Terry Lovelace

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Episode Transcript

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Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to MeanwhileHere on Earth. This program features in
depth conversations with the leading names inthe subjects of UFOs abductees, the paranormal
panel discussions, and the very bestand brightest of the next generation of writers

(00:24):
and researchers. Meanwhile Here on Earththe show breaking new ground in alternative talk
with your in trepid host, veteraninvestigative writer and researcher, Peter Robbins.

(00:50):
Hello and welcome or welcome back toMeanwhile Here on Earth. As many of
you know, we broadcast live everyMonday seven to nineties standard time PM,
and that is out of KGr Adigital broadcasting in the great state of Utah.
Although I am not in Utah,I'm in New York. No real

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formal monologue tonight, except to saythat last months one of the conferences I
had the privilege to speak at wasthe Ozark Mountain UFO Conference, a real
legend among UFO related events in theUnited States, going strong after thirty five
years, and a wonderfully run event, a great deal of terrific speakers,

(01:40):
an extraordinary crowd from all over thecountry and beyond, And while there I
had the chance to meet tonight's guests, who I had corresponded with irregularly over
the past few years, become increasinglyaware of his work, and it was
just a perfect time to connect anddecide that why not come on the show

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tonight? So Terry Lovelace has agrun to graduate degree in psychology and a
Juris Doctor from Western Michigan University.He served on active duty in the United
States Air Force from nineteen seventy threeto seventy nine. He trained as a
medic emt an ambulance driver in theservice, and did so for his entire

(02:25):
enlistment. He is now a retiredlawyer whose private practice was primarily involved in
civil ligation and criminal defense. Heentered public service as an Assistant Attorney General
for the United States Territory of AmericanSamoa and retired as an Assistant Attorney General
from the State of Vermont in nineteenin two thousand and twelve. He is

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also a best selling author, withone of his books right now, currently
Devil's Den The Reckoning, number onebest seller on Amazon in its genre,
which is pretty amazing. In nineteenseventy seven, he and a co worker
went to Devil's Den State Park innorthwestern Arkansas to photograph wildlife, particularly eagles.

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While there, they decided to headoff road and find a better advantage
point to set themselves up. Insaid they encountered something wholly other a triangular
shaped UFO, the experience of whichwas life changing. Terry's books Devil's Den
A True Story and Devil's Den TheReckoning, the book that is now number

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one in Enron Amazon see you Don'tGet This in podcast Dougs Only Live Radio
right. His book Devil's Den TrueStory tells the story of the life of
a lifetime interaction with non human intelligences, among other things. And while Lovelace

(04:00):
himself has never had a near deathexperience, he has experienced the phenomena vicariously
through two very credible individuals. Thewomen, both physicians, were without heartbeat
for four and thirty two minutes,respectively, while before being resuscitated. Both

(04:24):
returned to this life with enhanced psychicand mediumship abilities, and these things for
starters. Their stories are brilliantly realizedand told in the book free Fall and
American Near Death Experience, which isTerry Lovelace's newest book. He lives in
Dallas, Texas, with his wifeof forty four years and his family,

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and Terry Lovelace, it's a pleasureto welcome you to meanwhile here on earth.
Thank you, Peter. It's apleasure to be here. And you
are in Garland, Texas right now. And may I ask you, just
out of abject carry obviously, what'sthe weather like? Beautiful, absolutely beautiful,
about eighty two degrees, bright sunshine, now humidity, it's nice,

(05:12):
may continue year round. I liketo start at the beginning literally with a
lot of guests, and you know, exception, where were you born,
Terry, And can you tell usa little bit about your early childhood?
Sure? I was born in EastSaint Louis, Illinois. Actually my parents

(05:34):
had a home there and a littlesuburban community, but East Saint Louis was
on the decline back in the earlynineteen fifties. So I was born in
East Saint Louis, lived there asan infant, but then my folks moved
across the river to Saint Louis,Missouri, and that's really where I grew

(05:55):
up with Saint Louis, Missouri andsouth side in the city. Any siblings,
Yes, I have two sisters,one seventy six and one seventy eight
years of age, both of youwhom I won't admit to experiences, but

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admit to seeing lights in the skyor partney lights through the windows, and
there'd being nights when they couldn't findme in the house, and all kinds
of are there, like craziness asa kid. What did your father actually
do as a business person? AmI correct in assuming your mom was full
time mom? No, she wasa She was a cook in a nursing

(06:41):
home. Wow. And my daddrew over a truck. So blue collar
background, you know, the bluecollar work ethic in elementary school. Any
particular interests or dreams as a regulationkid, No, not that I can

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particularly think of. Um dreams inwhat regard in regard to what you wanted
to be when you grew up,which for many of us was a soldier,
a fireman, or one other twoof possibilities, you know, Mike.
My um occupation was chosen when Iwas about age nine, when I

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was having screaming nightmares, terrible nightmaresand had for a couple of years.
My folks took me to a medicaldoctor who examined me and said uh,
well, you know, let's letdad excuse himself. And the doctor pulled
up a chair beside me and said, listen, Terry, I just want
you to be well. Can youtell me about these because I refused to

(07:47):
tell him what I was dreaming about, because I was dreaming about et and
spacious and says, you know,I'm your doctor. You can trust me.
Dad's out of the room. Behonest with me. What are your
droms about? And I told her, and he summoned my dad right back
in and said, well, Ithink we found the problem. It's too

(08:09):
much space ghost and too much Lostin Space cartoons on television, and you
need to change to change his televisionhabits. Wow, I was I was
one anger. I was one pissedoff a little nine year old. I
got to tie you how disrespectful tothe reality that you knew you were living
with At the same time, Intuitively, young people going through this kind of

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thing usually know that this isn't goingto go over well in the adult world
if I talk about it. Yeah. Yeah, So my parents decided that
I should watch Three Stooges, sothat I was limited to the Three Stooges
and it was about sixty days before, Mulari and Curley had everybody in the
house and on their last nerve,and my mother comes down. She says,

(08:58):
look, let's find something else foryou to watch. So they put
on Perry Mason. Oh my god. I started watching Perry Mason and I
loved it. You know, hada little crush on Della Street and uh,
you know, I thought the plotdidn't incredible. Yeah, and I
love it. I want to dothat for a living. That's what I

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want to do. Imagine if youhad followed the previous role models which stoode,
do you think he would have emergedmost like you know, that's hard
to say, probably teaching from medicine. Were you much of a reader as
a kid, um within a smallgroup of kids, and maybe any favorite

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books informing your elementary school, junior, high school, or high school years.
You know, I can't, Ican't really say. I can't really
think of one that. Uh well, you in Cold Blood by Truman Carapodi
was a pretty darn good book.It was a in book made for a
powerhouse of a movie. Oh mygosh, yes, it did. How

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interesting the power of television to directyoung people in the right direction. It
is usually discussed. But way togo, Raymond Burr. Yeah, were
you much of a movie kid orit was pretty much what we were watching
on television? No, my folksdidn't take us to the movies very often,

(10:28):
so it was a rarity to seea movie. As you were coming
toward the end of high school,you're still living with these memories of encounters
with non human intelligences? Can youshare with us and early or your earliest

(10:50):
memory of this phenomena and how youexperienced it. Sure, my earliest,
I believe was around age four.I mean, how do you know that
you're four? But you know,in retrospect, I think that was probably
about four years old, and Iwas having nightmares and I was also having

(11:13):
events that I thought were real,and I still did as they believed that
they were real, and it wasthe manifestation. And this sounds a little
nuts. I know of little threefoot tall monkeys and I called them the
monkey Man, you know, andthey looked like they were right out of
a circus, And at first theywere kind of comical, and I'm like,

(11:37):
wow, this is weird. Igot real circus monkeys in my room.
But you know, I think thatthat speaks to the level of influence
that these things have over the humanmind. Because I've got letters from people,
hundreds of letters from people who haddear owls, a Disney character,
orbs of light. I think theycould, they can fashion themselves to appear

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most benign to the child. Ithink you're probably right, and I wonder
sometimes to what degree our own humanminds enter into assisting in the process.
Namely, I am looking at thisthing that the world might term a gray
or a variation, and I completelycan't handle this. There is no way

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I can process what I'm seeing isthis isn't happening. So I'm seeing a
three or four foot tall white owlor monkey instead, which is ludicrous.
But I'm a little better at handlingit. Or I think you're absolutely right,
to paraphrase the old entry into OuterLimits television, we control the vertical,

(12:46):
we control the horizontal the most certainlyeffect By thinking, had you,
as a boy, ever tried toexplain this specifically to your parents, how
seriously you took it and then ata certain point maybe stopped or did you
ever remember doing that? As apoint, I do remember trying, um,

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you know, and my mother sittingdown with me and having a heart
to heart. You know, Carrie, you know there are monkeys on television.
You know, you see them atthe zoo, but they're not they're
not in your room. There thatthat's not happy. That's a dream that's
all in your mind. And whatelse could they think? Ah, they
thought that I should be involved inmore activity so I wouldn't dwell on this

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kind of stuff. So that's reallyheart running in a way. They're doing
the best they can. Nothing intheir world has ever given them even the
smallest signal that this is something thatyou might be one watching out for.
Um, did you just learn tohave it be your secret life and get

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on with things as far as friendshipsand maturing and you know, growing in
the world or eventually yeah, yeah, I mean I think that we all
learned to cope. Um, youknow, if it's not if it's not
threatening my life, I think witha little bit of time and we can

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adjust. And I had a friendthat I confided in, my friend Ernie,
who was a good friend in gradeschool, good and he believed me.
He absolutely believed me. That's reallyput a damper on the sleepovers,
you know at my house. Butseriously, I think I had one.

