Who Moved my Cheese by Spencer Johnson

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
There's this maze, and somehow these two mice and these
two little people find their way into it. But they're
not the only people in this world. Will friends and
neighbors into the maze and to show them they're cheese?

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Yeah, exactly when I was waiting to bring us. That
is a huge breakdown.

Speaker 3 (00:19):
What's going on?

Speaker 2 (00:20):
I can't imagine something more unappealing business stable.

Speaker 1 (00:25):
I feel like you would literally have to do no
editing to make this into a children's picture book, Like
the word count is already there.

Speaker 3 (00:33):
Why do you have me here? Why am I here?
You want me to perform in this maze? What is this?
Oh my god?

Speaker 4 (00:38):
Am I about to defend this book?

Speaker 3 (00:40):
Hold on? Oh my god, I try to defend it.
I don't even know how you get Hello everyone, and
welcome back to me book Club. This week we read
Who Moved My Cheese? By Spencer Johnson Woo Getting the maze?
Where to go?

Speaker 4 (00:58):
I don't know, but maybe I'll explain it a lot
of time, a lot of times.

Speaker 3 (01:02):
Well, this is a real this was a real fun one.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
As always getting a catchphrase going for it, get in.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
I think that is something because there's something like that
I should have looked it up, but there were like
were catchphrases that the dumb mice said, I mean, sorry,
little people, Jesus Christ will go. We'll get into it.
I'm sure if you don't know this, we're gonna but
well we'll help you.

Speaker 4 (01:24):
Yeah, we promised. It's the book. No, we have just Sarah.

Speaker 3 (01:29):
It's it's fair to be confused.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
But yes, there's tiny people amazed as well. It's a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:36):
It's not we are mean book club. We read New
York Times bestsellers that maybe shouldn't be. We are your host,
as I said, I'm Sarah Burton.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
What's up. It's Clara Morris.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
How's it hanging?

Speaker 4 (01:49):
Jonas Gravis, it's hanging real low Sopria insjored it.

Speaker 3 (01:53):
That's where we want it. That's ideal, but you can
believe it.

Speaker 4 (01:59):
We didn't plan that.

Speaker 3 (02:02):
I think they I think they know. I want to
tell you, guys, why we're reading this book. Okay, it
was Patron Patty wyn Jam Okay she said this, Hi,
lovely ladies. Patty. Here. I've been in. I've been an
enormous fan for about six and a half years and
caught up on your whole back catalog. Keep up, keep
up the caddy. Good work. Note to self, We're probably

(02:25):
going to hide some of the back catalog, so get
it in. Why you can't, uh yeah, why why? Because
we're re releasing from the vault, so you have to
put it in those vault from the vault.

Speaker 4 (02:38):
You can't just be like.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
Excuse me, excuse me. The vault's been opened this whole time.

Speaker 3 (02:46):
Okay, the vault.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
Afraid that there was some trouble.

Speaker 3 (02:50):
Me too, I'm so sorry. Yeah, anyway, Patty continues, I
have a book recommendation that I think is perfect for
many reasons. Who moved my First of all, it's a
bona fide bestseller and spend five years on the New
York Times list, so no surprise is about a non
be years. Yes, all of that. So yes, Also, a

(03:11):
few books have done such irreparable damage to the American psyche.
It's basically a pamphlet about layoffs and how any worker
who's laid off only has themselves to blame. And when
I say pamphlet, I mean it's super duper short, so
everyone will be happy. We were. She really knows, it's
really good, really good.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
She did listen.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
Yeah, I've never felt more heard. It's all framed around
the dumbest possible parable about a mouse who's upset that
their human overlord move their cheese. I would say, it's
a little off, but we'll get into it. You will
hate it. That's true. There are many actual, documented cases
of employers gifted gifting their works this book only to
immediately lay them off. This is a harbinger of destruction,

(03:51):
a moth made of books. I love the pod you ladies,
even Johnna. I will say. It does seem like Johnna
gets off on the villain, and so I was understandably
distrustful of her in the beginning. It's funny and all,
but I do worry. I would need to watch my
back if we knew each other in the real world.
Top for now, Patty, oh my god, Patty coming in.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
And then a quick sign up.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
I did like a brutal straight bullet takes me out
At the end of it.

Speaker 4 (04:25):
I wouldn't. I would say it was at I like.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
You guys all, even Johnna when pointing the gun at.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
So good, so like it's even just like it's like,
I like you all, goes without saying John means but
I've warmed up as best I can.

Speaker 3 (04:51):
I'm scared of you know, I just love Sarah. Yeah
that is. I don't I don't know how this happened,
but I mean it has happened. I think for sure.
I just maybe I'm maybe I'm messed up, Like why
aren't I the villain? Maybe I need to step up
my game. I don't know.

Speaker 4 (05:12):
You're scared that and I both loved not being the villain.

Speaker 1 (05:17):
It's true, so obviously Sarah.

Speaker 3 (05:22):
Okay, so how did you guys read this one?

Speaker 4 (05:26):
Oh boy, I'll go first. I, first of all, really
thought that there was no world in which this would
not be available at the library, but it wasn't, and
so I had to get it on an audible, which
was a bit of a toss because the book itself

(05:46):
was cheaper than a credit, but I already had the credits,
so buying it was spending more money.

Speaker 3 (05:52):
I wouldn't have done that.

Speaker 4 (05:53):
So I can't even remember what I chose.

Speaker 3 (05:57):
Actually, I think, I hope not the credit.

Speaker 4 (06:00):
I think I bought it. I think I bought it,
but I did debate it. And for me, because I
bought the credit package, it was only like one dollar
cheaper than a credit, so it wasn't a big difference,
but I did think about it anyway. Audiobook three point
five time speed. Let me tell you, why did you

(06:20):
use it?

Speaker 3 (06:22):
Because you listen to it in fifteen minutes?

Speaker 4 (06:26):
Well it was. I listened to it in about twenty
five minutes. Yeah, ye, honestly it was great. On a bridge.
It is an hour and twenty nine minutes.

Speaker 3 (06:37):
I think, yeah, it's the fucking shortest. It's definitely the
shortest thing we've ever done.

Speaker 1 (06:41):
And also fifty minutes of that are an introduction and
afterward and end notes. Yeah, so it's actually only like
forty minutes of book.

Speaker 3 (06:53):
Yeah, yeah, it's great.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
Do you think that that contributed to why it was
a bestseller? People are like, well, I'm not as well.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
Full well read a book in my life.

Speaker 2 (07:02):
They make it a little gift.

Speaker 3 (07:05):
Yeah it feels good. Oh, we'll get into it. For sure.
It was gift.

Speaker 4 (07:10):
I feel like Sarah is like portraying like there's a
lot to get into, but there's a lot to get
it little to get into.

Speaker 3 (07:18):
Oh no, no, no, she's done some research. I've memorized
is no, I haven't memorized this book, but uh, okay,
so that's Sabrina did. Did anybody else do aud audiobook?
How'd you guys get through?

Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (07:30):
I did an audiobook and I did not even look
at the price. I just used a credit.

Speaker 3 (07:34):
Wow, okay, you guys are I got it out of
the library, so big talk. I guess I requested it
in time. But I also got the summary, like I
didn't realize immediately I requested and I accellently requested summary
of this book. And I also got that and I
did not listen to it. But I was like, what
the why the fuck does this book have a summary? Book?

Speaker 1 (07:56):
Like?

Speaker 4 (07:56):
Yeah, this book which is just four summaries of it.

Speaker 3 (08:00):
Yes and yeah, over and over again, John, how did you?
How did you read it?

Speaker 1 (08:04):
I spent the credit. It pained me to do so,
but I really got over confident on this one. I
looked at the length. I said, an hour and forty
five minutes, I'll do this day of this is I'll
be fresh?

Speaker 3 (08:20):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (08:21):
And we got into a panic all of a sudden.
It was how am I going to get this book?

Speaker 3 (08:26):
Where this book?

Speaker 1 (08:27):
Will I have time to read this book?

Speaker 3 (08:28):
I d it. I bet you could find PDFs of
this book. I mean, I didn't d percent if anybody
had felt the need. Maybe this audible thing is really
detrimental to us. It's weakening, all right, I think I know,
I know from like reading other reviews, and then I
went and looked at PDFs of the book that like

(08:50):
there's some it's kind of like drawling. I don't know,
it's like even more childlike than when you're listening to it.
Oh kind of thing. But uh, all right, so that's
how we read it. I read you guys, ready for
Sarah sums it up for everyone who oh yeah, doesn't
know what it is or wants a reminder? Are you
gonna scroll down? Let's go, I'm gonna do some Cassie Sabrina,

(09:12):
could you be Michael? Johnna? Could you be Angela?

Speaker 5 (09:16):
Uh?

Speaker 3 (09:17):
And Clara? Could you be Carlos? And I'll be Lena? Okay,
all right, Michael, Angela, Carlos, and Lena gather around a
punch bowl at their twenty year high school reunion.

Speaker 4 (09:31):
You know, I still think about that story I told
last time we were all here, who moved my cheese?

Speaker 1 (09:37):
Oh right, the one with the little people who were
the size of mice or mice that could talk, or
were the actual mice And then there were also little
people forced to live as mice. Did we ever get
a backstory there?

Speaker 2 (09:53):
Their names were Sniff, Scurry, Pim and haw Right. They
were all in some kind of maize looking for cheese.
Classic metaphor stuff.

Speaker 3 (10:02):
Wait what the cheese represent again?

Speaker 4 (10:05):
Whatever you want it to success, a relationship, a job,
anything you value. The whole idea was life changes, and
if you cling too tightly to the old cheese, you
get stuck.

Speaker 1 (10:22):
Oh that was hem, wasn't it. He refused to believe
that cheese was gone. Do you think Ham was shrunk
in a shrink ray or do you think he was
born that small?

Speaker 2 (10:34):
No idea, Angela, But back to the story. Sniff and Scurry,
the mice didn't overthink it. They just noticed the cheese
was gone. They moved on.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
But mice can't think right like, of course, they don't
overthink it. They choose electrical wires and pissed and shit
wherever they eat. And that's who you should be looking
up to. And how did they get so small?

