May 21, 2025 • 23 mins
Let's talk about vocational rehabilitation, injured workers returning to workforce, and wage earning capacity.
Karen Grossberg of VoCounsel LLC is a vocational rehabilitation counselor, a board certified vocational expert, and a psychotherapist. She works with injured workers to help them return to the workforce, offers forensic evaluations on various work related legal matters, and is an expert witness in matters regarding wage earning capacity and costs of attendant care.
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MoneyMarci
Karen Grossberg of VoCounsel LLC is a vocational rehabilitation counselor, a board certified vocational expert, and a psychotherapist. She works with injured workers to help them return to the workforce, offers forensic evaluations on various work related legal matters, and is an expert witness in matters regarding wage earning capacity and costs of attendant care.
Follow Marci Talks Money (and Life) wherever you get your podcasts to get the episodes as they post.
Visit MoneyMarci.com to check out other financial literacy resources.
Don’t forget to subscribe, leave us a review, and stay tuned.
MoneyMarci
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Powered by Riverside f M.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hello, welcome to Marcie talks money and Life. I'm money, Marcy.
I am fortunate to know some wonderful people with incredible
and interesting careers. My guest today is Karen Grosberg of
Vocouncil LLC. Karen is a vocational rehabilitation counselor, a board
certified vocational expert, and a psychotherapist. She is also a
(00:28):
vocational expert for Social Security. As a vocational rehabilitation counselor,
Karen works with injured workers to assist them in assessing
their skills and returning to the workforce in a medically
suitable position. She also offers forensic evaluations addressing various legal
matters and provides expert witness testimony regarding wage earning, capacity
(00:51):
and cost of attendant care. Karen is a trained medical
social worker and began her career in hospitals dealing with
patients and families and crisis. Because of her education and training,
she is able to understand the clinical, medical, and psychiatric
presentation of clients and offer effective vocational rehabilitation services. Vocational
(01:12):
opinions take into account clinical issues as well as an
assessment of an individual's transferable skills in order to provide
an objective analysis. Now, I don't know about you, but
to me, this sounds very specialized, very unique career. How
did you end up doing this morning?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
By the way, Marcy, thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
For hi Karen. Everybody welcome Karen.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
It's a kind of complicated path.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Actually, when I originally started, I got an MBA and
was going into healthcare administration. Ultimately, after I did a
medical social extint, I had kids and was at home,
and after five months of being at home, realizing I couldn't,
I started back part time and a friend of mine
told me about this vocational rehab gig and I started
(01:59):
that in about two thousand and one and have built
it from there.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, you make it sound like nothing, but this is
such a unique career. I've never never heard of anyone
else doing this. I love talking to therapists in general,
just because so much baggage revolves around money one way
or another. But this really is putting it all together
and as well as into the physical component of what
you're able to do, and the emotional of what you're
(02:25):
emotionally able to do, and all these other parts into it,
and eventually it comes to are you able to earn money?
How much money can you earn? All of these kind
of things. So putting the MBA and the financial aspects
of what you learn there into all these other things
is fascinating.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Thank you. Yeah, there's really there aren't a lot of
voccasional counselors. A lot of people work public sector, like
with Department of Rehab Services and such. Aren't a lot
of people at least in Michigan and even nationally they
do the forensic piece. It's a relatively newly evolving area
that it applies to do issues with regards to divorces
(03:01):
and assessing if there's a party that's either under employed
or somebody who has been out of the workforce for
a long period of time. So there's a lot of
relatively new applications of the career and is a very
it is.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
A very specialized area for sure.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Well, in regards to divorces, I recall after their divorce,
or I guess shortly before their divorce, he transitioned from
a high paying field to a low paying field and
obviously that impacted their well, what he could pay for
child support and other aspects. Would they call you in
to say, hey, he's he's not because this was twenty
(03:40):
five years ago or more. They would call you in
and say, hey, he's not making what he could be making.
This is a personal choice and he needs to get
back with the program.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Absolutely, people do that intentionally forst fight, and people do
that because they just want a career change. However, when
somebody is getting divorced and you're looking at never one
child support and or potential spousal support, people do that
make those sorts of changes, and it has implications long
term for the other spouse. So I've been brought in
(04:12):
to address issues. I would say that's an issue of underemployment,
and so provide I can provide an opinion based on
you know what's going on in the labor market, using
labor market data and availability of employment to determine what
someone can earn if they have left an area of
work for whatever reason, and provide an opinion. Again, my
(04:34):
opinion is whether they can earn this money. Obviously it's
an ultimate decision of the court or of arbitration or
the process to determine. I can say that mister Smith
is now working earning twelve dollars an hour, whereas he
had a position earning forty dollars an hour previously, I
can say his capacity is now to earn, based on
(04:56):
the current income of that field, to earn forty two
dollars an hour, and that's my opinion. It then goes
up for negotiation and it often more times than not,
ends up in a settlement, which is the ideal thing
is that people can come to a determination of what's
a reasonable amount of money to allocate for those spousal
(05:19):
support and or children's benefits as a part of divorce.
