April 30, 2025 • 34 mins
Let's talk about what financial issues may happen in divorce.
Attorney Keith M. Nathanson educates listeners about financial and life aspects of divorce. As a family lawyer he sees a wide range legal issues and has experience with a variety of family legal matters.
You can contact him at his firm, Keith M. Nathanson, PLLC
Follow Marci Talks Money (and Life) wherever you get your podcasts to get the episodes as they post.
Visit MoneyMarci.com to check out other financial literacy resources.
Attorney Keith M. Nathanson educates listeners about financial and life aspects of divorce. As a family lawyer he sees a wide range legal issues and has experience with a variety of family legal matters.
You can contact him at his firm, Keith M. Nathanson, PLLC
Follow Marci Talks Money (and Life) wherever you get your podcasts to get the episodes as they post.
Visit MoneyMarci.com to check out other financial literacy resources.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Powered by Riverside FM. This is Marcie talks Money and Life.
I am Bunny Marcy, and I am thrilled to introduce
my guest today, my friend, attorney Keith Nathanson. Keith practices
family law, bankruptcy, litigation, and collections from his office in Southfield, Michigan.
(00:23):
Keith is a guy you call when you need legal help.
More specifically, he works with collections for both corporations and individuals,
credit report and credit score issues, prenups, divorce, custody, parenting, time, guardianship,
and a whole bunch of lawyer stuff. But with no
further ado, here's Keith.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Hey, Hi everybody.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
So, of course, because this is a financial podcast, I
am more interested in any of your financial areas. And
you cover so many things, I'm probably gonna have to
have you back a few times so that we don't
cover everything shallow and I'd like to go a little
bit deeper.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
That works for me. I'd love to talk, especially if
people are listening, you know, even if people aren't listening,
I love to talk anyway. So all good.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
So if you were to say, what are you in
the mood to talk about today of your financial aspects
of your legal practice, what interests you today? It's been
the wheel of.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
The financial ramifications of a divorce. It might be a
good place to start.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
That sounds great. So when two people decide, hey, we're
done with the marriage, obviously they want to have different
attorneys represent them, So one of them comes to you.
What goes from there? They knock on your door and say, hey,
I want a divorce.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
So I guess it kind of starts if they both
come to me, because Michigan recently has started something called
collaborative divorces. So if they agree on everything, you can
actually collaborateatively file a divorce and it sort of minimizes
the conflict, well it's supposed to anyway, and it allows
(02:09):
one lawyer to kind of act as the document prepare person.
I don't like them because it puts lawyers in a
pre precarious position. If that breaks down, then the lawyer
will find himself or herself kind of in the middle
of who they represent, and really they can't represent either
(02:30):
because you can't really pick a side in that instance.
So if we set aside the collaborative divorces from it
and just talk about when somebody comes and wants to
get a divorce, we really don't talk about the causes
for the divorce because Michigan has what are called no
fault divorces, So for purposes getting the divorce itself, you
don't have to prove any sort of fault, so it
(02:52):
minimizes the conflict between the parties and you don't have
to throw things out there. He said this, she did this.
He was being she was being He cheated, she cheated.
That stuff doesn't apply. And when you come into a divorce,
really the out of the gate when you file it,
where the division of property and debts starts, is at
(03:16):
a fifty to fifty mark, and the fault can kind
of push that one way or the other, because at
the end of the day, the court has to make
what's called an equitable division of property, meaning equitable meaning fair,
and the court can adjust that fairness or that equity
depending on the situation. So it doesn't usually get pushed
(03:38):
very far. People come in oftentimes with unrealistic expectations of
you know, I want ninety percent and I want the
other side to leave with their tennis shoes and five
dollars and that's all they get and I get everything else.
Never have seen it happen, probably never will see it happen.
So you know, we operate from that premise that it's
(03:58):
a it's going to be a fifty fifty split, and
sometimes that division is just as difficult as kind of
separating the people in the divorce and separating emotionally as well.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Now, what is the impact on that fifty to fifty
if one spouse came into the marriage with significantly more
assets or one spouse earns significantly more income.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
So when you come into the marriage with assets, so
if you bring a house into a divorce and the
house has a value of they'll just make up a
number one hundred thousand dollars when you walk in to
the marriage. If you own that house prior to the marriage,
that first hundred thousand out of the house, if it's
worth three hundred now comes out off the top and
(04:48):
goes back to the person who brought it in. However,
if someone brings a home into the marriage and then
or assets in the marriage and kind of come with
everything else in the marriage, then typically you're going to
go back to that fifty to fifty if you use
(05:09):
the money or the assets in the marital state and
not segregated them. So I mean a good example would
be as if you have a trust and you come
in with a trust that your parents gave you, and
you take the money from the trust and you throw
it in a joint bank account, and ten years later
you want to get a divorce and you say, wait
a second, I want that money I brought in from
(05:30):
the trust. Well, you've mixed it all up in the
pot of goo. That's the mayoral of state. You can't
separate anymore. But if I keep that trust separate and
I don't take that money and use it for the
mayoral of state and keep it as my own, I'm
most likely going to walk out of the divorce with
my trust money that I started with. Of course, that
(05:54):
gets muddled a little bit. If the parties enter into
a pre nuptial agreement where it contracts they agree that
party one gets to keep their million dollars of things
that they've brought into the marriage. They're going to get
to take their million dollars worth of things out of
the marriage, provided that the prenup is structured properly, has
been maintained properly, And again you don't have that commingling
(06:18):
over the course of the marriage with respect to the assets.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Now, I know when I talk about wills that I
tell people because of law changes and whatever else, you
should be updating your will every five years or so,
depending on what's been going on in your life because
things change and the laws change and whatever else. But
do prenups need to be updated when you say maintaining it?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Uh No, No. Typically if it is contractually sound when
it's entered into then it's a valid and binding contractual
agreement between the parties. So somebody had a certain ball
of assets prior to the marriage and they've sort of
taken that out of play with the prenup, though that
(07:05):
ball of assets is still out of play. If some
of those assets have disappeared, okay, they're gone now that
they don't exist anymore. But I mean, there are things
you need to do. So if there's real property, obviously
you don't want to take sell a piece of the
prenup property and then take the proceeds from that and
invest that into marital property because you run the risk
(07:28):
of losing that protected status of the assets there. Prenups
are a really finicky thing that have to be done
correctly on the front side. There are some check marks
you have to hit when you draft and you execute,
and you present a prenup to somebody before it's signed.
