"The Corrections" by Jonathan Franzen

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This book is excellent. This book is really a masterpiece,
and it's absolutely insane to talk about it in the
context of the other books. For you, I am dead serious.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (00:15):
When he sat down to write it, he was like,
this is going to be long.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
I like the writing of this book.

Speaker 4 (00:22):
What I don't like are the words.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
He described something else as a sinus through which infection
was bred.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Was that when the went into her sign no no, no.

Speaker 4 (00:30):
That was Oh she didn't realize this man was doing ABC.
She didn't realize this man was doing that, but she
did know how to ride.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
His Hello everyone, and welcome back to Mean Book Club
Season twenty.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
Is it really yeah? Big twow, that's really cool twenty you.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
Know, but it feels like I have aged that much.

Speaker 4 (00:58):
And honestly, the past six months, so much has happened.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
I would say not for me. I'm like, so I
look more youthful than ever thanks to I feel.

Speaker 3 (01:09):
Like maybe twenty nine is my correct age. I yeh
feel not. Don't ask me to do something to.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
Physically, I would say, I feel thirty two. I feel like,
you know, like that's the age where I stopped aging,
and I refuse to accept aging. But here we go.
We have an amazing line of books this season, and
this first one is The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen.

Speaker 3 (01:40):
Oh wow, they read that. They are really so.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
It's a lot to fit in a brain.

Speaker 4 (01:47):
They're so pretentious.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, they must have graduated in high school. Yeah all
these things, that's what you're thinking. But let's let's introduce ourselves.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
I just thought that they must have graduated school. Joke.
That is a burn because sometimes we get little mean reviews,
and one of them was like, do so like they
haven't even graduated high.

Speaker 3 (02:08):
School, which is so rude to everyone with a GED.
It's so good everyone without a GED.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
It's just yeah, I know a lot of really awesome
eleventh graders who may or may not graduate someday. I
don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:22):
I don't know. That's weird.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
You're not a teacher job.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
I don't know any.

Speaker 4 (02:28):
But like the contest, why are you hanging out with kids?

Speaker 2 (02:32):
I do know.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
Some young people, and I know that they're great people
and they're smart, whether or not they go on to
their eleventh and twelve years of high school.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
Did you think there's not eleventh grader reep or you
keep saying eleven, Like eleventh to me is like, oh,
they're not eighteen. That's what to me you're saying. You're
trying to say they're not.

Speaker 3 (02:53):
Or you told a weird lie. You're either a creep
or a liar.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
I guess I just didn't want to insult I school
students are currently in high school and they're gonna graduate
in eleventh grade.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
Is like, you know, I feel like we should be
more concerned about insulting people who just didn't graduate high
school and that are still very smart people.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
We might insults.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
Okay, if if you've shown up at the We're rain Okay,
get ready, this is kind of might be a target tonight.

Speaker 4 (03:21):
Wait, can I just say that. When Johanna started to
explain it, I was like, Johnna, everyone knows, everyone knows this,
But that's crazy. And so maybe I am stupid because
I don't think every listener is just reading all of
the reviews of the podcast and then.

Speaker 3 (03:45):
In arms.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
So maybe emails.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
There was a really mean one that came in about
me recently. We should read that at some point.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
Yeah, I can empower it. All right, great, we'll come
back again. We have read it.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
I feel like it's a different.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
Oh, it's a different one. Okay, that's fine.

Speaker 3 (04:06):
All right, let me introduce myself because I have some
explaining to do. Okay, I'm Clara. You might not recognize
my voice. It's because I'm sick, and if it's bothering you,
I just want everyone to know. I sent a voice
message earlier today to the other three hosts and said,
it's your call. Do you think this is acceptable? And
they unanimously were like, you're fine too.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, you're sick. Quote so yeah quote.

Speaker 3 (04:33):
If you're upset about my voice, please take it up
with these three or my level.

Speaker 4 (04:37):
I need everyone to know that in this voice note,
she said explicitly, I'm not playing this up and then
laughed a little bit, which indicates to me that typically
she would it's like hello, But she.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
Was like, I'm not even doing bad.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
It sounded so bad I had to clarify that it
wasn't fake. I was honestly priced by everyone's reaction.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
I don't know some this you. You already had a
unique voice, so I honestly feel like everyone was going
to know this was you anyway, because they would just
be like normal.

Speaker 3 (05:09):
Okay, but they'd be like, what's up? Is she okay?

Speaker 2 (05:11):
Okay, sure, sure, well, thank you for telling them they.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
Were our listeners.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
And so again we are the host of Me and
book Club. We read New York Times bestsellers that you
tell us like should they be because you read it
for book club? You hated them? Whatever it is, I
along with Clara and one of your hosts, Sarah.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
Burton, I'm your other host, Jonas Crabis.

Speaker 4 (05:34):
And I'm your other host it's Brina b.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
Jordan and twenty seasons. Yeah, we've gotten that intro in
the bag, I say, Clara.

Speaker 4 (05:47):
Clara just made it crazy. Though we have an order.

Speaker 3 (05:50):
Clara made it crazy. We straight went straight into the
intros right after we said the book. There was no
chit chat about is that hurt anybody's feelings? There wasn't
a twenty minute tweet.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
I see how long we've been recording. It was in
twenty minute.

Speaker 3 (06:12):
All right, I know that.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
All right, guys, corrections Jonathan Franzen, Why the hell are
we reading this? Okay? Well, it comes from one of
our patrons, who an elite, an elite patron, he so
elite that he gave us so munchy much money that
we could not refuse but to read his book and

(06:35):
that's something you guys can do too. Okay, check out
our patreon. Become a patron, and we don't say no
to you.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
We can't take you anything you want, including this nine hundred.

Speaker 4 (06:47):
Page It is required to be a New York Times
best seller.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
It is that is a realm.

Speaker 1 (06:54):
I wouldn't say, that's true. Did you listen to our
whole last season?

Speaker 2 (06:57):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (06:59):
Those listen.

Speaker 4 (07:01):
It is a requirement. Mistakes are made, but that doesn't
mean you just changed the whole foundation of who you are.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
True, that's true.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
All right. I guess we're easily tricked, so you can
get us in all kinds of ways.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yeah, please don't yeah, a little photo way. Okay, this
is what George Saved Davis said. He said, I want
you to read the corrections by Jonathan Franzen because I
genuinely want to feel like I'm not going crazy. And
I hope you hate this book as much as I did.
Around the time this book came out, it was considered

(07:35):
one of the most important novels of the twenty first century,
and every inane paragraph was like a woodpecker on my
damn brain. Why in the name of God did so
many people lap this up. The book isn't a word
mid Fransen writes middleing novels about middle class white people
in the Midwest. Did you see what he did? Oh? Wow?

(07:56):
Next steep pages on how much a recliner means to
an ol Man, bird watch, eating and youth groups. It's
like a life laugh love poster. But for an MFA philosopher.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
I like the twist on it.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
George, this is actually a pretty long He goes off.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
Sort of like the corrections. Yeah, there's two more full paragraph.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
You know, honestly, George, you are given friends in with this.
But do you want me to keep going with everything
he said? He does? I think there's pretty good choice words.

Speaker 1 (08:27):
Yeah, his middle brow writing warranted this elitist, priggish attitude.
That's pretty good.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
He has all the trappings of an upperclass snob and
none of the actual style or pinage.

Speaker 2 (08:38):
George frans And typifies the bespectaled nerds that should have
been shoved in more lockers and kept there until they
developed actual character instead of spineless douchary. He's like if
Brian from Family Guy suddenly came to life and somehow
lost eddy charm he had left.

Speaker 3 (08:53):
Wow. Wow, Family Guy.

Speaker 4 (08:57):
That's really evocative statement, and I do understand it one
hundred percent.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
So this is this this George He's he's, he's he's
the writer himself. I would say, given what he wrote,
Oh definitely he does.

Speaker 1 (09:13):
He recommends. The only thing tangentially related to frans and
that I would recommend is the Characters Welcome YouTube channel
channel called pretentious. Author tries character comedy. So we'll have to.
If you guys are looking for something to watch after this,
check that out. I know, I will, I know, I will.
Back to you Sarah.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
All right, guys, so how did you read this book? Because,
like we all discussed while picking books for the season,
this is the length of this one typically would have
had us throwing it to the side where we not
forced our backs against the wall.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
You know.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
I'll start. I found a BBC radio play far shorter
than the actual book, so I actually I actually listened
to that first, and then I went to the book,
which I kind of switched between audible and you know,
skimming on the digital library version that I had, and

(10:22):
I feel like I got it all, but did I
miss some chunks? Definitely?

Speaker 4 (10:30):
I feel like we had Oh sorry, I just feel
like our journeys were so similar. I started with the
e book and I got to about fifteen percent of
the way through, but then I realized that we were
recording today, and so then I found that BBC broadcast

(10:55):
and I listened to it in its entirety, of course
on three point three speed, not quite three point five.
And then I went back and I read parts of
I like, looked for parts of the book that I
found interesting in the audio podcast to see how it
actually played out.

Speaker 2 (11:16):
Yeah, that was it. It was interesting. I mean, I
actually really do think if this book is too much
for you that like the BBC, I do recommend the
BBC audio play and I and then I and then
going uh. It made a lot of it more palatable
to me because I was like, I had a basis
to know what was going on, and I was like, oh,

(11:37):
there's some parts I found interesting, so I was okay
to hear more about it in the book version.

Speaker 4 (11:43):
So that is interesting because I actually totally disagree.

Speaker 2 (11:46):
Oh really, I like the BBC.

Speaker 4 (11:49):
I loved it for the purpose of ingesting the book
in advance of this podcast, but I felt like it
was it did it in ways an injustice to the book.
It was so shortened down that it was like just
the plot and the plot itself not so compelling.

Speaker 1 (12:10):
Crazy to say that taking something from twenty one hours
to three would be an.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
It. I was fighting. I think it felt goofier in
some ways of the BBC, like because of the plot,
but like I honestly, there's god damn so much you
can cut out of this book that I was, yeah,
totally fine with the cuts, and I I did enjoy
the BBC. Okay, sorry Clara John And how did you
guys consume this?

Speaker 3 (12:36):
I listened to the audible unabridged for about five days
straight and made no progress of all. Then I listened
to the audio play.

Speaker 1 (12:50):
All right, makeup? Yeah, do you want to keep going?
She's past you dye take over to make up for
all of you. I read it twice. I read it, no,
jata what I mean? I read it once when it
came out, and so.

Speaker 4 (13:09):
When you were eleven?

