Occult Symbolism Of Becoming The Intermediary Of Heaven & Earth w/ Symbolic Studies

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
You've created everything, what's put a powerful being you are.
You did these things, but now you're in a human body.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
You forget the power you have.

Speaker 3 (00:14):
What you do is what the whole universe is doing
at the place you call here, and now you are
something the whole universe is doing in the same way
that a way is something that the whole ocean is doing.

Speaker 4 (00:32):
You're doing doing what.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
Welcome to metimistics where you don't know what you don't know.
My name's Jonathan, I'm Sean, and today we have a
very very fascinating guest. Welcome to the show, Mario of
Symbolic Studies.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
Hey, hey, thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
Man, hey man, we are just so fascinated by all
of your work and all of your research. I mean
the way that you're able to break down everything symbolically
and you know, almost looking at it through I mean
actually probably really looking at it through like an occult lens,

(01:15):
which that's right up our alley.

Speaker 5 (01:17):
Baby.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
We want to know all of the symbolism and really
try and understand it. And you know, this is something
that like it bothers me when people are like, oh yeah,
those people fifteen hundred two thousand years ago, three thousand
years ago, they were just dumber or.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
It's like, man, I firmly believe that like humanity is
devolving from that.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Right, Oh yeah, exactly.

Speaker 6 (01:43):
No, I'm of the same opinion, and there's a lot
of good reason to believe that that's the case. And
my type of symbolism, like the school I kind of
found myself involved in. Some people referred to it as
traditionalism or perennialism, and they give a law of credit
to you know, older civilizations and what they were interested

(02:04):
in and how they saw things and sort of how
they live their life and all that kind of stuff.
So a lot of my time is trying to understand
sort of the old way of doing things because I'm
of the same mindset basically.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
Oh yeah, dude, you know, we actually have we have
a couple of people that are pretty heavily involved into
the occult as. Guests come on the show every so often,
whether it be witches or magicians, or wizards or sorcerers
or I mean just fascinated by those kind of conversations,
and what they all say is is that you if
you're doing some kind of magic or a spell or

(02:38):
an incantation or anything like that. You want to make
sure you get to know who it is that you're
you know, basically talking to or trying to have a
conversation with on the other side, because the more information
that you have about them, maybe it helps carry out
the spell or you know, or whatever a little bit easier.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and you don't really.

Speaker 6 (03:02):
I mean, one of the things I've heard so many
times is you think you're talking to something and then
it ends up being something else and that they've been
lying to you or deceiving you, or whatever you.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
Want to say.

Speaker 6 (03:12):
So that's not so much my world personally on a
personal experience kind of level, but I've read a lot
about all that kind of stuff for sure.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
Man, I would love to know, you know, what are
your experiences that led you to this in the first place,
if you don't mind me asking, because oh no, of course.
I feel like most people get to you know, they
start looking into this kind of stuff whenever they have
some like mind blowing experience. Usually I think it's from
the use of psychedelics, which was kind of our introduction

(03:42):
to it, or you know, maybe it was just some
movies that you were watching when you were grown up.
Maybe I don't know what was your experience.

Speaker 6 (03:51):
Yeah, I mean it, psychedelics did play a part, if
I'm being honest with you, for sure, because it really
opened me up to a whole new level of awareness.
And that that's when I really started getting into conspiratorial information,
alternative information, you know, all that kind of stuff, and
so I really got kind of far out with that.
But basically, I've been an artist my whole entire life,

(04:13):
and so I've always been very visual and I used
to illustrate a lot, and I've always just paid attention
to things on a visual level. And so I got
into graphic design when i was a teenager, and so
I've been doing design work ever since then. So I'm
in my early forties now, been doing that since, like
I was like fifteen or sixteen years old. I started

(04:35):
off doing design work for my local punk and hardcore
and metal scene. That was sort of my thing, and
so I was doing a lot of flyers and T
shirts and album covers and whatnot. Eventually I started doing
more corporate work and started finding clients that had real
businesses and stuff. And over the years, I've worked with
a ton of huge corporations now and lots of small

(04:57):
businesses and mom and pop shops. So I I've had
the experience of being able to do design work for
a whole spectrum of different clients. And over time I
became very interested in film as well. So I went
to film school for a few years, got really interested
in a few directors and a few classic movies that

(05:18):
really inspired me to want to pursue filmmaking. And over
the years, at some point I actually came across a
symbolic dictionary. This was probably in like two thousand and eight,
and I didn't realize that you can actually make a
study of symbolism, and so I bought this book at
a bookstore, and I was reading about the symbolism of
you know, the different animals that exist, and colors and

(05:40):
numbers and everything else, different sigils and glyphs and whatnot
that I had seen my whole entire life. And I
realized that actually studying this was making me a better designer.
And so it was helping inform my designs and kind
of come up with new ideas that kind of fit
with you know, the brand or whatever whoever I was
working with. And at a certain point I just became

(06:01):
really interested in buying more books on symbolism, and so
now I have a really good library. I actually think
that that's one of the things that kind of makes
me a little unique in this space, is that most
of the information I'm getting from books. And I found
over the years too that a lot of the older
books have better information kind of speaking to what you're saying,
and so a lot of the newer books there's something

(06:24):
to be desired there, but a lot of the older
books have a lot of really good content. And then
I started finding the symbologists that were really really doing
like amazing work, and so I just kept on pursuing it,
and at some point I found the tarot, and really
the tarot is what completely opened me up to everything else,
so astrology, you know, kind of more esoteric stuff, occultism,

(06:49):
different parts of mythology and numerology and whatnot. And so
once I found the tarot, and once I took that
seriously and started reading about the tarot and collecting books
on that, I'm a big reader, or it was off
to the races pretty much, and then I felt like
I really needed to create a platform for me to
kind of get some of this stuff off my chest
because I realized that, especially in today's world, you can

(07:13):
over consume, and if you're just consuming but not putting
anything out, I think that can lead to an imbalance.
And so I felt like I needed to sort of
balance the scales in a way, and symbolic studies was
sort of my way of doing that.

Speaker 7 (07:25):
I want to say, first of all, like, good on
you man for being able to make a business and
really do what you love, like you're creating stuff you're
I feel like you would already be creating stuff even
if you weren't making money off of it, and so
I think that that's really awesome that you were able
to find that that area of business for yourself.

Speaker 5 (07:44):
And I wanted to ask you a question.

Speaker 7 (07:47):
Now that you've got a very in depth understanding of
all of the symbols and symbolism and the meaning and
all of this, do you find it I don't want
to say difficult, but do you find it? I don't
know how this to say that, as far as just
walking around in the world and like not noticing every
everything around you that's supposed to be hidden, but you

(08:08):
kind of see it so blatantly.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
Like rowdy Roddy Piper and they live yeah, yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
Yeah, consume, consume, right, yeah, no exactly. You know that
is funny.

Speaker 6 (08:18):
I'll say that just going out and about and seeing
billboards and magazine covers and you know, just different ads
and everything, I do have another awareness of things. I
think that's beyond what most people. Obviously, most people don't
get into symbolism, so they're not going to see certain things,
let alone get into occultism or esoteric studies or anything

(08:39):
like that. So I do pick up a lot of information.
But one of the things I'll say that frustrates me
the most is being online and hearing people's take on symbolism.
And so it's one of these interesting things where of
course everyone should have an opinion and should have their
own perspective, but I see a lot of really bad

(09:00):
takes regarding symbolism, especially when it comes to the world
stage and when it comes to kind of conspiratorial type
things and things that are kind of happening out there.
I've tried to get into fundamental symbolism, and in fact,
one of my favorite books ever just a quick shout
out for anyone who wants to really deepen their awareness

(09:21):
of Symbolism Fundamental Symbols by this guy named renegu went On.
I think he's one of the best symbologists of the
modern world basically, and so that's one of my top
recommended books for anybody. And you know, so I've gotten
interested in like fundamental symbols. What's the meaning of the
square or the dot or the circle, the triangle, the pyramid,
the column, you know, really basic sorts of things. And

(09:44):
because I have that, it is a little frustrating kind
of seeing people's takes on things online when they don't
have that sort of background or whatever. But you know,
I kind of just accept it as one of those
things where I feel blessed that I kind of found
this in my life, and I feel blessed that I
was able to pursue this and kind of it fits

(10:05):
really well with design, you know, so I've become a
much better designer having gone down this road or whatever.
But usually when I'm kind of seeing things, you know,
for myself and stuff, I actually just am able to
appreciate sort of you know, just multiple layers of what
they're trying to convey in everything else. And it's actually
really surprising too what you do see out there when

(10:26):
you're really symbolically literate, it's really wild.

Speaker 2 (10:29):
You know.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
That's awesome, dude, And I don't know if you would
be if you're into this kind of stuff, But do
you ever feel like, do you ever find yourself applying
any kind of symbolism to your life? Maybe, like do
you believe that it holds any kind of symbolic power
inside of the mind to be able to help you
manifest this or to help you with that.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
Right, that's a great question.

Speaker 6 (10:55):
You know, I'm up two minds with that, because on
one level, I really I know some people who are
incredibly intuitive and they have a great head on their shoulders,
and they even have like really profound spiritual insights. But
they don't read books and they're not kind of doing
this sort of journey and they're just kind of observing things.

(11:16):
And that's kind of one of the interesting things about symbolism.
You can actually become more proficient in your symbolic awareness
just by paying attention to things. You know, you don't
need to do anything too wild or too crazy or
do like too much research. Just contemplate, contemplate and think,
like why would it make sense that a bird represents this?

(11:36):
Or that, or the color green represents this or that.
It's like, just pay attention to the world around you.
It's amazing the things you'll sort of pick up. But
you know, I would say that probably the most practical
thing for me has been my artwork and my design
work for clients. That's a real sort of tangible kind
of thing that I have, you know, in my toolkit,

(11:57):
is my symbolic awareness of things as far as maybe
like manifestation or things like that. I see that a
lot of the things now that I know a lot
of this symbolism, you know, I can kind of admit
that a lot of it is actually like an intellectual pursuit.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
You know.

Speaker 6 (12:12):
It's like a very cerebral sort of thing, and so
I think it kind of works with me more on
that level than like anything else. Maybe actually a better
answer would be it's helped me avoid a lot of things,
to be honest with you, right, you know, where I
kind of see certain groups doing this or that, saying
this or that or whatever, and little red flags kind

(12:33):
of go off and I'm like, oh, you know, actually
this is not for me, and I know it's not
for me, and so it's helped me sort of curate
things like that in.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
My life, you know, I would say, for sure, yeah.

Speaker 7 (12:45):
Well that's like some symbolic street smarts for you know,
you're not fooled by anything.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
Well, and I imagine it, that's a huge part of it.

Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yeah, I imagine. You know, you're able to see all
the symbolism and almost apply it to just about every
form of spirituality in religion out there and kind of
compare and contrast and see, you know, like, are they
talking about the same thing over here? Is this a
story pulled from another story, from a more ancient story
and it's all just encoded in symbolism like that.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
Exactly exactly right. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (13:16):
So my personal opinion, I never thought that I would
follow a school of thought or a kind of a
crowd or a group of people that had like an
identity of any kind.

Speaker 2 (13:27):
I've always been more like a lone wolf sort of guy.
But the best.

Speaker 6 (13:32):
Symbologists, just to like cut to the chase, in my opinion,
in the modern world are people who come from the
traditionalist camp. So they're called traditionalists or perennialists. And Renegue
went on, the guy who I mentioned, he's kind of
like the Godfather for a lot of these guys, and
their basic sort of way of looking at everything is
that their opinion is that there was one tradition that

(13:54):
preceded all other traditions, and all traditions basically came from
that original tradition. So it's not unlike a world tree
where you have many branches, many leaves. You know, you
have roots and a whole system down there, but it's
all unified by that trunk, right, so that there's a
unifying sort of principle, or there's a unifying force, and

(14:15):
that is basically the basis that's kind of the core
of how they look at everything. And this actually extends
over to their metaphysics as well, and how they kind
of their metaphysical framework and how they see things working
on that level. So, you know, basically, one of the
things that I've learned is that symbolism is really the

(14:38):
language of metaphysics. That's really why it's important is because
it's encoding metaphysical truths. And it's been found over the
years that it's easier to encode something, you know, in
a glyph or a symbol or a sigil or something
like that, then it would be to even like write
anything about it. So literally, symbolism is the bridge to

(15:01):
metaphysics and that's why it's so significant. And so once
I found that out too, then a lot of other
things started kind of unfolding for me, where I realized
now like the true power of symbolism and why it's
it's so significant around the world, and kind of like
what you're saying, why so many traditions or cultures have
overlapping themes, you know, between everything, And so I feel

(15:25):
like now because I have like a fundamental sort of
understanding of things, It's like I see stuff from all
over the world that you know, relates to each other basically,
and it's probably because of this original tradition that there
was one tradition that preceded all others.

Speaker 1 (15:40):
What do you think that is that one tradition astrology?
Was that the original tradition or was there even a
tradition that you know preceded that.

