Panpsychism| Consciousness Before Matter

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
You've created everything. What's put a powerful being?

Speaker 2 (00:06):
You are.

Speaker 1 (00:07):
You did these things, but now you're in a human body.
You forget the power you have.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
What you do is what the whole universe is doing
at the place you call here, and now you are
something the whole universe is doing. In the same way
that a way is something that the whole ocean is doing.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
You're doing doing what. Welcome to metamistics, where you don't
know what you don't know. My name is Jonathan, I'm Sean,
and today we are in line for a fun, fun show. Now.
We have talked in the past about pantheism, right, I

(00:55):
believe we did a whole episode on it. We've mentioned
it a lot in passing and kind of vibe with
the whole idea that everything is one, everything is divine,
everything is God, there is no separation. Right, this is
going to take it a step farther. Today we are
talking about panpsychism, and this really ties into the first

(01:17):
Hermetic principle that all is mind.

Speaker 3 (01:21):
That's right, mind over matter, you know, because if I
don't mind, then you don't matter.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
Yes, right, yes, yes, And so you know, people for
the longest time have said that you know, because there
was physicality, that that physical life eventually evolved to have
a spirit, a soul, a consciousness, a subconscious. That essentially
that the subconscious and the conscious mind came after humanity

(01:48):
and everything else evolved. And it basically to say that,
like this, the conscious mind is secondary to the physical body. Now,
most people would agree in my I mean, maybe it's
just on our circle. I don't know, but I guess
in my life most of the people I know would
definitely agree that this is a temporary meat suit. And

(02:10):
we know that that there has to be something more.
There has to be, like we have existed outside of
our body. Everybody has. That's what dreams are for. That's
what psychedelic trips are for. That's what meditations are for.
It's what past life regressions are for. That's what astro
projection is for. It's what remote viewing is for. We
can exist outside of the anchor that is this human body, right,

(02:32):
And if that's possible, how is it possible if consciousness
comes from physical body first? So you're trying to say
that your conscious mind evolved but the physical body didn't.
That doesn't make any sense if we're talking about evolution
throughout the annals of history. Usually if the body would
come first, I should be able to fly, if I

(02:54):
can ask to project. If my mind is more feeble
than my physical body, then I should be able to
spread my wings and fly. And I would have evolved
like that. But no happened the other way. The mind
evolved farther than the not even just the mind, just
the consciousness in general evolved more than the physical body

(03:15):
ever did.

Speaker 3 (03:16):
Yeah, it's just the idea that that consciousness itself is
the fundamental aspect of reality that existed before everything else.
And you know what, I can really get on board
with that. And if not that, then at the very least,
at the very least, you know, I might not even
go that way, but the whole dualistic approach as far
as like the physical and the consciousness being equal and fundamental,

(03:42):
equally fundamental but separate, but I would tend to probably
lean towards consciousness being the most fundamental then sprouting everything else,
you know what I'm saying. Like, we've had these experiences
where almost seemingly we are able to understand what each
other is thinking, you know, and almost finish each other's sentences.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
And this this aspect of our reality. That just that
just is.

Speaker 3 (04:07):
You know, we might not be able to scientifically prove
it and really quantify these things, but as far as
experience goes, I can really get on board with it.

Speaker 1 (04:17):
Well, And that's the thing. Throughout many people's experiences, we
can experience something that is outside of time, like our consciousness.
Our mind is capable of experiencing something outside of time.
Our body can't do that. Now, we don't get to
take our body in our dreams, we don't get to

(04:37):
take our body in our meditations. That's left behind. That's
that's dead weight. Yep.

Speaker 3 (04:43):
Right, So you could say that the body is the
farthest thing from the the emanation, you know what I mean.
And so then in that, in that regard, it would
come after consciousness itself.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
Yes, because the one essentially let's just call it consciousness
from this data, from this point of view, the one
would be consciousness further emanating to the physical reality aka
the physical body. You know, your car, your bed, whatever
those are. The I get what you're saying. That's perfect. Actually, yeah,

(05:15):
all right, So tonight we're exploring one of the deepest
mysteries of all what is consciousness? And where does it
come from? Is it just a byproduct of brain chemistry,
or is it the fundamental stuff of reality itself? The
dominant worldview and our modern age tells us that consciousness
is nothing more than neurons firing, a byproduct of evolution,

(05:36):
an accident of matter bumping into itself. But panpsychism flips
that script entirely. It suggests that consciousness is not the
end result of physical processes, but the ground floor of existence,
the very essence that underlies everything. If that's true, then
you and I are not fragile bodies that happen to
be conscious. We are consciousness itself, wearing the mask of

(05:59):
a for a time. And here's where it gets wild.
If consciousness is fundamental that, then death is not the end.
It's only a shift, a dissolving of the mask, a
return to the whole. So tonight we're journeying through the philosophy, science,
and spirituality of panpsychism, and we'll explore what it really
means for life, for death, and for the dream of

(06:22):
being human. Hmmm, dude, that's great. I love it.

Speaker 3 (06:25):
Man, Death being like almost an intermission of infinite intermissions.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
You know, it's the maya just a little break in
between the illusion. You know, Yeah, we're tripping. And that's
the thing is that we did the whole DMTX thing
that has to prove it, you know, just the fact
that our neurochemistry shows that we are in a much
more aware state of mind under the influence of dmt

(06:52):
and that whenever we don't have that going on, that
awareness goes all the way down to roughly ten percent. Yep.
I mean, what are we talking about.

Speaker 3 (07:02):
It's like the body itself is its own governor of
the full, fullest potential of consciousness. You know, like consciousness
is potential for so much more, but our body has
to almost just narrow it down enough in order for
us to fully understand what we're looking at just through
our five senses.

Speaker 1 (07:23):
It's the life force, you know. So what is panpsychism
At its core? Panpsychism is the belief that consciousness is
a basic, irreductible feature of the universe, just like mass
or charge. This means that awareness doesn't suddenly appear when
brains get complicated enough. Instead, it's been here all along,

(07:44):
woven into the fabric of reality. Every atom, every quark,
every star, and every living creature participates in consciousness in
some degree. Now, this doesn't mean that rocks are secretly
thinking deep thoughts, or that your coffee mug has a
hidden inner life the way that you do. Instead, it
means that there's a faint, glimmering spark of experience in everything.

(08:06):
You can think of it like light. It can be
bright and intense, as in possibly a human brain, or
dim and barely noticeable, as in the smallest particle, but
it's still light in the same way. Consciousness runs on
a spectrum. This is what this suggests. So panpsychism doesn't
shrink consciousness down to nothingness like materialism tries to do,

(08:29):
nor does it inflate it into a mystical miracle that
only humans possess. It places consciousness everywhere, at every level
and says this is what reality has been about from
the very beginning. M this is just natured man, dude. Yeah,
it's the it's foundational. Yes, you know. So the difference

(08:53):
between panpsychism and pantheism, for those who may be wondering,
I would say that they're kind of cousins, but there
are distincts. Okay, So before we dive in, it's important
to clear up a common point of confusion. Panpsychism is
not the same as pantheism, though they sometimes overlap. Pantheism
is the belief that everything is God, that the universe itself,

(09:15):
in all of its vastness and detail, is divine. It's
a spiritual or theological statement about divinity in the cosmos. Panpsychism,
on the other hand, is a theory of consciousness. It
doesn't necessarily claim that everything is God, but rather that
everything has some form of experience or awareness, no matter
how faint. Where pantheism says the universe is divine, panpsychism

(09:38):
says the universe is aware. One is a statement about holiness,
the other is about mind. That said, these two often
dance together. If the universe is suffused with awareness, it's
not hard to see how traditions across time have equated
that awareness, that awareness with the divine. So in our
previous episodes talking about pantheism, we explored the sacredness of all. Tonight,

(10:03):
panpsychism lets us explore the experience of the all, not
as a distant God, but as a consciousness itself, flowing
through every part of reality.

Speaker 3 (10:13):
I wonder if, too, if because they're so closely relatable.
If that is another reason why perhaps that we tend
to seek for some higher power or something larger than ourselves,
something that was pre existing.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (10:30):
If you're talking about the pantheism and you want to
say that everything is God, let's just say there's that
higher power, there's that spark that that we have because
of that. And if it's the the panpsychism, then it's
this larger thing such as consciousness itself, that has existed
before us, that is bigger and more vast and more

(10:51):
infinite than we are, and so that that gives us
this sense of almost always sensing that that presence of
whatever that is, if you want to look at it
spiritually or whatever, like, I feel like that's that explains
some of that.

Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yeah, I would definitely say so. And if you think
about it, so the like pantheism says that everything is God,
everything is one, everything is God, everything is sourced, everything
is universe, everything is one thing, right, and that's okay.
I don't have any problem with that. But it's almost
a divine paradox in that sense, not that there's anything
wrong with paradoxes. I think this whole reality is a

(11:27):
fucking paradox, right. But you know it's like if everything
is God, then the paradox would be that nothing exists
outside of God. So to call yourself God, you know,
where's the separation at? You know exactly?

Speaker 3 (11:43):
Yeah, Yeah, I just like wanted to mention as far
as the whole consciousness thing. You know, there's there's a
reason why we've had experiences. Man, Like just the other night,
I had this experience where you know, my eyes are shut, man,
and I'm so relaxed. All of a sudden, I see
like eyeballs and things. I mean, I'm not saying that
that's what consciousness looks like, but that is what my
brain determined that that's what that was, you know, like

(12:05):
the imagery with in that that ether along with it,
and I'm just observing observance. I mean, I don't know,
it's very strange. Oh yeah, you're the dream something. I
was thinking about the dreamer and the dream.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah. Yeah, dude, such a trip. Yeah, So why materialism
falls short? So if you're somebody that believes that materialism
is first and then consciousness came after, this is where
it may not be. So materialism, the idea that matter
is all that there is has been the dominant worldview

(12:40):
for centuries. It tells us that that consciousness is an
emergent property of matter, something that appears once neurons start
firing in complex enough ways. But here's the problem. No
one has ever explained how lifeless matter suddenly becomes aware.
This is what philosopher David Chalmers famously called the hard
problem of consciousness. Science can measure brain activity and tell

(13:03):
you what happens when you feel fear, joy, or love,
but it can't explain why those electrical patterns feel like
anything at all from the inside. Why should matter, when
organized a certain way, suddenly light up with the experience
of red, or the taste of chocolate or the ache
of heartbreak. Materialism leaves us with a giant gap in
the story. Panpsychism avoids this problem entirely by cutting out

(13:28):
the quote unquote magical leap. Instead of saying consciousness emerges
from dead matter, it says matter was never dead to
begin with. Consciousness was always there, just waiting to be
organized into more and more complex forms. This doesn't just
solve the hard problem, it turns it inside out. So
that's pretty cool, Yeah, dude, and I think that, to

(13:50):
be honest, dude, I think that a materialist is you
would have to closely associate that with an atheist, right, yeah, absolutely,
you know. And you know it's because some people will say,
and I listened to a lot of atheists. I actually
enjoy listening to atheists speak a lot of the time. Actually,
the one that you pointed me in the direction of
on TikTok or YouTube whatever, it was, Yeah, very intelligent people,

(14:14):
I mean, because I think the guy that you referred
me to, he was like an ex pastor or an
ex priest or something.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
He was definitely within He was a Christian for like
twenty years, you know, and then he went into ministerry
what is it called, but they go to the school
or ministry school, ministry school and all this, and at
that time he was already starting to like deconstruct and
like he really started to look at the and getting
he learned Hebrew and all of the everything he needed
to know. And Dude, by the time he got done

(14:41):
with that, he was full on like atheist. He could
just see it for what it was, you know. And
and there's nothing wrong with being an atheist. It's basically
just looking at the hard evidence, and if there's no
evidence for something, then they are not inclined to believe
in that. And that's totally fine, you know what I mean.
I think we believe in things that we don't don't
have hard evidence for. But it's that's a choice, you

(15:02):
know what I mean. Or like, if you want to
allow your mind to entertain certain things in order to
amplify yourself in some sort of way, whether it be
confidence or or whatever. You know, we go into all
the different different things, but it's it's all.

Speaker 1 (15:17):
Good, you know, Yeah, it is. There's nothing wrong with that.
I mean, I to be honest, I kind of feel
bad for atheists, you know, because now it's like there's
nothing to live for. Although they'll say they'll disagree with that,
I don't know. I'm not trying to sit here and
say that we live to basically appease God so that
hopefully reserves a seat for us in heaven. I'm not

(15:39):
saying that. What I'm saying is is that if you
think that once you die the lights completely go out,
then what's the point.