Speaker 3 (11:02):
Angela, have some more punch, But the little people on
Paul he hesitated, remember, and he eventually laughed at himself
and went looking for the cheese.

Speaker 4 (11:10):
Right right, He learned to adapt. He realized if you
do not change, you can become extinct. So he overcame
his fear and stepped back into the maize.

Speaker 3 (11:26):
Oh kind of like after college huh.

Speaker 2 (11:29):
Or layoffs or breakups.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
Or after workplace discrimination. Just look for other cheese. Find
a different racist cheese or does that only apply to
the little people? Do you think a magic spell was
cast on them and that's how they got to are racist?

Speaker 3 (11:48):
Uh? Okay, maybe we should clarify the lesson. Just you know,
for angela.

Speaker 4 (11:54):
Simple change is inevitable. The cheese will always move, So
you accept that and act, the better your chances of
finding nude cheese.

Speaker 1 (12:05):
I remember, always wear sneakers around your neck right like
a necklace. Is that a gen z thing?

Speaker 3 (12:12):
Or what?

Speaker 1 (12:13):
The fashion is hard because we're so old.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
The listen is, don't be a hen.

Speaker 4 (12:19):
Be more hole or better yet, be like the mice.

Speaker 3 (12:22):
Don't over complicate things right.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
Keep it simple. Don't mention your impending divorce. Don't mention
your son taft just got kicked out of his school
for poop smearing. Don't mention your former business partner went
behind your back and bankrupted your essential oils company, focus
on something else. Look at this punch.

Speaker 3 (12:57):
She's a new cheeseees.

Speaker 2 (13:01):
Better, really good, really good. I wish I had got
cast as Angela.

Speaker 3 (13:09):
Order we nailed that.

Speaker 5 (13:11):
Laugh.

Speaker 3 (13:11):
I think I think we did.

Speaker 4 (13:14):
Thank you. I could have you remember too many cooks.

Speaker 3 (13:18):
I didn't.

Speaker 4 (13:18):
I was inspired by that.

Speaker 3 (13:20):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah that's it. What is it, Clara,
go ahead.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
I didn't know how to play Carlos. I did different.
I was happy. I was regular at the end.

Speaker 3 (13:29):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (13:30):
No small parts, only small actors.

Speaker 3 (13:32):
Honey.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
I never meant to imply.

Speaker 1 (13:37):
Some characters just need to say past this.

Speaker 3 (13:40):
Yeah you should be happy.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
Then about what was written. I was, I suppose agreeing
with you that there are small actors. I was admitting
I almost wrote unbelievable.

Speaker 3 (13:54):
I almost wrote something in cheese puns. But then I
I started to hate myself, so I yeah it changed course.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
I'm just a little bit. Yeah, this was really good.
This was really good.

Speaker 3 (14:06):
I want to I like Angela. I might want us
to do like a million act outs of those people,
because like it's written so poorly, and like all those
the characters talking about like.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
The book, oh yeah, they.

Speaker 3 (14:21):
Set up talking about the parable with these This just
basically like it's a high school reunion and it's just
so bad, Like it's just forced.

Speaker 2 (14:31):
And they're sitting at a table, no personalities. Literally, it's
like one of them says something and they're like, you
were captain of the football team.

Speaker 4 (14:44):
Yeah, it's written like you was written in five minutes,
but it did take twenty years.

Speaker 3 (14:49):
Yeah, apparently it did. Let's let's uh, let's get into that.
After Johnna's jugs. Okay, Johnna, yeh, do you have a parry?

Speaker 1 (14:58):
Oh my god, I'm in an absolute I forgot about
John's john.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
Oh my god, I feel like you already talked about
being in a panic this episode.

Speaker 3 (15:07):
I have a book, I have a jug.

Speaker 1 (15:10):
You have a jug? Oh thank god? Sabrina is.

Speaker 3 (15:15):
It like milkid? I don't know.

Speaker 1 (15:20):
Serena's my savior. Serena saves it the day. Sena saves
the day.

Speaker 4 (15:24):
Okay, Wow, I have two ways that I could do this.

Speaker 3 (15:28):
So I'm gonna.

Speaker 4 (15:29):
I'm gonna give you jug options.

Speaker 3 (15:32):
Okay, Okay.

Speaker 4 (15:34):
The first jug is milk.

Speaker 3 (15:37):
Yeah, that makes it makes sense. I get it.

Speaker 4 (15:40):
Yeah, because yeah, milk turns into cheese. It's my understanding
of how the process.

Speaker 3 (15:45):
I don't even know anything else.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
I'm with Serena. I've not been offered milk. Yeah, I
think that's the jug. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (15:53):
My second jug is just generally wine because the wine
should be anything you want it to be, and you
compare it with cheese. Wine is also anything you want
it to be.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
That's true.

Speaker 3 (16:09):
It's funny because and they say that in the story,
but in the story it is just cheese. So it's
it's weird that they're like, within the story, do you
know what I'm saying? The story, they're like, yeah, for
the little people, cheese was could be any of these things,
but but it wasn't. In the story. Cheese was just cheese. Like, yeah,

(16:30):
it was weird the thing.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
They ate, right, which really kind of messed up as meta.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
What are you doing here, bud? But a lot of issues.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
Have you guys heard of have a jug question? Okay,
have you guys heard of the story? Hey tea? No,
it's new is hopping. They have a new kind of
thing they put on the top of the tea, which
is called cheese cream, which is a bad name, but
it is like whipped cream of cream cheese.

Speaker 3 (17:00):
Oh, this would be the perfect drink for such a.

Speaker 4 (17:04):
I don't want to ever try that.

Speaker 3 (17:07):
I try try it.

Speaker 2 (17:08):
Hate the stores is just hate tea.

Speaker 4 (17:12):
The way that is so us as to how it
might be spelled.

Speaker 2 (17:16):
I H E Y T T E the regular. It's
a T store, so all regular.

Speaker 3 (17:23):
It's from Cha okay. I see you have it at
Tyson's corner. That's where you get right, I.

Speaker 2 (17:28):
Haven't right down the road closer store.

Speaker 3 (17:32):
It's Chinese.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
When it was a tea store, I was like, like
glutter t.

Speaker 3 (17:38):
It's it's in shang. I didn't.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
Google lines out the door.

Speaker 3 (17:46):
I'm interested, I gottata.

Speaker 2 (17:47):
I'm interested to. I'm interested to.

Speaker 4 (17:49):
When you listen to this episode, I do want you
to hear the recording of yourself saying, hey tea, just
the way you'd spell hate tea, and yeah, like hate
a place like you know.

Speaker 5 (18:03):
Oh.

Speaker 3 (18:05):
I was.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
If you want to look up what she's talking about,
it's h E y oh my god.

Speaker 3 (18:09):
They know by now, they knew, they knew immediately.

Speaker 2 (18:12):
I think because I was talking about T shop before.

Speaker 3 (18:17):
I think I think thelous. All right, all right, guys,
let's keep going. Let's get into this. It's a good
jug all right, guys.

Speaker 4 (18:29):
Wait, why was this a jug question?

Speaker 2 (18:31):
It was because it would be a good jug for
the Oh My question was have you heard of it?

Speaker 3 (18:37):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (18:37):
Really coming, really going for all right here.

Speaker 3 (18:41):
All right, guys, let's get to this book. It's called
Who Moved My Cheese? An amazing way to deal with
change in your work and in your life.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
It doesn't want to give you a way to die.

Speaker 3 (18:50):
You have to do it.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
By Sponsored Johnson's.

Speaker 3 (18:55):
I guess let's yeah, okay. The book was published in
nineteen ninety eight. It is a business fable.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
It was a new genre. I don't want to read.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
I didn't more unappealing business fable.

Speaker 3 (19:09):
I have it with at least fifty three min It
was a New York Times bestsellerupuon release and remained on
the list for nearly five years. So yeah, that was what.
And it was originally a fifty three week Yeah. It
was also a long running bestseller for Publishers Weekly, over
two hundred weeks. I was listening to something where they said, like, oh,
people had to start stop, start taking off the shelves

(19:30):
because like you know how they have like the New
York Times bestseller and it was like always there that
people thought like, why aren't you updating it? Like this
book has been here for a year, and they're like, well,
yeah so, And as of twenty eighteen, had sold almost
thirty million copies worldwide. It's been translated into forty four languages,
so it has a bunch of different versions too. How

(19:51):
to share this? There's Who Moved My Choose? For Kids,
which I think is probably as drawings, But there's also
a Who Moved My Choose for Teens, which is essentially
the same book, only instead of a high school reunion,
they're like at a high school cafeteria on they're teenager.

Speaker 1 (20:07):
I feel like you would literally have to do no
editing to make this into a children's picture book, like
the word count is already there.

Speaker 3 (20:15):
Yeah, honestly, cut things that they should have cut for
adults is what probably what they cut around. But uh,
and there is this weird movie version I found that
looks oh, I don't know how it got.

Speaker 1 (20:28):
We can share it, yes, please, let's share it.

Speaker 3 (20:32):
It's yeah, it's a little ridiculous. But why is this
the best seller? You know what? I'll go into that later.
I don't need to. We'll talk about the mister Spencer
Johnson it's a cliffhanger, you know, it's a little cliffhanger.
I'll try to go in that fest. Spencer Johnson, he
was someone who avoided the spotlight, avoided publicity, so there's

(20:54):
not a ton known about him, but we know he's
born in nineteen thirty eight, South Dakota. He got a
degree from USC medical degree from the Royal College of
Surgeons in Ireland. So this was a guy on the
road becoming doctor surgeon.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
Now I'm going to USC, not University of Southern California.
I'm assuming it's.

Speaker 3 (21:12):
No use the University of Southern Yes, yes, okay, okay, okay.
I just.

Speaker 2 (21:20):
I just assumed he was too stupid to know us.
Because he seems really stupid.

Speaker 3 (21:25):
We're going to keep going.

Speaker 2 (21:28):
Correspondence school that's also called us.

Speaker 3 (21:31):
Fair Fair Quest. It was the real one, really university's
school college. So this was something I was a New
York Times article had because he died in twenty eighteen.
But to his death, there was an artist some article
that had some information about him, and it said that
at the time he was seen, he was doing you know, residency.