So it's a useful tool that is based on data
as opposed to just speculation. If you just leave it
up to attorneys to discuss.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
The attorneys one or the other attorney would be contacting
you to do the evaluation right.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
And it's an evaluation, and it's an objective evaluation, meaning
I have no relationship with anybody here, and my job
is purely to assess how much money somebody can earn
given their training, education, experience, terbbal skills, if they have
medical psychological impairments that affect their work. All those things
(06:00):
are factored into my analysis and then it's paired with
data from the Department of Labor and the data is
very much vetted data that is obtained by the Department
of Labor contacting employers across a region, and I can
pinpoint it to you know, like in the Detroit metropolitan area,
(06:22):
there's a specific area that I can pinpoint wages based
on that area and job type. So I can get
a very targeted range of employment, a.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Range of salaries and provide that in a report.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
So I can say that if somebody has ten years
of experience, I would place them between x dollar and
X dollar an hour, and that's what I provide to
the attorneys who ultimately use.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
That as a tool.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
I imagine that that is a useful and stressful piece
of information because people do, for various reasons, change their careers,
and sometimes to change your career you have to take
a salary cut and the timing So someone could innocently,
not necessarily innocently, but intentionally for their own personal growth,
(07:07):
change your career and take a salary cut and eventually,
long term it would be something. But if the timing
is wrong, you still owe it to the other party,
whatever the support is and whatever the arrangement. So I
can't imagine that's an easy decision. For the judger, the arbitter,
whoever that is, to ultimately make that decision.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Well, also sometimes I do a two tiered analysis. I mean,
in the scenario you're talking about, again, it's up to
what I'm asked to do and what questions I'm asked
to answer. But it's not uncommon for me to look
at a variety of transferable occupations and if somebody has
opted to change professions and they're earning less money, I
(07:47):
can also from that project out how much they would
be earning in three to five years or beyond. So
I can give projections and wages so that when the
trier of fact, whoever that is, or whoever is doing
the negotiations, can say, Okay, well, yeah, you took us,
made a pivot in your career, and you're now earning
fifteen dollars an hour. But based on this opinion, it
(08:08):
is expected that in three to five years you're going
to be at the median wage.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
And this is what the median wage is at three
to five years.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So sometimes if there's a negotiation, it could be a
step to negotiation where okay, today you're going to pay
this and in the future you're going to pay a
different number because it's expected you're going.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
To be earning more.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
It's just so fascinating to me. Of course, I'm a
numbers person, so anytime you say projections, I get all excited.
And you do this kind of evaluation not just for divorces,
but for workers comp and auto injuries and other life
situations that happen that obviously someone gets derailed from their
original track.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Correct and also and also I do attending care. So
that's another area that's especially with auto no fault, is
if somebody is head injured or spinal cord injury and
needs attendant care long term, how do you project out
those costs or how do you reimburse for those kinds
of costs, especially if a family member is providing the service.
(09:05):
That's just another area that I provide opinions on.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Oh okay, So if a family member is providing the
service for this, they would come to someone similar to
you maybe to determine what is the appropriate amount that
they should be paid for the service they're providing, since
they're not going to an external whether that would be
a nurse or just an attendant to provide those services.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
I guess the question is which side are you called
in or could it be either side in any of
these cases?
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Well, I have the ability to be called in on
any side of any case. I tend to be called
on more often than not, at least on the comp
side on the defense team primarily, and again I'm not
opinion is my opinion, but is primarily because I believe
that people are better off emotionally, psychologically, fiscally, every way working.
(09:58):
So because of that, my opinion is very much work oriented,
and I like to envision that most people have the capacity.
So for that reason, plaintiff's side tends to not be
so happy.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
With my opinions.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Okay, so they're not calling you in to say, hey,
this is the limit of what this person can be earning,
or this is their limitations. You're called in from the
other side of their ability, rather than their limitations of
what their opportunities might be.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
And I bet some of the time they're surprised that,
you know, they called you in to talk about abilities,
and you're like, yeah, well, that's just this is their limitation,
because if you're evaluating it objectively, you're looking at the
whole picture and having both sides of it, both as
a therapist and the business background of an MBA. You've
got a range of experience and knowledge to pull from
(10:54):
that makes you unique.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Well, thank you. Sometimes my opinion isn't what.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Whoever retained me hoped for because I can't make someone skilled.
