July 23, 2025 • 43 mins
Let's talk about the importance of being open to learning and teaching the next generation of leaders.
Jenna Heath is a talented communicator, educator and professional connector of people! She received her Bachelor of Arts in Communication and Political Science from San Diego State University (SDSU) and her Masters in Education from University of Nevada, Las Vegas.
After graduating she meandered many different career fields such as: start ups, fitness, non-profit, fundraising, food and beverage before landing in higher education.
She is deeply committed to training the next generation of leaders utilizing a wide variety of mediums. Her leadership extends to teaching, as she is an adjunct faculty member at University of Nevada, Las Vegas, Nevada State University and the University of Denver, where she instructs courses on leadership development and career readiness.
She launched her podcast, Tearin’ up My Heart: Emotional Leadership Lessons in 2024 with the goal of helping listeners to understand the emotional side of leadership, and make education accessible for those that might not be able to afford traditional schooling.
Follow Marci Talks Money (and Life) wherever you get your podcasts to get the episodes as they post.
Visit MoneyMarci.com for other financial literacy resources.
Jenna Heath is a talented communicator, educator and professional connector of people! She received her Bachelor of Arts in Communication and Political Science from San Diego State University (SDSU) and her Masters in Education from University of Nevada, Las Vegas.
After graduating she meandered many different career fields such as: start ups, fitness, non-profit, fundraising, food and beverage before landing in higher education.
She is deeply committed to training the next generation of leaders utilizing a wide variety of mediums. Her leadership extends to teaching, as she is an adjunct faculty member at University of Nevada, Las Vegas, Nevada State University and the University of Denver, where she instructs courses on leadership development and career readiness.
She launched her podcast, Tearin’ up My Heart: Emotional Leadership Lessons in 2024 with the goal of helping listeners to understand the emotional side of leadership, and make education accessible for those that might not be able to afford traditional schooling.
Follow Marci Talks Money (and Life) wherever you get your podcasts to get the episodes as they post.
Visit MoneyMarci.com for other financial literacy resources.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Powered by Riverside n Hello, Welcome to Marcie talks Money
in Life. I'm Money Marcy. I appreciate this opportunity to
meet interesting people who are able and willing to share
their stories about their financial journeys. My guest today is
Jenna Heath. Jenna is a talented communicator, educator, and professional
(00:24):
connector of people. She received her Bachelor of Arts and
Communication and Political Science from San Diego State University and
her master's in Education from University of Nevada, Las Vegas.
After graduating, she meandered through many different career fields such
as startups, fitness, nonprofits, fundraising, food and beverage before landing
(00:46):
in higher education. She is deeply committed to training the
next generation of leaders utilizing a wide variety of mediums
or Leadership extends to teaching, and she is an adjunct
faculty member at University of Nevada, Las Vegas, Vada State University,
and the University of Denver, where she instructs courses on
leadership development and career readiness. She launched her podcast Tearing
(01:09):
Up My Heart Emotional Leadership Lessons in twenty twenty four
with the goal of helping listeners to understand the emotional
side of leadership and making education accessible to those that
might not be able to afford traditional schooling. I could
go on and on, but let's welcome Jenna.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Thanks for having Mercia. I'm excited to chat with you today.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Well, I'm so excited to chat with you. I have
people fill out a form when they're going to be
my guest and tell me areas they'd like to talk about,
and Jenna's was debt Free to debt by Choice, which
I think is fascinating and I can't wait to hear
the stories behind it. And as someone with the background
that you have, I know there's so much stories and
(01:51):
information to share and I'm really excited about it.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Well, thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, I feel like I have a really kind of
a hot take on debt freedom living, so I'm really
excited for the opportunity to share a little bit more,
especially just all the great information that you're sharing on
your podcast and your career, Like you are definitely an
expert in this space, so I figure I can learn
a little bit from you as well.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Oh, thank you. So I guess from your story what
I got was that you and your husband some reason
decided to go debt free and that lasted for seven years.
So I guess I'm going to back up a little bit.
And before you got married, obviously, for both of you,
you had financial lessons you learned I assume at home
growing up or the lack thereof or lack there of.
(02:32):
Fair enough, were the both of you in the same situation.
Did you come from relatively similar backgrounds and information or
did you come from different places and had to find
a way to meet.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Well, that's such a good question. Totally different spaces. So
we were both for the most part, raised by single
parents who were in really different spaces of their life.
My dad adopted me when he was forty, so he
was very well established in his career and definitely, I
would say had a comfortable middle class life style. But
I also was raised in a home where, like we
didn't talk about money. I knew my dad did well
(03:05):
in his career. He was an air traft controller, he
worked for the federal government. He was in the military first,
and so I knew my dad, you know, was going
to be able to take care of me, and I
never questioned that. My husband, on the other hand, was
raised by a single mom who was working her way
up in food and BEV was not making a lot
of money. They cohabitated a lot with his grandparents and
there was a lot of shared living spaces and he
(03:27):
was always taken care of, there was never any question
about that. But he definitely didn't live I guess in
the state of comfortability that I grew up in. And
so we got married really young. I was twenty three
when we got married, so when we were definitely still
figuring it out, we had just graduated from college, and
we graduated in college right after the eight recession, so
not exactly the best time to be launching a career,
(03:48):
I would say.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
And it was weird.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
You know, it's so weird for couples to start merging
finances in general. That's such an odd thing that no
one really teaches you how to do, let alone how
to do.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
It well, or if you want to.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Right now, I think a lot more couples are not
merging finances, which more power to them. Husband and I
didn't really we didn't come from the same background. We
didn't have the same knowledge on financial literacy. I would
actually say neither of us had knowledge on financial literacy.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
But the way our.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Families talked about money was really different, and I think
it was really difficult for us. So when we got married,
bought a house, like we did everything the world tells
you you're supposed to do. We went to college, we
graduated from college, we bought a house immediately we got married,
and we just literally were kind of like figuring it
out as we go. And there I was. I was
about twenty five when we started our debt free journey,
(04:36):
and it really was an essence at like a necessity
in our life. At that point that I had finished
my masters, we had no school debt, so kudos to us,
Like we had a bunch of scholarships and gritin aids,
so we don't have any student loans anything like that.
So that's one thing we did, right, I guess. But
after that, when I finished my masters, we started accumulating
just a ton of consumer debt, Like we bought a
(04:58):
car that was way too expensive that we couldn't afford.
We had just bought a house, so we were trying
to fix everything in the house and buy furniture and
all these things. And again, no one really taught us
about saving money, so we didn't have any money saved
up so we were just literally throwing everything on credit cards,
and then all of a sudden one day we were
you know, just I guess, kind of sitting down and
being like, oh, we should pay our bills. And we
(05:18):
had sixty two thousand dollars in consumer debt. And I
realized that month. I was like, oh, dang, I was
we don't actually have enough money to make the bare
minimum payments on all of these things right now. And
I think that started a really big conversation for us
of like, how did we get here?
Speaker 3 (05:33):
What are we doing?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Honestly, from the outste looking in, everything was beautiful. We
traveled all the time we were young, we bought a house, like,
we did everything people tell you this is what you
know American success looks like. But that led us into
such a horrible financial situation, and we were so I
don't know if either of us would use these words,
but we were really ashamed. So we didn't even feel
comfortable talking to our parents about it or other people
(05:56):
in our life who did have financial success, and we
were just kind of like, huh, what do we do now?
Speaker 1 (06:01):
So at that point in time, you had the mortgage
on the house, you had the car, loan and sixty
two thousand dollars of consumer debt on top of that
and not enough to make the minimum payment. So yeah,
that would be that would be a significant wake up call.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah, and we had only been married about two years, right,
And the research is very clear that most marriages end
because of financial strain. Like, it's not affairs, it's not
personality issues.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Most relationships end.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Because they cannot there's too much pressure on the financial
side of things, which influences every area of your life.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
But it sounds like you made the next right decision,
which is it's not just the financial strain, it's about
communicating and working together on it. And you guys managed
to figure out how to do that. How did that
first conversation go?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Oh my god, Marcy, it was awful. It was so awful,
And I think mostly me right, So I think then
a lot of relationships, men are the one with the
ego and the pride. In our marriage, that's not the case.
My husband is a very humble person, he's very kind.
I am also kind, I think, but I am way
more stubborn. And I was raised by a single dad,
(07:11):
so I was raised to be really hyper independent and
I wasn't raised around like emotions. That wasn't something my
dad and I talked about ever. And so my husband
and I had only been together. I mean, we'd been
dating a while, but we'd only been married a couple
of years at this time, and we were, you know,
trying to have this really difficult conversation without any of
the basic skills of even how to have a difficult conversation.
(07:32):
Both of our parents had been divorced multiple times over,
so we had never seen successful relationships.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
We didn't even know.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
How to have a hard conversation at all, let alone
one about money. And so when we were sitting there,
you know, I think he was really willing, and I
saw it in his face. He had so much panic,
and I think partially because he my husband works in
broadcast journalism, so he was running TV shows at the time,
and he had honestly gotten really lucky after college. I
would say, he met a lot of the right people,
(07:58):
got brought in on a lot of really good TV shows,
and kind of overnight, one of his larger TV shows
got canceled. And so, you know, I mean, full transparency,
our problem was not making money. We were making a
lot of money that month that we had this conversation,
he made over twenty thousand dollars that month in TV income.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
So money was not the problem.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Our relationship around money, our communication around money, how we
spent money, those were the problems, right, which I think
is true for most people. And so we were sitting
there and he's, you know, kind of panicking in panic mode,
and I am a very stoic person. So mine was
more like, we just have to figure this out, you know,
we have to figure out the solutions. Like I don't
believe I'm the smartest person in the world, but I
believe I can find the smartest person in the world.
(08:38):
And so I was like, let's figure this out. Let's
use the internet. Let's like, let's find the solution. I
don't know if we actually did or not. I think
we just stumbled across enough people who had gone on
a debt freedom journey. We're willing to share some of
their information and full transparency. Looking back, I don't necessarily
know if I would duplicate exactly what we did before,
but I am appreciative of, you know, the information out there,
(08:59):
like the snow of fact. Dave Ramsey, I don't fully
agree with all of those things at this point in
my life now, but I'm grateful I was had access
to that information then. So we just kind of started
finding these little bits and pieces of info and we
were like, okay, well, like what's the worst case scenario?
