Laird Scranton

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Episode Transcript

(00:04):
Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to MeanwhileHere on Earth. This program features in
depth conversations with the leading names inthe subjects of UFOs abductees, the paranormal
panel discussions, and the very bestand brightest of the next generation of writers

(00:24):
and researchers. Meanwhile Here on Earththe show breaking new ground in alternative talk
with your intrepid host, veteran investigativewriter and researcher, Peter Robbins. Good

(00:51):
afternoon, evening or morning, dependingon whether you're watching this as a podcast
or now live. I have totell you I am tired. I am
good tired. Been preparing to departfor Roswell, New Mexico on Wednesday,
and there's always more things to dobefore most trips than we take into account

(01:17):
and in finalizing one's power points.Our guest today is Laird Scranton, a
good friend and a various steam colleague. Lives in Albany and right now,
right before we went on the show, Bill Skywatcher, our producer and he
were commiserating about the stormfronts watching iton radar. Moving toward Laird, we've

(01:44):
already had him kind of drop outone, so it's it's nature if he
disappears off the air and not technology, I think anyway. Laird is the
author of more than a dozen booksand other writings on ancient cousin, homology
and language. These include articles publishedin the University of Chicago's Anthropology News,

(02:07):
Academic Journal, Temple Universities, Encyclopediaof African Religion, and the Encyclopedia Britannica.
Laird is featured in John Anthony West'sMagic Egypt documentary, Magical Egypt Documentary,
and in Carmen Boultier's documentary The PyramidCode. Laird Scranton is a frequent

(02:30):
guest on a wide range of radioand podcast interview shows, including The Red
Eye Show in Europe, Art BellsDesert, Well Past Desert at Midnight,
Coast to Coast Radio, and BeyondBelief with George Nori and Whitley Strieber's Dreamland.
Laird is a frequent presenter at conferenceswhose focus is on ancient knowledge,

(02:53):
and he lists quite a lot ofthem. His books include The Science of
the dogon Sacred Symbols of the dogonCosmological Origins of myth and Symbol, The
Velikovsky Heresies, China's cosmological prehistory,point of Origin, the mystery of Scarabray,

(03:16):
a personal favorite of mine, Seekingthe primordial decoding, Maori cosmology,
Ganesia, the scientific symbology of aHindu Hindu God, Primal Wisdom of the
Ancients, Tracing Orkney's origins and hisnewest which will be discussing today in good
part The Waters of Life subtitle AncientSymbology and Life Energy and layd Scranton.

(03:43):
It is a pleasure to welcome youback to meanwhile here on Earth. Well,
thank you very much. It's mypleasure to be on It's really good
to see you, my friend.A lot of people know that you had
a health crisiss earlier this year.Can we just dispense with folks who were

(04:05):
concerned and let them know briefly whatit was and how you're doing. Sure.
I went in for what was supposedto be non invasive heart surgery to
repair and they order ay ortal valveand there were congenital deformities in my heart
that the surgeons weren't prepared for,and they ended up dropping a device into

(04:26):
my coronary argrey and almost killed me. Sort of all hands on deck situation
to try to get me back,and four days later I was connected to
what one tech described as every lifesupport device they had. So I managed
to make it through that. I'mdoing pretty well at this point. I'm

(04:47):
probably back to eighty percent of thenormal household daily things I had done before
the surgery, trying to gain somestamina back. In terms of walking.
They did an on one of mythigh muscles, and I'm trying to build
up strength in that muscle. Iused to walk four miles of morning.
Now I'm lucky to walk, youknow, three blocks. But I'm getting

(05:11):
there all at all. I can'tTom play and I'm in as I had
the attention and focused. I finishedthis book, The Waters of Life,
which was mostly completed before I wentin the hospital. I've conducted a couple
of classes since I've been out ofthe hospital. Things are going pretty well.
You know. One of the thingsthat's become kind of a theme for
me, and it goes back tochildhood of how people in public life,

(05:34):
whatever they're known for or their accomplishments, how they become the people they are.
And we covered this several years agowhen you were a guest on this
show. But I'd like to reviewit a bit also with a bit of
a focus on your specialty area ofpassion the past, to put it mildly,

(05:58):
and you will bring it alive.And you educate us as you follow
these mysteries and often crack codes andsolve puzzles and put pieces together. That
makes the flow of history more understandable. And let's open to I don't know

(06:18):
a kind of sensationalistic speculation. Socan I ask you? You just click
this box that appeared here how itbegan, and in asking you the question,
begin with a photo here that Ithink we'll register something for you.

(06:40):
Right. This is who this iswhere my mother and I were both born
a little at the time was aboutthree hundred people of silver miners and prostitutes,
basically phil Town and the panhandle ofIdaho silver miners and prostitutes. Well,

(07:02):
yeah, I'm still trying to figureout what my mother used to do.
Down in the minds. It soundslike a mutually supportive situation my siblings.
I grew up primarily in Salem,Oregan and was high school in Portland

(07:23):
and then college at Vassar College inPoughkeepsie. And this is the house that
you lived in Portland, yes,yeah, beautiful. Yeah, this is
Winnifred Asbury. She was a primestudent of U. Grace Hopper, who
was one of the pioneers of computingin country. Grace Hopper helped about the

(07:44):
Coball programming language, and um,this woman was my instructor. She taught
me Fortran and a bunch of otherthings, very much ahead of her time.
This picture was taken in nineteen seventyone. Right. Um. You
know in our specialty areas that wereknown for myself more than not. In

(08:07):
UFO studies yourself, antiquarian research,there are big names and then medium level
names, then the quieter names.John Anthony West has well earned kind of
the title of being one of thebest known and finest writers and researchers in
the field. You met him intwo thousand and three, As I recall,

(08:35):
actually what I had done was Ihad self published a book called Hidden
Meanings that became the Science of theDogan in later years, and I had
was sending targeted emails to people Ithought might have an interest and one of
those emails reached John when he wasin Egypt on tour, and he later
told me he was upset because Ihad told him where he could buy the
book, but he was the sortof guy who had authors lined up down

(08:58):
the block and around the corner tohand free books, and so he said
he'd be damned if he was goingto buy the book. So when he
got back to the United States,he discovered he lived forty five minutes south
to me, and so phoned meone night and we talked for a while
until I finally offered to send hima book. Then he invited me and
my wife down to his home atthat time in Athens, New York,

(09:20):
which is the photo you were showing. He didn't explain to me that he
was going to film the meeting,and that film, that video became episode
eight of his Magical Egypt documentary series. The very first day we ever met,
I was explaining the book to him, and he caught it all on
film. What did your parents do, Laird? I'm trying to again just

(09:45):
get an idea of well, whatdid they do well? My father was
an accountant and a financial advisor andended up as president of Western Farmers Association,
a farmers cooperative in Seattle, thelargest farmers cooperative in the country.
My mother was a school teacher anda homemaker. Yeah, with that many

(10:07):
kids in the family, Yes,homemaking is important. Do you remember as
a kid, what was it thatsparked your earliest interest in early times prehistory?
Well? I was extremely fortunate inthat Salem, Oregon, as a

(10:30):
little city of at the time ofmaybe about fifty thousand people. The way
they solved their problem in elementary schoolof the student who might be bored in
class was they hired a team ofteachers who were cross qualified in many different
fields, and they used them asa shared resource for all the elementary schools,

(10:52):
and they would pull ten kids outof the fourth, fifth and sixth
grade every day for an hour anda half and teach them whatever they wanted
to know. I learned about chemistryand microscopy, and psychology and marine biology
and codes and you name it.We were allowed to pick what we wanted
to study next, and allowed towork together to solve problems or to work

(11:16):
separately. I was a very uniquelearning experience, and I really I credit
most of the skills I have interms of researching the books to those classes.
Amazing would that the rest of thecountry would follow that wonderful model.
What was it though, that madeancient history so compelling for you that that

(11:46):
is where you went with your lifeback in time. Well, that was
really not a major focus for meuntil the early mid nineteen nineties. My
wife Esa had read a book calledUnexplained by Jerome Clark, where every chapter
dealt with a different and solved mystery, and one of those chapters the focus
was on a little African tribe fromMali called the Dogan. And the Dogan

(12:09):
knew some things about astronomy that theyreally shouldn't know, given that they are
our primitive tribe without access to technology. They knew things about the star system
of Sirius and that region of theuniverse. They knew the correct orbital period
of the two stars. They knewthat there was more than one star there,
binary stars. And so I thought, well, anything I learned about

(12:37):
this tribe tribe is going to beinteresting, and so I started pursuing him
whatever information I could find. Itstarted with Robert Temple's book The Serious Mystery,
which is about to ask you thatthat was a book that set me
off. Yes, he had thedisadvantage of writing before there was an English
language translation of the anthropological study ofthe tribe. So I think he had

(12:58):
access to a chapter, or whoI had the benefit of access to the
entire volume. So the Dogan area priestly tribe. They deliberately located themselves
in a remote region eight hours derivedfrom anything we'd consider to be civilized.

