kids that learned the hard way when kind of
segueing real quick. When I was in college, I was
one of those students that fell into you know, those
predatory traps for freshmen where like you know, you just
(10:56):
got on campus and you're getting like, you know, your
posters for you room, and it's like, hey, get a
free toe bag or a T shirt or a radio
if you sign up for this credit card. I knew
information about credit, like overall, like, based on information, my
mom has excellent credit. Like all my friends are like,
we want your mama's credit score. Like that was always
(11:17):
something that you know, we all aspire to. So I
was like, but I got this, and I did for
a little while, and then I did it because as
a broke college student, it's like yeah, because you know,
I'm going to work in the summer or I'm going
to use my work study money. And it went left.
And I was very fortunate, not just fortunate, privileged even
that you know, my mom bailed me out of that
(11:39):
situation and she was like, listen, this is it like
if you make you know, these decisions moving forward, like
I'm not going to get you out of this, whereas
many people do not have that level of support to
do that, and I utilize that example because it's a
predatory is because a lot of people don't know how
(12:01):
credit works, and they get caught up in a situation
that they can't get themselves out of because they don't
understand how interest works, the difference between daily interest, the
difference between the annual percentage rate, how finance charges work,
and it's a lot of jargon. Plus there's the tiny
teeny any bad legalese at the bottom that no eighteen
(12:22):
year old is trying to read. So for a lot
of you know, the work that I have done over
the last several years comes from the place that sometimes
we just weren't taught. I was fortunate that I was,
but I also had, you know, the stubborn streak, and
you know, I got this and you know I could
figure it out that put me in a situation I
(12:42):
didn't want to be in, which is a story that
I do share with clients because that's just one lens
or one lane. But the thing about it is that
we're not, like I mentioned before, we're not really taught.
So there's a lot of shame and stigma surrounding money
man management. Surrounding poverty. There has been discussion around oh,
(13:05):
like you know, people just need to get organized or
get on a budget and they can get themselves out
of anything. You can't wish your way out of poverty.
You can't like it would be great because if that
were the case, we wouldn't have so many impoverished communities
over and it's not even nationally internationally, and it's not
just communities of color. I know people who identify as white,
(13:27):
people who identify as Asian who either grew up in
or for one reason or another, live in poverty. And
some of us we are one paycheck away from being
in poverty. Because I don't even know the statistics, so
I don't want to butcher it, but many Americans are
living paycheck to paycheck, and if unemployment becomes a significant concern,
(13:51):
there's going to be a whole host of additional significant concerns.
So because I work in mental health and I know
that there has been great stigma well around reaching out
for support, regardless to whether you have a mental health
diagnosis or you're just going through it. Because the life
is lifing, many people have something, whether it's a significant
(14:11):
financial trauma, and that could be that they grew up
in poverty. That could be that they are underemployed, under insured,
under resourced, underfunded. So you see where I'm going here
with the under and I think that a piece of
that just adds on to the weight of the shame
that people are carrying because like, I can't wish myself
(14:34):
out of it. I can get a second job, but
then I burn out. That impacts my health. I don't
have the time or the resources to kind of take
a day off because maybe I don't have PTO, maybe
I don't have childcare to go to the doctor. Maybe
I'm under insured, or maybe I have insurance that's great,
but it doesn't have a decent prescription plan and I
can't afford my medication. Right.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
What people don't realize is even the people in the
best neighborhoods or with high paying jobs are living paycheck
to paycheck. That this isn't just for people that have
low income. There are there are people that have high income.
There are people that came from from privilege through their parents, whatever,
(15:17):
and you know their their job that they have doesn't
earn as much as their parents earned, let's say, or
they live a more expensive lifestyle and certainly more expensive
than they can afford. That they haven't generated the savings
the emergency. They figure if they pay their credit card
(15:37):
monthly monthly minimum, that they're doing okay, and they budget
for well, as long as I can make the minimum
I can, I can keep going. So it's it's scarier
that the lack of education. You know, people who have
money want to learn about it, and they're the ones
who can afford to make the mistakes. And it's the
(15:59):
people who who don't have money or who are living
those tight budgets that really need to make the effort
to learn because they are that one bad choice, whether
there's or someone else's, away from flipping into poverty.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Yeah, and then if you think about and I've lived
in New York City my entire life, so even though
I've visited several different states, you know, there are things
that when you grow up in a larger metropolitan area
that they don't necessarily resonate with you, in contrast to
people that may live in smaller town smaller communities that
(16:40):
also play a role. So a situation that comes to
mind is, you know, New York's popular for bordegas or
corner stores, and yes, you can get a lot of
your basic needs groceries and things that are really random,
and you're like, why is this even in here in
a bodega, But the markup is very signific But you're
(17:00):
paying for the convenience of the fact that you didn't
have to cross the street. You just have to walk
out of your building or work out of your house
and walk to the corner or the middle of the
block or whatever have you to get what you need. Now,
if you are on a fixed income and let's say
you need to buy your basics bread, milk, cheese, eggs,
things of that nature, you can get all of those items.
(17:21):
But if you go to the grocery store that's maybe five, six,
seven blocks away, you might be able to save money
and get it cheaper. Or if you live near let's
say a target, Target sometimes is even cheaper than going
to the grocery store. But then there's the accessibility piece.
And in New York you can take a bus, you
can take a train, A lot of us walk, but
(17:42):
what if you live in a rural county in Florida
and you don't have a car and the only store
that you have accessible to you is like right outside
of your development or your complex. You have to get
what you need because that's your only option. So we
don't talk a lot about the relationship between our finances
(18:02):
and accessibility because sometimes we don't have access. Sometimes it
is the privilege. And these are also uncomfortable conversations to
have because that also means that we have to admit
we don't know something, we don't have something, we don't
have access to something, and then that makes us feel
that shame, that guilt, a lot of these negative emotions
that we're already fighting against because again, life be lifing
(18:27):
and we are constantly in survival mode. And when people
are like, oh, but people say we're in survival mode
all the time. The way I break that down is
it's really easy for us as people to be negative.
Nobody knows why. So it's like, damn, I messed up.
I stub my toe against the bed again. Oh I'm
such an idiot? Or I you know, burnt subscrambled eggs,
(18:50):
like this is easy, like a baby could do this,
Like what's wrong with me? It comes out very easy,
it's very casual, and people are like, I don't I
don't underst and why it's just something I've always done.
And part of the reason for that is because it
speaks to that survival mode. Now, even if we don't
and everybody has trauma, there's big T trauma, little T trauma,
but everybody has trauma. But the reason I bring this
(19:13):
up is because we've had so much transpire in our lives,
we don't realize how hypervigilant, how aware we are that
something is gonna go wrong or badly because we're always
prepared for it. Because that is a survival instinct that
we have had. It's literally in our DNA, like it
has been passed down no matter how affluent or whatever,
(19:34):
or you know, good stock or breeding that we came from.
It's at one of our basic things that we need
to survive because as people, as human beings, our major
goal is to reproduce to be able to keep the
species alive. So we have to have our heads at
a swivel to make sure that we're maintaining our safety.
So because of that, all of that, all that language
(19:57):
translates into that, but we don't necessary realize. Oh, we
have to put time and effort and energy into switching
that mindset and changing it into something more positive as
opposed to leaving it fixed in the negative because it's
usually negative. So that takes retraining and rewiring of our brains.
And if we have a lot of little tea traumas
(20:17):
or a lot of big t traumas, we have to
do even more work because trauma does rewire the brain.
So if we have financial trauma, because let's say maybe
grandma got her car repode and she couldn't get to work,
and she lost her home and she had to move
in with her sister, and then we were all doubled
up in this apartment and then it was maybe three
(20:39):
generations living in there, and we had to share clothes
and all of these things. Then sometimes the scarcity mindset
slips in because we kind of had to make do
what we had. We had to Jimmy rig Giggs, and
we had to kind of get creative and get it together,
and that's how we came up. So that's the default.