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Right, Like, we were.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
In such a bad situation that we were like, well,
it can't get worse, like unless we take out a
second mortgage or we decided to buy another car, Like,
this cannot get worse.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
So all these tools in theory can only help us.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
That makes sense, And that's got to be hard when
he's coming from, as you said, his mom was divorced
multiple times, so he wouldn't know you have hard conversations.
His experience might be Okay, things are bad, see you buy,
let's start over. And if your dad was always single,
then you wouldn't have seen relationships where those deep conversations
would have even been a consideration. So at that point
(09:50):
in time, I mean, you could have looked into filing
for bankruptcy, but with the income you are making, that
may or may not have even been an option. With
not being able to make the minimums, was it as
bad as that or were you able to actually pay
the minimums? But not much more initially.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Yeah, that's a good question.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
So I think once we actually looked at how much
money we were making, because I think before that conversation
we had no idea. We had started merging our finances,
but not entirely, so we both knew kind of how
much money we were bringing in, but not really and
especially the way that my husband was getting paid with
mostly ten ninety nine work, that's a whole different world
compared to what I was used to, like living in
(10:29):
my employee W two world. So I would say like
at that point when we were actually started looking at
the income, that's kind of when our light went off
that we were like, we do not have an income problem,
which I don't think we actually knew before Marcia. It
was crazy like we literally had no understanding of how
much money we were bringing in because we were just
spending it left and right, and we were never looking
(10:49):
at our checking account either. We were literally just always
using credit cards. I think a lot of people in
my generation got kind of stuck in this like point
mentality that like, you know, we started getting credit cards
at such a young age, and everyone's like, oh, you
get the points and then you get to use the
points for other things, and you just don't make logical
choices because it's so emotional.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
So I think.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
After that when we realized, Okay, we don't have an
income problem, so let's let's figure it out. Where is
the problem. And then we kind of started looking at
just like our calendar and we were like, oh wow,
like we went abroad like four times this year.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
That's not super normal for like a twenty three.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Year old the year you buy a house and the
year that you you know, get a car and all
those things, and so we're like, okay, well, like how
much did that cost?
Speaker 3 (11:32):
And then you know, this is a silly story.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
But the day before that, I mean, this is before
all the horrible things happened with this particular artist, but
this artist was going on tour and we spent like
one thousand dollars on concert tickets to go see him.
And I was like, we have that amount of money,
but we don't. You know, like, if you're going to
go abroad four times, you can't also spend a thousand
dollars on concert tickets unless you're.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Like a millionaire.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
And so I think once we started realizing like, oh,
this is where our money is going. We were able
to move the money to different paces. So we're like, Okay,
maybe this next month, since we're bringing in this much money,
maybe we don't go to concerts and we don't travel,
and maybe we pay down our debt.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Crazy idea with.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
A lot of people, and not even necessarily at the
higher level income that the two of you are bringing in.
But with a lot of people, it's not necessarily the income.
It's the choices of expenses, because there are people, as
I've said multiple times, with strong six digit income, that
are living paycheck to paycheck because they're not mindful of
their expenses and their lifestyle. And I have no idea
(12:35):
where you live, since you said he works with TV
and whatever else, I'm assuming it's probably in California.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Las Vegas, Las Vegas in California before okay, And I don't.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Know how expensive Las Vegas is comparatively, but obviously California
is significantly more expensive. It shows in the incomes. Making
a few hundred thousand there is not the same as
a few hundred thousand. I'm in Metro Detroit. It would
go much further here and still make those vacations. So
those are all It's all part of a balance.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
I think one of the things one of the worksheets
we went through that we had just kind of found
on the internet and through some other folks that are
on a debt free journey was this idea of perceived
luxuries versus necessities. Right, So, I think there's luxuries of
life which I think most people can understand.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
You know, those are Louis batons.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Those are the things that are truly like you don't
need seven hundred dollars shoes, Like that's a want in any.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Situation, right, So that's a luxury. And then a perceived luxury.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
That was an interesting conversation for us because that was
defined as like Netflix, why Fi? Getting my nails done,
like things that I really at that point in my life,
I kid you not, I thought these were necessities. Like
I did not understand a world where I could live
without Netflix or getting my nails done every two.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Weeks, because that was the lifestyle I had become accustomed to.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
But when I really broke it down, and the thing
on the worksheet that really got me, Marci was why Fi.
This really killed me because I was reading through all
these things and I was like, I could logically understand
how Netflix is a luxury, right. I understand there's you know,
third world countries and people don't have access to entertainment
like that, and Americans are spoiled periods.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
So that one made a little more sense to me.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
But the idea of wi fi was so challenging for
me because I worked in a setting where I'm like,
I need Wi Fi. And like I said, my husband
was working mostly ten ninety nine, so we worked from
home a lot, and I was like, he needs.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Wi Fi to do his work.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
But then I really thought about it, and I'm just like,
does he could he go to Starbucks and use free WiFi?
Could he go to a public library? That would be
some pretty big adjustments in our lifestyle, I would say,
But was it possible? Yeah, And when we really started
breaking down our budget, like, yeah, our WiFi bill wasn't
a lot of money, but I mean it was close
to one hundred bucks at the time, and I'm like,
that is kind of a lot of money when you're
(14:42):
trying to figure out how to dig yourself out of
such a big hole. And so when I was thinking
about perceived luxuries, that's what really kind of got I
think both of us, but definitely for myself. Really got
us to start thinking about, like, what are our actual
necessities in life? Food, water, shelter, that's it. Those are
your necessities of life life. And once we started thinking
about it that way, I was like, WHOA, we have
(15:03):
a lot of stuff in our life that are perceived
luxuries that we don't need these.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Things, okay, And so what was the hardest part about
going through that list and seeing all the perceived luxuries
and seeing all the luxuries? So here you are, You've
made this decision, You're going through everything you said. You
know what, We're going to go debt free, So we're
not going to put more on the credit cards. We're
going to focus on paying off the debt, not adding
new debt, not picking up much beyond the necessities. What
(15:31):
was that like and what was the hardest part of it?
Speaker 3 (15:34):
I think both of us would have different answers.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
But since I'm speaking for myself today, so I had
to go down a really intense rabbit hole about some
of my lived trauma. To be honest with you, I
think a lot of people would not correlate those things together.
Money and financial literacy and potential childhood trauma, but for me,
they were really closely tied together. And I stumbled across
this podcast when this woman was talking about shopping addiction
(15:56):
and how it had led her down this like really
crazy debt snowball situation, and it all stemmed from her
feeling like she needed control of something in her life.
And I really really identified with that and it so
then I and I was working with a therapist already
at the time, so I kind of went to my
therapist and I was like, hey, like, you know, my
husband and I are trying to do this debt free thing,
(16:17):
and you know, I don't know if that's gonna work
or whatever, But like I stumbled upon this thing, and
I'm I don't understand my relationship with money. I don't
understand why I'm spending so much money Because my husband
was spending money on stupid things. I was spending money
on everything. Like my husband would go out to eat
three times a day, you know, but like I was
spending money on everything. I was like, I bought a
(16:38):
brand new purse yesterday. I definitely need a brand new
purse today. Like we just got back from Cabo, we
definitely need to go to Costa Rica. Next week, like
I was just anything it literally with money was like
flying out of my hands. And so once I kind
of made that realization, I realized that, like to answer
your question, shopping was the hardest thing for me. My
husband literally took all of my credit cards. He locked
(16:59):
them in a door. I couldn't get them. I think
some people might misinterpret that he wasn't controlling my life.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
This was a choice we made together.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
But as we made that decision, I was like, I
literally cannot trust myself with even having the credit cards
in my wallet. I mean, we did the full blown thing,
you know, we went to cash envelopes. I had to
pay cash when I was getting gas, which was so
freaking difficult, Like nowhere takes cash.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Yeah, they're not set up for that anymore.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
No, no, And I mean ten years ago it was
a little bit better, right, but it was still rough.
So I think that was the hardest thing for me
was really starting to understand why I was making really
stupid choices and being okay with going down that kind
of that mental health journey of realizing like I wasn't
just stupid, I wasn't making bad choice.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
I mean I was making bad choices but it wasn't
for just willing nilly.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
It was because I needed to really work through some
things that had happened in my life and why I
was craving this sense of control so badly in my life,
and why I was choosing to do it in this
particular manner.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
So you did that for seven years where your credit
cards were virtually locked up unless you, I assume, made
a decision to get other this is a necessity and
we don't have cash on hand for a new furnace
or for a car repair or whatever that might have been.
And then you switched. How did that come about? And
what was the hardest part of that?
Speaker 2 (18:11):
So we paid off our consumer debt in our car
and a little under two years, and we were really
vicious about it. You know, it was a lot of money,
and we were just really intensive. You know, I joke
that we just ate like rice and beans and college
students for a couple of years, not hey, hey, not
eating out that that's a lot of money right there
for most people. Starbucks was another really hard one for me.
I love Starbucks. I'm a big coffee girls. Yeah, So
(18:33):
we did that. So after two years, then we still
had our mortgage, but we had already made the decision
we weren't going to aggressively pay off our mortgage.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
We had a good interest, you know, we.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Really we had talked to some people that had more
information than we did, which I think was a key
to our success is we had we talked to people
who were smarter in this area than we were, and
we decided we didn't want to try to pay off.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Our mortgage just yet.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
So then we were like, okay, so we can have
a little bit more of luxury in our life, but
we really wanted to save money. That was our next goal,
and so we had our made the decision, you know,
we were going to try to save about sixty thousand
dollars cash, which felt like insane, that felt like impossible.
So then after a few years we did and so
then we were like, well what now, Now we're just
saving money for the sake of saving money, and that, honestly,
(19:14):
to me, that kind of felt irresponsible. I was like,
I feel like maybe we should be investing this.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
And so then we kind of went on this journey
again of trying to find people that like could help
us figure out like what is the next logical thing.
Do we just do we really just keep stacking up
money in our savings account or do we invest this
in different ways?
Speaker 3 (19:30):
What do we do? And So while we.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Were going on that journey, I was going through some
pretty intense health challenges, and I had some great doctors
and stuff like that, but I really I was really
frustrated with the medical system, and I was like, you
know what, I want to seek out other solutions that
my doctor might not be the one to suggest. Nothing
super crazy, but I was like, I do want other options.