(21:54):
He felt a lot of diseases, were people lacking something
in their soul, and he wanted to fix them from
the inside. This is like kind of fucked up. So
I want to give you a little bit more. It's
so weird that.

Speaker 4 (22:06):
Sounds nice, honestly.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
It makes it sound like every disease is your fault.

Speaker 2 (22:10):
While he was working in the hospital and then he's
the rapist who's going to fix it.

Speaker 3 (22:15):
He grew frustrated on seeing the same patient's return with
the same ailments as if they were not trying to
better their lives. Oh, isn't that fucked up? Like I
don't know. So he was at at the Mayo Clinic
and Harvard Medical School at this time, and he was
working in the hospital and he was got frustrated by
all these sick people just kept being sick. So he

(22:37):
left up. He left to work for a medical device manufacturer,
essentially in their PR like writing PR stuff, and I
guess from there kind of went into business side things.
But it's just like, yeah, just what a what an
evil place to start from, Like, okay, but he has

(22:58):
I don't know, he had some children, he had some
two wives not at the same time. Saying that he
started to get into kind of this business beat in
the eighties where he worked with Ken Blanchard, who had
already been writing business books, but they weren't.

Speaker 4 (23:14):
Any relation to Gypsy Rose.

Speaker 3 (23:17):
You know, not that I'm that's gonna have to be
a deep dive for someone else because I did not
do that research. And I apologize. I apologize for not
first off, but yeah, he wrote. So they and they
had bestseller in the eighties called The One Minute Manager,
and it got and became like a series or a
ton of spin offs. It was not a real book.

(23:37):
It was also just sixty five pages, and apparently to
the publisher. The publisher was like, this is only sixty
five pages. We should probably make this pretty cheap, and
they were like, no, no, no, don't do that. Make
a full price. People will think will not buy it
if they are like, think it's cheap, And that was true.
It actually was a good call. And some of the
spin offfics.

Speaker 4 (23:57):
That's like the Dale, Yes it is, it is. Wow,
can't from can't believe I remembered what book that came from?

Speaker 1 (24:07):
Well, the advice and self help books stick with you.

Speaker 3 (24:10):
Or it's all the same as also possible, there's some
of the spa spawns of It was one minute Father
and one minute Teacher, which I don't know. I didn't
look into what these were, but it just I don't think.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
Minute Father, well that is possible.

Speaker 3 (24:27):
True second father, and I'm out out of the picture.
He wrote another book ninety two to.

Speaker 1 (24:36):
At least be an eight minute father.

Speaker 3 (24:39):
I don't know. We're just talking about how long sex lasts?
Is that what?

Speaker 6 (24:44):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (24:44):
Yeah? Yeah. So basically became like a management guru, and
he did seminars and stuff, and so this was like
a cheese story he told the seminar and eventually he
claimed somebody told him to make it into a book.
But I'm sure, you know, maybe everyone did. I don't know.
So nineteen ninety eight he wrote it came out blast Off,

(25:06):
a huge deal. He you know, we'll get into it.
He died in twenty seventeen at the age of seventy eight,
and his sequel, Out of the Maze was published posthumously
in twenty eighteen. But yeah, I think the big this
this book, like our uh like Patty, our patron said

(25:27):
it did have a big effect in business and kind
of like, how was it successful?

Speaker 4 (25:31):
No, I'm like, is Patty a fake name for a patron?
Patty the patron.

Speaker 3 (25:37):
Oh I don't know. If so, I don't care because
it was a great suggest I think it was really.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
So how did maybe it was you from the future?

Speaker 4 (25:47):
How did this book?

Speaker 3 (25:47):
How did this book get so successful?

Speaker 1 (25:49):
Okay, I yeah, I'd love to know.

Speaker 3 (25:52):
Uh, well, there's there's a few like there's some business
context at this time where like we're in the nineties
and it's life is good, life is good, but like
there's also like a ton of layoffs. There's a lot
of there's a big focus on you know, maximizing profits

(26:13):
to this shareholder and making companies lean and even if
like they're successful, so there's a lot of like we're
doing well, the company's doing well, but they're laying everyone off,
Like what the fuck? A lot of a huge shift
in inequality and eighties and nineties, and so this ideology
kind of came out of this change to change management

(26:34):
to kind of like because there's all these layoffs going on,
so how can we deal with it? So that's kind
of like, okay, so that's it, you get it. It's
like the time was ready for something evil like this.
But the funny part of this be so successful is
that like as again was mentioned before. It was just
like businesses buying it for their employees, like Amway bought

(26:59):
an for its employees, Southwest Airlines apparently bought twenty seven
thousand Mercedes Benz nc NCAA was like, you have to
get this for incoming students and teach it. And Ron
Sorry reportedly gave who Moved by Cheese to companies while

(27:20):
the company wasn't ploating. And then I was just like
on a Reddit thread, it was just so many, so
many people being like like a nurse being like, oh yeah,
there was a staffing crisis and they refused to raise
wages or hire more help, but they gave us who
moved my cheese? And like another one that was like
they gave it to this before they outsourced the entire

(27:42):
department overseas. It was it was just funny, like how
many people were just like this they distributed to everyone
when we were laid off over and over again. Oh
this was a good one. Somebody said, I'm a teacher.
Horrible principle wanted us to adopt a new program that

(28:03):
was around who moved my choose, which I think was
like part of the business arm that they had. After this,
they'd vote for the program, but it was rigged so
they didn't really get to vote. They adopted the program.
Then the principal got a ten thousand dollars bonus for
getting the program. Probably was also like a part of
the way they were making money. I think they were like,

(28:25):
if you do this, we'll give you a bonus for
whoever brings the program in and anyway that she says.
The principal then retired after getting the bonus, which was
you know, in retrospect them like ten thousands. Not but
maybe it was enough. Maybe it was enough at the time.

Speaker 1 (28:39):
It was the nineteen ninety eight you live to rest
your life off that, Yeah, you buy a little house.

Speaker 3 (28:45):
A ten yeah. Yeah, so just one of those books
that you know, Jesus Christ, they're giving it because.

Speaker 2 (28:52):
I don't have to give anything. It's true, you don't
have to give a gift when you were like just
leave them alone.

Speaker 4 (28:59):
But what I had you that's gonna give them severance.

Speaker 3 (29:02):
I think this was for managers and people to make
them sell. Like it was I'm doing this. I'm giving
this to you. You're being laid off, but it's to
make myself feel better as the manager lay you off.
Because it's like you're, oh, your opportunities await, you know,
like shin up, you know you're you're gonna be okay.
And I don't feel.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
Mary cheese you've never had before.

Speaker 4 (29:25):
You're awesome Swiss.

Speaker 3 (29:26):
Yeah, and you're being laid off because you're a hall
you know, a hem and a hall. So you need
to read this and learn to not be like that.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
So here's the big problem with this business fable. The
premise is that these two mice and these two little
people are sent into a maze and they're just randomly
given cheese one day, and then they become dependent on
the cheese, and then the cheese gets will yes yeah,

(29:58):
and the cheese gets taken away and they're like, ah,
who moved my cheese? I deserve this cheese. I count
on this cheese. And it's supposed to be this parable
for work and how like you know, they freaked out
instead of seeing it as an opportunity for change. But
that relies on the idea that my job is something

(30:18):
that was given to me out of charity unexpectedly, not
something I needed or was seeking out, Like my job
fell into my lap and it's something that I eat also, yeah,
and I've come to rely on fully without doing anything

(30:38):
in that position.

Speaker 4 (30:40):
Oh my god, am I about to defect queen hold on?

Speaker 3 (30:43):
Oh my god, I try to defend it. I don't
even know how you can.

Speaker 4 (30:59):
Know what I'm Okay, No, But what I was gonna
say is I have a lot to complain about on
this book. But I thought the messaging that I took
away okay at my three point five time speed wasn't
exactly that. Like what I took away was Okay, you
have this cheese, and I think, honestly like it being

(31:23):
there for simplicity was for simplicity. In the book, it's like,
you have this cheese. You're at a place in life.
We are all at a place in life, and the
place we are at life is this cheese. And you
keep going back to this cheese. And this cheese right
now is what's fulfilling to you and what is propelling

(31:44):
your life forward. But one day it could be gone,
or one day it could no longer sate you, and
you need to not be afraid to go looking for
other cheese. This is not the only cheese in the maze.
This is not the only job you'll ever have. This
is not the only relationship you'll ever be in. And

(32:04):
you know, just because this cheese is there doesn't mean
you should keep going back to this cheese. If this
cheese is no longer doing it for you, or it
happens to disappear, there's going to the other cheese. You
are just too afraid of change to find it.

Speaker 3 (32:22):
This is this is That is the nicest over simplification
of my life.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
But it's also like for me, the equivalent of like
if there was just a big pile of mulch I
got and one day the mulch went away, I didn't
Why why was I given mulch at all? I was
able to forge for my own?

Speaker 2 (32:42):
Mult didn't find you didn't they have to find the cheese.

Speaker 3 (32:45):
They did. They had to originally find it to work
for it. In the parable, it says, it says the
difference again, why the fuck are there little people in mice?
Why aren't they all mice? Like?

Speaker 4 (32:57):
Why are people?

Speaker 3 (32:58):
This doesn't make any fucking sense. Why the mice?

Speaker 4 (33:01):
You actually can just have it be mice.

Speaker 3 (33:04):
Yeah, like made it more confusable, It made it way
more confusing. And why do the mice have sneakers? Anyway?
They the rule says something like about how the rules
of the world don't make sense. Okay, but it says
something about like, oh, they're looking for the cheese, and
like the little mice like they what are their names?
Scurry and they sniff and scurry and that's how they

(33:27):
find the cheese. But the humans use their brain and
there but.

Speaker 4 (33:31):
It doesn't they don't say it doesn't say.