(13:20):
Their societal imperative is to preserve originalancient symbols and words. Their their culture
is a kind of umbrella over fouror five different ancient traditions. They have
things in common with Judaism, Buddhism, ancient Egypt, Hinduism, and a
number of ancient traditions. As amatter of fact, their language is unclassifiable

(13:43):
because it includes eighteen subgroupings of wordsfrom language other languages Turkish and Tamil,
the Dravidian languages of the Tamil andso on. So there there's a lot
to learn from the Dugan. Butthey've done such a good job of preserving
what they do, their rituals andtheir symbols and so forth. Their cultural

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practices are predictive of what you'd findhappened in ancient Egypt around three thousand BC.
You know, it's become almost ade facto fall back position for a
lot of people who are generally interestedin what we're talking about, but sometimes

(14:31):
more in the area of popular culturethan real scholarship. And well, obviously
it's aliens, right, they gavethem, you know, super telescopes and
that's how we learned it. Endthe story, and we can put that
on an episode of Aged Aliens.No, that is the easy way out
here. And you were faced witha wonderful challenge. How did they do

(14:58):
that? Do you feel that theyinherited knowledge from the past or somehow they
were able to put two pieces ofground glass together in a tube? And
what's what was your original thoughts andwhat are your thoughts? Now? My
work is comparative work. I startwith a symbolic element from one of the

(15:22):
cultures and a flat statement by thatculture of how they understand it, and
then I test that against what theother cultures say. So the Dogan priests,
oh, okay, we have wehave several traditions that are very much
in sync with each other that downthrough thousands of years. They know they
have claims to be ancient, andthey both managed to keep their traditions straight

(15:46):
in different languages. We have theBuddhists and we have the Dogan in particular
and so the fact that they managedto keep all the symbology straight, and
a modern authority on Dogan culture willbe in agreement with a modern authority on
Buddhism about what particular symbol means ora particular concept means. The dog both

(16:07):
the Buddhists and the Dogan and claimthis as an instructed tradition that in ancient
times somebody who knew a whole lotabout science wasn't talking about theory. They
were talking about fact. Laid allthis out for us in the symbolic system,
using what amount to Young's archetypes torepresent the concepts. And what they

(16:30):
were trying to describe ultimately is howcreational energy works. And when they say
creational energy, they're talking about fourimportant themes. One is how matter forms,
another one is how the universe formed, another one is how biological life
comes about, and the last oneis how consciousness comes about. Now they

(16:56):
say that a single cluster of dynamicsof energy are responsible for all of those
things, and so to emphasize that, they have a symbolic system where a
single progression of symbols simultaneously represent allfour of those themes at the same time.
Every symbol has meaning for each ofthe four themes. Makes the symbolism

(17:19):
very complicated. It's humbling when youthink of the Western mindset as a rule,
and that well they're tribe in Africa, they're primitive, and isn't it
charming that they're still you know,we can still study them, but please,
you know, we've got we've gotthe lock on real knowledge and information

(17:41):
here. Of course, it's notthat way. And one of the things
you told me about the Dogun thatI found fascinating. I'm a generally visually
oriented person, but you said thatthere were concepts that they said didn't talk
about unless they had the drawings thereto refer to. Did I moddel that

(18:06):
or what? I just found itreally unique. Most people will talk about
anything, you know, without anykind of shade. Yes. Well,
as I was first working with theinformation, I realized that, okay,
the Dogan preests are flatly saying,look, our symbolism describes how matter forms.
And they start with a concept thatis indistinguishable from the concept of an

(18:30):
atom. Our concept of an atom, which and they they understand that that
everything material is made from the repeat, you know, the combination in repetition
of atoms of the same type.They understand the concept of protons and electrons
making up the atom, and theyinclude a drawing that it is incredibly like

(18:56):
an electron microscope image of acron orbitalfor an atom to support the concept of
their electrons and protons. So Ithought, this looks scientific to me.
Starting from here, starting from thetopmost elements here, what are the chances
that the whole descending structure that they'retrying to represent could be scientific? And

(19:21):
so I started educating myself, youknow, with Brian Green and Stephen Hawking's
popularizing books on physics, and discoveredthat in certain cases you could take an
entire paragraph and diagram of Stephen Hawkingsand substitute the dogun description and the dogun
drawing, and you wouldn't change Hawking'sbook. Remarkable. Remarkable is I became

(19:47):
very very early convinced that this wasscience. Now, the book that we're
about to discuss, the Waters ofLife, is getting to the bottom of
the structures. It's actually my bookis actually a follow on a previous book
called Ama and the Spark of theUniverse, and this is getting down to
the brass roots of what the Doganare talking about and what they're trying to

(20:07):
represent In the end, what they'redoing is they believe that creational energy rests
on a handful of dynamics of energythat repeat on all scales. It doesn't
matter what level you look at themon. If you go to the lowest
dimensional view of them, you getthe simplest understanding of how they work.

(20:32):
But if you go to higher dimensionalviews, if you're looking at, say,
how stars form, you get alot more nuances of how the dynamics
work. Great, Yeah, applyingnothing but critical thinking and deductive reasoning.
Is there any other conclusion a reasonableperson can reach about this inherited knowledge?

(21:00):
I'll characterize it as just that?Or is it possible that somehow, without
technology, without you know, anykind of Western assistance, that the level
of Could it be a coincidence thatthey somehow thought about this thing called Adams

(21:22):
not a concept that most of usthink of. You know, we didn't
really start to appreciate it until muchmore recently in our Western evolution. Or
I mean, how else could thisknowledge have come to them? And when
you kind of pull back and lookat the big picture, does it seem

(21:45):
to you, well, you know, like when you discuss the Orkney Islands
and the Egyptian influence. No matterhow it may sound to somebody who is
not educated, are knowledgeable about thehistory of this area and these cultures meant

(22:06):
that we have any other solution oranswer to this question other than they knew
things that they shouldn't know and wedon't know how they got them or do
you see. I'll give you acouple of ways of thinking about that.
First of all, the science teachersthat who taught me, one of the

(22:30):
principles they taught me was that thereis such a thing as everyday coincidence.
Yes, but when you're researching questionslike these, when you bump up against
the third coincidence, it's time toconsider whether something beyond coincidences at work.
That you're allowed to gimme coincidences toexplain things, but beyond that, it's

(22:53):
not no longer credible if you tryto say the third piece of it is
now also coincidental. Good way,tokay. The next thing is that because
it's a comparative study, it's notjust one culture saying, oh, by

(23:15):
the way, this thing represents thisthing which might be coincidental. We then
compared to half a dozen other cultures, and we look at their language,
and we look at these symbols,and we look at their myths and so
on. We have numbers of differentways of confirming that the second culture saw
things the same way the first culturedid, and now we have cross confirmation.

(23:36):
One of the examples I use iswe know that a four year old's
testimony is inherently unreliable, So ifa four year old tells us something,
we can't count on it being actual, objective truth. But imagine we had
a room full of four year oldswhose teacher was abducted in front of them.

(23:56):
Now, if each of those fouryear olds independently is telling us that
the abductor was a tall, thinman with red hair and beard and mustache,
that rises to the level of corroboratingtestimony, And for my money,
the police should be out looking forthat suspect as described by the four year
old. So that's what happens withthese cultures, is when you have many

(24:22):
of them saying the same thing inthe same way and documenting it the same
ways, in the same ways,with the same myths and so forth,
it rises to the level of corroboratedtestimony. We can take it a lot
more seriously than if a single culturedid it. One of probably the biggest
threat to the work I do,is what I call wishful interpretation. It's

(24:42):
chasing off after unicorns. So ifthe interpretation begins with me, I've got
nothing, it's the interpretation. It'sgot to begin with something objective on the
part of one of the ancient cultures. Some ancient authority has to have seen
things in particular way for it tobe valid, and my job is to
understand what they're saying and then crossconfirm it or deny it with the other

(25:06):
cultures. Wow, going kind ofanti chronologically, I'd like to get more
into your most recent book first beforewe kind of work our way back to
some degree. And let me begin, if I might, just by reading
the brief liner notes on the backof your new book. In keeping with

(25:30):
a range of classic ancient symbolic traditions, the cosmology of the modern day Dogon
tribe of Mali describes how our materialuniverse comes to be evoked through a fairly
simple set of dynamic energies. TheDogon priests say that these same energies energetics

(25:52):
also foster and support the functions ofbiological life. Moreover, they insist that
ordinary, everyday water, with itsfamiliar cycles and forms, presents us with
a quintessential pattern for understanding how thesecreative, these creational energies work. In

(26:15):
writing books, you know, there'san aspect for the writer. Like an
artist. You have tools, youhave materials. You sometimes have a plan,
and other times things take you ina direction you didn't intend to go.
After dealing with this question and yourmethodology of confirming and in a way

(26:42):
linking seemingly different cultures. Did theidea for this book begin with just taking
that understanding of symbology and going backto the dogan who you started with?
Or somehow did it begin with water? How did this book come into your

(27:06):
mind with these two factors central tothe story you're telling. Actually, this
piece of it began because I understoodabout the four creational themes, and one
of those creational themes is how biologicallife forms. And I had purchased and

(27:27):
was trying to understand some fairly difficultreference books by a biologist named may one
Ho. She wrote the books tobe for a lay person, but a
lot of it goes over the headof your average lay person. She's describing
about many aspects of how living beingsget their energy, and those books focused

(27:53):
on water, and so that broughtme back around to the ancient concepts of
water. The French anthropologist who studiedthe Dogan for thirty years wrote a diary
of his own initiation into the Dogantradition, and he was French. Okay,
he entitled the book God of Waterin French. Emphasize that we're talking

(28:15):
about water in the end. Okay, We're all familiar with various insightful and
metaphors of the ancient mythologies about thesleeping goddess who who lies just below the
surface of the waters, who opensher eyes and perceives the light. This
is the subject of the Book ofGenesis, and we say, wow,