(19:53):
And so I decided we decided as a couple, we
were going to take some of our income and put
it towards that. So I would say that was like
kind of our first decision to like go to debt by.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Choice, and it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
We were still paying cash for things at that point,
but that kind of led us one thing after another
after another. We were like, well, you know, we have
the money now, so like maybe we both want to
go to therapy, maybe we both want to seek out
some holistic options for our health. Maybe we want to
redo our backyard to kind of increase the value of
our home. And so, and we paid cash for all
those things. But then we kind of hit a moment
(20:26):
where our savings was starting to dwindle faster than we
could put it in. And that's when we had to
make a choice where we were like, do we continue
at the rate we were at, where we keep saving money,
saving money, saving money, or do we change our relationship
with debt. And so that was kind of the conversation
we started in the last year or so, which was honestly,
I think that was actually harder than our decision to
(20:46):
go debt free in the first place, because we had
basically like completely trained our brain that debt was so
bad and that debt could not be good, which, knowing
what I know about finances now, I'm like, that's not
entirely true. I think it to your point, it goes
about like how do you communicate with each other, how
do you communicate with yourself about money? And so we
(21:07):
really had to rewire our brains. We kind of joke
a lot that we had like brainwashed ourself that debt
was such a bad thing, and we had to rebrainwash
ourselves that that debt was okay at a manageable rate
and for good things. So, for example, we decided we
were going to invest in a business this year, and
so we had to take out a pretty big business loan,
and that is debt.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
You know.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
However, people want to say that is debt, but we
were like, that's to us. Everyone's different, but to us,
we're like, that's good debt, Like we want to have
this other option in our future. We wanted to invest
in a business. We already knew that.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
We did all this.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Research, so we're like, that's good debt test, that's okay.
And then I think the harder things kind of came
in is when we started to talk about, like the
value of our life is how we word it. So
it's like, you know, traveling or you know, my dad
is going to be seventy five in the next couple
of years and we want to take them on a
big trip, and like could we pay cash? We could,
(22:04):
but is that the right choice. I'm not sure where
the economy is right now.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
Cash is king.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
It's good to have some savings, but also, I don't
want to stop living my life. I felt like on
our debt free journey, we really did stop living our
life because we were in such a rush to pay
off our debt, which is good and it is valuable,
but that wasn't how I wanted to live my life
long term.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
That makes sense, Jenna, So you talked about having this
money and having debt. If it's not too personal, I
assume you guys have retirement savings that you are investing
in that that's just not talked about because that's paying
yourself first. It's off to the side, it's doing its
work for retirement, and so it's not part of the
(22:46):
debt or debt conversation.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
That's a really good question, So yes, all that is correct.
I'm also grateful that I work for an employer that
has a really aggressive four oh and K matching. I've
also been with my employer for a long time, but
this is also something that we had to make. The
decision is I started getting job offers at other places
that the salaries were way better, but the benefits, including
(23:10):
the four oh one K and the retirement were not,
And so I had to make some hard choices in
my career where I chose to stay where I'm at
partially because of the retirement and the four to one
K matching. And I think that's something that a lot
of people my age don't actually even understand. Let alone
make choices around And again, I think I value education
(23:31):
a lot, I really do it, and I mean all
forms of education, not just obviously I'm a professor at
a university, but like I value all forms of education.
I think you can learn from anyone that has more
experience in something than you do. And so, throughout every
part of our financial literacy journey, I was reaching out
to people being like, what do you know that I
don't know? How can you help me? And so when
I was making decisions around my career, my cousin is
(23:53):
in a CPA actually for a big organization, and I
had reached out to him because I trust him and
I respect him and he has made a lot of
really good financial decisions in his life. And I was like, hey,
what do you think do you think I should leave
for this other job? And he actually, he is so smart.
But he walked me through this process of putting a
dollar value on everything. My employer was giving me, everything
(24:13):
from my sick days to my PTO to my four
oh one K and he had me put an hourly
dollar value on it and then add that up in
comparison to the offer letter I was getting. And he
was like there's no comparison. He was like, you're making
so much more in your current job if you add
up everything in comparison to what this other offer is
giving you. And so I think that helped as well.
(24:34):
I'm humble enough to understand that I do not know everything,
and I'm also smart enough to be able to ask
someone that I know knows more than me and be like,
please help me, because I don't know what I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Jenna, that is so smart. I'm continually advising people find someone,
whether it's an educated mentor or a financial professional, who
can help you get more information to make the decision
that's right for you. I think my podcast and the
other things that I put out there are great for
general information, but I'm not looking at your checkbook, your
(25:08):
text return, your credit card, debt you or anything. Everything
that I give is just a starting point.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Well, and I think that's I love that you said
that too, because money is so personal, right I obviously
I work with college age students, and I'm very open
obviously about my debt free journey. Well, ask me a
lot about like how I made those choices and what
process did I use and who did I follow? And
I'm very honest about the process that worked well for us.
(25:34):
But I'm also honest with people that it worked for us,
that doesn't mean it's going to work for them.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
My husband and I also have a super unique relationship.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
I mean we really are like best friends and we've
kind of grown up together. We started dating when I
was nineteen, and so, like, our relationship is really different
than other peoples, and so I'm really honest with folks
that you know, this is what's worked for us. But like, yeah,
I think you're spot on. And I always get nervous
sometimes when people ask about like who do they listen
to and comes to financial advice, and I'm like, honestly,
(26:02):
like you like yourself, Like, yeah, you need to find
some information that's gonna help you in that journey. But
unless you're willing to actually open up your bank account
in front of another human being, which I do think
that's kind of the level of openness you have to
have in order to really be honest about your finances.
But you have to be willing to be that vulnerable
with someone, and it is it's hard. I mean, our
world teaches us that like money is such a really
(26:25):
secretive thing that no one talks about and I mean
even I when I was going on this journey, I
would ask a lot of my friends like, Hey, do
you do you and your partner talk about this? Or
do you and your spouse share financial information? Or do
you guys have a shared savings account? And most of
them were like no, like we don't talk about money
like this is this, this is this, And I'm like, okay,
And to each their own, I mean, everyone's allowed to
(26:45):
do whatever they want in their relationships, but I was like,
that's not how my husband and I wanted our relationship
with each other in money. We wanted to make sure
there was honesty, clarity, and that we both knew like
the road we were going down that you know, these
were our goals for our life, like we were always
honest with each other that This is my opinion, but
I don't think, you know, one singular four to oh
(27:06):
one K for a person is going to be enough
in the next forty or fifty years. You could have
a really aggressive one. I still don't think it's going
to be enough money. The way that inflation is going,
it's going to be difficult for my generation to have
enough money to retire, and so I do think you
need to diversify in a lot of ways, and my
husband and I were really open with each other about
what that could look like and looking into different options.
(27:28):
And I think that helped us a lot too, is
just being open to trying to figure out other choices
that would work for our future, knowing that that was
our end result that we did want to be able
to retire one day.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Right, And I have mentioned this before, whether you are
going to have a joint checking account and joint credit cards,
or you're each going to have your own if you
are in a marriage, if you are in a partnership relationship,
you still have to communicate. You have to know where
each other's goals are, what it is you're working for,
because if you got two people in a boat rowing
(28:02):
in their own directions, the boat's not going anywhere. And
the goal is that you have a common goal that
you're working toward it together in whatever way works best
for you.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Yeah, I mean I think that's really really wise advice.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Well, thank you, I try. Your husband is a ten
ninety nine worker.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Still, you're tagging a lot of interesting comments here, so yeah,
but this was one of our decisions, right, Is that
he could make a lot more money in the long
term staying in ten ninety nine, but we decided we
wanted the stability of normal employment at least for a
little while. We did this when we were going debt free.
He's now kind of dabbling back into ten ninety nine,
(28:42):
but he still has a full time, normal job right now.
And I think that was a big decision for us,
because I think a lot of times, especially early in
our lives, we were chasing money. We really were like
I mean, we were doing things we loved and careers
that we really enjoyed, but if someone offered us more
money or a bigger salary or bigger commission bonus, we
(29:02):
were like, oh, le, let's look at that option. And
I think we came to a place where we realized,
most of the time, if they're offering you that kind
of money, there's a reason. And so one of the
decisions my husband and I made is that, you know,
a lot of people in his industry travel a lot
for their jobs, and he had the opportunity really early
in his career working for a man who is arguably
one of the biggest names in his industry. But he
(29:25):
traveled all the time and he never saw his family.
And I remember one day my husband was like, I
just don't want that to be our life. He was like,
I mean, kudos to them that they make that work,
but he was like, I don't want to miss you
all the time. And he was like, I want to
be with you. And so he turned down a lot
of jobs and a lot of really cool gigs and
a lot of things that I think would have excelled
him in his career exponentially so that he didn't have
(29:47):
to travel all the time for work and very similar
It's not uncommon in my industry for people to move
universities often to be able to move up the ladder,
and I chose not to do that so that we
could build a life in Las Vegas, and I think
that we're both really grateful for that. That was a
hard choice for us, though, because the money start did
look appealing.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
It does, and what people aren't always aware of with
ten ninety nine income is you typically have zero benefits.
You have zero commitment of stability and continued I can't
say employment, but continued financial relationship. You have to pay
your own taxes, so either you're making quarterly estimates or
(30:26):
you're figuring out some other way to pay it timely
so you don't end up with penalties and interest from
the IRS when you file your tax returns, and in
addition to the penalty and interest, finding that money for
the cash at that point in time when the taxes
are due.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
So, yeah, you have to you're preaching to the choir here.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Well, yeah, you learned a hard lesson or a good lesson,
because for a lot of people, that is the right
way to do things.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
I just love what you're doing here because I wish
there was more open, honest conversation about those things, even
not le It's it seems like a tiny decision to me now,
but I know in the moment it didn't feel that way.
Of the decision between a W two and a ten
ninety nine, Like that's a hard choice for a lot
of people, I think, especially nowadays. I think the younger
generation is really pitched this idea that like ten ninety
nine equals freedom, that you get to like be wherever
(31:15):
you want and do whatever you want. And that's kind
of true, but it's also not and it comes with
all those other things you talked about. But I think
even when he even when he got his first big contract.
We had no idea about the taxes thing. We had
no idea that they weren't taking money out for taxes.
And so the first year when our tax bill came around,
and thankfully we always did our taxes early, so we
always did them in like January, so we had a
(31:36):
couple months buffer. But our first tax bill was like
I don't even want to say the number. It was
so big, and I just remember us staring at him
being like, wait, we have to come up with as
much money like that was that possible?