Speaker 3 (15:48):
I mean, I can understand, you know, having that thought
and thinking that there's nothing else after this, If nothing else.
For me, how I would look at that if I
was completely atheist, was that is that I only got
one shot, you know what I mean, So let's make
the best of this go round because I'm not coming
back after this. There's nothing after this, so I've let's
just make the best.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
Out of this, right.

Speaker 3 (16:09):
But what I wouldn't necessarily say that there's nothing to
live for. But but my point is is that, like
why for experience? I mean, you're going to want to
experience the best thing possible, even though you're not looking
at yourself as a divine being, you know what I'm saying, Like,
you're still going to want to have the best experience
or what you determine as good as opposed to bad.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
Yeah, but you don't get to take that experience with
you if there's if the if the lights are out
and you cease to exist, what's the point of an experience?

Speaker 3 (16:38):
You have no choice. You're here, you know what I mean.
It wasn't like you in that framework. You didn't decide
to be here, and so you're here. These are the
cards you're given. And so I mean that's kind of
where I used to be, you know, And just like
this whole finite mentality. But that could I can understand,
you know, someone becoming a little more uh fuck nihilist. Yeah,

(16:59):
I can understand. And I think I did experience some
of that, you know, and then I started exploring other
things or whatever.

Speaker 1 (17:04):
But some people are just.

Speaker 3 (17:06):
Totally comfortable with that, and you know, it's I don't
see it as something that you know, you don't have anything.

Speaker 1 (17:12):
To live for, though I've never I never viewed it
that way. I don't think I almost I don't like
it's a it's a form of trying to take control whenever.
You know, what we always kind of preach is let
go and surrender, right because if you are one hundred
percent certain that there's nothing after this, now you have

(17:33):
complete control over your life. Not to say that we
don't have majority control over our lives. I mean we
definitely do, We absolutely do. But you don't need to.
I don't know. I mean, you know what, maybe we'll
get an atheist on the show one day, and let's
just I want to hear them out.

Speaker 3 (17:49):
You know, it's just another lens, you know what I'm saying,
And so you're gonna get a totally different experience from it.
But you're not going to know too much different. I
mean that one guy came from Christianity, so I mean
obviously he has definitely contrast. So yeah, maybe we can
get somebody somebody like that that has totally deconstructed and
became atheist.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
That'd be interesting. And I will say, like the majority
of people that say that they're atheist, I think they're
actually agnostic. Like they're open, they're opened for there being something.
It's just that they haven't found, you know, something that
they can agree upon as to what it actually is.

Speaker 3 (18:21):
I mean, we're on a search ourselves, you know, trying
to understand the most foundational understanding of existence and why
we're here in all of that, and so it's it's
just a big mystery, dude. And some people are okay
with not knowing, and that's fine too, that's okay.

Speaker 1 (18:37):
So all right, let's continue on the on the route here.
So historical roots of panpsychism. Even though panpsychism feels radical today,
it's actually one of the oldest ideas in human thought. Plato,
for instance, shout out spoke of a world soul, a
living principle animating the cosmos itself. The Stoics believe in

(18:57):
a divine fire or logos pervading everything. In India, the
Vedantic traditions taught that Atman, which is the self, and Brahmin,
which is the universal consciousness, are one and the same.
During the Enlightenment period, philosophers like Spinoza and Leibniz, I
think it's how you say it, argued for versions of
panpsychism too. Spinoza saw the universe as one substance, with

(19:21):
both with both physical and mental aspects, meaning consciousness and
matter are two sides of the same coin. Leibniz imagined
reality made up of tiny units of awareness he called monads.
Even William James, the father of American psychology, flirted with
the idea that consciousness pervades all matter. Fast forward to today,

(19:42):
and modern philosophers like Galen Strawsen and Philip Goff are
reviving panpsychism as a serious contender in the philosophy of mind.
What was once dismissed as mystical is now being reconsidered
as a real explanation for the hardest questions science has
ever faced. Let's go maybe, yeah, man, I love it.

(20:02):
I love when people are more open minded about this
kind of stuff, because well, yeah, it's one of those things.
It's like, you know, they say you can't prove or
disprove the the matrix or the simulation, yeah God or yeah,
same thing right right right, It's like and then God
eventually gets reduced to the God of the gaps, like
everything that science can't prove while there's God, right.

Speaker 3 (20:22):
Yeah, which then just pushes the argument further because then
where did God come from? And like, well, he's just
always been But then again, the universe could have just
always been right same.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
Well, and this is this, this is one of the
things that we've been trying to convey a little bit,
is that whether we're looking into magic or witchcraft, they're
druidism or you know, pantheism or name your thing, whatever,
we've covered right me and you we I feel like
we've always tried to find all right, but what's really happening?

(20:53):
You know what I mean? Like, you know, sage is cool,
and writing on bay leafs that's cool, and you know
magic incantations and affirmations and you know, making a pentagram
and the salt around your house. What's what's the real
shit that's actually going down going going on in reality?
Because this is just animated versions of the thing, you know,

(21:15):
expressing itself in this way. But what actually is it? Right,
And what we found is is that at the very
very very bare minimum, it's all just intention like for
the very most part. And and and intention is only
powerfold or powered powered up through awareness itself. And now

(21:37):
you can't have awareness or intention without consciousness, like that
map problem just doesn't work without it, right.

Speaker 3 (21:43):
I mean, I think I find it very very interesting
that we've we have learned so much about the human
mind and its potential through looking.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
At magic, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (21:52):
Like you never would I don't think I would have
guessed that that would have been a path to go
to figure out how the mind works and how your
intention and energy and time can affect your reality so much,
you know. But by looking at magic and looking at
the tools that they use and then applying that to
what's happening with the mind. When you're doing that, it's like, oh,

(22:13):
and then everything just starts to make so much more sense,
you know.

Speaker 1 (22:16):
And you can't do any of that without consciousness one
hundred percent. So and like, and a lot of magic
really does get a bad rep magic, witchcraft, any form
of paganism does get a majorly bad rep because there
are always the sour apples, there's always the turds in
the punch bowl. Whenever you say magic and witchcraft, most
people instantly think bang Aleister Crowley, right, or they think

(22:39):
bang Marina Bramovich where they think bang like you know
John d or you know some of the most despicable people.
And and and that's not a really great representation of it,
but that's the light that gets shined on it by
the non believers. No no, no, no, no, right, And it's
like that's the light that really gets shined on it.
And I would say that the majority of like successful

(23:04):
magicians or witches or pagans in general, if we're using
their term, most of them you're never going to hear
about because you know, the wizards and sages and mages
and you know, enlightened individuals, they weren't going around and
bragging about the magical things that they were able to accomplish, right,

(23:26):
Because if it's all about the mind, and you're you know,
because bragging about something is kind of a lower form
of consciousness, you would say purpose, right, And that's that's
the opposite, Like you want to get out of that
form of self out of that form of ego. The
ego needs, you know, pats on the back and told

(23:47):
that you're doing a good job. The ego needs like
you're doing right now, let me follow you. The soul
doesn't need that. And most people who are accomplished in
that era, I mean, I would suggest that you know,
you just don't fucking need you know, recognition, right, And
I think that's what happens.

Speaker 3 (24:04):
When you get to a certain area or a certain
time within your journey, you start to understand things a
little differently, and the last thing you want to do is.

Speaker 1 (24:12):
To brag about what you're doing.

Speaker 3 (24:13):
You keep things to yourself when it's something for you,
you know what I mean, because it's not going to
help if you're telling somebody else your plan, you know,
like or to have expensive possessions or to a lot
of those things kind of get pushed aside because you
understand that that's not important anymore.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
You know.

Speaker 3 (24:31):
And I remember we were early on, you know, we
were going into people that were able to levitate in
all of this, and it's like, now, I'm thinking being
able to levitate would be the least of what our
abilities could be if we really applied everything the way
you're supposed to.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
And that's what the guru say. Don't don't like become
enamored with the cities that you accomplish on your way
to enlightenment slows you down. It's yeah, it's a it's
a fucking oh, it's a deterrent or a roadblock. Yeah, basically, yeah, yeah,
so yeah, that's not the main focus. So anyway, all right,

(25:09):
let's keep on going a little bit farther because we
do got a nice long, thick show with two seas today.
So consciousness PREMI uh, did I already read that consciousness?
I forgot where even where we were? Okay, no, I
didn't read this part. Consciousness precedes matter. So here's the big,
the big flip that panpsychism offers. Instead of matter producing mind,

(25:33):
it suggests mind produces matter. In other words, consciousness is
not an afterthought of the physical universe. It is the
foundation upon which the physical rests. The body and mind
are like instruments, but consciousness is the musician. Without the musician,
the the instruments make no sound. This perspective actually lines

(25:53):
up with some of the strangest finding in modern findings
in modern physics. In quantum mechanics, the role of the
observer can't be ignored. Experiments like the double slit test
show that the act of observation changes the outcome. It's
a fact. It's almost as if the universe refuses to
take shape until awareness engages with it. That makes much

(26:13):
more sense if consciousness is primary, not secondary. So when
you really sit with this, the entire materialist worldview begins
to unravel. It's not that brain creates awareness, it's that
awareness crystallizes into brains and bodies so that it can
play in the physical world. Consciousness comes first, matter comes second.

(26:34):
Love it, Love it, And it does make a lot
of sense if you really think about it. Like and
I always like to like, whenever I'm trying to figure
out what reality is, I just kind of base it
off of a lot of my own personal experiences, as
most people probably do. Right. And I know damn well
that whenever I go into a dream, that is my

(26:54):
mind doing what my mind is going to do. Every
single character, every single tree, every single car, every single conversation,
every single magical thing or nightmare or whatever happens, it
is all written by the author of my mind. Right,
And I think that you know, it's highly likely that

(27:17):
it's no different from reality.

Speaker 3 (27:19):
Absolutely not. And this is the thing that we've been
trying to say for a very long time. You know,
your thoughts and your the way that you look at
reality literally shapes how you how you perceive it, you know.
And how is it that you can go into a
dream and take it on as complete reality? Either there's
there's no there's no resistance to this thing. Oh, it's

(27:41):
just a dream while you're in it. While you're in it,
this is this is reality, you know. And so when
you wake up from that, and because an author, like
you said, within your mind created that dream, you know,
so why can't you do that when you're awake?

Speaker 1 (27:54):
You know what I'm saying? Like that that makes total
sense to me. Yeah, I just.

Speaker 3 (27:58):
Recently had it. I just recently had a I think
it was about two weeks ago. I recently had a
sleep prolysis type of thing happened, and I was it
was it was very interesting because I I felt like
I was awake, and I like rolled over to try
to wake my wife up, and I like shimmed my
way over there like enough to where like my head

(28:18):
was like laying on her and I can feel the blanket,
the specific blanket that she uses, you know, and I
was like nudging her and I could. I for sure
thought that this was really happening, and I tried to
wake her up, and then she said, oh, someone's here,
and all of a sudden, it like knocked me out
of that, and I got up out of bed and
I went out my my bedroom door, and I looked
down the hallway and then I asked her.

Speaker 1 (28:39):
I was like, who did you say was here?

Speaker 3 (28:40):
And then I like, for some reason, instead of turning
around and walking back into the room, I like walked
backwards back into the room because maybe I was scared.
I don't know what the situation was with that. And
then all of a sudden boom, I'm laying in the
spot that I started in, facing away from her at
that time, Like, but I can tell you that I
sure like if you would have asked me in that dream,

(29:03):
hey man, we're gonna record tomorrow, is this reality? I'd
been like, yeah, for sure, what are you talking about?
Why are you asking me that? Like it felt so real.
I've never had an experience like that before, and so
what what's going on there?

Speaker 2 (29:17):
You know?

Speaker 1 (29:17):
What? I mean, like the author of my mind was
just like, what why is that? Why do we have
these experiences?

Speaker 3 (29:23):
If consciousness has no role in any of it, people
just overlook the dream aspect of it.

Speaker 1 (29:30):
I mean, And that's and that's the thing is that
you know, we as humans, you know, for specifically talking
about our meat suit, we have grown to not need
certain organs anymore. We just don't use them, you know.
The appendix, I believe is something that they say that
give it another couple of hundred years, Like we're not
even gonna be born with them anymore, right because there's

(29:53):
just not really a whole need for them. And and
I'm sure that there's other things that I can't think
of right now, But the point is is that whenever
there's not a need for something, you know, evolution or
reality or the universe says, all right, well, I'm not
going to keep on putting energy into something that you're
not going to use, you know. That's that's kind of
the whole argument behind like the Gray Aliens, Right, Like

(30:16):
the Gray Aliens became so technologically advanced that they didn't
have a use for a mouth anymore. They didn't have
a use for you know, sexual organs or anything like that.
I mean, their body became so slender and frill and
you know, it was just like a fucking Barbie doll
the way it was, like how slim it was, and

(30:38):
they grew to not need it anymore. Now it was
definitely to their detriment. Otherwise they wouldn't have tried to
come back. And you know, if you believe that whole story,
But the point is is that, you know, if consciousness
is merely secondary, and if consciousness, if we didn't need consciousness,
or we didn't need awareness, and we were only put

(30:59):
here just to experience reality, physical reality, and nothing else,
you would have no need for internal conversation. You'd have
no need for heightened or lowered awareness, you would have
no need for dreams, you'd have no need for you know,
things that you may experience on a psychedelic trip. Why

(31:21):
would you need it? You don't need it anymore? Like
why do we have certain receptors within our brain that
speak to d MT and THC, amongst other things. Why
why are those receptors? Like how did we evolve to
get there?