I can't make somebody with a deficit not have a deficit.
I can't make somebody who lives three hundred miles away
from a metropolitan area have thirty thousand job opportunities. So
there are facts in a case, and the facts are
what the facts are, So I can sometimes pull a
(11:22):
rabbit out of a hat, and other times it's not
so easy. So it's really I am very honest with
the people that retain me about my opinion, and I
give it the best shot possible. But in some cases
it's not reasonable. People aren't going to earn what they
earned before an injury, and they're not going to be
(11:43):
able to have as many opportunities. So that's what I say.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
I think it still think it's fascinating, But you also
still do therapy that is outside of this range, and
in your therapy practice, do you often have to kind
of bring this knowledge base into it because people are
expecting something from their spouse or from themselves in terms
of income or how they relate to money that is
(12:07):
beyond what they had realized.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Actually very interesting because I'm doing therapy in part because
I'm often evaluating people on the forensic side that have
psychological problems, and I have physicians that disable people because
they have major depression, which I find fascinating because to me,
(12:29):
the worst thing is to disable somebody for depression because
you're then relegating them to isolation, and that is the
worst thing to do with somebody with depression. It's better
that they do something and have a schedule in most cases.
But when I testify now, because I am doing psychotherapy
and I do have a wide variety of diagnoses that
I'm seeing, I can't comment medically on somebody because I
(12:53):
haven't evaluated in them in that capacity, but I can
comment on whether I think it's a reasonable thing to
disable somebody because of their mental health status. On the
other side, in therapy, it's very fascinating because I'm seeing
quite a few people that are twenty somethings that are
struggling to figure out their careers. So my background is
(13:15):
really helpful because I can help with interviews I can
help with, you know, anxiety around interviews, how to figure
out their next steps. So it's really I'm using those
I call it my day work to really affect my
evening therapy sessions because it's been very useful in negotiating
those sorts of issues that my patients are having, and
(13:38):
there's a lot of them. In terms of salary. How
do you go into an interview and talk about salary?
I mean, it's a very stressful topic for people. So
I actually in some cases have gone to the Department
of Labor and pulled wages and talked about it and
how to approach those things because it is, you know,
when you're talking about twenty something, approaching money and talking
about wages can be overwhelming. So it has played a
(14:01):
factor in the work that I do as a therapist.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
I think talking about wages is stressful for most people.
And when you go and apply for jobs and sometimes
they list the range and other times they don't list
the range, and then you go in for the interview
and they're like, so how much do you think you
should make? And it's like, well, what do you feel
this position is worth? You're hiring for this position, you
shouldn't be putting that onto the person applying because there
(14:26):
are so many things that they're not aware of and
what offers you may or may not be making.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Which is really helpful for anyone who's in therapy with
me or who knows me, because I can get the
wages from the Department of Labor, and based on what
I know about them, I can tell them what their
wage range should be. So when they go in, I've
literally copied the page off of the Department of Labor
with website the range and marked where I believe they
(14:51):
should be. So if they're asked, they can say they
spoke to a Vocational Board certified vocational expert and this
is where she.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Plays as my wage.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Something anyone can do. Go to that website or is
that something that not everyone has access to?
Speaker 3 (15:05):
Everyone can go to the Department of Labor.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
It's a published and updated site. The twenty twenty four
wages just became available. It's the only thing is it's
a lagging indicator. So the twenty twenty four wages just
became available in the last few weeks. I just saw
them for the first time in a report that I did.
So Yes, you can go to the US Department of
(15:27):
Labor Bureau of Labor Statistics and pull up wages, narrow
it by specific employment types, and then you can narrow
it by parts of the country and even down to
like the Detroit metropolitan area or whatever metropolitan or even
if you're not in a metropolitan area, there's other measures,
Like in Michigan, there's the remainder of the state. It's
(15:50):
kind of like anything that doesn't fit into the other categories.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
That's fascinating because I didn't know about that. I have
various places to gain resources. Robert Half put out wage ranges,
and indeed in the job Sites list that, but I
never thought of going to the Department of Labor.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Well, the Department of Labor is data that's vetted.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
I mean, there's statisticians that are managing the sources. They
go out and sample employers and updated and the at
least the wages are updated annually.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
And because it's vetted.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
And it's used for policy in the United States, theoretically
it is probably the best most reliable data that I
can rely on to project what someone's going to earn.