Speaker 3 (31:47):
And we did, but it was.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
I mean, it really did feel impossible, and I'm grateful
we had that like three months instead of some people
to do their taxes in April. I think I would
have had an actual panic attack. But that was one
of the things that after that. I remember we were
like googling it and we were like, why do we
owe so much money? And then it like very obviously
first thing was like because ten ninety nine, don't take
out taxes, you have to do it yourself, and we're
(32:09):
like why did no one tell us that? And then
I and then it kind of you know, just the
way my logical brain works I'm like, well, is that
really your employer's job to tell you, like, hey, this
is how we're paying you and you need to pay
attention to your taxes, Like that's not their job, Like
they're not my mom, Like that's my job to be
an adult.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Well yeah, but it's not something you necessarily learn. And
if no one tells you, you don't know. I've had
clients throughout the years that have had both W two
and ten ninety nine income and at the end of
the year they have a large tax bill and they're like,
why is this Well, you either have to pay estimates
or you have to increase the withholding on your W
two job. I can do that, yes, well how much, Well,
(32:47):
I don't know. Based on this amount and this income,
this is the target number you want to hit with
your withholding. Go to your human resources or your payroll department,
whatever it is for your company, and say figure it
out so that I've got this much paid in at
the end of the year. And they're typically very happy
to work with you. Human resources, payroll, accounting departments, whatever
they are at the company you work for. If your
(33:10):
withholding is too high or too low, or too whatever,
talk to them and they'll help you figure it out
so that your money is going where you want it
to go, because one that's their job and two it
doesn't cost them anything extra to help you do this.
The company does not lose out on anything based on
how much of your money you use for taxes and
how much goes in your pocket. So talk to these people.
(33:32):
This goes back I think Jenna too, you saying to
find the people to talk to, find your expert who
can help you figure stuff out, because that's what they're
there for.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Yeah, And I think that really was something really important,
really vital for me when we're making our decision to
go debt by choice. Was my therapist that when at
that time my husband and I were seeing the same
therapists but individually, and I think that she was so
helpful for us because she lived her life in such
an authentic way that she was always traveling and doing
fun things and very fiscally responsible as well, and was
(34:06):
willing to kind of talk about that with us. But
that was one of the things that I found to
be really valuable, is that she continuously was talking about
how she was using money to fund the life that
she wanted to live.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
And I felt like.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
That was so valuable to me that I really did
feel like I was kind of in these golden handcuffs
at that time that I had kind of given myself
this stamp of like I am a debt free person
and I have to live that way for the rest
of my life, even though that didn't feel like it
was serving me anymore, like I won't lie to anyone,
Like when I was getting debt free, that did feel
like it was serving me, because I felt like at
(34:39):
that point, I feel like the debt was checking me alive,
Like it was terrifying to owe that much.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Money and not know where you're paying it, and it
was awful.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
To the flip side, I think living in a way
where you are making income and you are making smart choices,
but you're not doing anything that you deem to be fun,
that's not really healthy either. And so once I kind
of started changing that nar in my head of like
like you can and I'm not saying like I'm not
taking on massive amounts of debt now, I'm trying to
be smart about it, but also being like, well, what
(35:08):
what is going to add value to my life this year? Like,
you know, my husband's grandpa's turning ninety this year. He
lives in Peru, and it's a big expense for us
to go to Peru for his birthday. But I was like, well,
that's kind of a one in the lifetime experience. I mean,
like I don't know how much longer his grandpa has left.
I mean, ninety is pretty good, I would say. And
(35:28):
we've never been to Peru. Well, I mean my husband
did when he was young, but it was so long ago,
and so I was like, you know, that feels like
that's one of those life moments that I'm like, that's
worth it to me and still have a plan of
how we're going to pay it off and be smart
about it. But also like, yeah, that feels like that's
a good choice.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
It's so important to be intentional. I'm not a fan
of the financial advisors, financial literacy advisors, speakers, whatever, who say,
you know, no more Starbucks ever. You can't have a Starbucks,
you can't have a this, you can't have a that.
Every dollar must go into savings, must go into investing,
must go into whatever. You have to find that balance
(36:07):
and for every person it's going to be different. Just
like there is no magic number I can't say, well,
if you're forty years old, you need this much for retirement,
and if you're fifty years old, you should plan to
have this much for retirement, because it's not that easy.
Everyone has a different lifestyle. If your plan in retirement
is that you're going to travel a lot, your number
four retirement is going to be bigger than someone who
(36:28):
is going to stay at home and take care of
their grandchildren or do volunteer work or whatever else. And
that's fine, there is nothing wrong with it. It's just
this is what you need to retire, and this is
what they need to retire. If these are the things
in life that truly are your necessities, and maybe that's
a once a month manicure as opposed to a weekly manicure,
(36:50):
or a once a week Starbucks instead of twice a
day Starbucks, whatever it is. We need to find those
joy things in life because otherwise, what are we working
looking for? What kind of point point?
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (37:03):
And I think that that is. I think that there's
so much that now that I've gone through my debt
free journey that I'm I don't know, maybe I truly
I kind of disagree with it, Like I agree with
the idea of living debt free. I think it is
a very peaceful way to live. I will be honest
with folks about that. But I also believe that there
is a lot of narrative in the debt free community
(37:24):
around making hard choices and living a really minimalistic lifestyle,
which there's nothing wrong with that. If that's your cup
of tea, that is definitely not my cup of tea, Marcy,
it really is not. I don't actually even like tea.
That is not my cup of coffee. It really isn't.
And that was one of the things that when we
had gotten debt free, I was like one of the
very first things I was like, I want to get
(37:45):
my dang manicures back in my life because I and
it sounds so silly, but to me, that was like
a really important confidence statement for me. You know, that
was an important moment. That was all like, I don't
love the word self care. I think it's overused, but
that was version of that is that, you know, it
was my space where I could go and I could
sit and be taken care of in a life where
(38:06):
like I take care of a lot of things and
a lot of people. So it's nice to have that
time for me. And so although I understand why I
made that choice when I was getting debt free not
to get my manicures for two years, I also don't.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
Know if I'd actually do that again.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Like I think if I could go back, I would
maybe be okay with it taking two and a half
or three years to pay off my debt and still
being able to have that one thing that was so
valuable to me. And even now, like I don't get
Starbucks every day, I try to limit it to it
once a week.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
I try, but you.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Know, I've also created this little like mini Starbucks in
my own house where I make my own little iced
coffee and I have my bougie little creamers and my
little stirstick And it's so fun for me though, and
I love it so much. So it probably is the
same amount of money as going to Starbucks at this
point in time, but whatever, I have found so much
joy in those things that it's worth the money that
I exchange for the amount of happiness it brings me.
(38:58):
And I think that's something that the debt free can
unity really loses, is that they don't think about exactly
what you said. It's like what is the point of
working if not to spend some of the money. Like, yes,
we need to be smart and take care of ourselves,
but like part of it is to be able to
enjoy your life and in whatever way that means to you.
So I think that that's something that I really learned
with our debt by choice lifestyle as well, is that
(39:21):
I'm not going to be stupid about my money. I'm
not going to spend it willy nilly on everything, but
I'm also not gonna not spend it either. If I
want a cup of coffee, I'm gonna buy a damn
cup of coffee. I work hard, and I work a lot,
and that makes me happy, and if that makes me happy, amazing.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
I think it's wonderful that you and your husband found
the balance that you guys needed for your financial journey
to make sense. You know, you learned a lot of
lessons the hard way, but you learn them and that
just means continuing to go forward, that you get this
intentionality as just part of your lifestyle. You have these conversations, Okay,
(39:58):
we want to do this is something that we say, Okay,
we'll take the debt and we'll make a plan to
pay it off. Is this something that we say, Okay,
we're gonna cut back on XYZ so that we can
do this and move forward. Those conversations are so important
to the relationship. And as we said before about relationships
and money, I don't think it's always about the money.
(40:19):
It's about the lack of communication about whatever the money
situation is and.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
The emotions that go with it. Oh great that I think.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
I think some people are actually okay being like, hey, like,
I see this a lot. And actually some of my
peers that you know, they're okay with being like, hey,
we're not allowed to spend any more money this month
because we're saving up for Hawaii. But then they don't share, like, hey,
that makes me feel that, you know, we're not living
our life in alignment with our values, or that makes
me feel like you're telling me what to do with
(40:49):
my money, or that makes me feel like my input
into our household is not valued because I'm not bringing
an income or whatever.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
It is.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Like, I feel like the emotional side of money and
in relationships in general. I mean, my podcast is on
emotional leadership, so I think about emotions a lot. But
that's something I think about, is that we need to
do better about being able to express how something makes
us feel, what is the emotion behind it. So I
think that's something that my husband and I really learned
through this journey is that, yeah, it's important for us
(41:18):
to say like, hey, I'm feeling stressed out because we
don't have enough money this month, or or you know,
I just had a really big moment in my career
and I did this cool keynote speaking thing and I
told him, I was like, I really want to go celebrate,
like I feel like this was a moment in my
career and I want to celebrate this moment. And he
was like, awesome, what do you want? Like do you
want an expensive dinner on the strip?
Speaker 3 (41:38):
Like what do you want to do? And I was
like I want Taco Bell and he was like, okay,
let's get you some Taco Bell.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
But you know, it's that thing because I think most
people equate success in celebration with expensive and we really
changed that relationship that like I was feeling like I
wanted to celebrate because I did something that excited me.
That doesn't mean I need a five hundred dollars dinner.
That means I want to do something that values the
hard work I put in, and I want to spend
(42:04):
some time with my husband while I do it. To
me on that moment, that meant a twenty nine dollars
taco bell meal.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Okay, that's a lot of taco bell in Vegas?
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Do they my husband can eat so much? That actually
is alcohol? It our taco bells?
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Oh, okay, that must be a Vegas thing? It is?
It so is? I don't know what goes well with
a dorito loco taco.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
A baja blast with tequila.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Okay, good to know, Jenna. I have so much appreciated
this time with you. Have you got anything you'd like
to share before we end?