Speaker 3 (33:33):
How, doesn't go it all into how they use it,
just they've just that's mentioned. And then like but they're
but they're fucking idiots because apparently, like the cheese has
been getting moldy, they say later the she's been getting
moldy the cheese, the mound of the cheese has been
getting less and less, and our fucking idiot humans haven't
noticed at all. That's one problem. And then it happens

(33:55):
and that we're there, we're they're telling us we need
to be like the mice, because mice are just like,
let's go back to finding the cheese. And the humans
are like upset about it, and I'm like, no, I
feel like I would be a little I mean, if
I had cheese all the time it just disappeared, I'd
be a little pissed. Off about it. I'd be like,
what happened? Like they're right, They're like, who moved the

(34:17):
cheese is a fair fucking question because who didn't? Who
is who did move the.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
First place?

Speaker 3 (34:25):
Yeah? Why move your own cheese? You could be the
answer to who moved your But they can't move their
own cheese, not in this they have to find another cheese.
But like in life, you move cheese.

Speaker 4 (34:39):
You could move your own cheese.

Speaker 3 (34:42):
I do that.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
I would amaze.

Speaker 3 (34:47):
Who is the hand in this story? Is that? That's capitalism?
That's like market forces? Like what are we talking about here?

Speaker 4 (34:53):
It depends on what the cheese is, right, Like maybe
the cheese is Maybe the cheese is my Maybe the
cheese is self love.

Speaker 3 (35:04):
Okay, the money because it's easy.

Speaker 4 (35:07):
Yeah, but like it's whatever you need it to be.

Speaker 3 (35:11):
It's still fair. I think it's fair to question who
did that, Like who's putting the cheese? What are the
forces that are placing the cheese here? Because it will
like to know that information would help you be able
to figure out where the cheese might be next.

Speaker 4 (35:27):
If I know, are the fair questions to ask?

Speaker 3 (35:30):
Right?

Speaker 1 (35:30):
If I know that the cheese is being provided by
a cheesemonger. Then the next thing I need to know
is where the origins? Where are their headquarters? That's where
I'll go.

Speaker 3 (35:42):
Let me go to.

Speaker 4 (35:43):
Maybe one day it's a cheesemonger. Maybe one day it's
a person who works in Whole Foods that not in
the cheese section.

Speaker 3 (35:53):
And I don't know.

Speaker 2 (35:53):
There's a lot of.

Speaker 3 (35:56):
Yeah, yeah it does.

Speaker 2 (35:59):
There's a lot of places the metaphor doesn't work at all,
Like even in what we've been talking about. So the
idea that someone moved your cheese and you're pissed off
about it, it doesn't work to in the way he's
describing it for that to be your job or your relationship,
because he also describes him getting weaker from not eating.

(36:19):
So it really pissed me off the bar or whichever
or hem was, like would I was so afraid of change?
He would stay and starved to dead. It took me
out of it, like any human, any would go look,
any human would go look. And and so that was

(36:40):
a place the metaphor broke down.

Speaker 4 (36:42):
Okay, but wait, maybe it doesn't break down right. Maybe
you don't even realize you're starving yourself because it's not
good it's it's like, yeah, you're right, that's not of
a steam is going down. Your mental health is going
that's supposed to be, and don't pull yourself out of that.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
He didn't give them symptoms, didn't give them symptoms of
depression or mental health. He gave them symptoms of starvation.
He said they were getting weaker.

Speaker 4 (37:16):
Okay, sure, I'm sure, but for them it was food.

Speaker 3 (37:19):
I'm fine, I find saying the starvation could be your
in Sabrina's ideas, Like.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
But he also he would also hint it. He say,
he would hint at mental health things, but they were
also starving. And I think that really took me out of.

Speaker 3 (37:34):
The I mean, it was bad. It was bad because
he should have just stuck in the lane of parable
and like stop bringing up like what it could represent
and like let us all determine that, or like let
the people. I mean, he had this whole fucking thing
where adults are talking about the parable. Let them talk
about what it could be. No, within the very story,

(37:54):
he's like, also it could mean this, it could mean
That's not how the parable works.

Speaker 1 (37:59):
We need to talk about another huge way it breaks down,
which is that there's this maze and somehow these two
mice and these two little people find their way into it.
But they're not the only people in this world. Pieces
friends and neighbors into the maze and to show them
their cheese.

Speaker 2 (38:17):
That's exactly what I was waiting to bring us. That
is a huge breakdown.

Speaker 3 (38:21):
That's a huge breakdown.

Speaker 2 (38:23):
What the hell.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
Where are these people getting their quote unquote cheese. Also,
one of the characters is like I've gathered hem is
like I gathered so much cheese at my cheese estate.
I'll have enough cheese to live on cheese Drive someday. Well, now,
let's become.

Speaker 4 (38:39):
Money, because it needed to be money at that time.

Speaker 2 (38:45):
Sabrina, Okay, Sabrina defend the parties, but they threw with
other little people to go see the cheese.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
Then do the parties represent real parties?

Speaker 4 (39:02):
You know, like at that time, the cheese is doing
it for you. At that time, you are loving the cheese.
It's it's it's saying that.

Speaker 2 (39:12):
I think it's saying you're showing off the cheese.

Speaker 3 (39:16):
Off the cheese, yeah right, but you love that, right.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
But in the book, they're not showing it off to
the mice. They're not showing it off to each other.
They're showing it off to other people. Where the fuck
did they live? And how do they do?

Speaker 3 (39:28):
They go to?

Speaker 2 (39:29):
Stout stains them.

Speaker 3 (39:30):
Well, let's go to the other mazes. Are they in
different mazes? Why are we just hanging out this maze?

Speaker 1 (39:34):
They can get in and out of the maze. But
also the solution to Hem and Haw's problems is not
ever to leave the maze, which shows you this community
and village that I guess they live in. It's to
just look in other rooms in the maze, which if
we're talking about a metaphor, then now I'm just still
at the same company and I'm like, oh, I got

(39:55):
fired from my job in the IT department. I'm just
gonna keep slamming my head again to this application to
work in data.

Speaker 2 (40:05):
I'm gonna go back to the building where I worked.

Speaker 4 (40:12):
Well to be invited into the right bring into the maze.
Are actually in other mazes. So it's not like you
can be in the maze or you can be in
this free, wonderful world. It's like you can be in
this you can be in that maze.

Speaker 2 (40:28):
It seems like.

Speaker 1 (40:31):
I'm going to capture one of the mice from the
other goddamn mazes and it's gonna work for me and
I'm gonna ride it to wherever the Jesus. Why don't.

Speaker 3 (40:42):
What happened to? What are these fair weather friends? Also
times got tough? I didn't. I didn't see that.

Speaker 4 (40:47):
Another refer classism friend and friend.

Speaker 3 (40:55):
Also, but the main also, the the main like thing
is like, oh, we should be doing what the mice
are doing, just moving on and not thinking about what
we lost or what it was just like it was
crazy because I'm like, yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't apply
to most situations, anything that's slightly complicated, anything that's like

(41:15):
structural that requires like people to you know, pull the
resources to overcome an issue. It's just like, no, the
issue is you and you just need to move on.
And it's like a very toxic, toxic message.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
Perhaps specific to hem and Haw because they're not smarter
than the mice.

Speaker 3 (41:34):
They are longer than the mice, yes.

Speaker 2 (41:36):
So maybe yeah, they should be more like the mice.
I think my biggest thing with him in Haw was
they have pens to write on the walls and they
write little inspirational sayings, but they don't use it to
help them navigate the maze.

Speaker 3 (41:52):
No, you guys felt like they were pressing them while
he's doing that. I'm lazy. He's going crazy, fully, like
I was.

Speaker 1 (42:02):
Writing things like always smell the cheese, like you imagine
the cheese.

Speaker 3 (42:08):
You will get to the cheese room, No cheese, nobody that.

Speaker 4 (42:16):
I was just sometimes she's could appear where it wasn't before,
so it doesn't matter if you checked her room.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
Well, he said he got lost, so it might have
been good to have some markings.

Speaker 3 (42:25):
Yeah, I felt this. It felt like squid games to me,
like a scarier squid games, honestly, but yeah, again, who
why it? Also if a hand dropped the cheese there,
like bite the hand, bite, Why couldn't have put the
cheese back exactly where they put it? Like maybe the
hall was right to just sit and wait because.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
Maybe the hand is hurt and sick and needs the head.

Speaker 3 (42:51):
I feel like the chances are just just good. He's
gonna drop it right in the same place that somewhere else,
like I don't know it.

Speaker 1 (42:56):
Done even made any sense. Also, when you look at
the terrible as it breaks down there. Basically, when you're
faced with change or challenge, there are four things you
can do. You can be like sniff, which is you
can sniff out the problem before it happens, and like.

Speaker 3 (43:11):
Take or something. I don't even know what he was
doing preemptively, but I just it's he could smell the
mold or something.

Speaker 4 (43:18):
He could smell mold. So he went to find Better's
fresh cheese.

Speaker 1 (43:21):
No he didn't.

Speaker 3 (43:22):
He waited until the very end, and he can just
sneakers around his neck.

Speaker 4 (43:26):
Well he knew, I guess.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
He just so he waited with dread, okay, the entire time,
knowing that the cheese supply was dwindling and becoming less edited.

Speaker 3 (43:34):
He didn't he didn't communicate it to anyone else and
get together, let's try to figure this out.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
No, just like I sense trouble. Okay. So that's one
way you could deal with problems, which is apparently a
good way. You could be like scurry, which is, as
soon as you wait, you do nothing, you have no
sense that anything's going to happen. And then as soon
as something bad happens, you immediately make a reftis decision
and you scurry away to find what God knows what

(44:00):
I don't know, right in the arms of a mousetrap.
Then you could be like haw and apparently the metaphor
there is laugh at yourself, you know, just just like
look at your floibles and your follies and realize like
you're the moron in the end, Yeah, I could have

(44:21):
been a better financial manager. And then there's hem and
I'm not sure what we're supposed to take away from him.

Speaker 3 (44:30):
He got fired at the end, that's the story. Michael
goes back and he's like him's fired.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
So that's it. Those those are the three options. Get
fired and be like him, and I guess just ops insane.

Speaker 2 (44:46):
Screw sniff, I guess is your best one? Anticipation I think.

Speaker 4 (44:51):
Is ultimately your best one. It doesn't he laughing at himself.
He's he learns to evolve.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
He's starving today. He's starving today, and he says insane
when he is starving to death, lost in the maze.
He said, maybe I bid off more than I could chew.
And then he laughed because he didn't have anything to chew.
I don't think someone who isn't going insane from starvation.