Speaker 1 (13:12):
No, I guess is that really when it came out.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
It came out in two thousand and one.

Speaker 1 (13:15):
Okay, well when it reached me, which was college, and
I assumed it was a new release, because I assumed
the entire world revolved around me. I guess it's like
I've discovered a book. It must be now. But you know,
the funny thing is I vaguely remembered it. I know
I have it on the bookshelf, and I was like,
I feel like it's one of those books that I
never read but everyone was talking about. But then when

(13:37):
I listened to the audio book, I was like, oh, yeah,
I did read this book because the part of it
came back to me. So you know it's been read
everybody a lot.

Speaker 4 (13:49):
Oh well, okay, and just just because you did spie
us a little and make fun of us, did you
finish your listen?

Speaker 1 (14:00):
I did? I did? Oh? I did, Like right before
we started it went to the little the the end
that it was like this has been corrections, and I
was like, I made it all right?

Speaker 2 (14:16):
Okay, yeah, well that fired on me.

Speaker 4 (14:23):
Johnna was shaking her head. No, furiously, I didn't know
what you were.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
Going to say about me or do, but I didn't
like where.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
It was going. All right, all right, well you know
you got to try, and you know you miss all
the shots you don't take kind of thing. All right, Well,
would you guys like to hear Sarah sums it up.

Speaker 4 (14:45):
Yeah, yeah, all right.

Speaker 2 (14:47):
I apologize for the length, but we're going to go
through this. I need someone to play Sarah's thoughts.

Speaker 1 (14:57):
I would love to.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
Okay, Johnna, you're Sarah's thoughts. Then I need somebody to
read what's in bold, which is the actual summary.

Speaker 4 (15:04):
I'd love to. All right, I feel I feel like
Claire should not.

Speaker 2 (15:08):
Claire, shut up, Claire, don't cough, shut up.

Speaker 3 (15:14):
Treat me all right, a little bit, alright.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
So just this is the summary, and on top of
hearing of the summary, you also get to hear my thoughts.
While writing the summary and action.

Speaker 1 (15:28):
Pressed for time, a condition that seemed both trivial and existential,
Sarah Comma resigned herself to the task of summarizing the corrections,
a novel whose resistance to simplification felt ironically like its
most authentic quality, In a decision that felt at once
cynical and strangely inevitable, she began writing the summary in

(15:48):
the tone of mass market chit Lin, an uneasy nod
to Oprah's book Club, whose endorsement friends and had once
publicly bristled at an action Sarah quietly understood she would
never have the ball undertake, she was not above seeking
approval from the mass market masses.

Speaker 4 (16:05):
The corrections chick lit addition, Enid Lambert just wants one
perfect family Christmas, but her adult kids are a hot mess.
Chips a disgrace, professor turned ex pat heart throb, Denise
is a sexy chef, Cotton a forbidden fling, and Gary's

(16:26):
a depressive control freak unraveling in suburbia.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
The summation struck her as brief, perhaps even charming in
its economy, though almost immediately she began second guessing its tone,
its intent, its very existence. She hoped they'd like the writing,
which was, of course, another way of admitting she still
cared far too much about being liked.

Speaker 4 (16:49):
Meanwhile, their father, Alfred is quietly losing himself to dementia
talking to his feces, adding emotional chaos to the already
messy holiday reunion.

Speaker 1 (17:03):
Sarah wondered, not for the first time, whether including the
detail about feces was necessary or merely gratuitous and appeal
to the kind of base humor she pretended to disdain
but increasingly relied upon. Was it honest, was it lazy
or worse? Was it the exact kind of thing a
person writes when they have quietly given up on being

(17:24):
taken seriously.

Speaker 4 (17:26):
Darkly funny, and secretly steamy. The Corrections is a dysfunctional
family dramedy about desire, denial, and the impossible dream of
going home again.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
She wrote the last word of the summary at five
point forty five pm. She noted the time because the
digital clock's green numerals seemed to mock her sense of accomplishment,
and in the sudden vacuum left by a completed obligation,
her consciousness strifted with the peculiar aimlessness that it fliics
the modern knowledge worker, until she found herself engaged in
what could only be described as a kind of performative

(18:00):
self gratification, another type of button pushing, conducted with the
same ironic distance she might have brought to watching a
Ken Burns documentary about suburban on we at the turn
of the century.

Speaker 2 (18:14):
Really, Sarah, it's really, really long, really good.

Speaker 1 (18:20):
I think it needed to be.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
Yeah, I agree. The I have to take issue with
one thing, the.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
Arrant comma at the beginning that I put it out.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
Okay, things had as I and then I changed the tense. Okay,
I'll admit it.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
You.

Speaker 2 (18:39):
You don't disdain poop humor. That's fair, that's fair, but
me and very nicely, it is my favorite humor and
you're absolutely correct about it.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
And we get you. Guys.

Speaker 4 (18:57):
Just as I read the book and like they talked
about season would never stop talking about sex, I was like,
maybe this is what it would look like if Sarah
wrote a pretentious novel lots of lots of sex.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
It did. I mean I did. I think I had
appreciation for those moments as well. I'm not gonna I'm
not gonna lie, but yeah, you get it.

Speaker 1 (19:22):
I was.

Speaker 2 (19:23):
It was hard to It's kind of hard and then
also easy to write a summary. It's funny when you
shorten what it is and I'm like, wow, not much happens.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
Yeah, it's true, yeah, but uh.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yet there was there's so much in this Johnna, do
you have I do a pairing or n all right,
it's time for Johna's.

Speaker 1 (19:41):
Jeff, but it's Johnna's jugs.

Speaker 3 (19:46):
Hello, what I'm loving it nice.

Speaker 1 (19:52):
I like that. We'll keep that in. Okay.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
I do think we need times because it didn't read
the first.

Speaker 4 (20:01):
Time just a little mouse.

Speaker 1 (20:05):
Okay. So at first I was like, do I do
something Christmas? Ye, because it's surrounded. The whole book is
about this adult family coming back to Saint Jude for Christmas.
If you are listening to this at Christmas time, I
will always recommend a mad Elf. They do a winter
Christmas logger. It's really great, highly alcoholic. I've recommended on

(20:25):
the cast before, but that's not when we're doing this,
and that's not what we're talking about. The thing is
I went to Barbruno, which is in my neighborhood, alone
one day and I got a bowl of soup and
an absolutely incredible cocktail. And it was so incredible that
I took a picture of the menu to steal it.
I am telling you you want to have this cocktail.

(20:46):
The reason it makes sense is they're on a cruise
at one point, and this is the kind of drink
they would have on the cruise. But it's also the
perfect drink of summer. The drink was called rose all day,
and then the little tagline was, well you accept this rose.
I did, And here are the ingredients. No, I don't

(21:06):
know what. I don't know obviously their proportion, because enough
I don't know their proportions because all I did was
drink it. But I will tell you the drink was
bright purple, so keep that in mind when you're mixing it.

(21:28):
It is tequila. They recommend Herodura silver, but you guys know,
just tequila. Okay. Hibiscus tough to get, but I think
that's the thing that makes it purple. Okay. And it's
not a sweet and hibiscus. I heard the bartender say
that to someone else. I didn't speak to anyone there, lime,
mint and rose. Holy shit. I got to actually one

(21:53):
right after wow wow yeah, and I just.

Speaker 3 (21:57):
Know how Yeah, how'd you describe the flavor?

Speaker 1 (22:00):
Like?

Speaker 3 (22:00):
Can you compare it to the profile?

Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (22:02):
I mean it is like tasting it is sweet because
you have a nice rose and you can taste the rose,
the pop of the rose, but you're also having a
tequila based drink. So I was also thinking about it.
I was like, it's basically like a wine and a
shot with every glass, and it's purple, and it is refreshing.

(22:24):
I mean, it goes down really smooth.

Speaker 3 (22:27):
So does hibiscus come in some sort of liquefied for all?
My understanding is that that's a flower.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
That is my understanding. So I don't know if they
crushed a flower up. I guess it's a little hard.

Speaker 2 (22:41):
Not a liqueur. There is hibiscus liquor.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
Okay, that I bet it's hibiscus liqueur. As long as
it's purple and unsweetened, that's what you're looking for.

Speaker 2 (22:50):
There's also extract. It's a cranberry like flavor.

Speaker 1 (22:54):
Okay, you guys, if you have a party and you
want to wow people with your cocktails, a rose all day.

Speaker 2 (23:01):
And then also read The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen and
just talk about it.

Speaker 1 (23:06):
Yeah, I must have like a book club or something. Yeah,
that's crazy. It's crazy.

Speaker 3 (23:11):
The referenced jin a munch Fields. It's a lot of drinking.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
A lot of drinking happened because just a lot of words.
All right. This book, uh, this book, The Corrections. It
came out in the week before nine to eleven in

(23:38):
two thousand and one, and it spent fifty weeks on
the New York Times bestseller list. It got beyond that,
you know, because sometimes we read books that like barely
make the best seller list, but no, this one is
a widespread critical acclaim. It won the two thousand and
one National Book Award for Fiction. The two thousand and
two James Tate Black Memorial Prize for Fiction. It was

(23:59):
a finalist for the National Books Critics Circle Award, the
Penn Faulkner Award, and the two thousand and two Pultzer
Prize for Fiction. A finalist, just to clarify so, and
probably most importantly, it was a Oprah Winfrey Book Club
selection two thousand and one, which is where the fun began,

(24:21):
because there's a bit of a feud France and was
feuding with Oprah.

Speaker 4 (24:28):
Can you imagine feuding with Oprah? Not somewhere do you
get off?

Speaker 3 (24:36):
Yeah? And why why you think you're so much better
than hers?

Speaker 2 (24:41):
That's funny.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
I could easily imagine feuding with her, but I think
it would be a fool's Errand but I could imagine
being pissed.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, so what happened?

Speaker 4 (24:50):
She want to recognize you?

Speaker 2 (24:52):
He won?

Speaker 1 (24:53):
Lets her dogs everywhere on set? That's what I heard.
Oh everywhere?

Speaker 2 (24:58):
That's that's there's.

Speaker 3 (24:59):
No hold on, hold on? Okay, I think how many
dogs does she have?

Speaker 1 (25:06):
Like?

Speaker 3 (25:06):
Maybe it's not on purpose, Maybe it's like, I'm really
busy getting my show ready. Could someone please look after
my dogs?

Speaker 2 (25:16):
Is this the assistant's fault. Let's blame the assistant. But
why why the few?

Speaker 5 (25:22):
Sure?