Speaker 2 (42:37):
I just want to say thank you for letting me
share a little bit of my journey and the important
work I think you're doing. I do think these are
important conversations, and I'm grateful that you're having them, especially
someone with such incredible experience in your own career.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
So I really appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
And maybe as people are listening to this podcast, if
they feel like they also need some advice in leadership
and they're like, hey, now I'm making the money and
I need to figure out how to up in my career.
Then head over to my podcast Tearing Up My Heart
and I can help you with the other side of that.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
I will be sharing a link to Jenna's podcast in
the show notes. And I believe I am guessing on
your podcast in the near future.
Speaker 3 (43:13):
You are, I'm so excited.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
I am too. I have no idea where the conversation
will go, but I know it's gonna be fun.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
It will be okay.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Well, thank you so much Jenna for being my guest listeners.
Thank you so much for coming by and sharing your
time with us. This is money, Marcy, and thank you
for listening to Marcie talks money and life. You got this,
Siya
Powered by Riverside n Hello, Welcome to Marcie talks Money
in Life. I'm Money Marcy. I appreciate this opportunity to
meet interesting people who are able and willing to share
their stories about their financial journeys. My guest today is
Jenna Heath. Jenna is a talented communicator, educator, and professional
(00:24):
connector of people. She received her Bachelor of Arts and
Communication and Political Science from San Diego State University and
her master's in Education from University of Nevada, Las Vegas.
After graduating, she meandered through many different career fields such
as startups, fitness, nonprofits, fundraising, food and beverage before landing
(00:46):
in higher education. She is deeply committed to training the
next generation of leaders utilizing a wide variety of mediums
or Leadership extends to teaching, and she is an adjunct
faculty member at University of Nevada, Las Vegas, Vada State University,
and the University of Denver, where she instructs courses on
leadership development and career readiness. She launched her podcast Tearing
(01:09):
Up My Heart Emotional Leadership Lessons in twenty twenty four
with the goal of helping listeners to understand the emotional
side of leadership and making education accessible to those that
might not be able to afford traditional schooling. I could
go on and on, but let's welcome Jenna.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Thanks for having Mercia. I'm excited to chat with you today.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Well, I'm so excited to chat with you. I have
people fill out a form when they're going to be
my guest and tell me areas they'd like to talk about,
and Jenna's was debt Free to debt by Choice, which
I think is fascinating and I can't wait to hear
the stories behind it. And as someone with the background
that you have, I know there's so much stories and
(01:51):
information to share and I'm really excited about it.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Well, thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, I feel like I have a really kind of
a hot take on debt freedom living, so I'm really
excited for the opportunity to share a little bit more,
especially just all the great information that you're sharing on
your podcast and your career, Like you are definitely an
expert in this space, so I figure I can learn
a little bit from you as well.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Oh, thank you. So I guess from your story what
I got was that you and your husband some reason
decided to go debt free and that lasted for seven years.
So I guess I'm going to back up a little bit.
And before you got married, obviously, for both of you,
you had financial lessons you learned I assume at home
growing up or the lack thereof or lack there of.
(02:32):
Fair enough, were the both of you in the same situation.
Did you come from relatively similar backgrounds and information or
did you come from different places and had to find
a way to meet.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Well, that's such a good question. Totally different spaces. So
we were both for the most part, raised by single
parents who were in really different spaces of their life.
My dad adopted me when he was forty, so he
was very well established in his career and definitely, I
would say had a comfortable middle class life style. But
I also was raised in a home where, like we
didn't talk about money. I knew my dad did well
(03:05):
in his career. He was an air traft controller, he
worked for the federal government. He was in the military first,
and so I knew my dad, you know, was going
to be able to take care of me, and I
never questioned that. My husband, on the other hand, was
raised by a single mom who was working her way
up in food and BEV was not making a lot
of money. They cohabitated a lot with his grandparents and
there was a lot of shared living spaces and he
(03:27):
was always taken care of, there was never any question
about that. But he definitely didn't live I guess in
the state of comfortability that I grew up in. And
so we got married really young. I was twenty three
when we got married, so when we were definitely still
figuring it out, we had just graduated from college, and
we graduated in college right after the eight recession, so
not exactly the best time to be launching a career,
(03:48):
I would say.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
And it was weird.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
You know, it's so weird for couples to start merging
finances in general. That's such an odd thing that no
one really teaches you how to do, let alone how
to do.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
It well, or if you want to.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Right now, I think a lot more couples are not
merging finances, which more power to them. Husband and I
didn't really we didn't come from the same background. We
didn't have the same knowledge on financial literacy. I would
actually say neither of us had knowledge on financial literacy.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
But the way our.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Families talked about money was really different, and I think
it was really difficult for us. So when we got married,
bought a house, like we did everything the world tells
you you're supposed to do. We went to college, we
graduated from college, we bought a house immediately we got married,
and we just literally were kind of like figuring it
out as we go. And there I was. I was
about twenty five when we started our debt free journey,
(04:36):
and it really was an essence at like a necessity
in our life. At that point that I had finished
my masters, we had no school debt, so kudos to us,
Like we had a bunch of scholarships and gritin aids,
so we don't have any student loans anything like that.
So that's one thing we did, right, I guess. But
after that, when I finished my masters, we started accumulating
just a ton of consumer debt, Like we bought a
(04:58):
car that was way too expensive that we couldn't afford.
We had just bought a house, so we were trying
to fix everything in the house and buy furniture and
all these things. And again, no one really taught us
about saving money, so we didn't have any money saved
up so we were just literally throwing everything on credit cards,
and then all of a sudden one day we were
you know, just I guess, kind of sitting down and
being like, oh, we should pay our bills. And we
(05:18):
had sixty two thousand dollars in consumer debt. And I
realized that month. I was like, oh, dang, I was
we don't actually have enough money to make the bare
minimum payments on all of these things right now. And
I think that started a really big conversation for us
of like, how did we get here?
Speaker 3 (05:33):
What are we doing?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Honestly, from the outste looking in, everything was beautiful. We
traveled all the time we were young, we bought a house, like,
we did everything people tell you this is what you
know American success looks like. But that led us into
such a horrible financial situation, and we were so I
don't know if either of us would use these words,
but we were really ashamed. So we didn't even feel
comfortable talking to our parents about it or other people
(05:56):
in our life who did have financial success, and we
were just kind of like, huh, what do we do now?
Speaker 1 (06:01):
So at that point in time, you had the mortgage
on the house, you had the car, loan and sixty
two thousand dollars of consumer debt on top of that
and not enough to make the minimum payment. So yeah,
that would be that would be a significant wake up call.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah, and we had only been married about two years, right,
And the research is very clear that most marriages end
because of financial strain. Like, it's not affairs, it's not
personality issues.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Most relationships end.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Because they cannot there's too much pressure on the financial
side of things, which influences every area of your life.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
But it sounds like you made the next right decision,
which is it's not just the financial strain, it's about
communicating and working together on it. And you guys managed
to figure out how to do that. How did that
first conversation go?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Oh my god, Marcy, it was awful. It was so awful,
And I think mostly me right, So I think then
a lot of relationships, men are the one with the
ego and the pride. In our marriage, that's not the case.
My husband is a very humble person, he's very kind.
I am also kind, I think, but I am way
more stubborn. And I was raised by a single dad,
(07:11):
so I was raised to be really hyper independent and
I wasn't raised around like emotions. That wasn't something my
dad and I talked about ever. And so my husband
and I had only been together. I mean, we'd been
dating a while, but we'd only been married a couple
of years at this time, and we were, you know,
trying to have this really difficult conversation without any of
the basic skills of even how to have a difficult conversation.
(07:32):
Both of our parents had been divorced multiple times over,
so we had never seen successful relationships.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
We didn't even know.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
How to have a hard conversation at all, let alone
one about money. And so when we were sitting there,
you know, I think he was really willing, and I
saw it in his face. He had so much panic,
and I think partially because he my husband works in
broadcast journalism, so he was running TV shows at the time,
and he had honestly gotten really lucky after college. I
would say, he met a lot of the right people,
(07:58):
got brought in on a lot of really good TV shows,
and kind of overnight, one of his larger TV shows
got canceled. And so, you know, I mean, full transparency,
our problem was not making money. We were making a
lot of money that month that we had this conversation,
he made over twenty thousand dollars that month in TV income.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
So money was not the problem.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Our relationship around money, our communication around money, how we
spent money, those were the problems, right, which I think
is true for most people. And so we were sitting
there and he's, you know, kind of panicking in panic mode,
and I am a very stoic person. So mine was
more like, we just have to figure this out, you know,
we have to figure out the solutions. Like I don't
believe I'm the smartest person in the world, but I
believe I can find the smartest person in the world.
(08:38):
And so I was like, let's figure this out. Let's
use the internet. Let's like, let's find the solution. I
don't know if we actually did or not. I think
we just stumbled across enough people who had gone on
a debt freedom journey. We're willing to share some of
their information and full transparency. Looking back, I don't necessarily
know if I would duplicate exactly what we did before,
but I am appreciative of, you know, the information out there,
(08:59):
like the snow of fact. Dave Ramsey, I don't fully
agree with all of those things at this point in
my life now, but I'm grateful I was had access
to that information then. So we just kind of started
finding these little bits and pieces of info and we
were like, okay, well, like what's the worst case scenario?
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Right, Like, we were.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
In such a bad situation that we were like, well,
it can't get worse, like unless we take out a
second mortgage or we decided to buy another car, Like,
this cannot get worse.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
So all these tools in theory can only help us.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
That makes sense, And that's got to be hard when
he's coming from, as you said, his mom was divorced
multiple times, so he wouldn't know you have hard conversations.
His experience might be Okay, things are bad, see you buy,
let's start over. And if your dad was always single,
then you wouldn't have seen relationships where those deep conversations
would have even been a consideration. So at that point
(09:50):
in time, I mean, you could have looked into filing
for bankruptcy, but with the income you are making, that
may or may not have even been an option. With
not being able to make the minimums, was it as
bad as that or were you able to actually pay
the minimums? But not much more initially.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Yeah, that's a good question.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
So I think once we actually looked at how much
money we were making, because I think before that conversation
we had no idea. We had started merging our finances,
but not entirely, so we both knew kind of how
much money we were bringing in, but not really and
especially the way that my husband was getting paid with
mostly ten ninety nine work, that's a whole different world
compared to what I was used to, like living in
(10:29):
my employee W two world. So I would say like
at that point when we were actually started looking at
the income, that's kind of when our light went off
that we were like, we do not have an income problem,
which I don't think we actually knew before Marcia. It
was crazy like we literally had no understanding of how
much money we were bringing in because we were just
spending it left and right, and we were never looking
(10:49):
at our checking account either. We were literally just always
using credit cards. I think a lot of people in
my generation got kind of stuck in this like point
mentality that like, you know, we started getting credit cards
at such a young age, and everyone's like, oh, you
get the points and then you get to use the
points for other things, and you just don't make logical
choices because it's so emotional.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
So I think.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
After that when we realized, Okay, we don't have an
income problem, so let's let's figure it out. Where is
the problem. And then we kind of started looking at
just like our calendar and we were like, oh wow,
like we went abroad like four times this year.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
That's not super normal for like a twenty three.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Year old the year you buy a house and the
year that you you know, get a car and all
those things, and so we're like, okay, well, like how
much did that cost?