(14:41):
No, I absolutely know of caseswhere of sleepovers where it was a night
where they got visited and you youjoined the club. So to say,
no joke. Um, you're cominginto the end of high school. Um
are you service eligible at the time, and do you enlist or you go

(15:03):
to law school? Well, obviouslyyou go to university first, but what
is the chronology of what happens asyou graduate from high school. Well,
I wanted a college education. Myparents didn't have the economic wherewithal to send
me, and they also didn't havethe knowledge about about such things. They

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just didn't have experience. I wasthe first one in the family to go
to college. So I was toldby a high school counselor that, yeah,
go serve a couple of years inthe military. They'll give you a
free education. So I thought,I'll check that out. So I enlisted

(15:46):
for that purpose to get the GIBill so that I could fund my education,
and law school was on me.That was expensive, but my undergrad
was all paid by the Veterans Administry. It was while you were in the
service that you had the Devil's Denexperience. It was I was in the

(16:07):
military from nineteen seventy three to nineteenseventy nine, And like you said,
I served all my time on activeduty at Whiteman Air Force Base, which
is still there by the way.It's home to the b B two bombers.
Now where's it located. It's eastof Kansas City and kind of south

(16:29):
of Independence, Missouri got it,and you know, back in the seventies
it was in the middle of nowhere. But of course passage of time.
Now there's a lot, there's alot of commerce around it. So before
we go on, can I askyou were you having visitation experiences? And

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when I say that, in yourearlier experiences, were you taken or visited
or both? I was taken mostly, I mean I was visited. You
know what's kind of odd, andI have trouble reconciling, is that when
this thing first got started, whenI was four or five, one of

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the things that they did was alwaysask my permission. Now, they didn't
last very long, but that amatter of fact. One of my one
of my nightmares is that I'm backin my bed, I'm five years old,
and this monkey holds out a pawand says, once you come with

(17:34):
us, Terry, we'll take youhome. When we're done, we'll have
fun. Wow. And in mynightmare, I look back at the hand
and it's not a pause, it'sit's four long gray fingers, and I
just flip out. And I hadthat same dream repetitively. I wish I

(17:56):
worked more capable of lucid dreaming andhaving more control, don't we all,
or don't those of us, Yeah, because we had more while you were
in the service, or you havingthese kinds of experiences. No, there's
a matter of fact, from aboutage ten on I had zero. I

(18:17):
had a nice hiatus until nineteen seventyseven. You know, we did see
something odd in the sky over amissile silo in nineteen seventy five or six,
completely separate from the experiences you werehaving and these other intelligences. Did

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either of your parents ever seem tohave an interest in the subject of UFOs
or did it ever come up inconversation? Do you remember a reaction to
that as something wholly separate from yourown experiences. My dad was incredibly just
I mean engrossed in the topic.It was before the days of Google and

(19:02):
the Internet, and there weren't alot of resources and if there were a
new story on about funny life.They saw over Utah or someplace. He
would turn the TV up and everybodyhad to be quiet because he had to
hear this interesting. And I wouldask him, I said, where do

(19:23):
you think they come from? Theysaid, Oh, they're all Russians.
That's all just a bunch of stufffrom Russia. You know. Interesting.
Yeah, you I want to kindof weave back and forth at this point
because we're only about twenty minutes intothe show, and rather than you know,

(19:47):
interview you about these two separate stories. You've told the story about Devil's
Den to so many crowds and inso many forms, I'd like you to
basically do it again for my guests. Here are our audience, and just

(20:08):
share with them as the person thatexperienced it. Take it anyway that you
want to go. Sure your evening. So we go back now to nineteen
seventy seven. You're in furlough,you're taking some time off, You've got
a little downtime on base. Yes, I'm with my friend Toby. Toby

(20:30):
and I worked together. We workeda night shift in the emergency room.
And you know, if anything happens, there's a car accident or a heart
attack or plane in trouble were thefirst responders. So I enjoyed my job.
You know, we weren't we weren'tfighter pilots or anything, but you
know, driving an ambulance one hundredand ten miles an hour, you know,

(20:52):
when necessary, it was pretty funtoo. So I enjoyed, enjoyed
what I did in alternative. Itwas that was helping people, So it
was better than being chained to afile cabinet like a lot of people were.
So my friend Tolby, we wereplaying hearts one night, because you
know, there's nothing to do,there's nobody around. We playing arts in
the emergency room. My friend Tobysays, out of the blue, hey

(21:15):
man, I got an idea,let's go camping. And those are his
exact words that burned into my memory. Hey man, I got an idea,
let's go camping. And I'm like, camping, what are you nuts?
I knew he was a city kidfrom Flint, Michigan. I was
a city kid from Saint Louis,and I hadn't been camping, and I
suspected he'd never been camping. SoI was just curious where this came from.

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And he says, well, hesaid, you know, this could
be a nice form of entertainment forour family. Sounded cheap. We were
both newly married and he had acouple of kids already, but so we
were always looking for some way toentertain. You know, we would play
cards together, barbecue together, orHis wife and my wife were both best

(22:03):
of friends. So I said,well, I'll think about that, and
uh, you know, I thoughtabout it, and the more I thought
about it, the more obsessed Ibecame with the idea, and I asked
him, I said, well,how how do we do this? You
know, we were kind of thenerds of the squadron, right, I
mean, the average guy would say, let's go buy a tent from Walmart

(22:26):
and the cooler and head down there. And well that's what we ended up
doing eventually, June eleven, nineteenseventy seven. We packed my sixty six
Chevy Impalla and sandwiches and a tendollars came our tent, some Martian as

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of course. You know. Whatwas odd was that from the beginning the
wheels kind of fell off this trip, and that we were both competent guys,
and we made an exhaustive list ofwhat we should bring and half of
what we were supposed to bring wedidn't bring. I was an amateur photographer,

(23:15):
and you know how amateur photographers arejust and I bought some filters from
my new camera, bought some specialfilm. I left it at home.
I left it on my kitchen table. Oh and you know, Peter,
we just weren't that in it.That was not us. I don't get
that. So we drove down.There was a six hour drive, but

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we had a tent, we hadsome blankets, we had a cooler full
of stuff. So we had everythingwe needed to make a fun trip.
Sure, And we pulled into thepark and my friend told me says,
you know, we can't stay ina campground. I'm like, well,
wait a minute, we can.We're not going to stay in the campground.
He says, no, we can'tstay in the campground. And I

(24:00):
said, well, there are hotshowers and electricity there. Why don't we
stay there. He says, yeah, but think about it. So we're
gonna have somebody to the right ofus, somebody to the left of us.
He said, we might as wellbe camping in Kmart's parking lot.
There'll be you know, children andother undesirables. Running around all over the
place, and they said, let'sgo find our own place. Let's let's

(24:21):
be like Lewis and Clark famous lastwords man. So we skirted the rangers
station, didn't buy a camping permit, and came to a chain across the
road with this sternly worded morning keepout, do not intersign, no honey,
no camping, no fishing, thewhole litany of things. You can't
if you drop the word don't.It's kind of an invitation, you know,

(24:44):
it is for twenty two year oldlooking they have a break. So
this chain across the road, Ithought, well, we got to turn
around and find a different way in. And my friend told me was very
observants. Not just a minute.I at this the hop side of the
car, and the rangers had takenthat chain and looped it around itself with

(25:06):
a padlock and made a noose,and they just draped that noose over a
post on the opposing side of theroad on a nail, and he just
picked up the chain and dropped itand boom, we're in. So we
drove in, and we did feellike Lewis and Clark. We were on
top of the world, and wewent and we we came to this plateau

(25:27):
and I have pictures of it.It's on Google Earth. It's easy to
find. It's a beautiful view.It's a beautiful view. It's just a
weird plateau. And you know,there wasn't it was covered with grass and
wildflowers. There were no trees ontop of it. The top of the

(25:48):
plateau was level with the tops ofthe surrounding trees. So really this thing
was kind of invisible if you didn'tknow where to look for it. And
just by happening, Toby knew whichway to turn and we got there and
we found this place. There's adirt road that goes up to the top,
and you know, there's still adirt road to this day. It

(26:11):
goes up to the top and someonegoes up there and cuts that, I'm
told with a brush hog, whichis a tractor towing some kind of large
mower deck. Wow. And whenI was writing my book in twenty seventeen,
I did did some research and foundout that devil Stand really isn't in

(26:33):
devil Stand State Park. It's thatchain that was the boundary line between state
property and federal property. The placethat we trespassed. Onto is owned by
the Bureau of Land Management. Ifyou're going to do it, do it.
Yeah. So we went to thetop and top of this plateau,

(26:55):
set up a camp and it wasgorgeous place to be, it really was.
She had my camera and you know, we did all the fun stuff
you do when you can't because itwas all new to us. Yeah,
and set up camp and I kindof move the story along. We're we're
sitting on these air mattresses and wegot a fire between us and we're just