Speaker 6 (15:49):
Yeah, it actually, there's there's a whole tradition. There's astrology. Actually,
modern day astrology is not exactly what people think think
it is. And I've done a lot of work on
this actually, and if people are interested in my more
like long form content, I have a ton of stuff
on my YouTube. So if they check out my Instagram

(16:11):
or TikTok or Twitter, they're going to see shorter things.
But I've done a ton of presentations that are like,
you know, an hour or two hour long, two hours long,
and basically, you know, there's a whole tradition. This early
tradition can best be defined as some people refer to
this as the primorial tradition. You can refer to it
as the polar tradition, or even I would say you

(16:32):
could call it the Northern tradition as well. And so
basically the best way to describe it, in my opinion,
is actually how they view time and how they viewed
time in the heavens, So how they viewed their skyclock,
what was their primary skyclock. In today's world, it is astrology,
and so is what are the signs of the zodiac. Basically,

(16:53):
you have twelve signs along the ecliptic. That's the path
of the sun, and so people are paying attention to
where the sun is and what constellation is behind the sun,
and so this is the basis of modern day astrology.
It's all solar, basically, is one way of putting it. Now,
it took me years to finally wrap my head around
this and sort of like truly unpack it. But there

(17:16):
is a whole time before solar symbolism, essentially, there's a
whole time before solar worship and the original skyclock in
this primordial polar tradition, it was actually the fixed stars.
And so you know, we have all of these fixed
stars that revolve around a central star. They revolve around

(17:36):
the pole star or the north star, and this excludes
the wandering stars, which would be the planets, and so
all of the signs of the zodiac they all go
around this central point of pivot, this north star. And
ancient people's their primary skyclock was actually looking at the
fixed stars going around this central point of pivot, and

(17:58):
they were actually really supremely focused on the northern sky,
so basically the middle of the wheel of heaven basically.
And so there's two main constellations there that you'll see,
and it's URSA Major and ursa Minor, and this is
the Big Dipper and the Little Dipper. The Big Dipper
is so dense with information it'll blow your mind, which

(18:21):
to me, I find this to still be mind blowing.
The novelty has not worn off, because most people can
see the Big Dipper when they're children. It's like one
of the main constellations, especially if you live in the
northern hemisphere, because it's referred to they're called circumpolar constellations
because if you're northern enough, they actually don't dip below

(18:42):
the horizon line. So for a lot of people, they
were constantly there, you know, night after night after night
after night, year after year after year, the path of
the sun, the zodiac signs. That's not the case, they
dip below the horizon line. So there's whole parts of
the year where you go outside and you look at
the signs of the zodiac and you're not going to
see certain signs for whole parts of the year, right,

(19:03):
And so their main skyclock was the North Star and
the constellations that surrounded it, basically, and this is a
whole different framework, and the reason being is because the
North Star is so significant and important. I'm not sure
if you guys have ever gotten into anything related to
the North Star.

Speaker 1 (19:22):
No, actually, I mean, so you're saying that in the
more ancient times it was star systems based upon the
North Star rather than based upon the Sun.

Speaker 6 (19:34):
Essentially, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Basically, and because URSA Major
and Minor are so close to the North Star, they
kind of acted as very close companions pretty much, and
that the northern sky was of supreme importance for these people.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
And so there's endless like rituals.

Speaker 6 (19:53):
And storylines and myths and everything else that relate to
all of this stuff.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
So this was pre.

Speaker 6 (20:01):
This is basically pre zodiac, This is pre austrology modern
day astrology. That the solar worship basically wasn't the premiere,
primary sort of focus. It wasn't the focal point, it
wasn't the main star in the heavens. It was actually
the North Star. And so people have referred to this
great shift as a polar to solar shift, and so

(20:22):
there's actually deities that relate more to this symbolism, this
early symbolism, this primordial symbolism that were referred to as
like polar gods and polar deities. I started getting into
this information, just a little bit of background. I started
getting into this information, and I actually have a friend
who's probably like twenty or thirty years older than me,

(20:44):
and he got into symbolism way before I did.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
And so as I was going through my symbolic journey.

Speaker 6 (20:51):
I would always kind of, you know, ask him questions
and see what he thought about certain things, and see
what books he had read about certain subjects and whatnot.
And I kept on going on about this Northern Polar stuff,
and I'm like, man, I'm like, there's so much information.
There's a ton of occult information about the North Star
as well, and black magical information. It's a whole entire thing.

(21:11):
It's a big, big weave. In fact, I have a
pdf on my website, Symbolic Studies dot com where you
can download it, and I give you basically twenty seven
books on polar symbolism. And so there's way more information
about this than people realize because it's been very much
hidden in the modern world and we live in very

(21:32):
solar times and so anyway, so I was telling my
buddy about all this northern polar stuff and the North
Star and everything.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
He goes, you know what he goes.

Speaker 6 (21:40):
Basically, according to my research, every culture their supreme deity
is in Northern God and is basically emblematic of the
Polestar of the North Star.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
And I found that to be true.

Speaker 6 (21:52):
And so he mentioned that we come from very different
schools of thought and everything else. We disagree on a
lot of things, but that's one of the things he mentioned,
and sure enough, he's absolutely right. You know, the Northern
sky has been referred to as like the throne of
God or the abode of God. It's a really significant
star because you know, it was the pre eminent star

(22:13):
in early scene navigation. So if you were sailing around
with early tools and whatnot, maybe it was more advanced
than what we realize, right, because of what you're saying earlier.
I'm totally open to that for sure. But they say
that this was the primary star and scene navigation because
if you knew where the North Star was, you at
least knew where you were going, right if you're going north, south, east, west, whatever,

(22:36):
and every compass points where it points to the north right,
and so the north Star gives you orientation pretty much
in this reality, in this domain. And I found that
early kings and lords and emperors they clearly identified themselves
with the North Star. This is a whole entire history
that a lot of people aren't aware of because they

(22:57):
gave their people orientation as well. You know, they were
the point of pivot, you know, for their empire or
for their village or whatever. So they believed in this
star being basically, if you want to put it this way,
at the very top of the hierarchy in the system
of stars, and so that means that all other stars
are essentially subordinate to this main star. Now, this is

(23:21):
when people were geocentric, by the way, and so people
weren't yet heliocentric. So once heliocentrism came around, the focus
became on what the sun. So all of the symbolism
that was associated with the North Star and specifically Ursa Major,
which has seven stars. They've been referred to as the
seven Stars of Enlightenment, and Ursa Minor, the Little Dipper

(23:45):
also has seven stars. This is really really significant. And
by the way, the northern sky is where a lot
of cultures have said is where the steroid of heaven
assents to. And so there's this idea across mold multiple
cultures that the stairway to heaven takes you to the
northern sky. This is from you know, these Egyptian stuff.

(24:06):
There's lots of European stuff about this. It seems to
be pretty universal, excluding some of the southern you know, countries,
but it was really really significant and important. And so
so this central star was viewed as being sort of
an imperishable star. That's another name for the northern sky

(24:27):
and the stars up there, and it was considered to
be in the center of the wheel of heaven. And
the way a lot of people used to think, in
my opinion from what I've gathered, is they considered the
center to be sort of the most potent transcendental part
of any system, including yourself by the way. You know,

(24:47):
so there's this as above so below sort of dynamic
that the center of any system is the transcendental part
of the system. And so you wanted to embody the center,
and you wanted to embody sort of being in the
middle of your empire, and that your.

Speaker 2 (25:04):
Laws and rules and what you.

Speaker 6 (25:05):
Do, your influence basically radiates from the middle kind of
not unlike an antenna or something, right, you can imagine
an antenna or a tower, and everything sort of ripples
out from there. So a lot of older kings and
emperors and things like that, they had this idea that
they wanted to rule from the middle, but also from
the middle of self. And they had this idea as
well that basically that they connected heaven and Earth. You know,

(25:29):
this is an old concept that they were basically the
unifying sort of presence between heaven and Earth, and this
is sometimes referred to as the Great Triad, that there's
a triune relationship between Heaven, Earth, and man, and that
we are sort of symbolically the bridge between heaven and Earth.
And the best way to sort of embody this bridge

(25:49):
is to actually operate from the center of self. So
back then people had more of a focus on the
center of self, the center of the home, the center
of the community, the center of their empire, all of
these different types of things, because that's really where you
want to rule from. And I would say that the
heart is sort of our one of our main symbolic
centers in the body.

Speaker 7 (26:08):
That's great, man, just dropping bars on us tonight, dude.
And as you were saying that, I was starting to
think of and I kind of had a feeling that
Jonathan might bring it up. But it reminds me of
the the Neoplatonism kind of idea as far as everything
kind of emanating from the center and going outward, and
so we are on.

Speaker 5 (26:26):
The edge of that.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
So they exactly, Yeah.

Speaker 6 (26:29):
So they say yeah, yeah, no, for sure. There's a
lot of metaphors that make a lot of sense with this.
So my basic opinion is that all things emanate from
the center and return back to the same center. So
the center is really the point of origin, and then
also return not unlike our heart once again like blood,
so blood is pumped away from the heart and then
it also returns back to the heart. And so it's

(26:51):
very much like a torus field, if you know what
that looks like they do toskill is kind of like
a donut.

Speaker 1 (26:57):
That makes a lot of sense because we read something
the other day that says that whenever you die, you
go back to you and we were like, wait a second,
like let me let me think about that for a moment.
But if if that's the case, and you know the
symbolism at least that you're talking about, I don't know
that that might be pretty close to the truth.

Speaker 6 (27:17):
Well, I mean, that's the thing is actually the center
is everywhere, and so that that's uh, the center is
the place of non duality. And so the wheel is
actually a really great metaphor for all this stuff. And
so we're kind of all like our own wheel and
basically with the wheel. If you're operating on the outside
of the wheel, you're operating on the outside of self.

(27:40):
It's the outside of the wheel that basically relates to division, multiplicity.
It actually relates more to the physical world as well.

Speaker 7 (27:49):
Probably be the most chaotic too, because you're feeling most
of the centripittal force or centrifugal force.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
Rather Yeah, yeah, no, exactly, you totally got it, man, exactly.

Speaker 6 (27:57):
It's so it's the least stable part of the wheel
because it's always turning, it's always moving right, and so
where you really want to be is in the middle
of the wheel symbolically, and so the outside of the wheel,
you know, it's almost like a pie chart as well, right,
all of the lines for the pi tar, all of
the divisions you know, emanate from the center, so you
have all the different wedges. It's like a pizza or something.

(28:19):
And so when you get to the middle of the wheel,
you basically are the unifier of opposites. The middle of
the wheel is the most balanced part of the wheel.
It's the unifying part of the wheel, and it relates
basically to the unification of opposites. So it's the place
of non duality and there's all these traditions that relate
to this. And so it's been said that when you

(28:40):
get to the middle of your wheel, you become the.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
Unmoved mover or the prime mover.

Speaker 6 (28:45):
You cause the wheel to turn by being stationary, And
I would say the way you get there is actually
by being present, which is much harder said, or much
easier said than done, rather right, and so you get
there by being present. So presence to me is centeredness.
That is how you stay grounded and everything else. And

(29:08):
it's really hard in today's world because everything's vying for
your attention, and I think things move so fast that
people are really I think a lot of people tend
to think about the future a lot, and they're always
caught up with like what's happening, you know, tomorrow or
next week or whatever. But of course there's a lot
of people that are stuck in the past. So this
quote I heard this years ago, but it really stuck

(29:29):
with me, and it was, if you find yourself always
thinking about the future, you're going to be prone to anxiety,
which I think is true. If you find yourself always
thinking about the past, you're going to be prone to depression,
which I also think is true, but if you find
yourself in the present moment, you're going to be prone
to peace. And so there's artwork and statues and things
like that where Buddha is meditating in the middle of

(29:52):
a wheel, right because he is the axis. He is
the axle or axis of that wheel. That's the transcendental
part of the wheel. And a really great sort of
way to think about all of this as well is
with our chakra system. So chakra means disc or wheel.
Let's just say we have seven chakras. That's kind of
like the common sort of thing. The number seven comes

(30:13):
back again, by the way, So we have seven chakras
if they're all a disc or wheel. It relates to
this idea that there are realms above and below, but
they're connected through their center. That's kind of the trick
or sort of esoteric key, is that the realms above
and below are connected through the central bridge. Basically, this
is the same bridge that different cycle pomps or guides

(30:36):
of souls like hermes. This is how they get from
realm to realm. It's through the center basically. So you
have these different chakras, which means again disc or wheel,
and they're all connected through what your spine. Your spine
is the symbolic bridge, you know, between chakras, so it
acts as the axle for all of those wheels. And

(30:59):
this relates very strongly to just poll symbolism. Actually, funny enough,
randomly I got really deep into poll symbolism. And there's
so many figures that have a staff or a wand
just like your guys logo, right, what does that staff
actually mean? When someone's holding it vertically like that, you're
basically especially like in the Magician card, the magician's holding

(31:21):
the wand upward and then he's pointing his other hand
down to the ground. He basically declaring that he is
the bridge between above and below.

Speaker 2 (31:30):
Nice.

Speaker 6 (31:32):
So when you see somebody holding a wand or or
a scepter or something like that, it's super super powerful,
and people understood this, you know, most people today. Unless
you get really into this kind of information, you're never
going to kind of consider the power of things like that.
But once you notice it, you can't unsee it, and
then you're like, oh shit, well, the hermit he holds

(31:53):
a staff too, and then the emperor oftentimes he's holding
a wand as well, and then all these, you know,
puzzle pieces start kind of coming together.

Speaker 4 (32:01):
Dude.

Speaker 7 (32:01):
Yeah, the center of the wheel gets all the grease too,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (32:04):
In a good way? Yeah, exactly, exactly right.

Speaker 1 (32:07):
You know, it was a few months ago, maybe close
to a year ago now, we did an episode on
the what's called the Noble Eightfold Path, and and one
of the like one of the main concepts in there
is the middle Path. And dude, that's exactly. That's all basically,
that's all Buddhism is about, is just staying in the

(32:28):
middle path. So, man, the symbolism is really everywhere as
far as just the center or the middle of everything, exactly.

Speaker 6 (32:36):
Yeah, if you want more overt polar symbolism and you
want to study it, the Eastern world has it still intact,
and it's through symbols like the wheel, like exactly like
what you're saying, and this middle path dynamic, it's the
same exact thing. And so even you know, it's interesting.

(32:57):
China has been referred to as the middle them for
a long time and there's actually little grids that you
can see. I have it in some of my books
where the emperor very deliberately wanted to be in the
middle of the empire, and he wanted his abode or
he wanted his temple to be in the center because
he believed in this middle path stuff. So so really

(33:19):
a lot of Eastern philosophy is basically like.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
Polar symbolism pretty much, you know.

Speaker 6 (33:24):
And so the further west you go, the less there
is of this. The further east you go, the more
you're going to see it.

Speaker 1 (33:31):
Dude. You know what's really interesting about that, just talking
about China and the Eastern kind of countries that you know,
embody this kind of stuff. And I believe that probably
by now through all of the symbolism and all the occultism,
you know, like especially within our country, like in the
United States, dude, if you look at Washington, d C.
It is built like it's a pentagram, like it's and

(33:54):
it's pointing directly at the White House, which is crazy, Yeah,
is a question, but it's interesting because Washington, DC is
nowhere near the center of the United States. It's probably
it's you know, symbolically, it's it's almost like on one
of those outer spokes up against.

Speaker 2 (34:11):
The edge of the wheel, right right exactly.