(28:37):
that's really an insightful way to tryto represent what happens. As we learn
more and more about the Dogan tradition, we come to see that those metaphors
are actually objective descriptions of what reallyhappens with the energies. That these are
not metaphors. Are these are someonesetting right out in plain view for us
what actually happened, and it's upto us to try to sort out how

(29:02):
that is so, As it turnsout, the dynamics of the various structures
coming up from the very bottom ofthe most primordial level of energy up to
the level of binary stars, thestructures that form all share important dynamics that

(29:23):
are found in water, and thatif you want to understand the energy is
at any particular level, making adirect comparison to water is a huge help.
I was trying to sort out whathappens at the interface between energy and
matter, and discovered that the bestway to get at that was to study

(29:44):
what happens at the interface between theman ocean and air. That the dynamics
at the surface of water are thesame as the dynamics of energy at that
boundary. Let's well, first ofall, I know that you could write
simply for other scholars, and youknow, talk among yourselves, so to

(30:07):
say, But you write to thegreatest degree possible for the rest of us.
A lot of the concepts of challenging, especially somebody like me, a
classic dyslexic, and I look atnumbers or formulas and my eyes start to
spin. But you lay it outin a manner that I can get and

(30:32):
appreciate and always keep it interesting inthat I want to know what's going to
happen on the next page. Andthat when you're dealing with material that for
some people they might consider dry orto you know, intellectual over their heads,
or you've got to have studied anthropology, or it's not the case.

(30:56):
And this new book more than ever. And you sent me a series of
five drawings that are reference points inthe book, and I think this is
a good time to start to lookat them and get an idea of what
you're talking about. In the termsthe dogun layout three images. What are

(31:17):
we looking at here? Okay?The Dogan are describing a dynamic of energy
in the universe that repeats on allscales at all sorts of levels. The
dynamic moves from Okay, we havetwo energies we're talking about. These are
defined in a philosophy called Samkia inIndia. But the two energies, as

(31:40):
the Dogan describe them, are clearlymagnetism and electricity, and scientifically they would
have to be. So what theDogan are doing is they they represent that
the two the starting and ending pointsof this dynamic of energy that recur.
They treat as doorways door panels,that you have an an entry place at

(32:05):
both ends of the dynamic. Whatwe're essentially doing is we're moving from a
state where electricity is unresisted and magnetismis dormant. That's one starting point.
The other starting point or the endingpoint is the reverse of that, where
magnetic flux is unresisted and electrical flowis dormant. And to understand that these

(32:34):
two top illustrations are basically schematics thatwere originally presented carved into doors. Yes
they are. They're carved into thedoor two door panels of the house of
the highest Dogan Priest who's called theArrow Priest. On the left side,
we have magnetism in a perfectly orderedstate, which is agrees without science diagrams

(32:59):
magnetism a perfectly or a state withall the north poles had to aim the
same direction of the south poles aimedthe same direction. That is characteristic of
superconductivity. As a matter of fact, science hasn't sorted out yet, but
the Dogan are saying that the wayyou get a superconductor is you align the
magnetism. That's all you have todo. Make sure that it's all lined

(33:21):
up the same way, and youautomatically get either the superconductive state or you
get the other state, which iscalled superinsulating. And so when we're talking
about the formation of matter. Okay, back to our picture again. The
second image on the right is howis really starting to close in on you,

(33:45):
isn't it? It is a littlebit Okay, keep going, Okay.
The right hand picture illustrates how electricitymoves when it's unresisted, and the
picture below is how science represents thatconcept. You can see the Dogan guide
exactly right is intuitively talking about magnetismelectricity. It could hardly be anything else.

(34:09):
Yeah, fabulous, And we goon to the next illustration. Here,
Dogan is starting by trying to familiarizeus with the attributes of magnetism and
electricity. Magnetism moves in a circularway, and electricity moves linearly. These

(34:30):
the top two images are what theDogan called the two guide signs. The
Dogan read them from right to leftlike Hebrew, and the guide signs.
Magnetism's rule is to guide how electricitymoves. The picture on bottom illustrates,
from a scientific point of view,exactly that how magnetism induces electricity to extend

(34:53):
and you can see you have verysimilar shapes being represented. The Dougan know
what they're talking about in terms ofthe dynamics of energy. Extraordinary. Moving
on to the no, that's arepetition. Here we go. Okay,

(35:15):
Now, in the nineteen twenties therewas an aristocrat in France who was also
a physicist. His name was Louisde Broglie. He was a close associate
eventually of Albert Einstein and of Schroedinger, and de Broglie did a bunch of
work on the hydrogen atom, andhe discovered and calculated that, okay,

(35:40):
we know in the hydrogen atom thatyou have a pro one proton and one
electron, and that electron can sitin in a number of different orbits around
the proton, and it moves outat certain increments from the proton for some
of those orbits. De Broglie figuredout that those orbits correspond to the points

(36:02):
of resonance for the energy. Thispoint of resonance, if you think of
a musical scale, the note thatsounds right, you know on the piano
you hear hear pure notes. Thoseare the resonance points of the sound.
And in other cultures like Chinese,they sometimes pluck out notes that sort of

(36:22):
said halfway between what we consider tobe notes. But the points of resonance
are what constitute our musical scale.Rob Lee figured out that the reason that
energy is absorbed into an atom andemitted from an atom in quanta in units
is because those units are the resonanceunits. That's the point where resistance is

(36:46):
leased and the energy has the easiesttime moving from a captive situation to a
free situation. So what we're lookingat in the lowest illustration the word wren
and so we'll get to that ina minute. And in the top illustrations,
Okay, you see the almond shapeat top. Yeah, that's what

(37:07):
de Broglie describes as the cyclical presenceof magnetism for the electron as it orbits
a hydrogen atoms that if you weredrawing a picture of you, if you're
graphing the math of it, that'sthe shape you get. And there's a
reason there's geometry to the hydrogen atomthat produces that shape. The zig zag

(37:29):
shape that's below it is the samething. It's a cyclical presence of magnetism
for the components of the proton nowI know that those two shapes happen to
be important ancient Egyptian glyph shapes.So as soon as I saw it,
okay, this article that de Brogliwrote in nineteen twenty formed the foundation of
Schroedinger's quantum theory. But de Brogli'sarticle got disappeared for a century. For

(37:54):
a century, it had not evenbeen translated into the English language, and
Schrodinger hardly mentioned it. I thinkthere's one paper in the hundred years that
another French modern French physicist says mentionedthe concept of residence the way that the
BROGUELI interpreted it. But I knowthat those two shapes are important Egyptian glyph

(38:17):
shapes, So I started looking atancient Egyptian glyphs that were written with them
and turned upwards, like the onebottom which Budge pronounced Budget is the compiler
of the Dogan dictionary. He interpretsthe word to be pronounced grin, But
that's open to question because certain Egyptianglyphs were not pronounced, and so people,

(38:40):
the linguists have to guess what thevowel sounds were, and they don't
always get it right. Now,the Dogan language is built on syllables that
work like symbols. These are syllablesthat represent basic concepts of science, and
they build the They mix and matchthe syllables together to produce more complicated words

(39:04):
and more complicated concepts. So aperson like me, simply by hearing the
pronunciation of a Dogan word can guessfairly correctly what the meaning of the word
must be, because those syllables havemeaning to each other. And I know
that this word ran that Budge documentsbased on correct cosmological symbolish symbolism, it

(39:27):
really should be rain. Nah Rayis an Egyptian word that refers to energy,
and nah is a term that acrossvarious cultures refers to the feminine non
material This is non materiality, andso Budge interprets this word as the concept
expressing the concept of the divine name. It reads energy of the feminine material,

(39:51):
and we find it literally expressed inthe resonant aspect of a hydrogen atom.
That's the place where it's easiest forsomeone like to understand how it works
and what it represents and why it'simportant. It's the concept of hidden energy.
In ancient cultures, when they talkabout a hidden God or hidden energy.
This is what they're talking about now. Samka, which is the philosophy

(40:16):
that sort of first puts us alldown in writing in India and around one
hundred BC. Samka is a companionto yoga. Saka is the cosmological side
of it and yoga is the personalizedenergy side of it. And Samki says
that we have two universes, Universe'sform in pairs, and there's a cyclo

(40:38):
of energy between the universes that isas vital to life in the universes as
the natural water cycle we get backto water again, is to life on
our planet. That energy scrolls fromthe non material side to the material side,
and it's because of that scrolling energythat we have material forms like atoms,

(41:00):
and we would have nothing if itweren't for that cycle of energy.
So these graphs of de Broglies describehow those two energies relate to one another.
We can think of it another way, but by another metaphor. One
of the things that confused me aboutthe ancient symbolism is that the ancient Egyptian

(41:23):
hieroglyphic language has two different words forthe concept of time. I thought,
why do you need two words fortime. Well, the reason you need
two words for time is because thosedynamics of energy are produced by the interactions
of the proton, which is likea tiny magnet with the north and the
south pole, and the electron movingcircularly around that proton, and you get

(41:46):
some complicated resonances happening there. Oneof those resonances is a broad oscillation,
and it compares to how the sunmoves from the equinox to the soul system
back to the equinox again. It'sat three stage oscillation. And the other
resonance is like linear time. Everyonecompares to how the dynamic of sunrise to