(27:18):
chatting just and I remember making thecomment I said, you know, hey,
to Hope, I can see howpeople would like this. This is
pleasant, and he's like, yeah, man, yeah, man, I
told you, I told you.I knew this would be ice. And
then I noticed And this sounds cliche, but it's true, and that is
that there were crickets and tree frogsand all the things that make noise in

(27:41):
the night. We're so loud thatwe were having trouble carrying our conversation across
the fire and that stopped. Andnot only did all the all the noises
stop and it went silent. Weeven lost the breeze that we had.
We had a little breeze going on, and it was just dead still.
That's eerie. And it was eerie, and it unnerved me. I mean,

(28:03):
we could hear the firecracker, butthat was it. And I said,
that's all of the collective far soundsand insects sounds simply stopped at a
moment, not gradually, they juststopped. No, they just stopped,
just stopped. And I asked myfriend, you know, like he's going
to know, right, I askedhim anyway, I said, Toby,

(28:26):
man, is this normal? Andhe said, yeah, you know,
we've been laughing and cutting up.We just quieted them. Don't worry about
the bugs. The bugs will beback. And he kidded me and gave
me a hard time about being worriedabout bugs. But it unnerved me.
And it was about this time thathe asked me, hey, Terry,
were those lights there before? Okay? And I knew there were no lights

(28:51):
visible from the plateau, and Isaid, what lights? What are you
talking about? And he's looking tothe west to his left, and I
can't see what he's looking because historso is in the way. So I
stood up and there were three littlestars and a tight triangle sitting just above
the horizon, and you know,I'm looking at him, and I'm thinking,

(29:11):
you know, a parking lot orfrom a train. But they were
too far above the horizon to abin anything like that, so I'm thinking
maybe and they seem to be static, but just stuck right there. And
I thought, you know, maybethis thing is headed absolutely toward us and
we can't see the motion because it'sheaded directly toward us, and when it

(29:33):
deviates its path by a degree ortwo, then we'll see some motion.
And there was none. And whilewe're watching this thing, they three stars
started to climb up into the air, and they climbed to in the middle
of the night, in the middleof nowhere. I had no reference as

(29:53):
far as height goes, so Ihad no idea how high this thing went.
It and up as three stars facingus, and when it reached what
I call a ceiling, it didthis it tipped over. So instead of
seeing three lights like this, ittipped over and we saw three points of

(30:15):
light in a line. And itstarted like a glide plane down in our
direction. And could you see starswithin the area that it defined or was
it just black? Oh? No? The area between between what we saw

(30:37):
those three points of light. Thearea between those three points of light was
absolutely black, and it blinked outthe stars as it went past them.
So and in two people haven't experiencelike this. Two human beings haven't experience
like this. And the rational reactionis that you look for validation. You

(30:59):
know, hey, are you seeingwhat I'm seeing? And what is that
thing? And there's some kind ofdialogue back and forth to validate the experience
or you just a quiet and wejust sat dead quiet. We didn't say
a word. And I'll speed uphere because the clock is running. This
thing came in over the tops ofthe trees and it dimmed the lights and

(31:26):
the points of the triangle. Andit's a mystery to me, and I
researched. There's nothing in newspapers.How could this thing not be seen in
five counties. I just don't understandthat. So it came to a stop
almost right over our heads. Wewere offset a little, which was good

(31:48):
because then we could see the sideof the thing. Is it possible to
give any realistic estimate of distance frommay not be, you know, as
an existance if it was big,But you have any intuition or about it.
Yeah, I think I can givea good approximation. This thing was
about the size of a Walmart ora medical building. It was big.

(32:09):
I mean it was take a cityblock on each side, and that's how
big it is. It was deadquiet, and it came to a stop
and we're just looking at at thisthing. And I would estimate that it
was three thousand feet over our heads, about three thousand feet up. I

(32:30):
think that's going to be pretty close. And then we get a little more
intimate with it later. But thisI mentioned, you know, there was
no discussion between the two of usabout hey, what is that thing?
There was just silence, and Ireally had this odd feeling, more like

(32:53):
an observer than a participant in theevents. I was in a strange place,
and my friend was likewise positioned,I'm sure. And the next thing
he said, there was no talk, not talk for quite a while,
and he stood up and said,shows over, Shows over, And he

(33:17):
picked up his air mattress in hisblanket and took ten steps backward and threw
it in the tent and fell ontop of it and went to sleep.
And I thought, yeah, they'restill there while he does this, Oh,
they're still there there, We're goingto bed with this thing three thousand
feet over our heads. But thatfeeling of relaxed, almost sedation that we

(33:40):
had earlier transition it transitioned from sedationto sleepy, and sleepy is a definite
different thing than just being mildly sedatedand that and all I wanted to do
was get into tent and go tobed. This interesting and ubiquitous in a

(34:02):
lot of cases, and I knowin your research you have come upon them.
I was describing just the other daymy experience as a kid deciding that
was somewhat life changing for sure,and my sister's experience of that and being
taken and documented it so many timesthat at a moment when you are experiencing

(34:29):
possibly the wildest, the most exotic, the most memorable, the most portending
thing of your life, it's Iwon't know it's on TV tonight, or
I am feeling a little bit tired, or I'm kind of hungry right now,
it makes no sense whatever. ThisI think is also something that's instilled.

(34:58):
It's just so count or intuitive,and yet there you are a classic
case of it. Yeah, Ithink I'm tired now and I'll go to
sleep. I got so many lettersand anybody who'd like to reach out to
me. I try to answer everybody. It's Terry Lovely, said Yahoo dot
com. No, pardon me,that's that's the no Terry Lovely, I

(35:22):
said, YEAHO dot com, that'sthe right one. We I didn't bother
to take off my I was wearingmy combat boots and jeans and a T
shirt. I didn't bother to undressat all. I just fell on top
of the mattress and I was Iwas out. I was asleep as soon
as my head hit the pillow.Yeah. And then I woke up sometime

(35:44):
later, and I don't know whattime it was because Toby and I both
were wind up mechanical watches which werekind of state of art for the day,
and they were integral to our jobas medics. You know, you
needed to take someone's pulse or thetime, different things. So my watch
was broken and mine stopped at twoforty Toby stopped at two forty two.

(36:10):
Those watches never worked again. Idon't know. So I woke up and
I was confused. I'm like,where am I? Oh, yeah,
I'm Toby and I are camping,and then there are these incredibly bright flashes
of white and yellow light coming infrom the through the canvas of the tent,

(36:32):
and when they come in for anothersecond, it lights up the whole
inside of the tent like crazy.And I'm thinking what I did. I'm
trying to think rationally, what couldthis be? And I thought, you
know, maybe a park Rangers truckwith those rotating lights on top there to
kick us out. That would makesense. But the flashes of light were

(36:58):
at odd intervals, they weren't predictingdouble So I sat up and my combat
boots were unlaced almost all the waydown. Now I know I didn't go
to bed with them like that.I would not go to bed with them
like that. It's a trip hazard. It's just it doesn't make sense.
I wouldn't have done that. Youknow, in the military, they teach

(37:20):
you to take care of your feet, so I would have taken them off
or out of left them laced.And but then I was annoyed, more
so than frightened, because it hadn'treally sunk in yet that we'd been taken
and we'd been undressed and redressed bysomeone else. So I laced up my
boots, tied them and my friendis on his knees and he's peeking out

(37:44):
his flap on his side of thetent to my left, and I'm like,
Toby, what is it? Whatare you seeing? Is it Park
Rangers? And he's like, wantsme to be quiet. And I didn't
get an a good decent answer outof him. So I looked out of
the flap on my tent and twothings that that triangular shape craft that was

(38:08):
three thousand feet over our heads whenwe went to sleep had descended and now
it's about thirty feet over the meadows, thirty feet over where we're at,
and we are right above one ofthe apex, one of the points of
the triangle, and that's where theselights are. So that's why these lights
were so bright. And now youcan see how huge it is as well.

(38:31):
We can. And we could seethe side of the thing. And
I did a drawing of it,kind of contemporaneous with the event, maybe
a month or two later, butit's it's it's drilled into my memory.
Talk about the surface of this craft. Yes, it was matt black.

(38:53):
It had square windows and there wereyou know, I'm not sure of the
depth of this thing. I sayfive stories. I think it could be
five stories tall. Maybe it wasthree stories tall. I don't want to
exaggerate, but three stories. Therewas big, and you know, it

(39:17):
was just like if you drive througha city an urban area at night and
you see a big office building,you know, you'll see lights on here
and there and the rest are Andthat's the way this was. And there
was what I call it an observationdeck. I believe that's still up on
Terry Lovelace dot com if anyone wouldlike to see the image Terry loves.

(39:38):
I hope everybody will visit Terry Lovelacedot com after the show to fill in
some of the spaces that because wedon't I'm not working with any pictures tonight.
Yeah. Yeah, there's a there'sa drawing of it there. And
there was what I called an observationdeck that was the entire top of this

(39:59):
thing. It was just like abig, long, frusted pane of glass
and we could see motion behind thatglass, but we couldn't make out individuals,
We couldn't make out a sharp image. It was just motion. And
then the second thing, that's thefirst thing I saw. The second thing

(40:20):
that I saw was twelve maybe fifteenof these little guys. Now, you
know there must be lots of graysout there, because whenever I tell my
story about the Grays that I saw, the Grays that I interacted with,
I didn't think they were sentient inthe way that you and I are.