Speaker 3 (11:32):
And then you know, this is a silly story.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
But the day before that, I mean, this is before
all the horrible things happened with this particular artist, but
this artist was going on tour and we spent like
one thousand dollars on concert tickets to go see him.
And I was like, we have that amount of money,
but we don't. You know, like, if you're going to
go abroad four times, you can't also spend a thousand
dollars on concert tickets unless you're.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Like a millionaire.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
And so I think once we started realizing like, oh,
this is where our money is going. We were able
to move the money to different paces. So we're like, Okay,
maybe this next month, since we're bringing in this much money,
maybe we don't go to concerts and we don't travel,
and maybe we pay down our debt.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Crazy idea with.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
A lot of people, and not even necessarily at the
higher level income that the two of you are bringing in.
But with a lot of people, it's not necessarily the income.
It's the choices of expenses, because there are people, as
I've said multiple times, with strong six digit income, that
are living paycheck to paycheck because they're not mindful of
their expenses and their lifestyle. And I have no idea
(12:35):
where you live, since you said he works with TV
and whatever else, I'm assuming it's probably in California.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Las Vegas, Las Vegas in California before okay, And I don't.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Know how expensive Las Vegas is comparatively, but obviously California
is significantly more expensive. It shows in the incomes. Making
a few hundred thousand there is not the same as
a few hundred thousand. I'm in Metro Detroit. It would
go much further here and still make those vacations. So
those are all It's all part of a balance.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
I think one of the things one of the worksheets
we went through that we had just kind of found
on the internet and through some other folks that are
on a debt free journey was this idea of perceived
luxuries versus necessities. Right, So, I think there's luxuries of
life which I think most people can understand.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
You know, those are Louis batons.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Those are the things that are truly like you don't
need seven hundred dollars shoes, Like that's a want in any.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Situation, right, So that's a luxury. And then a perceived luxury.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
That was an interesting conversation for us because that was
defined as like Netflix, why Fi? Getting my nails done,
like things that I really at that point in my life,
I kid you not, I thought these were necessities. Like
I did not understand a world where I could live
without Netflix or getting my nails done every two.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Weeks, because that was the lifestyle I had become accustomed to.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
But when I really broke it down, and the thing
on the worksheet that really got me, Marci was why Fi.
This really killed me because I was reading through all
these things and I was like, I could logically understand
how Netflix is a luxury, right. I understand there's you know,
third world countries and people don't have access to entertainment
like that, and Americans are spoiled periods.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
So that one made a little more sense to me.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
But the idea of wi fi was so challenging for
me because I worked in a setting where I'm like,
I need Wi Fi. And like I said, my husband
was working mostly ten ninety nine, so we worked from
home a lot, and I was like, he needs.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Wi Fi to do his work.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
But then I really thought about it, and I'm just like,
does he could he go to Starbucks and use free WiFi?
Could he go to a public library? That would be
some pretty big adjustments in our lifestyle, I would say,
But was it possible? Yeah, And when we really started
breaking down our budget, like, yeah, our WiFi bill wasn't
a lot of money, but I mean it was close
to one hundred bucks at the time, and I'm like,
that is kind of a lot of money when you're
(14:42):
trying to figure out how to dig yourself out of
such a big hole. And so when I was thinking
about perceived luxuries, that's what really kind of got I
think both of us, but definitely for myself. Really got
us to start thinking about, like, what are our actual
necessities in life? Food, water, shelter, that's it. Those are
your necessities of life life. And once we started thinking
about it that way, I was like, WHOA, we have
(15:03):
a lot of stuff in our life that are perceived
luxuries that we don't need these.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Things, okay, And so what was the hardest part about
going through that list and seeing all the perceived luxuries
and seeing all the luxuries? So here you are, You've
made this decision, You're going through everything you said. You
know what, We're going to go debt free, So we're
not going to put more on the credit cards. We're
going to focus on paying off the debt, not adding
new debt, not picking up much beyond the necessities. What
(15:31):
was that like and what was the hardest part of it?
Speaker 3 (15:34):
I think both of us would have different answers.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
But since I'm speaking for myself today, so I had
to go down a really intense rabbit hole about some
of my lived trauma. To be honest with you, I
think a lot of people would not correlate those things together.
Money and financial literacy and potential childhood trauma, but for me,
they were really closely tied together. And I stumbled across
this podcast when this woman was talking about shopping addiction
(15:56):
and how it had led her down this like really
crazy debt snowball situation, and it all stemmed from her
feeling like she needed control of something in her life.
And I really really identified with that and it so
then I and I was working with a therapist already
at the time, so I kind of went to my
therapist and I was like, hey, like, you know, my
husband and I are trying to do this debt free thing,
(16:17):
and you know, I don't know if that's gonna work
or whatever, But like I stumbled upon this thing, and
I'm I don't understand my relationship with money. I don't
understand why I'm spending so much money Because my husband
was spending money on stupid things. I was spending money
on everything. Like my husband would go out to eat
three times a day, you know, but like I was
spending money on everything. I was like, I bought a
(16:38):
brand new purse yesterday. I definitely need a brand new
purse today. Like we just got back from Cabo, we
definitely need to go to Costa Rica. Next week, like
I was just anything it literally with money was like
flying out of my hands. And so once I kind
of made that realization, I realized that, like to answer
your question, shopping was the hardest thing for me. My
husband literally took all of my credit cards. He locked
(16:59):
them in a door. I couldn't get them. I think
some people might misinterpret that he wasn't controlling my life.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
This was a choice we made together.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
But as we made that decision, I was like, I
literally cannot trust myself with even having the credit cards
in my wallet. I mean, we did the full blown thing,
you know, we went to cash envelopes. I had to
pay cash when I was getting gas, which was so
freaking difficult, Like nowhere takes cash.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Yeah, they're not set up for that anymore.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
No, no, And I mean ten years ago it was
a little bit better, right, but it was still rough.
So I think that was the hardest thing for me
was really starting to understand why I was making really
stupid choices and being okay with going down that kind
of that mental health journey of realizing like I wasn't
just stupid, I wasn't making bad choice.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
I mean I was making bad choices but it wasn't
for just willing nilly.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
It was because I needed to really work through some
things that had happened in my life and why I
was craving this sense of control so badly in my life,
and why I was choosing to do it in this
particular manner.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
So you did that for seven years where your credit
cards were virtually locked up unless you, I assume, made
a decision to get other this is a necessity and
we don't have cash on hand for a new furnace
or for a car repair or whatever that might have been.
And then you switched. How did that come about? And
what was the hardest part of that?
Speaker 2 (18:11):
So we paid off our consumer debt in our car
and a little under two years, and we were really
vicious about it. You know, it was a lot of money,
and we were just really intensive. You know, I joke
that we just ate like rice and beans and college
students for a couple of years, not hey, hey, not
eating out that that's a lot of money right there
for most people. Starbucks was another really hard one for me.
I love Starbucks. I'm a big coffee girls. Yeah, So
(18:33):
we did that. So after two years, then we still
had our mortgage, but we had already made the decision
we weren't going to aggressively pay off our mortgage.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
We had a good interest, you know, we.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Really we had talked to some people that had more
information than we did, which I think was a key
to our success is we had we talked to people
who were smarter in this area than we were, and
we decided we didn't want to try to pay off.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Our mortgage just yet.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
So then we were like, okay, so we can have
a little bit more of luxury in our life, but
we really wanted to save money. That was our next goal,
and so we had our made the decision, you know,
we were going to try to save about sixty thousand
dollars cash, which felt like insane, that felt like impossible.
So then after a few years we did and so
then we were like, well what now, Now we're just
saving money for the sake of saving money, and that, honestly,
(19:14):
to me, that kind of felt irresponsible. I was like,
I feel like maybe we should be investing this.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
And so then we kind of went on this journey
again of trying to find people that like could help
us figure out like what is the next logical thing.
Do we just do we really just keep stacking up
money in our savings account or do we invest this
in different ways?
Speaker 3 (19:30):
What do we do? And So while we.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Were going on that journey, I was going through some
pretty intense health challenges, and I had some great doctors
and stuff like that, but I really I was really
frustrated with the medical system, and I was like, you
know what, I want to seek out other solutions that
my doctor might not be the one to suggest. Nothing
super crazy, but I was like, I do want other options.
(19:53):
And so I decided we decided as a couple, we
were going to take some of our income and put
it towards that. So I would say that was like
kind of our first decision to like go to debt by.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Choice, and it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
We were still paying cash for things at that point,
but that kind of led us one thing after another
after another. We were like, well, you know, we have
the money now, so like maybe we both want to
go to therapy, maybe we both want to seek out
some holistic options for our health. Maybe we want to
redo our backyard to kind of increase the value of
our home. And so, and we paid cash for all
those things. But then we kind of hit a moment
(20:26):
where our savings was starting to dwindle faster than we
could put it in. And that's when we had to
make a choice where we were like, do we continue
at the rate we were at, where we keep saving money,
saving money, saving money, or do we change our relationship
with debt. And so that was kind of the conversation
we started in the last year or so, which was honestly,
I think that was actually harder than our decision to
(20:46):
go debt free in the first place, because we had
basically like completely trained our brain that debt was so
bad and that debt could not be good, which, knowing
what I know about finances now, I'm like, that's not
entirely true. I think it to your point, it goes
about like how do you communicate with each other, how
do you communicate with yourself about money? And so we
(21:07):
really had to rewire our brains. We kind of joke
a lot that we had like brainwashed ourself that debt
was such a bad thing, and we had to rebrainwash
ourselves that that debt was okay at a manageable rate
and for good things. So, for example, we decided we
were going to invest in a business this year, and
so we had to take out a pretty big business loan,
and that is debt.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
You know.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
However, people want to say that is debt, but we
were like, that's to us. Everyone's different, but to us,
we're like, that's good debt, Like we want to have
this other option in our future. We wanted to invest
in a business. We already knew that.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
We did all this.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Research, so we're like, that's good debt test, that's okay.