(07:49):
Obviously they have to have the opportunity to take that
document to their own lawyer who can look at it
and tell me, you know, yeah or nay, you know
it's a great idea or terrible idea, don't sign it.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Okay. So if you're getting divorced, you have different assets.
You brought assets in, they have your name on them,
and you don't mingle those assets. But while you're married,
you have a joint account, and one of the spouse's
works or earns more than the other spouse, but everything
goes into that shared account, so it doesn't matter that
(08:21):
shared account has whatever it has. Theoretically, it's going to
get split in themental Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Much the same as any other personal property or real property.
Even if one party works and the other doesn't. It's
still considered marital property if it's accumulated or acquired during
the marriage. Same would work for.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Debt as well, And that goes for like retirement assets,
which are always in one name, so they're never co mingled.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Right, So typically those are divided, including employer provided benefits
such as a four oh one K or a KYO,
or a pension or a profit sharing plan. So those
are actually divided by a court order that gives one
half of the contribution from party A to party B.
(09:13):
But again, if you come into a marriage and you're
ten years into a four to oh one K or
ten years into a pension, and you're married for ten
the first ten years prior to the marriage would belong
to that person solely, and just the division would be
done to the second half or that other ten years
(09:35):
of accumulation into that retirement plan during the.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
So you need accounts involved when you're when you're doing
the legals for divorce, I mean if.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
The state warrants it. Yes, Typically the court orders for
managed plans like a four to h one K or
a pension or profit sharing plan, there's a separate order
that gets entered at the end of the case, and
then that order or is actually served upon the plan
administrator and it basically tells them what should be divided
and the framework, and they do all the numbers internally.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Would you say most divorces you see are not necessarily amicable,
but they're able to work through the things and find
that division or do they all find things to fight about.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
So they're going to give the lawyer answer of it depends.
It depends how much acrimony, how much conflict we start
off with. I think that you know, people start at
a certain level of conflict in there are certain people
who will magnify that conflict during the divorce. There are
(10:47):
other people who will kind of start to move away
and realize that they're going to be on their own
and maybe they should let go of the anger because
it doesn't really serve any purpose. And also money is
always a big motivating factor because more fighting, more expensive divorce,
(11:08):
more expensive divorce, less money at the end for the parties,
and eventually, you know, you wind up. I mean, there's
a saying in the law business that the mark of
a good settlement is when both parties walk away equally unhappy.
So you know, eventually you get to a point where
the case is mediated or it goes to trial, or
(11:29):
it's facilitated, or there's a flurry of settlement offers back
and forth, and most of the time people get to
the point where they're you know, they're unhappy and they
feel the other sides about as unhappy as they are,
and they realize that they need to just end it
and go away.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Okay, So the best divorces the lawyers make the least
amount of money.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
It depends on your definition of best. Not best for me,
but to effectuate the divorce. Yes, the less fighting in
the quicker you can get on your way and live
your life, the better off you're going to be.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
I have to imagine when people get to that point
of wanting a divorce, there's there's a lot of negative feelings.
They are one or both of them very much ready
to move on. So it's probably hard sometimes to get
them past that anger to the point of understanding, well,
this is affecting the dollars you're going to walk away
(12:28):
with two that you can fight to get a bigger percentage,
but it will be of a smaller pie.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Correct, And I'm really the percentages just don't vary that much.
You're talking So for a small divorce estate, you know,
another five percent you know if that nets you another
ten thousand dollars and you've had to spend thirty thousand
(12:55):
dollars in attorney fees to get it, you know, what's
the sense? I mean, really, I think A lot of
it depends on what brings them to the divorce. What
is the you know, what's the Well, there are many things,
and it's not just one thing that happens one time there,
but there's usually a trigger event or a catalyst that
(13:20):
you know, ultimately brings them to say enough is enough
for that you know, they reach their breaking point. I guess.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Okay, And obviously, if you don't have kids, or your
kids are grown ups, it's got to be easier than
if you have children under eighteen that you're still responsible
for when when the divorce occurs.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yeah, it's definitely much easier. I mean that, you know,
having the kids just adds another, you know, layer of
complexity with custody and parenting time and vacations and child
support and who pays for what and when, so you know,
pile that on top of trying to divide up your
assets and depth, and it definitely makes it more complicated.
(14:02):
And a lot of times that's a lot of the
source of the conflict in the divorce. It's less about
the money and more about the kids.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Or the dog or the whatever.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Sometimes sometimes or the silverware set.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
From an accounting standpoint, because that's my background, and that's
my personality and who I am. I look at it
and it's like, what can I do to maximize the
dollars I get? Irregardless of you. So this is what
I need, this is what's reasonable for me to have,
and what I'm reasonably gonna get. It's not worth the
(14:46):
time and the effort to get such a small return.
But I imagine it's hard to get people to hear.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
That, yeah, well you are of a rare breed because
people do not ever perform that lotical analysis. You can't
you cannot use the word divorce and logic generally in
the same sentence.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
I imagine not I'm not divorced, so I haven't had to
go through that, you know, getting through that that emotional
part of what that is. Do people come back often
to restate their custody, parenting time, or or the money
that you get for the divorce, you know, continuing money
(15:30):
when you have the custody of the children.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
So the when you get a divorce and you get
the final paperwork, the property settlement is final. That's a
it's a done deal that you get what you get,
you give what you give, You assume the liabilities that
you assume custody and parenting time and support are always
(15:53):
subject to change if there's a change in circumstances, and thankfully,
the law usually or for the most part, recognizes that
and allows people to come back when those changes happen. So,
depending you know, on the ages of the kids, you're
(16:13):
gonna be in a much different situation. If you've got
a couple of preschoolers, I mean, the situation kind of
shifts to something else when they start school, and then
they get to be teenagers or you know, preteen or
you know, they get to be seven or nine years
old and you know, sports are in the mix. Now
you're shifting into another, you know lane. And then they
(16:36):
get to be teenagers. You know, that's a whole another
thing all on its own. And then they get to be,
you know, towards the end of high school. You know,
they become these semi independent sort of adults, and the
situation changes again. So typically those are the things that
people will come back for, you know, when when there's
(16:59):
those changes. In Michigan under the law, I'm pretty sure
it's statewide. I know for sure it's Oakland County. You're
entitled to have your support automatically reviewed every two years,
so the support can change based on the number of overnights.