(42:13):
sunset. There's an image I didn'tsend you that. It's at the top
of my Facebook page. It showsum It's a picture of Orkney Island in
northern Scotland, and it shows thesun setting at the equinox. It's setting
squarely between two mountains that are acrossa body of water from where some standing

(42:38):
stone circle sat. That geography replicatesthose two modes of time. By looking
at the sun watching the sun setbehind those mountains, you witness the dynamic
of how sunrise to sunset interacts withthe oscillating dynamic of soulsus, the equinox

(43:02):
to soulsis that was deliberate. OrkneyIsland at thirty two was a place where
these cosmological concepts were being taught.From that point forward, many other cultures
deliberately established their important sites in viewof two mountains where the sun either rose
or a set between the two mountains. If you go to Abydos in Egypt,

(43:28):
there's a cemetery where all the allthe dignitaries of the first two dynasties
of Egypt were buried. That's indirect view of a similar gap between two
mountains. In fact, the nameAbydos, according to Omsetti, originally was
Abdu, which meant the desired mountain. Hinduism says it was commonplace for Hindu

(43:52):
sites to be located in view ofthose kinds of mountains in earlier times before
Orkney. What they didn't use twomountains to accomplish this. They used a
single mountain that looked like an elephantto accomplish it. If you go to
Elephant in Island at four thousand BC, the temple there was placed in view
of a single mountain that looks likea reclining elephant. I have emails from

(44:15):
people who live in elephant In rightnow who say, you can tell that
summer's almost here because of where thesun setting behind the mountain. Of course,
the mountain provided a natural agricultural calendarfor the people who live there who
are trying to farm the land.They knew when to plant and when to
harvest their crops based on where thesun was. I'm brilliant. You sent

(44:39):
one more illustration, and a mostintriguing one. Ganesha, of course,
the very identifiable Hindu god. Andnow that I'm looking at it this depiction,
in this pose, of course,my eye goes right up to A
and B tell us about what we'reseeing here. Okay, One of the

(45:01):
other photos I think I sent,but it may not have come through,
shows a kind of spiral, theway that resonance is carried forward in the
universe. It's it's based on spinningenergy that produces seven rays of a star

(45:23):
of increasing length. As the dogand draw on the left, you can
see. The reason you get thoserays is because as energy spins, Einstein
tells us that it slows the paceof time down. What that means is,
if we had an objective observer sendingoutside of everything. Who could measure

(45:44):
how long a moment took. Thatthe objective duration of a moment gets longer.
And so when energy spins to thedogun it's causing time to slow down
the way Einstein says it does,and it's producing moments that take longer and

(46:07):
longer and longer and longer. Andin the span of that longer moment,
light is able to extend further outwardthan I did before. And so our
producers rays that are of increasing length. If we draw a spiral around the
endpoints of the rays of light inthe left picture, we got a Fibonacci

(46:27):
spiral. And the reason I've seemeddistracted is I am chasing down that image,
which you're absolutely right, I didnot remember to load in. And
let me see if I can bringit up right now. It is and
Bingo's cool. On bottom, youhave how science represents the way that resonance

(46:59):
is carry forward among structures that arein the same phase with each other.
At top is what the how theway the Dogan draft It's that same seven
rays of a star we were talkingabout. The Dogan refer to this as
the egg of the world. Hinduismrefers to it as the world spiral.
Yes, Now, one of thetitles in India of Ganesha the elephant god,

(47:22):
is Ghanapati. And if we interpretGhanapati in terms of Sanskrit, they
decide that the word means lord ofthe Ghanas, which is pretty unspecific.
But if instead we choose to interpretit in terms of Dogan fenetics, that
means world spiral that Ganesha Ganesha symbolismis to this same world spiral. Now

(47:47):
we catch the Dogan in the actof anthropomorphizing their figure on the right hand
side of this, and they anthropomorphizeit in two ways. One way is
they consider the top two rays tobe ahead. They consider the next two
lower rays to be two arms.They consider the next two legs raised to

(48:09):
be leg two legs, and theyconsider them, let's see the seventh one,
to be a single tusk. Now, the other way that the anthropomorphis
it is they use the top tworays to represent a head and the next

(48:30):
four rays to be four arms,and then the last ray to be a
single leg on which Ganesha dances.And those are the two classic poses that
Ganesha is positioned in um. Ihave an article written by Phyllis Granoff from
Yale University. She translated an obscuresand script text whose focus is on the

(48:58):
symbolism of Ganesha talks all about theformation of this this spiral of matter.
She's looking for some culture that hashas a pattern that the descriptions fit and
the Dogan do that. The Dogansystem constitutes that Godessa's symbolism is entirely about
the dynamics of energy that formed thatspiral. Did you think it unusual that

(49:23):
this African tribe in Mali had focusedin on an archetypical Hindu deity or it's
just a matter of course because yousee these things intersecting in your work,
going back in many cultures. Well, you have to trace back to the
to where this started. From mypoint of view, this starts in the

(49:45):
era of go Beckley Tepe around ninethousand BC. The Dogan information corresponds to
Egyptian culture around three thousand BC,so there's six thousand years difference in between.
The Dogan actually preserve a carved altarstone where the carvings on the stone
are indistinguishable from what we see atgo Beckley Teppe. The same type of

(50:07):
flat animal figures carved in the sameway the Dogan preserve were Turkish words in
their language and Dravidian words. Wecan almost trace based on Dogan language,
what the path of transmission of thetradition had to be for them to have
picked up all the different languages theypicked up. So one of the paths

(50:29):
of transmission is south eastward from Turkeyand that passes into India. So the
traditions of India preserve certain elements ofinstruction that was first given at nine thousand
BC, and other cultures preserve otheraspects of that same instruction. In fact,

(50:49):
there are naming conventions for various ancienttribes who benefited from that instruction,
and the names of the tribes sortof declare us. How can I say
a specialization subject like them? Whatdid you major in in college? There
is you get group called the Knackor the Naxie, who were from the

(51:15):
Tibetan borderland. This is a tribal, a priestly group that's sent out to
a remote side, the same waythe Dogan apparently were. Um Nah is
a cosmological syllable that refers to thenometer of feminine as in Rainaw that we
were talking about the key or asea. Portion of their name is an

(51:36):
Egyptian word sakai that means to celebratethe dogan have an annual, a fifty
year celebration of the stars of seriousthey called the ciggy that comes from that
same word sakai. So the nameof the Knachi or the Naxie flat flatly
says, celebrates the feminine. Nomaterial, that's there specialty. Now.

(51:58):
One of the huge benefits I havegoing for me and my research is that
prior to about five hundred BC,every ancient word, every ancient cosmological word,
explained its own meaning. To us, it defined It's on me.

(52:21):
This is the storm catching up rightnow. We've been hearing some rumbling in
the background and we knew this waspossible. In fact, again, before
the show began, Bill Skywatcher,producer and Lader, and I were watching
the moment by moment shift of thestorm that is right now all over the

(52:44):
place in the Albany area. Obviouslyyou can understand why Laird's work absolutely fascinates
me. And here he is backagain in a frozen form with Bill,
our producer, and Bill you wereyou produced the show two years ago when

(53:12):
Laird was first on. You producea lot of shows, but there aren't
a lot of people like him.He's brilliant, he is, and you
know, the words come to mind, like mind expanding. We usually think
of it in terms of psychedelics andthe like, but it's putting pieces together,
and it's one of the reasons whyI am such a fan of his.

(53:37):
We all have our specialty areas.Some of us know a fairly large
amount about a few things, butwe know very little about a lot of
things. We know bits and pieces, and you can almost see the way
his mind is working. And likea lot of great authors, if you

(53:59):
start to read his books and you'reable read them in the order that they
were written, because you just can'tgo wrong with that. It's like,
you know, following a great detectivenovel series, you can read them out
of sequence and it's just fine.And sometimes we discover a book and it's
the one that brings us into somebody'swork, and you know, there we

(54:22):
go from there and back again.I was talking about language that prior to
a certain date, prior to fivehundred BC. Ancient cosmological words all tell
us, they all define their ownmeanings, in one way or another.
For the dogan. A syllable carrymeaning, and so if you substitute concept

(54:44):
for syllables, you can interpret whatthe word was meant to mean. In
hieroglyphic language. It was exactly thesame way that you substitute concepts for glyphs,
and you produce a sentence that definesthe meaning of the word they're writing.
So I don't even have to guesswhat the terminology means. You know,
the linguists are trying to figure outout where did this come from and
what does it probably mean. Theform of the word itself flatly tells us

(55:07):
that we don't have to guess it. It's right there. Extraordinary, you
know. Um, this is aperfect time to take a break. In
fact, it's d rigor. Wewill see you in four minutes, weather
willing. And this is Peter Robbinswith my special guest Laird Scranton. The

(55:28):
show is meanwhile here on Earth andwe will be back in four okay,

(55:49):
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(56:28):
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(57:07):
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(57:30):
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(57:51):
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(58:13):
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(58:36):
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(59:34):
O I Can'm glad that you gottaturn out mm hm, and we're back.