Speaker 4 (45:22):
I think he was. He's funny.

Speaker 3 (45:25):
I don't. I don't think he was. I think that
I don't think anything he was funny.

Speaker 1 (45:30):
Those are the words whose faculties were leaving him.

Speaker 3 (45:34):
No, they were all there.

Speaker 4 (45:36):
What he knows?

Speaker 2 (45:38):
You really think?

Speaker 3 (45:39):
I don't, it's so funny and scurry.

Speaker 1 (45:41):
Were in the maze at all. I think there's something.

Speaker 3 (45:43):
That that's a good question.

Speaker 1 (45:48):
I think hal was you know, I'm sad for.

Speaker 3 (45:52):
Hang Yeah, I feel I feel scared for He left
him to die and then was like creating this whole
story to justify what he did.

Speaker 4 (46:02):
What do I know we kind of touched on it,
but what do we really think? The purpose of having
two mice and then too little people.

Speaker 3 (46:12):
Was because you're the little people because people uh overthink,
they have complex thoughts and then they overthink and it
makes them not become fearful and be too afraid to
go after the next cheese. I think that is the
main thing. It's just a very stupid way of doing it.

Speaker 4 (46:30):
Yeah, so just like be thoughtless like a mouse.

Speaker 3 (46:33):
Yes, that's the That is fully the message, which is
which is why it's like an insane book to give
your workers. But was for that purpose to be like,
we don't I don't want you to think too much, guys,
don't question why these why we're making these structural changes
in the business and we're fired. Everyone just go with it,
like be a mouse, grace, Grace Gary.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
Do you guys think a mouse really would move on
to another part of the maze or would they just
like lick at the corners of the wall and scratch
at the corners of the wall.

Speaker 4 (47:04):
Mice find their way out of mazes. That's like, I mean,
that's certainly why it's set here, right, is because that's
like a conscience.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
Experiments are dumb.

Speaker 3 (47:16):
Yeah, I mean, honestly, I don't know why they aren't
just all walking around the maze. I mean, it seems
like you should get some exercise. I mean, if that's
all where you live, why are you staying in one
room like.

Speaker 4 (47:29):
One?

Speaker 2 (47:30):
That's another place. It sort of breaks down, isn't it
that they aren't.

Speaker 3 (47:34):
Having parties, but you're not exploring, but they only go
to this room, So it implies that cheese.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
The parties imply that cheese is so novel you would
have a party to show it off. So what are
the other people eating?

Speaker 3 (47:48):
How bad is it?

Speaker 4 (47:49):
They're just it's different cheese for them, less cheese. But okay,
I got to push back on this because that is
like so true, but that's so true. Of it's like
say that replace cheese with just the word stuff, and
it's like, why are you showing off your stuff? We've

(48:09):
all got stuff, but like they're varying degrees of stuff.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
Do you think I come to your house to see
your stuff?

Speaker 4 (48:16):
Well, I don't host to show my stuff off.

Speaker 2 (48:19):
But like that's what they did do they host like
fashioned cheese. It's you know, so the metaphor of them
having a party behind them they're having a party and
having their friends come to their party was supposed to
be a fashion show.

Speaker 4 (48:37):
Yeah, something like that, like a spectacle.

Speaker 1 (48:40):
Okay, So here's another point of contention I have. At
one point, the smart humans are like, you know what,
can't the cheese isn't in this room. We're gonna get
some sledgehammers. We're gonna knock a hole in the wall.
See if maybe the cheese went into the wall. And
the book's like, wasn't that freaking dumb and stupid? They
could have walked through the main They're knocking holes in

(49:01):
the wall, and I was like like is it or
why is that exactly the kind of outside of the
maze thinking that a good employee should have exactly, well, no,
no cheese here, I've been through this whole maze before.
Time to start knocking down walls.

Speaker 4 (49:17):
Well, and you might think that I defend the book here,
but I happen to agree with you that.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
Aha, it's a good idea.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
There we go, there we go.

Speaker 1 (49:35):
I think they should be burning the maize down building
ladder shoots out of the maze.

Speaker 4 (49:40):
And I need some level of order in the world.

Speaker 3 (49:43):
Yeah, and I still, I still. I just feel like
the stuff that he was like these humans, Oh my god,
look the things they're doing. It's like, no, they were
asking him who moved the cheese? Is the correct question
because it can get at where could be? Yeah, it's important,
like how does my world work? Is essentially what that
question is asking. And I do think, yeah, should know that,

(50:05):
should know that because cheese, Because guess what if the
cheese is going to move again? Don't you want to
know where it might?

Speaker 1 (50:11):
Like robot moving the cheese every four weeks? Is someone
moving the cheese to kill me? In which case I
have an enemy and I should know.

Speaker 3 (50:22):
I don't pull it.

Speaker 4 (50:23):
I don't think it needs to be that. It could
be that dramatic but I don't think it needs to
be that. It be more fun if it could just
be it could just be like, you're at your job
and it's a dead end job and it's no longer
fulfilling you. Inflation is rising, the salary no longer feeds you.
You got to go get a bree cheese job.

Speaker 1 (50:45):
Where am I going to get a bree cheese job?

Speaker 4 (50:47):
Somewhere somewhere else in the main. That's the point, though,
is your mindset is where am I going to get
a bree cheese job? There is no breecheese job out there.
My little shred of American is the only job left.
But when you actually go out into the maize, you're like, oh,
there is a bree cheese job, or maybe don't find

(51:09):
the bree cheese job.

Speaker 1 (51:10):
You're like, monster, Okay, here's a problem with Oh there's.

Speaker 3 (51:15):
The Monster's definitely the monster is definitely paying you less money.
It's definitely paying you less money. I think if you're
getting that monster than American.

Speaker 1 (51:25):
Yeah, fully, Okay, So this is like, hey, you've got
this American.

Speaker 3 (51:28):
We live in America.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
The American cheese is disgusting.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
Well, it depends, you know, if we're talking about a burger.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
Yeah, you work American cheese.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
It comes in steady, Okay, it comes in steady every week. Yeah,
maybe it's been a little less lately. Maybe it's maybe
it's not the quality I was used to, But it's
a steady cheese. But this hem comes over and he's like, hey, man,
what would you do if you had no fear? And
I'd be like, huh, I guess I'd live. I'd go
move to Newport, Rhode Island where the Vanderbilts and the
Rockefellers have their mansion, because that place seems beautiful, and

(52:01):
I I guess I'd like to be a singer. Oh,
I guess I'm I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna go in.
I'm gonna quit my job at the American Cheese corner
of the maze, give a big f you to my mom.
I'm gonna move to Newport, Rhode Island, and there I
will last three months. I have no money. Yeah, I'm

(52:23):
not a singer. I'm not gonnat.

Speaker 3 (52:26):
And is that a go for cheese?

Speaker 4 (52:28):
You can reach?

Speaker 3 (52:29):
Okay, But then it's like to say that in the book,
it doesn't it doesn't it sho it's in a maze.
There's not that. There's not that amount of what like
moving between classes is a lot harder than the book
is making it out. It's like I'm gonna go get
a job, I'm gonna go out and sure, but but

(52:50):
it's like it's crazy to be like I am. This
book is mainly given from a company CEOs to their
low level employees with the message that like you, it's
your fault that you're no longer either getting the bright
money you want or enjoying your job, and that you

(53:11):
need to be the one to fix it.

Speaker 2 (53:13):
Like it's just and like it's not even that it's
your fault. It's like it's not my fault. So you
deal with it like like I will. The onus is
on you. Don't ask me for a reference. The illness
is on you.

Speaker 1 (53:28):
Right, here's what suck. I know it's my tweet. My
cheese is dwindling. I know this. It's getting a little
bit moldy. I sit there and I wait, I've got
night vision goggles that I watch for the hand. The
hand comes in, I fucking latch on the game, and
I say, what's going on with the goddamn cheese? Okay,
I need good cheese. I need to here now, I

(53:50):
need the quality I'm used to or I'm gonna bite
through your skin.

Speaker 4 (53:53):
You why do you have me here?

Speaker 3 (53:55):
Why am I here? You'll need to perform in this space?

Speaker 1 (53:58):
What do you want from me?

Speaker 4 (54:01):
Is this how you talk to your boss?

Speaker 3 (54:03):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (54:04):
Yeah, if he was starving?

Speaker 1 (54:08):
Does that maaving me poison money?

Speaker 3 (54:12):
It's just so sad, I do, Sabrina to go back to,
like the only message I do think that like why
are you well? Like what is the fucking afraid question?
He asked that I feel is it was.

Speaker 1 (54:27):
Like what would you do if you were if.

Speaker 3 (54:29):
You were no fear? I get, I do a little
bit get that question. I don't like to apply it
to like business or whatever, but like just to get
yourself thinking why not? Why not?

Speaker 4 (54:45):
Why not apply that to business and professional life.

Speaker 3 (54:51):
Because they're well, not just because it's like what where
the message is coming and what the intention behind me
asking myself that is, but because uh, like a little
fear I think is is good and necessary and also.

Speaker 4 (55:10):
Well the book says that too, and it's.

Speaker 3 (55:12):
Making me think good. It's making me it makes me.

Speaker 4 (55:16):
The question makes me feel like.

Speaker 3 (55:19):
That the reason like why I don't have success or
I'm not doing well is just because I'm not thinking
big enough, which is which completely ignores, like I said,
structural issues like which it ignores, like class issues like
there are a lot of people that it is not
easy to move between jobs for ignores disability discrimination, it

(55:41):
ignores so many things.

Speaker 4 (55:45):
Book, but if I repeat the same story five times,
it can only fit in.

Speaker 3 (55:50):
So sure, Sure, but I think I was trying to say, yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
But yeah, here's why someone might have a little fear.
I guess is like I'm this is probably stupid, Like
I feel dumb even saying this, but like your job is, yeah,
there's that fear, uh stupid, But like if your job
is tied to your health care, providing health care for
your family and you maybe you have dependents that are

(56:17):
relying on that healthcare and so like such a stupid
but like.