If you know, your divorce papers say that you're to
get a certain amount, but you're only using sixty percent
(17:21):
of that and that's the way it's been for three years,
or you know, if the payer's income goes up or down,
or the recipients income goes up or down. Those are
all situations where there be a change in circumstance, or
if the health insurance premiums change, that could impact the
numbers too. Thankfully, in Michigan, our support is calculated according
(17:47):
to a formula that's actually written into the statute. So
you literally take this formula, just plug all the stuff
in and it spits out a number. So for CPA,
it's like it's beautiful because it's you know, you cant
what it's going to be. That court can always deviate
if there's a reason, but you know, i'd say better
than ninety eight percent of the time, the court will
(18:08):
follow the recommendations or what the guidelines actually state. The
support should be.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Well. On the TV shows and whatever else, people are
always hiding millions of dollars overseas or wherever, or the
pricey artwork or how do you deal with that?
Speaker 2 (18:28):
So here, when you file a case and the other
side gets the papers served on them, that we mandatorily
require a form that requires you disclose all of your assets.
I mean, when a divorce case proceeds, you have a
phase of the case where it's discovery, and you can
send out interrogatories, which are questions for people to answer.
(18:51):
You say, you don't wear your bank accounts. What are
the numbers, what bank are they at? How much are
there in them? You can ask them to produce documents
and say, hey, give you your last twelve months of
bank statements. But ultimately, if someone hides something and doesn't
disclose it, you know, unless you find it. I mean,
you could hire a private investigator, you know, some type
of person to kind of do an investigation to find it.
(19:14):
But at least there's there's a remedy because if you
knowingly conceal assets in context of a divorce and the
other party finds out, they can come back to court
and tell the judge they found an asset, and the
judge has the discretion to award the entirety of that
asset to the other person and take it away completely.
(19:37):
So that million dollars that's hidden in an offshore account,
you find it a month after the divorce and come
back to court. The judge'll order that million dollars be
turned over to you because you found it.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Oh wow, So it's a it's a pretty steep game
you're playing you if you try to hide assets like that.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Yeah, I mean, and you signed things under oath too,
So there's always the the penalty of perjury, which is
a nice little felony in Michigan, so that cann't have
a relatively negative impact on your life to get convicted
of it.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
So you are a Michigan lawyer practicing predominantly in Oakland County.
Do you have any idea if the laws regarding divorce
are significantly different in other states or that's really so
outside of your Baileywick give no idea.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
So I know a couple other states generally what they do.
So California and Washington State are actually community property states,
so it's very, very different from Michigan. Community property basically
means that anything that comes into the marriage is automatically
considered community property and subject to division in the estate.
(20:50):
Even if you bring in you know, your trust fund
into the marriage, hence the need for a prenuptial agreement. Generally,
from what I know, most of the precepts that we
use here, they're pretty universal. Most states are going to
(21:11):
equitably divide property. We have a statute that defines twelve
factors for awarding custody to parents. Other states have similar
but somewhat different and have more factors, or they're expounded
a little bit. The court has a little bit more
of analysis, some have less. So you know, from what
(21:34):
I say or only applies to Michigan, So your mileage
definitely may vary if you're in another state listening to this.
So your best advice is to either look up the
statue or call a lawyer who does family law if
you're considering a divorce in another state, to kind of
figure out financially where you stand based on your scenario.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Do you have any divorce stories that you would be
able to share with us? Obviously any names totally changed,
but anything that came happened that was so unique it
is worth telling me.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
I can tell you a quick couple just to illustrate
how people just sometimes go out of their minds over insignificant,
insignificant things. In a divorce. I had a divorce where
the people were fighting over a set of Ikea silverware,
I mean off the shelf, like go there, it's in
(22:28):
the silverware department at Ikea. And they were spending hundreds,
if not thousands of dollars argu I mean, they couldn't
agree about anything. But so this was one of the
points of contention, and I told the client, I like,
I said, enough, just like, stop with the silverware. I said,
if you stop fighting about the silverware, I will credit
(22:50):
you all the fees spent arguing about this silly Ikea silverware.
And not only that, I will personally dry I have
to Ikea and buy you brand new in the box
a set of the same silverware. If they have something better,
you could come with me and pick out something you like.
(23:10):
And she wasn't having it. She wanted to fight, so
they continued to fight over the silverware. So they're that
story number one just about how crazy people get over things.
Story number two is a little bit better, worse. So
there was I was involved in this super contentious divorce
where the parties couldn't get along. I mean, they couldn't
(23:32):
you know, agree that you know, this is their right
hand or that you know today is Saturday. They would
fight about it. So they had the divorce was going
on and on and on. I mean, they couldn't be
in the same room together. And so we wound up
going to the court over a bird. And I can't
remember whether it was a cockatoo or a parrot or
(23:57):
I don't remember. There was a tropical bird, beautiful bird,
and wound up getting an order that said that the
husband had to turn over the bird to the wife,
and they couldn't figure out where to turn it over, so,
you know, just like like a showdown at the ok Corral.
We agreed to meet at the courthouse steps in front
(24:19):
from the Oakland County Courthouse building at noon, and so
I was near the entrance with the client, and the
other lawyer walked up with her client, and these people
got within two hundred feet of each other, and she
started yelling at him, and I could see in his
(24:39):
hand that he had a paper bag, large paper bag
about this big, and I thought to myself, this is
not going to end well. This is definitely not going
to end well. And they started yelling each other and
yelling each other, got a little closer. She started with
where's my effing bird? I want my effing bird. And
he responded back with f you, you're a bitch, and
(25:03):
a whole bunch of other expletives. And they got closer
and closer, and she said, you were supposed to bring
my effing bird. Where's my effing bird? And he's got
a paper bag in his hands. I thought, oh god,
he killed the bird and this is going to hander
a dead bird and we're gonna have he have something gone.
He goes, you want your bird, here's your bird, and
(25:24):
he proceeded to open the bag and off went the
bird flew away. So this tropical bird went off into
the horizon, at which point I don't know who charged
to They started wrestling and throwing punches, and then a
few seconds, I don't know, I got into that thing
where you know, when you're stressed, you have time dilation.