So even if we're doing a little bit better or
(21:00):
we're in a space where we feel like we have
a little bit more flexibility, there comes some shame at times,
especially when these individuals are like, oh, remember how hard
we have it. You can't be wasteful. You can't blow
your extra salary or your bonus ooh, you're going out
to dinner. That's a piece of it. And then if
you come from an immigrant community where your family, whether
it's your parents, your siblings, immigrated from another country and
(21:23):
they had limited resources, there's a lot of similarities there
as well. That's also a source of financial trauma that
we don't really talk about. So when we hear first
gen second gen kids are doing things like there's a
lot of internal work that they have to do when
they surpass some of the expectations of their parents, which
(21:44):
they wanted because that's why they came to this country.
But there's a lot of undoing too, and their money
story gets caught up in that.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
So how do we break some of these cycles and
how do we reach these people that I mean, let's
face it, if you're struggling to day, you're not going
to an accountant. If you file your tax return at all,
you are going to one of those free sites you're
doing whatever have access. Some libraries have free tax filers,
(22:12):
preparers there, or whatever else. But you're getting whoever you're getting.
When I was in college, I volunteered with volunteer income
tax assistants, so I would help these people prepare their
tax returns. At that point in time back in the
Stone Age, this was manual on pay per forms, and
they would see me one year and then I'd graduate
and they'd see someone else. So they didn't get any
(22:34):
continuity of financial care, any continuity of financial education. They
basically got their tax return prepared and hopefully a refund
off of it. But there was no opportunity for them to,
whether through education or through coaching or for whatever, to
break that cycle.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yeah, it turned into oh, this is thing I have
to do because you know, the government needs their money,
so like I have to do my taxes. And it
gets challenging too because even with the window of time.
So I believe there's some stipulation in Marci, this is
(23:16):
your you're closer to your wheel house, so please correct
me if I'm wrong. There's some stipulation that W two's
and ten ninety nine's and those forms need to be
sent out by a certain time.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Well that's by the company that is, so they need
to be sent out by the end of January, so
you should have yours theoretically by the beginning of February,
and now that more of them are distributing them online. Obviously,
at the time they send it, you virtually have it
in your email box or the link to it with
you use your code, But you still have to prepare
(23:47):
the tax return to get your refund, and if you
are unhoused, and then where do these forms go if
they don't go online? And I imagine that there are
people out there who don't have some art phones, who
don't have access to continual email, that don't have access
to to those things. So the question is how how
(24:08):
do we help them break the cycle? Because they don't
want to be on welfare, they don't want to be
on social assistance. They would like to get to a
point where they have a more stable life for themselves.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
You know.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
And they're thinking, Okay, well, i'll learn about money later
on when I have some, Yes, And if you don't
learn about it, getting some is going to You can't
learn how to swim after you get out of the water.
You have to you have to learn before the boat sinks.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
No, absolutely, And part of the reason that I even
brought that piece up is because like that brings up
triggers for people, because it's like, Okay, I have to
wait either for this thing to come in the mail
or get it from work, or just like you said,
I may not have access to technology that's gonna enable
me to maybe access it faster. And then what do
(25:03):
I do? Because I may not know where to go.
I may not have the skills or the abilities to
even you know, navigate one of these free sites, or
have the technology to be able to do it. I
may ask a friend or a coworker, and then, because
I know it's something I need to get done, I
don't necessarily know where they're sending me is reputable, if
(25:24):
they're going to do a good job. I don't necessarily
know what questions to ask. I'm also at the mercy
of this person, and the hope is that they do
a good enough job for me to get a refund.
And then I have a lot of feelings about refunds
because I'm like, Okay, y'all already got a tax freeload
out of me, and I don't get no interest. But
that's a different story, and there's all of this surrounding that,
(25:49):
and that brings me to thinking of a client that
I worked with that she didn't fell taxes for like
six years, because as soon as the discussion of the
tax season came up, she begun to freeze, and she
called herself an ostrich. She would put her head in
the sand because like it was just too much to
deal with because she didn't have systems in place, and
(26:11):
we were able to identify that part of the reason
she didn't have systems in place was that she grew
up fearing what that meant, because that was something that
her parents were fearful of. Her father he was disabled,
so he was unable to work. So mom was holding
down the house with one income, two children, two adults,
and at one point three adults when Grandma came to
(26:33):
live and who was also on a fixed income, So
that that was a generational trauma that came up for her.
Around just taxes, that's just not even all of the
other financial things, because she was also divorced, had children.
You know, there are other themes that come up. So
one of the things that we talked about is just
like what are some of the things that you have heard,
(26:54):
at least heard from other people around money management, around
tax planning, around with like what are some of the
terms even if you don't know what they mean, because
a lot of times as people, we do not give
ourselves credit for what we actually know. We don't think
we know anything, or it's just like, oh, that's not
my wheelhouse. Like I'm not a CPA, I'm not a
(27:16):
tax professional accountant. But there are things that have been
floating around that you actually may know a little bit
more than you think. So, for example, she was somebody
in an old job had convinced her to sign up
for a four h one K, so she was having
money that was taken out of her check and she
didn't even remember where the information is. So it's never
(27:38):
something that she was able to kind of log in
and access and you know, utilize, you know, the or
look at the statements for So I said, we're gonna
leave that for right now, because like that's not one
of the priority areas she identified that she wanted to reach.
But one of the things that she identified, she's like,
you know what I'm paying for you know, my my
(27:58):
my child who's in SCO right now. I don't have
additional resources to be able to figure this out. And
I said, okay, YouTube University. Every time I say that
to people, they'd be like, oh my god, But the
reason that I bring that up is because if we
think about the resources that we do have access to.
And don't get me wrong, there are people on YouTube
that do not know what they're talking about. But let
(28:21):
us also kind of filter through what we have access
to to look at what the building blocks are. And
that's somebody that felt comfortable with technology. I've also worked
with somebody who was an older individual and though they
were trying to get the hang of it, didn't feel
like super confident in like navigating the laptop that they
were gifted. They would write down like all their questions
(28:42):
on a pad, or like things that came up over
the course of like the week or until like we met,
because they wanted to make sure that, you know, we
talked about these certain areas, so we identified some of
the questions that were coming up around Okay, I'm getting
closer to retirement, I don't know how this is gonna work.
Or a client who is graduating college and is completely
(29:04):
terrified of being in the real world because the only
job that they've ever really had was like in the summer,
and they didn't make enough money to have to file taxes.
So it's like, where do I go or I'm hearing
my friends have high yield savings accounts? What is that?
So it's just like we're hearing these terms, but we
don't necessarily know what they mean. So it's just like, Okay,
(29:26):
we can look them up, like you can google that.
Some of y'all still got dictionaries, We can look them up.
We can start with the basics because I look at
it and this is also how I describe it and
not just my therapeutic work, with my coaching work. Think
of it like Legos, even before all the Lego playsets that,
like you know, Star Wars and the flowers and the
(29:47):
retro things got really popular back in the day when
I was a kid, we had colors, and we had sizes,
and we had our imagination and we built. So we
just need one piece to build on. Keep going from there.
And what ends up happening is as you increase your
knowledge base, you also increase your confidence level, whether that's
(30:08):
to ask additional questions, identify additional resources, go to that
friend or colleague or coworker that you trust, maybe for
a recommendation, or just like how do we do this?
Not maybe not how I do this? Or how do
you do this, but like, how is this something that
gets done? And just to add on, I think something
else that we could also do a really good job
(30:29):
at for those of us who have people that feel
comfortable enough to talk about money, have like those conversations
like people had Mary Kay parties and Tupperware parties. Let's
just get together and be like, oh, man, Like I
got a checkbook and I was like, who writes checks anymore?
(30:53):
My friend was like, I do, because that's how I
pay my rent. And then my other friend was like, really,
because I just zell my landlord and I just make
sure that I put rent the month in the year.