Speaker 3 (31:35):
You know what I'm saying right right? And why does
consciousness feel the need to persist when you're when you're asleep.
You know, does the brain really need some sort of
entertainment or some type of stimulus to get through the night?

Speaker 1 (31:48):
You know what I mean? Like, I don't see why
that is. I mean, yeah, think about the activity and
your car for example. You know, whenever your car is
turn you know, you hear the engine, you hear all
the parts they're going, and you know the belts are spinning,
and the smoke from the gasoline is being produced out

(32:09):
of the exhaust and all these other things. Right, Like,
it feels alive, it feels awesome. But you turn, you
take that key out, It's like a light switch went off.
There's nothing else going on inside of that car. And
why do you need it. You don't need that car
to be thinking anything or doing anything whenever it's not running.
The same thing goes for the human body. Why do

(32:31):
we need to dream? Why does our mind keep on
going whenever, you know, the conscious mind fades into the darkness.
It's like there has to be something there.

Speaker 3 (32:43):
And nobody's talking about dreaming evolving away at some point,
you know what I mean? Like that that seems to
be a thing that will always be forever going forward.

Speaker 1 (32:52):
I agree. Yeah, So this is actually a really cool
analogy we're going to talk about. It's called the whirlpool analogy.
You ever heard of it before? No, So one of
the clearest ways to picture this is with the image
of a river. Imagine an infinite river of flowing water,
moving without beginning or end. That river is universal consciousness, boundless, eternal,

(33:15):
and always in motion. Now within that river, whirlpoles appear.
Each world pole is a local gathering of water into
a recognizable shape. That whirlpole is you or me, a
temporary individual swirling with a sense of separateness from the outside.
It looks distinct, but it's never really cut off from
the river. It's made of the same water, just spinning

(33:38):
in its own form. And here's the key. When the
whirlpool dissolves back into the river, nothing is lost. The
water remains flowing onward. That's what happens at death. The
form fades, but the essence, the consciousness, was always the
river to begin with. Mmmm, that's cool, it's pretty Yeah.
It's like the wave, you know, the wave of the whirlpoole.
Same thing. It looks like it's separate from the hole,

(34:01):
but eventually it dissolves back into the into the totality
of all that, all that is within that river, that ocean,
or whatever it is. Right, And it's not like whenever
the wave goes down, that like there's now five gallons less.

Speaker 3 (34:15):
Of water, one less wave, right right, It's just a
temporary excitation of the hole you know that is in
fact identifiable as a wave crashing or what have you.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
Yes, yes, So now we're going to get into everyday
evidence of consciousness primacy. Oh, let's go, baby, skeptics say.
Skeptics may say, Okay, nice metaphor, but where's the evidence. Well,
let's look at some of the cracks in the materialists story.

(34:48):
For instance, near death experiences. People who are clinically dead,
no heartbeat, no measurable brain activity, still report vivid awareness.
They describe floating above their bodies, seeing doctors work on them,
even recalling details that can later be verified. If the
brain creates consciousness, how is that possible? Then there are

(35:10):
dreams every night when you slip into a world created
entirely by your mind, with sights and sounds and emotions
and even other characters who seem real in the moment
you wake up. And it vanishes, but the experience was undeniable.
Mystical visions and psychedelic journeys at another layer, often pulling
back the curtain and revealing realities that feel more real

(35:30):
than waking life. As many people have said, panpsychism gives
these phenomena a place in the framework. Instead of being
written off as hallucinations or malfunctions, they can be seen
as moments where consciousness shows its independence from the body.
They are little reminders that awareness doesn't rely on neurons alone,
that the mind is more than the machine.

Speaker 3 (35:53):
And you know, I know that some will argue as
far as trying to argue against the near death experiences
because they're like, oh, well, we had this experiment where
like twenty hospitals they took this, they took this experiment
on and they put like note cards and things up
on top of the And I've heard people say this,
and it's trying to just like, well, see you look
at this isn't something that people are actually experiencing, because

(36:15):
nobody has ever had the experience and come back and said,
oh yeah, there is in fact a note card and
it says.

Speaker 1 (36:21):
This or what have you. But you know, I think
the only thing I can say to that is forethought.
If yes, first like.

Speaker 3 (36:28):
You're not telling the people that, Okay, let us know
what's up there. We put something up there, but you know,
just let us know what you see. But I feel
like it's more like if there was something up there,
they're also seeing so much of other stuff because now
there their limitation, which would be the body is not

(36:49):
holding them down anymore. And so I feel like, if
you're up there, you're I mean, David Dischfield saw a
waterfall of stars and everything else, and so who's to
say that along with seeing their body below, they're not
seeing so many other things. And a note card on
a shelf is not something you would be trying to
observe at that point, now.

Speaker 1 (37:07):
You know what I mean. It's just silly to me,
not at all. And I feel like that just it
just takes so much forethought. First of all, you have
to have the doctor say, well, it's a good chance,
so this motherfucker's going to die, so let me put
a note card and let's see if he'll be able
to jump out of his body and read this message.
The thing is is that that is a that's that's

(37:27):
kind of a bad form, you know what I mean,
Like that's done in a bad flavor, Like you're not
going to sit here and say you're not going to
sit here and say, like I give up on my
patient and I think that he's going to die, so
let me write this card and see if he can
have an out of body experience.

Speaker 3 (37:43):
Right, Well, I mean to be fair, I don't think
that that's how they were doing it, but but yeah,
and in that saying it that way, because I guess
the card and everything is it's just always there. So
just in case they do lose somebody, when they come back,
they can ask them some questions and depending on how
they fare, can determine whether or not they actually went
out of body. And most of the time they can't

(38:03):
tell anybody the experience that they saw something up there,
even if they said I definitely went out of body,
they can't tell anybody what's on that card. But like
I said, I feel like that's the last thing you're
going to be trying to look at.

Speaker 1 (38:15):
But you know what, like you don't even need to
have that because there are numerous examples of people saying
like they're unconscious, they're either dead or they're on their
way out and there is no brain activity going on.
Maybe they're having some crazy surgery going on to where
they you know, the anesthesia is weighing in deep or
something like that, and they shouldn't have any form of

(38:36):
consciousness whatsoever. And I just got done. It was a
couple of days ago. I was listening to this person
and they were saying that they got shot in the
fucking head with a gun, right, and the bullet like
it was, it was nearly fatal, and I guess it
was fatal for like a couple of minutes until she
was able to come back, right. So she eventually comes back,

(38:59):
but she goes, she goes, I saw something in there
that the doctors believe I shouldn't have seen. So there
was a doctor, maybe two doctors, and a couple of
nurses and she goes. I specifically remember the doctor yelling
at the nurse because she fucked up somehow one way
or another, right, and she goes, you know, she relayed

(39:23):
that back to the doctor, I guess, and the doctor
was like, yeah, I can't talk about that because she
went back, like a couple of weeks later, when she
was all healed up and released from the hospital, and everything.
She went back a little while later to go check
and see, like, am I just tripping right now? Or
did I see that? You know, like, did I see
that nurse mess up? And so she goes back and
she goes, yeah, I remember there was this one nurse.

(39:45):
I didn't get her name, but you know, she describes
her really well and to where you know who she's
talking about, right, And the person that's working at the
hospital goes, yeah, the person doesn't work here anymore. As
a matter of fact, they got fired that night, right,
And so the woman's like, oh, so that's why my
brain's a little off, you know, just making a fun

(40:06):
joke out of it, like this girl messed up. She
got fired. I mean, she messed up so bad that
she end up getting fired. And here I am just
walking the streets. And so she goes and so she
I believe she ends up having a conversation with the
doctor and the doctor's like, yeah, or she heard something
through the grapevine or something like that and found out

(40:26):
that that nurse had messed up. Yes, that doctor was
yelling at that nurse while she was supposed to be unconscious.
More of the story is is that she was able
to see something, she was able to witness something she
was there for something that she shouldn't have been there for, right, right.

Speaker 3 (40:43):
And the reason for that not being good evidence of
the out of body experience being real is because that
would have exposed the hospital itself. Of course they're going
to protect, you know, if if they did something like
in a malpracticed type of situation, they're not going to
be like, oh, yeah, we messed up, because for all
they know, this person that did see them out of
body as trying to build a case for some sort
of malpractice suit and you know what I'm saying. But

(41:05):
in the case of the experimental ones where they're actually
trying to gather that proof, like, yeah, it just falls
apart because, like I said, you're not gonna be looking
for that type of thing, you know, and.

Speaker 1 (41:16):
That can't be explained away. But it happens like a
lot more than people are comfortable to admit.

Speaker 3 (41:21):
Yeah, people going out of body and going to a
separate floor where their family members are having a conversation
and listening to the conversation and then after the fact
telling them, yeah, I was there, I heard you guys
talking about this and that, and they're just like blown away.
But like that that's not going to count as evidence
because it wasn't set up and it wasn't scientifically you know,

(41:41):
ran through in that way. It's just an experienced thing
that will just be an experience and that's it.

Speaker 1 (41:48):
Yeah. And the thing is is that you know, there's actually,
and I believe we mentioned this before, but there are
venerated saints, like through the Catholic Church or wherever they
become venerated because of their great works whenever they were alive,
and so they become saintized or whatever the term is, right,
just venerated saints. And there are venerated saints who like

(42:09):
there is documentation of some of these motherfuckers going out
of body and meeting other people in places that like
they didn't bring their body with like talking about like
these I can't remember the name of them, but there's
this one saint that had this like this crazy out
of body experience. And it's known that this saint never

(42:29):
left like his bedroom or something like he always stayed
in one room. I don't know if he was paralyzed
or what, but like for some reason always stayed in
one room. Right, Yet there are there was a pilot
that said that that saint came and visited him, you know,
as he was flying a jet. There was another person
that came and said, yeah, that person actually came and

(42:49):
visited me last night too. It was really strange, like
I thought that they never come out of their cave
or whatever it is. And so the point is is
that it's usually whenever people admit that it's a real
thing that's going on, well that's just divine, that's God's
and I'm not even here to disagree with that. I mean,
if we are all God, or we are all one thing,
or we are all one consciousness, then yes, you're right,

(43:13):
you know, but it's not limited to veneration, right, exactly exactly.
So all right, now we're going to get to the
next part, which is the integrated information science itself is
beginning to brush against panpsychism, even if it doesn't call
it that. One of the leading theories of consciousness in

(43:34):
neuroscience today is called integrated information theory or IT. It
suggests that consciousness arises wherever information is both highly differentiated
and highly unified. In other words, a system that integrates
lots of information into one whole, like the human brain,
produces a rich conscious experience. But here's where it gets interesting.

(43:56):
Integrated information theory doesn't say that this integration only happens
in humans. Even a simple circuit, if it has the
right structure, could carry a tiny spark of awareness. The
more integrated the system, the brighter the spark. The idea
dovetails perfectly with panpsychism because it implies that consciousness is
not an on or off switch, but a spectrum present

(44:19):
throughout nature. What this means is that the line between
alive and not alive becomes blurry. Consciousness may be as
fundamental as gravity or magnetism, present everywhere, showing up in
stronger or weaker forms depending on the system. It suggests
that we live in a universe that is not dead
and mechanical, but alive and aware at every level. Fuck yeah, dude, it.

Speaker 3 (44:45):
Has to be true, Yeah, dude, Yeah, Like it would
be preferable, man if we do go on somewhere after this,
you know, yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:54):
One hundred percent. Yeah, I mean I want to keep
going right, you know, I'm enjoying.

Speaker 3 (44:58):
This life exactly. To what form would you take? You know,
like who knows, you know, But I mean you can
end up being a tree or you know, and at
that point your ability to experience consciousness would just be
like at a slower rate or something like that, probably know.