Speaker 6 (34:15):
Yeah, you know, this is the interesting thing about all
of this that again, it kind of took me a
while to wrap my head around. There's this really great
book actually by this guy named John Michelle and he
wrote it and it was called At the Center of
the World, and he talks about this dynamic, and he
talks about this old science called centrography, and there's still

(34:37):
some centrographers left. And what a centrographer does is they
locate the center of a place. And so if you
live on an island, as an example, at some point
someone's going to want to know what is dead center
of this island, Like where is the middle of the island?
You know, every country kind of has something like this
as well. It's like what's the middle of the United States,
what's the middle of whatever sort of space or talking

(35:00):
about whatever region you're talking about. And basically he gets
into this dynamic of all of these kings and stuff
having this understanding the symbolism, you know, this old world,
primordial symbolism of the center. And he goes through so
many examples, especially in Europe, of all of these different
towns and villages that essentially, when you translate the name,

(35:24):
it means center, it means middle, it means sometimes there's
other words that relate to this, like navel is actually
a really common one. A heart is another common one.
The heart of the world, you know, the navel of
the universe, you know, things like that. And while reading
that book and doing other research, basically the symbolism is

(35:45):
that if everything emanated from the center, and everything goes
back to that center, everything is an expression of that center. Basically,
so every tree I live around, a bunch of trees
I live in the forest, So every tree symbolic of
that axis. This axis that I'm referring to some people.
By the way, if you've never heard this before, this

(36:05):
is a huge rabbit hole. The world axis, the idea
of a world axis. Sometimes it's referred to as the
axis Moonde. Yes, but it's this idea that there is
a central axis that all things revolve around. And what
people believed was that it extends from the north pole
north Pole to the pole star, the north Star, and

(36:27):
that this is the spiritual central axis for all rotation essentially,
and so every tree is an emanation of that original axis.
Again that scepter back there, that want, it's an emanation
of that central axis. And so what does that mean
that means that in symbolically every location that would be

(36:47):
considered to be like a holy land or like a
pilgrimage location, what you're really saying, like the deep symbolism
of that is, what you're saying is that something happened
here that is divine and that it bridged the gap
between Heaven and Earth. Something transcendental happened here. And so
you'll notice that the biggest pilgrimage locations have the exact

(37:11):
same claim. Transcendental happen here, and or it's considered the
heart of the world or the heart of the universe,
and or that this is where the seat of humanity began.
That's another really common claim. This is the original Garden
of Eden as an example. And so when you know this,
you'll see that a lot of these pilgrimage locations, like

(37:34):
the rituals surrounding the location are fascinating. So one of
my favorite examples is the Kabacube and Meca. And so
if you're a Muslim, you pray towards the Kaba Cube,
you know, five times a day, no matter where you're
at right and so it's your duty or it's your yeah,

(37:55):
it's your job kind of as a Muslim to at
some point have a pilgrimage there. And so you're going
to the Kabacube, and so you go to Mecca, and
what is the main ritual of the Cobbacube. You go
to the cube and you revolve around it. You walk
around it seven times, and you're actually walking around it
seven times counterclockwise.

Speaker 5 (38:15):
And say counterclockwise, I believe.

Speaker 6 (38:17):
Yeah, that's a really significant point. And the reason I
kind of geek out on this one is because the
fixed stars go around the polestar counterclockwise. The sun glows clockwise.
There's a big difference between a clockwise rotation symbolically and
a counterclockwise rotation. A clockwise rotation is more solar, it's

(38:37):
more expansive. So symbolically, if you're walking around something in
a clockwise fashion, or you're looking at a standard clock
with the hands going around that point of pivot, there's
actually an expansive, solar, kind of more masculine kind of
thing going on. With a counterclockwise rotation, it's actually more polar,
it's actually more contracting. It actually brings you closer to

(38:58):
what the center right.

Speaker 1 (39:01):
Which does make sense because even all throughout nature, everything
the things that spiral throughout nature, I believe are counterclockwise.
If you look at like certain seashells and you know,
rings and a tree and stuff like that too.

Speaker 6 (39:15):
Yeah, that's interesting, to be honest, I should probably pay
attention to that more with like seashells and things like that.
I'm not surprised though, and so so there's other locations
around the world. I was watching a documentary a few
weeks ago, and it was about this mountain, Mount Kilosh,
and it's a pilgrimage location for a lot of Buddhists,

(39:37):
and they go to this mountain, really high elevation, not
an easy journey, and they go around it. These are
called circumambulation rituals, where you're going around this central totem.
And it was really interesting actually they were saying that
most Buddhists go around Mount Kailash in a clockwise fashion,
but the old old sect, the ones acknowledge the old

(40:01):
world and the primordial way of doing things, they actually
go counterclockwise. Which this is basically the shift that I'm
talking about, the polar to solar shift that completely changed
everything basically.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
And so there's a lot.

Speaker 6 (40:14):
Of claims of the center of the world, and they
have a lot of similar things kind of going on there.
And so a Jerusalem, right is another example of a
claim of the center of the world. You can't tell
Jews otherwise. There's a lot of claims all over the
place of no this is where the Garden of Eden was,
or this is where Paradise was, the original paradise, or

(40:35):
this is where our demi God ascended to the heavens,
or something along these lines. And where I've kind of
come to with that is that they're all right, They're
all right.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
They all have the right to make this claim.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
We say that at the time. Yeah, everybody's right.

Speaker 6 (40:51):
If you believe it, you're right, yeah, you know. And
so if that's what they think, who am I to
say otherwise? And actually, to be honest with you now
with where I'm at, Yeah, it's actually the sign of
a healthy society. It's the sign of a healthy society
that they believe so much that in their backyard their
gods came from there.

Speaker 2 (41:09):
You know.

Speaker 6 (41:09):
There's a lot of people that they have nothing like that,
they have nothing even close to that, you know, And
so I respect it in many ways. So kind of
back to the Washington d C. Sort of thing. It's like,
if you believe it, if they believe it, if they're
imbuing it with this symbolism, it's kind of true. And
that's actually what every lodge, like, if we're talking about
free Masonic lodges or different temples and things like that,

(41:31):
for different mystery schools or religions or whatever. Pretty much
what the temple or lodge is. It's a microcosm of
the macrocosm. But you're supposed to believe that your lodge
is the center of the universe.

Speaker 4 (41:43):
You know.

Speaker 6 (41:43):
It's like it's better for your workings and your magic
and your rituals and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 (41:48):
Which is fascinating too because it just goes to show
the actual energy and power that is embedded into belief itself.
You don't even it doesn't need to be factually absolutely
true because your your mind and your belief system, if
you if you pump it up, you know enough, energetically

(42:11):
wise and belief wise, it is true in that sense,
and so almost like belief, yeah, you know, is just
stronger than even truth in some senses.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
Oh bro, yeah, exactly, It's it's true.

Speaker 6 (42:25):
And it's so interesting too because this really fits in
line with you know, just the symbolic conversation we're having.
But one of the things with symbolism is that, you know,
I'm really convinced that what we were taught in school
about the physical world, you know, coming about first basically
the realm of atoms and physicality, the material universe. You know,

(42:48):
what we're taught in school is that that occurred, you know,
however it occurred the Big Bang or whatever, and that
everything else came afterwards, you know, humanity and our thoughts
and you know, psychology and symbolism and spiritual beliefs.

Speaker 2 (43:03):
And everything else came after that evolution.

Speaker 6 (43:05):
I'm of the exact opposite opinion now, where I'm like, actually,
it's the realm of thought forms, it's the realm of symbolism,
it's the dream realm, it's the spirit realm that preceded matter. Actually,
so that's why symbolism matters as well.

Speaker 1 (43:19):
The first hermetic principle is that all is mind.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, that's exactly great.

Speaker 6 (43:25):
It's just you know, and I'll say, I'm so glad
you've brought it up a couple of times now, but
just kind of like mercurial hermetic sort of things or whatever.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
If you want to find a planet.

Speaker 6 (43:37):
Or a deity that is sort of the most overt
polar god that we have in the planetary system, it's Mercury,
Mercury Hermes a thousand percent. You're going to unlock a
whole new level of symbolism if you understand it's polar
sort of essence. And so as an example, you know,
it's not uncommon for Mercury Hermes to be associated with

(43:59):
the pole, the phallus, the column, or the pillar right,
and Hermes is always holding that caducius right, it's a
wand with two serpents wrapped around it. These two serpents,
however you want to look at it, it represents duality black, white, masculine, feminine,

(44:21):
you know whatever. And it reminds me very much of
two pillars as well, like the two pillars in freemasonry
or whatever bo as Jacquin. One is masculine, one is feminine,
one is more light, one is dark, et cetera. But
oftentimes in freemasonry you're going to see a central pillar,
you know, or with the cadusius, you're going to have

(44:42):
that central Wand so what's the symbolism of the central
pillar or that wand it's actually polar. You're dealing with
a lunar quality, a solar quality. But what preceded both
it polar symbolism did.

Speaker 1 (44:54):
And usually within those traditions, it'll be the person walking
through both of those poles in they represent that center.

Speaker 6 (45:02):
Poll right exactly, yeah, exactly. So you see these two pillars,
there's always an implied central pillar, whether that central pillar
is there or not. And the dynamic is that that
central pillar preceded duality essentially that it's more of a
unifying sort of presence. You could even look at it.
We're about to enter into libra season and I did

(45:24):
a whole presentation on this.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
But you have two pans of the scales, right, same thing.
You're weighing two things. You're contrasting two things and seeing
how they fare against each other.

Speaker 6 (45:34):
Wait wise, and so you have masculine and feminine, black
and white whatever. But you need the central pedestal, you
need that central column in order for the scales to
even weigh against each other to begin with. And so
it's that central pillar that has a point of pivot,
a folkrum that actually gives the whole entire system the

(45:58):
ability to even function work or whatever.

Speaker 7 (46:01):
And you can even say that that central pillar is
pretty neutral.

Speaker 6 (46:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. So Mercury is well known
for being like androgynous and having both masculine and feminine.
So what you're really saying is that there's two in one,
and so whenever you have two, there's always a third quality.
So man and woman come together, you can create a child, right,
and so there's always like a third thing whenever two

(46:27):
sort of qualities come together. And so so yeah, Mercury
hermes like thoroughly in my opinion, it's like the most
polar sort of like planet Deity out there, and there's
a ton to talk about with that, which is why
as well, the Magician card is ruled by Mercury. And
so the Magician holds his wand once again up in

(46:48):
the heavens, points his other hand down to the ground.
He's saying, I'm the central pillar in the House of God.
And basically that card corresponds with the Hebrew letter bet
or beth, which literally means house, and so that's a
clear correspondence with the magician being this central pillar in
this sort of space essentially, and you know, there's a

(47:12):
lot of people who say that we live in a
firmament sort of system.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
I don't know where you guys are at, you know,
with that.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
I think it is whatever it is.

Speaker 6 (47:22):
You know a lot of people back in the day
had this idea that we live sort of in this
firmament kind of thing. It's this big dome that you
can't escape from it. That this is actually a close
system of sorts. It's not as open as what we've
kind of been told or what have you. And when
you're dealing with a dome and dome symbolism, the dome
is the home, you know. The dome is like a

(47:42):
really important, powerful symbol. But the transcendental exit of the
dome is that the very tippy top of the dome.
You know that that sort of represents the middle of
the vault of heaven where the North Star would be
and everything else.

Speaker 1 (47:55):
Oh man, So all right, I mean we're we're talking
about the the polar almost deities, right, or the polar deities, right.
And you mentioned about how in like maybe it was
ancient Rome that they were more shifted toward the polar
and then there seemed to be some kind of shift
towards the solar And it's funny because we recently covered

(48:20):
how Constantine and a bunch of emperors that came before Constantine,
they always had on their coinage it was a it
was a like an emblem of them. But then they
had the sun right behind them to help represent like
Saul and Victus, and they wanted to essentially be like
God on earth to the people, right and and then

(48:41):
so much so that that actually overlapped into what became
known as like Christianity over in Rome. And that's as
far as my research goes. That's the reason why the
sun was always behind Jesus's head and all of the
different pictures and whatnot. So when do you think that
that transition actually happened, that they that they trans positioned
over to solar.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
You know, that's a really good question.

Speaker 6 (49:05):
And I'll just say the kind of research I do personally,
I don't get caught up on dates. And one of
the reasons being is and this could be a cop out.
Some people might think it's a cop out. You know,
I don't know what year it is. I don't know
how history has been falsified. There's a lot of things

(49:25):
I'm unsure of in that way, you know, even in
China they have like an esoteric you know, it's not
twenty twenty five. It's like they have their own year.
The Jews have their own year. We have our own year.
I've heard so many different claims that there's been a
thousand years added or removed also to once you get
further back in history, you know, the the you know,

(49:48):
I don't know if some of these emperors even really existed.
Is it really myth or were they actually like real characters.
And so for those reasons, I can't really say what
I have heard, though the close this thing I've heard too,
this is Chinese.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
Though. There's this author.

Speaker 6 (50:04):
His name is John Major Jenkins, and he wrote a
book called Galactic Alignment. And basically any author that has
referred to the polar to solar shift, I probably have
their books because I just went on a whole entire
thing for like a couple of years of like anyone
who mentions anything, I want it, you know, and so
and so he wrote this book and basically in one

(50:27):
of the chapters he says that the Chinese people five
thousand years ago were polar and that it was at
the five thousand year mark from today or from around
now is when they transition to solar symbolism. And he
was saying that according to his research, that they had
a polar understanding of the world and of metaphysics and

(50:50):
everything else, and that their constellations were in the northern sky.
He said that they had eight constellations around the North Star,
and he said they had one per trigram.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
And that's the basis of the e Ching.

Speaker 6 (51:04):
I'm not sure if you guys have ever gotten into
the e Ching and their divination system.

Speaker 1 (51:08):
Talked a little bit about it, but having done like
a super deep dive into the e Chang.