I even put his whole name in it, just the
case so that there's no confusion, because him and his
wife and they were like what these weren't things that
some of the other people were even thinking about. Or
(31:16):
the fact that when you get a mortgage, you know
you can just have like it direct depositive to the
mortgage account like I have. I've been a homeowner for
a few years now. I didn't know that, like they
can take care of like my property taxes and my
homeowner's insurance all in that one payment. I thought I
had to pay like these different people. So I asked,
(31:38):
what are the ways that I get these things paid?
Because I didn't know my mom rented. So it's just like,
how do we begin to have conversations. Let's start with
the people, and hopefully we have at least one person
that we feel comfortable enough with to have just general
conversations and kind of like access what to they know,
(32:01):
because we're already in a place, in a space where
we feel like, oh, I could tell how about this
ridiculousness that's happened at work, or this fool that I,
you know, got together with from a dating site but
he ghost to me. But it's alright because he wasn't ready.
If we can talk about those things, we can kind
of talk about Man, I had this overdraft and that
wasn't cool. But I don't I don't know, okay, but oh,
(32:25):
have you tried this? Or oh, like, here's another alternative
to hear about what other people are doing, or even
if you don't want to put your own situation out there,
oh I saw this thing on the news or TMZ
or world's thoughts. I don't even know if people are
still looking at a world.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
Star, but like, you know, social media and kind of
like make it broad to hear like people's thoughts and
feelings about it with if you don't feel vulnerable enough
or safe enough in those spaces to kind of identify
your own personal situation because it gets the mind going
about what possibilities are.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
And it also helps you feel less alone because many times,
especially when it comes to finances, we feel like we're
doing it wrong, we're messing it up, We're not gonna
have any future, and it's just us. And the amount
of people that are struggling is a lot. Like I mentioned,
I'm a homeowner. I'm responsible for all of this, was
up the breaks. We're like and you know what, Sometimes
(33:22):
I'm like, well, I thought I was gonna buy new
tires for my car, but instead I might be buying
a new washing machine because mine is making like funny noises. Yeah,
so it's just like also like how we're looking at
the world and with that washing machine? Did I put
money aside for those tires and now I have to
use toward the washing machine? Am I going to use
(33:45):
a credit card? Am I going to use a store
card like a best buyer? Which I'm not because the
interest is ridiculous, But like, what are my options? Because
the sad reality of it is there's always options. Sometimes
there're too bad options. We have options. So I think
that those are some of the ways that we can
kind of get started, and I have I'm still holding
(34:07):
out hope and I will until my dying breath that
financial literacy will be something that is taught in schools
from since young and it's something that we can build
on the same way we build on English and math skills,
that these are skills that we can also build on
because knowledge is the way that we also set ourselves
free from some of these things, because we can create
other opportunities. But that's a hilliabile die on.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Well, I agree with you. I don't know how we
can teach it in schools from the beginning. You just
kind of integrate it into the math and that becomes
some of the story problems that you talk about have
more and more of them have a financial component, you know,
where you talk about not just he had five apples
(34:51):
and someone took three apples, and how many apples did
he have? And how many people could he make apple
sauce for and whatever else, but you have the financial
aspect of it. That's more than just doing the math
part of it, but understanding the bigger issue of it.
So you know, I think finding mentors and finding quality mentors,
(35:15):
especially for financial is hard because you know, yes, you
go to YouTube university, or you figure out who you
want to follow on TikTok or Instagram or whatever else,
and you don't know who they are. Now I hold
myself out as a CPA, well that's because I am
a CPA, but unless you look me up, you may
(35:37):
not know that I really am I unless someone reports
someone and says, well, this person is faking it. You
don't know what people are and what they say they are,
what's real and what's quality of that you have to make.
You have to make guesses based on how they present
themselves or who recommends them to you, or where they
(36:00):
that's coming through. So that's a little bit scary. One
thing I recommend to people is almost everybody, almost every adult,
has a bank account. Because you have to to cast
your paycheck to do whatever it is, you need a
bank account, even if it's always overdrawn. Your bank is
a great place to find a mentor of sorts. They
(36:22):
offer more services than you are aware of. They want
you to be successful, because if you're successful, you're going
to have more money, which means they will have more
of your money. So you know when you are looking
at what your opportunities might be, where you can ask
questions and where you can get information. A bank is
certainly a place to consider to see what they have,
(36:45):
to see what they offer. It's frustrating that we have
so much communication opportunity and yet there are so many
scammers out there. You don't know who's what and what
they are, and the fear of people knowing who you are.
So I do have periodically people will email me with
a question. I have a form on my website where
(37:05):
they could even put their question and I wouldn't know
who they are because I don't track who puts things
in the form, and then I answer those Some of
the time on my social media, as a question comes up,
I'll say, okay, I got this question, and I address it,
whether I know who the person is or not. I
don't typically share it unless someone says, hey, I want
(37:25):
you to use my name, which no one has ever done,
which is fine because if you have a question, a
lot more people have that question. You are not the
least aware person out there. You are not the only
person who doesn't know something, So ask the question you know.
(37:47):
We can go back to my app when you said
people you know don't want to talk about something as
it's personal. Well, if the question comes up on the
app and you're talking about the hypotheticals, they don't have
to know how hypothetical. Your situation is that that question
hit a nerve and you're talking from personal experience, you
can say, oh wow, if someone had XYZ happened to them.
(38:10):
So I think it's important to have those questions. You
might find out you have a mentor you didn't realize.
You might find out that you know the answer to
your friend's question and they know the answer to your question.
If you just figure out find a way to talk
about it, start a book discussion group and pull out
the financial literacy books you know they are available. Libraries
(38:34):
are still one of the best free resources we have
out there, and now with Hoopla and the other web services,
you don't even have to go to the library to
make use of their resources and to take the opportunity
to learn. The cycle is not going to break without
(38:54):
you putting in the effort. You can hire all the
social workers. You can hire all the the therapists and
all the accountants, but if you're not going to do
the work to create the change, it's not gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
No. I agree with that, and I think that sometimes
that is the scary part for folks realizing that, you know,
as busy as their lives are, or regardless of how
many hats that they wear in the places and spaces
that they have to show up. Recognizing that I have
to kind of carve out time to tackle this, or
(39:32):
not only do I need to carve out time, but
it needs to kind of be in like an ongoing
process can feel very daunting for people who are already
feeling overwhelmed. But one of the I guess questions or
prompts that I pose is that is absolutely true. You
do need to be in the place, in the space
and have the bandwidth. But imagine what it could be
(39:52):
like if this wasn't a thorn in your side, whether
it's every payday or quarterly or every tax season, imagine
what that could feel like. And then or I might
bust down my miracle question, which is, you know, every
social worker's dream to make manifest is if everything was
exactly the way that you wanted it to be with
(40:13):
your finances or with your taxes, or you had no
financial trauma or no scarcity mindset. What would that look like?
And how would you know? Some people love the question,
some people hate it, but it gets you thinking because
it's just like, yes, you know what this is right
now that you're feeling and how you're navigating or not
(40:34):
navigating your space. But what would it be like if
it's the complete opposite? Would it be like if you
were on top of it or it was addressed? What
space could that relieve in your brain? What space could
that create your bank account? Like? What would that mean
to you? And I think that because those type of
questions aren't always framed when it comes to our financial
(40:57):
place and space in life, it makes it harder for
us to conceptualize it as a possibility. So I think
that you know, in addition to like, you know these resources,
even if you're having like a quiet conversation with yourself,
like that's where it starts, even if it's five minutes
that's the time you carve out, or if you know
you're in the shower. Some people, you know, maybe will
(41:18):
kinds of things with the shower, like, maybe that's your time.
So it's not something additional that you have to find
time for, It's just a time.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
See. And if they're listening to this podcast in their
car or while they're out on a walk, then this
is this is free education. This is this is free
We are your cheerleaders. We want you to be successful.
How can we help you? No, absolutely so, while this
(41:50):
is we covered a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Today, Yeah, I talk a lot. Maybe you noticed.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
I love that because you're you're staying in our topic,
You're expressing information that people need to hear, and you
have this warm tone of voice that creates this comfortable space.