Speaker 1 (45:16):
And the point is is, like, you know, like there
has to be like if you think about it, so,
I know, some people, Jacob specifically likes to say that
whenever the Big Bang happened, that can be compared to
was that possibly whenever God spoke life into existence, you know,
let there be light kind of situation, was that when

(45:37):
that very moment happened, that there's just a scientific way
of proving what spiritually happened, right right, And that's that's
an argument. And I mean, I don't I know, I mean,
this should happened a long as time ago. I wasn't there,
you know. But if we are to just look at
it for what it is, if God spoke something into existence,
are we now saying that God only speaks material reality

(46:02):
or does wouldn't it make more sense that if God
spoke something and you know, like made something out of
just his voice, that there would be essentially like maybe
his consciousness that was the the the electricity that created

(46:23):
everything and crystallized it and made it look like it
was physical. But it would have to stem from something
conscious is. My point is that consciousness has to proceed
material reality if life was spoken into existence, right that?
I don't know. I mean, that's why my mind works
with it anyway. Yeah, So why you experience you and

(46:48):
not me? Okay, all right, let's go. This is one
of the deepest puzzles. If consciousness is truly everywhere, why
do you only experience yourself and not everyone one else?
Why do I feel like me trap behind my eyes
instead of also feeling like you, or the tree outside
or the stars in the sky. Panpsychism offers a fascinating

(47:09):
way to look at this. The answer lies in patterns
of integration. Your brain integrates information into one unified stream.
That integrated stream is your perspective. My brain does the
same for me. The river of consciousness is universal, but
each whirlpool, each integrated system becomes its own window of experience.
Window of experience. From inside the whirlpool, you only see

(47:33):
from your angle, not from all at once. Some mystical
traditions even go further whenever they say that this boundary
is real but also temporary. The sense of eye is
a necessary mask so that the one can play as
the many death or certain altered states may dissolve that boundary,
showing you or showing that you and I were always one,

(47:57):
just refracted into separate windows for a time. And think
about this, dude. When people do have that near death
experience and they said that they for a brief moment
were on the other side of that veil or they
were reconnected with the source, it was almost like they
had so much information just almost like downloaded into them.

(48:18):
They they knew everything.

Speaker 3 (48:21):
Then they come back and it's like impossible to even
be able to explain that. But just that sensation of like, oh,
I just knew so much, you know, that is the
idea of whatever it is that's you, the little bit
of consciousness that's inside of you, re emerging with the stream,
if you will, you know what I'm saying, the infinite stream,

(48:42):
and going, oh, that's what it all is. And this
is just like a character that I'm embodying briefly.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
I mean, yeah, just as you were a different character
in your dream, right, you know, like it just as
your wife was different in your dream, your job was
different in your dream, your kids were different in your dream.
You instead of having like I have a boxer wiener dog.
You had a husky, you know, and you looked at
them like they were real family. Mm you know. Yeah,

(49:12):
no denying it, dude, no denying it.

Speaker 3 (49:14):
I really like that explanation too, as far as like
it's almost like consciousness is like this this foundational thing,
you know, but you your mind and the the experiences
you've had, and that that build up of the ego
that you have and the shadow and everything else is
is the thing that makes you feel like you. But
when you go into a meditation, I would bet you

(49:34):
and I both feel pretty much the same when we
were experiencing only consciousness.

Speaker 1 (49:40):
Stillness, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I
mean the feeling, the the euphoricism, if that's a word. Yeah,
that that thing that is underlying that's damn near silent,
but not totally silent. It's a it's a the most
the most peaceful feeling in the world. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:03):
And surely there's no way for us to be able
to prove or experiment with that, to figure out somehow
if we are in fact experiencing the exact same feeling.
I mean, when it is when you are able to
get to that complete just awareness, absence of the ego
and all of that. But I would be willing to
bet that it's the same for everybody. I mean, because

(50:26):
we're all dipping into the same field.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
At that point. You're staying in the zone of about
to fall asleep for fifteen to twenty minutes, and you're
not going into this meditation like with the intention of
falling asleep. So it's intentionally almost not falling asleep, is
really if you think about it, and playing within that
zone for some reason brings people absolute joy and absolute

(50:53):
peace and absolute wholeness and absolute absolutely destroying the illusion
of separate Like why is that a thing? Right?

Speaker 3 (51:04):
Well, because the consciousness itself would be like the most
neutral thing, you know. The only thing that gives us
that subjectivity of it is the like I said, the
experiences we've had before with certain things. And so when
you get into a meditation and you are observing that
meditation through the most neutral thing foundationally that we have

(51:26):
in existence, you are just that and there's no prejudice
or or need for the vape or or you know, the.

Speaker 1 (51:34):
Addiction or anything like that. You're just that. I am that,
I am no shit. Yeah, And it's interesting because you know,
I've I've read a lot of the Bible and various
other religious texts and everything, and you know, you see
like these very silly statements where and then God said this.

(51:57):
I'm like, I don't think that's how that works, because
you know what I mean, because operating within time I mean,
or like as if the if. And this is just
from my own perspective. I don't know if you agree
with this, but like, if we were to be able
to mesh with God or mesh with the all, or

(52:18):
mesh with the universe, the most easily readily available place
to do that is within meditation.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
Right.

Speaker 1 (52:28):
It's like that one comedian that said, you know, I've
been to church a thousand times. I've done mushrooms maybe thirty.
Which place do you think I talked to God the most?
You know? It's like there's something about that stillness that
is comforting. It is you know, you've been there before.
It's where you've probably been the majority of your existence,

(52:53):
and it's familiar, you know, and so that place it
is comforting in silence. You can go there and I
suppose you can ask, you know, some questions and get
some verified answers or whatever. But I don't know if
I've ever gone there and had God tell me that
I should start sacrificing shit. No, not one time, dude.

(53:14):
I've never went there and said that. I never. I
never heard God say like, you need to take over
this land because that's my land, right Like, that's where
it gets a little bit delusional to me. M M
with you. I agree with you.

Speaker 3 (53:29):
Yeah, I've never I've never been. I've never had any
messages like that, not yet. Anyway, who knows, you know,
maybe that's just how it works. Once you get deep,
you're still young, you know.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
Yeah, uh, test the spirit. Yeah. So now we go
to death as a transformation. So what happens when the
whirlpool dissolves and panpsychism? Death is not the annihilation of consciousness. Instead,
it's a transformation, a return to the wider field of awareness.

(54:00):
The body may shut down, the personality may fade, but
the essence, the conscious spark, was never produced by the body.
To begin with, A helpful analogy is the radio. The
radio doesn't create the music, It just tunes into a
signal that's already there. When the radio breaks, the music
doesn't stop existing. It still fills the airwaves, waiting for
another receiver, in the same way your body is a

(54:22):
receiver for consciousness. Death simply means this particular receiver shuts off,
but the music awareness itself continues. This way of seeing
death is not only less frightening, but deeply empowering. It
reframes mortality not as a tragic ending, but as a homecoming.
Life becomes a chapter and an endless story, a dream
with a greater dream, and death is simply waking up. Hm.

Speaker 3 (54:47):
Hmmm, that's cool, man, Okay, that's cool. Energy can't be created,
No one destroyed. Man, you know what I mean? And
I believe the consciousness I am, the thing that is
you is some sort of energy I guess would be consciousness.
And you just remerge with that.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
Well, and and if you want to look at it
like this, like if you want to talk about evolution
or you know, how did consciousness evolve if it ever
needed to evolve? Right like, and and the human body
will do everything like it was it was. The human
body was always in defense mode, like it still is
for a lot of people, right And that's why most
people are motivated off of fear or lack or unknowing.

(55:26):
And it's like fear. I mean, uh, anxiety and depression
are stemmed from those things. It's always a lack, it's
a fear, you know, it's the unknown. I mean, the
they're they're variables, right, and that's that's mainly like a

(55:46):
body thing. Like if you think about it, the body
was made to be defensive in a sense, like you know,
we we evolved to run or we evolve to eat
whatever the fuck or you know what I mean, Like
the body has tried to survive throughout the annals of history,
and that's why, like we just want to fuck all

(56:07):
the time, you know what I'm saying. It's like I
need to keep on reproducing because humanity is the most
important thing to my human body, in my human mind. Right,
you could say that consciousness wants to survive as well,
and that its divine mission and that its divine purpose
is to always survive. And if that's the case, then
surely it found a way to do so, right right. Oh,

(56:31):
that's interesting.

Speaker 3 (56:32):
I wonder I feel like it wouldn't even need to
have that instinct, you know, if it is this foundational thing.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
I just feel like it doesn't have that notion that
drive at all.

Speaker 3 (56:45):
You know what I mean it just is, you know,
but that's not good enough for the scientific community, you know.

Speaker 1 (56:50):
What I mean.

Speaker 3 (56:51):
You can't just say it just is or it just does,
you know what I mean That that's just kind of
evading the real truth.

Speaker 1 (56:59):
Of the matter. They're not fans of it ill what
it ill.

Speaker 3 (57:02):
That's right, you know, I kind of am from time
to time. I mean, sometimes it's just is, you know.

Speaker 1 (57:09):
So all right, let's get to the ancient wisdom. These
ideas aren't new. Humanity has been wrestling with them for
thousands of years. In Hinduism, the teaching is that atman or,
the individual self is ultimately identical with Brahmin, which is
the universal consciousness. The personality is temporary, but the self
is eternal. Dying is like removing a mask and realizing

(57:30):
you were the actor all along. The Gnostics spoke of
the soul trapped in matter, longing to remember its divine origin.
In Buddhism, the self is seen as an illusion, and
liberation comes when we see through it and merge with
the boundless awareness beneath Doois. Sages described life and death
as transformations within the dow the eternal flow. All these

(57:52):
traditions converge on a central insight. You're not just the body,
this mind, this personality. You are something greater, something eternal,
wearing this form for a while. Panpsychism isn't just a
modern theory. It's the latest language for an ancient truth. Hm,
I dig it. I love it. I love it.

Speaker 3 (58:11):
I mean everyone's trying to understand this thing, you know
what I mean, we just got different names for it
and different proofs and different lenses to look through. But
I mean, come on, it's it's there's something there obviously
that we're looking for.

Speaker 1 (58:23):
Well, and that's the thing, if you know, if consciousness
comes after physical reality, why is it that since the
beginning of time there has been spirituality in religion and
myth and stories and you know, fasting and you know
all these different things that you would do, because we've

(58:45):
all had experiences that are like unexplainable, you know, and
people have been like, wait a second, I just had
that experience. It doesn't fit into like what they say
this material reality is. It doesn't like and if everything
was just a material reality, you wouldn't need to experience that,

(59:05):
you know, And that's kind of like so of course
there would be like religions that have spawned because hey,
I've experienced something kind of similar to that. You know.
That's actually the very reason why Electro Nick Ever reached
out to me in the in the very first place
was because I had told, you know, the show on
the Cold of a Conspiracy about my Eloheem story, and

(59:25):
Nick was like, holy shit, I had one of those two.
He reached out, He told me history and the rest
is history. Right. So we have these similar unexplainable experiences,
and sometimes we just like to throw a name on them.
But if all that there is is material reality, why
would you need to even add that into the equation?
Why would that even be a possibility. Why would synchronicities

(59:47):
be a thing? It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be.

Speaker 3 (59:50):
You know, these are just the things that are woven
into consciousness and it's just there.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
And not only just are they a thing? Why are
we away that they're a thing? You know what I'm saying.
It's a deep question, like why would we be so
aware of synchronicities? Why? You know what, I'm like, why
is it that some people are like, yo, I see
four four four every fucking day. I see it on
a license plate I see it on a billboard, I

(01:00:15):
see it on the clock, I see it on a
page number that I'm reading. It is just constantly slapping
me in the face. Now, some people would say, well,
your mind is a tune and it's looking for it.
I don't buy that. I really don't. I like because
it seems like they always happen at a significant time, right,
Like every synchronicity that you ever experience, it's always like, hey,

(01:00:39):
bring your attention back, Like, I'm happy I got your
attention with this synchronicity, But look around, maybe there's something
going on that you need to pay attention to.