(01:00:35):
Peter has lost power as well,okay, he amut he and putain.
You know what we're going through rightnow. I'm dealing with it,
these horrible storms, okay, andthey're moving to you. But if you
would like to continue where you leftoff the hieroglyphic in the translation with the

(01:00:57):
dogan, sure, absolutely, okay, so let me know when we're alive
and I'll start okay, great,Well, with hieroglyphic language, we have
direct comparability between ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs andancient Chinese hieroglyphs. We have certain words
that were formulated exactly the same wayin both languages originally. So this is

(01:01:19):
a system that was taught to manydifferent cultures, and those languages did not
pop up independently of each other.All right, I gotta I want to
ask you a question. So wouldthis language be one of the first languages
that is known in modern let's justcall it modern human history. I would
say probably not, because this istailored to express cosmological concepts. So,

(01:01:49):
for example, the dogan syllables andthe glyphs of the Egyptian hieroglyphic language.
Okay. The trick for a scribein Egypt was when he wanted to write
a word, he had four thousandglyphs to choose from. He needed to
produce a word that was pronounced acertain way because he had to agree with
the spoken language, but he alsohad to pick a set of glyphs that

(01:02:10):
expressed the idea who was trying toget across and combine them together, you
know, there are only about fortyphonetic values being expressed in any written language,
So there's no good reason why theEgyptians neither pour a thousand glyphs.
But that gave him a choice ofone hundred different glyphs that were pronounced about
the same way to pick from tospell his word. Interesting. So I

(01:02:36):
mean, I'm fascinated with the dogonthe tribe and the understanding of astronomy great.
I found that to be fascinating thatthey were able to tell which constellations
and saw systems that it took modernastronomists to figure out years later that what

(01:02:59):
they were the depicting was accurate.And now the reason that there's focus on
certain constellations and stars is because thosebodies illustrate right in front of our eyes
certain dynamics of energy that Dovan aretrying to help us understand that the serious
stars, there are relationships among thosestars that are important for our understanding of

(01:03:23):
how the energy works. And beforewe're done here tonight, I'll try to
try to explain how that works,how it is that the serious star system
connects to these same energies that areproducing matter. As a matter of fact,
I think that's where I'm going togo next with this. Okay,

(01:03:45):
okay. We have a continuum ofenergy that begins with magnetism dormant. Magnetim
is sleeping, and it ends withelectricity dormant. The first stage of that
is called superconductivity. And in asuperconduct conductive setting, the electricity forms a

(01:04:08):
circuit that is perpetual. It'll goon forever without any additional energy. It'll
go on endlessly. Now, anydisruption to that circuit, either from the
outside or just random disruptions of thecircuit that happen produces a spark. And
that spark is the equivalent of electron, and it evokes two magnetic pools,

(01:04:31):
a north and south magnetic pool.And now you have a unit of three
monopoles that become the basic unit ofenergy, is called a proton electron pair.
And those monopoles emerge in that domainthat we looked at earlier, where
all the magnets are lined up thesame way. We know that magnetism.
When the magnets are all lined upthe same way, pulled together, well,

(01:04:57):
these we'll end up flopping over theother direction. And so now they're
here allowed for the rest of theday, this storm is really acting up
on his end as well. Hopefullywe'll get him back. Just a message
from Peter. Peter's power is stillout. I just got a message from

(01:05:20):
Peter Robbins. This is this isthe way it is folks live, and
he's not sure what his power isgoing to be restored. He's hoping to
come back soon. So hopefully ladwill be coming back with us shortly as
well. But I've always been interestedin the dog On tribe and the fascination

(01:05:42):
of how they were way ahead oftheir time and isolated and yet new a
lot about astronomy and other areas ofscientific interest. But hopefully we just lost
Laird, So hopefully we'll get andLaird back. But in the meantime,
I'm going to share on the screena couple of his books. And I

(01:06:08):
don't know if Peter did this earlier, but I'm going to put them in
the order that Peter had them here, because that's how efficient Peter usually is.
The science of the Dogon decoding theAfrican mystery tradition. Laird has a
lot of incredible works, and tounderstand it, I would say you would

(01:06:29):
have to look at this in asequence of these books. That's how he
wrote them. That was the intention. So sacred symbols of the dogon the
Key to advanced science, and theancient Egyptian hieroglyphs. Moving on to the
next one, China's cosmological prehistory,the sophisticated science encoded in civilizations earliest symbols.

(01:06:55):
So you could see where his workis on the early on the early
works of language symbolism. I'm justgonna keep rolling through here. Okay,
I'm going through your books. Okay, So, so I was talking about
the proton electron pair. Yes,when the electron orbits the proton and a

(01:07:15):
hydrogen natom, it can take differentpositions, but the smallest orbit it connects
up with the proton. It createswhat's called what we think of as a
neutron. There's no such thing asa neutron. That was one of the
confusions for me with the Dobin systemis they talk about electrons, they talk
about protons. They never talked abouta neutron, because a neutron is a
form of a hydrogen atom. It'sa proton electron pair. But Lard,

(01:07:42):
how would they know the science behindit? Well, they say they know
it because their teachers who already understoodthat thoroughly taught them, and the Buddhists
agree. So since we have corroboratingtestimony, I go with the idea that
that's what happened. But the Doguncarry it one step further than the Buddhists
do. The Buddhists say they gotit from a non human source. The

(01:08:06):
Dogans say, not only was itnon human, it was also originally non
material. I'll try to explain whyhow that happens. Okay, when we
were people who are familiar with deepsea deep ocean water realize that in the
very deepest parts of the ocean,the water self differentiates into biological zones,

(01:08:30):
and different kinds of plants and animalslive in different zones depending on how much
sunlight they need, what temperature ofwater they like, how much water pressure
they like, and things like that, and so the forms that are living
on the bottom of the ocean arevery different than the ones that are living
at the top. Well, theDogans say that energy does the same thing,

(01:08:51):
and it produces fourteen domains that aredifferentiated by a slowing pace of time,
and the boundary between these fourteen domainsare the boundaries are points of resonance
like musical notes on the musical scale. Are you talking about frequency vibration?
Yeah, Well, if you lookat the electromagnetic scale, you see that

(01:09:13):
energy that began it with very shortwavelengths at the time of the Big Bang.
We now measure as microwaves have,which have very long wavelengths. The
electromagnetic spectrum documents the slowing of thepace of time. For us, we
also know that the pace of timeis slowing because the further out into space
we look, the faster things arehappening. They're now at a point where

(01:09:34):
they can't figure out how entire galaxiesformed as quickly as they did. They
don't realize it's because back then timeran a lot more quickly than it does
now, and that's reflected in thefrequency of the energy. Wow. So
the Dobner is saying that at certainpoints in the cycle, when the energy

(01:09:56):
is scrolling, the mass between ourdomain of energy and the next domain over
from us equalizes. Like sand inan hourglass. You start with all the
sand in the top of the hourglassand it filters down into the bottom,
but at a certain point you havethe equal amount of sand in both globes.
When that happens with the energy,it becomes possible to cross over between

(01:10:18):
domains the same way you use anairlock to get out of a sub underwater,
or we get out of a spaceship. In space, you equalize the
pressure and then you're able to getout safely. So are you also talking
about an overlap in time and spaceIf you're talking about you're talking about differences
in time frame that at certain pointsin the cycle equalize with each other.

(01:10:39):
And so now a creature that actuallylives in the next domain over from ours
is able to cross the way awhale can cross all the zones in the
ocean. And so when it comesto talking about UFOs and talking about the
mythical teachers of the Dogan, whatthey're talking about is an intelligence that's not
human that originally existed in the nextdomain over from ours energetically, and then

(01:11:04):
at thirty two, the middle ofthe energetic cycle, they were able to
cross into ours. This is whatall the tales about fairies are about.
You remember, there were eras whereif you went back to the same site
a year later from when they originallysaw fairies dancing in a circle, they
could see the same fairies still dancing. But is that residual or is that

(01:11:28):
an actual? That's an actual,but the year represents a difference in time
frame between the two. The guywho wrote the story of RiPP Band Winkle
Washington Irving, his father was fromOrkney. This is a story about crossover
into a Faerry domain where there's atime difference, and rip Band Weekle ends

(01:11:49):
up aging a lot more quickly thanhis friends who were here to see.
This opens up a Pandora's box ofso many different questions. I mean,
how we've possibly thinking of there's aparallel universe or Okay, the Dugan call
these super superposed superimposed domains. Okay, if you look at a biological cell,

(01:12:15):
there are chemical reactions going on withinthat cell that all happened at a
range of different paces. They reflectdifferent time frames, but they all happen.
They all work together to create lifein the cell. You can think
of it the same way that ajazz combo works. That every player in
the jazz combo has complete freedom toplay what they want, but it's got

(01:12:40):
to be in keeping with what therest of the combo is doing. This
energetically, this is called quantum coherence. It's why you need two modes of
time. One mode is a modeof overview, the other one is a
mode of detail. That's the natureof consciousness. The ability to take a
thing, see it an overview,break it down into the detail, and
then put it back together. That'sconsciousness. So energetically, we're saying that

(01:13:05):
consciousness and that life itself is quantumcoherent. It works the way a jazz
combo works. That every event thathappens we have the ability to perceive in
terms of how it affected electricity orhow it affected magnetism. And depending on
which one we focus on, weeither get the overview view of what's going

(01:13:26):
on and we get the detail.That's also what the story of both Cyrus
is about. It's about taking athing that's whole, breaking it down into
fourteen pieces, and scattering it acrossthe law land, and then pulling it
back together to reconstitute it. Thatdescription of how consciousness works, that's that's
fascinating, Laird. That is,when do you think about it that way?