I don't know necessarily where other sources get a lot
of other sources like indeed might pull some of their
data from.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
The Department of Labor, but I'm not entirely.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Sometimes those sites use self reports and so then it's
not vetted, it's not reliable, it's not generalizable, So it
doesn't go through those standards because it's going to people
that are in a report are going to be like
either earned high or low, and you know they're either
angry or delighted, and so you're missing a whole lot
(17:06):
of data there.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
The Department of US Department of Labor lists it. They
tell you what the percentiles.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Are, so it's it's more reasonably reliable and generalizable.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Okay, So that goes against the ninety percent of statistics
are made up. They actually you know their statistics are good, right.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Because they actually send surveys to employers.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
So it's done.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
And I don't know what their pattern is, but they
have a methodology and an approach and that's what they
do continuously.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
So if someone listening was thinking, Wow, this sounds like
an interesting field and I'd like to go into it,
what suggestions would you have for.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Them, Well, I would say that there aren't many There
aren't many of us that do what I do. So
it's a very narrow field. There are programs that focus
on vocational rehabilitation. Those programs don't ness necessarily focus on
the forensic side. It focuses on helping people get back
to work. You can go into social work and also
(18:07):
you know, social workers have tremendous transferable skills to do
vocational rehabilitation counseling, and there are other counseling areas that
you can ultimately get, but it's you have to pretty
much get a master's degree in one of those areas
and that prepares you to be a vocational rehabilitation counselor
if you take the appropriate certification exams. The forensic piece
(18:27):
is a whole another skill set and preparation. I mean,
you need the vocational rehabilitation is the basis of course,
but no one really trains you on how to testify.
That's kind of by fire, if I'm completely honest, And
you know, maneuvering the legal system takes years and years
of experience to understand how to respond to that. So
(18:50):
you have to find someone to mentor you. And that's
challenging because there aren't many people that do this work.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
But is there need for more people to do this work.
Is there opportunity for.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Someone There's always opportunity for somebody good, But I don't
know that. I think there's a at least in work
comp it's the number of people that are taking work
comp is shrinking, so there's less and less work comp work.
But like I said, it's developing in other areas. The
forensic areas are developing. So I think that I've gotten
(19:20):
called to other states to do work. So obviously there
aren't people in other states to do this, so there
must be some shortfall somewhere.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Okay, if you were to give yourself advice at whatever
age it was when you started making this transition to
this type of work, what twenty five, late twenties, maybe
would you say go for it or run?
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Like I said, I fell into it. I was going
to healthcare management. That's where I was heading. So it's
not somewhere where I even could envision at that point
what I was heading for. The forensic work is fascinating,
and it's the part of volk where I actually help
someone get back to work. Is very rewarding. When somebody
(20:03):
who has a work related injury, who wants to go
back to work and doesn't know what their next steps are.
I find that that's a very big issue, is that
people don't know they've been in manufacturing, say, and they
just don't know what other options they have available. So
working with somebody to explore their options and helping them
transition and then ultimately getting a job and moving on
(20:25):
with their lives. I mean, that's rewarding in the rare
cases I get to do that. It's nice to see.
So I have no regrets for the path I've taken,
and I think that a lot of what I do
is really interesting and challenging, which is nice.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
I mean, there's really not a dull day.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
From the outside, it sounds interesting and challenging. I have
known you for quite a few years, and I've never
fully understood the depth of everything that you do. And
I had to go really slowly in that introduction to
make sure I pronounced all those words. There's a lot
of big words in there.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Yeah, when people say what do you do, it's really
hard to explain.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Well.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I understand that a whole lot better now than I
used to. It's still as fascinating as I thought it was,
possibly even more fascinating, both from the forensic side, which
as an accountantdyke. It's basically an audit and the building
things onto, taking those next steps and stuff. I think
it's just I think it's amazing what you do. Both
(21:25):
sides of it, well, there's more than two sides, but
all the various sides, and especially the way they all
fit together, and of course how it's related to money,
because that's what I talk about. Have you got any
words of wisdom you would like to share before we wrap.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Up in terms of money specifically, I guess if anybody
in their twenties or thirties is listening to this and
looking for work and struggling, I would suggest to them
that they stop pointing and clicking and try to connect
with people, because pointing and clicking when everyone else is
doing the same thing is not necessary going to get
(22:01):
them the outcome that they want. And I know I
feel deeply how hard it is to pick up a
phone for a twenty something when they've lived by text
and by Instagram and Twitter, but pick up the phone
and call in network. It's just so valuable and so
underutilized today.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
And there's a lot of networking opportunities out there, whether
you start from finding a local group of like minded
or joining a group that is diversely minded, because the
opportunities are there when you go outside your comfort zone
and seeing whose hand you can shake and what opportunities
(22:42):
you can you can find or create.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Exactly, use LinkedIn, connect with somebody you're interested in, ask
to take them to coffee. I mean, there's just a
million and one things to do to get yourself noticed
beyond pointing and clicking.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
That is great advice, And this has been a really
fascinating conversation. Karen, Thank you so much for stopping by
and chatting and explaining everything you do. I really appreciate this.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
I'm honored to be on your list. Thanks for including me.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
You are too kind. Everybody out there, thanks for stopping by,
and remember you got this. Siya
Powered by Riverside f M.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hello, welcome to Marcie talks money and Life. I'm money, Marcy.