Speaker 3 (01:00:46):
Yeah, and to mention, you know. I like to bring
him up because I just love the guy. But Danny
Gohlder how he said, you know, nature keeps no secrets.
I feel like that's kind of touching on that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:00:55):
Then the synchronicity and the just the experiences that you have. Man,
it's just like a consciousness itself trying to let you
know that you know, Hey, I'm right here, you know
what I mean, And I know that you're aware of me.
But like you know what I mean, there's more to
this mystery.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
There be more. Yeah, So modern science is catching up.
Here's where things get exciting if they weren't already. Modern
science is starting to echo what mystics have always known.
Neuroscience has yet defined the quote unquote seat of consciousness
in the brain. They can map neural activity, but they
can't pinpoint where awareness lives. The best way that that

(01:01:34):
they can say is that the brain states and consciousness
states correlate, but correlation is not explanation. Meanwhile, quantum physics
keeps producing results that put the observer back into the
heart of reality. Of The famous double slit experiment that
we mentioned earlier shows that particles behaved differently depending on
whether they're observed. Entanglement shows instantaneous connections across vast differences,

(01:02:00):
as if the universe knows itself in a way beyond
space and time. These phenomena don't disprove panpsychism outright, but
they hint that consciousness isn't just a side effect of matter. Slowly,
but surely, science is panting a picture that lines up
with the oldest mystical traditions. Matter in mind are not
two separate realms. They are woven together to sides of

(01:02:22):
the same coin, rippling with awareness from top to bottom. Yeah, baby,
all I love it. So then there's the practical power
of panpsychism. Belief shapes behavior. We know this right. If
you see the universe as dead matter, you treat it
as a resource to exploit. If you see it as

(01:02:43):
alive infused with awareness, you treat it with reverence. Panpsychism
is not just abstract philosophy. It's a worldview that changes
how we live. Think about compassion. If even the smallest creature,
or even a plant, carries some spark of experience, then
cruelty becomes less justifiable. You begin to see the world

(01:03:04):
not as an it, but as a thou, a field
of relationships instead of objects. This doesn't mean that you
stop eating, or building or creating, but it does mean
that you begin to live with a sense of sacred reciprocity.
On a personal level, panpsychism can reduce the fear of death.
If consciousness doesn't begin at birth and doesn't end at death,
then the stakes of exist and shift. Life becomes an adventure,

(01:03:28):
not a desperate scramble against the void. You are playing
a role in a grand drama, knowing the actor never dies.

Speaker 3 (01:03:36):
Hmm, that's cool, you know, Speaking of the void, man,
you know, we go into a lot of things, and
a lot of the things. Sure we can't prove, and
it's all experiential and all of this, but I'm gonna
come out and say do that there is no void.
I there's no way that avoid is possible with just

(01:03:56):
And this is just kind of what I've been thinking lately.
You know, the fact of non existence, you know, the
definition of that is something that doesn't exist. There's no
way that it could be a thing that can be experienced.
And so sure your mind took you there and said, hey,
look at this for whatever reason. I'm sure that you
figured out a lot of that, you know, for your

(01:04:18):
own subconscious and everything else. But as far as they're
being a void, no, well I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
And I would actually agree with you on that because
avoid is something that doesn't exist yet I was there
to observe it, So therefore the void can't be the
void if there was existence inside of it, right exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:04:40):
And so yeah, I'd just like to throw that out there,
because you know, and then you start to think of
you know, people that want to tell you that you're
going to hell and this and that, and it's just
like I don't think that consciousness, or even if you
want to say, God, somebody that created everything would want
to put you there, you know, especially if it it's
a part of itself.

Speaker 1 (01:05:01):
Yeah, consciousness is not going to punish itself. No, that's ridiculous. No. Yeah,
so that brings us interestingly enough, panpsychism and immortality. When
people hear immortality, they often imagine the personality living forever,
me or you or whoever, stretching on into eternity. But

(01:05:22):
panpsychism offers a more profound version. Immortality is not about
clinging to your individual ego forever. It's about realizing you
were never just that ego in the first place. Think
of the ocean and its waves. Each wave rises, peaks,
and falls, but the ocean is unbroken. The wave doesn't
mourn when it disappears. It was never separate from the sea.

(01:05:43):
In the same way, your consciousness is a wave in
the infinite ocean of awareness. When the wave falls, the
ocean remains. That ocean is you, and it never ceases.
This reframes death and immortality in a way that's freeing.
You don't need to chase eternal life as a personality
because you are already eternal as the universal consciousness. The
you that fears death is only a mask. The real

(01:06:07):
you is deathless. The real you already know what it is. Yeah,
you know, man, that is interesting though, right, that like
just the like just thinking about like, you know, because
both you and I have had like deep inner conversations

(01:06:28):
with ourself or with whatever you know, inside of our
own mind about our own mortality. Right, and it's like,
here we are, we are contemplating mortality as if it's
a thing, you know what I mean. At that point,
it's like only thing that you're really worried about consciously
losing as far as mortality goes, would be the ego.

(01:06:51):
It's like, of course, you don't need your ego anymore.
Like I'm not gonna be Jonathan anymore. I'm not gonna
be this guy with the on tattoos and the matrix
tattoos in a beard and somewhat beautiful, loving, luscious locks
and whatnot. Right, I'm not going to be who I am.
I'm not I'm I'm not the guy that is speaking
into the microphone that you're listening to on the other

(01:07:13):
side of this podcast. That is me temporarily. The real
me is beyond that. The real you is beyond that,
you know. And that's the crazy part is that we
want to bring podcaster Sean to the other side. We
want to bring podcaster Jonathan to the other side. We
want to bring you know, husband of so and so

(01:07:33):
to the other side, father or wife or brother or
sister of so and so to the other side, to
become immortal within the realms of human physical history. And
that's exactly what a physical body would want, you know,
if it it it fears mortality, right like it fears
for its own mortality in the way that like, well,

(01:07:55):
I'm who I know to be me absolutely will cease
to exist. And this is where a lot of people
get caught up because some people don't know how to
separate themselves from their own ego or separate themselves for
their physic from their physical body or anything like that.
And if if people only knew that you exist outside

(01:08:16):
of this meat suit, like not kind of think or
I'm I'm leaning that way, but if you knew it
to your core, dude, yeah, I mean, it's just another
fucking journey we're gonna go on.

Speaker 3 (01:08:29):
You know, yeah, dude, And you know, you know how
how firmly you are grasping onto your ego when it
is suddenly just kind of stripped away, you know what
I mean, through maybe some type of psychedelic experience, you know,
and when when that is gone, how uncomfortable that can be,
you know what I'm saying. So of course we're holding

(01:08:51):
on to that thing because deep down, I think we
know when you let go of that, it's an you're
already in the unknown, like immediately, you know, I think physically,
that's what we're afraid of.

Speaker 1 (01:09:02):
And that's and that's something that even Buddha was trying
to teach, you know, uh Gautama whatever his real name was,
but like he was trying to teach that essentially, the
your attachments are what is binding you to this physical world.
You got to, you know, in a sense, and not
everybody can live without attachments. Of course, we love our kids,

(01:09:25):
of course, we love our parents. Of course, we love
our significant others, and we love the interactions that we
make with other individuals, and you know, we love our
dogs whatever, right like, of course we love it. But
the idea is to be able to say, all right,
that is my physical reality. That's not all that reality is.

(01:09:45):
And so if you're to say, if I'm trying to
live without attachments, in a way, it would be to
say that, like, we're living two different lives and one
is temporary, and yes I'm going to miss everybody, but
the actual reality of our personal, actual reality itself is
beyond those things that it is beautiful because it is temporary.

Speaker 3 (01:10:09):
Right, Yeah, in that way reality we are just infinite,
you know, we go on forever.

Speaker 1 (01:10:15):
Yeah, you know. Yeah, it's fucking awesome. So all right,
the mystery of division? Is it real or illusion? Here's
the haunting question. If consciousness is universal, why do I
feel like only me and not like everything? Why am
I a window and not the whole? Is this division

(01:10:36):
real or is it an illusion? Pansychism answers by pointing
to integration. Consciousness organizes itself into patterns, and each pattern
becomes its own window. And so we were kind of
touching on this a little bit earlier. It's going to
go a little bit deeper. Now your brain integrates experiences
into one stream, and that stream is what it feels

(01:10:56):
like to be you. In this sense, separation is real
enough for experience, but not ultimate. It's functional but not absolute.
From a mystical view, individuality is an illusion. Consciousness generates
so that it can experience itself in countless forms, one
light through many prisms, one mirror shattered into infinite shards.

(01:11:18):
From the scientific view, your awareness is bounded by the
information that your body processes. From the mystical view, you
were always the whole. The mask just convinced you otherwise.

Speaker 3 (01:11:31):
And that the continuity of that mask really kind of
keeps you in that illusion, you know. I mean, if
there was you watch a movie and after about ten minutes,
because you're in that state of mind where you're just
entranced with the movie, you almost forget that you're watching
the movie. It's almost like you're just you're you're just
so involved that, you know what I mean, It just

(01:11:54):
the experience is whatever is happening on the on the screen,
you know, And so the continuity of that until the
movie ends, and then you come out and then you
talk about the movie, and you're now coming to the
idea like, oh, that was the experience of watching a movie,
you know what I'm saying. So I feel like that's
what this is. Yeah, the continuity of our life. Every
morning you wake up, you're still you're still Jonathan. You're

(01:12:16):
still Jonathan, and you kind of hold that that mask
up of who you think you are and then when
it ends, you go, oh, well that was interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:12:26):
Yeah, you know, man, I thought that was real.

Speaker 3 (01:12:28):
Yeah, I felt it felt real, dude, you tell everybody
I forgot parts. But like there was this podcasting thing.

Speaker 1 (01:12:35):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:12:35):
It was like you talk to people and I don't know,
you come up with what to say, like on the
spot it was wild yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:12:41):
Yeah yeah, and like we spoke with our mouth how primitive.

Speaker 3 (01:12:45):
People were believing in God and sacrificing goats. It was weird,
but it's fun, you know, it was fun.

Speaker 1 (01:12:51):
Yeah yeah, dude, man, what a U for moment that's
going to be whenever we finally get there.

Speaker 3 (01:13:00):
Yeah, exactly, and you go, I knew it, yeah right,
Like fuck, how.

Speaker 1 (01:13:05):
How else could I have framed it to help people understand?
You know, it's impossible. They'll never get it. Yeah yeah,
I mean the doal that can be explained is not
the real doll anyway. They're I'll try it, They're all trying.
You can't explain the unexplainable is the point.

Speaker 3 (01:13:21):
And that's it, dude, that's what we're talking about here
with consciousness, it's something that can't be.

Speaker 1 (01:13:27):
Tangible. It's just not tangible.

Speaker 3 (01:13:29):
We don't even know where it is within our mind,
So how are we supposed to analyze it and really
research it other than just through experience.

Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
Yeah, that's what we're left with. So that is what
we're left with. Yeah, which I actually like that. It's
almost uh that it's mysterious. You know, it adds to
because if you knew exactly what it was, there would
be no need to continue wondering and trying to figure

(01:13:57):
out what it is. And so by our content you
as wonder, we are constantly interacting with it, you know,
And maybe that's the point.

Speaker 3 (01:14:08):
Yep, I think a little bit. Yeah, for sure, definitely.
I mean even in the physicalist look at this, you
know what I'm saying, it's like big bang physical stuff
coming together with eyeballs and vocal cords and thoughts and
thinking about its beginning and where it came from. Like,
even that is just weird in itself, you know, not

(01:14:29):
even getting into the woo woo or any of that.
You know, it's still just fucking weird. It's all weird, weird.
It's beautiful though, So from the wholeness to the window.
So how do we go from total consciousness to a narrow,
a narrow personal window. In the first place, this is fun.
So think of consciousness like light. Again, light can flood

(01:14:53):
a room, but it can also shine through a pinhole.
Being human is the pinhole view, the universal awareness focused
through the lens of your body and mind. This doesn't
mean you left the hole. The hole is still there
flowing through you. You are like a radio tune into
a single frequency.

Speaker 1 (01:15:10):
The signal hasn't gone anywhere, but your tuner narrows it
into one voice, one channel, and one story one. That narrowing,
and that narrowing rather is what gives rise to individuality.
It's what allows the one to experience the adventure of
being Jonathan or Sean or anyone else. It's not a loss,
but it's a creative act. Consciousness plays like it's small

(01:15:34):
so that it can live many lives. Death then is
the moment that the tuner powers down and the signal
returns to its infinite range. Yeah yeah, So then, of
course there is the illusion of separation. From the mystical
point of view, the sense of being only you is

(01:15:55):
not the ultimate truth, but an illusion, what Buddhists call
the Maya. Consciousness never actually fractures. It only appears divided
because it's looking at itself through countless perspectives. Just as
a mirror can shatter into many shards yet still reflect
the same sky, awareness refracts into billions of individual lives

(01:16:15):
without ever ceasing to be whole. The illusion is necessary
for the play of life. If you knew at all
times that you were the entire cosmos, the drama of
the human being might lose its meaning. The illusion allows
you to feel joy and pain, and triumph and tragedy
as if they were happening to someone separate, which makes
the experience experiences more vivid. The one hides from itself

(01:16:40):
in order to find itself anew. When death dissolves that illusion,
you awaken the truth that the boundaries were never real.
They were costumes masks worn by eternity to see itself
in fresh ways. Life is the game, and individuality is
the disguise that makes that game possible.

Speaker 3 (01:17:01):
You know, I don't know if this is the truth,
but it's definitely the one I'd like to uh, I'd
like to pick and run with for a while it
just seems more fun.

Speaker 1 (01:17:08):
Yeah, I think so. I mean it's the nama stay yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:17:11):
Dude, you know, I mean everything within every butterfly, everything.