(40:40):
I had the impression maybe they weremanufactured beings of some kind, and that's
that was my impression. They wereall identical and they were all task oriented.
I mean, you didn't see anyThere weren't four of them hanging out
having a smoke break or something.They were all doing something at this very
moment, are you still and asToby still, to the best of your

(41:04):
knowledge, in a state of thisis interesting and I'm not freaking out,
and we're in a state of fear. It's just absolute through the roof fear.
I didn't recognize them as being graysat first. I'm like, Toby,
man, what the hell are thesekids doing out here in the middle
of nowhere, in the middle ofthe night. And that's what he said,

(41:29):
Look at Terry, I don't thinkthey're human beings. Yeah, And
I looked in He's right. Theyweren't human beings. They were just very
typical grace it, either by intuitionor by exchange of information, did you
have any feeling whatsoever that Toby mayhave been an experiencer or this was all
one hundred and ten percent new tohim. And I'm convinced that Toby was

(41:54):
an experiencer. And I'll tell youwhy. His plans were to go to
u M University of Michigan and studyphysics and then do graduate work in cosmology.
He wanted to be an astrologer,cosmologist. He was just absolutely anything
in the space was his thing.And you know, warm nights in the

(42:16):
emergency room, we'd sit out onlaunch chairs, so he watched the sky
and he could tell me when whena and this was the days before internet.
He could tell me when a satellitewould come over within a minute or
two. Wow, we'd say,hire the Russians, Yeah, you know,
and they go, they go past. So and you know, we

(42:38):
never got to touch on that topic. We never got to touch on that
topic. And that's that's such ashame. But my intuition tells me,
yeah, that he was every bitas much of an experiencer as I am.
So then what happened. We werewatching these little guys walk around the

(43:00):
metal and they're paired up in liketwos and threes. And remember that this
ship thing is only about thirty feetoff the ground, about three stories.
And a light came on underneath thisthing in the center, and it was

(43:21):
it was a white light. Andwhen I say that, it mean it
was a visible light. It wasvery much like a high power searchlight cuts
through fog and you see a columnof light. This was a column of
visible light. And it just clickedon like somebody hit a switch. And
as soon as that clicked on,all of these little guys stopped and turned

(43:44):
and walked toward the light. Theyweren't running, they just just made their
way over to it. And aswe watched, two they went in pairs,
and in threes. Two of themwould step into the light and they
would pixel late out, very muchmuch like the old Star Trek things,
and then three would step in andthen they would pixel laid out. And

(44:06):
we watched until the last two pixellate it out. And at this point
it still hasn't dawned on us thatthat we've been that they're long done with
us. You know that we hadbeen taken, So we're just terrified.
I'm afraid to call or sneeze ordo something to draw attention to us.
But when the last two little guyswere gone, that light turned off again,

(44:29):
like hitting a switch, and thelights on the points of the triangle
dimmed a little bit, and therewas an occasional flash of yellow or orange
that stopped. The lights were allwhite at this point. And it lifted
off and it just went up likea hot air balloon. It didn't,
you know, take off like arocket. It just lift it up and

(44:52):
just gently, slowly went up intothe air. And the higher it went,
the faster it went. And wewatched it until it was three points
of light and then a single pointof light and then gone. And my
thought was, I'm not going outof this tent until daylight. I was

(45:13):
convinced that I had cover over myhead, that little piece of canvas hid
me, and I didn't I didn'twant to make the run to the car.
My friend Toby, on the otherhand, said, look, we
got me need to get out ofhere, and he convinced me that that
was the right thing to do,so we went. We darted to my
car. We left the tent,the cooler, his backpack, all our

(45:36):
stuff, We didn't care. Really, we wanted just out of there,
please, you know, that's allwe wanted. And I had some concern
that he could get us navigate,but he in it a flawless since the
direction and he was able to navigateus out without without too much trouble.
And we got back to Blacktop andstarted heading home, and that's when we

(45:59):
realized we were injured. I hadprobably if it felt like the worst sunburn
I'd ever had, and it waseverywhere, all over my body, soles
on my feet, I mean everywhere. And told me the same. And
we're both dehydrated. We're terribly dehydrated. At one point I asked him,

(46:19):
I said, look into the seatsif you can find something to drink,
and it's like, now, there'snothing under there. He looked, and
this was nineteen seventy seven, andyou know, muckwater, Arkansas somewhere,
and there's nothing open. So wedrove for an hour until it was daybreak.
In retrospect, we know that thismust have happened to us just about

(46:42):
an hour before dawn. So wefinally found a little gas station. I
pulled in, we got gas,and we just I drank a six pack
of orange soda and he had thisgallon jug of great aid. And whatever
they did to me, I thinkthey gave Toby a double dose because he
was he was really in a lotof discomfort. There's no way he could

(47:06):
have drove a car, and hewas kind of curled up into a ball,
and you know, sipping on thegreat bait every now and then.
And this is another common thing,um, and it's hard to talk about
a little bit. But for somereason my attitude were Toby changed and and

(47:32):
this this event is what changed it. Yea, And I wanted nothing to
do with the guy, and Ididn't understand that so and I'm sure he
felt the same. We were smartenough, we knew that if we went
back to the base and said,hey, we were we were taken away
by you know, et and abuying saucer the size of a Walmart that

(47:57):
they'd have sent us to to sayingAntonio for a psych evaluation. Plus the
fact that each one of you,just by your existence from that point on,
validates every detail of this. I'muncomfortable being around the person the force
that shares the knowledge of this withme, because I wish it hadn't happened,

(48:17):
and yeah, you know it's common. I got letters from people as
a family, and nobody wants totalk about it. As a family.
They witnessed this amazing flying saucer.They're on vacation and walking into a hotel
room. The event itself lasts abouttwenty seconds, but they see a nuts

(48:39):
and bolts steel thing manufactured somewhere notat going, you know, and they're
watching this, and nobody talked aboutit. They went in the room,
everybody went to bed. You know. Ray Fowler wrote an excellent book called
The Allagash Four. I'm good friendswith both. Oh, there's a great

(49:05):
author. I really enjoyed that book, and you know why. It had
so many commonalities with what Tolby andI. Yeah, even to the rural
well the whole thing of being outin wilderness area. Yeah. So we
agreed that we would not tell anyoneabout the UFO experience. We would just
say we woke up, we feltsick. We felt sick enough to come

(49:28):
home. We didn't care about ourtent. That's why we left everything there.
That was our story. Did youtalk to each other at all at
all, either driving back or inthe time after about what the implications of
this were or just go back toworking, were not discussing this and kind

(49:49):
of having a more guarded relationship.Well things changed. I don't know how
they knew, but FORCE knew thatwe saw something, and I know that
because it was interesting. When wegot back to the base, our wives
took us to the emergency room andthat was a little awkward because that's where

(50:13):
we work. These were our friends. We knew everyone there, of course,
and we were put in separate treatmentrooms. And the base commander,
hospital commander, who I knew,well, it was a good guy base
commander, Hospital commander, and someguy in civilian clothes I didn't recognize,
so I guess there were three ofthem came in and the hospital commander did

(50:36):
all the talking, and he said, Sergeant Lovely should have no contact with
sergeant to bias and name a way, shape or form. It's just like
you would have in a personal protectionorder. You're not to write to him,
contact him through third parties. You'renot to give him anything. He's
not to give you anything. Ifyou run into one another at the base
exchange, you're both to turn aroundand walk in the opposite direction and reats

(50:59):
off the stoop of things, andhe says, do you underhand? Do
you understand me? And I said, yes, sir, I do understand
you. I mean, I reallydidn't understand the reasoning behind it, but
I thought, you know, thingshave changed. I felt like my attitude
towards the guy had changed, andthat was really hard for me to process.

(51:19):
I would see him one more timedespite the order not to, because
we both lived in base housing.We both have lived in NCO housing on
the base, about two blocks fromone another. And we were coming home
from a growth of grocery store onbase and I asked my wife, I
said, swing by Toby's. Ijust want to run in and tell goodbye.
Tell him goodbye. They cut himorders for Japan at light speed.

(51:43):
So he and his wife were packingto go to Japan, and my wife
parked the car and she didn't wantme to do this. She said,
Terry, don't mess with these people. Yeah. And I didn't want anything
to do with the guy, butI felt like I owed him a hand
ache and nice working with you.Wish you well in Japan. Sure that
was the right thing to do.Yeah, So I ran up to the

(52:07):
door, same door I've been througha hundred times. I knocked three times
like I always did, open thedoor and said, hey, guys,
it's me, and just walked inand his wife they were packing, and
his wife said, you're not supposedto be here, and I said,
I know, I'm not here.I'm just here to tell you guys goodbye.
And Toby heard my exchange with hiswife and he walked around the corner

(52:30):
and he came up to me andwe managed to handshake, and it was
awkward. It wasn't what I wasexpecting. I was looking for closure.
I didn't get that. And hesaid, Terry, is was it really
happened, didn't it? And Isaid, yes, my brother really happened.