(25:45):
It felt like, you know, like three hours. It probably
was like twenty seconds, and the Oakland County Sheriff came
out and pried them apart and promptly arrested both of them,
which you know, ties into really good. Another adage that
you know, I mean, I kind of I have tell
is a joke to new lawyers that I mentor, but
you know it's kind of half true. So it's the
(26:05):
three rules of successful law practice. So you know, rule
number one is that gets your money up front. Rule
number two is that the client goes to jail, the
attorney goes to lunch. And rule number three, of course,
is get your money up front. So kind of kind
of ties in. And for those of you out there
who are wondering, I got my money up front, so
(26:27):
all good, and I did go to lunch.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
So I have to imagine that the party that released
the bird head additional charges or something.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Against I haven't told you that story before.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
It sounds familiar, though, I have to say I didn't
know if it was going to be a dead birder
or free bird.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yeah, that's that's just two of many. You know that
just I've been doing this for thirty five years, so
you know, my tiny little nugget of a brain is
just filled with with war stories.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Right. But I have to imagine that, you know, someone says, okay,
you get the plate, and then they go and break
the plate, that there is some some fine, some penalty whatever,
But with both of them getting arrested, I feel bad
for the bird because this is not a tropical climate
here in Michigan.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Whereabouts of the bird art you'll still unknown to.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
This day, right, And if it's a parent, it could
be fairly long.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Lived, right exactly.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
And I don't know how long a cockatoo lives, but
parents live pretty long.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah, So, well, who knows fate. Unknown of the bird
parties eventually got divorced. They're probably still fighting to this day. Thankfully,
I'm not involved.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
When you started practicing law, did you think you'd be
handling divorce and these types of manners or did you
have a different kind of plan in place.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
So my original plan out of law school was to
take the patent bar because I have a very well,
as you know, very strong science background. Well for those
of you who don't know, so, I have a double
bachelor's in genetics and cellio molecular biology. And way back
in the days before electricity, when I went to college,
(28:10):
we used to have to describe everything on a stone tablet.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Because that's why he's much older than I am.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Yeah, I think because the paper hadn't even been invented yet.
You know, eventually that invented a printing press and things
got a little easier. But back then I got out
of college right at the cusp of bioengineering, I like,
right on the forefront of computers and bioengineering, and so
I originally planned to take the patent bar and I
(28:39):
was really had my mindset that I would go write patents,
you know, for pharmaceutical companies and you know, bioengineering firms,
although I don't think many existed at that time. But
I kind of had an idea of what I wanted
to do. But I got talked out of that and
went into a firm where we did divorce and bankruptcy work.
So I just kind of got you know, and I
(29:00):
have been clerking there anyway, So just kind of dove
right in and dove into the fray. And here I am,
decades later, still still in the fray. It explains, you know,
why all the hair is missing here the you know
this this is like stress baldness.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
I like to call it. You do know I'm only
sharing this as audio, So no, you could tell people
you had a full head of hair and nobody would know.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
How Yeah, okay, I have a full even head of
hair that that is not true. But I would like
you all to imagine me with a full ahead of hair,
because if you guys all envision it, then of course
my hair will grow back.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Well, you regularly get mistaken for Jason Momoa, so.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
I mean, yeah, exactly, not so much.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Well, but you've made a nice living doing this, and
it is certainly a service that that is needed, and
so you do. You do good things for people who
need you in a very stressful time in their lives.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
That's true. And probably within the last I don't know,
decade or decade and half, I've come to realize that
while ethically I have an obligation to my clients, I
also concurrently in divorce cases where there are children, I
really feel that I have an ethical obligation to make
(30:17):
sure that the kids are okay or as okay as
I can facilitate during the divorce and you know, getting
the people to the other side, because really that's the
thing that is really begun to concern me, you know,
over that period of time, maybe it's been twenty years,
I don't even know how long. So I kind of,
(30:38):
while I fulfill my ethical duty to the client, I
always keep, you know, half an eye focused on on
the kids as well, because they're really the ones who
suffer the ramification of the all the negative goo that
happens in a divorce.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
It's it's important, and you know, there's there's so much
value in what you do. I mean, it would be
lovely if we could wave our wand and everyone only
married the perfect person for them and there were never
any divorces, and fortunately there'd still be a whole lot
of law for you to practice. But we can't. We
can't change that. The best we can do is the
best we can for all the parties involved in it.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Now that that's true. I mean, you know, marriages is
a fragile thing. It is a fragile spinning wheel that
you need to constantly put energy into to keep it spinning.
And you know, if I just you know, whax about
this for a second. I think that maybe people lose
sight of that over long term marriages, or you know,
(31:44):
sometimes not even that long term, that they lose sight
of it. That it's not just a marriage, is not
just a self perpetuating thing that just keeps going on
its own. You know, it's not not like a cart
you push and it rolls forever. You got to continue
to put some energy to keep pushing it forwards, otherwise
eventually it stops rolling.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Do you ever have people start divorce and then realize
that maybe they should be doing counseling or should be
you know, having these conversations with each other.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Really depends, you know, it's hit or miss. Some have
tried counseling ahead of time. Some just when by time
they get to the point where they get to my
front door of my office, they don't want to even
consider it. I do, you know, based upon what I
hear from people, I do recommend you know, that they
get some individual counseling because at the end of the day,
(32:40):
you know, there's no negative stigma associated with it. And
if it's somebody that you can talk to who's not judgmental,
who will listen to you and allow you to kind
of work through it all and get you to a
better place, then why not. That's kind of my latest,
my latest take on therapy. And of course, you know,
with kids, better than ninety percent of the time, I say,
(33:05):
I would say almost one hundred percent of the time,
I will recommend that the parents, you'll get the kids
into some kind of therapy or counseling so that the
kids have a neutral party that they can once they
establish some type of rapport or trust with they can
express themselves freely without judgment.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
I really appreciate your time here for my audience. Keith
is an attorney located in Southfield, Michigan. What is your
company name?
Speaker 2 (33:31):
It's Keith them Nathan sent PLLLC.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Okay, what we've given today is a conversation about finances
and things that might be considerations in divorce. But this
is not in any way legal advice. This is for
educational purposes. And if you are in a divorce, considering
divorce whatever, you need to talk to a lawyer about
your particular situation. And of course, if that's where you
(33:55):
happen to be, you may want to call Keith. I
appreciate your time here to give us your wisdom, and
I look forward to having you again to talk about
some other aspects where law and finances intersect.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
I'd be happy to do it. It's always always a
pleasure to get to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Oh, you say the kindest things. And to all my listeners,
thank you so much for being here. You got this.