Speaker 2 (25:22):
What I'm saying, I think is what you guys are
all asking in your minds, even maybe not with your words,
but in your minds. So in an interview with National
on NPR's Fresh Air, he said he was worried that
the Oprah logo on the cover would dissuade men from
reading the book. He said, I had some hope of
actually reaching a male audience, and I reader in signing lines.

(25:43):
Now the bookstores say, if I hadn't heard you, I
would have been put off by the fact it was
an Oprah pick. I figured those books are for women.
I would never touch it. So that was the reason why.

Speaker 4 (25:55):
He was That is so spec did after having read this.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
So yeah, So I think then she removed it from
the booklest but I will say eventually, I guess he
came back crawling and for his next novel, Freedom, she
did pick it and they did kind of make up.
But still pretty interesting. Oh.

Speaker 4 (26:23):
Also, now I feel like I can imagine feuding with
Oprah and it's me starting it right now. I can't
believe she ever forgave him. That's ridiculous. Look, I do
think a bad move.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
I wouldn't have maybe said it publicly, but I do
think he's probably right that having the Oprah thing. Would
like that sounds true if that makes sense, that maybe
fewer men would buy it if it had Oprah on
the cover.

Speaker 4 (26:54):
Sure, And if you don't respect women enough to want
them to read your.

Speaker 2 (26:58):
Book instead, yeah, that's that.

Speaker 3 (27:01):
I feel like he could think it. But to go
out and.

Speaker 2 (27:03):
See, yeah, it wasn't It's not something you say in
a public interview. Not not very bright. One final award.
I must mention that this book was shortlisted for the
Bad Sex and Fiction Award, which is a literary review
They award books to the authors they deemed have produced

(27:23):
the worst description of sex scenes in a novel. And
I went and looked at the previous winners and it
wasn't a book we had read. But I was like,
maybe we should take a look at this list in
the future.

Speaker 3 (27:36):
Is it an annual award?

Speaker 2 (27:38):
It is, it's an annual award. I think. I went
and looked at what it was. I can't even read.
Maybe a little later I'll read this. There they there
was this section that gave it that honor, and it
was it was a piece of furniture, chip and a
piece of furniture. Yes, exactly, that was exactly so so
you see it, you get it. We can maybe read

(28:00):
it later. Will keep going, right now, Let's talk a
little bit about Jonathan Franz and himself. He was born
in nineteen fifty nine in Illinois. He grew up in
the Saint Louis suburban of Missouri. Obviously Saint Louis, Missouri
wrote that weirdly, my apologies. He graduated with high honors
from Swarthmore College degree in Germany in nineteen eighty one.

(28:23):
Swahthomore is a Philly college, so that makes more sensus.
So why he had so much Philly in there? And
Fulbright scholarship.

Speaker 3 (28:36):
That used to be a women'sool getting there.

Speaker 2 (28:39):
No, there's three college, No Swathmore and oh goodness, I
should know this, Bryn Mah, Bryn Mar. Really, I think
you're thinking of brid Mar. So so there are three colleges?

(29:00):
Is that I like in a tri college consortium and
it's Swathmore, Bridmar and Haverford and brid Mare is the.

Speaker 3 (29:07):
Well I was just college. You went to school that
was like majority women and still is so disrespectful of
that it would just be interesting.

Speaker 2 (29:15):
It would be interesting. No. No, but the people say, dude,
know who went to Swathmore. I I kind of do
see the friends in like it kind of like made
sense to me, this kind of identity. I was like, yeah, yeah,
that makes sense. It was one of those that you like,
make your own kind of like make your own majors

(29:35):
and kind of do whatever. You know, real laisse fair
real like fartsy artsy, fartsy liberal arts. Anyway, that's that's
just some intel. Okay. So he got a full Bright scholarship,
so you know, obviously he did well in academics. He

(29:57):
well so he immediately even though so you know he
did all that stuff in German, he was like, actually,
I'm going to write a novel. So he was working
as a research assistant at Harvard University's Department of Earth
and Planetary Sciences, which he co authored a dozen papers.
I don't know how his background led him there. I'm
assuming there's some connection because that just was a fact

(30:20):
that was presented to me and doesn't make sense. But
while he was doing that, he wrote his first novel,
The twenty Seventh City nineteen eighty seventy, moved to NYC
with his wife, Valerie Cornell, who's also writer great and he
sold that novel. He and Valerie were together for about
fourteen married for fourteen years, just Sidepark.

Speaker 3 (30:40):
Really easy to move to New York when you're married already.
I would imagine, why are we're doing this together? If
he can make it, he can make it anywhere. Although
to do with moving alone, that was a.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
Bit of why their marriage fell apart, because I think
he had more success than her and that started the
release stefs from his perspective.

Speaker 3 (31:00):
But yeah, who would like that?

Speaker 2 (31:01):
Why his dad did have Alzheimer's Just saying that's relevant
to and passed away that's relevant to the story, and
just his writing style, I would just say, he wrote.
He was asked by The Guardian to contribute what he

(31:21):
believed were tense, serious roles to a Bye Bye verse
bagging writers, and he included treating the reader as a
friend and avoiding the Internet, which seems impossible at this
time to do. I don't understand it, but I there's
a lot more to friends than I'm sure. But I
ran out of time because I spent so much of
it on that summary. So I think we can just

(31:46):
get into the book, I will say, and I'm I
think I probably won't be the only person with this issue.
I know some stuff is like moved around in the
BBC audio play, and i'm I know I'm going to
get confused a few times about like what when things
happen in the book for his audio play.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
I'll be here to correct you.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
Correct love it, love it, But just quick our review
the characters, because this is mostly around them. These family members.
There's the Lambert's. Alfred Lambert is the patriarch, a retired
railroad engineer, and he's the one with Parkinson's disease, dementia
and dementia. Enid Lambert she's the one who wants to

(32:32):
have one last Christmas. Gary is the eldest. He's the
banker living in Philadelphia with Caroline and three sons. He's
obviously depressed. Chip is the middle child, college professor, failed screenwriter. Uh.
And Denise is the youngest daughter. She's a chef working
in restaurants. She struggles with her sexuality in a few

(32:56):
different ways. I guess they kind of all do. Those
are the main characters.

Speaker 1 (33:00):
Really only important.

Speaker 2 (33:06):
Anybody feel connected to any of this characters, Anybody anyway
where connect.

Speaker 3 (33:11):
So when I first read about this book and I
was like, oh, great Parkinson, So my dad is Parkinson relatively,
I don't know new Ish and I was ready to
be pissed. Then I forgot about that, and while I
was reading it, I was like, oh, wow, that sounds

(33:32):
a long So he did, I think? Yeah? So then
I was like, oh, he's he must have really experiened.

Speaker 2 (33:43):
Did can't get him there?

Speaker 3 (33:46):
I guess, yeah, I can't get him there. But I
thought it was interesting my personal journey with that. Remember
I texted you guys. I was like, well, I'll call
out the bullshit on that.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
Oh yeah, like for not.

Speaker 3 (34:03):
I wonder if I literally was like, I guess that
happens to all people. Yeah, I didn't even think this
character has the same disease.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
I mean, And in this book, France and does talk
about all like there are a lot of top topics
he touches on, and he does he's very worthy, but
obviously he attacks them with so much information sometimes like
well it's hard to doubt him, like all the stuff
about I mean, I guess what it's called literary realism,
but he's talking about like the railroads and stuff and
a part of me was like, is this any that's true?

(34:34):
And then I was like, oh, I don't know, maybe
it's not exactly true, but what is it based on?
And then I just was like, I'm never going to
look that up and find out. I wanted to get him,
but I wasn't going to get I wasn't gonna get
him on any of that. Although I will say with Lithuania,
I was not happy about it's portray portrayal of the
book as kind of like a post Soviet like, you know,

(34:59):
you shoo Deans and their tricking Americans into Lithuania dot com.
That's a little bit later, but uh, it's funny. They
kind of thought that was funny.

Speaker 1 (35:07):
That Lithuania even like heard about it, because they just
seem like such an easy target. It'd be like just
pick like a country that's never gonna like, you know,
this book exists. And I can say that because I'm
a quarter Lithuanian.

Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, and apparently are you. I didn't know though, So
what how did you feel reading the parts about Lithuania?

Speaker 1 (35:30):
You're fucking pissed? Yeah, I've never been there, It's it sounded.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
Right, I'm I'm how horrible it sounds.

Speaker 1 (35:41):
Yeah, it sounded like they would be having financial difficulties
the post Soviet era. It sounds like sand might be
their main export.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
Yeah, they can gravel.

Speaker 1 (35:53):
That sounded very feel like the rest of this book,
this perfect book that I loved very much. Wait, really, yeah,
this book is excellent. This book is this book is
a masterpiece. And it's insane to even have it on
the cast to talk for you in the context of

(36:15):
the other books. Am I I am dead serious?

Speaker 3 (36:20):
Oh, in this cast you called it you essentially called
it forgettable.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
Wow, I've lived a lot of life since I read
it before. But I'll tell you what. These quotes I
wrote down weren't forgettable. They're mastered.

Speaker 3 (36:35):
Well, you didn't forget them once.

Speaker 2 (36:39):
So you just you wrote You didn't write down quotes
you wanted to mock. You wrote down quotes that you
just thought were beautiful and wanted to share. Is that right, Johnna, Yeah,
you must miss it beautiful at some level.

Speaker 3 (36:50):
Yeah, that we're going to destroy them.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
You must know.

Speaker 1 (36:55):
I did write down two bad ones. Just like they're
not bad, it's just the metaphors he uses were pretty
like that's kind of insane.

Speaker 4 (37:02):
Yeah, yeah, did they involve breasts in some way, or
nipples or the phallis.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
It was, oh my god, and I like black vinegar
beating on white china was how he described someone's iris.
And then he described something else as a sinus through
which infection was bred. So those ones were kind of funny.
But then he described the Enid No, no, no, that

(37:31):
was different. The Enid and Alfred relationship. He has this
absolutely incredible quote which was like, so h Alfred was uh,
he said old things, but he had a young man's face,
and so enis settled for him, and life simply became

(37:53):
a matter of waiting for his personality to change. And
I was like, that is so beautiful, and it's like,
what's so meny? Any women do they marry someone and
they're like, and now I simply need to change his
personality little by little until he's right. And it obviously
is the theme of the book as well, the correction.