Speaker 1 (01:17:17):
A blade of grass, a fart, you know what I mean, Like,
all of it's the same. And that's the beauty of it.
Is that, as we said on d mt X or
you know, on mushrooms, any psychedelic whatever you're doing, why
is it that everything becomes so much more beautiful, Everything
becomes so much more vibrant, almost as if we're seeing
it in its natural form.

Speaker 3 (01:17:38):
No shit, dude, I never thought that I would feel
some type of remorse looking at a tree and saying, wow, like,
how come I never really paid this tree the amount
of attention it deserved, you know what I mean, as
a as the entity that it is like, And that's
that sounds kind of weird, you know what I mean.
I never thought I would feel that way. But for

(01:17:58):
some reason, there there's definitely that that that happening, whatever
that is, you know, like, let me see that thing,
and you're like, oh, it just looks like its own
and even the individual leaves look like its own entity
of sorts, like and almost if you think about it,
this way. The tree itself is such a good symbol

(01:18:18):
for exactly what we were talking about, you know, trunk
going up as the stream of consciousness, and then the
branches coming out being their own seemingly their own thing,
but really they're just all part of the tree.

Speaker 1 (01:18:31):
Yeah. It looks majestic, and you almost feel like you
owe it a respect, you know, like not necessarily worship
by any means, but definitely alluding to its own consciousness,
like just saying like, oh, there's something extra than just
wood going on here. Yeah, you know, worthy of your observance,

(01:18:53):
you know, at the very least, like yes that you know, yeah, dude,
And so anyhow so now we get to the evolutionary role.
Panpsychism also dovetails beautifully with evolution if you're somebody that
believes in evolution. To be honest, this is something that
I've been playing with. I think I've been playing with

(01:19:14):
it a little bit. I've been playing with it, been
touching it a little bit, you know, right, mainly when
nobody's looking, of course, but of course, I mean that's
the right thing to do, touching it. Nonetheless, the idea
of evolution, see, if we are beyond what it is
to be human. Then who gives a fuck if evolution

(01:19:34):
is a real thing or not as far as the
physical reality itself, if it's only secondary.

Speaker 3 (01:19:40):
Right, well, I mean when I think of evolution, I
think of just the physicalist idea of it. I don't
even I don't even think I I I don't know.
See hold on a minute, hold on, think about it.
Think about this for a second, because I feel like consciousness.
Oh shit, if consciousness is fundamental, I don't know if
it if it needed to evolve necessarily, but definitely the

(01:20:04):
physical our physical form has evolved, I think.

Speaker 1 (01:20:08):
But yeah, I don't know. That's because if you think
about it for a second, So if everything was always conscious,
and everything was always consciousness, then that means that at
one point in time we probably experienced what it was
like to experience to be a rock, a blade of grass,
a tree, a dog, a bird, a lizard, drop of water,

(01:20:30):
like all of these things we've you know, if if
if all is one thing, then we had to have
experienced it all. And to be honest, if you want
to take it to even trippier level, we are currently
experiencing what it's like to be all that anyway, because
time itself is an illusion, right, So if we're to
stick on that, on that realm, then wouldn't it make

(01:20:52):
just as much sense that we would want to know
what it feels like to be a monkey that eventually
involved evolved into a caveman, like imagining imagine having your
consciousness in that caveman, and then imagining, imagine what it
would be like to be a Neanderthal. And you know,
the the homo sapien, before the homo sapient sapien, It's

(01:21:16):
like it's still consciousness. It's just that the ability within.
And I think that, you know, if if we are
to look at consciousness as if it exists on a
scale as far as awareness goes, and the awareness of
said consciousness goes, then eventually, if the human mind is evolving,
it is only pro consciousness. It is in. It is

(01:21:38):
in Uh, it's in favor of consciousness experiencing itself, you know,
just throughout the annals of tubble, right right, And so
at that point, consciousness would be in favor of evolution,
you know, absolutely, Okay, I'm with you. I understand what
you're trying to say now, and I'm not even saying

(01:21:59):
one hundred percent that I believe in evolution. I'm just
saying I'm not going to sit here and cancel it out.
I think that would be kind of silly. Right, Oh,
for sure, it doesn't go against any spirituality and the
people that the people that think it does definitely, yeah, right,
And the people that think that it you know, it
goes against consciousness. Well, and here's the problem. The problem

(01:22:22):
is is that it doesn't go against spirituality, and it
doesn't go against consciousness. It goes against religion, right for sure.
For sure.

Speaker 3 (01:22:28):
So I'm all for the idea of evolution being a
real thing, you know what I mean, And consciousness, like
you said, is only experiencing it through those different forms
of really the ability to have a higher level of awareness.

Speaker 1 (01:22:43):
You know, really, yeah, I mean, and you could even
look at it like all right, well, let's look at
a consciousness as if it was a technology, for example,
like a physical material technology like and we were to
look at technology as if it was a human evolving, right,
just to play a little game. So at one point
in time, consciousness existed as a record, and then it

(01:23:06):
evolved into an eight track, and then it evolved into
a cassette, and then it evolved into a CD, and
then it evolved into an MP three, and every single
one of those there, you could like they held more
memory as it evolved and as it went on, and
the more memory that it could that it could hold,
the more experiences it could have, the more that it

(01:23:27):
could learn to be more and think more and wonder more. Right,
And so if we just look at it in that sense,
it kind of checks out to me. Anyway.

Speaker 3 (01:23:35):
That's where we are, dude, you know what I mean,
where at the forefront of the technology or the human
evolution that is actually trying to figure out what consciousness is.
And I feel like we're getting close, man, you know
what I mean. I feel like there's going to be
something to be said for people that are just able
to read each other's thoughts and shit.

Speaker 1 (01:23:56):
I feel like that's something that's possible. I'm gonna be honest. Yeah,
I mean. And also, I mean, if consciousness is the
all meaning, all knowing, omnipotent, omni aware, omni everything, if
we're just going to you know, kind of compare it
to God in a sense, which it would have to
be if it never if it never ceases to exist.

(01:24:18):
That means, and if it's all one thing and it
never ceases to exist. Then that means that it has
experienced everything that there has ever been to ever experience. Yep,
so it has no choiceation right right, God, we're getting
philosophical up in this, bitch. I love it. Yes, Yes,

(01:24:40):
So imagine consciousness not as something that suddenly appears at
the top of the evolutionary ladder, excuse me, but as
something that grows in complexity along with life itself. The
bacteria may have the faintest pinprick of awareness, an animal
a wider scope, and a human a vast self reflective window.

(01:25:02):
From this perspective, evolution isn't about creating consciousness, but about
building more elaborate receivers. Yes, and so consciousness you could
call it God, you can call it angels, you can
call it Aloheim, you can call it Pleadians, maybe all
of it, right, But it is always in favor of

(01:25:24):
that receiver being broadened and so, and that just makes
me think back to that dude, you got to watch
that movie. I think I told you about it before,
but it's and maybe watched it. But it's called The Eternals.
It's a superhero movie. It's like a moment. Oh yeah, no,
I saw that. Holy shit. I started watching it again
last night because I was like, I wonder thinking, how
I think now? How can I look at it? That's

(01:25:44):
the best part, dude. And so if consciousness, if you want,
whatever you want to call it, that maybe there are
other vehicles in which consciousness can fully express itself, and
it's looking down at the other vehicles of which consciousness
can't fully express itself or know itself or wonder itself
as much as the whole can experience the whole, then

(01:26:06):
you would have to wonder, like, could there be other
vessels or other vehicles that are you know, kind of
helping us along the way, pushing us in the right path, you.

Speaker 3 (01:26:15):
Know, absolutely and manifesting in maybe orbs who knows, you
know what I mean, Like they don't have to look
like us to exude some type of consciousness, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:26:26):
And the beautiful thing about that is is that it
doesn't have to happen to everybody. It is. It is
on a per individual basis. And that's what's so beautiful
and poetic and amazing about all of it is that
it waits for you to say that you're ready, And
if you're not ready. Maybe you're never ready. Then that's okay,

(01:26:47):
because you're just gonna keep on fucking existing any way,
and eventually one day you'll get it.

Speaker 3 (01:26:51):
Yeah, if you're not ready, you're gonna miss the signs
and the synchronicities and everything else that it's trying to
show you anyways.

Speaker 1 (01:26:57):
And so you know, only the people that are more
aware going.

Speaker 3 (01:27:00):
To notice these things and actually try to figure out
what the fuck is going on?

Speaker 1 (01:27:04):
You know, Yes, So let me just read that sentence again,
because that one hit me. So from this perspective, evolution
isn't about creating consciousness, but about building more elaborate receivers.
The nervous system of animals, the brains of mammals, and
eventually the human mind all serve as instruments for the
universal awareness to experience itself in new ways. The complexity

(01:27:29):
of the organism shapes the richness of the experience. Yes, yes,
it makes sense, doesn't it. It's tracking man. Your individuality then,
is not random. It's the product of millions of years
of evolution tuning the instrument. Consciousness didn't switch on one

(01:27:51):
day in the past. It has always been here, deepening, widening,
and flowering into the human experience. We now call me
m yeah, buddy, And eventually we're just going to be
a step on that ladder for the next, you know,
the next round of expanded awareness and consciousness, you know. Man. So,

(01:28:15):
now we get into near death experiences and other beings.
But if death is a return to the whole, how
do we explain near death experiences where people report meeting
other Did I already read this? Oh no, I didn't
read this. I'm sure where people report meeting other beings
or deceive deceased loved ones. Shouldn't it all just dissolve
into pure oneness? Oh yeah. Panpsychism provides a way to

(01:28:38):
understand this mystery. When the body begins to shut down,
the quote unquote window of consciousness doesn't vanish all at once.
And oh dude, this is this is goops goosebump material
right here. Okay, And so it doesn't just vanish Whenever
the body begins to shut down, the window of consciousness
doesn't vanish all at once, right, So instead, awareness loosens

(01:29:01):
from the body, but still carries the familiar patterns of personality, memory,
and relationship. In this liminal state, almost like an in
between consciousness often generates experiences that reflect those patterns, tunnels
of light, comforting figures, encounters with guides. They're not hallucinations,

(01:29:22):
but bridges between individuality and unity. And remember, even if
you are merging into the hole, the other windows of
consciousness still exist. Other beings, other souls, other fragments of
the one are still shining their perspectives. In the near
death experience you make glimpse or interact with them before
the final dissolving. It is the moment of standing between

(01:29:45):
two realities, the dream of individuality and the awakening into
the eternal. Wow, that's cool.

Speaker 3 (01:29:53):
Cool, Like your individual self is still kind of echoing
as it transitions into that mainstream of consciousness, right, and
think about it like transitional period, like the yeah, like
the soft launch back into the one exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:30:09):
And it's almost like, all right, look, I know you,
you like forgot and it's been a little while since
you've been here, So we're gonna hold your hand all
the way through it. And then whenever you're finally fully
dissolved back into the one, you're gonna realize that every
single one of those others that were helping you trans
like connect to the other side, they're all fucking you.

(01:30:31):
You know what I'm saying, Like, like, that's that's the
trip of it. So let's go even farther into that idea.
All right, So what happens when the dissolution is complete?
Whenever you? Whenever you the final dissolve. Imagine waking from
a dream. While you were in it, everything felt real,
the people, the places, the struggles, the emotions, but the

(01:30:54):
But the moment that you open your eyes, you realize
that it was all a story woven by your mind.
You don't you warn the dream. You simply see it
for what it was. From a panpsychist view, death is
exactly exactly that. So life as me or you or
anyone else in a dream of universal consciousness from when
the body falls away you wake up. The experiences don't disappear,

(01:31:18):
They become absorbed into the greater memory of the whole.
The dream dissolves, but the dreamer, you, me, everybody else remains.
This is why mystics and near death experiencers so often
described life as a dream within a dream. The dissolution
feels like an annihilation and more like waking into a
greater reality. You realize you were never just the character

(01:31:41):
and the dream. You were the dreamer the entire time.
M Dude.

Speaker 3 (01:31:46):
You've been saying that almost since we first started this podcast. Dude,
that like, when we go, it's gonna be like waking
up from a dream. That's way before we did most
of this research, way before we did most of the
near death experience episode.