(52:52):
You're not losing your mind. Andhe said, but why us?
And I just almost lost it.I said, I don't, man,
I don't know. And I turnedaround and I ran out of the house.
And there was no peace in that. That wasn't That wasn't the closure
at all. That was just anxiety. And I think that again speaks to

(53:16):
the level of influence that these thingscan have over human beings. Yeah,
did you ever see Toby again orin any contact with him? More?
Anybody say I saw Toby and mymy wife and his wife were both friends.

(53:37):
So they carried on and changed afew letters, and then she was
back in the States. They separatedand then divorced. So and according to
her, Toby was having a greatdeal of trouble sleeping, met self medicating,
you know, with vodka to goto sleep. And I'm not I'm

(53:58):
not being critical or judgment here becausei had my own struggles and it's a
hard thing to process. It's thatepiphany that you know, we're not the
top of the food chain. We'renot the smartest guys in the universe.
That's what it comes down to,in great part, and our huberts,

(54:21):
all of the mythology, legends,what we long to believe about ourselves and
humanity, and all of the legends, myths, tales that we embrace or
reject. This is where it allcomes together. And you're not You no
longer have them the luxury of intellectuallydismissing something like this. It's Life's complicated,

(54:52):
it is, and it gets morecomplicated with events like this. Terry,
We're gonna take a few minutes breakright now, back with any thoughts
that you have, because this storycontinues in two books. My guess is
Terry Lovelace. This is Peter Robbins. The show is meanwhile here on Earth,
and we will be back in yeheymembers. The new kg rra dB

(55:35):
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(59:00):
And we are back with my guestTerry Lovelace. This is Peter Robbins.
The show is meanwhile here on earth, and we are not quite here on
earth with this account. We are, but we're not. Terry. Did
the story continue for you after that? And if so, how regarding this

(59:27):
original event from seventy seven, ordid just other events happen and you chronicle
them in the second book. Youknow, what happened was we were both
hospitalized because we were severely dehydrated,and they were they able to establish what

(59:50):
had happened to your skin. ThatNo, not that, or at least
not that. They told me.I think we had radiation burns myself,
but you know, they wouldn't tellus that. One of the doctors that
examined me. I had four doctorsexamining me. I knew very well.
I knew him well. He wasin the yard doc. And he's like,

(01:00:10):
Terry, what did you do?How did you get sunburned all over
on the bottom of your feet,I mean everywhere? He's like, were
you on a everywhere like a chickenor something? How did you do this?
And I said, Doc, Idon't know because I didn't know.
But they put us both in separaterooms, and they gave us private rooms,

(01:00:32):
which was kind of unheard on,unheard of for enlisted guy to be
you know, normally we would beput in a bed in an open ward,
and we were giving private rooms.And I think that that was all
part of keeping us away from oneanother, also keeping down any talk about

(01:00:52):
this, because if you're an award, somebody would say what happened to you,
and you're often running yes, yeah. And on the third night there,
I knew I was going to begoing home the next day. My
night nurse came in and was goingto give me an injection, and behind
her these two guys came into theroom and they were dressed in blue business

(01:01:15):
suits and one carried a briefcase.And there was a guy about fifty who
was kind of like in charge,and then a younger guy met her,
early thirties, and then they introducedthemselves and they pulled up badges. They

(01:01:37):
were with the Office of OSI,Office of Special Investigations for the Air Force,
and showed us their badges. Theyounger guy was a captain, the
older guy was a major. Andthe older one spoke up and told the
nurse, if that's going to makehim sedated, it's going to have to

(01:01:58):
wait. And she's like, well, doctor wants him to have it now
and like, no, we won'tbe that long. We want to talk
to Sergeant Lovelace with a clear headand shut the door in their way out,
and he was rude to her,and I wondered at the time,
what is up with that? AndI guess in retrospect, and you know,

(01:02:23):
having been a felony prosecutor for atime, I think it was The
idea was to intimidate me, andboy did they succeed because I was scared
to that. I had never hadan interaction with the police. And I
was interrogated, where did you boysgo? Park rangers found your little campsite

(01:02:46):
and they said, it looks likeyou're planning on going back, and I
said, sir, we haven't gonnaWe had zero plans of going back.
And then he he said to meand says, you've boys got a little
marijuana plot growing down there? Isthat what this is all about? And
I mean, that's kind of comicalnow, But I got to tell me

(01:03:06):
an active duty in nineteen seventy seven, that would have been a dishonorable discharge
and a trip to Leavenworth had wedone that. And then the thought crossed
my mind, what if I happenstance. Somebody is going marijuana down there,
so I'm thoroughly scared. And theykind of finished with this, asking me

(01:03:29):
a bunch of questions about our trip. And I never said anything about the
star. I you never said anythingabout funny things in the sky cut that
out. Didn't say that. Andhe had some semi leading questions that were
kind of danced around that area,but not fully so. Then that he
says, well, I think we'reabout done, and he says, we'll

(01:03:49):
talk to you again. Sorry,love place, and the young guy left
the room and shut the door behindit, and it was just me and
this OSI major. And this guyhad had an accent like I'm sure you've
probably talked to Calvin Parker. Hehad that. He had a Calvin Parker

(01:04:10):
accent. I don't know if that'sMississippi, Alabama, Louisiana. I kind
of lose track, but he hadthat very thick southern accent. Yeah,
And he my bed was near thehead of my bed was near the door,
and he had one hand against thedoor so no one could walk in
without him knowing about it. Andhe got down right next to my ear

(01:04:33):
and he said, son, Iknow, and you know YouTube knuckleheads stumbled
onto something when you're out there,and I didn't answer, and I didn't
know. I didn't know how toanswer. And he said, oh,
yeah, I think you know whatI'm talking about. And he said,

(01:04:54):
all I want to know is howmany pictures of it did you take?
And you know what I did.I blurted out, without thinking, I
blurted out, I never took asingle picture, sir, And he just
smiled because he just had an admissionfrom me that I saw what he saw.
I knew, he knew, weboth knew. So he was satisfied

(01:05:17):
with that answer and just walked out, went away. And six weeks later,
they took me down to OSI headquartersand I saw I was in an
interrogation room, a regular interrogation room, with these two agents plus this guy

(01:05:38):
that joined us, who was ahypnotherapist of some kind. He was in
a uniform, he had a blueshirt, he had on oak leaves,
but he didn't wear any ribbons,and he didn't have a name tag on
and that's very odd. And hewalked into the room and he had a
little like a shaving pouch under hisarm, and this guy carried himself.

(01:06:01):
He didn't carry himself like a militaryofficer. He carried himself like a like
a priest or a therapist or something. And he walks in. He puts
his little pouch down and he's like, Sergeant Lovelace, it's so nice to
finally meet you. And he shookmy hand and he said, Sergeant Lovelace,
just for today, would you callme Brad? That is my name?

(01:06:29):
And I thought that's kind of spooky, but I said yes, sir,
and he said no, no,no, don't you mean yes Brad?
And I said yes, Brad.And he said, and Terry,
just for purposes of today's little exercise, may I call you Terry? That
is your name? And I'm like, sure, Brad. And then we
started this conversation and we started talkingabout Saint Louis and he rattles off some

(01:06:55):
landmarks and some restaurants, and I'msitting back and I'm realized, I'm getting
comfortable with this guy. Interesting,and my defenses went up, and I
think he's sensed that my defenses wentup. And he said, with Terry,
you know you're going to be hypnotizedtoday. One of the things that

(01:07:16):
I signed when I was back atthe hospital with the major Hadney signed a
stack of papers was a consent tohypnotic regression and like with chemical enhancement or
something like that. The drug theygave me was called sodium penatal and they
gave it out like crazy back inthe seventies, late sixties, early seventies.

(01:07:39):
And he said, I'm just goingto give you a little shot in
your army. He said, thiswill help you relax and help you get
more fully under hypnosis and help yourecall details you know you might not be
able to remember. And I'm assumingyou'd never been hypnotized or been given any
kind of drug like this in yourlife. Up until this point, I

(01:08:01):
had never been hypnotized in my life. But you know, I had started
studying. There was an extension universityon base, and I had taken several
psyche classes, and like in psychone oh one, we covered hypnosis and
the fact that you know, youcouldn't hypnotize someone against their will, and

(01:08:24):
I knew that. So the drugI had big concerns about because when they
gave me the drug, it waslike bam, it was you know,
and I have lots of blank pointsin there that I can't recall, but
the hypnosis himself itself. He tookme down a progressive relaxation thing, or

(01:08:46):
you know, Terry, I wantyou to picture you're at the top of
the stairs and we're going to godown the basement and look around at some
things. I want you to takethat first step now, I feel relaxed,
calm and relax Take the second stepfeeling twice is relaxed, and on
and on. And I had thisthis smooth voice, like a radio announcer,
and in my mind's eye, I'mwalking up the stairs and I decided

(01:09:14):
I don't have to give him onehundred percent of my mind. And it
was kind of like a bifurcated thing, and half my mind I'm going through
Beatles songs and lyrics and rolling stones, and in the other half I'm trying
to respond to him. Did thatwork? I don't know. I never
felt like I was in a tranceor under hypnosis. Did I feel relaxed?