(38:14):
She spends her whole life correcting, trying to correct her
husband to get into the version she wants.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
They're all trying to get to the version. Okay. I
will also admit that I do also agree with Johnna
that this is a good book. Yes, it is, but
I can understand why people would dislike it. I guess,
like George, perhaps I just I do. I do agree

(38:42):
that like, oh ideally I would love, like, you know,
two hundred pages to be edited out of this book.
I think he I like his writing style. I mean,
I do like how detached and ironic everything is, like
I really I do really enjoy that, which is why,
like the sex stuff was always funny, like it wasn't

(39:05):
like sexy, like a you know how I would usually
want the sex stuff, but I was okay with it
that because it wasn't it wasn't supposed to be that
type of book. If that makes sense. I don't know
if anybody. Yeah, So.

Speaker 4 (39:20):
What I want to say is I like the writing
of this book and I think it's good. What I
don't like are the words. And what I mean by
that is he's very clearly a good writer, and he's smart,

(39:42):
but it is that like classic thing of women are
just not fully formed people and it's all about like
men and how they get them off and like even so,
I specifically because I had read the first like fifteen percent,
which was all about Chip and we get really into

(40:05):
his psyche and about how he is thinking about breasts
all the time, and also the whole thing. Yeah yeah, yeah,
and the whole thing. It's like commentary on him being
those garravon but it's like they he talks about how
many times he says the word breast in his manuscript,
which is just like a way to talk about breasts
more in this book. And then so I specifically was like,

(40:26):
I need to read the Denise parts to like give
this a fair shake. And then you like go to
the Denise part and it's like, she didn't realize that
this man was doing XYZ. She didn't realize this man
was doing this ABC. She didn't realize this man was
doing that, but she did know how to ride his cock.
And then she fist pumps after she loses her virginity

(40:48):
before going to college. And then in a later scene
she's talking to another woman and it was like, oh,
they put their little heads together and blah blah blah,
and it was just like, you're using your powers for evil.

Speaker 2 (41:02):
I can agree, this.

Speaker 3 (41:04):
Is what you liked. Jerman.

Speaker 4 (41:05):
I take show with.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
This description of Denise because we're talking about when she
was eighteen, she was having sex with one of her
dad's coworkers, and what she didn't realize was that he
was using her to get back at her dad because
it was a power move for him to sleep with
the daughter of the man he hated. It's actually that's
not what the heartbreaking set of the book.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
But I agree with you, Okay, I agree with you,
Sabrina in that I don't. I think it's hard. Is
like I don't relate to the the the Denise the character.
And probably the best way for me to describe it is,
have you guys seen Yellowstone, the show Yellowstone? Okay, it's

(41:46):
like Beth Dunton. To me in Yellowstone, it's like it
feels like a man wrote a man and then just
was like, but now it's a woman, Like yes, and
it's women. And I actually because I did have the

(42:07):
thought during Denise scene that I was like, I wish
she could have shown this part to some women that
could have been like, no, women don't usually just tweak
their nipples, right, And like there was like a few
times where I was like, ah, she's I doubt she's
doing that. But the everything was so the descriptions of
her and everything were so uh, they were so detailed,

(42:29):
and it and interesting in the same aspect I was
glad that she had as a female, was like, uh
not like woe is me or like things were I
don't what am I trying to say. She seemed to
have some control over her narrative, like she was the
one making the stupid decisions, as opposed to like, uh,

(42:53):
misery is that the movie? Is that the name of
the book that malice?

Speaker 1 (42:58):
Thank you malice time our old time mouse.

Speaker 2 (43:03):
Uh so, yeah, but I do agree that I this book.
I also did find it very male centric. I did
was interested, Sabrina to hear your take on her like
sexuality and inability to and like going back and forth
or whether like you were like did you see any
truth of that? Or was that just do you think

(43:24):
he was just using that to represent something else that
was interesting to me.

Speaker 4 (43:29):
I was excited about the prospect of it a little
bit from the audio play, right, it's like, oh, but
then the way that it's described is just like, listen,
maybe somebody else could have this experience, but it's certainly

(43:50):
not my experience, where it's just like, well, you know,
I decided that this isn't right, and then she just
like keeps deciding that she's like she's like, now I'm
done with men. Now I'm done with women, And it's
just like a decision she's making. But I felt like,

(44:11):
I don't know, I felt so infuriated by his writing
of all the sex things, which is not me, Like
I don't dislike sex scenes in books, right, Yeah, but
I was so infuriated by the way it was done here.
And then I was like, oh, I feel like he's
making her a lesbian so that we can envision her
having lesbian sex.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
Interesting.

Speaker 4 (44:34):
And the scene that I was thinking about that frustrated
me was when she the first woman that she dated.
If I can just read, they fought a lot. They're
fighting life like the sex life that so briefly preceded.
It was a thing of ritual. They thought about why
they were fighting so much, whose fault it was. They

(44:56):
fought in bed late at night, they drew an unguest
on unguess reservoirs of something like libido. They were hung
over from fighting in the morning. They fought their little
brains out, fought, fought, fought. It's just like the line
fought their little brains out made me so mad.

Speaker 3 (45:17):
Yeah, just as you were reading it, I.

Speaker 2 (45:22):
Feel like that's supposed to be like make you think
of fuck their little brains out like that. I know you.

Speaker 3 (45:29):
Brains.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
Yeah, I don't know the little part.

Speaker 4 (45:34):
Yeah, it's the little Yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:36):
That's fair. That's fair. That's fair.

Speaker 4 (45:38):
It's like, don't worry your pretty little head about it, honey, Yes,
bite your little head off.

Speaker 1 (45:44):
They're not fighting about anything real. They'll have their Let
the little dogs go at each other. Yes, no offense
to little dogs, thank you. Okay. It's funny that I
actually had an example of us, like a sex scene
that I thought was like, actually so sexy. I was like,
that's like so oh, I thought it was like a
really hot scene. But now that I'm well, now that

(46:04):
i'm reading it, it's like all about how he being
a man made her into a woman. Oh yeah, it's
like I'm reading which one is it? Okay? So it's
in her bedroom. On his knees, he planted his thumbs
on her hip bones and pressed his mouth to her
thighs and then to her whatever she felt returned to
a childhood world of grim and C. S. Lewis, where
a touch could be transformative. His hands made her hips

(46:26):
into a woman's head.

Speaker 4 (46:27):
That line I liked by the way his mouth.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
Made her thighs into a woman's thighs, her whatever into
a cunt. I loved that it was like his touch
made her hips and a woman's hits in her. I
thought it was also like very funny.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
Like, yeah, I do think most of it's funny.

Speaker 1 (46:42):
I thought that was like really good. But as I'm
reading it through this new lens, I am seeing that
it's like his touch from a blank nothing blob a
plato into.

Speaker 4 (46:56):
And like that's what I'm saying, is like I love
the way that that's written, but I don't like those
words interesting.

Speaker 2 (47:03):
Yeah, I do like what.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
You're saying, Sabena, I like what you're saying.

Speaker 2 (47:09):
Plus, no, I think that's the point. I think that's
a fair issue with the entire character of what's to say, Denise,
that's not the name, is it.

Speaker 4 (47:23):
And even like talking about Enid, like later in the book,
it's like referencing She's like the day she conceived Gary,
then the day they conceived and it was like, is
that what Enid's good for is conceiving children? Like I
think I was already on a roll.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
I was already start to look.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
Yeah, it's easy to find.

Speaker 2 (47:57):
She is. It's okay, I will say, as as as
as many of us are a person who has kids
and deals with like mother in laws and like parents
about over like holidays and the importance of Christmas and
all that. There was a lot with Enid that I
like felt pity about and like made me feel bad

(48:21):
about and like understanding like her obsession because I see
it like in real life. Yeah, like in my life
reflected and then also sorry to go to we know.
We even talked a lot about Gary, but a lot
of his stuff with his wife. I also was like, oh,
this is I hate how much of so much of

(48:42):
this is like hitting for me, Like I'm understanding Gary's perspective,
and I totally see myself doing the exact same thing
Caroline's doing, you know, like, and I'm and I was
his story. I was thinking, like, he just needs some bills,
please get this man.

Speaker 1 (49:03):
It's funny because I feel like Enid is the whole
She's the whole heart of the book. She's the main character,
and she is when you look at her through the
lens of her children or through Alfred, she seems like
this really simplistic, sort of pathetic character who's like her
whole life is just her family, and she's like old
and kind of dotty and annoying. But like I think

(49:27):
as the viewer, you're supposed to see Enid as much
more than that, as this like whole and complex person.
And it's like, actually, this like it's this really kind
of sad portrait of this woman who just wants to
have one more Christmas with her family. She knows her
husband's not going to make it to the next one,
and she's like just asking them for like she's given

(49:47):
them everything her whole life, and she's like, can you
just come for a couple days home with your children
and your spouse's and or you know, in Chip's case,
just Chips, just Chip, Just Denise, just come and be
Please let me get nine tickets to the Nutcracker. And
it's so heartbreaking in part two because like a lot
of it really ring true to me that like there

(50:09):
was this moment of like Denise Denise's trip went like
every other. The first day she came home and she
was so kind and loving and she was determined at
anything that her mother asked, and the second day she
woke up mad. It's so oh, it just hits home
to read it because you're like I've.

Speaker 2 (50:30):
Done this, Yeah, yeah, I know. And you're like it's
it's like I'm understanding the kids and like why they
do those things because I've done those things. But yeah,
it definitely pulls your heartstrings for like, oh, the things
I'm doing to my family or like my mom or
my mother in law.

Speaker 3 (50:47):
Yeah, I think that I would have had a different
opinion before I had children, because you don't really understand
the sort of self sacked, like the extent of self sacrifice.
It's just like yeah, like, yeah, a mom is supposed
to do that, so goes later loser.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
Yeah, And I think like, oh, now.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
I just want us all to wear beels for what day?

Speaker 1 (51:22):
Why is that so hard? But also, like you know,
if you've ever seen someone like take care of someone
who's aging, and you kind of see the craziness of
it and like the complex things and hoops that they're
jumping through to like keep care take care of the
other person, and as an outsider, you're just like, this
is a crazy setup. What are you guys doing. I

(51:43):
also saw that in the book, where it's like they're
just doing the best they can, Like she is, yeah,
of course it looks a little stupid, and she at
times may seem selfish or like she's not handling it,
but it's like she's feeling it pretty well for a
seventy two year old woman, like.

Speaker 2 (51:57):
Yeah, or worrying about what her kids do and all
that kind of stuff.

Speaker 3 (52:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:02):
All the comparisons to the wealthy neighbors.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
Yeah yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (52:07):
I know a guy who there.

Speaker 1 (52:10):
I was like her.