I am fortunate to know some wonderful people with incredible
and interesting careers. My guest today is Karen Grosberg of
Vocouncil LLC. Karen is a vocational rehabilitation counselor, a board
certified vocational expert, and a psychotherapist. She is also a
(00:28):
vocational expert for Social Security. As a vocational rehabilitation counselor,
Karen works with injured workers to assist them in assessing
their skills and returning to the workforce in a medically
suitable position. She also offers forensic evaluations addressing various legal
matters and provides expert witness testimony regarding wage earning, capacity
(00:51):
and cost of attendant care. Karen is a trained medical
social worker and began her career in hospitals dealing with
patients and families and crisis. Because of her education and training,
she is able to understand the clinical, medical, and psychiatric
presentation of clients and offer effective vocational rehabilitation services. Vocational
(01:12):
opinions take into account clinical issues as well as an
assessment of an individual's transferable skills in order to provide
an objective analysis. Now, I don't know about you, but
to me, this sounds very specialized, very unique career. How
did you end up doing this morning?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
By the way, Marcy, thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
For hi Karen. Everybody welcome Karen.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
It's a kind of complicated path.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Actually, when I originally started, I got an MBA and
was going into healthcare administration. Ultimately, after I did a
medical social extint, I had kids and was at home,
and after five months of being at home, realizing I couldn't,
I started back part time and a friend of mine
told me about this vocational rehab gig and I started
(01:59):
that in about two thousand and one and have built
it from there.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, you make it sound like nothing, but this is
such a unique career. I've never never heard of anyone
else doing this. I love talking to therapists in general,
just because so much baggage revolves around money one way
or another. But this really is putting it all together
and as well as into the physical component of what
you're able to do, and the emotional of what you're
(02:25):
emotionally able to do, and all these other parts into it,
and eventually it comes to are you able to earn money?
How much money can you earn? All of these kind
of things. So putting the MBA and the financial aspects
of what you learn there into all these other things
is fascinating.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Thank you. Yeah, there's really there aren't a lot of
voccasional counselors. A lot of people work public sector, like
with Department of Rehab Services and such. Aren't a lot
of people at least in Michigan and even nationally they
do the forensic piece. It's a relatively newly evolving area
that it applies to do issues with regards to divorces
(03:01):
and assessing if there's a party that's either under employed
or somebody who has been out of the workforce for
a long period of time. So there's a lot of
relatively new applications of the career and is a very
it is.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
A very specialized area for sure.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Well, in regards to divorces, I recall after their divorce,
or I guess shortly before their divorce, he transitioned from
a high paying field to a low paying field and
obviously that impacted their well, what he could pay for
child support and other aspects. Would they call you in
to say, hey, he's he's not because this was twenty
(03:40):
five years ago or more. They would call you in
and say, hey, he's not making what he could be making.
This is a personal choice and he needs to get
back with the program.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Absolutely, people do that intentionally forst fight, and people do
that because they just want a career change. However, when
somebody is getting divorced and you're looking at never one
child support and or potential spousal support, people do that
make those sorts of changes, and it has implications long
term for the other spouse. So I've been brought in
(04:12):
to address issues. I would say that's an issue of underemployment,
and so provide I can provide an opinion based on
you know what's going on in the labor market, using
labor market data and availability of employment to determine what
someone can earn if they have left an area of
work for whatever reason, and provide an opinion. Again, my
(04:34):
opinion is whether they can earn this money. Obviously it's
an ultimate decision of the court or of arbitration or
the process to determine. I can say that mister Smith
is now working earning twelve dollars an hour, whereas he
had a position earning forty dollars an hour previously, I
can say his capacity is now to earn, based on
(04:56):
the current income of that field, to earn forty two
dollars an hour, and that's my opinion. It then goes
up for negotiation and it often more times than not,
ends up in a settlement, which is the ideal thing
is that people can come to a determination of what's
a reasonable amount of money to allocate for those spousal
(05:19):
support and or children's benefits as a part of divorce.