And of course, since this is audio only, they can't
see that you are this warm, comfortable person that it's like, oh, yeah,
(42:20):
I want to hear her talk. I want to hear
her tell her stories and help me figure out how
to create these bridges from myself from where I am
to where I want to be.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
I appreciate that greatly because that is something that I
definitely try to keep in mind in all lanes of
my work, especially because one of the big reasons that
I was so captivated, I guess is the best words
to describe it. I'm about social workers because there wasn't
a lot of representation when I was coming up of
(42:54):
people in mental health of social workers that even look
like me. So I always felt like it's important to
see people that look similar to you doing work, doing
the work, trying to model what things should look like
and be like, or even that there's another possibility for you,
which is part of also how I kind of came
(43:16):
into the lane, like I am the children, the child
of immigrance, so like I know what scarcity Shraupa looks like.
I do have ADHD back when way before it was
trendy and everybody said I have ADHD, but it's just
like ill you have ADHD, like I remember that, Or
(43:36):
the fact that you know a lot of times women
either go misdiagnosed or underdiagnosed, or the cooccurrence of anxiety
and sometimes depression is much higher with women. So a
lot of what motivates my professional work is the experiences
that I live through as well. And I'm not saying
that I live through everything because I also like to learn,
(43:58):
and there's a wholele thing I don't know, and it
is easier for me now to say I don't know,
but I also want to find out, Like if there's
something that I don't know, and especially if it's something
that could help me or someone else, I do want
to find out. And I think that's really important. And
on the coaching side of my work, I work with
new and emerging school social workers because like, we need
(44:21):
these people in schools. It's rough out here in these streets,
and if they're burning out, who's going to be there
for our children? So I just feel I was very
impacted by this, and as a result, I want to
roll that impact forward in a more positive light. And
I know that there are some things that affect so
many of us, but we're just not talking about it.
And you know what, we might not be ready to
(44:42):
talk about it, but you know, we might be ready
to listen, because some people will listen and they won't
say two things. But we're planting seeds. And at the
very least, even if those seeds that we're planting here
today do not turn into a deep forest that we
can see in this lifetime, the hope is that in
future ones that will be there based on the work
(45:05):
that we put in today.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Well, I you already know I agree with you fully,
that's why we're here. We're creating that space, we're planting
those seeds, and we're helping. We're trying to help to
create that path for the next people, to the next generation,
the next however many generations, and that path will get
(45:30):
smoothed out and it'll get comfortable. And because of the
work we're doing right now, because of the work you're
doing in all of these various aspects of and I
love that you are coaching new social workers. I mean,
that's so tremendous.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Thanks, and again motivated by the fact that I didn't
have support. The person that supervised me was a special
education teacher. She was wonderful, but she didn't come from
a helping her profession. She had educational pedagogy, not social
with pedagogy. So it's just like you had to learn
to build the plane while you were flying it. Not
(46:09):
everyone should have to go through that.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
Well, you have built a fabulous plane. And while I'm
gonna bring the podcast episode into a landing, I am
going to say that I'm going to have you back
because I just have to. You're too much fun not
to have back, and you have so much wonderful information,
and I love how willing you are to share your
information and your stories and yourself. And if you got
(46:37):
anything final you'd like to say before I make my goodbyes.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
Thank you for having me on, especially as one of
your first few guests. I am honored. I absolutely would
love to come back. You're probably gonna have to shut
me up again. And for those of you who are
just kind of starting out in whatever financial journey that
you are taking, just try to remember to give yourself.
They say Rome wasn't built in the day. Your financial
(47:03):
journey is your journey. I know a lot of times
you like to focus on the destination, but there's a
lot more richness to be had in the journey. So
embrace whatever it looks like every day we get one
percent better.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
I will have a link to Paula's website and podcast.
Why don't we talk about this in the show notes
and this is Money Marcy signing off from Marcie talks
money and life, And thank you again Paula, and we'll
(47:39):
see ya. You got this
Speaker 1 (47:42):
Until next time.
Powered by Riverside at Them.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
This is another episode of Marcie Talks Money and Life
with Money Marcy and that's me and I have been
privileged to meet wonderful people via my social media presence
and guesting on podcasts, and I am thrilled to be
able to introduce you to them. Today's guest, Paula McMillan Perez,
is a licensed clinical social worker, psychotherapist, social systems and
(00:30):
workflow strategists, and host of the why Don't We Talk
About This? Podcast. Paula is a talented therapist and coach
that works with people to improve their work life balance,
create joy in their lives while working to get past
a scarcity mindset and financial trauma. She is also a
great conversationalist and I am excited to be able to
(00:51):
share her with you. And here she is, Paula.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Hey, Hey, and thanks for the intro. Like I may
have to, you know, revise my own bio because while
I definitely do work with folks on financial trauma and
scarcity mindset, that's just been like the last couple of years,
because I do a lot of work around anxiety and ADHD.
But surprise, surprise, folks that have those two things struggle
(01:19):
with their finances and may or may not have had
some significant financial trauma. So I think, you know, highlighting
all of those things, you know, in my new revised
bio thanks to money, Marcy would be hopeful. So thank
you for the push in the right direction.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Well, you know, I got to do my research before
I have you, so truth be told. I have guested
on Paula's podcast twice now I think yes with always
plans to do more because I just love talking to her,
and I love talking to social workers because social workers
get people who have anxiety, who have issues and whatever else.
(01:55):
And so often in life we have issues around money,
and when you're having issues with your partner, it's not
uncommon that there is a money component to the issues.
And so I just love talking to people where we
can integrate different areas. I don't just want to talk
to financial people, though I do, because they have other
(02:18):
information than I do. But people who who express themselves
into the world differently and are aware that finance is
a part of so many of the other things. So
you know, let's see where we go.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Paula, I'm with it. Well, one thing I do want
to make sure that I kind of talk about, especially
because I also used it earlier. This Weekend Sessions was
during the last time that you came on my podcast,
you shared the launch of your app, and I have
to say that, even though like I previewed it like
before our episode, I find that I use it more
(02:56):
than some of my other resources now because the question
that you were able to put together, like they touch anybody,
no matter like your race, your religion, your culture, your background.
Money is something that impacts all of us, whether we
have it, whether we don''t have it, where we want it,
we dream about it. And the way that you kind
of like frame your questions is really just like straight
(03:20):
to the point, but there's like no shame involved. It's like, hey,
let's like reflect on this, like is this something that
you ever thought about before? And I always kind of
test out new things with my husband, like he's my
guinea pig, so it was like I don't do anything
with my clients or like any activity that I haven't
like tried out, So I don't want it to be like, oh, well,
(03:40):
like you don't know what this is, Like yeah, I
kind of do because I was my own guinea pig,
and I will admit that like sometimes I was just
like damn, like, this is what it feels like to
be on the other side of it. And I don't
know very many people in their professional practices that just
come out with a re source just to increase conversation. Yes,
(04:02):
the knowledge piece comes and you know, we may have
to identify like other resources, or we may do additional research.
We hopefully may get a financial planner, account and bookkeep
or something. But it increases the conversation around financial literacy,
even if that specific language isn't used. And I just
kind of wanted to highlight that before I forgot.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Thank you so much. And for those of you who
aren't aware, I have an app available on Android. You
can just go to the play store. It's called Let's
Talk About Money, and you'll see my little icon there
and it's conversation starters. So it's questions for you to
talk to your family about. It doesn't have the answers
because so many of these questions aren't a black and
(04:46):
white answer. They're not an answer for me to tell
you what is right for you and your family. It's
for the two of you to talk, or the four
of you, or whatever your situation. Is to talk so
you can determine what's the right thing for you. So
please feel free to check it out. As I said,
it's in the Android Store. You can use it on
chromebooks if you are someone who is educated on your
(05:07):
Apple stuff. There is programs you can run so that
you can run it on an Apple device, but it
is not currently available in the Apple Store. So so
thank you for mentioning that, Paula. I'm so glad that
you're liking it and using it and seeing what I intended.
So that makes me feel good that I did it.