See Yah
Powered by Riverside FM. This is Marcie talks Money and Life.
I am Bunny Marcy, and I am thrilled to introduce
my guest today, my friend, attorney Keith Nathanson. Keith practices
family law, bankruptcy, litigation, and collections from his office in Southfield, Michigan.
(00:23):
Keith is a guy you call when you need legal help.
More specifically, he works with collections for both corporations and individuals,
credit report and credit score issues, prenups, divorce, custody, parenting, time, guardianship,
and a whole bunch of lawyer stuff. But with no
further ado, here's Keith.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Hey, Hi everybody.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
So, of course, because this is a financial podcast, I
am more interested in any of your financial areas. And
you cover so many things, I'm probably gonna have to
have you back a few times so that we don't
cover everything shallow and I'd like to go a little
bit deeper.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
That works for me. I'd love to talk, especially if
people are listening, you know, even if people aren't listening,
I love to talk anyway. So all good.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
So if you were to say, what are you in
the mood to talk about today of your financial aspects
of your legal practice, what interests you today? It's been
the wheel of.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
The financial ramifications of a divorce. It might be a
good place to start.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
That sounds great. So when two people decide, hey, we're
done with the marriage, obviously they want to have different
attorneys represent them, So one of them comes to you.
What goes from there? They knock on your door and say, hey,
I want a divorce.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
So I guess it kind of starts if they both
come to me, because Michigan recently has started something called
collaborative divorces. So if they agree on everything, you can
actually collaborateatively file a divorce and it sort of minimizes
the conflict, well it's supposed to anyway, and it allows
(02:09):
one lawyer to kind of act as the document prepare person.
I don't like them because it puts lawyers in a
pre precarious position. If that breaks down, then the lawyer
will find himself or herself kind of in the middle
of who they represent, and really they can't represent either
(02:30):
because you can't really pick a side in that instance.
So if we set aside the collaborative divorces from it
and just talk about when somebody comes and wants to
get a divorce, we really don't talk about the causes
for the divorce because Michigan has what are called no
fault divorces, So for purposes getting the divorce itself, you
don't have to prove any sort of fault, so it
(02:52):
minimizes the conflict between the parties and you don't have
to throw things out there. He said this, she did this.
He was being she was being He cheated, she cheated.
That stuff doesn't apply. And when you come into a divorce,
really the out of the gate when you file it,
where the division of property and debts starts, is at
(03:16):
a fifty to fifty mark, and the fault can kind
of push that one way or the other, because at
the end of the day, the court has to make
what's called an equitable division of property, meaning equitable meaning fair,
and the court can adjust that fairness or that equity
depending on the situation. So it doesn't usually get pushed
(03:38):
very far. People come in oftentimes with unrealistic expectations of
you know, I want ninety percent and I want the
other side to leave with their tennis shoes and five
dollars and that's all they get and I get everything else.
Never have seen it happen, probably never will see it happen.
So you know, we operate from that premise that it's
(03:58):
a it's going to be a fifty fifty split, and
sometimes that division is just as difficult as kind of
separating the people in the divorce and separating emotionally as well.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Now, what is the impact on that fifty to fifty
if one spouse came into the marriage with significantly more
assets or one spouse earns significantly more income.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
So when you come into the marriage with assets, so
if you bring a house into a divorce and the
house has a value of they'll just make up a
number one hundred thousand dollars when you walk in to
the marriage. If you own that house prior to the marriage,
that first hundred thousand out of the house, if it's
worth three hundred now comes out off the top and
(04:48):
goes back to the person who brought it in. However,
if someone brings a home into the marriage and then
or assets in the marriage and kind of come with
everything else in the marriage, then typically you're going to
go back to that fifty to fifty if you use
(05:09):
the money or the assets in the marital state and
not segregated them. So I mean a good example would
be as if you have a trust and you come
in with a trust that your parents gave you, and
you take the money from the trust and you throw
it in a joint bank account, and ten years later
you want to get a divorce and you say, wait
a second, I want that money I brought in from
(05:30):
the trust. Well, you've mixed it all up in the
pot of goo. That's the mayoral of state. You can't
separate anymore. But if I keep that trust separate and
I don't take that money and use it for the
mayoral of state and keep it as my own, I'm
most likely going to walk out of the divorce with
my trust money that I started with. Of course, that
(05:54):
gets muddled a little bit. If the parties enter into
a pre nuptial agreement where it contracts they agree that
party one gets to keep their million dollars of things
that they've brought into the marriage. They're going to get
to take their million dollars worth of things out of
the marriage, provided that the prenup is structured properly, has
been maintained properly, And again you don't have that commingling
(06:18):
over the course of the marriage with respect to the assets.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Now, I know when I talk about wills that I
tell people because of law changes and whatever else, you
should be updating your will every five years or so,
depending on what's been going on in your life because
things change and the laws change and whatever else. But
do prenups need to be updated when you say maintaining it?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Uh No, No. Typically if it is contractually sound when
it's entered into then it's a valid and binding contractual
agreement between the parties. So somebody had a certain ball
of assets prior to the marriage and they've sort of
taken that out of play with the prenup, though that
(07:05):
ball of assets is still out of play. If some
of those assets have disappeared, okay, they're gone now that
they don't exist anymore. But I mean, there are things
you need to do. So if there's real property, obviously
you don't want to take sell a piece of the
prenup property and then take the proceeds from that and
invest that into marital property because you run the risk
(07:28):
of losing that protected status of the assets there. Prenups
are a really finicky thing that have to be done
correctly on the front side. There are some check marks
you have to hit when you draft and you execute,
and you present a prenup to somebody before it's signed.
(07:49):
Obviously they have to have the opportunity to take that
document to their own lawyer who can look at it
and tell me, you know, yeah or nay, you know
it's a great idea or terrible idea, don't sign it.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Okay. So if you're getting divorced, you have different assets.
You brought assets in, they have your name on them,
and you don't mingle those assets. But while you're married,
you have a joint account, and one of the spouse's
works or earns more than the other spouse, but everything
goes into that shared account, so it doesn't matter that
(08:21):
shared account has whatever it has. Theoretically, it's going to
get split in themental Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Much the same as any other personal property or real property.