Speaker 4 (56:23):
That healthcare.

Speaker 1 (56:26):
There though, then I wasn't able to keep that child safe.
I don't know, it's you're right, it's just because I'm here,
I think too small.

Speaker 3 (56:36):
I guess I think too much too much.

Speaker 4 (56:40):
What I'm not a way from it was not you
always have to burn down your life and your pile
of cheese. More So, what I took was if someone
moves your cheese, there is something else out there, like you,
you don't have to be paralyzed by the fear that

(57:04):
your cheese being gone is the end of you ever
having cheese.

Speaker 2 (57:07):
Yeah, it sounds like a message from somebody who was
going to be a doctor and chose not to and
found success business.

Speaker 3 (57:14):
It's toxic positivity, Like it's it's using positivity in a
way that's like overall like negative because you're like it
undermines like what actually people go through essentially, like, oh,
if something horrible happens, like I guess we're talking about

(57:37):
the fucking cheese. Your cheese was taken away, Like there
there's probably I don't I think it's bad. Sure, blame
the victim mentality. I feel like he's essentially saying, like, oh,
people struggling with change, you're just afraid or lazy. But
it ignores like trauma not having the support to like

(57:58):
get through with this, or like like John was saying,
you like maybe now you don't have healthcare, so now
these other issues are now arising because they were tied
to the cheese.

Speaker 2 (58:09):
What if we take this as a very literal metaphor,
and imagine that the food bank you rely on no
longer gives out food one day, I think it would
be reasonable to say why, and perhaps we could visit
the people in charge. Well, that might motivate.

Speaker 3 (58:31):
And get closed down. Yeah what happened? I think I.

Speaker 2 (58:34):
Would vote otherwise. I'll tell you what I do things
that mice couldn't do.

Speaker 3 (58:42):
Well, Yeah, sure, you know.

Speaker 1 (58:45):
I don't like if I'm sensing that the food bank
is like deliveries are slowing down a little bit, probably
I'm gonna keep going and just like see what's up,
Maybe try to talk to somebody, kind of hand bite it.

Speaker 3 (59:01):
Yeah, obsessed, you should be biting. I just think we
all should.

Speaker 1 (59:07):
Be biting the hand. We all should have a lot
of hands as well.

Speaker 3 (59:12):
Get those fingers off one by one. I just really
hated the like ending with Michael being like talking about
like a firing Hammond. I don't know, it's just basically
like it was just so pro capitalism and just like
that concept of oh, you have to just keep chasing,
keep chasing, keep chasing, and it's like okay, slow down,

(59:34):
Like I think it's okay to say, like slow down,
what is this why is this cheese moving? Like? Is
this is this a good system for us to be
living in?

Speaker 2 (59:43):
Like I just I like what I hit on a moment.
I agree that the okay, questioning who moved my cheese
is where men and mice. Men and mice defer and
the fact that if we find out removed it and why,

(01:00:06):
we can do something to get a better right, right,
the mice have to just look elsewhere they have to.
Their brains are bad.

Speaker 4 (01:00:16):
But just as a small counter, Okay, Sometimes in life
there isn't always a satisfying answer that you can tracked
on of like why your cheese was moved? Like maybe
your company had mass layoffs. That's nothing you could do
differently to prove. I mean, unless you were like the

(01:00:37):
CEO maybe, But like if you're among the line of
people that just is like, it's not you personally, right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
You still have to find your cheese, right, Okay, So
this is for those specific business moments, is that one?

Speaker 4 (01:00:53):
But like I think so many times in life that
is true.

Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
Okay, someone breaks up with you, you don't want to
know why.

Speaker 3 (01:01:01):
I feel like the why is important of Like, I mean,
I get you're right that it's not always satisfying. Somebody
could ghost you, you never see them again. Whatever, But
like it still is, You're still gonna need closure in
some way from that situation. You're gonna want it, to
learn a lesson from it. You're not just gonna gonna
like again, I guess scurry away into the next thing,
like you're gonna take You're gonna be more cautious. You're

(01:01:24):
gonna be like why were there layoffs in that job?
Do I want to get another similar job because of that?
The way there was so easily able to throw me aside?

Speaker 1 (01:01:31):
Like do I want to keep working in TV?

Speaker 3 (01:01:34):
Yeah? Why am I doing this to myself? Why? Why
am I doing this?

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
Like all the TVs are moldy, and I need to
investigate further.

Speaker 3 (01:01:44):
I need to find the hand They they're all gone,
they're leaving. They look they seem like they've all left
the United States. There's cheese in the United States.

Speaker 1 (01:01:52):
Yes, had just smash art cheese.

Speaker 3 (01:01:55):
Is this is this real cheese or is it artificial
intelligence cheese?

Speaker 4 (01:01:59):
Exactly?

Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
And why are all the cheeses owned by crafts?

Speaker 4 (01:02:04):
Now?

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
You see all kinds of cheeses. Now just craft has
all the cheeses and they're starting to do pharmacy prescriptions
as well, concerns us. And again, maybe there's someone we
need to send to a guillotine that's.

Speaker 4 (01:02:17):
All insane, yea.

Speaker 3 (01:02:20):
I mean again, I do think the message of like, okay,
you you know, moving we need to all move on
eventually is like simple, simple and sure, but like just
the way it's wrapped up makes it like so much
more toxic. I think, no good book.

Speaker 1 (01:02:35):
Okay, good question though, go.

Speaker 3 (01:02:37):
Ahead, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
I was just gonna say it was frustrating to me
because I feel like I could have written a much
more fun people in amaze business parable like using with
some rules in place of the world like yeah, the

(01:02:59):
fuck is you know? I think we all could have.
I think anyone could have. And so that was frustrating
too to listen to him do a bad job with
an idea that could have been interesting or fun even
you to make them. I want to make them like mice,
make it fun. It could have been funny.

Speaker 3 (01:03:16):
Even they could just be two different types of mice.

Speaker 1 (01:03:18):
They could still they could have all been mice.

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
Mice wore running shoes that some of them ice wore
running shoes. What the fuck was that?

Speaker 1 (01:03:28):
Do you think they had two running shoes or four
by the way, because it's they tied their sneakers around
their neck, so I'm picturing two shoes looped over their neck. Look,
mice have four feet.

Speaker 3 (01:03:40):
It's confusing because we're assuming these are real mice, so
I would say four shoes. But then also, I've never
seen myce sneakers, so I don't know what this world
I know it's.

Speaker 4 (01:03:47):
Really I don't know. I imagine sneakers. They're standing up
on their back legs.

Speaker 1 (01:03:58):
Okay, well that's not how a mouse all that's wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:04:02):
So their nose is now not uh near the ground
picking up the normal sense that would help the mouse.
That's I hate what's the author's name? I hate him?

Speaker 3 (01:04:14):
Spencer.

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
I hate Spencer, hate him.

Speaker 4 (01:04:20):
I do want to Oh sorry, I do really want
to talk about the construction of this book. We've touched
on it, but I really need to lay into it
because I've complimented the book too much.

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
Which infuriating amount infuriating him.

Speaker 3 (01:04:38):
No, I appreciate it. I appreciate. I appreciate it. I
appreciate the appreciate point of view.

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
Bounce off, appreciate it one.

Speaker 4 (01:04:49):
Okay, the book I read, I assume we all had
the same version. It starts with an introduction and the
person doing the introduction is talk about how much they
like the book, and then they explain what the book is,
like detailed, explain. It's like it'll be three parts. We

(01:05:10):
have people there in their the like college reunion, then
you'll have the mouse story. Then you'll have the college
reunion people talking again, and it also tells you like
the content of the book, and then you you get
into the story and you're at part one where it's
the college reunion and they're like, as Sarah touched on

(01:05:30):
very brilliantly in her summary, they're very poorly instiltedly talking
about they're just like saying what the message of the
story is.

Speaker 3 (01:05:41):
So then you get right, then you.

Speaker 4 (01:05:44):
Get the story which is told crazily with the mice
and the people, and then the people of the college reunion.
They resume again.

Speaker 3 (01:05:55):
Then today right.

Speaker 4 (01:05:58):
To like reflect and it's like you just had this
conversation yesterday. They have the same conversation again again explaining
like what the book was and when it meant and
then and then there was an afterward to the book
that once again told the story and what it was about,

(01:06:23):
and all of this is packed into one hour and
twenty nine minutes an audio, Like five times six times
you hear this story?

Speaker 3 (01:06:35):
Could you hear it more?

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
I didn't need the people at college.

Speaker 3 (01:06:42):
I didn't need that. But oh wait, I didn't really
like I forgot at the end. I can't remember Carlos
so what I can't remember which one was like, oh,
I worked for my family business, but it's gone out
of business because the big box store. And then he
was like his takeaway wasn't like anything about like capitalism
or like you know, Walmart moved in and kicked the
little guy out. He was just like it was my fault.

(01:07:03):
I should we should have done something to prepare when
it was like, I don't know if there's anything you
can do to fight Walmart, Like.

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):
Like you takeaway was like the big box store came
in and we just kept trying to operate our store.
It's like, yeah, I don't sorry, that's not.

Speaker 4 (01:07:22):
The only way out of that situation is to you've
got mail it. Yeah, fall in love with mister Walton.

Speaker 3 (01:07:29):
Right, but your business doesn't your business her store is
still get shut down.

Speaker 4 (01:07:33):
Though, Yeah, they incorporate you a little bit.

Speaker 3 (01:07:38):
Yeah, you get to have your little corner of the
big box store. Yeah, sure, you're right.

Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
What he should have done was as soon as the
big box store came into town, shut down your business.

Speaker 3 (01:07:48):
Run.

Speaker 1 (01:07:50):
Yes, go you know, don't know where, but you get
out of here.

Speaker 2 (01:07:54):
Just ship, just ship as you run.

Speaker 3 (01:08:09):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:08:10):
So my big question for you all is are you
sniff scurry him or haw?

Speaker 3 (01:08:17):
Wow? We eat Captain one?

Speaker 1 (01:08:20):
Wet my cheese?

Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
Gang?

Speaker 4 (01:08:25):
I okay, maybe this is why I took so much
from the book.

Speaker 3 (01:08:30):
Okay, yeah, my god.