Speaker 1 (01:32:00):
Like you, you've always kind of had that idea. Yeah,
where did that come from? Well, And to be honest,
I think it probably all started with, dude, whenever I
first met Jacob. I remember one of the very first
things he ever told me, right, I would I would.
I would go up to him and be like, hey, bro,
how you doing. You know, how's life? You know, just
getting to know him and everything right, and he's like,

(01:32:21):
you know, I'd ask him, you know, what's up and
how's it been going or whatever, and he would go, oh,
you know, man, just uh, live in life one nightmare
at a time. And I used to think about that, like, man,
what if it all is a dream and then you
have these mystical experiences with psychedelics and everything else, and
you're like, all right, it feels pretty fucking fluid like
a dream. Would you know, yeah, exactly what kind of

(01:32:45):
you know what I mean. You could go to bed
at night and have a dream within a dream. Come on, man, dude,
I mean honestly, yeah, that's and and and I don't
like whenever people like liking it too. We're in we're trapped, No,
because you're only trapped if you believe you're in a
cage in the first place. And like it's entirely dependent

(01:33:08):
upon your perspective of your reality because and you can't
say that it is it is a trap, Like it
can't entirely be a trap, because there are people living
this life as if it's not. There are people that
are loving this life. There are people, you know, crypto
bros that bought islands and they made their own laws
and they can do whatever the fuck they want. So

(01:33:30):
that doesn't seem like prison to me. That doesn't seem
like any kind of cage or any kind of trap.
The trap, the only trap that is out there is
the one that you create for your mind. That's the mindset.
That's it, yeah, man, Because I mean feeling of U
lack that kind of is just its own vibration, you

(01:33:54):
know what I'm saying, Like it's it's its own thing.
And you've created that, and that's a hard pill for
a lot of people to swallow because it's easier, it's
easier to say that I'm trapped than admit that I'm
the one that has the key to get out of
this cage anyway. Yep, and you're refusing to utilize that. Yeah,

(01:34:16):
I mean, everybody has a reason to feel bad for themselves.
Everybody does. Because the thing is is that, Yes, in
the modern day and age, you know, we have ac
the kings of old who were living like literal kings,
having you know, peasants feed them grapes and having midwives
and you know what I mean, not just midwives, but

(01:34:37):
you know what I'm trying to say, like you add helpers.
I mean, living to the highest extent of the fifteen
hundreds would be a fucking poor person nowadays. Okay, So
if you really think about it, the worst thing that's
ever happened to you is just the worst thing that's
ever happened to you. There's nothing else to compare it to. Yep.

(01:34:58):
You know, but we don't look at like that way.
We look at like, you know, the the kings of old,
as if they had it made and in comparison to today,
it's like, man, I mean, they're no better off than
the meth heads at the bus stops. You know, It's like,
that's the same shit. You're basically living the same life,
except for at least the meth heads got an iPhone.
It's like they did. Kings didn't even have that. No, no,

(01:35:20):
for sure, that's fucking funny. So anyhow to two? Okay,
So now one of the final parts we're gonna get
into is m samsara and nirvana, right, all right. Buddhism
gives us a language that resonates powerfully within panpsychism. In

(01:35:43):
Buddhist teachings, samsara is the endless cycle of birth, death,
and rebirth. Beings take on forms, suffer through illusions, and
continue to spin in the wheel lifetime after lifetime. If
life is a dream of consciousness, samsara is the act
of repeated falling asleep into new dreams, forgetting the truth

(01:36:03):
of who you are. Every death, in this view is
like waking up for a moment, dissolving into the hole,
remembering the truth. But then, unless you've attained full realization,
you fall back into another dream, another body, another story.
The illusion begins again. Consciousness hides itself once more to
play the game. This is the great cycle, the ocean

(01:36:23):
forgetting that it is the ocean in imagining itself as
countless waves. Nirvana, therefore, is the liberation from this cycle.
It is breaking the cycle of Samsara. It is the
moments of remembering so completely that you no longer need
to fall asleep in the dream of individuality again. It's
the realization that you are not the wave, not even

(01:36:45):
the dreamer of a single dream, but the eternal awareness,
awareness in which all dreams arise and dissolve. In pansychist terms,
it is dissolving fully into the universal field, never again
to be fracked into separate windows, different words, same insight.
The wave realizes that it was always the sea. So

(01:37:08):
if you feel like you're trapped, then you should probably
meditate break that cycle.

Speaker 3 (01:37:13):
Get your mind right, you know that that's the only
hell that exists is the confines of your mind that
won't allow you to expand and think a little differently,
you know what I mean, and use your your powered
ability to you know, rise above and just look at
things a little bit differently, you know, and change your reality.

Speaker 1 (01:37:31):
Yeah, I mean, I can't imagine that a chipmunk wonders
if it's doing life the right way or not. No,
it just do it, just do Yeah, so we arrive
at the great mystery. If panpsychism is true, then you
are not a fragile body clinging to a flicker of life.
You are life itself consciousness without beginning or end. The

(01:37:52):
story of quote unquote you, your joys, your struggles, your
fears and loves is not erased at death. But recognize
what it always was, a dream, a performance, a mask
worn by eternity. Death then is not that's a tough word,
not an annihilation, but a return. It is not a
plunge into the void, but an awakening into wholeness. That's

(01:38:15):
perfect for what you said earlier, Sam Sorrow may draw
you back into the play, or nirvana may allow you
to rest in the eternal. But either way, you never
cease to be. You are the river flowing, the ocean, dreaming,
the light shining through countless prisms. As you walk through
your days, remember this, every glance, every heart beat, every
star over ahead and stone underfoot is alive with awareness.

(01:38:39):
You're not separate from it. You are it, the one
looking through the many, the dreamer and the dream, and
when the mask finally finally falls, you will remember you
always have been and always will be the hole.

Speaker 3 (01:38:55):
And when that time comes, man, and the mask is
able to come off, you could be like Truman and
taking them bow, you know what I mean? Like the play,
This play is over, but a new one will begin, yeah,
after the after the intermission, of course.

Speaker 1 (01:39:08):
Either a new one will begin or maybe it won't.
It's up to you. I think that it's entirely up
to us to decide. You think so it has to be,
because I mean, I know that some people are like, Man,
there's no way I would have accepted this reality. But
that's looking through a very narrow pinhole. As it kind

(01:39:29):
of stated earlier. You're not seeing the whole door. You're
looking through a tiny little pinhole. You're like you're staying
up for for Christmas as a little kid, and you're
laying down in front of the door, looking underneath the
cracks and trying to see if you can hear the
jingle bells or or the black boots or a whole
ho ho or something like that. You don't see it.

(01:39:50):
All you're going to see is the rubber from Santa's boot.
You know, and so in this sense, it's like a
I mean, you don't necessarily, I don't know. It's like
maybe we just through the lens of what it means
to be human. And if you're only living as your

(01:40:12):
human self, you're never going to see the whole for
what it is. If all you think is that all
we are is physical human beings and that maybe kind
of sort of might consciousness might stem from that, then yes,
you're limited and you're going to wonder why am I here?

(01:40:34):
But if you can dissolve yourself into that deep sea
of the wholeness of the one, dude, it's pretty easy
to find out. I think that, like, yo, I'm actually
here for a reason, and so I'm going to try
and like live up to that.

Speaker 3 (01:40:49):
Yeah, and if you don't know what it is yet,
like figure that out and then just go for it,
you know, because you're here for something for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:40:56):
Oh dude, as one of I can't remember who said it,
but somebody said, your purpose is to find your purpose.
M hmm.

Speaker 3 (01:41:04):
Yeah, that's and that could be a hard thing, you
know what I mean, Like if you're you're too busy
on your phone looking at TikTok and doing this and
being bogged down by anxiety and stress and worry and
most of those things that are causing you anxiety or
the things that you have a choice to fix, but
you're choosing not to, and so that's why you're stressed.
It's like, get out of that, figure out what it

(01:41:25):
is that you enjoy doing the most that can help people,
or whatever it is, and then just start putting time
and energy into that and just just go.

Speaker 1 (01:41:34):
Yeah, just go, you know, yeah, dude, that's what we're
made to do. I think. But yeah, I love this
idea of panpsychism. I mean, you vibe in with it.
I mean, what do you It's fun.

Speaker 3 (01:41:45):
There's obviously no way, it's an unknowable thing we'll never
maybe we'll never completely know. But I feel like, if
nothing else, I enjoy looking through this lens, you know
what I mean. It's it's definitely funner to look at
it this way, you know. And then if you by
looking through this lens and when you want to get into, uh,
the idea of telepathy and these certain things and these

(01:42:06):
are all consciousness based modalities.

Speaker 1 (01:42:10):
Now, it's almost like you're opening a.

Speaker 3 (01:42:13):
Portal or a doorway within your mind to better accept
that as something that is reality, and then maybe you're
able to do it, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:42:21):
And like, I mean, what it means to be a
human is essentially what it means to trip, because you're
getting a tiny fractal of all the information. You're seeing
it through a very tiny small lens. And if all,
you know, if if we are part of the hole
and the whole is part of us, and we are
it and it is us, then the card that flips
out of your hand whenever you're shuffling the taro is

(01:42:44):
nothing more than a message that you're trying to give
yourself for that very moment, exactly. Yep. And that's just
it always seems to resonate, right, you know. Do Yeah? Now,
so what is that though, sir?

Speaker 3 (01:42:57):
Which, yeah, dude, we got the page of which I mean,
I always, I always enjoy a pedicle card, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:43:05):
Oh yeah, it's usually a good sign money, money, money,
you know. I actually, since I'm in Arizona, I have
my book elsewhere, so we're gonna pull it up what
it means on And I always like to go to
one of my favorite websites if I'm trying to look
something up, like look up what a Tarot card means
is bitty Taro, So I'll actually share the screen right

(01:43:26):
mit Bitty Tarot b id by tarot dot com. It's
usually pretty accurate, at least you know from my experience
with it. By the way, I do want to say
we are on Patreon, so if you want to be
able to support the show, then come over to patreon
dot com slash metamistics that links down the show notes below.
We have several different tiers, but if you just want
to be able to sign up to be able to

(01:43:47):
support the show, that we have a tier that is
only three dollars and thirty three cents a month, and
that gives you access to be able to come and
join us and you'll be able to see all of
the video without commercials. You'll be able to into our dms,
You'll be able to comment under each individual episode and
become part of the community. Part of the one is
what we like to say. But if you want to

(01:44:08):
take that a step farther, then we have the Wonder
wiz Day Tier. It's eight dollars and eighty eight cents
per month and you get everything that you get for
the three dollars and thirty three cent Tier. But you
also get to join us every Wednesday night for the
Wonder Wizday Live show. So if you want to be
a part of that conversation, put your two cents in,
be a fly on the wall, whatever, you just want

(01:44:29):
to be live in that moment. And you you probably
ain't got shit going on a Wednesday night at nine
pm Central, anyway, brighten up your Wednesdays. You always got
something to look forward to because we will be doing
this forever for the rest of time. Even when we die,
we will tune into your radio frequency and give you
messages somehow. Probably you know what I mean. Yeah, dude,

(01:44:51):
So if you want to be a part of that
Wonderwiz Patreon dot com slash Metamistics and sign up for
the Wonder Wiz Day Tier. Just want to throw that
out there. We're also on on YouTube, so if you
want to go to YouTube dot com slash metamistics, you
can go over there. I can't guarantee that there's not
gonna be any commercials, but if the commercials don't bother you,
then YouTube is totally fine. And to be honest, even

(01:45:11):
if you're on Patreon, go subscribe on YouTube as well.
I mean it really helps support the algorithm. Help support
the show helps that out big time. And another way
that you'll be able to support the show is by
leaving a review, leaving five stars. Whatever you do, whatever
you're listening to on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or elsewhere,
leaving that review and leaving that five stars, even if

(01:45:32):
you just say, hey, Sean, Sean is one sexy beast,
it helps the algorithm. It helps pump the show, even
the slightest little thing. We have people to come on
and leave one stars. Shout out to the individual. You
know who you are. You're helping out the algorithm. We
appreciate you. Yeah yeah, And also you can come check
us out on Instagram and TikTok. We try and post

(01:45:54):
as many clips of you know shows as we possibly
can for those who are just listening and you want
to be a to maybe see what our faces look like,
or our guest faces look like, or tune in to
the most awesome moments during each episode. Those short clips
will be up on Instagram and TikTok, so come check
it out. That being said, The Page of Pentacles tarot

(01:46:15):
card meaning the Page of Pentacles, depicts a young man
standing in a grassy field of blooming flowers, and the
distance behind him is a small patch of trees and
a newly plowed field, promising an abundant harvest. The mountain
range and the horizon signifies the upcoming challenges and obstacles
that the Page must surmount along his journey. The Page

(01:46:37):
holds a gold coin in his hand and examines it carefully,
as if to discover how to manifest even more gold
and abundance. Beautiful. So the upright meaning to it is manifestation,
financial opportunity, and skilled development. Oh good things. I dig it.
So do we want to dig in a little bit deeper?