Speaker 6 (51:11):
Yet, Yeah, it's really really interesting. So the Eching just briefly,
it's a divination system. It's a lot more than that, actually,
but it's all made up of yin and yang lines.
So a yin line is like a broken line, there's
space in the middle. A yang line is a connected line.
And if you combine these lines and you make six
different lines that alternate or whatever order yin and yang,

(51:35):
you now have a hexagram. And so they have sixty
four hexagrams. They make these hexagrams by combining trigrams, and
there's only eight trigrams, so eight times eight to sixty four,
and so he said that they had eight constellations that
represented their eight trigrams five thousand years ago, and then
he said, when they became more solar around that timeframe,

(51:59):
they shift did those eight constellations to the path of
the sun, and then they added four more constellations, giving
them their modern twelve constellation zodiac. And so I actually
think that that's the story that is sort of perhaps universal,
is that all of these cultures, once again they were

(52:19):
focused on the northern sky.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
Once they became more solar.

Speaker 6 (52:22):
Perhaps five thousand years ago or so, I'm not sure,
they shifted their focus to the path of the sun,
and then they transferred the symbolism of those constellations to
the path of the sun. So when you really are
going to talk about the origin of the zodiac, in
my opinion, I think that the symbolism of the twelve
signs of the zodiac literally come from the northern sky.

(52:46):
So that's kind of my opinion about things basically, But
that's the closest thing to like a timeframe I can
kind of gather. The church, the Catholic Church definitely had
a vested interest in promoting solar symbolism for sure, and
so so the whole tire thing behind it basically is
that the polestar was the pre eminent star, the symbolism

(53:08):
of the polestar shifted to the Sun. That's pretty much
the basic way of putting it from my estimation based
on my research. And it's interesting when you look into
solar symbolism. It acts as a point of pivot because
this is the planets revolve around the Sun, and so
it's a pole. It's a symbolic pole. The Sun is
a symbolic pole for the planetary system. It's that hinge,

(53:31):
it's that axis for the seven planets, or the external
planets too, if you want to count those. And so
even in the Sun card, in a lot of modern
versions of the Sun card, you will see that there's
a young boy and he's holding a pole. He's holding
a pole and there's a flag on it, because it
retains axis symbolism. But what I've learned over time, especially

(53:53):
in the occult esoteric world, is that when the Sun
is referenced, it doesn't always mean the physical sun that
rises in the east and sets in the west. In
some esoteric circles, the sun is a code for northern
symbolism actually funny enough. And so when you're referring to

(54:15):
the black Sun, the philosopher's Sun, the invisible Sun, you know,
what have you, that it's actually referring to a stationary
point of pivot. It's not referencing the normal sun. So
this is something that really blew my mind when I
came across it that in freemasonry you might see a
sun in some paintings, you might see a sun halo thing.

(54:38):
There's actually examples, especially in the Eastern world, where people
will have sort of a sun like kind of glow
behind them, almost like a halo, and it's not the Sun.
It's actually the polestar. They're saying that this is the polestar.
It's not a solar reference. And so there's still some
solar deities that you can look into for sure, like
in Japan the name escapes me right now, but there's

(54:59):
multiple in the Eastern world where they're they're very clear
north star polar gods.

Speaker 2 (55:03):
They're not solar gods.

Speaker 1 (55:04):
Is this what uh would you say that maybe some
of the Greek symbolism and Greek gods and whatnot, is
is that more solar or is that polar.

Speaker 2 (55:16):
It's more solar, I would say, for sure.

Speaker 6 (55:19):
Yeah, yeah, so any Greek Roman everything sense way more solar.
But the thing about it that's really interesting is if
everything emanated from this earlier tradition, there's echoes of it
all over the place, so it's fingerprints are still all
over the place. As an example, you know, when you
look at newer books that are about symbolism, there's so

(55:45):
many symbols where people will say, you know, I'm just
gonna throw out three quick examples. The swastika. The swastika, Oh,
it's a solar symbol. It's it's it's a it's about
the Sun revolving around and it's this solar wheel. Or
they'll say that the obelisk, oh, it's a solar tower basically,
you know, it represents it's an emanation of the sun essentially.

(56:06):
Or they'll have other symbols that they say, it's all solar,
it's all based around the sun. That's a modern construct's
that's more of a modern interpretation of things. In actuality,
the swastika is basically it's ursa major which looks like
a number seven. By the way, I'm really convinced that
the number seven actually comes from the northern sky.

Speaker 2 (56:26):
It's major, it's the Big Dipper, and that's seven. The
top of the seven points you to the polestar by
the way. This is an old way.

Speaker 6 (56:33):
This is one of the oldest ways people found the
polestars by looking for the Big Dipper. And wherever the
vessel points towards, that's the pole star. And so you're
looking at ursa Major go around the pole star. You're
basically showing ursa Major around the Polestar once a season,
four times a year. That's the Swasika. And there's a
bunch of sources in the Eastern world where they say

(56:56):
that that's the case, that they're not even hiding it.
It's not esoteric, it's not like an underground thing or whatever.
And so, but for Western people it is because Western
people are so much more solar and so the obelisk
is another good example. Is it really just a symbol
of the sun or is there a polar dynamic? It
makes way more sense to me now that I know

(57:17):
what I know. It's a clear polar symbol. You know,
it's a world axis symbol.

Speaker 2 (57:22):
And so there's.

Speaker 6 (57:22):
An obelisk, you know in DC there's probably multiple in DC.
There's an obelisk in the middle of Saint Peters Square
at the Vatican. You know, they're all over the place,
So it to me it speaks more to this older tradition.
But unless you're schooled in it, obviously you're going to
have a different sort of perspective on things.

Speaker 1 (57:41):
Well, it's interesting because the I mean, the pole shifts though,
doesn't it it's not necessarily, I mean, it's up there
and it's pretty stationary for the most part, but it
does shift every I was just looking it up every
and it depends, but approximately it shifts every three hundred
thousand years on average. And yeah, it says the last

(58:05):
major reversal happened seven hundred and eighty thousand years ago,
So maybe that predates humanity. I don't know.

Speaker 6 (58:11):
But right, are you talking about pulse shift as in
like magnetic pulse shift with the Earth. Yeah, so so
there's a couple of different ways of looking at that.

Speaker 1 (58:20):
Only reason I say that is is because I've heard
that that there's this hasn't always been our north star,
that there was a north star that predated.

Speaker 6 (58:31):
That, right, right, Yeah, And there's a list you can
see too of what the previous pollstars were.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
My understanding is the one just before.

Speaker 6 (58:39):
What we currently have now is isn't the Draco constellation,
which is still a northern constellation.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
So there's two ways of looking at this.

Speaker 5 (58:48):
Well.

Speaker 6 (58:48):
I wonder when people refer to pull shift if they're
actually referring to the polestar shifting like what you're talking about,
and that the magnetic shift were, you know, basically the
polls shift and everything else. I don't know if I
personally if that's part of my sort of way of
looking at things. But what's been said basically is that

(59:10):
there are people who believe and I've done a number
of podcasts about this, people who are like really interested
in this information. And I've met people not saying that
they're right by any means, but I've met more and
more people who have the opinion that the polestar actually
never shifts, but that the procession of equinoxes still shifts,
which I think that's it's like one degree every seventy

(59:32):
two years last time I checked, right, you know, so
that you know that everything kind of shifts a hair,
you know, every seventy two years, which is.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
Why our astrology is wrong, really right?

Speaker 2 (59:45):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 6 (59:46):
But one of the other ways of looking at it
would be people have made the claim that the pole
star title of being the star of stars is actually
just that it's a title just like a king. And
so you might have a king that's reigning for forty
years or something. They are the king. They are at
the very top of that hierarchy. There's nothing that you

(01:00:07):
can do to kind of unless you assassinate them or whatever.
But they are going to be the supreme sort of
unifying principle for that empire, and that they are at
the very head of that pyramid.

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
And then that's going to change. So then when they
die or their time has come.

Speaker 6 (01:00:23):
That you know they're going to be aged out of
being a king or whatever. The new king takes on
that new responsibility. So the glory of that position stays
the same no matter what, even if the pole star shifts.
So that's one way of looking at it, and it's
probably the safer way of looking at it as well.

Speaker 1 (01:00:39):
I would say that does make sense because you know,
we've done a little bit of research on you know,
before Christianity came to Rome, you would have emperors that
and there would be like little spinoff cults like that
were essentially worshiping the emperors over there. But they weren't
necessarily worshiping the emperors. They were worshiping the emperor's genius,

(01:01:01):
which is, you know, where the idea of the genie
or the gin comes from, or you know, the emperor's demon,
which doesn't mean demon, you know, like how we see
it now, It was essentially just like the higher self,
for a lack of a better word, of that individual
of the time. And yeah, it's pretty interesting that you
would have the emperor in the center of the country

(01:01:25):
or center of the town or whatever, and they would
all be worshiping even his middle, his inner in that.

Speaker 6 (01:01:31):
Sense, exactly exactly, And so how do you commune with
the divine?

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
You know?

Speaker 6 (01:01:37):
In my opinion, it kind of goes back to you know,
you guys have heard this, but know thyself and you'll
know the universe, you know. And so the way I
put it is that there truly is a symbolic thread
that exists between the center of self and the center
of the cosmos.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
There just is, you know.

Speaker 6 (01:01:53):
And so the same way with a big tree, a massive,
impossibly huge tree, tiniest pine or needle or leaf on
a tree is still part of this big, big system,
right that it even has a relationship with the deepest
roots of the tree, you know that nobody has ever
seen before.

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
The fractal encompasses the whole exactly.

Speaker 6 (01:02:16):
Yeah, yeah, one pc yep. So it just reminds me
of fractal patterns, you know. And so the idea is
that when you are in touch with this interior part
of self, your inner landscape, that again you become this bridge.
And wouldn't you know, the Pope is the symbolic bridge
or the symbolic axis for the church, right for the

(01:02:38):
for the Vatican Church, and pont Effect's Maximus translates to
the greatest bridge builder, and all of his symbolism relates
to all of the stuff that I'm talking about basically,
like when you understand the symbolism, you see that it's
all it's all polar axial stuff. And I did a
whole presentation on this because the last pope died and
I was like, following sort of the traditions and everything else.

Speaker 2 (01:03:00):
I'm like, I got to make a video about this.

Speaker 6 (01:03:02):
It's too juicy, it's too interesting, And so I talked
about how the pope just like every other leader represents
a symbolic axis to the divine and represents a symbolic poll,
and so they are again the point of pivot for
that tradition or for those people. And so wherever the
pole goes, or wherever the axis goes, wherever the pope goes,

(01:03:22):
that's where everyone's head is swiveling towards, you know. And
so because he gives them orientation and everything else, but
all of his symbolism encodes all of this stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
So the pope is like the magician then at that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
Point pretty much. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:03:37):
And also you know, the tarot equivalent is the Hierfriink card, right,
and so the arroor equivalents the Higerpriin card. The Pope
is always sitting between what two pillars? Yea, he is
the central pillar, you know, He's the central pillar the
same way Christ symbolically is the way, you know, and
so he is sort of the doorway. He's kind of
the guardian of the doorway, yeah, exactly to the other side.

(01:04:00):
And he's always associated with keys, so he'll oftentimes have
a silver key and a golden key at his feet
in the Hygrofint card. The official papal like emblem or
insignia literally is the two crossed keys, you know, the
keys of Peter. And so right in the middle of
Vatican Square is this obelisk, which literally came from Egypt.

(01:04:23):
And this obelisk, the translation of the place where it
came from translates to like the place of a thousand
pillars or something like that. But it's an actual obelisk
from Egypt. They brought it over. It's in Vatican Square.
If you look at Vatican Square and you're looking at
it from a top down perspective, it looks like a
key hole, and so it looks exactly like a key hole,

(01:04:45):
and so you actually see a key in the middle
of a key hole. And he's associated with all these
key symbolism, all the key symbolism, right, and basically when
you decode what key symbolism is all about, it's basically
a mini axis. It's basically a mini pole, you know.
And how to use a key, you put it in
a hole and then you have to turn it right.

(01:05:06):
So there's always this spin sort of dynamic with this
axial stuff. You can refer to this whole study, by
the way, is axial symbolism. That's another way of putting it, I.

Speaker 7 (01:05:13):
Wonder is it the same as far as like the
anc is concerned, because it's like, it looks like very similar.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
I would say it's very similar. Personally.

Speaker 6 (01:05:21):
I think there's there's other stuff going on there, but
I would say that there's enough overlap.

Speaker 4 (01:05:25):
Well.

Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
And usually whenever you go and unlock something, you're you're
counterclocking it. Whenever you're unlocked, right.

Speaker 6 (01:05:31):
There you go, man, Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's interesting. So
what I used to say all the time years ago
is that a lot of symbolism comes back to poles
and holes, and so where there's a pole, there's going
to be a hole. Just think of sexual symbolism, yeah,
you know. And so it's all poles and holes basically.

(01:05:51):
So it makes sense that the higher fin is in
between the pillars. It's a symbolic opening. But he also
has the key to that opening. He has the keys
to the gate of of Heven basically. And there's a
ton of other stuff too. I mean, like with the
Hire Frink card, that card corresponds with Taurus, right, which
is a bowl. And for a long time, like how
does this make sense? What's going on?

Speaker 5 (01:06:12):
There?

Speaker 6 (01:06:13):
A lot of world religions have a cow or bowl
in their origin story. In fact, I'm not sure if
you're aware. Have you ever gotten into Manley p Hall?

Speaker 1 (01:06:23):
Oh yeah, yeah, we actually had his successor come on
the show. His name is Ronnie Pontiac. You should definitely
have a conversation with him. Y'all would get along so great.
But he essentially learned under Mainly p Hall and had
so many stories of manly and it was manly p
Hall helped pay for his wedding to his wife.

Speaker 7 (01:06:44):
And got crazy house. Actually he opened his house this
ship to get to be able to get married to
his wife so fast, Sam, that's amazing.

Speaker 6 (01:06:51):
The name sounds familiar, and I know he's made the rounds,
probably on podcasts or things like that, but I've never
listened to him. I should tell definitely check that out.

Speaker 1 (01:06:58):
He has like eighties like Rocker.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
It's awesome, Okay, right, nice, nice? Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:07:05):
So you know his classic work is The Secret Teachings
of All Ages, Right, that book was very influential and
blew my mind when I read it and everything else.
But what you'll notice when you open it is one
of the first like when the actual book portion really starts,
the first plate or illustration in there is a painting

(01:07:25):
called a Group of World Religions, and you start scanning
the artwork and it's all of these little micro scenes
from these different religious origin stories and you're going to
see like the apist bull from Egypt, You're going to
see the Golden Calf from Christianity, You're going to see,
you know, these different bulls you know, throughout world history

(01:07:46):
and and these different sort of religions. And basically there's
like eight or nine different little scenes with bulls in it.
And pretty much what he says is the bull is
sort of what unifies, you know, all of these religions together.
And so he wouldn't start his massive magnum opus book,
you know, with that point unless it was really really significant.