So it's a useful tool that is based on data
as opposed to just speculation. If you just leave it
up to attorneys to discuss.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
The attorneys one or the other attorney would be contacting
you to do the evaluation right.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
And it's an evaluation, and it's an objective evaluation, meaning
I have no relationship with anybody here, and my job
is purely to assess how much money somebody can earn
given their training, education, experience, terbbal skills, if they have
medical psychological impairments that affect their work. All those things
(06:00):
are factored into my analysis and then it's paired with
data from the Department of Labor and the data is
very much vetted data that is obtained by the Department
of Labor contacting employers across a region, and I can
pinpoint it to you know, like in the Detroit metropolitan area,
(06:22):
there's a specific area that I can pinpoint wages based
on that area and job type. So I can get
a very targeted range of employment, a.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Range of salaries and provide that in a report.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
So I can say that if somebody has ten years
of experience, I would place them between x dollar and
X dollar an hour, and that's what I provide to
the attorneys who ultimately use.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
That as a tool.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
I imagine that that is a useful and stressful piece
of information because people do, for various reasons, change their careers,
and sometimes to change your career you have to take
a salary cut and the timing So someone could innocently,
not necessarily innocently, but intentionally for their own personal growth,
(07:07):
change your career and take a salary cut and eventually,
long term it would be something. But if the timing
is wrong, you still owe it to the other party,
whatever the support is and whatever the arrangement. So I
can't imagine that's an easy decision. For the judger, the arbitter,
whoever that is, to ultimately make that decision.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Well, also sometimes I do a two tiered analysis. I mean,
in the scenario you're talking about, again, it's up to
what I'm asked to do and what questions I'm asked
to answer. But it's not uncommon for me to look
at a variety of transferable occupations and if somebody has
opted to change professions and they're earning less money, I
(07:47):
can also from that project out how much they would
be earning in three to five years or beyond. So
I can give projections and wages so that when the
trier of fact, whoever that is, or whoever is doing
the negotiations, can say, Okay, well, yeah, you took us,
made a pivot in your career, and you're now earning
fifteen dollars an hour. But based on this opinion, it
(08:08):
is expected that in three to five years you're going
to be at the median wage.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
And this is what the median wage is at three
to five years.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So sometimes if there's a negotiation, it could be a
step to negotiation where okay, today you're going to pay
this and in the future you're going to pay a
different number because it's expected you're going.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
To be earning more.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
It's just so fascinating to me. Of course, I'm a
numbers person, so anytime you say projections, I get all excited.
And you do this kind of evaluation not just for divorces,
but for workers comp and auto injuries and other life
situations that happen that obviously someone gets derailed from their
original track.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Correct and also and also I do attending care. So
that's another area that's especially with auto no fault, is
if somebody is head injured or spinal cord injury and
needs attendant care long term, how do you project out
those costs or how do you reimburse for those kinds
of costs, especially if a family member is providing the service.
(09:05):
That's just another area that I provide opinions on.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Oh okay, So if a family member is providing the
service for this, they would come to someone similar to
you maybe to determine what is the appropriate amount that
they should be paid for the service they're providing, since
they're not going to an external whether that would be
a nurse or just an attendant to provide those services.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
I guess the question is which side are you called
in or could it be either side in any of
these cases?
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Well, I have the ability to be called in on
any side of any case. I tend to be called
on more often than not, at least on the comp
side on the defense team primarily, and again I'm not
opinion is my opinion, but is primarily because I believe
that people are better off emotionally, psychologically, fiscally, every way working.
(09:58):
So because of that, my opinion is very much work oriented,
and I like to envision that most people have the capacity.
So for that reason, plaintiff's side tends to not be
so happy.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
With my opinions.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Okay, so they're not calling you in to say, hey,
this is the limit of what this person can be earning,
or this is their limitations. You're called in from the
other side of their ability, rather than their limitations of
what their opportunities might be.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
And I bet some of the time they're surprised that,
you know, they called you in to talk about abilities,
and you're like, yeah, well, that's just this is their limitation,
because if you're evaluating it objectively, you're looking at the
whole picture and having both sides of it, both as
a therapist and the business background of an MBA. You've
got a range of experience and knowledge to pull from
(10:54):
that makes you unique.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Well, thank you. Sometimes my opinion isn't what.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Whoever retained me hoped for because I can't make someone skilled.
I can't make somebody with a deficit not have a deficit.