Even if one party works and the other doesn't. It's
still considered marital property if it's accumulated or acquired during
the marriage. Same would work for.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Debt as well, And that goes for like retirement assets,
which are always in one name, so they're never co mingled.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Right, So typically those are divided, including employer provided benefits
such as a four oh one K or a KYO,
or a pension or a profit sharing plan. So those
are actually divided by a court order that gives one
half of the contribution from party A to party B.
(09:13):
But again, if you come into a marriage and you're
ten years into a four to oh one K or
ten years into a pension, and you're married for ten
the first ten years prior to the marriage would belong
to that person solely, and just the division would be
done to the second half or that other ten years
(09:35):
of accumulation into that retirement plan during the.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
So you need accounts involved when you're when you're doing
the legals for divorce, I mean if.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
The state warrants it. Yes, Typically the court orders for
managed plans like a four to h one K or
a pension or profit sharing plan, there's a separate order
that gets entered at the end of the case, and
then that order or is actually served upon the plan
administrator and it basically tells them what should be divided
and the framework, and they do all the numbers internally.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Would you say most divorces you see are not necessarily amicable,
but they're able to work through the things and find
that division or do they all find things to fight about.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
So they're going to give the lawyer answer of it depends.
It depends how much acrimony, how much conflict we start
off with. I think that you know, people start at
a certain level of conflict in there are certain people
who will magnify that conflict during the divorce. There are
(10:47):
other people who will kind of start to move away
and realize that they're going to be on their own
and maybe they should let go of the anger because
it doesn't really serve any purpose. And also money is
always a big motivating factor because more fighting, more expensive divorce,
(11:08):
more expensive divorce, less money at the end for the parties,
and eventually, you know, you wind up. I mean, there's
a saying in the law business that the mark of
a good settlement is when both parties walk away equally unhappy.
So you know, eventually you get to a point where
the case is mediated or it goes to trial, or
(11:29):
it's facilitated, or there's a flurry of settlement offers back
and forth, and most of the time people get to
the point where they're you know, they're unhappy and they
feel the other sides about as unhappy as they are,
and they realize that they need to just end it
and go away.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Okay, So the best divorces the lawyers make the least
amount of money.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
It depends on your definition of best. Not best for me,
but to effectuate the divorce. Yes, the less fighting in
the quicker you can get on your way and live
your life, the better off you're going to be.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
I have to imagine when people get to that point
of wanting a divorce, there's there's a lot of negative feelings.
They are one or both of them very much ready
to move on. So it's probably hard sometimes to get
them past that anger to the point of understanding, well,
this is affecting the dollars you're going to walk away
(12:28):
with two that you can fight to get a bigger percentage,
but it will be of a smaller pie.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Correct, And I'm really the percentages just don't vary that much.
You're talking So for a small divorce estate, you know,
another five percent you know if that nets you another
ten thousand dollars and you've had to spend thirty thousand
(12:55):
dollars in attorney fees to get it, you know, what's
the sense? I mean, really, I think A lot of
it depends on what brings them to the divorce. What
is the you know, what's the Well, there are many things,
and it's not just one thing that happens one time there,
but there's usually a trigger event or a catalyst that
(13:20):
you know, ultimately brings them to say enough is enough
for that you know, they reach their breaking point. I guess.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Okay, And obviously, if you don't have kids, or your
kids are grown ups, it's got to be easier than
if you have children under eighteen that you're still responsible
for when when the divorce occurs.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yeah, it's definitely much easier. I mean that, you know,
having the kids just adds another, you know, layer of
complexity with custody and parenting time and vacations and child
support and who pays for what and when, so you know,
pile that on top of trying to divide up your
assets and depth, and it definitely makes it more complicated.
(14:02):
And a lot of times that's a lot of the
source of the conflict in the divorce. It's less about
the money and more about the kids.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Or the dog or the whatever.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Sometimes sometimes or the silverware set.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
From an accounting standpoint, because that's my background, and that's
my personality and who I am. I look at it
and it's like, what can I do to maximize the
dollars I get? Irregardless of you. So this is what
I need, this is what's reasonable for me to have,
and what I'm reasonably gonna get. It's not worth the
(14:46):
time and the effort to get such a small return.
But I imagine it's hard to get people to hear.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
That, yeah, well you are of a rare breed because
people do not ever perform that lotical analysis. You can't
you cannot use the word divorce and logic generally in
the same sentence.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
I imagine not I'm not divorced, so I haven't had to
go through that, you know, getting through that that emotional
part of what that is. Do people come back often
to restate their custody, parenting time, or or the money
that you get for the divorce, you know, continuing money
(15:30):
when you have the custody of the children.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
So the when you get a divorce and you get
the final paperwork, the property settlement is final. That's a
it's a done deal that you get what you get,
you give what you give, You assume the liabilities that
you assume custody and parenting time and support are always
(15:53):
subject to change if there's a change in circumstances, and thankfully,
the law usually or for the most part, recognizes that
and allows people to come back when those changes happen. So,
depending you know, on the ages of the kids, you're
(16:13):
gonna be in a much different situation. If you've got
a couple of preschoolers, I mean, the situation kind of
shifts to something else when they start school, and then
they get to be teenagers or you know, preteen or
you know, they get to be seven or nine years
old and you know, sports are in the mix. Now
you're shifting into another, you know lane. And then they
(16:36):
get to be teenagers. You know, that's a whole another
thing all on its own. And then they get to be,
you know, towards the end of high school. You know,
they become these semi independent sort of adults, and the
situation changes again. So typically those are the things that
people will come back for, you know, when when there's
(16:59):
those changes. In Michigan under the law, I'm pretty sure
it's statewide. I know for sure it's Oakland County. You're
entitled to have your support automatically reviewed every two years,
so the support can change based on the number of overnights.
If you know, your divorce papers say that you're to
get a certain amount, but you're only using sixty percent
(17:21):
of that and that's the way it's been for three years,
or you know, if the payer's income goes up or down,
or the recipients income goes up or down. Those are
all situations where there be a change in circumstance, or
if the health insurance premiums change, that could impact the
numbers too. Thankfully, in Michigan, our support is calculated according
(17:47):
to a formula that's actually written into the statute. So
you literally take this formula, just plug all the stuff
in and it spits out a number. So for CPA,
it's like it's beautiful because it's you know, you cant
what it's going to be. That court can always deviate
if there's a reason, but you know, i'd say better
than ninety eight percent of the time, the court will
(18:08):
follow the recommendations or what the guidelines actually state. The
support should be.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Well. On the TV shows and whatever else, people are
always hiding millions of dollars overseas or wherever, or the
pricey artwork or how do you deal with that?