(01:13:49):
So has is there an applied scienceto prove these theories that this is
the case that the dogone we're rightin what they were discussing. Well,
all of those pictures that Peter showedare intuitive demonstrations that they got it exactly
right, because the dogan drawing thathe is to represent the thing lines up

(01:14:11):
perfectly with the scientific diagram that representsthe same thing. Now, we're not
in a realm where we can provethings to five decimal positions, but we
can certainly demonstrate to the satisfaction ofanybody's intuition that the dogan understand what they're
talking about. Interesting, now,has anybody interacted with the dogan? I

(01:14:35):
mean, what's happened with the tribe? Okay, the Dogan. The way
the esoteric tradition works in the doganwith the dogan is one student works with
one informant, and it's the jobof the student to ask the next question
for his own education. The womenwork with the women, the men work

(01:14:58):
with the men. The initiate askedthe next question, and as long as
it's appropriate to what the initiate hasalready been told, the priest is required
to give a truthful answer. Ifit goes too far, if it jumps
too far ahead of what the initiateknows, the informant is required to remain
silent, or if he has to, he can lie to throw the initiate

(01:15:21):
off the off the track. Wow. And there are certain deliberate FIBs along
the way that the tradition makes,where where they're telling you something that you
later figure out based on what otherthings you know that it can't be the
truth that they were fiburting about thatthing. But why would they do that?
Why would they purposely do that toa student, to a person that

(01:15:45):
strength. Well, part of whatthey're trying to teach is what they call
discriminating knowledge. It's being able okay, facts or to know a list of
facts is one thing, but theability to draw a correct inference from those
facts is an entirely different skill.And they're trying to teach both skills.
Yes, So they're trying to havethem hone in on their intuitive, their

(01:16:10):
education the skill and put all thepieces together in a certain order to come
to the next conclusion. Right,And they want them, they want them
to be practiced at at checking outthe reliability of what someone tells them.
You know, how do we knowthis is true? As a matter of
fact? For me, with interpretations, I said that an interpretation has to

(01:16:31):
begin with a flat statement on thepart of one of the ancient cultures.
But the last piece of the interpretationis I've got to be able to complete
a simple sentence. I've got thesentence is we know this must be true
because and then in a simple way, explain why how it is that we

(01:16:53):
can't see it any other way thanthe way they're presenting it. What compels
us to accept it's truthful? Whatthey're telling us it is. It's mind
blowing that that's the that's the waythey go about on how they hand it
down. Um, you know theknowledge in that form, right. It's

(01:17:15):
like you ask me a question andif I think it's valid, I'll answer
it. And if you're asking aquestion that's pretty much out of context,
I'm either not going to say anythingto you, I'm going to lie to
you, right because you're not.I mean that they prefer not to lie,
but if they have to, theywill because you're not asking the relevant
question that should be next in theorder that it should be right. But

(01:17:41):
that's also helping me build a coherentbody of knowledge myself to think about what
I've already learned and extrapolate from thatabout what do I need to know next.
I mean, that's basically the processI had to go through to write
these books. Did you go Imean, did you actually go to Africa?
Did you go to the location?And no? And the reason I

(01:18:01):
didn't is because the dogan will nottalk truthfully with somebody until they trust them,
And that's a twenty year process.In every every culture that has this
esoteric tradition, it takes twenty yearsof affiliation with the tribal group before the
person who's writing about it was trustedwith the information. Even the French anthropologists

(01:18:26):
who went there for thirty years tostudy this, the dogan didn't start getting
the straight truth from them until themiddle of the They started in the nineteen
thirties. They didn't start getting thetruth in the middle of the nineteen fifties.
Wow, that's that's fascinating in itselfthat it takes that long to develop
a relationship to even gather some informationa starting point. But this is the

(01:18:50):
same process that U trying to thinkwhat it's called. In Western culture you
had people with advanced art skills andso forth taking on initiates. I'm trying
to think what they're they're called thestudents who study with a master wood carver,

(01:19:15):
ristans studies with a master art likesomeone like Da Vinci. That that
whole apprentice system was the way thingswere done in Western culture for hundreds and
hundreds of years, and it workedperfectly well to pass very complicated knowledge forward
to the new apprentice. Wow,is anyone currently interacting with the Dogan tribe

(01:19:40):
or if you're yeah, I meanthere are people that presumably they're still being
instructed the way they always were.And I don't know of anybody personally who's
involved with that, and I'm surethey don't feel at liberty to speak about
it if they're doing it. Butbecause it's also understood in these traditions that
it's possible, under the right circumstancesto self initiate, initiate, and self

(01:20:05):
educate. A few years ago,a friend gave me a book written by
an African healer called Melodoma. SomeMelodoma put Patrice so may This is a
guy who is born into the Degaratribe, who are cousins to the Dougan,
and then forcibly taken away and educatedin the Western tradition, and then

(01:20:28):
he went back as a teenager tobecome initiated in his tribe, and he
describes what he went through the processas he was required to go through to
be initiated. And as I readhis book, I realized, Hey,
my my adult son and I haveboth gone through that exact same process without
knowing it, we self initiated thispiece of it. Is there any new

(01:20:54):
relevant information? I know you've writtenbooks on this that the public is,
you know, not really aware ofhis of the stuff with dealing with astronomy,
But is there anything right now,especially what's going on currently with UAPs.
Yeah, well, I'll tell youthe way to come to arrive at
an understanding of it is, backin the nineteen twenties and thirties, there

(01:21:14):
was a community of very intelligent physicists. These are the Schrodinger's and the the
Broglees, and the Einstein's and soforth. Now, each one of these
there may be half a dozen ormore of them who took the task on
themselves to try to explain this fitthe new physics in everyday language Layman's terms.

(01:21:41):
Now, these are people who witnessedevery stage of development of the theories
that led the quantum theory and wavetheory and things like that. They understood
intuitively, why was it that thisguy's discovery knocked that discovery out of acceptance?
You know, what was that thatdidn't hold water in terms of this

(01:22:02):
guy's view? That makes some sensein terms of the new view. And
they sat down and they wrote booksto explain it to people like me who
wanted who didn't want it in termsof mathematical formulas, they wanted in terms
of plain English. Explained this tome. How come what is it that
causes the various kinds of quantum weirdnessand so forth? And what happened?

(01:22:25):
I've spent the last couple of yearsby oh, buying and steadiness baccol and
I think we're going to lose himagain. See, I want to know
if the connection is established between goingback thousands of years. Of course a

(01:22:46):
lot of people speculated. I amdefinitely one of them. When you have
Sumer Dilman, the connection between Persiaand Egypt and other parts of the world.
What was this something that was sharedglobally because the evidence there's evidence that

(01:23:10):
it's here as well, in NorthAmerica, South America, Central America.
The land bridge or whether they camehere the Phoenicians came here. I don't
want to know if there's a connection, because there seems there is a connection,
and hopefully lad will be coming back. I even question if it was

(01:23:31):
actually the Egyptians. This is justmy own opinion. Everyone, if the
Egyptians actually built those pyramids. AndI really want to get down to those
kind of things with Laird because he'swritten many different types of books. As
I was going on before, pointof Origin, Go Blackley TEPPI. I

(01:23:56):
mean, that's another one. Howold is that site? Twelve fourteen thousand
years old? Here's another book,Primal Wisdom of the Ancients, Seeking the
Primordial, the Velakowski heresies, World'sin collision in ancient catastrophe, Catastrophes revealed.

(01:24:21):
And that's another thing, the GreatFlood. I would there's so many
things I can act this, gentleman, the great Pyramid hoax, because we're
to conceal the true history. That'sexactly what I was just saying, the
true history of ancient Egypt. NowI'm going to tell you all something.
You could take it for what it'sworth. I know someone that told me

(01:24:43):
in the past that was in Egyptat a location. And here comes Laird,
hopefully I'll get to that maybe later, Laird. I mean, you've
got me like thinking about so manydifferent things. I mean, I wish
I had more time to talk toyou. Obviously we got about thirty minutes.
But what you're talking about thousands ofyears of ago that they had this

(01:25:11):
knowledge correct, yes, okay,but so did the Egyptians quote end quote.
I'm just going to say that,right, But you have Dilman,
you have Sumer, you know,you have the Persians, all these different
widespread Africa, Middle East, righteven here in the Americas, right,

(01:25:32):
I mean Native American tribes had thesame thing. And there are certain signatures
you can tell by. One ofthe signatures is that technique I was talking
about of the sun rising behind amountain. If you have an agricultural society
that located themselves in view of amountain like that to watch the sunrise or
sunset, you know for sure theywere part of the same tradition. If

(01:25:56):
you have a culture who imagined thatthere was a wheel associated with the Ryan,
there's no you look up there,there's no wheel that you can see
with Orian. But if a culturessaid that they thought there was one,
that's part of a of a cosmologicalmyth that that's central to this whole thing.
If they measured with cubits, youknow they were they benefited from the
same instruction. So after let's justI just want to go back. I'm

(01:26:20):
going to go off track a littlebit. Okay. Supposedly in Dolman the
Great it describes the great flood.M It seems like to me, would
you consider Domin to be like theearliest established language before Sumer because Domin predates
Sumer. Correct. Yeah, Idon't have a perspective on what the first

(01:26:43):
language was because I pick up withthe cosmological language, which had to have
come from this this group of teachers. Um, so it could not have
been the first language that people used. So it's teachers. Tell me a
little bit more about the teachers.Where are are you talking about other worldly