Speaker 3 (52:12):
My mom and the mom were friends, and they were
like that family was like a forest friends and we
all hated them. And the oldest son like works selling
ad space in some catalog that happens to be owned
by the Washington Post, and his dad says he works
for Washington.

Speaker 2 (52:32):
Oh my God's god, my mom said.

Speaker 1 (52:34):
I was like, told a neighbor was like talking about
SNL cast members, and my mom was like, that's Johnna's friend.
And I was like, what are you talking about? Because
I live in New York City.

Speaker 2 (52:52):
We did a show once together. Listen, ye fairness.

Speaker 4 (52:55):
I feel like she could genuinely believe that. It makes
me think of how your aunt one day in high
school was like, I've found the perfect man for you.
He lives in the area, he is hardworking. Sydney Crosby,

(53:16):
you know, my.

Speaker 1 (53:17):
Hand was like caught like for like a couple months
because I was lifeguarding at the pool where the Lemus
swam and Sidney Crosby like lived with them. He was
new to the penguins. My hend was like, I.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
Don't like he was new to the penguins, but he
was like almost like immediately the captain, like he was
immediately the the most.

Speaker 3 (53:39):
And the way It's like I've I've found a man for.

Speaker 2 (53:44):
Man every woman wants to like in this.

Speaker 1 (53:47):
If you don't know, if you know hockey, you know
how silly this is. If you don't, if you're for Pittsburgh,
you know how and say that is if you're not,
it is like a kin to being like, you know
who seems like really nice. Liam Hemsworth his brother Christopher
is like, no, yeah, that's very funny.

Speaker 3 (54:09):
But she might have been right. She might have been right,
like may not be off right?

Speaker 4 (54:15):
I mean yeah, sure for sure, I'm would have been incredible.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
Thank you. I agree, I think I have I have
never heard of Jonah.

Speaker 3 (54:29):
I've never heard of Jonah Ice skating. She has a
lot of those sort of hobbies, but I haven't heard
of ice.

Speaker 1 (54:34):
Get your ears checked.

Speaker 2 (54:38):
She's doing ice skating stuff, all right. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (54:44):
I say, we could talk about the turd.

Speaker 2 (54:49):
The turd. I did find that funny. I found it
disturbing and upsetting. But I was like, let me just.

Speaker 3 (55:01):
My father is not incontinent. I know, I said there
was a similarity that wasn't.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
But well, you know what, I want to embarrass that part.
That part, as far as I thought, it's like my
grandfather had dementia, my grandmother and they're like, I've definitely
dealt with incontinence with them, and so kind of to
me that stuff, It's like, yeah, they don't mean to
like it's I don't know. I mean maybe also I
deal with it with my child as well, where it's

(55:27):
just like Jesus Christ.

Speaker 1 (55:28):
Yeah, poop is like nothing to me anymore. By the way,
you got to watch train Wreck Poop Cruise on Netflix.

Speaker 4 (55:34):
I won't okay, it sounds like it's a documentary that
is triangle of sadness.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
I don't want to I do want it.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
I don't want to know is a non stop laugh.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
I need that.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
I need that, So I will check that out.

Speaker 3 (55:54):
But one more times it's called train Wreck colon Poop
Cruise on Netflix.

Speaker 1 (56:00):
Check it out.

Speaker 2 (56:01):
Yea cruise. I've definitely seen it. I definitely thought about
starting it. Sorry, thank you.

Speaker 1 (56:07):
But one of the things they like made the passengers do,
I guess if you don't want to talk about poop,
like fast forward.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
There's also a cruise in this book, so we're really
very relevant.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
If you're not interested that like fast forward like five
minutes because I'm about to talk about poop a lot.
So one of the things they tell the passengers to
do on the Poop Cruise is like poop into red
biohazard bags because the toilets will overflow if they don't,
and everyone like flips out. They're like, I can't poop
into a bag. It's disgusting. And I was like, I
don't know if it's the years of having a dog,

(56:39):
or like changing baby diapers or just like camping. I've
never had to poop in a bag, but like I
was just like I could poop in a bag, like, so,
I guess, like.

Speaker 3 (56:51):
Nothing paid a lot of money for cruise and then
they're making and you poop in a bag and you're
just angry.

Speaker 4 (56:58):
Oh, I'm asking to come money back, but I'm gonna
poop in that bag.

Speaker 1 (57:01):
Well guess what they so they created poop Alley, and
then poop Deck and then poop Cruise.

Speaker 2 (57:09):
Those are worse things. Those are worse things.

Speaker 3 (57:12):
Have you guys ever tried to travel? Jeane? I did
it a lot when I was pregnant. It's like a
women's ere.

Speaker 1 (57:19):
In all homes.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (57:20):
I think I got at plastic thing and then it
has a bag.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
Oh no, I guess not that specifically.

Speaker 1 (57:25):
I think Sarah gave me one once as a joke,
but I never used it. Oh wow, it.

Speaker 2 (57:31):
Wasn't a joke. It was a serious presence and you
didn't use it. I am did.

Speaker 3 (57:35):
You like keep it on in the car gyp in
the car which.

Speaker 2 (57:41):
You don't wear it? It's not like which is hard. Actually,
that's such a good idea for pregnant people, because like
there were times where like I couldn't need was out
and needed a bathroom and like couldn't didn't have access
to one.

Speaker 4 (57:54):
How do you covertly do that?

Speaker 3 (57:58):
You do it in the car.

Speaker 2 (57:59):
You do it.

Speaker 3 (58:00):
It's all in the car. It's all in the car. Okay,
I did l like once? Wow, tricky it's a little tricky, but.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
Wow, I'm not in the car that much, so not
to you guys. You guys want to talk about some things.
Oh you're want to talk about Chip's affair with that
student Melissa.

Speaker 4 (58:23):
No, the yeah, that was that was sick.

Speaker 2 (58:28):
It was I I I kept I didn't understand why
Melissa wanted to have sex with him.

Speaker 3 (58:35):
I guess, yeah, that was My big thing is like
overly she came in and then you rejected her and
she came back really like.

Speaker 4 (58:44):
Yeah, like absolutely not. There's no world in which that's.

Speaker 3 (58:48):
A college full of attractive boys.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
Hurt ape something you can have.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
But it's like and she had a healthy relationship with
her parents and then like I don't have It was like,
none of this adds up. This is doesn't make sense
to me.

Speaker 4 (59:03):
He's not described as attractive. I mean, I guess there
is like the attraction that people do have a dynamic. Sure,
but she waited till after she was done his class. Yeah, okay,
I know, like the lucky it wears off after you're

(59:25):
out of their proximity and they no longer have that.

Speaker 2 (59:29):
Right. I was surprised, right what had happened?

Speaker 4 (59:33):
And you see it for what it really was. You're like,
that was crazy that I found that person attractive?

Speaker 2 (59:40):
Yes, yes, And then and then I was disturbed at
the point when Chip was like mad at her for
being happy, like and she was going to go meet
his parents and he had like a fantasy about raping
her or something that I don't like this.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
I don't like this.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
Yeah, me get it.

Speaker 4 (01:00:01):
His whole interaction with her is so crazy, like you know,
obviously you know they're going to have sex because he
starts fixating on her in class and mentioning her bear
mid drift her breasts, I'm sure.

Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
And then.

Speaker 4 (01:00:17):
He can't call on her because he's afraid that his
voice might quiver. And finally she's like rude at the
end of the semester and she's all like, you just
want us all to agree with you, which, by the way,
like makes it seem like she got it, like she
got that he was egotistical, you know, like that doesn't

(01:00:43):
sound like someone I'm attracted to. I'm not like, you're
a bad teacher, you aren't smart, You just want us
to agree with you. And then I bring cupcakes over
to your house in a mini skirt, Like no, I
would say Franzin.

Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
Was good at making me believe lust or or love
in that in that falling in love type way, like
because then we also have Denise and her many and
her many affairs, and you never felt like, especially with
when she lost her rigidity, you never felt like, oh
I get why she did this.

Speaker 4 (01:01:23):
Yeah, Like I feel like it goes back to it's
like he wants those male readers, right, that's why he
doesn't want Oprah. And what's interesting is, you know, back
to what we were talking about, like so much of
the book feels like a real struggle, like you know,
a real way people might operate, and then these types

(01:01:46):
of things are not real at all, and it's just like, ah, yes,
the middling looking man does get fucked by the twenty
year old sophomore, Like you can live out that any man.

Speaker 3 (01:02:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I really like what you're saying.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
It's hard to just like ever even imagine this happening
around me in college, Like I didn't know anyone that
was sleeping with their professor. But I never ever had
like a teacher crush. I can't think of even like I.

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
Might have had teacher crushes, but they were not in Colone.

Speaker 4 (01:02:25):
I had one, but it was a grad student teacher.

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
Yeah, they were usually the young hot on right. Yeah
I did have like I maybe had, but I might
have had some like intellectual like where I wanted someone
to see me as smart and therefore, I mean, but
I never I wouldn't have. Yeah I would have know,
but like I but I could see I was almost
certainly a gay man.

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
They're easy to lie, I do.

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
I do think Denise. With Denise, it's it's supposed to
be like, oh, I mean obviously showing that she's like
fucked up because she the way she thinks is just
like going to like go have sex with this guy
because she just feels like she owes him in some way.
I feel like that was which I do. I that
was the only thing that they said that I was, like,

(01:03:12):
I can remember being younger and like kissing boys because
I felt like, oh I had to, or like I
went on the date, so that's what happens next. I
don't want to do this, but I just did it.
But like she went farther than that, which was like
leading him.

Speaker 3 (01:03:26):
Into and maybe much older than why not.

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
I mean, I'm talking about being like a teenager and
stuff like I don't mean similar age. I just mean
she but it only like it made me understood her
to a point like beyond that. I was like, okay,
but she went way farther than that, and I don't
I don't get it, but yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
It made me feel bad for her. Yeah, so I
was feeling something. It's not the kind of feeling I
liked that have though. It's like, you're a writer capable
of making people feel things, and that's what you picked.

Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
This does line up with everything I know about you, Clara. Uh.
When Clara reads kids books, she skips past the sad images.
And what I mean is like if it's a book
of emotions that are like happy, said flip flip, happy, excited.

Speaker 3 (01:04:24):
Okay, I did do that, but then oh yes, And
then when I had to say it out loud to
John and Sabrina to explain what I was doing, I
was like, oh, I.

Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
Well, I understand the feeling of like this isn't I
definitely go past those faster than I sit in the
fun emotions for those emotion books.

Speaker 1 (01:04:48):
But do no different different anyway, John just monotonely happy, fright, excited.

Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
Emotions. I mean, in terms of plot, there are some
fun things that happen, like Chip his the woman he's
sleeping with has a husband, the Lithuanian who hires him

(01:05:23):
on to write for the website essentially for reasons that
still aren't clear, flies him to Lithuania. And there's like
a lot of that's like a very goofy section that
I I liked because it was silly and funny, I guess.
But he eventually, like h is flying away, like he
gets raw. He's got to making a bunch of money.

(01:05:45):
But there's like essentially kind of like a civil war
ish thing happening, and he you know, has to go
to Prague or where does he go to fly? I
don't whatever. It's like he's trying to get home for Christmas,
is what's happening. But Mike, in terms of like compared
to like some of the other more like heady stuff

(01:06:06):
like Gary's stuff was all very like you know, manic depressive,
like him seeing things that weren't there and fighting with
his family over dumb shit. It did give me some
good ideas though, for how to torture my husband my
husband in the future read my kids. Yeah, just like

(01:06:26):
encouraging them to have uh like interests that would drive
him crazy or you know, slowly, you know, getting them
on my side versus turning them against him. All those
kinds of things. They sound really like that's a possibility
for me, and and I did appreciate that for you.

Speaker 4 (01:06:50):
Something that I don't know if it is funny or
just pretentious, was both Chip's porn was I'm sure I
can't pronounce this. It's French sent on the cinema eratique.

Speaker 2 (01:07:10):
It's like, oh, I forgot about that.

Speaker 4 (01:07:12):
That's so crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
Yeah, maybe a different time. I think it's just a
different time.

Speaker 4 (01:07:20):
You think it's funny, of course you do. You're a
friends and supporter.

Speaker 1 (01:07:25):
The books a masterpiece, like no exaggeration, The book's a masterpiece,
so you.

Speaker 4 (01:07:35):
I would love to know how many women were on
the committees that gave it all those awards. What the
breakdown was number one?

Speaker 2 (01:07:46):
Okay, that is honestly crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:07:48):
Looks like all of you.

Speaker 4 (01:07:49):
She didn't give it a literary award.

Speaker 2 (01:07:52):
She tried to mate it on her book list.

Speaker 3 (01:07:55):
Maybe she didn't read the whole thing because it is
very long.

Speaker 2 (01:07:59):
Yeah, the BBC play wasn't out by then, so she
couldn't have done.

Speaker 3 (01:08:02):
Maybe whoever summarized it for her kind of.

Speaker 2 (01:08:08):
I didn't it looks.

Speaker 3 (01:08:11):
I really struggle.

Speaker 2 (01:08:14):
I didn't mention this, but the you might be wondering,
you know, like why hasn't this been turned into anything?
And he Jonathan Franzon and Noah Bombak did write a
series and they might have even filmed a pilot, but
then HBO like didn't take it because they thought it
was like going to be too difficult to follow, which
I thought was funny because I'm just like, there's definitely

(01:08:37):
like I feel like they could try again. I just
feel like HBO takes stuff that's like way more his proof. Yeah,
it's true. I really think. I was like, no, you
could definitely do this, And I don't know, maybe Jonathan
needs to be taken out of the adaptation.

Speaker 1 (01:08:56):
But now that we have, like I mean, I know,
to compare anything to Succession as crazy, but it's like
that's sort of a very character driven like you know,
family peace. Like I just I feel like this is
a character study more than anything. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:14):
Yeah, with people that are ship like everyone's like a
little shit yeah, like there's uh And I guess I
do appreciate that, like when everyone's a little shitty Seinfeld
should talk about nothing. Yeah, he blah blah blah. I'm

(01:09:36):
just looking again at George's issues. The writing itself sucks
and is mostly derivative of the worst of Updyke and
annoying postmodern tingents inherited from David Foster Wallace. I do
think he had a relationship with David Foster.

Speaker 4 (01:09:48):
It's like, really, it sounds like they'd be friends.

Speaker 1 (01:09:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:53):
I also think I can.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
See the Updike comparison, and I thought of it myself,
but I think that Updike Updyke is my much more
random and is like goes for shock value, and this
is this is specific, like there is a special that
makes it. It's like it really hits. It feels very truthful.
Often I am there that does acrobatic trips.

Speaker 2 (01:10:20):
You're right, You're right. I guess now that you're saying that,
I was like, what Updyke every rand and then you
said that, I was like, oh yeah, no, no, no,
I guess Hotel New Hampshire.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
Yeah, remember we hated it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:35):
Yeah, it's not how it sound New Hampshire to me.
I also just find I do find a lot of
his like observational stuff, funny, and I do like it
within this book, like even the what was it called
the Medicine Overall or correct All? Like I thought that
was fun and then they were like, you know, that's
the name of like poop medicine, and they're like, I

(01:10:58):
don't care, and I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:11:00):
I just liked humor for you got your number.

Speaker 2 (01:11:03):
Yeah, that's probably why, But I just I just I
just I liked every I liked everything about that and
the way he kind of like you know, even talks
about like prison system, Like he he finds ways to
like have some criticism on like almost every aspect of
American society. And you know, I will also admit that
it's it is very obviously a very waspy, upper middle

(01:11:26):
class book. And it's also possible that one reason why
I related is because maybe that is more my background
and hearing. I mean, you know, did I love the
references to Kenneth Square? Did I love hearing names places
that I knew?

Speaker 1 (01:11:42):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
I did.

Speaker 3 (01:11:44):
I do need to interject that Hotel newritten by.

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
John oh Ship. Jesus, we went up up.

Speaker 3 (01:11:53):
No, we've never done We've never up run Rabbit run, Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:12:00):
Now, wonder I was like I didn't understand you. I've
never read Updyke, and I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:12:05):
I didn't, Okay, George, we don't have the same taste,
so you're not You're you are, Okay, I.

Speaker 3 (01:12:16):
Just I just have to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:12:18):
No, Claria, we're very glad. I'm sure George probably was.

Speaker 1 (01:12:22):
Yeah, honestly, yeah, George really smart. I'm embarrassed that he George.

Speaker 2 (01:12:29):
And we read what you wrote. George. Yeah, if you've read,
you're maybe mad at us. But remember we don't all
like it, and we have different reasons for not.

Speaker 3 (01:12:37):
Like I like it, I didn't. I like, Yeah, I
can appreciate that.

Speaker 4 (01:12:44):
I'm like, I'm like seething, and I just I need
I need Johnna to get away from liking it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:52):
I know, in fact, I know real this like divide
between Like I do feel like we both are feeling
really passionate about this book. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:06):
I also I also feel like, as a writer, I
know I can be wordy, and so in some ways
that makes me like almost feel for Frans in that
like I wish I could get away with being as wordy.
Whereas like because of the type of stuff I've studied
or writing I've done, I've been like no you cannot
be wordy. You cannot be wordy, you must like cut

(01:13:29):
it all out. And so I think I have some
jealousy there that I'm like, oh, but it would be
fun to just like ramble for pages.

Speaker 3 (01:13:37):
Well maybe that's why the rest of us can't.

Speaker 4 (01:13:40):
I I enjoyed that aspect of it.

Speaker 3 (01:13:44):
Well, it didn't feel a little bit like when you
sat down to write it, he was like, this is
going to be a long It was a very irritating
just because we have a time limit and lives and stuff.
And I could feel that with every meandering description of
something that you could not describe at all. Actually, but

(01:14:06):
some of.

Speaker 1 (01:14:06):
The I just like, sorry, yeah, some of the descriptions
are just so beautiful and you've never heard anything like
it before, and it just rings so true. Like one
of my favorite ones, which is real quick, is that
you know, the dad has parkt Seid, so his hands
are shaky, it's hard for him to eat, and Enid

(01:14:27):
is annoyed because he doesn't wear a tie somewhere, but
then she goes but suit times we just cannon fodder
on the front lines anymore. It's such a great description.

Speaker 2 (01:14:39):
But is it that reminded me of my grandparents a lot.
Their relationship really reminded me of my grandparents.

Speaker 4 (01:14:45):
I really liked, I'll sayza pieces of it that I liked.
In the very beginning of the book, she alludes to
like smelling urine, and she's like, but it simply couldn't
be urine. And then you like, very slowly find out
that he is absolutely skeeing in like these jars downstairs

(01:15:09):
and at like, I'm not describing it well, but the
way that he revealed that information I thought was really
compelling and interesting. And I think like me liking the
beginning so much and feeling for Enid in the beginning,
and then I think, like I just got really angry

(01:15:29):
when it became so clear to me that it was
written for the male gaze and it is just Z
not why Yeah, no, the Z one. And I'm just
like sitting there thinking about men smugly reading this book and.

Speaker 2 (01:15:47):
Just pissed me off.

Speaker 4 (01:15:50):
Yeah, pissed me off because of the potential that was there,
because it is so.

Speaker 2 (01:15:58):
I do too. I think that's fair if I.

Speaker 3 (01:16:00):
May attempt to bridge or the divide between John and Sabrina,
or at least someone must. I think that Jonah's reaction
might be like recognition that this person can use the
art of writing and comparing it to other books that

(01:16:25):
and that she sort of feels beholden to, like elevate
that like this is real writing, and we must respect that.
That seems fair and that that's maybe why you're calling it.

Speaker 1 (01:16:39):
Yeah, No, I think that feels completely fair. And I
would just add that this book is a masterpiece period
and it could stand against any great literature.

Speaker 3 (01:16:50):
Okay, will it tried?

Speaker 2 (01:16:50):
All right? At this time, I would like to read
the An excerpt. The night of Alfred's seventy fifth birthday
had found Ship alone at the tilt and legs pursuing
sexual congress with a red chaise long. He was kneeling
at the feet of his chaise and sniffing its plush
minutely inch by inch, in hopes that some vaginal tang
might still be lingering. Eight weeks after Melissa Paquette had lain,

(01:17:13):
there ordinarily distinct and identical smells dust, sweat, urine, the
dayroomreek of cigarette smoke. The fugitive after scent of quim
became abstract and indistinguishable from the over smelling, and so
he had to pause again and again to refresh his nostrils.
He worked his lips down into the chai's buttoned navels
and kissed the lint and grit and crumbs and hairs

(01:17:35):
that had collected in them. None of the three spots
where he thought he smelled Melissa where was unambiguously tangy.
But after exhaustive comparison, he was able to settle on
the least questionable of the three spots, near button just
south of the backrest, and give it his full nasal attention.
He fingered the buttons with both hands, the cool plush
shaving his nether parts in a poor approximation of Melissa's

(01:17:59):
skin until he fired. Only achieved sufficient belief in the
smells reality, sufficient faith that he possessed some relic of
Melissa to consummate the act. Then he rolled off his
compliant antique and slumped on the floor with his pants
undone and his head and the cushion. An hour closer
to having failed to call his father on his birthday,

(01:18:20):
an hour it's disturbing. Did you guys ever do it
with a object? I didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:18:31):
I would just want to answer quickly no before we
move on.