Speaker 2 (18:28):
So here, when you file a case and the other
side gets the papers served on them, that we mandatorily
require a form that requires you disclose all of your assets.
I mean, when a divorce case proceeds, you have a
phase of the case where it's discovery, and you can
send out interrogatories, which are questions for people to answer.
(18:51):
You say, you don't wear your bank accounts. What are
the numbers, what bank are they at? How much are
there in them? You can ask them to produce documents
and say, hey, give you your last twelve months of
bank statements. But ultimately, if someone hides something and doesn't
disclose it, you know, unless you find it. I mean,
you could hire a private investigator, you know, some type
of person to kind of do an investigation to find it.
(19:14):
But at least there's there's a remedy because if you
knowingly conceal assets in context of a divorce and the
other party finds out, they can come back to court
and tell the judge they found an asset, and the
judge has the discretion to award the entirety of that
asset to the other person and take it away completely.
(19:37):
So that million dollars that's hidden in an offshore account,
you find it a month after the divorce and come
back to court. The judge'll order that million dollars be
turned over to you because you found it.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Oh wow, So it's a it's a pretty steep game
you're playing you if you try to hide assets like that.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Yeah, I mean, and you signed things under oath too,
So there's always the the penalty of perjury, which is
a nice little felony in Michigan, so that cann't have
a relatively negative impact on your life to get convicted
of it.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
So you are a Michigan lawyer practicing predominantly in Oakland County.
Do you have any idea if the laws regarding divorce
are significantly different in other states or that's really so
outside of your Baileywick give no idea.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
So I know a couple other states generally what they do.
So California and Washington State are actually community property states,
so it's very, very different from Michigan. Community property basically
means that anything that comes into the marriage is automatically
considered community property and subject to division in the estate.
(20:50):
Even if you bring in you know, your trust fund
into the marriage, hence the need for a prenuptial agreement. Generally,
from what I know, most of the precepts that we
use here, they're pretty universal. Most states are going to
(21:11):
equitably divide property. We have a statute that defines twelve
factors for awarding custody to parents. Other states have similar
but somewhat different and have more factors, or they're expounded
a little bit. The court has a little bit more
of analysis, some have less. So you know, from what
(21:34):
I say or only applies to Michigan, So your mileage
definitely may vary if you're in another state listening to this.
So your best advice is to either look up the
statue or call a lawyer who does family law if
you're considering a divorce in another state, to kind of
figure out financially where you stand based on your scenario.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Do you have any divorce stories that you would be
able to share with us? Obviously any names totally changed,
but anything that came happened that was so unique it
is worth telling me.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
I can tell you a quick couple just to illustrate
how people just sometimes go out of their minds over insignificant,
insignificant things. In a divorce. I had a divorce where
the people were fighting over a set of Ikea silverware,
I mean off the shelf, like go there, it's in
(22:28):
the silverware department at Ikea. And they were spending hundreds,
if not thousands of dollars argu I mean, they couldn't
agree about anything. But so this was one of the
points of contention, and I told the client, I like,
I said, enough, just like, stop with the silverware. I said,
if you stop fighting about the silverware, I will credit
(22:50):
you all the fees spent arguing about this silly Ikea silverware.
And not only that, I will personally dry I have
to Ikea and buy you brand new in the box
a set of the same silverware. If they have something better,
you could come with me and pick out something you like.
(23:10):
And she wasn't having it. She wanted to fight, so
they continued to fight over the silverware. So they're that
story number one just about how crazy people get over things.
Story number two is a little bit better, worse. So
there was I was involved in this super contentious divorce
where the parties couldn't get along. I mean, they couldn't
(23:32):
you know, agree that you know, this is their right
hand or that you know today is Saturday. They would
fight about it. So they had the divorce was going
on and on and on. I mean, they couldn't be
in the same room together. And so we wound up
going to the court over a bird. And I can't
remember whether it was a cockatoo or a parrot or
(23:57):
I don't remember. There was a tropical bird, beautiful bird,
and wound up getting an order that said that the
husband had to turn over the bird to the wife,
and they couldn't figure out where to turn it over, so,
you know, just like like a showdown at the ok Corral.
We agreed to meet at the courthouse steps in front
(24:19):
from the Oakland County Courthouse building at noon, and so
I was near the entrance with the client, and the
other lawyer walked up with her client, and these people
got within two hundred feet of each other, and she
started yelling at him, and I could see in his
(24:39):
hand that he had a paper bag, large paper bag
about this big, and I thought to myself, this is
not going to end well. This is definitely not going
to end well. And they started yelling each other and
yelling each other, got a little closer. She started with
where's my effing bird? I want my effing bird. And
he responded back with f you, you're a bitch, and
(25:03):
a whole bunch of other expletives. And they got closer
and closer, and she said, you were supposed to bring
my effing bird. Where's my effing bird? And he's got
a paper bag in his hands. I thought, oh god,
he killed the bird and this is going to hander
a dead bird and we're gonna have he have something gone.
He goes, you want your bird, here's your bird, and
(25:24):
he proceeded to open the bag and off went the
bird flew away. So this tropical bird went off into
the horizon, at which point I don't know who charged
to They started wrestling and throwing punches, and then a
few seconds, I don't know, I got into that thing
where you know, when you're stressed, you have time dilation.