I did it right.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yay, Yes you did. And I tell people about it
all the time, Like I have a few social work
friends who have gotten like their financial social Work certification,
even like a few like financial advisors that I'm like, hey,
like here's this app that I'm using. Here are some
resources that Marcy has, Like, I think that the informational
(05:48):
piece that kind of takes away a lot of the
shame and stigma surrounding people's feelings about it can kind of,
you know, reduce it just enough that you can open
the mind. And I think that once you open the door,
open the mind, open the door, it creates an opportunity
to just be like, okay, like am I ready to
have this conversation? Maybe not, but maybe if I answer
(06:09):
one of these questions, it'll kind of like give me
a little clue or maybe activate something in me to
figure out, like why does this feel so hard? Like
why why have I not talked about this? Or like
is this something I talked about with my family? Is
this something that I know? Am I completely scared and overwhelmed?
And it has also helped me kind of uncover a
few things with clients in a more conversational style, because
(06:30):
even though you know I am clinically trained and you
know a few different modalities, people just need to talk.
Like we don't need to utilize you know, the psych
and the social work terms, like we just need to
like talk. So I just I just wanted to highlight that.
And I know some of y'all listening are like Donald,
they plan this, like it really didn't Like I wanted.
I wanted to be able to highlight this because I've
been telling people in real life and now I'm telling
(06:51):
people in the podcast.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
And oh and I did not plan on this first
bit being a commercial for me. I do appreciate it
but let's talk about what you do in your work
and how you feel money relates in various ways, or
how you came to be working so much in money
from a social work standpoint.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Well, that's gonna be the whole episode. But I'll do
my best so.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
I can always invite you back. I know the boss.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
I'm down all right, you have an end, so I'm
with that. So I I'm trying to think of where
to begin. So I started, well, I graduated in twenty
eleven with my master's in social work, but I was
working in social services prior, so even when I came
out of undergrad, I was in the field. And I
(07:44):
purposefully went to a generalist practice program, which basically means
it's just general. It gives you like a broad education
on all things social work, as opposed to some social
work program where you have to choose a concentration. And
they can look different, but usually the main ones are
(08:04):
like clinical policy or end or administration advocacy. Sometimes there's
like a little school social work. Sometimes there's substance abuse,
so but certain programs are structured differently. But I felt,
even though social work is such a beautiful field, because
it is so broad and you can touch on different areas.
I wasn't sure at the time like the direction I
(08:24):
wanted to go, So I didn't feel like I would
have been I don't want to say successful, but I
didn't feel like it would have been me like I
would have been an accurate representation of my educational experience
to choose a concentration. So I purposefully chose a generalist
practice school. And one of the things that I learned
kind of in that journey is that I have more
(08:47):
than one interest. And the beauty of the field because
it is so broad, is that you don't necessarily have
to specialize in one thing. But you know, there is
benefit in niching down, which is, you know, one of
the buzzwords of like the last decade. But for the
most part, I was trauma trained. And part of the
reason for that is because I work with historically marginalized communities.
(09:07):
I worked with populations that were mandated to attend certain services.
So if let's say, for the sake of argument, maybe
they were incarcerated, or they were in an alternative to
incarceration program, or you know, they got caught up in
some things outside and it was like, well, you either
do this, or you're going back in or maybe they
(09:29):
were in a residential program because you know, they were
in transition, or in recovery, or you know, any number
of things. And part of one of the things that
I noticed in the scope of that work was that
usually some of these clients HEU didn't have a lot
of access, whether that was due to growing up in poverty,
(09:52):
whether that was due to a lack of just accessibility
to supports and services, whether that was appropriate education, appropriate literacy.
And we know that financial literacy, unfortunately isn't something that
is a main focus in school. But even some of
these populations I worked with, they didn't get very far
(10:13):
in school for a variety of different reasons, so that
also limited access. But as a result of it, like
we talked about money, but from the lens of I
need to get it, like I need it, like this
is how to take care of my family, or this
is how I stopped myself from homelessness, or you know,
so many other themes. And I think that even though
(10:35):
I knew it was like an area I kind of
wanted to tackle, I wasn't necessarily sure how to go
about it. And for me, I was one of those
young kids that learned the hard way when kind of
segueing real quick. When I was in college, I was
one of those students that fell into you know, those
predatory traps for freshmen where like you know, you just
(10:56):
got on campus and you're getting like, you know, your
posters for you room, and it's like, hey, get a
free toe bag or a T shirt or a radio
if you sign up for this credit card. I knew
information about credit, like overall, like, based on information, my
mom has excellent credit. Like all my friends are like,
we want your mama's credit score. Like that was always
(11:17):
something that you know, we all aspire to. So I
was like, but I got this, and I did for
a little while, and then I did it because as
a broke college student, it's like yeah, because you know,
I'm going to work in the summer or I'm going
to use my work study money. And it went left.
And I was very fortunate, not just fortunate, privileged even
that you know, my mom bailed me out of that
(11:39):
situation and she was like, listen, this is it like
if you make you know, these decisions moving forward, like
I'm not going to get you out of this, whereas
many people do not have that level of support to
do that, and I utilize that example because it's a
predatory is because a lot of people don't know how
(12:01):
credit works, and they get caught up in a situation
that they can't get themselves out of because they don't
understand how interest works, the difference between daily interest, the
difference between the annual percentage rate, how finance charges work,
and it's a lot of jargon. Plus there's the tiny
teeny any bad legalese at the bottom that no eighteen
(12:22):
year old is trying to read. So for a lot
of you know, the work that I have done over
the last several years comes from the place that sometimes
we just weren't taught. I was fortunate that I was,
but I also had, you know, the stubborn streak, and
you know, I got this and you know I could
figure it out that put me in a situation I
(12:42):
didn't want to be in, which is a story that
I do share with clients because that's just one lens
or one lane. But the thing about it is that
we're not, like I mentioned before, we're not really taught.
So there's a lot of shame and stigma surrounding money
man management. Surrounding poverty. There has been discussion around oh,
(13:05):
like you know, people just need to get organized or
get on a budget and they can get themselves out
of anything. You can't wish your way out of poverty.
You can't like it would be great because if that
were the case, we wouldn't have so many impoverished communities
over and it's not even nationally internationally, and it's not
just communities of color. I know people who identify as white,
(13:27):
people who identify as Asian who either grew up in
or for one reason or another, live in poverty. And
some of us we are one paycheck away from being
in poverty. Because I don't even know the statistics, so
I don't want to butcher it, but many Americans are
living paycheck to paycheck, and if unemployment becomes a significant concern,
(13:51):
there's going to be a whole host of additional significant concerns.
So because I work in mental health and I know
that there has been great stigma well around reaching out
for support, regardless to whether you have a mental health
diagnosis or you're just going through it. Because the life
is lifing, many people have something, whether it's a significant
(14:11):
financial trauma, and that could be that they grew up
in poverty. That could be that they are underemployed, under insured,
under resourced, underfunded. So you see where I'm going here
with the under and I think that a piece of
that just adds on to the weight of the shame
that people are carrying because like, I can't wish myself
(14:34):
out of it. I can get a second job, but
then I burn out. That impacts my health. I don't
have the time or the resources to kind of take
a day off because maybe I don't have PTO, maybe
I don't have childcare to go to the doctor. Maybe
I'm under insured, or maybe I have insurance that's great,
but it doesn't have a decent prescription plan and I
can't afford my medication. Right.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
What people don't realize is even the people in the
best neighborhoods or with high paying jobs are living paycheck
to paycheck. That this isn't just for people that have
low income. There are there are people that have high income.