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):
R And so this goes back to.

Speaker 6 (01:08:09):
An old idea of there being like a bowl of
heaven and that basically the heaven's kind of being a bull.
Like in nature, there's there's like Egyptian paintings and different
works of art and stuff where people are underneath this
gigantic bull and the bull has stars in it, and
so it's almost kind of like the bull's body is
like the firmament itself or something along these lines.

Speaker 2 (01:08:29):
Right.

Speaker 6 (01:08:30):
Well, this is super super interesting because in my opinion,
you know, this idea of there being an exit in
the vault of heaven in the middle where the northern
sky is, it fits perfectly with a Torus field right
the middle of a trust field has the opening right
there in the center. And we have an electromagnetic grid

(01:08:51):
around Earth called the magnetosphere that is a Taurus field.
A Taurus field. Why do we call it a Taurus
field of all things? Ohs, a reference to the bull.
And there's this book by this woman who names Judy K.
King and it's called the isis Thesis, and she did
kind of like updated translations of some hieroglyphs and things

(01:09:12):
like that, and basically in her book she says that
at one point in time, at least for this one
sect of Egyptians, they had this understanding that basically when
they died, they exited in the northern sky out of
the out of this cusp that symbolically they referred to
as the horn of a bull. Basically, so the opening

(01:09:33):
in the northern sky was referred to as a bullhorn, right,
And so that's interesting as well because literally they also
referred to Ursa major as the thigh of a bull.
And so if you look at the Denderi zodiac and
you look at the northern sky, you will see literally
like a severed bull's thigh, and you will also see

(01:09:55):
this bull's thigh in other artworks that relate to this ritual,
the opening of the Mouth ritual. And so there is
this idea that you would go through this ritual if
you were an important person like a pharaoh or whatever,
and if you wanted to retain your senses. I guess
that was the point of this ritual, was that they
wanted to see and hear and smell and taste in

(01:10:16):
the afterlife. They would present this bull's thigh to the
mouth of the pharaoh the opening of the Mouth ritual.
But sometimes they would use what's called an ADS tool,
and it's a woodworking tool, and this tool looked like
a number seven. What's really interesting is and this is

(01:10:37):
like there's a lot of references out there that back
this up. The ADS tool and the thigh of the bull,
they were symbolic references for Ursa major that that's literally
what they were intending with this ritual. And so because
we're talking about the opening of the gateway of Heaven basically,
So there's lots of bull stuff in the northern sky.

(01:10:58):
So I think that makes a lot of sense that
the hifant card is associated with Taurus. There's just like
multiple esoteric layers behind it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:05):
It is. And you take it back to even whenever.
You know, Moses was going up the mountain to go
get the tablets or the tablet with the ten commandments
that were going to be given by God and he
comes back down and all the people who are worshiping
this golden calf, right, yeah, right, and you find out,
well I found out and I don't know if this
is verifiable, maybe you would know it, but I found

(01:11:27):
out that essentially the symbolism of the golden calf, or
at least the deity that they were worshiping through the
golden calf, was actually Hathor. Have you ever heard of that?

Speaker 6 (01:11:38):
Oh, you know, I haven't heard of that, but there's
a lot of Hathor symbolism that does relate to the bowl.
And I'll say this is another big shift just for
people who are interested in symbolism. Is that so there
is this major polar to solar shift, right, there's also
what related to that. There's also a major shift from

(01:11:59):
feminine to mask it. And so a lot of today's
symbols are over they're they're they're too masculine, basically, you know,
over masculinized. That's that's what I was going to.

Speaker 1 (01:12:09):
Say, Patriot.

Speaker 2 (01:12:10):
But you see this with like Taurus.

Speaker 6 (01:12:12):
That Taurus way back when was actually viewed as a cow,
not as a bull. Today you kind of see Taurus
as like a masculine bull who's aggressive and things like that.
So Hathor has a lot of like feminine Venusian symbolism
associated with it. I've never heard that before, but that
is interesting. I wouldn't be surprised, dude.

Speaker 1 (01:12:29):
Yeah, I started doing a little bit of research on
it because I don't know, probably two years ago, I
had like a crazy mushroom trip and or just a
psychedelic trip, and I was like, I don't know, I
was kind of I shouldn't have tripped on psychedelics this night,
specifically because I was kind of going through it, you
know what I mean, which if you're emotionally charged, last

(01:12:50):
thing you want to do is take psychedelics. Yeah, And
and I took it, and I was like, man, I
was really struggling with a decision that I had made
and and it you know, obviously, if you have that
and you bring that to the table of psychedelics, it's
gonna make you go even deeper and deeper and deeper
into the core of said whatever it is, right, And
I was really struggling with it, and so I went
to go lay down because I was like tired. I

(01:13:11):
wanted to turn my brain off. It was working overtime, right,
I went to go lay down in bed and do
This's gonna sound like like kind of weird. I actually
told this story to Ronnie Pontiac, but I went to
go lay in bed, dude, and I was like, I
don't know what I believe. Can somebody just come and
like talk to me, tell me what I'm supposed to do?

(01:13:31):
And you know, rite and uh, kind of a meltdown actually,
And in that moment, dude, I felt a cat. Don't
look at me weird for this one, but I felt
a cat person lay down in bed with me, dude. Oh,
and it was like purring up against me. And it
was so strange. The entire time. I told that story

(01:13:53):
to Ronnie Pontiac and he goes, oh, that's interesting the
exactly the way that you described that that cat, it
was like it was like a cat female, It was
like a cat human, you know, and he goes it
sounds a lot like Segmet. So I started doing a
lot of research into Secment and trying to figure out
that whole story. And then Sekmet connects to Hathor and
that whole story, and it's almost like there was like

(01:14:14):
an evolution of Segment that turned into Hathor depending on
which story you read. And then I ended up listening
to if you ever heard of the the book called
Ufo of God by Chris Bledsoe.

Speaker 2 (01:14:30):
And oh, I've heard of it. I haven't read it, dude.

Speaker 1 (01:14:33):
It is wild because he talks about he keeps on
getting like all these orbs and shit showing up in
his backyard and it's wild, right, And a lot of
them get real, real, real close. Well, one specific night,
one came really close, like almost too close, and it
almost came down and like this, it came down and
like this orb and it came up on him and
out of this orb jumped out a bull and a

(01:14:55):
woman that was either that transformed into the bull or
riding the bull. I can't remember, and this woman was Hathor,
he says, And so it's interesting that the symbolism between
Hathor in the bull in that sense, and he, you know,
allegedly got a message from her or something like that.
He wasn't even tripping on psychedelics, which I find to

(01:15:16):
be pretty damn fascinating. But but yeah, dude, it's just
weird Hathor bull things, and why is all that coming around? Dude?

Speaker 6 (01:15:25):
You know, that's really interesting. I actually had somebody hire
me because I do. People reach out and they're like, hey,
can he analyze my dream? I've done a lot of
artwork feedback for people, people who are doing a series,
and they're like, I want to encode more symbolism, or
I'm really interested in the sign, what can I do here?

Speaker 2 (01:15:43):
Whatever?

Speaker 6 (01:15:43):
So I do consultations with people all the time, but
this woman hired me to Actually I don't know who
illustrated it, but it was a Chris Bledsoe sighting. It
was a painting of a Chris Bledsoe thing. Wow, And
I remember seeing the bull and is there a woman
wearing white a white gown or something. That's that's what
he says.

Speaker 2 (01:15:59):
Stories Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 6 (01:16:01):
So I had a whole hour long discussion about that
one painting and about all the symbolism that was going
on there. I just have to say, because it sounds
like you guys are interested in this kind of stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:16:11):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:16:12):
Ufology was a huge part of my life for many years.
I don't talk about it so much, but whenever it's appropriate.

Speaker 2 (01:16:18):
I definitely bring it to the table.

Speaker 6 (01:16:20):
I used to have military grade night vision goggles because
I really wanted to see what was going on, you know,
up in the sky. And I heard this guy on
Coast to coast. His name was Ed Grimsley, and he
said he joined the military. He had he was given
night vision goggles for his services, you know, or for duty,
for active duty. He said he looked up in the
sky and he saw all this bizarre stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:16:42):
And I was like, oh shit.

Speaker 6 (01:16:43):
I'm like, I didn't know you could even do that,
Like I didn't know that was a thing. And so
sure enough I bought these goggles. I saw all sorts
of wild stuff for a number of years, got really
involved kind of in a way with the local UFO
community of sorts. But and I saw my own or
and I had interactions with orbs and you know, that's
a whole conversation or whatever, but it reminded me that

(01:17:07):
there's a group of people. So there's a mountain in
the Pacific Northwest called Mount Adams, and there's a guy's
names James Gilliland and he runs this kind of like
it's almost like a camp or something, and it's right
at the base of Mount Adams, and people will travel
from all over the world to go there for UFO sidings,

(01:17:28):
and so I've been there a couple of different times.
I actually don't live too far from there right now.
I'm probably like forty five minutes away or something. And
one of their main things is feline beings that if
you go like into their shop, there's like multiple works
of art and there's multiple things. When you talk to
people who've been there a lot, that is one of
their sort of things is that there's like a feline

(01:17:49):
species out there that multiple people have had contact with
and they swear up and down that like this is
like the deal and there's something kind of going on there.

Speaker 2 (01:17:57):
So just wanted to throw that out there. You're not alone.

Speaker 6 (01:18:00):
I don't know how much you looked into that specifically,
but that is interesting, dude.

Speaker 1 (01:18:03):
That is awesome, you know, because you sound kind of
crazy whenever you say stories like that. Oh no, yeah,
yeah dude, and man, just the whole all right. So
you were talking about how you kind of had experiences
with orbs. I wanted before we get into that. You
mentioned night vision goggles, and I started doing a little
bit of research into like the older night vision goggles,

(01:18:26):
Like and you hear stories about what people were seeing
in certain fighter planes and they would look out and
be like what the fuck wiser dragon out here, and
like weird like esoteric kind of things that were going on.
And I found out that they were actually using dycianin
goggles originally, which is like this purple powder that comes
from a seashell down south somewhere, and and it was

(01:18:50):
like the only way that you can get your hands
on any kind of purple dye originally came from this
one type of mollusk or seashell or something like that.
And whenever it was turned into a powder form and
then you you know, put glass on either side of it,
somehow it would you know, give the effect of night
vision goggles. And so people would look up and allegedly

(01:19:10):
see alien ships and dragons and all of these crazy
things and you know, and and so I really started
doing a little bit of research on that, and I
was like, man, I got to get me a pair.
And then I looked at him and they were like,
I don't know, like five hundred bucks. I was like, man,
not right now, but actually, but what are your experiences
with orbs? And like, what do you think is actually

(01:19:30):
going on?

Speaker 2 (01:19:32):
Yeah? Man, I mean it's a huge, huge topic.

Speaker 6 (01:19:36):
Well, I'll let you know what I saw and then
I'll get into what I think you know is kind
of going on. And in many ways too, it should
be no surprise I have more questions than answers. You know,
the more stuff I've seen, the more questions I have.
But I ordered these goggles. I paid a lot for them.
I took out a credit card just to buy them,
and I went to a specific vendor. And this vendor

(01:19:58):
actually is aware that people are buying night vision goggles
for the purpose of looking at UFOs and everything else
up there. Really, so he'll yeah, the guy actually gave me,
like the a lot of good helpful advice on like
the model to buy and everything else. And so anyways,
so it was monocular, So it was just a one
eye sort of thing, and you maybe, you know the

(01:20:19):
pair that I had, you know, could attach to like
a helmet and like you know, or scope or something.

Speaker 1 (01:20:26):
Like that, like tactical stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:20:28):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 6 (01:20:29):
And so the first night I looked in the sky
with them, my mind was blown immediately because within a
minute or two minutes, I saw what people call a
t R three B, which is like a triangular craft,
and it hauled ass and it blew my mind. I'm like,
I could not believe what I was seeing. Funny enough,
you know, I thought I would see that like every night.

(01:20:50):
I only ended up seeing it like two more times
after that, after years and years and years of looking,
and I would go to the mountains, and I would
go to the desert or the coast, and you know,
I would see the most stuff always in the city.
I used to live in Portland, Oregon, and so the
wildest stuff I have ever seen has always been in
the city. So I'm inclined to think there is definitely
something going on with people that there's a reason why

(01:21:13):
you're not just going to see them out and about randomly.
At least that's been my experience right, but lots of lights,
lots of orbs. I basically, you know, I showed several
friends who had really they saw something trippy. I didn't
see it because they had the knight vision, you know,
people like like well up in tiers with what they

(01:21:33):
were seeing and everything.

Speaker 1 (01:21:35):
What do you think they do it in the city
for Do you think it's because of the light pollution
that kind of shields most people's eyes from seeing it.

Speaker 6 (01:21:42):
I think, ultimately, at the end of the day, I
think that there is a I don't know what you
want to refer to it. Probably the simplest way putting
it was, I think that there's definitely a like spiritual
component going on here. So a lot of people for
a long time have said that, you know, there's a
relationship with like demons and angels and and UFOs and whatever.
I showed a Muslim friend one time and he saw stuff.

(01:22:05):
We would see stuff all the time, and he goes,
maybe those are gin up there. You know, they're not
moving around like traditional crafts. It's almost like they're moving
around and it almost feels like there's something kind of
alive about them, you know. So I think there's something
going on there. So I think with that in mind,
there's something with people with that whole entire dynamic, the
spiritual potential, demonic or angelic sort of you know dynamic there.

(01:22:29):
So they have a reason to be there because there's
so many people there, you know, whatever the program is,
whatever the big sort of construct is, you know, I
don't really know, but that's one thing for sure that
I'll say is that there's definitely a relationship with like
the density of people. And I saw more stuff when
there was more people around, funny enough, which does make
the main story.