And then I think the harder things kind of came
in is when we started to talk about, like the
value of our life is how we word it. So
it's like, you know, traveling or you know, my dad
is going to be seventy five in the next couple
of years and we want to take them on a
big trip, and like could we pay cash? We could,
(22:04):
but is that the right choice. I'm not sure where
the economy is right now.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
Cash is king.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
It's good to have some savings, but also, I don't
want to stop living my life. I felt like on
our debt free journey, we really did stop living our
life because we were in such a rush to pay
off our debt, which is good and it is valuable,
but that wasn't how I wanted to live my life
long term.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
That makes sense, Jenna, So you talked about having this
money and having debt. If it's not too personal, I
assume you guys have retirement savings that you are investing
in that that's just not talked about because that's paying
yourself first. It's off to the side, it's doing its
work for retirement, and so it's not part of the
(22:46):
debt or debt conversation.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
That's a really good question, So yes, all that is correct.
I'm also grateful that I work for an employer that
has a really aggressive four oh and K matching. I've
also been with my employer for a long time, but
this is also something that we had to make. The
decision is I started getting job offers at other places
that the salaries were way better, but the benefits, including
(23:10):
the four oh one K and the retirement were not,
And so I had to make some hard choices in
my career where I chose to stay where I'm at
partially because of the retirement and the four to one
K matching. And I think that's something that a lot
of people my age don't actually even understand. Let alone
make choices around And again, I think I value education
(23:31):
a lot, I really do it, and I mean all
forms of education, not just obviously I'm a professor at
a university, but like I value all forms of education.
I think you can learn from anyone that has more
experience in something than you do. And so, throughout every
part of our financial literacy journey, I was reaching out
to people being like, what do you know that I
don't know? How can you help me? And so when
I was making decisions around my career, my cousin is
(23:53):
in a CPA actually for a big organization, and I
had reached out to him because I trust him and
I respect him and he has made a lot of
really good financial decisions in his life. And I was like, hey,
what do you think do you think I should leave
for this other job? And he actually, he is so smart.
But he walked me through this process of putting a
dollar value on everything. My employer was giving me, everything
(24:13):
from my sick days to my PTO to my four
oh one K and he had me put an hourly
dollar value on it and then add that up in
comparison to the offer letter I was getting. And he
was like there's no comparison. He was like, you're making
so much more in your current job if you add
up everything in comparison to what this other offer is
giving you. And so I think that helped as well.
(24:34):
I'm humble enough to understand that I do not know everything,
and I'm also smart enough to be able to ask
someone that I know knows more than me and be like,
please help me, because I don't know what I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Jenna, that is so smart. I'm continually advising people find someone,
whether it's an educated mentor or a financial professional, who
can help you get more information to make the decision
that's right for you. I think my podcast and the
other things that I put out there are great for
general information, but I'm not looking at your checkbook, your
(25:08):
text return, your credit card, debt you or anything. Everything
that I give is just a starting point.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Well, and I think that's I love that you said
that too, because money is so personal, right I obviously
I work with college age students, and I'm very open
obviously about my debt free journey. Well, ask me a
lot about like how I made those choices and what
process did I use and who did I follow? And
I'm very honest about the process that worked well for us.
(25:34):
But I'm also honest with people that it worked for us,
that doesn't mean it's going to work for them.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
My husband and I also have a super unique relationship.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
I mean we really are like best friends and we've
kind of grown up together. We started dating when I
was nineteen, and so, like, our relationship is really different
than other peoples, and so I'm really honest with folks
that you know, this is what's worked for us. But like, yeah,
I think you're spot on. And I always get nervous
sometimes when people ask about like who do they listen
to and comes to financial advice, and I'm like, honestly,
(26:02):
like you like yourself, Like, yeah, you need to find
some information that's gonna help you in that journey. But
unless you're willing to actually open up your bank account
in front of another human being, which I do think
that's kind of the level of openness you have to
have in order to really be honest about your finances.
But you have to be willing to be that vulnerable
with someone, and it is it's hard. I mean, our
world teaches us that like money is such a really
(26:25):
secretive thing that no one talks about and I mean
even I when I was going on this journey, I
would ask a lot of my friends like, Hey, do
you do you and your partner talk about this? Or
do you and your spouse share financial information? Or do
you guys have a shared savings account? And most of
them were like no, like we don't talk about money
like this is this, this is this, And I'm like, okay,
And to each their own, I mean, everyone's allowed to
(26:45):
do whatever they want in their relationships, but I was like,
that's not how my husband and I wanted our relationship
with each other in money. We wanted to make sure
there was honesty, clarity, and that we both knew like
the road we were going down that you know, these
were our goals for our life, like we were always
honest with each other that This is my opinion, but
I don't think, you know, one singular four to oh
(27:06):
one K for a person is going to be enough
in the next forty or fifty years. You could have
a really aggressive one. I still don't think it's going
to be enough money. The way that inflation is going,
it's going to be difficult for my generation to have
enough money to retire, and so I do think you
need to diversify in a lot of ways, and my
husband and I were really open with each other about
what that could look like and looking into different options.
(27:28):
And I think that helped us a lot too, is
just being open to trying to figure out other choices
that would work for our future, knowing that that was
our end result that we did want to be able
to retire one day.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Right, And I have mentioned this before, whether you are
going to have a joint checking account and joint credit cards,
or you're each going to have your own if you
are in a marriage, if you are in a partnership relationship,
you still have to communicate. You have to know where
each other's goals are, what it is you're working for,
because if you got two people in a boat rowing
(28:02):
in their own directions, the boat's not going anywhere. And
the goal is that you have a common goal that
you're working toward it together in whatever way works best
for you.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Yeah, I mean I think that's really really wise advice.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Well, thank you, I try. Your husband is a ten
ninety nine worker.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Still, you're tagging a lot of interesting comments here, so yeah,
but this was one of our decisions, right, Is that
he could make a lot more money in the long
term staying in ten ninety nine, but we decided we
wanted the stability of normal employment at least for a
little while. We did this when we were going debt free.
He's now kind of dabbling back into ten ninety nine,
(28:42):
but he still has a full time, normal job right now.
And I think that was a big decision for us,
because I think a lot of times, especially early in
our lives, we were chasing money. We really were like
I mean, we were doing things we loved and careers
that we really enjoyed, but if someone offered us more
money or a bigger salary or bigger commission bonus, we
(29:02):
were like, oh, le, let's look at that option. And
I think we came to a place where we realized,
most of the time, if they're offering you that kind
of money, there's a reason. And so one of the
decisions my husband and I made is that, you know,
a lot of people in his industry travel a lot
for their jobs, and he had the opportunity really early
in his career working for a man who is arguably
one of the biggest names in his industry. But he
(29:25):
traveled all the time and he never saw his family.
And I remember one day my husband was like, I
just don't want that to be our life. He was like,
I mean, kudos to them that they make that work,
but he was like, I don't want to miss you
all the time. And he was like, I want to
be with you. And so he turned down a lot
of jobs and a lot of really cool gigs and
a lot of things that I think would have excelled
him in his career exponentially so that he didn't have
(29:47):
to travel all the time for work and very similar
It's not uncommon in my industry for people to move
universities often to be able to move up the ladder,
and I chose not to do that so that we
could build a life in Las Vegas, and I think
that we're both really grateful for that. That was a
hard choice for us, though, because the money start did
look appealing.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
It does, and what people aren't always aware of with
ten ninety nine income is you typically have zero benefits.
You have zero commitment of stability and continued I can't
say employment, but continued financial relationship. You have to pay
your own taxes, so either you're making quarterly estimates or
(30:26):
you're figuring out some other way to pay it timely
so you don't end up with penalties and interest from
the IRS when you file your tax returns, and in
addition to the penalty and interest, finding that money for
the cash at that point in time when the taxes
are due.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
So, yeah, you have to you're preaching to the choir here.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Well, yeah, you learned a hard lesson or a good lesson,
because for a lot of people, that is the right
way to do things.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
I just love what you're doing here because I wish
there was more open, honest conversation about those things, even
not le It's it seems like a tiny decision to me now,
but I know in the moment it didn't feel that way.
Of the decision between a W two and a ten
ninety nine, Like that's a hard choice for a lot
of people, I think, especially nowadays. I think the younger
generation is really pitched this idea that like ten ninety
nine equals freedom, that you get to like be wherever
(31:15):
you want and do whatever you want. And that's kind
of true, but it's also not and it comes with
all those other things you talked about. But I think
even when he even when he got his first big contract.
We had no idea about the taxes thing. We had
no idea that they weren't taking money out for taxes.
And so the first year when our tax bill came around,
and thankfully we always did our taxes early, so we
always did them in like January, so we had a
(31:36):
couple months buffer. But our first tax bill was like
I don't even want to say the number. It was
so big, and I just remember us staring at him
being like, wait, we have to come up with as
much money like that was that possible?
Speaker 3 (31:47):
And we did, but it was.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
I mean, it really did feel impossible, and I'm grateful
we had that like three months instead of some people
to do their taxes in April. I think I would
have had an actual panic attack. But that was one
of the things that after that. I remember we were
like googling it and we were like, why do we
owe so much money? And then it like very obviously
first thing was like because ten ninety nine, don't take
out taxes, you have to do it yourself, and we're
(32:09):
like why did no one tell us that? And then
I and then it kind of you know, just the
way my logical brain works I'm like, well, is that
really your employer's job to tell you, like, hey, this
is how we're paying you and you need to pay
attention to your taxes, Like that's not their job, Like
they're not my mom, Like that's my job to be
an adult.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Well yeah, but it's not something you necessarily learn. And
if no one tells you, you don't know. I've had
clients throughout the years that have had both W two
and ten ninety nine income and at the end of
the year they have a large tax bill and they're like,
why is this Well, you either have to pay estimates
or you have to increase the withholding on your W
two job. I can do that, yes, well how much, Well,
(32:47):
I don't know. Based on this amount and this income,
this is the target number you want to hit with
your withholding. Go to your human resources or your payroll department,
whatever it is for your company, and say figure it
out so that I've got this much paid in at
the end of the year. And they're typically very happy
to work with you. Human resources, payroll, accounting departments, whatever
they are at the company you work for. If your
(33:10):
withholding is too high or too low, or too whatever,
talk to them and they'll help you figure it out
so that your money is going where you want it
to go, because one that's their job and two it
doesn't cost them anything extra to help you do this.