(01:27:03):
teachers or when you say cosmologically teachers? Okay, the Dogan define Okay,
we were talking about the three monopolesthat emerge from superconductive state. According to
the Dogan, one of the rolesof those monopoles is to communicate between the

(01:27:25):
energetic domains, to communicate between Okay, all of these traditions define the concept
of a primordial consciousness. But theydon't deify it, they don't turn it,
they don't try to turn it intoa god. They say consciousness is
a natural outgrowth of magnetism electricity ina lot of the same ways that a

(01:27:46):
weed is going to grow any placethe circumstances are right. Wherever the seed
for the weed happens to fall,it's going to grow if it can.
Consciousness is the same way. It'sgoing to take hold at any level it
can if the circumstances are right.And so the feminine non material is one
of the terms for that primordial consciousness, and the monopoles are the method by

(01:28:11):
which that feminine non material communicates tothe other domains. As a matter of
fact, the Dogan term for thatcollective group of monopoles is that titiany.
The word tit yany is defined colloquiallyto mean messengers, or sometimes it's communicated
translated that means to greet, butwhat it literally means is to send to

(01:28:36):
say hello. This is an expressionof a very friendly intelligence. One of
the things those orbs do, theseorbs of energy do is what John Burke,

(01:28:57):
a well known researcher, proposed thatthey were connected with. This is
the fertilization of agricultural seeds. Hedid um scientific studies on ancient sites to
demonstrate that if you brought um uma group of agricultural seeds to the top
of a pyramid in Central America andleft them there under the right circumstances,

(01:29:18):
you can produce ten times as ashealthy a crop as other seeds. And
these these orbs of light, theorbs of light appear in places um like
that are very wet, like umwet caves. They appear, and they
appear anywhere that um water is brokendown into ions. It's the separation of

(01:29:47):
the ions that that fosters an environmentthat attracts those um orbs. So are
the orbs are actually a conscious livingentity? The Dogans say they are.
And one of those varieties of orbsis what became the Dogan teachers. They

(01:30:08):
crossed over from the domain next starsinto our domain, knowing that it was
a one way trip, and tookthe form of a living creature and gave
instruction to people in the elect theDogan. Because I'm sure you're aware layer
there are people who have claimed tohave you come in contact with orbs obviously

(01:30:31):
they give off energy, but alsothat the orbs communicate with them, right,
I mean, look at look atthe story of Moses on the Mountain,
that the burning bush might well havebeen containing an orb or maybe simply
based on that time period, it'sdescription, the burning bush might have been

(01:30:54):
the best way to describe what hewas seeing at that moment, right,
I mean, yeah, who knowswhat it actually exactly. Okay, now
to take it the next level,I talk about the three monopoles emerging together
and the electron gets pushed out intoan orbit around them the proton. The

(01:31:15):
dogan is saying that's exactly what happenedwith the two serious stars and our Sun,
that all three emerged together from spiralingbirthplace of stars called Barnard's Loop,
and that our Sun got you.We're gonna lose him again. I apologize

(01:31:36):
to those that are watching. LikeI said, he lives in near Albany
in New York. I am southof his location, and I don't know
if you've seen what's going on behindme, but we've had very bad storms
all day here in the Hudson Valleyup north the areas and Peters even having
issues. Unfortunately, Peter probably stoolswithout power. I've heard, like I've

(01:32:00):
been doing this a long time asa producer and I've been involved with different
guests. You can only imagine,and you hear about the shared consciousness the
metaphysical aspect, But it seems likewith the Dogon, there's a science,
there's an actual science application, amethod, and I have to ask him

(01:32:26):
have signed I mean he mentioned likein the thirties and forties, scientists look
at this Einstein, But are theyreally looking at this now? And I
wouldn't be surprised if they are,Like scientists are looking at what the Dogon
have been talking about for thousands ofyears. I mean, it seems like
they've they're advanced in their understanding oflike I said, astronomy earlier, the

(01:32:54):
cosmos, and did they interact withthe intelligence a form of life that may
not have been physical in the sense, but more conscious. You know.
I think that sometimes we think oflife as being carbon based to the understandings

(01:33:17):
that what we think they would appearas you hear so much about grays and
all these other type of extraterrestrial typespecies. But what if it's nothing like
that, What if it's it's moreof an energy source like a light being
interdimensional and personally for me, I'dlean more interdimensional to me. That makes

(01:33:42):
more sense than traveling here from vastdistances. I'm not underestimating a civilizations capacity
to be technical technologically advanced out theyears ahead of us, but it's still
we are such a small spec inthe universe, in our galaxy to find
us. But maybe we're making ourselvesknown a little bit too easily for them

(01:34:04):
to follow and sewn in on us. Who knows. But I'm just like
Laird. It's fascinating because I,like I said, I was just telling
the audience that is watching or listeningthat I hear a lot. I've heard
a lot about the metaphysical aspect,the consciousness aspect, But it seems like

(01:34:26):
the dogon or the dogan seemed tohave a scientific explanation behind it, and
I'm I'm curious, do you thinkthat our scientists or scientists around the world
are actually looking at this and tryingto put an applied method to it like
they are? But there there Ican see definite signs of deliberate misdirection.

(01:34:49):
I think that that at some pointalong the line, the ones who understood
what was going on was actually goingon, which I believe Einstein did set
most of the world scientists off ona wild goose hunt with string theory and
theories like that, even quantum,even the quantum like can I say the

(01:35:13):
shortingers quantum theory is a misdirection inthat I don't think that it's true that
everything's based on probabilities. It's basedon things that connect mechanically, only sometimes
so quickly that we are not ableto measure them properly. They look random
does, but they aren't really random. And so I'd say that just like

(01:35:35):
with UFO knowledge, we can seethat there is a upset of the world
that has the technology that is makinguse of it for their own benefit,
but not sharing it with the restof the world. I'd say that's where
a lot of this is at interms of the science. Oh, I

(01:35:56):
think a lot of that is alsofor obviously it's going to be for the
middle terry industrial complex, and thenit's under the umbrella of national security.
And of course they're not going toshare with any other country because they want
to be ahead of everyone else.There are profits to be made from this
step. They're not going to justhand it off right, and to think
about the applications that that can beused with this technology for everyday use for

(01:36:19):
power sources. And I mean itcould be it could break everything to pieces,
because I think you have to thinkabout all the corporations to have a
vested interest in trying to take thatas long as they can fossil fuels on
one side. You have the greenenergy folks on the other. But if

(01:36:42):
this was to come out like anenergy source that can power a city with
a small little box, I'm justhypothetically saying that, right, it changes
everything completely, right, And likeyou said, it's all about the money.
As long as money is to bemade on other things, they will
wait. They will wait till thelast second to all resources are done and

(01:37:04):
run out. Then they'll say,oh, well, look what we have
the shiny little box. Now.Hinduism talks about levels of consciousness. Those
levels of consciousness coincide with these fourteendomains I'm talking about of energy. Renee
guing On is a famous metaphysician whowrote in the early nineteen hundreds numbers of

(01:37:28):
books getting down into the nitty grittyof how metaphysics work. And the idea
is that we have superimposed levels ofconsciousness, that individual consciousness is just sort
of the tip of an iceberg.Would would you consider out of body experience

(01:37:53):
or people that have lucid dreams tobe part of that consciousness like going yes
and anything that we consider to beparanormal potentially as part of that same set
of energetics that I think there arepotential scientifically valid explanations for why and how
all these things work. Samkia saysthat the non material domain makes routine efforts

(01:38:19):
to communicate knowledge to the material sideand to induce action from people on the
material side, and that there aremany different ways of receiving that that you
know, paranormal effects and telepathy andintuition and vivid dreams, the odd behavior

(01:38:46):
of animals. There are all sortsof different ways, you know, like
Ayahuaska type drug use. There aremany different ways to connect with it.
But there has to be a scientificlike if we're going to talk science,
that means there's something within us inour brains that acts as a receiver or

(01:39:08):
a transceiver. Correct, if it'san unconsciousness level or I mean if yes,
I mean, if if consciousness isa natural byproduct of the energies.
We know that we have ways ofconnecting to the energies we have, that
we have consciousness, that we're ableto access that in ways that we know

(01:39:30):
about, but who knows what otherways there are that we don't know about.
True, I mean, that's totallyI totally understand it. So I
got to ask you, because wehave about fifteen minutes left. Are we
talking about extraterrestrials or interdimensionals? Whatis your theory? We're not talking about

(01:39:54):
traditional sci fi aliens who get theirship and fly here. That's not to
say those don't also exist, becausethere's lots of evidence that they do,
but we're talking about they had superimposedlevels of consciousness that you know, how

(01:40:15):
different the life forms are on thebottom of the ocean from what we see
at the surface. Imagine if youwere a fish swimming just below the surface
of the ocean and a boat,a motor boat passed by, what would
you see? You'd see something thatlooks very would look to you very much
Pufo the Almonds Bottom of Power.I think we lost him one more time,

(01:40:46):
and that's unfortunate because we're running lowon time. But I think he's
definitely talking about a consciousness. Idon't know if i'd necessarily want to say
living in the physical sense, butessentient, like a light force, like
a like he said, like anorb It doesn't have a physical like we

(01:41:11):
would we say, a physical formlike he said, the typical extraterrestrial species
we hear about. I think we'redealing with something totally different and on a
consciousness level, um. And Ithink that might be hard for a lot
of people to understand, um,But to me it may make sense.