There are people that came from from privilege through their parents, whatever,
(15:17):
and you know their their job that they have doesn't
earn as much as their parents earned, let's say, or
they live a more expensive lifestyle and certainly more expensive
than they can afford. That they haven't generated the savings
the emergency. They figure if they pay their credit card
(15:37):
monthly monthly minimum, that they're doing okay, and they budget
for well, as long as I can make the minimum
I can, I can keep going. So it's it's scarier
that the lack of education. You know, people who have
money want to learn about it, and they're the ones
who can afford to make the mistakes. And it's the
(15:59):
people who who don't have money or who are living
those tight budgets that really need to make the effort
to learn because they are that one bad choice, whether
there's or someone else's, away from flipping into poverty.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Yeah, and then if you think about and I've lived
in New York City my entire life, so even though
I've visited several different states, you know, there are things
that when you grow up in a larger metropolitan area
that they don't necessarily resonate with you, in contrast to
people that may live in smaller town smaller communities that
(16:40):
also play a role. So a situation that comes to
mind is, you know, New York's popular for bordegas or
corner stores, and yes, you can get a lot of
your basic needs groceries and things that are really random,
and you're like, why is this even in here in
a bodega, But the markup is very signific But you're
(17:00):
paying for the convenience of the fact that you didn't
have to cross the street. You just have to walk
out of your building or work out of your house
and walk to the corner or the middle of the
block or whatever have you to get what you need. Now,
if you are on a fixed income and let's say
you need to buy your basics bread, milk, cheese, eggs,
things of that nature, you can get all of those items.
(17:21):
But if you go to the grocery store that's maybe five, six,
seven blocks away, you might be able to save money
and get it cheaper. Or if you live near let's
say a target, Target sometimes is even cheaper than going
to the grocery store. But then there's the accessibility piece.
And in New York you can take a bus, you
can take a train, A lot of us walk, but
(17:42):
what if you live in a rural county in Florida
and you don't have a car and the only store
that you have accessible to you is like right outside
of your development or your complex. You have to get
what you need because that's your only option. So we
don't talk a lot about the relationship between our finances
(18:02):
and accessibility because sometimes we don't have access. Sometimes it
is the privilege. And these are also uncomfortable conversations to
have because that also means that we have to admit
we don't know something, we don't have something, we don't
have access to something, and then that makes us feel
that shame, that guilt, a lot of these negative emotions
that we're already fighting against because again, life be lifing
(18:27):
and we are constantly in survival mode. And when people
are like, oh, but people say we're in survival mode
all the time. The way I break that down is
it's really easy for us as people to be negative.
Nobody knows why. So it's like, damn, I messed up.
I stub my toe against the bed again. Oh I'm
such an idiot? Or I you know, burnt subscrambled eggs,
(18:50):
like this is easy, like a baby could do this,
Like what's wrong with me? It comes out very easy,
it's very casual, and people are like, I don't I
don't underst and why it's just something I've always done.
And part of the reason for that is because it
speaks to that survival mode. Now, even if we don't
and everybody has trauma, there's big T trauma, little T trauma,
but everybody has trauma. But the reason I bring this
(19:13):
up is because we've had so much transpire in our lives,
we don't realize how hypervigilant, how aware we are that
something is gonna go wrong or badly because we're always
prepared for it. Because that is a survival instinct that
we have had. It's literally in our DNA, like it
has been passed down no matter how affluent or whatever,
(19:34):
or you know, good stock or breeding that we came from.
It's at one of our basic things that we need
to survive because as people, as human beings, our major
goal is to reproduce to be able to keep the
species alive. So we have to have our heads at
a swivel to make sure that we're maintaining our safety.
So because of that, all of that, all that language
(19:57):
translates into that, but we don't necessary realize. Oh, we
have to put time and effort and energy into switching
that mindset and changing it into something more positive as
opposed to leaving it fixed in the negative because it's
usually negative. So that takes retraining and rewiring of our brains.
And if we have a lot of little tea traumas
(20:17):
or a lot of big t traumas, we have to
do even more work because trauma does rewire the brain.
So if we have financial trauma, because let's say maybe
grandma got her car repode and she couldn't get to work,
and she lost her home and she had to move
in with her sister, and then we were all doubled
up in this apartment and then it was maybe three
(20:39):
generations living in there, and we had to share clothes
and all of these things. Then sometimes the scarcity mindset
slips in because we kind of had to make do
what we had. We had to Jimmy rig Giggs, and
we had to kind of get creative and get it together,
and that's how we came up. So that's the default.
So even if we're doing a little bit better or
(21:00):
we're in a space where we feel like we have
a little bit more flexibility, there comes some shame at times,
especially when these individuals are like, oh, remember how hard
we have it. You can't be wasteful. You can't blow
your extra salary or your bonus ooh, you're going out
to dinner. That's a piece of it. And then if
you come from an immigrant community where your family, whether
it's your parents, your siblings, immigrated from another country and
(21:23):
they had limited resources, there's a lot of similarities there
as well. That's also a source of financial trauma that
we don't really talk about. So when we hear first
gen second gen kids are doing things like there's a
lot of internal work that they have to do when
they surpass some of the expectations of their parents, which
(21:44):
they wanted because that's why they came to this country.
But there's a lot of undoing too, and their money
story gets caught up in that.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
So how do we break some of these cycles and
how do we reach these people that I mean, let's
face it, if you're struggling to day, you're not going
to an accountant. If you file your tax return at all,
you are going to one of those free sites you're
doing whatever have access. Some libraries have free tax filers,
(22:12):
preparers there, or whatever else. But you're getting whoever you're getting.
When I was in college, I volunteered with volunteer income
tax assistants, so I would help these people prepare their
tax returns. At that point in time back in the
Stone Age, this was manual on pay per forms, and
they would see me one year and then I'd graduate
and they'd see someone else. So they didn't get any
(22:34):
continuity of financial care, any continuity of financial education. They
basically got their tax return prepared and hopefully a refund
off of it. But there was no opportunity for them to,
whether through education or through coaching or for whatever, to
break that cycle.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yeah, it turned into oh, this is thing I have
to do because you know, the government needs their money,
so like I have to do my taxes. And it
gets challenging too because even with the window of time.
So I believe there's some stipulation in Marci, this is
(23:16):
your you're closer to your wheel house, so please correct
me if I'm wrong. There's some stipulation that W two's
and ten ninety nine's and those forms need to be
sent out by a certain time.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Well that's by the company that is, so they need
to be sent out by the end of January, so
you should have yours theoretically by the beginning of February,
and now that more of them are distributing them online. Obviously,
at the time they send it, you virtually have it
in your email box or the link to it with
you use your code, But you still have to prepare
(23:47):
the tax return to get your refund, and if you
are unhoused, and then where do these forms go if
they don't go online? And I imagine that there are
people out there who don't have some art phones, who
don't have access to continual email, that don't have access
to to those things. So the question is how how
(24:08):
do we help them break the cycle? Because they don't
want to be on welfare, they don't want to be
on social assistance. They would like to get to a
point where they have a more stable life for themselves.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
You know.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
And they're thinking, Okay, well, i'll learn about money later
on when I have some, Yes, And if you don't
learn about it, getting some is going to You can't
learn how to swim after you get out of the water.
You have to you have to learn before the boat sinks.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
No, absolutely, And part of the reason that I even
brought that piece up is because like that brings up
triggers for people, because it's like, Okay, I have to
wait either for this thing to come in the mail
or get it from work, or just like you said,
I may not have access to technology that's gonna enable
me to maybe access it faster. And then what do
(25:03):
I do? Because I may not know where to go.
I may not have the skills or the abilities to
even you know, navigate one of these free sites, or
have the technology to be able to do it. I
may ask a friend or a coworker, and then, because
I know it's something I need to get done, I
don't necessarily know where they're sending me is reputable, if
(25:24):
they're going to do a good job. I don't necessarily
know what questions to ask. I'm also at the mercy
of this person, and the hope is that they do
a good enough job for me to get a refund.
And then I have a lot of feelings about refunds
because I'm like, Okay, y'all already got a tax freeload
out of me, and I don't get no interest. But
that's a different story, and there's all of this surrounding that,
(25:49):
and that brings me to thinking of a client that
I worked with that she didn't fell taxes for like
six years, because as soon as the discussion of the
tax season came up, she begun to freeze, and she
called herself an ostrich. She would put her head in
the sand because like it was just too much to
deal with because she didn't have systems in place, and
(26:11):
we were able to identify that part of the reason
she didn't have systems in place was that she grew
up fearing what that meant, because that was something that
her parents were fearful of. Her father he was disabled,
so he was unable to work. So mom was holding
down the house with one income, two children, two adults,
and at one point three adults when Grandma came to
(26:33):
live and who was also on a fixed income, So
that that was a generational trauma that came up for her.