Speaker 1 (01:22:50):
It does make sense that he would consider it to
be GIN because gin aren't necessarily always good or bad,
you know, they're kind of a little mix.

Speaker 2 (01:22:57):
Of both, right, yeah, I think so, yeah, yeah, exactly. So.

Speaker 6 (01:23:02):
I mean the clearest example of something intelligent being associated
with these things was one night we were out in
the field. I was looking and I have this laser
as well, or had a laser, and I would, you know,
point it at anything that was moving, so my wife
could sometimes see what I'm pointing at, or sometimes it'll
illuminate or whatever. And of course was very very like

(01:23:25):
you know, conscious of not pointing it at a plane,
not pointing it at a helicopter or whatever. And so
what I saw though, was I saw an orb of
light and then I saw a denser ball of light,
and they were kind of like moving around each other.
It almost kind of looked like a dogfight, like with
fighter planes or something. So I pointed my laser, I
hit one. As soon as I hit it, the dense

(01:23:47):
ball of light completely took off, and then the orb
stuck around and the orb basically descended from the sky
and then started sweeping the horizon. And there were trees
maybe about my best estimate would be like one hundred
yards away, and I thought that the ORB was going
to disappear behind the trees, and it did not. It

(01:24:07):
actually was in front of the trees. And I'm pointing
at it with my laser the whole entire time. So
my wife, because she didn't have the night vision, she
couldn't see it, but she saw sort of the trajectory
of the action or whatever. And then this orb started
coming towards us. It basically swept the horizon, went even lower,
started hovering over the ground. She basically came to us

(01:24:30):
and then actually threw us what oh and so, and
then of course we were like tripping out. We couldn't believe.
I couldn't believe because I was the one seeing it,
and I just, you know, I kind of got like
the shivers or like goose bumps or something like that.
And then that was kind of it for the night.
We're like, Okay, we're not going to see anything easier
than that, so we're we're good for now, you know.

(01:24:52):
But I'll say after this first couple of years of
looking for stuff, things really opened up and I started
seeing naked eye sightings. And so the trippiest thing I
saw from a naked eye perspective was we were taking
a bus from Philly to New York and right when
we were entering the city, there was this crazy metallic

(01:25:15):
blob thing that was hovering like multiple feet above a building,
and it was like irridescent, and it was shiny, and
it was doing all these things and it was basically
it felt like it was morphing into itself and it
was kind of like, you know, absolving itself into itself.
It was very, very bizarre, and we saw it for
probably like twenty seconds, and so I showed her. She

(01:25:37):
saw that we didn't need night vision. Is during the
day and so it just felt very very odd. It
felt it really felt intelligent. It felt like, you know,
it defied physics and gravity and everything else. So my
mind couldn't make heads or tails of like what I
was actually seeing.

Speaker 4 (01:25:53):
With that one.

Speaker 7 (01:25:54):
It definitely wasn't some sort of my lar balloon, Like,
oh no, I know that that sounds funny. I have
seen a mylar balloon in the sky before, and it
was red and I was like, this is the weirdest
thing I've ever seen, Like because the sun was hitting
it just right, and I was like, oh my god,
I'm having a.

Speaker 5 (01:26:08):
Broad daylight sighting right now, you know.

Speaker 7 (01:26:10):
And then I was like, wait a minute. And as
it got a little closer, I could see the string
hanging from I.

Speaker 5 (01:26:15):
Was like, oh man, they got gotcha. They got me.

Speaker 2 (01:26:18):
No, it does.

Speaker 4 (01:26:20):
It was.

Speaker 2 (01:26:21):
It was really really trippy.

Speaker 1 (01:26:22):
It does seem to be a spiritual thing every single
time you see them, and it's like almost like connects
with you, you know, like spiritually in that sense. You know.
We've had like several sightings, you know, seeing orbs out there,
and it's usually in times when it's like you're getting
people together that you love, you know. I had a

(01:26:43):
sighting with my kids, and then my niece and nephew.
Me and Sean have had sightings before. Me and our
buddy Nick, we've had sightings, both Sean and I with him,
and it always seems to be like something like like
a special time that you see them, you know, And
I know that sounds kind of crazy, but like don't.

(01:27:03):
That's why I don't necessarily attribute to them, attribute to
them like demonic in that sense. And maybe that's just
our experience and how are we able to pull any
kind of actual information just by looking at some kind
of light in the sky. But it does feel like
there's some kind of connection that's being had. As a
matter of fact, it was like back in April, me

(01:27:26):
and somebody, you know, a listener of the show. We
were in Florida for this convention, right and we went outside.
We were tripping on psychedelics, I do want to say that,
but we went outside and we were able to see
I should you not, probably twenty or thirty of these orbs,
all going in one general direction over a tree line,
and some of them are a lot brighter, some of

(01:27:47):
them are very dim. But it was like, you know,
the person that I was with shout out to enough,
said Steph. Person I was with, she said, she goes,
it almost looks like they're working like it almost looks
like they're going from point A to point B and
point B to point A and just back and forth.
And man, I don't know what the hell to make
of it, but I'm just I'm happy as hell with

(01:28:08):
the timeline we're living in because this.

Speaker 6 (01:28:10):
Is awesome, right, you know what I will say my
personal hunches, I think that these things are their origin
is much closer than what we realize, like where they
come from and where they go to. So I think
that there's something sort of earth bound or sort of
you know, either within the Earth or something along those lines.

Speaker 2 (01:28:33):
They've been around for a really really long time.

Speaker 6 (01:28:36):
I personally, you know, I don't think they come from
like other like systems or planets or stars.

Speaker 2 (01:28:41):
Or anything like that. I think that's kind of an inversion.

Speaker 6 (01:28:43):
Actually, I think that they've actually they've been here for
for who knows how long, you know, before us. You
know that maybe they're the watchers or these old things
that are discussed in the Bible or whatever. But yeah,
it's very interesting stuff. And I think that every single
you know, every generation, I think it kind of updates
their perspective on this stuff. So you know, some people

(01:29:04):
would refer to them as angels because that's what they're
comfortable with, or they might refer to them as fairies
because that's what they're exposed to. So it would make
sense as people who grew up with sci fi and
all this stuff, that we would refer to them as
like aliens or whatever.

Speaker 7 (01:29:18):
Well, I think what's really interesting, and I'd like to
take it back to what you said before as far
as the center kind of going outward and coming back,
and so these things, of course, they've been around forever,
probably since the beginning of time, if there is such
a thing, and so you weren't always seeing these things,
and so only when you became interested after your studies

(01:29:39):
and you know, you got the night vision goggles and
you started to look into the things, then you started
to see them, so like that inner world became your
outer world, and then you were able to see it
without the night vision goggles and kind of just with
the naked eye. And so I think that that's very,
very fascinating and really goes along really nicely with what
we always say here on this show is like everybody's right,

(01:30:01):
because whatever it is that you think it is and
believe in and really put energy into is probably what
it is for you, you know, And.

Speaker 6 (01:30:08):
So sure, sure, yeah, yeah, no, for sure. Yeah, there's
a whole esoteric side of things. I definitely got into,
you know, black magic and certain occult authors that had
their own opinion about these things and how to like
contact these things and all sorts of other stuff. So
there's a whole science, kind of an occult science or

(01:30:29):
whatever you want to say with that as well.

Speaker 1 (01:30:31):
Oh yeah, so with all the CE five and then
you go back and like look at the father of
modern rocket tree with Jack Parsons, and that's essentially kind
of what he was doing out there in the desert.
And ye wild things, dude. I think that these things
have been around a lot long, like a very long time.
They've just you know, we've named them different things.

Speaker 2 (01:30:50):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:30:53):
Weird man. I love this kind of stuff. And you
are just a full on encyclopedia of information. I mean
I could alessly just listened to Press all damn night.
The way that you're able to retain as much information
as you do. I'm jealous, I'm not gonna lie because
we talk about a lot of things, but I feel
like only about you know, maybe thirty percent of it
or whatever is retained, which I feel like I'm going

(01:31:15):
pretty good with that. But you you're like collect, You're like, babe,
Ruth over there, just fucking.

Speaker 5 (01:31:18):
Bat in thousand. It's haunching it all up, dude.

Speaker 7 (01:31:21):
I did want to ask you one more question, and
if you don't know the answer, that's totally fine because
it's more of a psychological thing. But I wanted to
point this in regards to the symbolism thing, as far
as like someone like yourself can look at something and
see the symbolism and whether or not you respond to
it or not, like emotionally or on that mental level,
how is it that most people that aren't looking into

(01:31:43):
this stuff is affected by it? Like you said earlier,
as far as creating artwork for advertisements, as far as
you know, the things that you've created, you've added symbolism.
People really kind of revere putting that symbolism into things.
Why is it that the normal person it could be
effected by something like this. Is it something that's just
passed down through information somehow or how why is it

(01:32:06):
so universal in that sense?

Speaker 2 (01:32:08):
Yeah, yeah, No, these are great questions, man.

Speaker 6 (01:32:11):
You know, one of the things I think is that
I really do feel as though we have this kind
of almost hardwired into us, right, that we're going to have.
You know, the color blue is going to probably resonate
on some sort of level. You know, certain tones, you know,
which are also symbolic, They're going to resonate with us.
And so you know, certain animals or creatures or whatever,

(01:32:31):
the serpent right, or you hear a hiss or something
like that, it's like there's going to be like a
visceral sort of like thing going on there. And I
think that symbolism kind of works the same way in
many ways. But culturally, there's cultures who have different opinions
about what these symbols mean. So, you know, one culture
sees the moon as being very feminine, but there's other
cultures who see it as being very masculine. Right, Okay,

(01:32:53):
So there's going to be the cultural overlay, you know,
I think for everybody and like where you grew up
and how you grew up and every thing else. But
I also think there's going to be a lot of
things that are basically sort of baked into your kind
of awareness, like your symbolic awareness.

Speaker 2 (01:33:07):
Right.

Speaker 6 (01:33:07):
They found that people are going to basically, you know,
generate languages, you know, on their own. They'll create their
own language, you know, even if there's no sort of
language to kind of pattern off of, They're probably going
to generate their own language and their own understanding of
symbolism and everything else. And so I think though that
you know, people basically what people are exposed to symbolically

(01:33:30):
in today's world, just to put it simply as trash.
You know that you even just look at like buildings
from one hundred, two hundred, three hundred years ago, you
look at some of the artwork that people were producing,
you know, just a few hundred years ago versus what
people are producing today. You know, the quality has just
gone down so so much. And so what people are

(01:33:52):
exposed to on a daily basis, you know, is very
very low level. It's very low, like on a vibrational
sort of level. And you can make the case that
part of this is by design, you know, and I
think kind of goes back to what Jonathan said earlier,
is just the devolving of mankind, you know, I think
that's totally true, And actually I have a book recommendation

(01:34:13):
that relates to some of the things we've been talking about.
But the author that I mentioned earlier, Renege, went on
one of his pre eminent works is called The Crisis
of the Modern World, and he basically goes through on
a metaphysical symbolic level, how we've come to this point,
how have we devolved so much? And it's because of

(01:34:33):
this removal of the center basically, like long story short,
and so if there's ever going to be like a
return of the Golden Age and our artwork is going
to speak to us on like a spiritual level and
really kind of kind of get us back in line
with the divine that it's going to be through the
return of the center and in my opinion, through the
return of polar symbolism. And there's a lot to be said.

(01:34:54):
There's a lot of people who are becoming more and
more interested, you know, in all of this stuff. So
on one level, I think that what people are seeing,
for the most part, symbolically, I don't think it's really
helping them out. I don't think it's really helping society
out or humanity out. But on another level, too, a
lot of people like, especially in the conspiratorial sort of world,

(01:35:15):
they like to say that they're putting symbols out, the
illuminatis putting symbols out, and they're putting you through a
ritual as an example, you know, or that they're initiating
you by putting out these symbols you know, in this
music video or whatever. And I don't really see it. Actually,
it doesn't really work that way, you know, in my opinion,
I maybe used to think that like years and years
and years ago, but I don't really think that anymore.

(01:35:36):
Like initiation is really participatory. Actually you have to participate
in it. It's not a passive thing. And most people
are just passively consuming or seeing all of these different symbols.

Speaker 5 (01:35:46):
Yea.

Speaker 6 (01:35:47):
And there's also like a hypnotic aspect with all this
stuff too, right, I mean, watching a movie or listening
to certain music or doing certain things, you know, it
puts you in a certain sort of hypnotic state, right,
and then the simbos actually can permeate, you know, sort
of your awareness or consciousness more, you know, because you're
more suggestible at that point completely. Yeah, yeah, you're more

(01:36:08):
suggestible for sure. But yeah, you know, I think personally,
I have this. I think we are divine creatures, you know.
I don't think that we're just physical, you know, or
just material beings, you know. I think we're spiritual creatures
having a physical experience. Yes, And when we're talking about
sort of like spirituality that actually has this sort of

(01:36:30):
vertical orientation associated with it, and this is part of
the primordial tradition. In polar tradition, people have this vertical orientation,
and you have this vertical orientation by going within and
by accessing your center. In today's world, people have a
horizontal orientation. So it becomes about the masses, it becomes
about everyone else, you know. Uh, there's no hierarchy, you know.

(01:36:51):
In my opinion, the way I kind of look at
it now is there's a hierarchy in the spirit realm
that actually exists. And if that's completely flannd out, then
nobody's going up that ladder, nobody's actually ascending, or no
one's actually communing with the divine that way.

Speaker 2 (01:37:07):
So I think, yeah, I don't know if I answered
your question there, Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:37:13):
I'll tell you what we You know, we are a
couple of dudes who absolutely believe in divine timing. And
it's so interesting that we have you now because just uh,
the episode before last, we really got to the center
of really trying to get to the center of who
you are and what we are in that sense and

(01:37:34):
about how you know, you like that God or or
the universe or whatever, it's not out there. You don't
have to pray to it out there, you don't have
to reach for it out there or anything that that
is all essentially like rate inside of you, Like the
Kingdom of Heaven is within kind of thing. And and
if people just remember that and bring themselves back to

(01:37:54):
that center, it's always there. It's just really subtle.

Speaker 4 (01:37:58):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:37:58):
And and that's something that you know, we we really
started to get to, uh, to the core of And dude,
whenever you know, you walk around with that level of awareness,
just knowing that you're not just some hapless human in
a meat suit that is at the at the at
the b hist of some you know, God or whatever
or of some religion, man, it really changes things big time.