(25:45):
It felt like, you know, like three hours. It probably
was like twenty seconds, and the Oakland County Sheriff came
out and pried them apart and promptly arrested both of them,
which you know, ties into really good. Another adage that
you know, I mean, I kind of I have tell
is a joke to new lawyers that I mentor, but
you know it's kind of half true. So it's the
(26:05):
three rules of successful law practice. So you know, rule
number one is that gets your money up front. Rule
number two is that the client goes to jail, the
attorney goes to lunch. And rule number three, of course,
is get your money up front. So kind of kind
of ties in. And for those of you out there
who are wondering, I got my money up front, so
(26:27):
all good, and I did go to lunch.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
So I have to imagine that the party that released
the bird head additional charges or something.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Against I haven't told you that story before.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
It sounds familiar, though, I have to say I didn't
know if it was going to be a dead birder
or free bird.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yeah, that's that's just two of many. You know that
just I've been doing this for thirty five years, so
you know, my tiny little nugget of a brain is
just filled with with war stories.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Right. But I have to imagine that, you know, someone says, okay,
you get the plate, and then they go and break
the plate, that there is some some fine, some penalty whatever,
But with both of them getting arrested, I feel bad
for the bird because this is not a tropical climate
here in Michigan.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Whereabouts of the bird art you'll still unknown to.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
This day, right, And if it's a parent, it could
be fairly long.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Lived, right exactly.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
And I don't know how long a cockatoo lives, but
parents live pretty long.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah, So, well, who knows fate. Unknown of the bird
parties eventually got divorced. They're probably still fighting to this day. Thankfully,
I'm not involved.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
When you started practicing law, did you think you'd be
handling divorce and these types of manners or did you
have a different kind of plan in place.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
So my original plan out of law school was to
take the patent bar because I have a very well,
as you know, very strong science background. Well for those
of you who don't know, so, I have a double
bachelor's in genetics and cellio molecular biology. And way back
in the days before electricity, when I went to college,
(28:10):
we used to have to describe everything on a stone tablet.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Because that's why he's much older than I am.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Yeah, I think because the paper hadn't even been invented yet.
You know, eventually that invented a printing press and things
got a little easier. But back then I got out
of college right at the cusp of bioengineering, I like,
right on the forefront of computers and bioengineering, and so
I originally planned to take the patent bar and I
(28:39):
was really had my mindset that I would go write patents,
you know, for pharmaceutical companies and you know, bioengineering firms,
although I don't think many existed at that time. But
I kind of had an idea of what I wanted
to do. But I got talked out of that and
went into a firm where we did divorce and bankruptcy work.
So I just kind of got you know, and I
(29:00):
have been clerking there anyway, So just kind of dove
right in and dove into the fray. And here I am,
decades later, still still in the fray. It explains, you know,
why all the hair is missing here the you know
this this is like stress baldness.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
I like to call it. You do know I'm only
sharing this as audio, So no, you could tell people
you had a full head of hair and nobody would know.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
How Yeah, okay, I have a full even head of
hair that that is not true. But I would like
you all to imagine me with a full ahead of hair,
because if you guys all envision it, then of course
my hair will grow back.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Well, you regularly get mistaken for Jason Momoa, so.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
I mean, yeah, exactly, not so much.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Well, but you've made a nice living doing this, and
it is certainly a service that that is needed, and
so you do. You do good things for people who
need you in a very stressful time in their lives.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
That's true. And probably within the last I don't know,
decade or decade and half, I've come to realize that
while ethically I have an obligation to my clients, I
also concurrently in divorce cases where there are children, I
really feel that I have an ethical obligation to make
(30:17):
sure that the kids are okay or as okay as
I can facilitate during the divorce and you know, getting
the people to the other side, because really that's the
thing that is really begun to concern me, you know,
over that period of time, maybe it's been twenty years,
I don't even know how long. So I kind of,
(30:38):
while I fulfill my ethical duty to the client, I
always keep, you know, half an eye focused on on
the kids as well, because they're really the ones who
suffer the ramification of the all the negative goo that
happens in a divorce.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
It's it's important, and you know, there's there's so much
value in what you do. I mean, it would be
lovely if we could wave our wand and everyone only
married the perfect person for them and there were never
any divorces, and fortunately there'd still be a whole lot
of law for you to practice. But we can't. We
can't change that. The best we can do is the
best we can for all the parties involved in it.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Now that that's true. I mean, you know, marriages is
a fragile thing. It is a fragile spinning wheel that
you need to constantly put energy into to keep it spinning.
And you know, if I just you know, whax about
this for a second. I think that maybe people lose
sight of that over long term marriages, or you know,
(31:44):
sometimes not even that long term, that they lose sight
of it. That it's not just a marriage, is not
just a self perpetuating thing that just keeps going on
its own. You know, it's not not like a cart
you push and it rolls forever. You got to continue
to put some energy to keep pushing it forwards, otherwise
eventually it stops rolling.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Do you ever have people start divorce and then realize
that maybe they should be doing counseling or should be
you know, having these conversations with each other.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Really depends, you know, it's hit or miss. Some have
tried counseling ahead of time. Some just when by time
they get to the point where they get to my
front door of my office, they don't want to even
consider it. I do, you know, based upon what I
hear from people, I do recommend you know, that they
get some individual counseling because at the end of the day,
(32:40):
you know, there's no negative stigma associated with it. And
if it's somebody that you can talk to who's not judgmental,
who will listen to you and allow you to kind
of work through it all and get you to a
better place, then why not. That's kind of my latest,
my latest take on therapy. And of course, you know,
with kids, better than ninety percent of the time, I say,
(33:05):
I would say almost one hundred percent of the time,
I will recommend that the parents, you'll get the kids
into some kind of therapy or counseling so that the
kids have a neutral party that they can once they
establish some type of rapport or trust with they can
express themselves freely without judgment.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
I really appreciate your time here for my audience. Keith
is an attorney located in Southfield, Michigan. What is your
company name?
Speaker 2 (33:31):
It's Keith them Nathan sent PLLLC.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Okay, what we've given today is a conversation about finances
and things that might be considerations in divorce. But this
is not in any way legal advice. This is for
educational purposes. And if you are in a divorce, considering
divorce whatever, you need to talk to a lawyer about
your particular situation. And of course, if that's where you
(33:55):
happen to be, you may want to call Keith. I
appreciate your time here to give us your wisdom, and
I look forward to having you again to talk about
some other aspects where law and finances intersect.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
I'd be happy to do it. It's always always a
pleasure to get to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Oh, you say the kindest things. And to all my listeners,
thank you so much for being here. You got this.
See Yah
Host
Marci Grossman
Popular Podcasts
Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2
Season Two Out Now! Law & Order: Criminal Justice System tells the real stories behind the landmark cases that have shaped how the most dangerous and influential criminals in America are prosecuted. In its second season, the series tackles the threat of terrorism in the United States. From the rise of extremist political groups in the 60s to domestic lone wolves in the modern day, we explore how organizations like the FBI and Joint Terrorism Take Force have evolved to fight back against a multitude of terrorist threats.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.