Around just taxes, that's just not even all of the
other financial things, because she was also divorced, had children.
You know, there are other themes that come up. So
one of the things that we talked about is just
like what are some of the things that you have heard,
(26:54):
at least heard from other people around money management, around
tax planning, around with like what are some of the
terms even if you don't know what they mean, because
a lot of times as people, we do not give
ourselves credit for what we actually know. We don't think
we know anything, or it's just like, oh, that's not
my wheelhouse. Like I'm not a CPA, I'm not a
(27:16):
tax professional accountant. But there are things that have been
floating around that you actually may know a little bit
more than you think. So, for example, she was somebody
in an old job had convinced her to sign up
for a four h one K, so she was having
money that was taken out of her check and she
didn't even remember where the information is. So it's never
(27:38):
something that she was able to kind of log in
and access and you know, utilize, you know, the or
look at the statements for So I said, we're gonna
leave that for right now, because like that's not one
of the priority areas she identified that she wanted to reach.
But one of the things that she identified, she's like,
you know what I'm paying for you know, my my
(27:58):
my child who's in SCO right now. I don't have
additional resources to be able to figure this out. And
I said, okay, YouTube University. Every time I say that
to people, they'd be like, oh my god, But the
reason that I bring that up is because if we
think about the resources that we do have access to.
And don't get me wrong, there are people on YouTube
that do not know what they're talking about. But let
(28:21):
us also kind of filter through what we have access
to to look at what the building blocks are. And
that's somebody that felt comfortable with technology. I've also worked
with somebody who was an older individual and though they
were trying to get the hang of it, didn't feel
like super confident in like navigating the laptop that they
were gifted. They would write down like all their questions
(28:42):
on a pad, or like things that came up over
the course of like the week or until like we met,
because they wanted to make sure that, you know, we
talked about these certain areas, so we identified some of
the questions that were coming up around Okay, I'm getting
closer to retirement, I don't know how this is gonna work.
Or a client who is graduating college and is completely
(29:04):
terrified of being in the real world because the only
job that they've ever really had was like in the summer,
and they didn't make enough money to have to file taxes.
So it's like, where do I go or I'm hearing
my friends have high yield savings accounts? What is that?
So it's just like we're hearing these terms, but we
don't necessarily know what they mean. So it's just like, Okay,
(29:26):
we can look them up, like you can google that.
Some of y'all still got dictionaries, We can look them up.
We can start with the basics because I look at
it and this is also how I describe it and
not just my therapeutic work, with my coaching work. Think
of it like Legos, even before all the Lego playsets that,
like you know, Star Wars and the flowers and the
(29:47):
retro things got really popular back in the day when
I was a kid, we had colors, and we had sizes,
and we had our imagination and we built. So we
just need one piece to build on. Keep going from there.
And what ends up happening is as you increase your
knowledge base, you also increase your confidence level, whether that's
(30:08):
to ask additional questions, identify additional resources, go to that
friend or colleague or coworker that you trust, maybe for
a recommendation, or just like how do we do this?
Not maybe not how I do this? Or how do
you do this, but like, how is this something that
gets done? And just to add on, I think something
else that we could also do a really good job
(30:29):
at for those of us who have people that feel
comfortable enough to talk about money, have like those conversations
like people had Mary Kay parties and Tupperware parties. Let's
just get together and be like, oh, man, Like I
got a checkbook and I was like, who writes checks anymore?
(30:53):
My friend was like, I do, because that's how I
pay my rent. And then my other friend was like, really,
because I just zell my landlord and I just make
sure that I put rent the month in the year.
I even put his whole name in it, just the
case so that there's no confusion, because him and his
wife and they were like what these weren't things that
some of the other people were even thinking about. Or
(31:16):
the fact that when you get a mortgage, you know
you can just have like it direct depositive to the
mortgage account like I have. I've been a homeowner for
a few years now. I didn't know that, like they
can take care of like my property taxes and my
homeowner's insurance all in that one payment. I thought I
had to pay like these different people. So I asked,
(31:38):
what are the ways that I get these things paid?
Because I didn't know my mom rented. So it's just like,
how do we begin to have conversations. Let's start with
the people, and hopefully we have at least one person
that we feel comfortable enough with to have just general
conversations and kind of like access what to they know,
(32:01):
because we're already in a place, in a space where
we feel like, oh, I could tell how about this
ridiculousness that's happened at work, or this fool that I,
you know, got together with from a dating site but
he ghost to me. But it's alright because he wasn't ready.
If we can talk about those things, we can kind
of talk about Man, I had this overdraft and that
wasn't cool. But I don't I don't know, okay, but oh,
(32:25):
have you tried this? Or oh, like, here's another alternative
to hear about what other people are doing, or even
if you don't want to put your own situation out there,
oh I saw this thing on the news or TMZ
or world's thoughts. I don't even know if people are
still looking at a world.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
Star, but like, you know, social media and kind of
like make it broad to hear like people's thoughts and
feelings about it with if you don't feel vulnerable enough
or safe enough in those spaces to kind of identify
your own personal situation because it gets the mind going
about what possibilities are.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
And it also helps you feel less alone because many times,
especially when it comes to finances, we feel like we're
doing it wrong, we're messing it up, We're not gonna
have any future, and it's just us. And the amount
of people that are struggling is a lot. Like I mentioned,
I'm a homeowner. I'm responsible for all of this, was
up the breaks. We're like and you know what, Sometimes
(33:22):
I'm like, well, I thought I was gonna buy new
tires for my car, but instead I might be buying
a new washing machine because mine is making like funny noises. Yeah,
so it's just like also like how we're looking at
the world and with that washing machine? Did I put
money aside for those tires and now I have to
use toward the washing machine? Am I going to use
(33:45):
a credit card? Am I going to use a store
card like a best buyer? Which I'm not because the
interest is ridiculous, But like, what are my options? Because
the sad reality of it is there's always options. Sometimes
there're too bad options. We have options. So I think
that those are some of the ways that we can
kind of get started, and I have I'm still holding
(34:07):
out hope and I will until my dying breath that
financial literacy will be something that is taught in schools
from since young and it's something that we can build
on the same way we build on English and math skills,
that these are skills that we can also build on
because knowledge is the way that we also set ourselves
free from some of these things, because we can create
other opportunities. But that's a hilliabile die on.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Well, I agree with you. I don't know how we
can teach it in schools from the beginning. You just
kind of integrate it into the math and that becomes
some of the story problems that you talk about have
more and more of them have a financial component, you know,
where you talk about not just he had five apples
(34:51):
and someone took three apples, and how many apples did
he have? And how many people could he make apple
sauce for and whatever else, but you have the financial
aspect of it. That's more than just doing the math
part of it, but understanding the bigger issue of it.
So you know, I think finding mentors and finding quality mentors,
(35:15):
especially for financial is hard because you know, yes, you
go to YouTube university, or you figure out who you
want to follow on TikTok or Instagram or whatever else,
and you don't know who they are. Now I hold
myself out as a CPA, well that's because I am
a CPA, but unless you look me up, you may
(35:37):
not know that I really am I unless someone reports
someone and says, well, this person is faking it. You
don't know what people are and what they say they are,
what's real and what's quality of that you have to make.
You have to make guesses based on how they present
themselves or who recommends them to you, or where they
(36:00):
that's coming through. So that's a little bit scary. One
thing I recommend to people is almost everybody, almost every adult,
has a bank account. Because you have to to cast
your paycheck to do whatever it is, you need a
bank account, even if it's always overdrawn. Your bank is
a great place to find a mentor of sorts. They
(36:22):
offer more services than you are aware of. They want
you to be successful, because if you're successful, you're going
to have more money, which means they will have more
of your money. So you know when you are looking
at what your opportunities might be, where you can ask
questions and where you can get information. A bank is
certainly a place to consider to see what they have,
(36:45):
to see what they offer. It's frustrating that we have
so much communication opportunity and yet there are so many
scammers out there. You don't know who's what and what
they are, and the fear of people knowing who you are.