(01:38:22):
And and and there is no such thing anymore as
any kind of victim mentality and and it's just essentially
just about mastering yourself in that point and you know,
there's actually one of our favorite quotes is by Roomy
and Rumy says that I was looking for God. Uh no,
he goes, yeah, I was looking for God and all

(01:38:43):
I could find was myself. And so I went looking
for myself and all I could find was God. And
I was like, man, that is that's everything that you
need right there, you know, in a nutshell essentially. So man,
we're divine timing. So yeah, this was awesome. Man, this
was uh, this was amazing. Thank you so much for
coming on the show today. But if you could, you know,

(01:39:05):
I wanted to ask you because we always have to
do a tarot reading at the end of every episode.
We normally just do one card for the episode. Are
you like as symbolically understood as you are? Like, do
you have a pretty like good understanding of the tarot?

Speaker 2 (01:39:20):
Oh? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:39:22):
Actually, you know, the tarot is something that I spend
time with every day and I've been doing you know,
I started symbolic studies in twenty twenty and I think
maybe it was late twenty twenty or early twenty twenty
one is when I started doing tarot readings for people,
and so literally every day I'm spending time with the
cards and as a system, it's really fascinating and it

(01:39:44):
has given me so many insights. So yeah, that's probably
one of my strongest sort of tools in my toolkit
is the Tarot deck.

Speaker 1 (01:39:51):
Yeah, man, we got to get there. And that's something
that like, you know, we've been doing, you know, just
a one card read for the past two years that
we've been doing this, you know, just towards the end
of the episode, and and we feel like we're slowly
coming along as far as understanding the symbolism. Just you know,
you get a lot of the same cards over again
and stuff like that. But we're not to that master

(01:40:12):
level yet. What what did you do to really get
to that level of just you're able to look at
a card and you know exactly what it means.

Speaker 2 (01:40:20):
Yeah, you know, it's so interesting to me.

Speaker 6 (01:40:22):
What I tell people all the time is that the
Tarot scales to your awareness, and it sort of scales
to your consciousness, and so if you're just getting into it,
you're gonna pick up a certain amount of symbolism. If
you've been into it ten years, you're gonna pick up
another level of symbolism. And then if you've been into
it twenty thirty years, you know there's still gonna be
things you don't know, and so so to me personally

(01:40:45):
with the Taro, I mean, I just spent a ton
of time with it for like a year straight almost
where I bought a deck and I would literally spend
every single day with the deck, looking at the cards,
meditating with the cards. There's all sorts of different practice
as you can do to kind of level up your
understanding of the cards. There's even meditations of going into

(01:41:05):
the cards, like literally going into the cards and writing
out kind of what you're getting from it. So I
did that with a small study group for a little
while there, and then you know, just buying buying you know,
tarot books and reading through them and everything else.

Speaker 2 (01:41:20):
What I try and tell.

Speaker 6 (01:41:21):
People though as well, is that you know, take it
one card at a time. So for whatever reason, if
you're really interested in your son sign. As an example,
let's just say you're Virgo, you know that corresponds with
the Hermit card. So it's like, spend time researching the
Hermit card. You're not gonna be able to compress years
and years and years of study into a small amount
of time really, and so to me, it's like have

(01:41:43):
quality time with the cards, but then have quality time
with the cards that are sort of speaking to you
right now. And there's certain cards that speak to me.
And you know, I've had like experiences with some cards
where it just like what the card represents and embodies
is like imprinted in my brain because I had this real,

(01:42:03):
actual sort of thing happen with it, versus just being
cerebral intellectual and just like reading about it or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:42:10):
So I try and tell people that too.

Speaker 6 (01:42:12):
Even though I spent a ton of time trying to
cram in as much as possible, I think I realized
over time that you actually just want to spend time
with the ones that actually interest you right now. And
that's what I've done with symbolism too. You know, I
don't read through these symbolic dictionaries from cover to cover.
I wait until there's a symbol that I'm really interested in,
and then I'm all in and I want to know

(01:42:32):
as much as possible about it.

Speaker 4 (01:42:34):
Damn.

Speaker 1 (01:42:35):
That's the way to do it, right there. That being said, Sean,
what is that card?

Speaker 5 (01:42:39):
Sir? We got the Nine of Swords?

Speaker 1 (01:42:43):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:42:44):
Gotcha? Okay? Interesting?

Speaker 6 (01:42:46):
What are you thinking, Well, I mean just have to
say I just brought up the hermit card. One interesting
thing that you can do, it's kind of a little tip,
is look at the numbered card in the major arcana
that corresponds with theber that you just pulled. Okay, so
when you actually do that, a whole nother level of
symbolism unlock. So with the nine of the major econa,

(01:43:08):
we're dealing with the hermit card, right, I just brought
that up. Oh wow, So the hermit has everything to
do with going within. There is a withdrawn sort of
nature with the hermit. The hermit goes and seeks isolation.
He's going through a period of isolation. This isolation is
all in an effort for him to sort of unveil
different parts of himself, right. Veil symbolism actually relates very

(01:43:29):
very strongly to virgo as well, the number nine as well.
You know, knowing something about numerology really helps. Have you
guys ever heard of the property of nine always coming
back to itself?

Speaker 5 (01:43:40):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I believe so.

Speaker 1 (01:43:41):
Yeah, like you know, five plus four and you know
if you get a bunch of nines that essentially just
comes back to zero, right.

Speaker 6 (01:43:48):
It always comes back to nine. And so so like
nine plus nine is eighteen. One plus eight is nine
nine two plus seven that's nine thirty six forty five.
And so no matter how many times you multiple nine
or add nine to itself, it always reduces back down
to nine.

Speaker 7 (01:44:03):
And you can keep going up as high as you
want with that itever still works exactly.

Speaker 6 (01:44:08):
Yeah, same thing when you have nine and use decimals,
So half of nine is four point five, half of
that is two point twenty five. So it works all
the way up and all the way down if you're
doubling or multiplying, or if you're like having right number
from nine, and so the number nine always seeks a
return back to self. It's kind of interesting that we're
talking about the center and everything else. The return to self,

(01:44:29):
it's a return to center. So while this card it
looks like this person, obviously they look distraught. You know,
they're having a sleepless night, right, they're having a restless night. Yeah,
we're talking about sword symbolism. So the sword relates to air.
The sword also relates.

Speaker 2 (01:44:45):
To the mind.

Speaker 6 (01:44:46):
The mind has a way of always projecting as well.
You just kind of like a sword, right. The tools
that relate to the masculine elements. The sword would be air,
and then the wand would be fire. Both of these tools,
the sword and the wand have this projection sort of
dynamic right with the wand it's like energy being sent forth,
just like the fallus basically. And so she's projecting ahead,

(01:45:09):
you know, she's projecting something. And so she's upright. She's
supposed to be horizontal, but she's actually upright right. And
notice that all of the swords are horizontal. That's supposed
to be where she's at. She's supposed to be resting, right,
and it said she's actually awake. I think that's one
of the brilliant things about that card specifically, is that
she breaks the pattern of this horizontal nature with everything.

Speaker 5 (01:45:30):
Oh wow.

Speaker 2 (01:45:30):
And so she is withdrawn, and so she has her
head in her hands, right, and so she's obviously like considering,
you know, she's thinking about something that probably has happened.
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:45:41):
That's kind of the way I look at it is that,
you know, the part she played in something right, or
what happened between her and someone else or whatever the circumstances.
But the thing, the hopeful thing about this card in
my opinion, and I don't see a negative card in
the deck. That's another one of my sort of things, right,
But there's a couple of hopeful things about it, and

(01:46:03):
one of them would be that we're almost at the
end of the line. So this is like, we're almost
at the ten here. This is the card just before
the end of this suit, right, excluding the Royal Court cards.
And so whatever circumstance she's going through, sort of the
finality or the end of that cycle is coming to
a close. We're really really near sort of that place. Also,

(01:46:27):
whatever she's going through, it's a restless night. It's not like,
you know, she's going to live another day, basically. You
know that basically the circumstance when you have sort of
fucked up or done something that you're not proud of,
it can feel very devastating and you need to feel
that too, you know, in a way, but it's not

(01:46:48):
something it's not as sort of earth shattering or sky
falling as it can kind of feel in the moment, right,
And so I think that whatever circumstance this woman is
going through, it's going to be a very similar sort
of thing that she's gonna mend. She'll figure things out.
Because we're talking about sword symbolism. One thing that always
comes up, what does the sword do? The sword cuts,

(01:47:10):
the sword severs, the sword pierces, and so the sword
is our greatest tool to let things go, and it
often is related to letting things go. So there's always
probably a dynamic when I think about this card, something
that had to be let go, you know, a relationship
or whatever. It might be some sort of circumstance or whatever.

(01:47:31):
And this can be a positive thing or a negative thing. Ultimately,
I think it's all for the positive, you know, even
though you're going to feel emotional about it perhaps, of course,
so the sword is always there to help us alleviate
some baggage and kind of get some weight off of
our shoulders. And this is sort of a key that
I am reminded of all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:47:52):
Living lightly. You really want to live lightly.

Speaker 6 (01:47:55):
You don't want to be weighed down by the world
and sort of your circumstances. We're all sort of journeying
through life. And so just like a true traveler or journeyer,
just like the fool, the full card, the first card
of the major kana, you know, symbolic of zero he's
living lightly, he's smelling the roses, and he carries very

(01:48:18):
little with him. He has a pole with him with
a little sack. It's called a bindle, and so he
is basically traveling, but he's not way down with baggage.
And so the sword is always there to help us
sort of alleviate some baggage. And we all need to
do this every once in a while. Actually, you don't
want to be too wayhed down by your circumstances. You

(01:48:38):
don't want to be too way down by the world
that's operating on the outside of the wheel, you know,
to get to the inside of the wheel. That's actually
you want to be light and you want to take
things sort of as they come, moment by moment. There's
even rituals that relate to this, the Waning of the
Soul's ritual in ancient Egypt. When you die, your heart
is weighed against the feather of maat, the feather of truth.

(01:49:00):
If it's lighter than the feather, that is favorable for
the afterlife transition. If it's heavier than a feather, that
is not favorable for the afterlife transition. So so I
see it that you know this woman is struggling there,
but it's it's not the end of the world, and
you know, this cycle is definitely kind of coming to
a close there.

Speaker 2 (01:49:18):
And so again they withdrawn sort of dynamics.

Speaker 6 (01:49:20):
Sometimes you need to go through, you know, tough circumstances
and trials and tribulations, and what you realize when you're
actually going through something that is a struggle or an
obstacle or a roadblock, it sometimes feels as though the
world is against you. But what you'll find is your
struggles are often i would say, actually all the time.

(01:49:40):
It's just sometimes hard to see it. They're all gifts
in disguise. There's something to be learning there.

Speaker 7 (01:49:45):
Oh absolutely, dude. That was incredible and now we're going
to go through all of them, so I hope you have.
That was very very impressive man. All right, man, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:49:55):
No, no, no, I appreciate.

Speaker 7 (01:49:56):
I don't think I've ever because we've pulled this card
several times, and I don't think i've ever. I mean,
sure we have our book and everything and it's great,
but that was just super.

Speaker 1 (01:50:04):
Ever went that deep? Yeah, that and right now, that's
better than any explanation that we've ever read, for sure.

Speaker 7 (01:50:10):
So and from now on going forward, every episode, you
were going to be our tarot correspondent and we're just
gonna follow you randomly.

Speaker 2 (01:50:18):
I'm happy to do it. Man's with you?

Speaker 1 (01:50:20):
Yeah, man, this was such a very This episode was
so great man, and we we really appreciate you coming
and spending the night with it or spending the night
with us, And well, I guess you kind of did.
This is a this is an awesome conversation. If you could,
could you let our listeners, we call them the one,
could you let them know where they could find you, sir?

Speaker 2 (01:50:41):
Yeah, of course.

Speaker 6 (01:50:42):
So Symbolic Studies dot com is the best place to
find all my stuff. From there, you can you know,
find my YouTube or Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, things like that.
I am available for tarot readings right so if people
want a personal session with the tarot, we can definitely
set that up. You can purchase a reading on my site.
I have a Patreon as well, Patreon dot com slash

(01:51:02):
Symbolic Studies and I'm actually going through the major Arcona
right now. So I'm about to release an episode on
the Star card and each episode is about an hour long,
and so that means that I have like sixteen or
seventeen hours worth of content just for the tarot. So
I'm doing the whole entire major econa. So when it's

(01:51:23):
all said and done, it'll be like twenty two twenty
three hours long something like that. So I've been working
on that for like many, many months. And so people,
if they sign up for my Patreon, you can also
sign up through my site too, they'll have access to that.
And I've got a podcast and a bunch of other
things going on. But Symbolic Studies dot com is where
you can find everything awesowesome.

Speaker 1 (01:51:41):
We will have that, dude, We'll have that laying down
in the show notes below. And yeah, man, this was
such an enlightening conversation and we will definitely have to
do it again if you're.

Speaker 5 (01:51:51):
Up for it.

Speaker 6 (01:51:52):
Oh, I'm definitely into it, man, No, this is a
great time. You guys are super chill. I appreciated the
conversation for multiple reasons, so yeah, absolutely, well do it again.

Speaker 7 (01:52:00):
Oh for sure, dude, definitely. You know I love those episodes.
While in the middle of the episode, I just think
to myself, like, this is one of my favorite episodes.
This is so fucking awesome. Information and everything is just
so so deep and resonant. Dude, So thanks man, of course,
of course, yeah, so good.

Speaker 1 (01:52:18):
All right, well, look we are going to get over
to the meditation. For those of you that want to
join us in said meditation, then come over to patreon
dot com slash metamistics. That link is down the show
notes below. It's the best way to be able to
support us if you sign up over there. We have
several tiers. We have the cheapest tier, which will give
you access to be able to get the shows a
couple of days in advance. You'll be able to see

(01:52:38):
all of the video content. It'll be completely commercial free,
and you'll be able to slide into our dms. Maybe
you have a suggestion for the show, or maybe you
just want to be able to reach out to us personally.
Either way, we answer those every day. And then we
have the Wonder Wiz Day Tier, which is eight dollars
and eighty eight cents a month, and with that you
get everything that I just mentioned. Plus you can join

(01:53:00):
us every Wednesday night at nine pm Central for the
live show and sometimes we have a guest, sometimes we
just bring a cool topic. But either way we're getting
the you know the coven together and uh, that's what
we like to do. So if you want to be
a part of that, go ahead and click the show
notes down below. But also I will have Mario your
your link down there as well for anybody that wants
to be able to come and check you out. And uh, yeah,

(01:53:23):
that being said, we're gonna get over to the meditation.