Speaker 2 (01:18:38):
I just feel like this is a thing or like
someone so fucking a pie or whatever, And I'm like,
but it's not about the thing. It's maybe like it's
about what's in your head. No, I just mean, like
I would assume it's like he's like more just like

(01:18:59):
masturbating on to something. But in his it's the fantasy
and his head. It's nothing to do with the actual.
I don't know. That's just how I Maybe I'm wrong,
but that's how.

Speaker 4 (01:19:07):
I, I will sayd me like really imagining what this
Shasee looked like.

Speaker 1 (01:19:14):
I was like, yeah, I don't understand it was a redhead.
Let's start there.

Speaker 3 (01:19:22):
Buttons buttons in the back that.

Speaker 2 (01:19:24):
We were looking for the red head? Oh my god,
what color hair did uh Denise have? Did we have
any redheads?

Speaker 1 (01:19:30):
What are we doing with the button?

Speaker 2 (01:19:32):
Yeah, fingering them.

Speaker 4 (01:19:34):
I don't understand the button.

Speaker 2 (01:19:35):
I can't. I don't understand that. I don't believe it.

Speaker 4 (01:19:39):
And were they like depressed buttons where they popped out buttons.

Speaker 3 (01:19:43):
I was imagining depressed.

Speaker 2 (01:19:46):
I was too. I don't know, but that was that
was also the segment that got it nominated for that sex.

Speaker 3 (01:19:55):
I think that was the part that John was saying
was a mess.

Speaker 5 (01:19:59):
Yeah, we could do ask the author, but do you guys,
do you guys want to do and ask the author?

Speaker 1 (01:20:15):
Sure?

Speaker 2 (01:20:16):
I made that really unappealing. I'm so well, I mean,
we said yes, yeah, you all said sure. So some reason?
Did I write a question down for us the authors?
The other questions?

Speaker 3 (01:20:27):
I haven't prepared?

Speaker 2 (01:20:30):
Okay, all right, Jonathan, Yes, tell me how long did
it take you to write the book? And what did
you do when you finished it?

Speaker 3 (01:20:39):
It took seven hundred years to rest book. And when
I finished it, I printed it all out and I
put it on top of my desk and I sat
down and I looked at it, and I just thought
about how fucking smart I am.

Speaker 2 (01:21:00):
Thank you, Thank you, Jonathan. Now, Jonathan, Yes, how long
did it take you to write the book? And what
did you do when you finished it?

Speaker 4 (01:21:08):
Well, when I think about time and how long something took,
I look to all the women that I've had sex with,
and it took me through three women and their supple breast.
And once I was through those three women, I finished

(01:21:30):
the book and immediately came on the pages beautiful sexy.

Speaker 2 (01:21:38):
Jonathan, how long did it take you to write the book?
And what did you do when you finished?

Speaker 1 (01:21:42):
It took me six days, Sarah. And when I finished,
I closed the document and I opened it and I
hit control F and I word searched breast just to
see how many times I said it in the whole document.
And I didn't change anything. But now I know one

(01:22:07):
hundred and seventeen times, so I I could rib it
like I would any friend.

Speaker 2 (01:22:18):
A friend, it is actually forty nine times.

Speaker 1 (01:22:23):
That's press though, don't we got to consider oh yeah,
you know, yeah, other descript And he asked so many
descriptors it's hard.

Speaker 2 (01:22:30):
It would be hard to even know. Okay, so this
is what he says. He wrote eighty percent of it
in a year. I was on a federal jury. When
I was finishing it. I came to a point when
I had two days left to right the last section
of the last chapter, and then the epilogue. I wrote
each of them in a day, and I finished each
day crying and not sure why, whether because the content

(01:22:52):
was reminding me of sad content in my own life,
or because I was letting go of something that had
given my life structure meaning for nearly a decade.

Speaker 3 (01:23:00):
But that doesn't make jury.

Speaker 2 (01:23:02):
How long.

Speaker 4 (01:23:02):
Did the jury take nine years? If he wrote most
of it in one year.

Speaker 2 (01:23:07):
I think he'd been thinking about the twenty percent must
have taken. I'm assuming twenty percent took just starting it.
Maybe it took nine years and then he actually sat
down and wrote most of it in a year.

Speaker 1 (01:23:21):
Endings are hot. I don't know, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:23:26):
I just like that he he cried after he finished it,
and I thought that was very sweet.

Speaker 1 (01:23:31):
Don't let the mail readers know.

Speaker 3 (01:23:32):
It feels pretentious. It feels pretentious.

Speaker 2 (01:23:35):
And pretentious and and pretentious. No, you're right, you're absolutely right.

Speaker 3 (01:23:40):
Like it's a little close to my joke cancer.

Speaker 2 (01:23:44):
Yeah you won, Yeah, yeah, Claire, I want yeah, Look,
he does have week we can't agree. You know, he's
at least in this book, maybe at least around sex.
The female characters are weak. I feel like, yeah, fair.

(01:24:08):
I think another criticism he's had for like moral simplicity
in the books. That doesn't bother me, though. I don't
mind that, Like I don't need to know where he
lands morally as a writer.

Speaker 1 (01:24:20):
It is morally simplistic about this. I think it's quite complex.

Speaker 2 (01:24:24):
No, the criticism is just that, like you like, don't
know as an what his perspective is, like, he's not
like giving you who's morally correct in certain situations.

Speaker 3 (01:24:37):
Yeah, and I think I like that.

Speaker 2 (01:24:40):
I don't want that.

Speaker 3 (01:24:41):
I don't bite him anything. Yeah, want anyone telling me
who's yeah correct?

Speaker 1 (01:24:46):
I think that's called me waiting. I think it's good.

Speaker 4 (01:24:50):
I just googled is Jonathan friends in sexist? And in
twenty fifteen when he was promote in his book Purity Purity,
he got a lot of criticism for being sexist, and
he's quoted as saying, I'm not a sexist. I'm not

(01:25:10):
somebody who goes around saying men are superior, that male
writers are superior. In fact, I really go out of
my way to champion women's work that I think is
not getting enough tension.

Speaker 1 (01:25:20):
It's just like so I couldn't. I couldn't, I could
not helping them.

Speaker 4 (01:25:28):
Because the help'.

Speaker 2 (01:25:31):
If we're talking about this, I will also say that
people have like asked why he's like always like white
people in his books, and he's just like he said,
like I don't have many black friends. I know, I know,
it's just like my dude, Like I I don't think
he is very good p R like there's some things

(01:25:51):
that I'm like, look you, that's not that's not the
right thing to say.

Speaker 3 (01:25:56):
I think experience or something.

Speaker 2 (01:26:00):
Yeah, are like I yeah, there's so many bet people
better than me. I don't know, or like maybe you
say I would like to improve on this in the
next like are you try to grow whatever?

Speaker 3 (01:26:10):
Anyway, I've chosen to befriend only yeah right right?

Speaker 1 (01:26:16):
So many different answers you have?

Speaker 2 (01:26:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right? Where are we in this bitch?
Is there anything else anybody wants to talk about? Read
the book particular? Do you guys want to go to
like goodreads five star reviews?

Speaker 1 (01:26:32):
Just do it?

Speaker 2 (01:26:32):
I found yeay, Jonath, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:26:42):
This is from Jason, a male reader Jonathan, So don't
flip out a man man? Read it? Okay? Friends? And
who's are you mean? As well? I try to find
a way, even if it's.

Speaker 2 (01:26:56):
Great shopping sides.

Speaker 1 (01:27:00):
Fransin's writing. This is from Jason. Franson's writing is impeccable.
Not only does his understanding of complex familial relationships fascinating me,
but his ability to capture these characters, all five of them,
with such depth. I think that really drew me in
as a reader. They are flawed, emotionally, utterly selfish, and
yet each of them has the capacity for loving one another,

(01:27:21):
even while recognizing their inability to stand up for each
other for more than five minutes at a time.

Speaker 2 (01:27:27):
My god, all right, Johnna, did you just find did
you find any funny five star reviews? I didn't realize
when I was handing this over to you that it
might just be.

Speaker 1 (01:27:36):
A fabian an impulsively readable work of fiction.

Speaker 2 (01:27:41):
This what does that mean? Pulsively relulsively like I.

Speaker 3 (01:27:46):
Have can't put it down. I think it's it's a sort.

Speaker 2 (01:27:49):
Of can't put it down telling.

Speaker 1 (01:27:53):
The opening vignette was a deep dive into the subterranean
conflicts of a middle class home in Middle America.

Speaker 3 (01:27:59):
All these people are fucking pretentious, high on themselves. I
think a lot of people might like this book because
it's like it gives you a bit of be like, yeah,
my fa was fucked up, Yeah it was.

Speaker 2 (01:28:12):
Fucked up, Like like my family was crazy, as like
an excuse for like like why am I the way
I am?

Speaker 3 (01:28:20):
I need some And I think this book gives them
that feeling.

Speaker 1 (01:28:26):
Kelly, I'm just like reading my reviews and getting chills.
Should I keep going I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:28:34):
Know rates all right?

Speaker 2 (01:28:39):
All right, hey, rates.

Speaker 3 (01:28:41):
One out of five one for is it writing a melody,
minus a lot for the length, minus a lot for
the women stuff, minus a lot for pretension, and that
math equals one out of five very good math.

Speaker 4 (01:29:02):
Yeah, I'll just go next. Look, do I recognize that
this is in a different literary echelon than most Meme
book Club books? Yes, I'm not stupid, But I think
that that makes it worse, because this is the type
of thing that we are elevating and referring to as

(01:29:26):
a masterpiece. And I'm sorry, but that's poisoning our brains.
One out of five beautiful.

Speaker 3 (01:29:35):
I'm so glad to have you.

Speaker 2 (01:29:37):
All right, I'm gonna start off with my my rating
on the BBC.

Speaker 1 (01:29:41):
Sure, yeah, five out of five.