Speaker 1 (01:08:32):
Do you think of yourself as I think of myself
as Hem?

Speaker 3 (01:08:36):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:08:36):
Of course, of course.

Speaker 4 (01:08:38):
The hero no Hem's the stupid one, the one you
don't want to be.

Speaker 2 (01:08:43):
Okay, the one who's afraid, doesn't he gets brave, but
he gets brave, and he's the main character Sabrina.

Speaker 3 (01:08:51):
Sabrina connect to him because Haim has the main character energy,
and that's what she was connected to.

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
Ham is described as a leggy, yet dusty five seven redhead,
little little number.

Speaker 3 (01:09:08):
That's me.

Speaker 2 (01:09:08):
Five seven is unattractive, So I don't think that would
ever be in a.

Speaker 3 (01:09:12):
Discri five middle leaders seven Wait, middle leaders.

Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
That's how blood is in there. Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (01:09:22):
Okay, so any takers haw, sniff, scurry.

Speaker 3 (01:09:29):
I can't be sniff because I have allergies.

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):
Okay, I'll tell you I'm no sniff.

Speaker 2 (01:09:36):
I guess I'll be sniff, but I don't think it
really suits me.

Speaker 4 (01:09:40):
I don't think it suits you either, but probably do
you guys think I'm also sniff? Do you think I'm
all the characters?

Speaker 3 (01:09:47):
Is that?

Speaker 2 (01:09:47):
No? No, no one's.

Speaker 1 (01:09:48):
Saying that's talking about you.

Speaker 3 (01:09:51):
Moved on from you. That's crazy.

Speaker 5 (01:09:54):
It's just like.

Speaker 1 (01:09:56):
Sarah, I think you're more of a sniff I do
out of me and Clara, I think you're a bit
more of a sniff.

Speaker 3 (01:10:03):
All right, I don't. I don't know whether I feel insulted.
You don't seem to be giving in any sort of
positive spin. So it's not me so obviously, that dumb
fucking mouse that is like fine things? Is it because
I'm constantly sniffing for a new job because I don't

(01:10:26):
have a consistent job out of the four of us.
If so, I understand your argument, and I don't agree
that it's fair.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
About it, Well, I'm a little bit more of a scurry.
Panic sets out. This was the inevitable thing has happened.
I raised make an immediate, urgent decision. It's a bad one.
But I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:10:47):
I was going to be a Hall.

Speaker 3 (01:10:50):
Yeah, I guess you're wait. Wait is Hall? Wait? Haul
is the one that Sabrina wanted to be no.

Speaker 4 (01:11:00):
Room, you know?

Speaker 3 (01:11:02):
And I'm sorry, I got I thought Sabrina was saying
she wanted to.

Speaker 4 (01:11:05):
Be respected as much by.

Speaker 3 (01:11:09):
The way I was said main character energy.

Speaker 4 (01:11:10):
I got ye, But I agree that I'm the main
character kind of regardless of.

Speaker 3 (01:11:14):
What my I don't have him at all. How I
was him?

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
Wait, now, I'm how you.

Speaker 3 (01:11:24):
Are.

Speaker 6 (01:11:24):
Now I take a risk and you throw move to
New York and moved to It was scary, Okay, I
love to throw.

Speaker 3 (01:11:36):
Him to die.

Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
And if.

Speaker 3 (01:11:43):
I feel like it, you were the least him. I'm sorry,
just think.

Speaker 4 (01:11:49):
You No, I don't feel that way. I feel like
I'm I'm afraid of change.

Speaker 2 (01:11:56):
Hmmm.

Speaker 4 (01:11:58):
And at the end of the book, which this is
how much I don't know self awareness I have. At
the end of the book, when they're all chatting amongst
each other or I don't remember which part it was,
but it was like when you ask people do you
think you're afraid of change and everybody's like no, and
then there then they're like, do you think most other

(01:12:20):
people are afraid of change? And they're like yeah, and
then they're like ha.

Speaker 5 (01:12:24):
Ha ha.

Speaker 4 (01:12:26):
Because we don't see it in ourselves, but I see
it in myself. I am afraid of change.

Speaker 1 (01:12:29):
Did you cry at any point reading this book?

Speaker 4 (01:12:32):
I'm on a lot of hormone.

Speaker 3 (01:12:37):
Can't be blamed. Can't be blamed for that, all right.
There have been a lot of like a god satire
parodies to this book. I don't even feel like getting
into it. It's something interesting. Wow, this book.

Speaker 4 (01:12:56):
Fuck.

Speaker 3 (01:12:58):
I'm glad I've never been giving into it. Given this
book at work.

Speaker 4 (01:13:03):
I'm glad no one has ever gifted me this book.

Speaker 1 (01:13:06):
I would be terrified, but remain frozen.

Speaker 3 (01:13:10):
I need, you know what I need to ask. I
need to ask my dad if he ever had to employees,
and if so, I need to have a conversation with him.
I need to have a deep conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:13:22):
That's fun because it'll start off really light, like I
read this club. Did you ever get this to your employees?

Speaker 3 (01:13:29):
I'm gonna be like, you are toxic? You want to go,
which is fair? Yeah, all right, guys, you ready to
that's ready for five star reviews? Do it all right?
Here we go. This one comes from our Chit says

(01:13:49):
change or get run over. A great many people have
recommended this particular one to me. I did not read.
We might be the best species, but sometimes we overprocess
adapting and forecasting. Change lurking around the corner is a
mark of sheer greatness. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Speaker 2 (01:14:07):
It's so frustrating, Like if he's just trying to say
we overthink, I really think a different metaphor would.

Speaker 3 (01:14:14):
Here, and he says verdict. Spencer Johnson hits the bullseye
in a sixty minute book. Wow, it was confusing because
you said he didn't read it, but.

Speaker 2 (01:14:22):
Then reviewed it fifty minutes.

Speaker 3 (01:14:25):
Kat can't believe it took me only about an hour
to finish this book. Wow, this book is truly what
I need finishing it.

Speaker 1 (01:14:33):
Thank you to the author for quotes every time I
say book is a book.

Speaker 3 (01:14:37):
I know they love. Thank you to the author for
such an inspired and motivational story. Maybe it's finally time
I realized it's necessary for me to find my own
cheese and get into that maze out there. Smiley face.

Speaker 2 (01:14:49):
Yeah, we want to get into the maze. I'm not
currently in and I wish I was in amaze. Pissed.

Speaker 3 (01:14:56):
I'm pissed. No, we should be pissed, I says, I'm
in love with this book. It's really really will help
me with my career and personal and personal. I will
read it a long time. I write, sorry, it's not
the best grammar. I read it a long time ago.
But as they say, better late than never. What that
doesn't make sense?

Speaker 4 (01:15:16):
That's better for me to write this review than never?

Speaker 3 (01:15:20):
Oh that much? Okay, okay, okay, all right, sure, but
they're in love with it, all right? So yeah, again,
I can't believe people like this book.

Speaker 4 (01:15:29):
It's I'm thinking about that review. Maybe the last episode
or the person was like, I can't believe I never
wrote a good Reads review on that.

Speaker 3 (01:15:44):
Wow, I want to. It's it's just such a half
thought that I'm glad we experienced it with them, all right,
you guys ready for hate rates?

Speaker 2 (01:15:53):
Yeah, I'll just do it zero to five.

Speaker 3 (01:15:57):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (01:15:57):
I know it was short. I know it was short,
but it was really annoying and it was so short
that I sort of had my expectations of an instant
of it to be instant, not painful. Here we go,
We're done, but we were never done. It still went,
it still lasted, It was still unpleasant. I still had
to be like, I still finish the book like that

(01:16:18):
still happened to me.

Speaker 3 (01:16:20):
Zeroo five Yeah, oh good.

Speaker 1 (01:16:25):
I'm gonna give it a one out of five for
the reason of tricking me into thinking it would be
easier to read than it would because it was so short. Yeah,
like same boat as Clara. It's just rude to be
that short. And then but you're you are still time
and I didn't like that.

Speaker 3 (01:16:40):
This is interesting. I'm also gonna give it a one
out of five. I actually think it gets a point
because it's so short. I didn't have any issues get
fighting that hour and a half or whatever to read
the book. I understood it. But I also like, I
guess part within that point is I do think there's
some kernels of maybe something like try not to be

(01:17:05):
afraid to move on. I don't know. It's not necessarily
a bad thing, but the whole story was so poorly written.
It was entertaining. It was almost like fun because it
was so bad. Yeah, that's to make me think I
should push it to two. I'm gonna keep Oh, I'm
gonna push it to one and a half. I'm gonna
push it to one and a half because I thought
this was fun. I thought it was so bad it
was it got to be a little fun.

Speaker 4 (01:17:26):
I'm gonna go three out of five. One point certainly
for the brevity, one point for I listen. I think
there was something to get out of this if you,
you know, if you just if you look past the
toxicity of the positivity, I think there's value in the positivity.

Speaker 2 (01:17:55):
Whole book.

Speaker 5 (01:17:56):
This is my time.

Speaker 2 (01:17:58):
Well, I just had a question I thought you could
answer in your time. Now I'm vamping.

Speaker 4 (01:18:05):
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, look it it being a
pamphlet that made its way onto the New York Times
Bestseller thus qualifying it as a New York Times book
that we could read. Incredible, truly a feat of genius.
And for the thing that Sarah said at the end there,

(01:18:28):
the truly horrific writing really amped it up and made
it a good time for me.

Speaker 3 (01:18:38):
You can use the word change so many times like
a paragraph. It was like change. We didn't read any
of it I feel I mean, this is partly probably
because we'd all did audiobook and it wasn't easy to
pull quotes, but like, we really probably could have read
half this book in this podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:18:55):
I actually think I could have read the entire book
in the length of this.

Speaker 3 (01:18:58):
Podcast fully and just laughed and laughed as we read.
All Right, I guess it's it's time for little fucker
of the cast.

Speaker 2 (01:19:12):
Look around, Johnny. You were really funny tonight. Everyone was funny. Johnny,
you were like unusual for you. Level. No, I'm trying
not to insult the others. Well, I tell you you
were really funny.