(01:46:58):
I think we should. I think so. The page of Pentacles,
like the page of all four tarot suits, brings a
welcome message of new beginnings, inspiration, and initial stages of
a creative project or venture. Which is funny because this
is my first episode with metamistics in Arizona. Yeah dude, well,
just on a personal level, welcome. Since pentacles rule the

(01:47:18):
material realm and correspond to the element of Earth, this
page symbolizes a burgeoning awareness of the value of money, wealth, possessions, career,
and physical health, and how to manifest more of these
material blessings. You welcome new opportunities to your material life,
a new job, a new business, a financial windfall, and
wish to discover how to turn your dreams into reality.

(01:47:40):
When the Page of Pentacles appears in the tarot, you
are tapping into your ability to manifest a personal goal
or dream, and may be in the midst of a
new project such as a hobby, a business venture, or
the start of a new educational experience. You're excited about
the possibilities and potential of what you put your mind to,
knowing that you can create whatever you want with focused

(01:48:01):
attention and action. That said, this page does not specify
the fulfillment of dreams as much as the initial motivation
and energy. To begin the process of tuning those dreams
into reality, you need to put in place clear plans
for achieving your dreams and goals. Stay focused on the
practical and tangible elements, keeping your feet planted on the
ground and not getting carried away, always looking for the next,

(01:48:22):
realistic and achievable step forward. Your common sense and a
pragmatic approach will lead you to a solution that works.
And the quest to materialize his dreams. The Page of
Pentacles is an avid student and seeks to learn the
skills that will ensure his success in the long term.
The page of Pentacles often appears when you are ready
to up level your skills and learn something new so

(01:48:44):
that you can manifest your dreams. See this card as
an invitation to take a class, continue your education, or
start an apprenticeship. Even if you are already prosperous in
your current field, the page of Pentacles encourages you to
try something new and discover another aspect of yourself. The
more skills you bring to your portfolio, the more goals
and dreams you can achieve. The page of Pentacles may

(01:49:04):
show you that you are considering a new business or
entrepreneurial venture, or you are in the initial stages of
setting up the company to be financially successful and abundant
in the long term. You might be new to this,
but you have to you have the enthusiasm, commitment, and
devotedness to see this project through. Love it, amen, brother,

(01:49:24):
love it.

Speaker 3 (01:49:25):
You know when it comes to the things that it takes,
you know, for someone to be successful. You look at
all these people that are you know, they have these
big businesses or they're just successful and happy you know,
they the thing that they have is no different from
what you have. The only thing that's different is the
mindset and the willingness to spend that time and attention
on a particular thing and then see it through.

Speaker 1 (01:49:46):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:49:46):
And when you come to a boundary or you come
to an obstacle, you know, don't don't let that scare
you away. You know that that obstacle is only going
to make you stronger. It's going to allow you to
learn something new and just keep pushing forward.

Speaker 1 (01:50:00):
You know. Yeah, I think that they just you know,
most people who are successful, and I don't I don't
even want to, you know, just connect successfulness to happiness
and living the right way. I mean, you know, just
whatever makes you feel the most content and happy, I
would say is the most successful that you can possibly be. Yep.
And so those people, the thing that they learned how

(01:50:23):
to do was to get out of their own way.
We are the biggest obstacles. We talk shit more on
ourselves than anybody else. We are the ones that are
pumping the disgusting food that is terrible for our body
and for our brain. We're the ones that's not getting
enough sleep. Whenever we know that we need this amount
of sleep in order to you know, have a full
motor and a full engine the next day. Right, we're

(01:50:45):
the ones that are are to our own detriment if
we don't know how to use this vehicle of the human.
That's it. So yeah, solid card, dude. Yeah, I want
to hit home. Get out of your own way, man,
Get out of that way, dude, get out of it.
So anyhow, sean any parting words to the One as
we getting we get ready to go into this meditation, sir.

(01:51:07):
I love the information, man, I really did.

Speaker 3 (01:51:10):
And I'm going to enjoy looking through this lens and
I think it just gives a fresh a fresh outlook
on things, you know, and just explore that. And and
to thank you, you know, to the one for for
listening to us try to figure it out, you know,
and you're you're on this journey along with us, and
you know, I hope some of that resonated hopefully.

Speaker 1 (01:51:29):
So yeah, it's Look, it's not a it's not just
a dream. It could just be reality if you accept it, right,
you know, because i mean, hey, life could be a
dream anyway. You may as well dream something fun, not
as well have some fun doing it. With that being said,
if panpsychism came here and it's on you anything, it's

(01:51:50):
that you don't know what you don't know, So don't
just get weird, stay weird. All right, Seun? How was that, sir?
All right?

Speaker 3 (01:52:07):
So going into the meditation, I know that you explained
what the meditation was going to be of, but for
whatever reason, when I went into it, I was still
thinking of just the consciousness conversation and everything else.

Speaker 1 (01:52:20):
But then I saw.

Speaker 3 (01:52:22):
Like, in like my mind's I like, it looked like
a like a like a set of like like a ladder.

Speaker 1 (01:52:30):
It wasn't a set of statis.

Speaker 3 (01:52:30):
It was a ladder going up right, And so I'm like, oh, okay,
well I'll run with this, you know. I started climbing it,
and then all of a sudden, after a little bit
of climbing that, there was an elevator that was coming
from from below and it was coming pretty fast, and
I was like, oh shit, you know, And so for
somehow I was able to just kind of leap onto that,
and this elevator was just going fast right, and all

(01:52:53):
of a sudden it was out of the structure that
we were in, and it wasn't even attached to anything
and just going up like pretty fast to the point
where it was like beginning to leave Earth, you know.
And so it was just this rising, lifting feeling. And
then I started to like climb down the side of

(01:53:14):
it somehow like maybe we were I was beyond where
gravity was really taking hold, and so I climbed down
the side of it, and then I was hanging off
of the bottom of it by like the corner of it,
and I was just like looking down and I can
see like the Earth and just see it as it's,
you know, without the borders and everything else, just Earth

(01:53:35):
as it, you know, I don't know the energy of itself, dude,
and just looking at that, and then it just kept
going and then I, for whatever reason, kind of left
that experience and then I just started to focus on
what I was seeing with my physical eyes, and it,
to be honest, dude, it started to get a little
bit somewhat psychedelic, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:53:56):
Like saying shapes. And at one point it looked like
there was like a figure that like walked by like
real quick, like you know, like in the distance kind
of if there's distance within what I can see behind
my eyelids, you know. But it was just it was
a trip, dude. It was pretty cool though.

Speaker 3 (01:54:13):
But I wasn't even thinking about the Kundalini Rising going
into that, and I just see a ladder like this,
like within an elevator shaft, and then I climb it
and it was a pretty It was a trip, dude. Wow,
felt like I was within a dream, like a dream,
you know.

Speaker 2 (01:54:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:54:32):
It took me there too, actually, like it like I
forgot that I was meditating, yeah, you know, like after
a while, I like, I mean, I'm not gonna lie.
The first probably if I had to guess, five or
six minutes, I was like, man, just get there, come on,
I'm ready, you know. And and I was like, it's
almost like I forgot how to meditate. It was strange,

(01:54:53):
and and so I was like all right, and I
just kept on repeating, so render dissolve, Surrender, dissolve, and
I just kept on saying that in my mind like
for whatever reason, And dude, I felt like I eventually
melted into everything almost like like melted ice cream, you

(01:55:16):
know what I mean. It was almost like colors like that.
But it was like and then I was like, all right,
show me what I'm working with, Like, show me the
uh am I am? I is it possible that I
can communicate with an alien, an ancestor a god, a spirit,

(01:55:37):
a something at all? Right, dude's so strange. It was like,
have you ever been to uh to Oatman, Arizona? Yes? Actually, okay,
so you remember like those old school little like singular jails, right,
like it only has like room enough for one person
to go in, right, like very old looking. Right. I

(01:56:00):
saw that, but inside wasn't a human or anything like that.
It was just one fucking giant eyeball. And it was like,
I don't know if that was like an allegory for something.
Like the way I kind of took it was that

(01:56:21):
it's like maybe that's the all seeing eye, the all
that is, the all that experiences the all, and right
now it's behind bars because it thinks that it's an
individual or maybe I think I'm an individual, and once
I get rid of that individuality, then that I is
no longer contained behind bars. It was some kind of

(01:56:43):
meaning like that, And isn't it weird that like you
can look at something and like an entire message comes
from just by being in that presence or whatever yeah,
like because it didn't talk or anything, you know, and
but I only saw it for a couple of seconds,
but it like it was like still like sticking in

(01:57:04):
my mind. And then it was like I just dissolved
into nothing like it and I and I started to
feel it because at first I was like because I
was struggling to get there and everything, and then I
started to feel as if the void was starting to
envelop me. And usually usually that would like scare you
know me or whatever, right, and I was like, yes,

(01:57:27):
let's go. I want to go to the void. Bring
me back to the void. I want to go back there,
you know, because you know, the first initial time, at
least for what I can remember, it was like frightening
and not exactly pleasant. And ultimately that was all sparked
by my own fear, you know. So what happens if
I go into that void as like a I don't know,

(01:57:49):
like just to observe it and not necessarily to judge
it or judge myself or anything like that. Yeah, So
that's what it felt like. That's I don't know, that
was it was a weird. That was a weird meditation.
I dig it saying, I know, I like that.

Speaker 3 (01:58:01):
I like that, and it's cool how just like you said,
seeing a symbol of something like the eyeball being maybe
possibly representing consciousness itself. You know, we were talking about
that earlier on how people feel like we're trapped, you know,
and I don't think that's the case, and I think
you agree with me. And you seeing that consciousness within
that jail and it's like, yeah, you can put you

(01:58:22):
can definitely garner some meaning out of that, you know.
And it's interesting just how the mind works in that way,
you know.

Speaker 1 (01:58:31):
Yeah, I mean, if you really think about it, if
our consciousness is you know, somewhat at least surface level
contained withinside like this meat suit, it almost is kind
of in a jail because it's it's not able to
get out and escape and be all that is. It's
it just has one narrow view of the time being. Yeah,

(01:58:53):
I mean narrow in the sense of like whatever anything
that is less than everything.

Speaker 3 (01:58:58):
M Yeah, the version of itself that is for the
time being forced to I don't even want to say force,
but for the time being is observing things just through.

Speaker 1 (01:59:09):
You, you know, just through the pinholes.

Speaker 3 (01:59:11):
Through through your ego and your ideologies and your ways
of looking at things, you know what I mean. It
has to interpret everything that it observes through that filter,
the filter that is Jonathan.

Speaker 1 (01:59:24):
Yeah, and it's almost like the glass shard, thinking that
it's just a shard and not containing the whole, encompassing everything. Yeah, dude,
fuck I love this stuff. Yeah, it really does make

(01:59:45):
you contemplate.

Speaker 3 (01:59:48):
That's the best part, man, That's that's where the fun begins,
you know, contemplating the scene where it takes you, you know,
because I bet it won't take you where you think
it's going to take you.

Speaker 1 (01:59:59):
Definitely not interesting about it. Yeah, like.

Speaker 3 (02:00:04):
Me not even thinking about being next to a ladder
and all of a sudden there's one Okay, well let
me climb the ladder. So it's almost like you see something,
you observe it, and then you when you pull up
that thread and see where it takes you.

Speaker 1 (02:00:16):
M And that's that's the fun part, that whole vibe.
It was almost like I was willing, like more than
willing to embrace the unknown. Mm hmm. You know, it
was like, be more neutral about it. Whatever the unknown is.
I know it's going to be so sick, it's going

(02:00:38):
to be so awesome and I cannot wait to experience
it rather than being fearful of the unknown, right you know.

Speaker 3 (02:00:45):
Yeah yeah, giving that second opportunity to observe the void,
but through a different point of view.

Speaker 1 (02:00:52):
Yeah yeah, all right, good ship man, good stuff of
the mind. You know, as a playground never gets boring.
You know, it has its teeters, and it's and it's totters, you.

Speaker 3 (02:01:05):
Know, and it's dues. You know, one day we'll bring
it back that it exists, make a we it's there.
It didn't just disappear, No, no, no.

Speaker 1 (02:01:13):
Way, definitely not Anyhow, the one it was a good conversation.
Hopefully you guys really enjoyed kind of like this kind
of talk. I think I saw like a TikTok or
something that was talking about pan psychism, and I was like,
we've talked about pantheism, what's up with panpsychism? And to
be honest, I don't think they're that different.

Speaker 3 (02:01:34):
No, No, I mean there's just what you call a
couple areas that maybe don't line up, but other ones
definitely definitely vibe together, and you can mix and match
and interchange certain verbiage and yeah, dude, yeah, it's all
it's all one thing anyways, you know, let's be real.

Speaker 1 (02:01:53):
I don't even question that anymore. No, no, how could
you At this point. We're too deep. We're too deep,
all right, guys, We're gonna boogiep out of here. We'll
see you on the flip side. O. Guys, keep

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