I can't make somebody who lives three hundred miles away
from a metropolitan area have thirty thousand job opportunities. So
there are facts in a case, and the facts are
what the facts are, So I can sometimes pull a
(11:22):
rabbit out of a hat, and other times it's not
so easy. So it's really I am very honest with
the people that retain me about my opinion, and I
give it the best shot possible. But in some cases
it's not reasonable. People aren't going to earn what they
earned before an injury, and they're not going to be
(11:43):
able to have as many opportunities. So that's what I say.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
I think it still think it's fascinating, But you also
still do therapy that is outside of this range, and
in your therapy practice, do you often have to kind
of bring this knowledge base into it because people are
expecting something from their spouse or from themselves in terms
of income or how they relate to money that is
(12:07):
beyond what they had realized.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Actually very interesting because I'm doing therapy in part because
I'm often evaluating people on the forensic side that have
psychological problems, and I have physicians that disable people because
they have major depression, which I find fascinating because to me,
(12:29):
the worst thing is to disable somebody for depression because
you're then relegating them to isolation, and that is the
worst thing to do with somebody with depression. It's better
that they do something and have a schedule in most cases.
But when I testify now, because I am doing psychotherapy
and I do have a wide variety of diagnoses that
I'm seeing, I can't comment medically on somebody because I
(12:53):
haven't evaluated in them in that capacity, but I can
comment on whether I think it's a reasonable thing to
disable somebody because of their mental health status. On the
other side, in therapy, it's very fascinating because I'm seeing
quite a few people that are twenty somethings that are
struggling to figure out their careers. So my background is
(13:15):
really helpful because I can help with interviews I can
help with, you know, anxiety around interviews, how to figure
out their next steps. So it's really I'm using those
I call it my day work to really affect my
evening therapy sessions because it's been very useful in negotiating
those sorts of issues that my patients are having, and
(13:38):
there's a lot of them. In terms of salary. How
do you go into an interview and talk about salary?
I mean, it's a very stressful topic for people. So
I actually in some cases have gone to the Department
of Labor and pulled wages and talked about it and
how to approach those things because it is, you know,
when you're talking about twenty something, approaching money and talking
about wages can be overwhelming. So it has played a
(14:01):
factor in the work that I do as a therapist.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
I think talking about wages is stressful for most people.
And when you go and apply for jobs and sometimes
they list the range and other times they don't list
the range, and then you go in for the interview
and they're like, so how much do you think you
should make? And it's like, well, what do you feel
this position is worth? You're hiring for this position, you
shouldn't be putting that onto the person applying because there
(14:26):
are so many things that they're not aware of and
what offers you may or may not be making.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Which is really helpful for anyone who's in therapy with
me or who knows me, because I can get the
wages from the Department of Labor, and based on what
I know about them, I can tell them what their
wage range should be. So when they go in, I've
literally copied the page off of the Department of Labor
with website the range and marked where I believe they
(14:51):
should be. So if they're asked, they can say they
spoke to a Vocational Board certified vocational expert and this
is where she.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Plays as my wage.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Something anyone can do. Go to that website or is
that something that not everyone has access to?
Speaker 3 (15:05):
Everyone can go to the Department of Labor.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
It's a published and updated site. The twenty twenty four
wages just became available. It's the only thing is it's
a lagging indicator. So the twenty twenty four wages just
became available in the last few weeks. I just saw
them for the first time in a report that I did.
So Yes, you can go to the US Department of
(15:27):
Labor Bureau of Labor Statistics and pull up wages, narrow
it by specific employment types, and then you can narrow
it by parts of the country and even down to
like the Detroit metropolitan area or whatever metropolitan or even
if you're not in a metropolitan area, there's other measures,
Like in Michigan, there's the remainder of the state. It's
(15:50):
kind of like anything that doesn't fit into the other categories.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
That's fascinating because I didn't know about that. I have
various places to gain resources. Robert Half put out wage ranges,
and indeed in the job Sites list that, but I
never thought of going to the Department of Labor.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Well, the Department of Labor is data that's vetted.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
I mean, there's statisticians that are managing the sources. They
go out and sample employers and updated and the at
least the wages are updated annually.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
And because it's vetted.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
And it's used for policy in the United States, theoretically
it is probably the best most reliable data that I
can rely on to project what someone's going to earn.