Speaker 1 (01:19:27):
To come and insult to me sort of, but no,
I'm process.

Speaker 2 (01:19:32):
Okay, Yeah, you understand what I'm trying to do. I'm
not trying to I'm trying to see.

Speaker 3 (01:19:37):
That you were feel like you're trying to do something.
It didn't seem like you're.

Speaker 2 (01:19:40):
Trying to try to tell you were funny with Lara
making it seem like the other people weren't funny.

Speaker 3 (01:19:45):
Yes, Clara, Clara, Clara, can you remind me when you
were earlier you made you said something, then you then
I said something, and then instead of continuing, you were
like let me go back to what I said, and
let me say it again. Do you remember what you
were talking about something about It.

Speaker 1 (01:20:01):
Was the metaphor of the food food.

Speaker 3 (01:20:06):
Bank, right, and you were like they should be asking
why the food bank's gone, right, like what happened to
the food bank? And you're like, that's it. And I
just wanted to say I'm voting for you.

Speaker 2 (01:20:19):
Because I thought I was.

Speaker 3 (01:20:22):
Because you were. You came back to say something as
though it was an original point, and I'm pretty sure
I had said multiple times the point that the question
who moved the cheese is a very good question.

Speaker 2 (01:20:33):
Yeah, I thought I was backing you up. I thought
it was explaining it to Sabrina, who.

Speaker 3 (01:20:38):
I'm sticking with my guns. It felt like it felt
like you were coming up with your own original point point.

Speaker 2 (01:20:47):
My intent, I thought. I not my intent I.

Speaker 5 (01:20:55):
Was.

Speaker 2 (01:20:56):
I thought I had a nice way of explaining it
for those two Thick the hit Okay, what you're saying.

Speaker 4 (01:21:02):
I'm gonna take this time to get my vote, which
before this was going to be Clara. But that is
super Clara for calling me stupid, I said, thick in
the head.

Speaker 3 (01:21:16):
Yeah, Well, you also said you.

Speaker 4 (01:21:18):
Were backing her off to explain a point that I
wasn't getting, as though I was just too dumb to
understand the point. It seemed like that was the situation,
but my mind original, the book, my original. Oh and
then also you interrupted my my vote for my hate rate,

(01:21:41):
but the original reason was the hate incident and.

Speaker 1 (01:21:46):
My god.

Speaker 2 (01:21:49):
Refusing to Clara, do you want to change your vote?

Speaker 3 (01:21:53):
I mean I kind of wish I could. I you're
you're gonna get me about that? I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:21:59):
We going to ask through Patreon. We want to do
more polls on Patreon. We can ask who was confused
about the spelling of someone talking about a t shop
called hay t Yeah, and it will prove our point
nicely that no one wants.

Speaker 1 (01:22:13):
Serena. I want to say thank you very much. Reminded
me of the hay Tea incident. My vote is already
patting to Clara. But let's just say it started there
and it went downhill.

Speaker 2 (01:22:30):
This is such bush.

Speaker 3 (01:22:32):
I don't usually vote first, but why now?

Speaker 2 (01:22:35):
This is ridiculous because of the hay Tea incident. Are
you talking about how do you spell it?

Speaker 3 (01:22:43):
You didn't know?

Speaker 4 (01:22:44):
And when you listen to the transfer, why you think
When you first asked the question, you didn't say it
was a T shop. You said it was a jug question,
and you said, have you guys heard of hay tea?
And then I.

Speaker 2 (01:22:57):
Talked about Then I talked, well, you said you.

Speaker 4 (01:23:01):
Could get cream, cheese, foam, But it wasn't. It just
wasn't as clear as you thought it was, and you
kept insisting into this hate moment for it.

Speaker 3 (01:23:14):
Look, I understand, I'm clear, still needs to put her
vote in, but it is I understand, we understand Claire
a little fuck of the gas, but I would.

Speaker 4 (01:23:22):
She is not.

Speaker 3 (01:23:23):
This hate tea thing is very silly. It was very
clear what hay tea what most likely stood for, Like
I don't I still don't under Are you really arguing
that it's h ai t Like what are you right
now saying?

Speaker 4 (01:23:39):
First of all, hey has multiple common spellings, tea has
multiple commons, and haiti is its own word.

Speaker 3 (01:23:52):
That is not. But when you're talking about even if
we're even if you didn't hear the tea shop for
some reason, we're talking about drinks, Okay, the concept spelling
you're talking about, that's easy. Hey, are you honestly are
you're talking about h a y T.

Speaker 4 (01:24:09):
I see, okay, that's just what what am I thinking about?

Speaker 2 (01:24:13):
But then I said, it's just what it's like it is,
hey t, it's normal, like it is normal. Yeah, that
works when you're saying there's no funny app like spelling
of this that.

Speaker 1 (01:24:29):
When you said that, Sam, that's that's a problem.

Speaker 2 (01:24:33):
Maybe it's just that we're so.

Speaker 4 (01:24:34):
Well read that like we Jesus, you know, we just
have a bigger vocabulary.

Speaker 2 (01:24:40):
I don't know my hate rape is I mean, my
little fucker is Sabrina The reasons really frustrating the way
she defended the book really frustrating right now, Yeah, want
to hold her head underwater, not to death, just a
little bit, jolo jo close second, Okay, Sarah's a close third.

Speaker 4 (01:25:02):
You're mad at everyone?

Speaker 1 (01:25:05):
What's your second? Third, fourth? Little fucker? There's no need
to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:25:12):
No, there wasn't a need.

Speaker 3 (01:25:13):
Claire, Claire was voted little fucker. She's calm down, she's
allowed to lash out.

Speaker 1 (01:25:20):
Yeah, I believe Claire.

Speaker 4 (01:25:21):
We're usually not on opposite sides, were usually not, so
this does make prettiest princess hard.

Speaker 3 (01:25:30):
Oh my god, No, we're not doing it. Last time.

Speaker 4 (01:25:32):
The lie Just remember that pumped full of hormones. So
if I don't get it, I'll probably.

Speaker 2 (01:25:39):
Be really sad I'm voting for myself.

Speaker 1 (01:25:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:25:44):
Wow, well I actually almost just cried.

Speaker 2 (01:25:47):
The prettiest princess on this cast.

Speaker 1 (01:25:51):
I guess I remember I used to be like you,
and I used to get vote a little fucker. You know,
I'd lash out, I would come for people later and
like pass and you know, I'll just tell you good luck.

Speaker 3 (01:26:06):
For the next cheese.

Speaker 2 (01:26:07):
Is that the John is trying to bring up when
she was a little funker the one time she's not
voted for it, she brings up how she's.

Speaker 1 (01:26:14):
Saying that's in my passage review obviously, But you know,
I just I see, you see the mistakes are less
mature little fucker might make. And I'm just worn to you,
you know.

Speaker 4 (01:26:28):
Claire on the wall?

Speaker 3 (01:26:30):
Can we please? Are you little princess? Who? No, No,
if it's tied, there's no little princess.

Speaker 4 (01:26:38):
It's it's me And that's the ring because implement the
rules whenever you want, as long as you're still in
the game. And I just did it.

Speaker 3 (01:26:47):
Okay, dude, clarity.

Speaker 2 (01:26:51):
Yourself to me.

Speaker 1 (01:26:52):
So if it's for yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:26:55):
So Claire, it's clear you can now invent a rule
that when Sabrina talks, what it means is opposite.

Speaker 1 (01:27:04):
Doing this.

Speaker 3 (01:27:06):
You didn't say that before.

Speaker 4 (01:27:08):
Now I know we did, really, Clara didn't.

Speaker 3 (01:27:13):
You can't but listen to me. That's the second rule though,
So that doesn't that rule, doesn't that role?

Speaker 2 (01:27:19):
I feel like, yeah, no, no, I feel like we
all knew you couldn't do another one, and that's why
I felt weird about it. So yeah, so that's why
I stayed silent.

Speaker 1 (01:27:31):
Anything.

Speaker 3 (01:27:32):
It wouldn't be right if you abuse that.

Speaker 2 (01:27:35):
If you abuse that.

Speaker 3 (01:27:36):
Gentlemen made up all right, guys, I have no idea. Well,
check us out on Patreon. Become a patron like are
our good friend Patty winjub if you could like that
last name.

Speaker 2 (01:27:49):
By the way, it's got a sound to it.

Speaker 3 (01:27:53):
I think everyone or John and Sabrina know why. I'm
suspicious of it being a fake right, No, Benjamin Benjamin
John Wyndam.

Speaker 1 (01:28:03):
I don't think this is a fake name at all.

Speaker 3 (01:28:06):
I don't know. It's weird because when we were in
college we used to chant the name Benjamin John.

Speaker 4 (01:28:13):
But that's a real person. But is a real person.

Speaker 3 (01:28:17):
But it's still to me. Why did you chance good?
Don't remember at all.

Speaker 4 (01:28:24):
Benjamin John.

Speaker 1 (01:28:25):
It's just a good name, Benjamin John.

Speaker 2 (01:28:27):
Wenjam your friend, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:28:32):
But he was like he generally like you know how
people have.

Speaker 3 (01:28:38):
That.

Speaker 4 (01:28:38):
He was our great friend.

Speaker 1 (01:28:41):
Anyway, all right, guys.

Speaker 3 (01:28:43):
I don't know what book we're doing next? All right,
next episode we have Beautiful Ugly Bye. Who's a bye?
Alice Feeney, Oh, nailed it, Alice Feenie. Oh that's a
good one, spooky.

Speaker 4 (01:29:00):
I don't know, I believe very good.

Speaker 3 (01:29:05):
Next episode we have Jimmy Jimmy Buffett book? Right?

Speaker 4 (01:29:10):
Where is Joe Merchant?

Speaker 3 (01:29:12):
Oh? Joe didn't know he was a writer? Interested to
see that one? Read it, listen to it. I'll problem
Wait does that one have one you could listen to? It?
May be so I don't know that I have to
read the book. Oh god, Well, good luck to us
and to you and uh yeah, that's it for the cast.

(01:29:32):
We'll see you next time. Thank you guys so much
for joining us.

Speaker 5 (01:29:36):
Bye bye.

Speaker 1 (01:30:00):
As

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