(01:09:41):
Oh yeah, the Sonian pentathol mademe relaxed. But Sonian penthol is
a short acting hypnotic, so itgoes away pretty quick. You know,
ten fifteen minutes, you're done.You're going to need some more. So
he asked me, you know youand told me when camping, didn't you

(01:10:01):
carry? And I said, yes, Brad, we did. And this
is after I'm I'm in a supposedlyin a trance and I'm taking this relaxed
position with my head kind of down. And he said, my, that
must have been fun, and Isaid, well, you know it was

(01:10:21):
our first time camping. It wasfun. And he said and you and
told me saw some funny lights inthe sky, didn't you, Terry?
And I said, without thinking,I said yes, Brad. And he
said, but they weren't funny lightsat all? Were they carry? Who
were they? And this came outof my mouth, and I couldn't believe

(01:10:43):
it came out of my mouth becauseI didn't formulate the sentence. I said,
they were the space people and thatwere scary for me. That was
because I felt like I said thatwithout consciously saying it. So the object
of the exercise was, as Ithought, he wanted to know, did

(01:11:08):
you tell both of these agents wereyou honest with them when you answered their
questions? And I said, yes, Brad, because we were. We
were careful, because you know,we did wake up feeling bad. Yes,
And they just wanted to come home, so I could say that,
in all honesty, you omitted certainthings, but you didn't lie about anything

(01:11:30):
that you said. Yes, yeah, but I think he knew, or
I'm sure he knew. And hesaid, Terry, this is really important.
Did you take any photographs when youwere down there? And I said
no, Brad, I left mycamera at home. I couldn't have taken
a picture if I'd wanted to.Now, interestingly, Toby had a camera

(01:11:53):
in his backpack, which was withinhis reach, and neither one of us
had the presence of mind to takea picture of this thing. And I
got a lot of emails from peoplesaying, boy, this is what I
saw. But by the time Igot my phone out of my pocket,
it was gone. Or I neverthought to take my phone out and take
a picture. You're having an experience, your first instinct is not necessarily to

(01:12:17):
record it for posterity. That's right, it's happening. Yes, So I
told him no, I don't haveany didn't take a single picture, and
you know, boy, I wishI had. Wouldn't that have been great?
You know, I could have soldit to National Inquiry or somebody,

(01:12:39):
and you wouldn't be talking to thelikes of me right now. Well,
I wouldn't be in Dallas. Imight be talking to you, but not
from There's nothing wrong with that,sou And he brought me back up and
out of the trans and the agentswere satisfied that I wasn't hiding anything.

(01:13:06):
And the major said, I thinkwe can close your file now. And
he said, just he said heknew I wasn't going to re enlist.
He said, just you know,because I was. I was a very
strict kid. I wasn't, youknow, in trouble in any kind of
way. Said you know, keepyour nose clean and get out of the

(01:13:27):
military and go to college. That'swhat you want to do. And I'm
like, yes, sir, Iwill um. And that was it,
So that part of it kind ofclosed to that end. That was That
was the end of that, andthey put me to work. I went
back to work in an emergency room. I was on day shift. Toby
was in Japan, and no one, no one ever asked me, hey,

(01:13:49):
how was your camping trip? Andeverybody in that hospital squadron knew I
was. We were going camping thatweekend, but nobody, nobody said one
word about it Wow. Interesting.So I finished in nineteen seventy nine and

(01:14:11):
got out of the military and finishedschool and went to law school. Once
you were back in the school anda civilian again, did there come a
time when you were aware that youwere taken or having a contact experience?
You know? My next contact wasn'tuntil nineteen eighty seven. And in nineteen

(01:14:32):
eighty seven, I had an episodeof lost time on a motorcycle ride.
WHOA, and I got up andmy wife, I've been married almost fifty
years. My wife had her oneand only experience that night, the evening

(01:14:53):
before I went on the motorcycle ride. She woke up. I wasn't in
bed, and she said something justfelt odd and at the end of the
bed, silhouetted against the window that'sbehind was a solhouette of a hooded figure
that she proceved this being feminine,And she said, this thing spoke to

(01:15:17):
me but never moved his lips.I heard her in my head with crystal
clarity, and she told me everything'sokay, go back to sleep, and
she said that's what I did.I went back to sleep. But she's
not had an experience since that.And then that following day, I went
onto my motorcycle ride, and Ithere there was some rural areas that I'd

(01:15:43):
like to go to. You know, Sunday morning, everybody's in church are
still asleep. I could get upand go for a ride and have the
pavement to myself. And I sawmotorcycles as recreation. I think, if
you're relying in this transportation, you'regoing to get hurt, but if you
just ride them recreationally. And Idon't anymore, but so I went on.

(01:16:08):
It was a beautiful day, itwas autumn. I really only rode
the motorcycle about three months out ofthe year. And I was on this
right and a course that I'd beenthrough many times. I knew where I
was, I knew where I wasgoing, and I never never took my
bike off a blacktop and on thegravel. I thought, number one,

(01:16:30):
it's dangerous, and number two,I don't want to chip my paint,
so I'll stay on the pavement,thank you very much. So I'm coming
up on a curve and I'm throttlingback from about eighty down to about sixty
five. It's where I was headed. And then suddenly it's like I blinked

(01:16:53):
and I'm on a gravel road duringthirty five miles an hour, and I
thought, what the hell, whyhow am I here? And you know,
I pulled the motorcycle over and putdown the kickstand and got off the
bike and looked around. And Iblamed it as being absent minded, just

(01:17:17):
being absorbed in thought. I thoughtI must have made a mistake. But
I ended up missing about two hours. God, and my wife, my
poor wife was just beside herself becauseshe had no idea, you know,
days before cell phones, you know, I could have been She was just

(01:17:39):
to the point where she was goingto call the state police and report me
as missing. When I rolled uphome, and I thought everything was fine.
So I roll up and my wife'sand hysterics and crying and and I
said, what are you talking about? Ten o'clock? Probably, and I
had on these other gloves. Icouldn't see my watch, but I heard

(01:18:00):
I went in the house, Iheard Nickelodeon downstairs on the TV. The
kids were why I knew it wasn'tten o'clock, and I was absolutely I
couldn't believe that it was new,but it was terry. Early on in
your marriage, did you think aboutI really want my wife who I'm going

(01:18:20):
to be sharing my life with,to know about this part of my life
and discuss it or not. Youknow, we discussed it from day one
when I got back from the campingtrip. I was hurt, um,
I was scared, and I sharedevery bit of that with her and and

(01:18:41):
everything that's happened since. And Icredit you know, her support for making
it through, you know, throughthese periods of tough time, because not
everyone comes out of this, uhyou know, not harmed some of it.
And I think it's adderal damage.I don't think these things intend to
hurt us. But I think we'remore fragile up here than they than they

(01:19:09):
know we are. And I thinkpeople can have encounters and walk away with
you know, PTSD or or something. I know that I have PTSD about
a couple of weird things. Ican't I can't walk across an open field
by myself. I won't walk acrossan open I'll walk a mile and a

(01:19:30):
half to go around. Yeah,but I won't cut across an open field.
I'll have a panic attack. Classicand of all the non threatening environments
in most people's minds, but thisis a pet. This is a very
strong pattern one of quite a numberof points for people whose lives intersect the

(01:19:56):
kind of experiences that your life hasbeen woven through with. I want to
ask you before we begin to gointo an entirely different subject at this point,
and I want to give shots ofboth of the Devil's then titles.

(01:20:24):
Again, you can read it foryourself. Compelling proof of alien visitation,
alleged government involvement, and an alienimplant, which are so much more common
than most people can even imagine.And again, congratulations, this is number
one of any book on Amazon inthis genre right now. Well, thank

(01:20:49):
you. That's nice to hear ifI appreciate that. How ironic, isn't
it. At the same time,you know you're doing a service for people
who've had these kind of experiences anddon't dare come forward or well only keep
it within a very tight circle.Being a public person in this area is

(01:21:15):
it can be very gratifying and itcan be exhausting telling the story. It
was very cathartic for me that itwas good. Yeah, And at a
certain point, you well, Ithink we're all interested in what comes next
after this shuffling along this mortal coil. For however, long we're here,

(01:21:40):
all of us in our own ways, and many of us have a profound
interest in this near death experience phenomena. It's really become more and more mainstream.
And did was it a particular interestto you before he met these two
physicians, these two women. Notat those you would think, with all

(01:22:08):
the things that have happened to me, you would think I'd have an interest
in it because it's another paranormal thing, you know, I've never been fascinated
by ghosts. I've always wanted togo on a ghost hunt. But no,
this wasn't a topic on my radar. And I think I mentioned I've
got over four thousand emails from peoplenow. But back when I was thinking

(01:22:31):
about writing this near death experience book, I was sitting on about twenty five
hundred and at that time I hadexactly four people, four people email me
who said, I'm a near deathexperiencer. Can you see the parallels between
a near death experience and being anabductee? And I had to honestly say,

(01:22:57):
no, I'm not sure we're wherewe're going with this. And the
point that they were trying to makeis it's all about consciousness, that's all
about an event that happens all betweenour years and the you know that that
debate whether consciousness is local being inmy head, in my brain, so

(01:23:21):
when I die it goes for good, or is consciousness non local, residing
outside the mind? And I wasblown away when I heard these people's story.
Can you take us back to thefirst time that you did hear the
story of these two women, becauseit caused a you turn in your life.