I don't know necessarily where other sources get a lot
of other sources like indeed might pull some of their
data from.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
The Department of Labor, but I'm not entirely.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Sometimes those sites use self reports and so then it's
not vetted, it's not reliable, it's not generalizable, So it
doesn't go through those standards because it's going to people
that are in a report are going to be like
either earned high or low, and you know they're either
angry or delighted, and so you're missing a whole lot
(17:06):
of data there.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
The Department of US Department of Labor lists it. They
tell you what the percentiles.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Are, so it's it's more reasonably reliable and generalizable.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Okay, So that goes against the ninety percent of statistics
are made up. They actually you know their statistics are good, right.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Because they actually send surveys to employers.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
So it's done.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
And I don't know what their pattern is, but they
have a methodology and an approach and that's what they
do continuously.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
So if someone listening was thinking, Wow, this sounds like
an interesting field and I'd like to go into it,
what suggestions would you have for.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Them, Well, I would say that there aren't many There
aren't many of us that do what I do. So
it's a very narrow field. There are programs that focus
on vocational rehabilitation. Those programs don't ness necessarily focus on
the forensic side. It focuses on helping people get back
to work. You can go into social work and also
(18:07):
you know, social workers have tremendous transferable skills to do
vocational rehabilitation counseling, and there are other counseling areas that
you can ultimately get, but it's you have to pretty
much get a master's degree in one of those areas
and that prepares you to be a vocational rehabilitation counselor
if you take the appropriate certification exams. The forensic piece
(18:27):
is a whole another skill set and preparation. I mean,
you need the vocational rehabilitation is the basis of course,
but no one really trains you on how to testify.
That's kind of by fire, if I'm completely honest, And
you know, maneuvering the legal system takes years and years
of experience to understand how to respond to that. So
(18:50):
you have to find someone to mentor you. And that's
challenging because there aren't many people that do this work.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
But is there need for more people to do this work.
Is there opportunity for.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Someone There's always opportunity for somebody good, But I don't
know that. I think there's a at least in work
comp it's the number of people that are taking work
comp is shrinking, so there's less and less work comp work.
But like I said, it's developing in other areas. The
forensic areas are developing. So I think that I've gotten
(19:20):
called to other states to do work. So obviously there
aren't people in other states to do this, so there
must be some shortfall somewhere.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Okay, if you were to give yourself advice at whatever
age it was when you started making this transition to
this type of work, what twenty five, late twenties, maybe
would you say go for it or run?
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Like I said, I fell into it. I was going
to healthcare management. That's where I was heading. So it's
not somewhere where I even could envision at that point
what I was heading for. The forensic work is fascinating,
and it's the part of volk where I actually help
someone get back to work. Is very rewarding. When somebody
(20:03):
who has a work related injury, who wants to go
back to work and doesn't know what their next steps are.
I find that that's a very big issue, is that
people don't know they've been in manufacturing, say, and they
just don't know what other options they have available. So
working with somebody to explore their options and helping them
transition and then ultimately getting a job and moving on
(20:25):
with their lives. I mean, that's rewarding in the rare
cases I get to do that. It's nice to see.
So I have no regrets for the path I've taken,
and I think that a lot of what I do
is really interesting and challenging, which is nice.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
I mean, there's really not a dull day.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
From the outside, it sounds interesting and challenging. I have
known you for quite a few years, and I've never
fully understood the depth of everything that you do. And
I had to go really slowly in that introduction to
make sure I pronounced all those words. There's a lot
of big words in there.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Yeah, when people say what do you do, it's really
hard to explain.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Well.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I understand that a whole lot better now than I
used to. It's still as fascinating as I thought it was,
possibly even more fascinating, both from the forensic side, which
as an accountantdyke. It's basically an audit and the building
things onto, taking those next steps and stuff. I think
it's just I think it's amazing what you do. Both
(21:25):
sides of it, well, there's more than two sides, but
all the various sides, and especially the way they all
fit together, and of course how it's related to money,
because that's what I talk about. Have you got any
words of wisdom you would like to share before we wrap.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Up in terms of money specifically, I guess if anybody
in their twenties or thirties is listening to this and
looking for work and struggling, I would suggest to them
that they stop pointing and clicking and try to connect
with people, because pointing and clicking when everyone else is
doing the same thing is not necessary going to get
(22:01):
them the outcome that they want. And I know I
feel deeply how hard it is to pick up a
phone for a twenty something when they've lived by text
and by Instagram and Twitter, but pick up the phone
and call in network. It's just so valuable and so
underutilized today.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
And there's a lot of networking opportunities out there, whether
you start from finding a local group of like minded
or joining a group that is diversely minded, because the
opportunities are there when you go outside your comfort zone
and seeing whose hand you can shake and what opportunities
(22:42):
you can you can find or create.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Exactly, use LinkedIn, connect with somebody you're interested in, ask
to take them to coffee. I mean, there's just a
million and one things to do to get yourself noticed
beyond pointing and clicking.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
That is great advice, And this has been a really
fascinating conversation. Karen, Thank you so much for stopping by
and chatting and explaining everything you do. I really appreciate this.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
I'm honored to be on your list. Thanks for including me.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
You are too kind. Everybody out there, thanks for stopping by,
and remember you got this. Siya
Host
Marci Grossman
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