Speaker 8 (01:53:25):
But if Symbolic Studies came here and he taught you anything,
it's that you don't know what you don't know, So
I'll just get weird, stay weird.

Speaker 4 (01:53:37):
Sean, what do you think, bud dude?

Speaker 5 (01:53:47):
That was? That was amazing?

Speaker 4 (01:53:49):
Man.

Speaker 7 (01:53:49):
I think that that's a really good a good one,
especially for people that are maybe questioning their ability to
get into that that meditative state, you know, because like
and asking that question to your higher self. You know,
I don't know if it was if it happened for you,
but it was more of like a It wasn't a
thing where I had to kind of calculate, you know,

(01:54:12):
and try to, you know, what what kind of answer
should I give myself. It was it was pretty pretty
much just like almost like when you're in a past
life regression and you're you're asking those questions to your
higher self. It's it's it's matter of fact, and it
is in a very a very kind way. It's not
like harsh. It's not like the the ego side of

(01:54:32):
yourself that can really just you know, talk shit and
like make you feel bad. This was more of the
of the enlightened version of yourself. And it was like,
so spot on. I mean, I'm not gonna that question.
And answer was was for me, you know what I mean,
because it was a little bit personal, but I'm so
good dude.

Speaker 5 (01:54:50):
You know.

Speaker 7 (01:54:50):
It's like it's like I was saying, though it was
it was a really good test to you know, understand
or or at least see how deep you can get
within a meditation, you know, because if it happens like that,
it's like, well, I'm not even gonna question it, dude,
you know, because it felt so honest and so pure,
if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (01:55:11):
And and coming to the understanding that we have, it's like, man,
once you know what that is, doesn't it just make
it so much more comfortable to be in that zone?

Speaker 5 (01:55:24):
Mm hm, oh, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:55:25):
It's not it is home. Like that's the thing is
that it is the most familiar place you'll ever go,
yet most people don't even know it's there, not consciously anyway.

Speaker 7 (01:55:36):
No, No, And to think of the you know, the
people that never will you know what I mean, they're
just so immersed in the physical and in the you know,
the outside world, you know, and not even they'll never
see that inside world. And it's kind of a it's
kind of a bomber Man because it's it's definitely there's
definitely some genius there, if you will.

Speaker 1 (01:55:58):
You know what it makes me think of, like just
imagine all these places that were, you know, built around
trying to find the most energetically perfect place to be
able to go and meditate, whether it's inside of a
pyramid in the king's chamber, or it's on certain meridian

(01:56:19):
meridian line, or you know, whatever the case may be,
you know, wherever the center of the world is, or
or anything like that. If like, dude, I'm telling you,
we need to go out to that place in Arizona,
what is the name of that place where everybody goes.

Speaker 5 (01:56:33):
Oh, yeah, fucking.

Speaker 1 (01:56:38):
Damn, you lived there.

Speaker 5 (01:56:39):
I know.

Speaker 1 (01:56:39):
I always forget too.

Speaker 7 (01:56:42):
Yeh know, It's fine, I'll figure it out before we're done,
I promise you.

Speaker 1 (01:56:46):
Yeah, not Soma or Sonora. It's something like that.

Speaker 5 (01:56:51):
Damn it, dude.

Speaker 7 (01:56:52):
It's where all the fucking spiritual people go to. It's
like so stupid, well, uh, we'll cut this out. We'll
cut this out.

Speaker 5 (01:57:01):
It's uh, I want to try to get before you do.

Speaker 1 (01:57:05):
I was, I know you were Sedona, Sedona.

Speaker 5 (01:57:09):
God damnit, he so stupid. You caught me outside of
my higher self state. So it just comes on me.

Speaker 1 (01:57:17):
That's just coming down from the treehouse, right, Yeah, Sidona.
I wonder what it is like. It has to be
so amazing to to just meditate out there and then
imagine tripping out there that.

Speaker 7 (01:57:30):
I just be oh God, yeah, no, I can. I
can almost guarantee that it would be like one of
the best places, because, like Mario was saying, you know,
all of these different cultures around the world, they believe that,
you know, their their center, their you know, temple, whatever
it is that's in the center of their village is
the most powerful, uh space, it's the most spiritual or

(01:57:52):
the most whatever they want to whatever flavor they want
to put on it, you know. And so if you
truly believe that, you know, regardless if it's on one
of those lines on the Earth, and you know, all
of you, you can get.

Speaker 5 (01:58:05):
As weird as you want with it.

Speaker 7 (01:58:06):
But I think if you believe that, then you're definitely
going to have an awesome experience.

Speaker 1 (01:58:12):
Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. And what's interesting is is that,
especially Sedona, it's located on that thirty third parallel that
beople talk as it is. Yeah, you know, of course
it is, yeah, it says Sidona. Arizona is located along
the thirty third parallel and is famous for its stunning
red rock formations and energy vortexes, which may which attract

(01:58:33):
many visitors seeking spiritual experiences. This latitude line is also
significant in various cultures and is associated with other notable
locations such as Asheville, North Carolina.

Speaker 7 (01:58:45):
I'm still kind of embarrassed that I couldn't remember. I've
never been there. I've lived here my whole life, never
been there. So we'll definitely have to make a trip,
for sure. I don't know why, but I can visualize
you like finding some random boulder and you're just like
sitting up there by yourself, like just doing your thing.

Speaker 5 (01:59:00):
Like I already see that happening.

Speaker 7 (01:59:01):
For some reason, yeah, I could picture that. It's probably
happening right now.

Speaker 1 (01:59:04):
But just like I imagine, you know, how much more
that could be. Because the ancients believe that, you know,
and they believed it for some kind of reason. They
believed it for good reason. Why else would you align
pyramids and certain structures perfectly square with the exact star
that you're trying to be like exactly beneath, you know.

(01:59:25):
And and that's what I'm trying to say, is imagine
what we just meditated on for ten minutes and amplify
that by sitting somewhere else in a more energetic vortex
kind of place. I wonder what that experience would be.

Speaker 7 (01:59:39):
Oh God, and I bet you the sky is amazing
over there.

Speaker 5 (01:59:42):
It has to be just ridiculous.

Speaker 1 (01:59:45):
Yeah, I bet you. They're like real, you know, conscious
of light pollution and stuff over there too.

Speaker 7 (01:59:51):
Oh, I'm almost certain of it. Oh yeah, dude, they
had a lot of places like that. It's very beautiful
from what I've heard, you know, in the pictures I've seen.
But yeah, dude, we'll definitely have to take a trip
out there.

Speaker 5 (02:00:00):
Sure.

Speaker 7 (02:00:00):
Yeah, I mean, let's be honest, dude, Like I know
that we like to look into the weird stuff and
like the parallel that you were talking about and everything else.
But like, let's be honest, like the center is everywhere
we go, Yeah, radio everywhere is the center.

Speaker 1 (02:00:13):
Yeah, I mean, we radiate outward, as you said, And
I thought that that was actually perfect, the way that
you're kind of bringing in neoplatonism and talking about the
one that goes into the news, that goes into the world,
soul goes into the physical world. And I think that
there is a microcosm macrocosm kind of thing to that
that maybe that is what our physical reality is, but
maybe it starts on the inward and expands outward and

(02:00:37):
then there's emanations emanating from you, you know what I mean?

Speaker 7 (02:00:43):
Oh, absolutely, I mean, and that's going on pretty hardcore
right now, you know what I mean. People choose what
they want to see, they see it, they get more
either disturbed by it or or you know, like it
just depends on what's going on inside of you. And
so you know, I don't think it's any coincidence that
we start to see an influx in certain things in
the sky, you know, or or when we're having certain

(02:01:05):
conversations and we're talking about something that's very important to us.
It means a lot to us, and then we see
something it's like our inner world literally reflecting back to
us from our outer world.

Speaker 1 (02:01:15):
Yeah, that's what we're seeing, dude. It definitely feels like that.
And just by taking all this information and actually applying
it to your life. Man, it's one thing to know
it and to hear people talk about it, and even
to talk about it yourself and think about it, but
to put it into action, Dude, I'm telling you, Like
the stuff that we talk about and you know this,
but like everybody else, the stuff that we talk about

(02:01:37):
and the stuff that we contemplate on and think about
and just obsess over and just really try and understand
it all, it's like and you put that into action
and like you know, actually use it almost as a
center point, you know, to be able to look at
you know, through the through this lens out into the world. Man,
it really does all start from the inner world. Like

(02:01:58):
there's no doubt about it like that. I don't even
question that, Like it is one hundred percent whatever is
going on in the outer world is a reflection of
the inner world. That is a foregone conclusion.

Speaker 7 (02:02:09):
Now, Yeah, and I think the hardest part is just
getting yourself centered and getting yourself that level of awareness.
You know, all these things are easier said than done.
We've said that before. I mean, even understanding a lot
of the things that we understand, we still find ourselves,
or at least I find myself, you know, having to go,
oh yeah, and like remind myself and then try to
get back to that that awareness of just the present

(02:02:32):
moment and everything else. And so, you know, I think
that's that's all it takes, is you know, knowing who
you are and just go from there. Man, but just
constantly reminding yourself until you don't have to anymore, and
then you're just embodying it.

Speaker 1 (02:02:46):
You're just like I am bliss at that, you know
what I mean.

Speaker 5 (02:02:49):
Embodied.

Speaker 1 (02:02:51):
Yeah, it's funny because I was. I've been really struggling
these past couple of days because I lost my wallet
and I can't find the damn thing, and I'm going
through the motions, you know, tore apart my car, I
tore apart my apartment. I even went back to the
place that I used it last, and of course nobody
was of any kind of help over there, and and
I'm you know, I dud the past couple of days,

(02:03:12):
I've been doing spells, I've been doing rituals, I've been
doing meditations. I'm like, dude, I busted out the dowsing
rods to try and find these fucking things and it
is nowhere, like it's just gone. And so in that meditation,
that's all I was really trying to do, like you know,
ask your high, yourself, any kind of question. And I

(02:03:33):
got to a point where I was like trying to
zoom in and zoom out and where was this, and
you know, trying to almost change up my thinking pattern
because maybe my thinking pattern is wrong and I need
to look at it from another angle kind of thing.
And then I got to a point where I was
just like, man, it actually just feels so much better
to not even think about it. And I go and
in that moment, I just let go of everything, and

(02:03:56):
the stress just melted off of.

Speaker 5 (02:03:57):
Me, and nothing outside of you change the wall. It's
still gone. That's gone, but you're inner world was like, ah.

Speaker 1 (02:04:06):
And honestly, maybe my my stress over needing it is
almost causing it to you know, magnetize away or demagnify
or whatever it is, right or demagnetize, and because whenever
you hold that vibration of I need to find something,

(02:04:27):
I need it, I need it, I need it, it's
what you're really saying is I don't have it. I
don't have it. I don't have it, And so maybe
that is almost amplifying, you know, whatever is going on
around me to not I don't know. I'm thinking about
this six ways, you know, a hundred million ways to
try and figure this out, and you know, I kind
of I don't know. I've kind of just like let

(02:04:49):
go at this point, dude, honestly, like if I find
it one day, I find it one day, if somebody
ends up you know, running up my my my debit
card or whatever. I locked all my cards already, so
it's totally fine. They're just gonna find my you know,
other information, which is unfortunate, but yeah, I'm just letting
go of it, and you know, it'll it'll work out.
How it works out. It's out of my hands.

Speaker 7 (02:05:09):
So I have a feeling you'll find it now because
you have just kind of let go, and you're gonna
be like, oh, it's right there.

Speaker 5 (02:05:14):
What a fucking idiot.

Speaker 7 (02:05:15):
And now I remember putting it there yeah, you know
it's gonna be something like that.

Speaker 5 (02:05:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:05:22):
Yeah, I've just because I've been putting a lot of
effort trying to find it, and now I'm just like, dude,
I did everything that I needed to do. I searched everywhere,
I did as much work as I possibly could to
try and find it. Now it's out of my hands.
And that's something that I've really been trying to train
my own self about, is that, like, if there's nothing
you can do about it, why stress about it? You know, like,

(02:05:45):
don't get Yeah, no amount of stress is going to
reel that thing back in anyway. Yeah, So yeah, I
don't know. Maybe it's just maybe it was all just
a lesson in the first place.

Speaker 5 (02:05:56):
There it is.

Speaker 7 (02:05:57):
I think everything is, dude, Everything that happens that seems
unfortunate is a is a potential to learn, you know.

Speaker 1 (02:06:03):
So that's it. Yeah. So all right, Well our next
episode will be We're actually going to be doing it
on the uh, the the autumn equinox also known as Maybin.
So that's gonna be a fun episode and we're gonna
get pretty ritualistic in that episode.

Speaker 5 (02:06:22):
Right now, of course, I would expect no less.

Speaker 1 (02:06:24):
Yeah, it's gonna be awesome. And actually, whenever that episode
comes out, I believe it comes out either the day
before or the day of the Autumn equinox.

Speaker 7 (02:06:33):
I want to say you were looking into that and
it is in fact the day of.

Speaker 5 (02:06:36):
But we'll see, we'll see.

Speaker 1 (02:06:37):
Yeah, it should work out pretty perfect. So anyhow, this was, Man,
what a fucking banger of an episode. This was so
much fun and definitely those, dude, one of those episodes
one you don't forget. No, no, we'll be talking about
this episode five.

Speaker 5 (02:06:52):
Years from now and we'll definitely have him back several times.
As of that.

Speaker 1 (02:06:57):
He'll be home for sure, oh for sure. But anyhow, yeah,
I guess we'll boogie up out of here. So let's
see all on the

Speaker 5 (02:07:04):
Flip side by guys,

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Occult Symbolism Of Becoming The Intermediary Of Heaven & Earth w/ Symbolic Studies

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