(01:23:47):
It did. The one that Irefer to as Susie, she asked
me not to use her real name, and I respect that. And she's
a physician, she's a pediatrician.She works for a major hospital in the
Midwest, a hospital that's founded undertenants of a certain religion, and she's

(01:24:12):
afraid that this would go against doctrineand it might not be popular. And
she's got a lot going on inher life, as a lot of people
do at age fifty, it seemslike. So we emailed back and forth,
and I'm like, I really wouldlike to write a book with you,
but i'd like you to co authorit with me, and she had

(01:24:35):
first agreed to that and then decided, no, I don't want to do
that. But she and I said, well, I can't write this without
your input. So we started talkingon a telephone and I asked her,
in a nutshell, tell me aboutyour near death experience. And she was

(01:24:59):
for teen years old. Her parentswere both physicians, and she lived in
this upscale community that had a niceswimming pool and she was there with her
friend Mary, and they were justgoing to swim. It was late late
August, and she goes, shesits down. She and her friend watched

(01:25:27):
people die for a while and shesays to her friend, I gotta pee,
I gotta go to the bathroom.I'll be right back. So she
has her headphones on and her sonywalkman in her hand and her sunglasses on.
So she's concerned. She wants tolook good. And then you know,
she's checking out other people and thethings that a fourteen year old girl

(01:25:48):
would do. And she's walking rightat the edge of the deep end of
the pool. And this girl thatdidn't that she didn't get along with.
They kind of had a beef andI think it was racially motivated, but
didn't like her, and they hadbeen at odds since grade school. And

(01:26:10):
this girl rushed up to her andwith her open palm hit her on the
side of the arm and shoved her, and she had she hadn't been in
the pool yet that day, sothe water felt ice coal and she was
just she wasn't prepared for that,and somehow she opened her mouth and gasped

(01:26:31):
and inhaled a bunch of water.But you know, you hear people that
have events like this, they talkabout how things go in slow motion.
That's exactly what she said. Shesaid, this happened, time slowed down,
and she remembers being in mid air. And the title of this book,

(01:26:54):
and this is going to sound madeup, but I tell you it's
the truth. She was listening toTom Petty in a Heartbreakers song free fall
or free Falling? How crazy isthat? WHOA? So she did?

(01:27:15):
She said, she was in thisterrible panic and in a lot of pain,
and she didn't even know which waywas up, having trouble getting oriented,
and she had this terrible panic,like I'm going to die. And
she heard a feminine voice in herhead to say, just let go,
Susie, and she thought, likehell, and then she did, and

(01:27:42):
she just let go. And themoment she did, she popped out of
her body and was an advantage pointabove the pool and could see everything that
was going on. And she watchedher body being dragged out of the pool
and on to the cement and lifeguard, and there happened to be a medical
doctor there with his kids at theswimming pool, so there was a medical

(01:28:05):
doctor there to give her CPR,did the chess compressions, and the other
the lifeguard was doing the mouth tomouth and the ambulance was coming. And
she watched all of this and almostwith disinterest. It wasn't you know,

(01:28:25):
you would think, oh my god, I'm gonna die. No, she
said, that wasn't that wasn't aconcern whatsoever. She was interested in what's
going on, but not concerned.She said, I knew I was going
to be okay. And her shegrew up in a family that they were

(01:28:45):
practicing Buddhists, and she would goto a temple every now and then.
But she wasn't a Buddhism. Wasn'tthat religious anchor. You know that Christianity
is for a lot of other peoplein the United States. But she had
some grounding. She felt grounded inthis, and she on top of the

(01:29:11):
ambulance, there was a white ambulance. On top of the ambulance, there
was a Arabic numeral seven about sixfoot tall, painted in red paint on
this white ambulance on the very top. Now, the ambulance is ten foot
tall. You're not going to seeit unless you're above it. And she
got transported to the hospital and they'verevived her at the hospital with they shocked

(01:29:40):
her three times with the defibrillator andher heart started. Now she was sick.
She had pneumonia from inhaling all thatnasty pool water, and she wanted
to kind of downplay that because itwas just that was a bad time.

(01:30:00):
But after she saw the ambulance pullaway, she didn't go through a tunnel
of light, but she went througha dark space and saw a pinpoint of
light. And she said, Ifelt compelled to go to the pinpoint of
light. And she said, thecloser I got, the bigger it guy.

(01:30:20):
She said that it radiated warmth andcomfort and love and everything everything you
can think of as good was inthis light. And the white light finally
engulfed her and she found herself ina semi tropical setting and there was there

(01:30:45):
was grass, everything was manicured,beautiful, flowers. She said, it
was just an absolutely gorgeous place.And she said, some things that are
just hard for us to process,never having had the experience, you know.
She said, she felt a onenesswith the plants and other living things.

(01:31:06):
And she um, she said,there was bright sunlight, but there
was no sun. The lights justradiated out of the out of the sky.
And then she notices there is aBuddhist monk in red robes, and

(01:31:28):
there's a coy pod there, youknow, a fish in it, and
there's a bench there, and sheand this monk walk over and sit down
and they have a long discussion.Not seemed to her like she was there,
what would have had there been days. Her father was murdered when she

(01:31:51):
was six years old. This wasabout the time that ATMs became a thing,
and he was coming home from works, stopped at the ATM and was
robbed and shot. So she andher father were very close, and there
was a line of like fog,a line of separation, and she said,

(01:32:16):
I knew that if I went tothe other side of that fog,
I wouldn't be able to come back. And out of the fog stepped her
dad and she got she got veryemotional on the phone. She said,
I cried. I was just soglad to see him, and she said,
we didn't have physical bodies, butwe embraced. And she said that

(01:32:40):
her dad looked younger and looked betterthan he'd ever looked before. He was
dressed as he liked on the weekends, in the golf attire, with this
golf shoes she recognized from being alittle her own. I thought it was
an odd comment. She said,he even smelt like my daddy, and

(01:33:01):
I thought, wow, that's that'spretty strong. And you know, they
exchanged I love yous and he saidto her, but Susie, you have
to go back, and she said, I don't want to. I want
to stay here. None of thesefour people that had this experience were eager

(01:33:21):
at all to go back. Theywanted to stay right where they were,
even though they were dead. Theywanted to stay there. So the monk
Daddy steps back into the fog,and the monk and her start talking,
and she said that the monk answeredall of her questions and then told her,

(01:33:43):
but you know, you won't remembermost of this when you get back.
But he said you have to goback because you have more work to
do, and he said, that'sthe reason we're here. We're here to
do work. And he showed hermental imagery of two babies, and she
said, he said, you're goingto have two children, and if you

(01:34:06):
don't go back, you won't andthat that convinced her that she wanted to
go back. She would go backvoluntarily. And then she there was a
lot of other things that happened thatthat's that's the jest of it. And
she popped back into her body,and she was actually started. She was

(01:34:30):
in the emergency room above her body, looking down, and she says she
was terrified of going back in herbody because her body was broken and it
looked she looked terrible. It didn'tlook like a place she wanted to be.
But in an instant she was suckedin through the top of her head
and immediately she took a gasp ofair and she was back. Terry Um,

(01:34:58):
it's such a tangent, and it'sit is small minded on a certain
level, and the great cosmic schemeof things. Did there ever come a
time when the girl that pushed herin and acknowledge this, or she just
disappears from the picture. It's nota crucial detail. I'm just curious.
That's a good question. No,but she was arrested and prosecuted. She

(01:35:23):
was They went to the same highschool. But when she went back to
school at the end of the summer, Melinda wasn't there. So she went
to another school. And I askedher. I said, surely you've seen
her, you know, the supermarketor something. She said, yeah,
I've seen her once or twice atthe ball she said, we just ignore
one another. Sure, jumping inas devil's advocate as opposed to Devil's den

(01:35:50):
And I do this with the utmostrespect, of course, if this is
a subject that you really have studieddeeply, that you have a and innate
sense of as much as anyone thathas never had the experience, do you
feel there's a possibility when we door in a life and death situation and

(01:36:15):
we're kind of caught between those twoworlds bio energetically or biologically or physically because
of you know, what's happened,that this is a scenario driven by the
mind's desire, based on every myth, religious idea, legend, lore,
trusted tradition that we hope is trueand that we simply inform ourselves of it

(01:36:41):
and fill ourselves with goodness as weare about to die, as opposed to
my gosh, this is all reallyhappening. You know. I went down
that road because I had the fearthat maybe none of this is real.
You know, maybe all of thisis a construct in my mind. It
could be. And you know,it couldn't have been drugs for Susie,

(01:37:05):
because they should. They hadn't givenher any drugs. I did a lot
of reading, and I watched aguy named Sam Parnia paar Nia who's a
mv PhD. And he is inresuscitative measure medicine. He works in medicine

(01:37:25):
that deals with bringing people back.And he said, these are not his
words, are these experience of experiencesof death? You know to be They're
not from hallucinations, delusions, illusions, dreams are CPR induced consciousness. These

(01:37:46):
lucid experiences cannot be a trick ofa disordered or dying brain, but rather
a unique human experiences that emerges atdeath. Yeah, and you know they've
been several really well known. Well, they're well known now physicians. There's