(01:41:34):
If you if you're able to gothroughout the universe, it's time and space,
a consciousness that doesn't have to worryabout the physical difficulties like what we
would go through to travel through space, um. But a consciousness that can

(01:41:59):
utilize that doesn't have to worry aboutthe physical the physicalities involved of traveling,
the difficulties. But yet this consciousnesslighte force can maybe travel. Who knows
how fast? Who knows how theycan can manipulate time or space as we

(01:42:20):
understand it. It's it's really it'sreally fascinating. And I have to say
interdimensional, like I said earlier,is more the way I'd lean that they're
able to transcend dimensions and maybe usethat like bending space, call it like

(01:42:43):
a wormhole. But they're able tomanipulate time and space something that we cannot
comprehend. It's just way beyond understandingright now, because we see things the
way we understand them today. That'swhy I mentioned him earlier. Well,
if you're talking about a time period, they're going to describe it based on
what their understanding is at the time, their surroundings. They may use a

(01:43:08):
wheel or a rock or whatever itis to try to understand what they're looking
at at the moment based on butlike for us we could say a plane,
a rocket, we have more atour disposal to describe things, even
an orb. I don't think anorb would be something that they would use

(01:43:29):
thousands of years ago a source ofbeing a like a beacon of light possibly,
you know. Like I'm just goingto use this as an example layered
in the Bible because I'm a Catholic, and the Ezekiel the wheel within the
wheel, and to me, itsounds like there's something coming in. It's

(01:43:53):
a craft and there's creatures around it. But that's just my own interpretation.
But they're using a wheel, they'reusing sapphire the collar. It's burning.
Yeah, but that's I'm trying tosay. That's they're using what's at their
disposal, right, gribe something forthat time period right now. They don't
have the words and they don't havethe concepts and exactly. So what I'm

(01:44:18):
saying is like, now, eventhough we have all these things around us,
it may be beyond our human comprehension. Think about what we're dealing his
dealing with a life form that isa consciousness. Um, it's in the
form of an an orb it's itlooks like it's electrical, magnetic, whatever

(01:44:42):
it is. But we are soused to thinking of life as being what
we experience here on our planet ashumans and animals and everything else. This
this is could be a little bitabove and beyond what people truly can understand
as the ability of a life form. Right, So you know, and
we've got it like ten minutes,but I gotta I gotta jump to Egypt.

(01:45:04):
You you have a book here andI'm fascinated with Egypt as well,
The Great Pyramid Hoax. Okay,that actually is a book that I wrote,
wrote a recommendation for. I didn'tdidn't write it. You wrote the
forward right, No, I aman endorsement for it. I was asked
by the publisher to read the bookand to write an endorsement for the book.

(01:45:29):
So what is your take on thepermits? Um, Let me ask
you this first. Do you thinkthat the Egyptians built those permits? Well?
I can say for certain, Okay, Architecture tells us things that there's
certain symbolism that's a source associated withcertain eras. If we have an energetic

(01:45:54):
half cycle. In the first firsthalf of the half cycle, like twelve
thousand years, circular structures or circularsymbolism applies to the Earth. And so
at seven thousand BCS you have allthese houses that are built with circular bases.
You get past the midpoint of thehalf cycle, and squareness associates with

(01:46:17):
the earth, and so now youget structures built with a square base.
The Dogan have a shrine that's builton a round base. Buddhist stupid is
built on a square base. Thepyramid Great Pyramid is built on a square
base. That tells me it wasbuilt in the second half of an energetic
cycle, the last six thousand yearsof a cycle. So that doesn't knock

(01:46:44):
it out of the ball part ofa park of having been built at twenty
four hundred BC, the way theEgyptologist thing. But because the Great Pyramid
has no hybrodglyphs in it, thebest guess is it was built before there
were hybrodglyphs, because so many ofthe other pyramids do have hieroglyphs in them.
That's true, that's an excellent point. So that pushes up sometime before

(01:47:08):
three thousand BC to have been built. I have little clues like that.
I can't say definitely that it wasbuilt in a particular era. It also
looks as if as okay, themiddle of the cycle is about thirty six
BC. It's the time when theHebrew calendar starts. And what I see

(01:47:29):
happening energetically is it becomes more andmore difficult to hold open a line of
communication for anyone who's here with peoplein the other domains or with intelligences in
the other domains. And they keepbuilding larger and larger and more complicated structures
to try to hold open the energeticspace. They need to be able to
communicate. That's what I was goingto get to next, the energetic space.

(01:47:54):
So you believe that they did servesome type of a purpose the pyramids.
Yeah, the Great Pyramid, ithas the ability to resonate at all
the different frequencies internally. So mybest guess is that one of the primary
purposes was communication with those other domains. But if so, then as time

(01:48:15):
goes on you would be moving fromstone circles up to more significant structures.
The timing of twenty might be justabout right for the Great Pyramid in terms
of how big a thing they hadto build to hold open the gateway.
But because there's parallelism and all this, it might go back a full cycle.
It could go back another twenty fourthousand years. Who knows. So

(01:48:39):
maybe they were building bigger and largerones because they felt that they had the
need to make it bigger to harnessthe energy right right, that they needed
a different kind of a structure tohold open a gateway. That's fascinating that.
That's fascinating because I've heard that theoryas well. It was it's harnessing
some type of energy. You know, there's another thing happening with all those

(01:49:01):
structures in Egypt, that there aresigns that in certain eras, certain construction
was happening sort of across the boundaryfrom the domain next to rs to ours,
but there was a time difference betweenthe domains. So imagine that you
were living in a in a circumstancewhere time ran so fast you only had

(01:49:27):
the longest moment you had to accomplishsomething across that boundary with pretty long over
here, not very long on yourside. In that era, you might
be cutting seven hundred ton blocks ofstone to build with. But as time
goes on, the size of theblocks of stone we get smaller and smaller
and smaller because the time frames arecoming together, and now you could access
a smaller thing. This is likecontent of the plank length. The plank

(01:49:50):
length, which is supposedly the smallestmeasure we can make in the quantum world,
is a function of the difference inthe time scales. That if our
time frame we're quicker, we couldmeasure a more refined unit. So by
manipulating time is how they were ableto construct. Is that we're saying construct.

(01:50:10):
I'm saying that the factor that's changingenergetically from non materiality to us is
the pace of time is slowing down, and it has been all the way
along to this day, right thatthat time as we experience it right now.
A moment in time as we experienceis a lot slower than a moment
in time the same moment a timewas, you know, a billion years

(01:50:33):
ago. I wish we had moretime, because I would really like to
know what the mechanisms of this slowingor speeding of time is and is it
tied to these cosmic teachers and thisconsciousness tied to the wavelength of the energy,

(01:50:56):
and as the wavelength gets longer,time slows down, so we could
manipulate that it can right now.Do you think that they're using that technology
right now to manipulate that energy tocreate propulsion devices that we may be using.
No, I'm sure they're trying tomanipulate it in the ways they can,
But I don't know what the limitsare on them being able to do
that. But if they're able totap into it, and they're they're getting

(01:51:20):
the information from based on like whatyou said, the information that the dog
On and maybe other ancient civilizations hadat their disposal at that time, maybe
they have stuff that we're not awareof. I'm sure, I'm sure they
do. I'm pretty pretty sure thatany UFO that we have direct view of

(01:51:42):
is not off planet, it's ours. I tend to agree with you on
that one. That we've had longenough to develop the technology that we can
produce vehicles that mimic what the theactual UFOs are doing, and so we
have to be very careful about whatwe accept as being disclosure. I agree,

(01:52:04):
and anything short of klat two andgort On the National Mall even done,
a lot of people may not believeit. They're going to say,
oh, this is part of afalse flag or something else going on.
You know, it's going to takea lot to convince the masses that this
is anything that's genuine in the systemthat I study. Anything that's original to

(01:52:28):
the system I study, comes witha degree of self confirmation of meaning.
In other words, you have away of verifying that it's legitimate. It
doesn't just say a thing one way, like at at Go Beckley tepe A.
The symbolism is talking about these twoenergies magnetism electricity to come together,
and they repeat the same concept ina dozen different ways. You can't mistake

(01:52:54):
what they're talking about because they've saidit in a dozen different ways. Whose
meanings have survived down through the eraswell, Lard. Obviously it's a pleasure
and honor to speak with you.Um, this is sudden for me.
Unfortunately Peter lost power as well.Yes, we had our little storm issues
going on, but it was apleasure to speak with you tonight. Anything

(01:53:16):
upcoming for you, You got anynew books any I know you had that
book earlier that I think that's thenewest book, right that's the newest book.
I'm working on the other projects rightnow, but nothing pending that close
to publication. Okay, Well,thank you for coming on the show meanwhile
here on Earth, and hopefully Peterwill get you on in the near future,

(01:53:38):
and hopefully we won't have any weatherissues too, yes, and so
listen, God bless you, andI'm so glad that your health, your
health is coming back and you getthank you day by day and yeah,
well we'll do this again sometime soon. So Lard, thank you so much,
Thank you very much, and everybodyout there hy a great right.

(01:54:00):
Next week, Peter will be aprerecord, He'll be in Roswell, I'll
be in Roswell. We're all goingto be in Roswell. K Jerry VB.
So maybe we'll see you at thereat the booth with Peter and until
next week. Everyone has a greatnight and we'll see you then. Good
night, everybody,