So I do have periodically people will email me with
a question. I have a form on my website where
(37:05):
they could even put their question and I wouldn't know
who they are because I don't track who puts things
in the form, and then I answer those Some of
the time on my social media, as a question comes up,
I'll say, okay, I got this question, and I address it,
whether I know who the person is or not. I
don't typically share it unless someone says, hey, I want
(37:25):
you to use my name, which no one has ever done,
which is fine because if you have a question, a
lot more people have that question. You are not the
least aware person out there. You are not the only
person who doesn't know something, So ask the question you know.
(37:47):
We can go back to my app when you said
people you know don't want to talk about something as
it's personal. Well, if the question comes up on the
app and you're talking about the hypotheticals, they don't have
to know how hypothetical. Your situation is that that question
hit a nerve and you're talking from personal experience, you
can say, oh wow, if someone had XYZ happened to them.
(38:10):
So I think it's important to have those questions. You
might find out you have a mentor you didn't realize.
You might find out that you know the answer to
your friend's question and they know the answer to your question.
If you just figure out find a way to talk
about it, start a book discussion group and pull out
the financial literacy books you know they are available. Libraries
(38:34):
are still one of the best free resources we have
out there, and now with Hoopla and the other web services,
you don't even have to go to the library to
make use of their resources and to take the opportunity
to learn. The cycle is not going to break without
(38:54):
you putting in the effort. You can hire all the
social workers. You can hire all the the therapists and
all the accountants, but if you're not going to do
the work to create the change, it's not gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
No. I agree with that, and I think that sometimes
that is the scary part for folks realizing that, you know,
as busy as their lives are, or regardless of how
many hats that they wear in the places and spaces
that they have to show up. Recognizing that I have
to kind of carve out time to tackle this, or
(39:32):
not only do I need to carve out time, but
it needs to kind of be in like an ongoing
process can feel very daunting for people who are already
feeling overwhelmed. But one of the I guess questions or
prompts that I pose is that is absolutely true. You
do need to be in the place, in the space
and have the bandwidth. But imagine what it could be
(39:52):
like if this wasn't a thorn in your side, whether
it's every payday or quarterly or every tax season, imagine
what that could feel like. And then or I might
bust down my miracle question, which is, you know, every
social worker's dream to make manifest is if everything was
exactly the way that you wanted it to be with
(40:13):
your finances or with your taxes, or you had no
financial trauma or no scarcity mindset. What would that look like?
And how would you know? Some people love the question,
some people hate it, but it gets you thinking because
it's just like, yes, you know what this is right
now that you're feeling and how you're navigating or not
(40:34):
navigating your space. But what would it be like if
it's the complete opposite? Would it be like if you
were on top of it or it was addressed? What
space could that relieve in your brain? What space could
that create your bank account? Like? What would that mean
to you? And I think that because those type of
questions aren't always framed when it comes to our financial
(40:57):
place and space in life, it makes it harder for
us to conceptualize it as a possibility. So I think
that you know, in addition to like, you know these resources,
even if you're having like a quiet conversation with yourself,
like that's where it starts, even if it's five minutes
that's the time you carve out, or if you know
you're in the shower. Some people, you know, maybe will
(41:18):
kinds of things with the shower, like, maybe that's your time.
So it's not something additional that you have to find
time for, It's just a time.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
See. And if they're listening to this podcast in their
car or while they're out on a walk, then this
is this is free education. This is this is free
We are your cheerleaders. We want you to be successful.
How can we help you? No, absolutely so, while this
(41:50):
is we covered a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Today, Yeah, I talk a lot. Maybe you noticed.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
I love that because you're you're staying in our topic,
You're expressing information that people need to hear, and you
have this warm tone of voice that creates this comfortable space.
And of course, since this is audio only, they can't
see that you are this warm, comfortable person that it's like, oh, yeah,
(42:20):
I want to hear her talk. I want to hear
her tell her stories and help me figure out how
to create these bridges from myself from where I am
to where I want to be.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
I appreciate that greatly because that is something that I
definitely try to keep in mind in all lanes of
my work, especially because one of the big reasons that
I was so captivated, I guess is the best words
to describe it. I'm about social workers because there wasn't
a lot of representation when I was coming up of
(42:54):
people in mental health of social workers that even look
like me. So I always felt like it's important to
see people that look similar to you doing work, doing
the work, trying to model what things should look like
and be like, or even that there's another possibility for you,
which is part of also how I kind of came
(43:16):
into the lane, like I am the children, the child
of immigrance, so like I know what scarcity Shraupa looks like.
I do have ADHD back when way before it was
trendy and everybody said I have ADHD, but it's just
like ill you have ADHD, like I remember that, Or
(43:36):
the fact that you know a lot of times women
either go misdiagnosed or underdiagnosed, or the cooccurrence of anxiety
and sometimes depression is much higher with women. So a
lot of what motivates my professional work is the experiences
that I live through as well. And I'm not saying
that I live through everything because I also like to learn,
(43:58):
and there's a wholele thing I don't know, and it
is easier for me now to say I don't know,
but I also want to find out, Like if there's
something that I don't know, and especially if it's something
that could help me or someone else, I do want
to find out. And I think that's really important. And
on the coaching side of my work, I work with
new and emerging school social workers because like, we need
(44:21):
these people in schools. It's rough out here in these streets,
and if they're burning out, who's going to be there
for our children? So I just feel I was very
impacted by this, and as a result, I want to
roll that impact forward in a more positive light. And
I know that there are some things that affect so
many of us, but we're just not talking about it.
And you know what, we might not be ready to
(44:42):
talk about it, but you know, we might be ready
to listen, because some people will listen and they won't
say two things. But we're planting seeds. And at the
very least, even if those seeds that we're planting here
today do not turn into a deep forest that we
can see in this lifetime, the hope is that in
future ones that will be there based on the work
(45:05):
that we put in today.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Well, I you already know I agree with you fully,
that's why we're here. We're creating that space, we're planting
those seeds, and we're helping. We're trying to help to
create that path for the next people, to the next generation,
the next however many generations, and that path will get
(45:30):
smoothed out and it'll get comfortable. And because of the
work we're doing right now, because of the work you're
doing in all of these various aspects of and I
love that you are coaching new social workers. I mean,
that's so tremendous.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Thanks, and again motivated by the fact that I didn't
have support. The person that supervised me was a special
education teacher. She was wonderful, but she didn't come from
a helping her profession. She had educational pedagogy, not social
with pedagogy. So it's just like you had to learn
to build the plane while you were flying it. Not
(46:09):
everyone should have to go through that.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
Well, you have built a fabulous plane. And while I'm
gonna bring the podcast episode into a landing, I am
going to say that I'm going to have you back
because I just have to. You're too much fun not
to have back, and you have so much wonderful information,
and I love how willing you are to share your
information and your stories and yourself. And if you got
(46:37):
anything final you'd like to say before I make my goodbyes.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
Thank you for having me on, especially as one of
your first few guests. I am honored. I absolutely would
love to come back. You're probably gonna have to shut
me up again. And for those of you who are
just kind of starting out in whatever financial journey that
you are taking, just try to remember to give yourself.
They say Rome wasn't built in the day. Your financial
(47:03):
journey is your journey. I know a lot of times
you like to focus on the destination, but there's a
lot more richness to be had in the journey. So
embrace whatever it looks like every day we get one
percent better.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
I will have a link to Paula's website and podcast.
Why don't we talk about this in the show notes
and this is Money Marcy signing off from Marcie talks
money and life, And thank you again Paula, and we'll
(47:39):
see ya. You got this
Speaker 1 (47:42):
Until next time.
Host
Marci Grossman
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