(01:38:08):
one I didn't know about. Hisname is even Alexander, and he was
a neurosurgeon who taught neurosurgery at Harvard, So we're talking about a smart guy
in his experience. He has abook out. I can't think of the

(01:38:31):
name of it, but it's anexcellent book. He picked up a bug
because you meningitis. It was itwas a bug that he picked up.
Wasn't sure where swimming, who knows, but he picked up this bug that

(01:38:53):
can get past the brain's barrier andaffect the brain. So he had this
incredibly bad case of meningitis and theygave him like a two percent chance of
living. It's usually a killer,and he was on life support and the
family was discussing taking him off lifesupport because everyone had given up. But

(01:39:20):
in the meanwhile, he told methat he was conscious that he was in
a dark place, floating. Hedidn't feel like he had a physical body,
and it was just darkness all aroundhim, and he had the thought
is this is this going to beeternity for me? Or is this just

(01:39:42):
temporary? Or And then just likeSusie, there was the pinpoint of light
and he had an amazing experience.But I wanted to say real quick when
he when he had this experience.He was an adopted child, so he

(01:40:03):
didn't know his birth family or hissiblings. When he was on the other
side, he met a pretty blondewoman and he knew that they were related
somehow. When he recovered from this, he wanted to meet for the first

(01:40:30):
time. He wanted to meet hisbirth parents, so he made arrangements and
got that done. So they madethey went over there. He and his
wife went over there for dinner,and of course they had to pull out
all all the family albums, andhe saw her before they even got into
the family albums. Her picture wason the wall and he said, that's
the girl. That's the girl thatI met on the other side. And

(01:40:55):
the mother said, that's your sister. She died four years ago. That's
pretty amazing stuff. That's very amazingstuff. If there weren't such a a

(01:41:15):
well developed, well researched swear onyour life database of such experiences that continue
to grow people being more and morepublic about them. I wonder if you
can talk a bit about the otherphysician, the other woman who's experience you

(01:41:40):
documented, who was technically without heartbeatfor a considerably longer time. Well,
this woman, I've referred to asVirginia. And she's a radiologist and she's
in the New York area, Soup were you? And she was nineteen

(01:42:03):
years old, was just starting undergradin microbiology chemistry because she wanted to be
a physician. And she was inthe car. She was in the front
passenger seat and they had a mutualfriend who was driving the car, and

(01:42:24):
her boyfriend was in the backseat andthey'd been to a party and they'd had
some drinks and they didn't he didn'twant to drive. She said she had
no more than one or two andswears that she was sobering, and I
believe her. They were in theBMW and got into some kind of crossover

(01:42:45):
accident head on, and she hasno memory of the crash whatsoever. Good,
but it's like the crash happens.She opened her eyes, she knew
something terrible had happened, and shehad no pain, no physical pain,
and the deflated airbag was on herchest and she was kind of stotched forward,

(01:43:12):
and she suffered horrific injuries. Shehad shattered pelvis, a shattered femur,
broken ribs, concussion. You know, she was really had horrific injuries
and she her boyfriend and the driverrose up, and she said, we

(01:43:35):
were above the scene, looking down, all three of them, all three
of them, and they could see. I said, well, you know,
how's the roof of the car.How are you going to see inside
the car? She says, Idon't know, but we could see inside
the car. We could see ourselves. And she said that they they weren't

(01:43:59):
in I need to stress whatsoever.That this felt like a normal thing to
do, and I thought it wasodd. She said, I felt like
I'd been on this journey once before, maybe twice. And she said that
they all held hands, three ofthem held hands, and were rising up
through this blackness. They didn't getto the point of light yet. But

(01:44:27):
she was told she had to goback. So her friends said goodbye and
expressed their love for her, andthe next thing she knew, she was
in this shattered body in a lotof pain. And they came and the
MT guys were there and took herout and took her to the hospital.

(01:44:48):
And she survived all those injuries,and they and they didn't. But she
says, and now she didn't havethe kind of in depth in the like
Susie had. But it was absolutelya transformative event for her life. And

(01:45:10):
for instance, she said that,you know, she's kind of a she
called herself a classic rock kind ofgirl. She's in her early sixties.
She never had an interest in classicalmusic. When she got back, she
developed an interest in the Spanish guitarand took classes, and she said it

(01:45:35):
was a breeze. She could playit like you know, it was work,
but it wasn't. It wasn't whatshe was expecting, and she made
beautiful music still plays to this day. And this musical ability was something new,
and she calls it. She says, it's a gift. It's one
of the gifts that they gave me. What's another gift? Psychic ability?

(01:46:00):
Ability to communicate with the dead.Sometimes all four people talk about there are
three women in one man. Thegentleman in the group doesn't like to be
called a psychic, doesn't like theword psychic, but he says that his

(01:46:20):
intuition is through the roof, thatsometimes he'll he'll make a guess about something
or have a feeling, and it'she's right most of the time. But
he does say that in his event, he was actually on an operating table
getting having heart surgery and he codedand his heart stopped. So but he

(01:46:45):
was in good hands. They youknow, got his heart restarted. And
but he had this whole experience thatwas in depth looking down on the r
oh, yeah, that he saw. He saw that he went through what
he called a tunnel, which wasdifferent from Susie or Virginia. Traveled in

(01:47:06):
a tunnel and found himself in ain a meadow with beautiful flowers and trees,
and he met a grandparent, butnot not the grandparents that he knew
as a kid. He met agreat grandparent he had never met was there

(01:47:28):
to welcome him. And one ofthe first things he did when he got
out of the hospital went back homewas I want to I want to see
the pictures I want to see.And sure enough, that was a guy
and he said, there's not athoubt in my mind that he was the
one that welcomed me. And likethe others, he was told, you're

(01:47:49):
not done yet, you got togo back. So that's kind of an
interesting revelation. We have a purposehere. You spent a good part of
your career as a trial lawyer.Yes, you're a pragmatist, you're a

(01:48:11):
realist, you're a grounded person inthe three dimensional world. You trained in
the law about as nuts and boltsand real world, a world as we
can enter into what has been theimpact on your life of completely separate from

(01:48:36):
the other intelligence contacts, and wecan talk a bit about what connects these
things even in the abstract. What'sbeen the impact on you from doing this
work and knowing as well as anyof us can know that accounts like those
from Virginia and Susie and the Gentlemen, which are of course just you know,

(01:49:03):
scratching the service of such accounts bycredible people, what's been the impact
on your life? You know,it was a pretty big impact. I
gotta say it was a pretty bigrevelation for me. I went to when
doctor Raymond Moody wrote his book LifeAfter Life in nineteen seventy three, which

(01:49:26):
Susie insisted that I read before Itackled this book, and he co founded
an organization called ions, the Institutefor Their Desk Studies. It's i a
NDS dot org and they have BazilianYouTube's two videos and they have all kinds

(01:49:51):
of credible people who've had this experienceand every facet of it and they tell
their stories. And I went andI and then there's darth near death experience
in that's uh, doctor Jeffrey longsUm, which I could think about.

(01:50:14):
It's in the again for the nameof it in birth is the name is
how it's pronounced, and it iscollection of stories like five thousand of them.
And I read a few hundred peoplethat had near death experiences. And
I looked at I read all theseand came away with the feeling that,

(01:50:41):
you know, these people in China, in Japan, in South Africa,
in Paris, they're all having thesame event, you know. And some
people will see Jesus, some peoplewill see Great Grandma, some people will
see an all knowing orb of light. But all of them have this experience,

(01:51:03):
and all of them, without failsay that it has been a profoundly
transformative event in their life. Itchanged the way they look at the world,
new universe. You know, asyou're speaking, I'm substituting certain words
in my mind and smiling to myselfof seeing a light in the sky,

(01:51:27):
watching this kind of movement, havingthis presence in my bedroom. At a
certain point, it's almost like thereare aspects that are interchangeable about these two
extraordinarily different, non standard human experiences. And if you have some contact with

(01:51:49):
or privy to both, or studyone, may take you into the other.
We're really we're having our own missingtime experience. You're coming into the
end? Are two hours right now? Thought? And will you first of
all, before I say anything,will you come back and join us again?
I sure will, I sure will. And any special thoughts you'd like

(01:52:11):
to close on, just that Iknow that there are people out there that
are very skeptical, and that's ahealthy thing, and I don't discourage that.
And I want to be clear,I'm not trying to convince anyone of
anything. I'm just here to tellyou my story, UM, And you're
welcome to accept it or not.It's okay, but do a little research.

(01:52:36):
There's there's so much more to thisworld than we know that we can
see, feel, touch, Verytrue, um. And it continues on.
I'm thinking as we close, ofthe six blind men and the elephant

(01:52:57):
and one hold the leg. Oneis talking about the ear, the others
describing the elephant as defined by thetusk. The tail really is everything the
body. Yes, sometimes rise abovethe room and look down. I don't
think at our perspective, Terry Lovelace, It's been a real pleasure. I
look forward to our next get togetherand this Peter Robbins, the show is

(01:53:21):
Meanwhile, here on earth, staywell, fight for what you believe in,
and be kind to each other whenpossible. See you next week.
Good good night,