Speaker 2 (01:29:44):
Really into the BBC. Extra sound effects were all they
were really on the music. They took out a lot
of the misogyny they did, although some of the stuff
was edited it down. I like, like the affairs and
stuff that made them a little more beautifully flawed kind

(01:30:08):
of basic or like they just I'm not finding the
right word. But anyway, okay, but the book itself, uh yeah,
I'm gonna give it a four point five out of
five because I also thought it was very good. But
I do agree with the critique on women and sex

(01:30:30):
that it just feels very male perspective. But I think
this book moved me many many times. I really enjoyed it,
and I was some part surprised how much I enjoyed it.
So four point five out of five.

Speaker 1 (01:30:47):
I'm glad Sarah joined me here on earth and not
in cool fantasy kidding. This is it is a five.
The only book we've read ever in the history of
our twenty years of doing me in book club that
was better than this was The old Man in the Seat.

Speaker 3 (01:31:12):
That's your team, Sarah.

Speaker 2 (01:31:13):
That the opposite, that's opposite of this book, though in
terms of word counts think about it completely different, very
you know.

Speaker 1 (01:31:21):
But also Hemingway doesn't preach. He lets you decide the
morality of his characters, the.

Speaker 2 (01:31:27):
Morality of the fish, my fucking guns.

Speaker 1 (01:31:31):
Okay, now it's an attack. We've someone swung around, we're
double attacking. Yeah. I thought it was funny. It was
it was quick, it was insightful, quick.

Speaker 2 (01:31:49):
And it moved me deeply.

Speaker 3 (01:31:51):
Fantasy cuckool, I.

Speaker 1 (01:31:52):
Cried, explaining to Matt, the reveal of the father at
the end, when we find out he didn't take the
more the higher pay at his job, which we didn't
even talk about.

Speaker 2 (01:32:04):
Oh, we didn't talk about that. I don't even agree.
I mean if we wanted to, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:32:09):
I mean we're wrapped up.

Speaker 2 (01:32:11):
God, damn it. I had thoughts I'll eat them.

Speaker 1 (01:32:14):
Yeah, it doesn't. It's it almost like it's hard to
even talk about the plot because you we'd have to
be like, well, to understand this, we have to explain
this part. To understand this, you have to explain this part.
It was small, intricate family dynamics. I teared up explaining
them to Matt, and he was like, okay, all.

Speaker 3 (01:32:30):
Right, well, can you give us an example of something
else you've teered up explaining to Matt though, just just
so we understand the spectrum.

Speaker 1 (01:32:41):
Well, I could start crying right now thinking about there's
this commercial about a dog. Basically, if there's an animal
and a commercial, what happens in I don't want to
talk about that food. It's like a commercial, is nothing
too bad happens?

Speaker 3 (01:32:56):
But does he have a bond.

Speaker 1 (01:33:02):
That one get me?

Speaker 2 (01:33:03):
Is it like it isn't a sp c A or
is it like a dog something even more money a
dog that starts eating one kind of dog food when
he's a puppy, and then like, okay, it's dog is dog?

Speaker 3 (01:33:15):
Okay? Now, John, I needed I don't need to pile
on you, but I need to tell you, you know how
your opinion of the office and how Pam is one
of the worst written characters you've ever heard. She cries
at a very similar dog.

Speaker 2 (01:33:28):
Common JOHNA doesn't like Pam because Pam is a reflection.

Speaker 3 (01:33:36):
Well is an example of that. It is an example
of that.

Speaker 1 (01:33:40):
Okay, so they found one normal human thing about her. Congratulations.

Speaker 3 (01:33:46):
This is insane, is very much. I don't think watch
I've watched.

Speaker 1 (01:33:49):
I've watched. I watched so much. I watched it so much.

Speaker 3 (01:33:52):
I don't think you've watched in order watched something. I
just don't understand. All right, Well, you didn't see that.

Speaker 2 (01:34:00):
This is hard for me because I felt like John
and I were on the same team. But then she
kept things being brought up that I disagree with John on,
and it's making me hard to like the Office, Old Man,
the Sea. And then I'm like, what am I doing here?

Speaker 1 (01:34:12):
I mean, I can tell you my hate rates, my
or not my My little fucker is that we're headed.

Speaker 2 (01:34:18):
To Ah, yeah, yes, let's go.

Speaker 3 (01:34:21):
Yeah, why didn't you go first? Start?

Speaker 1 (01:34:23):
So look, I tried to earlier that like Oprah lets
her dog shit everywhere.

Speaker 2 (01:34:27):
I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:34:28):
I wasn't able to find a record of that online,
but I swear I heard it. But honestly, the fact
that both of you guys were like, that's fine, go
go get them some you'll have an assistant cleaned up
the dog poop. No, I have to split my hate
rate between both of you. It goes you and you

(01:34:49):
there and you as well.

Speaker 2 (01:34:51):
And that's from corner one Sarah Clara, all.

Speaker 3 (01:34:56):
Right, would you rather her hit the dog?

Speaker 2 (01:34:58):
No?

Speaker 3 (01:34:59):
What would you rather use.

Speaker 1 (01:35:01):
Her endless billions to train the dog not to poop inside?
So nobody has to.

Speaker 3 (01:35:05):
Clear all right, Well, the dogs in a new environment.
And maybe he thought he was outside. It's a studio,
isn't it.

Speaker 1 (01:35:12):
It could be anything. Well, I don't need to.

Speaker 2 (01:35:19):
I just don't want to publicly go against Oprah.

Speaker 3 (01:35:22):
That's my I think she has many dogs and more
than one had an accident and somebody bitchy pitched about
it is what I think happened.

Speaker 1 (01:35:29):
Okay, I stand down, and I'm scared to go against well,
I'm scared to even say it.

Speaker 2 (01:35:37):
All right, all right, Claire and I I got you.

Speaker 3 (01:35:40):
She does stand down, stand up.

Speaker 1 (01:35:42):
My vote it's half, so it's not a full vote
for you.

Speaker 2 (01:35:47):
I'll see how that alright, we'll see. We'll see how
that goes first times.

Speaker 3 (01:35:51):
Yeah, you might catch on.

Speaker 4 (01:35:57):
Yeah, my vote is dedicated all one person. That person
is the person who is elevating the patriarchy, forgiving misogyny
and bringing up other misogynists that we didn't even need
to talk about. Who some dumb, boring, pretentious vote about

(01:36:21):
a man on a book on a boat. So yeah, Johna,
you're gonna get my little vote.

Speaker 3 (01:36:26):
I'm gonna vote for jonas well. Not just because she
like keeps insisting that the book is so great even
though she knows that there are plenty of things criticized
about it. But remember when I was like, I'm gonna
try hard to do a bridge between John and Sna.
I was like trying to throw her bone a little bit,
and then she like ignores that and votes half for

(01:36:47):
me Jona. Yeah, right, But honestly, even if she hadn't
done that, I would have voted for just for the
book thing.

Speaker 2 (01:36:53):
I have done the math. I see now that my
vote is pointless.

Speaker 1 (01:37:01):
Change that's it.

Speaker 2 (01:37:07):
So I will just I will throw a vote at myself.
I will say voting in myself because it seems as
though you in a funny way, I'm getting away with
sharing John's opinion but not not getting any.

Speaker 1 (01:37:24):
Of the bagash.

Speaker 2 (01:37:28):
And that's just that's a good point.

Speaker 3 (01:37:29):
But before you look in, before you lock in, okay,
I just want to remind you that our wonderful producer
Blake does keep a running total. So your vote does.

Speaker 2 (01:37:41):
Like he's going to do. Wait, what's going to happen?

Speaker 1 (01:37:43):
Wait?

Speaker 2 (01:37:43):
Are we going to really funny.

Speaker 1 (01:37:49):
At the end of a final score?

Speaker 3 (01:37:51):
It was funny last time because it was like it
was like, clear, it's funny, it's funny.

Speaker 2 (01:38:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, okay, okay. I didn't know that
was votes. I thought that was like number of little
fuckers one, so I would you're right, it is number
of little yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:38:11):
But you know Blake, he's always up in his game.
It's going to be votes next.

Speaker 2 (01:38:16):
Time, all right, Well, next time we'll we'll make sure
to hear the all right, well, congratulations Seanna, you won
once again starting season twenty off on a hot streak.

Speaker 3 (01:38:29):
Familiar, It's familiar to our listeners. I think it's a
nice thing to do.

Speaker 2 (01:38:34):
Thankes.

Speaker 1 (01:38:34):
Everybody comfortable?

Speaker 4 (01:38:35):
Can I say just to George, I feel like by
and this is no shade to any other mean book
club book, but by picking a real book, it really
devolved into almost a real book club.

Speaker 1 (01:38:53):
Yeah, George, close, clever?

Speaker 2 (01:38:56):
Why not don we make I think that.

Speaker 3 (01:38:59):
So some of us fought back against that by listening
to the audio please.

Speaker 2 (01:39:04):
But we thought how we tried. I thought I had
the book, you know what, Speaking of college, JOHNA, I
definitely had, like got this book in college, like I
think I I must have been after Freedom came out. Yes,
I think, yeah or something whatever.

Speaker 4 (01:39:18):
And I remember with I hope they serve beer and
hell and you were like I got it.

Speaker 2 (01:39:23):
I was actually I got it because I was like
living with my grandparents and I was like, oh, this
the dynamics, which I actually I still feel like, Oh,
I would have really related to it at the time.
So just because I was living with my grandparents, but
I did get it, and I just I never read it.
I know I never read it because I was not
familiar with the book. So next book we have is

(01:39:46):
prep by Curtis Sitting Felled.

Speaker 1 (01:39:48):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:39:48):
Congratulations Curtis getting their third book.

Speaker 1 (01:39:51):
Yeah, I think that's a record we've now this will
be our first.

Speaker 2 (01:39:54):
Wow, amazing three Curtis. As always, you can join our Patreon,
become a patron of the Mean Arts, and as you
know from this episode, if you give us enough money,
we will read your book. So there's also a lot
of other different there's a lot of other tiers where
you get cool stuff, and we're gonna start bothering people

(01:40:15):
in the tier where they're supposed to like be recording
their thoughts on books to you know, actually do those
recording so we can include them in the podcast because come.

Speaker 1 (01:40:25):
We ask, and if you don't want to, that's okay. Yeah,
I'll be bothered. I guess the last like one time then.

Speaker 2 (01:40:32):
Okay, sure, sure sure. But also check out our TikTok,
check our Instagram, and Blake is now putting stuff up
on YouTube too, so you can find us a lot
of key places. And yeah, and we got a cool
website out, so check that out as well.

Speaker 1 (01:40:50):
Thanks Sarah Good work. We're trying all right. Season twenty
tag to cat

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