The company does not lose out on anything based on
how much of your money you use for taxes and
how much goes in your pocket. So talk to these people.
(33:32):
This goes back I think Jenna too, you saying to
find the people to talk to, find your expert who
can help you figure stuff out, because that's what they're
there for.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Yeah, And I think that really was something really important,
really vital for me when we're making our decision to
go debt by choice. Was my therapist that when at
that time my husband and I were seeing the same
therapists but individually, and I think that she was so
helpful for us because she lived her life in such
an authentic way that she was always traveling and doing
fun things and very fiscally responsible as well, and was
(34:06):
willing to kind of talk about that with us. But
that was one of the things that I found to
be really valuable, is that she continuously was talking about
how she was using money to fund the life that
she wanted to live.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
And I felt like.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
That was so valuable to me that I really did
feel like I was kind of in these golden handcuffs
at that time that I had kind of given myself
this stamp of like I am a debt free person
and I have to live that way for the rest
of my life, even though that didn't feel like it
was serving me anymore, like I won't lie to anyone,
Like when I was getting debt free, that did feel
like it was serving me, because I felt like at
(34:39):
that point, I feel like the debt was checking me alive,
Like it was terrifying to owe that much.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Money and not know where you're paying it, and it
was awful.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
To the flip side, I think living in a way
where you are making income and you are making smart choices,
but you're not doing anything that you deem to be fun,
that's not really healthy either. And so once I kind
of started changing that nar in my head of like
like you can and I'm not saying like I'm not
taking on massive amounts of debt now, I'm trying to
be smart about it, but also being like, well, what
(35:08):
what is going to add value to my life this year? Like,
you know, my husband's grandpa's turning ninety this year. He
lives in Peru, and it's a big expense for us
to go to Peru for his birthday. But I was like, well,
that's kind of a one in the lifetime experience. I mean,
like I don't know how much longer his grandpa has left.
I mean, ninety is pretty good, I would say. And
(35:28):
we've never been to Peru. Well, I mean my husband
did when he was young, but it was so long ago,
and so I was like, you know, that feels like
that's one of those life moments that I'm like, that's
worth it to me and still have a plan of
how we're going to pay it off and be smart
about it. But also like, yeah, that feels like that's
a good choice.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
It's so important to be intentional. I'm not a fan
of the financial advisors, financial literacy advisors, speakers, whatever, who say,
you know, no more Starbucks ever. You can't have a Starbucks,
you can't have a this, you can't have a that.
Every dollar must go into savings, must go into investing,
must go into whatever. You have to find that balance
(36:07):
and for every person it's going to be different. Just
like there is no magic number I can't say, well,
if you're forty years old, you need this much for retirement,
and if you're fifty years old, you should plan to
have this much for retirement, because it's not that easy.
Everyone has a different lifestyle. If your plan in retirement
is that you're going to travel a lot, your number
four retirement is going to be bigger than someone who
(36:28):
is going to stay at home and take care of
their grandchildren or do volunteer work or whatever else. And
that's fine, there is nothing wrong with it. It's just
this is what you need to retire, and this is
what they need to retire. If these are the things
in life that truly are your necessities, and maybe that's
a once a month manicure as opposed to a weekly manicure,
(36:50):
or a once a week Starbucks instead of twice a
day Starbucks, whatever it is. We need to find those
joy things in life because otherwise, what are we working
looking for? What kind of point point?
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (37:03):
And I think that that is. I think that there's
so much that now that I've gone through my debt
free journey that I'm I don't know, maybe I truly
I kind of disagree with it, Like I agree with
the idea of living debt free. I think it is
a very peaceful way to live. I will be honest
with folks about that. But I also believe that there
is a lot of narrative in the debt free community
(37:24):
around making hard choices and living a really minimalistic lifestyle,
which there's nothing wrong with that. If that's your cup
of tea, that is definitely not my cup of tea, Marcy,
it really is not. I don't actually even like tea.
That is not my cup of coffee. It really isn't.
And that was one of the things that when we
had gotten debt free, I was like one of the
very first things I was like, I want to get
(37:45):
my dang manicures back in my life because I and
it sounds so silly, but to me, that was like
a really important confidence statement for me. You know, that
was an important moment. That was all like, I don't
love the word self care. I think it's overused, but
that was version of that is that, you know, it
was my space where I could go and I could
sit and be taken care of in a life where
(38:06):
like I take care of a lot of things and
a lot of people. So it's nice to have that
time for me. And so although I understand why I
made that choice when I was getting debt free not
to get my manicures for two years, I also don't.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
Know if I'd actually do that again.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Like I think if I could go back, I would
maybe be okay with it taking two and a half
or three years to pay off my debt and still
being able to have that one thing that was so
valuable to me. And even now, like I don't get
Starbucks every day, I try to limit it to it
once a week.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
I try, but you.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Know, I've also created this little like mini Starbucks in
my own house where I make my own little iced
coffee and I have my bougie little creamers and my
little stirstick And it's so fun for me though, and
I love it so much. So it probably is the
same amount of money as going to Starbucks at this
point in time, but whatever, I have found so much
joy in those things that it's worth the money that
I exchange for the amount of happiness it brings me.
(38:58):
And I think that's something that the debt free can
unity really loses, is that they don't think about exactly
what you said. It's like what is the point of
working if not to spend some of the money. Like, yes,
we need to be smart and take care of ourselves,
but like part of it is to be able to
enjoy your life and in whatever way that means to you.
So I think that that's something that I really learned
with our debt by choice lifestyle as well, is that
(39:21):
I'm not going to be stupid about my money. I'm
not going to spend it willy nilly on everything, but
I'm also not gonna not spend it either. If I
want a cup of coffee, I'm gonna buy a damn
cup of coffee. I work hard, and I work a lot,
and that makes me happy, and if that makes me happy, amazing.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
I think it's wonderful that you and your husband found
the balance that you guys needed for your financial journey
to make sense. You know, you learned a lot of
lessons the hard way, but you learn them and that
just means continuing to go forward, that you get this
intentionality as just part of your lifestyle. You have these conversations, Okay,
(39:58):
we want to do this is something that we say, Okay,
we'll take the debt and we'll make a plan to
pay it off. Is this something that we say, Okay,
we're gonna cut back on XYZ so that we can
do this and move forward. Those conversations are so important
to the relationship. And as we said before about relationships
and money, I don't think it's always about the money.
(40:19):
It's about the lack of communication about whatever the money
situation is and.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
The emotions that go with it. Oh great that I think.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
I think some people are actually okay being like, hey, like,
I see this a lot. And actually some of my
peers that you know, they're okay with being like, hey,
we're not allowed to spend any more money this month
because we're saving up for Hawaii. But then they don't share, like, hey,
that makes me feel that, you know, we're not living
our life in alignment with our values, or that makes
me feel like you're telling me what to do with
(40:49):
my money, or that makes me feel like my input
into our household is not valued because I'm not bringing
an income or whatever.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
It is.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Like, I feel like the emotional side of money and
in relationships in general. I mean, my podcast is on
emotional leadership, so I think about emotions a lot. But
that's something I think about, is that we need to
do better about being able to express how something makes
us feel, what is the emotion behind it. So I
think that's something that my husband and I really learned
through this journey is that, yeah, it's important for us
(41:18):
to say like, hey, I'm feeling stressed out because we
don't have enough money this month, or or you know,
I just had a really big moment in my career
and I did this cool keynote speaking thing and I
told him, I was like, I really want to go celebrate,
like I feel like this was a moment in my
career and I want to celebrate this moment. And he
was like, awesome, what do you want? Like do you
want an expensive dinner on the strip?
Speaker 3 (41:38):
Like what do you want to do? And I was
like I want Taco Bell and he was like, okay,
let's get you some Taco Bell.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
But you know, it's that thing because I think most
people equate success in celebration with expensive and we really
changed that relationship that like I was feeling like I
wanted to celebrate because I did something that excited me.
That doesn't mean I need a five hundred dollars dinner.
That means I want to do something that values the
hard work I put in, and I want to spend
(42:04):
some time with my husband while I do it. To
me on that moment, that meant a twenty nine dollars
taco bell meal.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Okay, that's a lot of taco bell in Vegas?
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Do they my husband can eat so much? That actually
is alcohol? It our taco bells?
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Oh, okay, that must be a Vegas thing? It is?
It so is? I don't know what goes well with
a dorito loco taco.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
A baja blast with tequila.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Okay, good to know, Jenna. I have so much appreciated
this time with you. Have you got anything you'd like
to share before we end?
Speaker 2 (42:37):
I just want to say thank you for letting me
share a little bit of my journey and the important
work I think you're doing. I do think these are
important conversations, and I'm grateful that you're having them, especially
someone with such incredible experience in your own career.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
So I really appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
And maybe as people are listening to this podcast, if
they feel like they also need some advice in leadership
and they're like, hey, now I'm making the money and
I need to figure out how to up in my career.
Then head over to my podcast Tearing Up My Heart
and I can help you with the other side of that.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
I will be sharing a link to Jenna's podcast in
the show notes. And I believe I am guessing on
your podcast in the near future.
Speaker 3 (43:13):
You are, I'm so excited.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
I am too. I have no idea where the conversation
will go, but I know it's gonna be fun.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
It will be okay.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Well, thank you so much Jenna for being my guest listeners.
Thank you so much for coming by and sharing your
time with us. This is money, Marcy, and thank you
for listening to Marcie talks money and life. You got this,
Siya
Host
Marci Grossman
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2
Season Two Out Now! Law & Order: Criminal Justice System tells the real stories behind the landmark cases that have shaped how the most dangerous and influential criminals in America are prosecuted. In its second season, the series tackles the threat of terrorism in the United States. From the rise of extremist political groups in the 60s to domestic lone wolves in the modern day, we explore how organizations like the FBI and Joint Terrorism Take Force have evolved to fight back against a multitude of terrorist threats.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com