UAP and Myths of the Space Age

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Reports of unidentified flying out there, unidentified, very o phenomena.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Are they the great weapons being tested.

Speaker 1 (00:11):
By our own or foreign governments?

Speaker 3 (00:13):
The Americans people are becoming.

Speaker 4 (00:15):
Most interested and in many instances.

Speaker 1 (00:17):
Very alarmed by the UFO stories.

Speaker 5 (00:19):
So why do you suppost that all of this has
been kept from the world exploring our past, our future,
and the mysteries of our universe?

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Where do they come from? Why can't you explain it?

Speaker 5 (00:29):
Everybody in mythology is screaming or disclosure.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
The future is now. This is Micah.

Speaker 6 (00:35):
Hanks from the high mountains of Appalachia and a bunker
below ground. Welcome one and all. It is the Micah
Hanks program. Glad is always to be going in pursuit
of the anomalous in our existence, like we do every week.
Welcome one and all. Hope you're all doing wonderful and
of course, amid all of my crazy travel that starts
happening this time of year. I was thinking about this

(00:56):
earlier today. There are several things that always start happening
around the same time, and for me every year, travel
tends to be one of them. As we emerge from
the dreaded summer slump, we also start to see some news.
In fact, one thing that we have been tracking there
at the debrief this week is the announcement that there's
going to be another UAP hearing. That we've been actually

(01:19):
hearing about this forthcoming hearing for some time now, but
it was officially announced on September third that Representative Anna
Paulina Luna would be holding a hearing on UAP transparency.
According to the statement there on the Oversight Committee website,
Task Force on the Declassification of Federal Secrets, Chairwoman Annapolina

(01:42):
Luna today announced a hearing on restoring public Trust through
UAP Transparency and Whistleblower Protection. During the hearing, they say
members will hear from witnesses on the continued concerns regarding
disclosure of unidentified anomaloust phenomena and information held by federal agencies,
and will examine transfer appearancy issues surrounding the Department of

(02:02):
Defense and the intelligence community. It was also announced significantly
who would be appearing at this event and testifying. Jeffrey Nukatelli,
a US Air Force veteran chief, Alexandra Wiggins, a UAP witness,
Dylan Borland, also a UAP witness, and a veteran of
the US Air Force, and then finally veteran journalist George Knapp,
who in fact I saw over the weekend in Vernal, Utah.

(02:25):
We might have to catch up with George fairly soon
about all of these goings on as it relates to
the ongoing congressional interest in UAP. But more on that
after the hearing that we'll ensue here within just hours
of when you, dear listeners are most likely listening to
this right now looking back in time, though at some

(02:46):
other news. There was a big discovery recently at chatal Horyuk,
which is a Neolithic site in Turkey estimated to be
about nine thousand years old. Recent excavations unveiled what archaeologists
are now calling a house of the dead at this
site in central Turkey. According to researchers with Posnian University.

(03:06):
They say the remains of twenty individuals were found and
turred beneath the floor in a building that obviously had
not been intended as a dwelling space. So new discoveries
at an old site and one that has been known
for a while, so you might call it an old
old site. We also have new old sites in that
very region, because we have Greek reporter also bringing the

(03:29):
following to our attention from the same region, actually a
little further to the southeast. But yes, an all new
archaeological site has been unearthed, and they say this one
may be older than go Beckley Tappy, the famous site
there in Turkey that really pushed back the time scales
on not only Neolithic architecture, but also art and the

(03:53):
kinds of things that Neolithic cultures were doing in that
part of the world. According to Greek Reporter, they say
researchers believe the site may date back to the very
beginning of the Neolithic period, when humans very first began
shifting from mobile foraging to settled living. Keep in mind,
these kinds of ancient sites predate agriculture, they predate the

(04:16):
use of pottery, they predate the use of the wheel,
and yet we see very advanced megalithic architecture in many
instances at these ancient sites, which yet again upended all
of our previous thinking about these ancient people when the
initial discoveries they're in excavations led by Klaus Schmidt, began

(04:38):
at go Beckley Teppy. So I'll be watching this one
for sure as we learn more about this ancient site
and how it helps to further contextualize existing discoveries at
sites like go Beckley, Teppy, Karahen Tappy, and yes, of
course even shatal Hoyuk and others from the ancient world
that continue to reveal the secrets of the ancients in
the most literal sense speaking of ancient things, though, as

(05:01):
we are rounding out this fairly short news segment, so
we can get right into the thick of things with
some analysis of a classic UAP incident and also the
kinds of things that give rise to the myths of
the space age. Really a fascinating topic. But indeed, we've
got a bit of a mythical space age object that's
careening through our Solar system right now, and it's now

(05:22):
then reported that the mysterious interstellar visitor three I Atlas
is on its way toward Mars. By around October third,
the object should make its way close enough to Mars
that NASA's Mars Reconnaissance orbiter can direct its cameras at it.
And what we're hoping now is that these images will
probably be the closest photographs we'll be able to obtain

(05:44):
of three I atlas, and that will probably help us
to distinguish the object itself from the coma, the cloud
of material that's burning off of it that surrounds it.
Right now, as it gets closer to the Sun, it's
also going to produce more of a tail, and so
we're going to learn a lot about this inner stellar
object in the next few weeks. But there are already
researchers who are saying that, based on current data, it's

(06:05):
believed that three Iye Atlasts may be among the oldest,
if not the oldest, comet astronomers have ever seen. In fact,
according to Matthew Hopkins, who had been one of the
earliest astronomers to identify three Iye Atlas, he says that
a model that he and fellow astronomers are using indicate
that this object could be close to seven billion years old.

(06:27):
So yes, it would by far be the oldest comet
astronomers have ever observed. If indeed that age is ever confirmed,
we may be able to make some observations here in
the weeks ahead that help us narrow in on that.
Also in news this week, and a bit concerning news,
scientists are now worried about a strange form of life

(06:47):
that could wreak havoc on our ecosphere. And this isn't
an alien life form, although in many ways it actually
very closely resembles one. Now, this is what's known as
mirror life. There was a recent report put out about this,
the idea that mirror cells, artificially constructed living systems assembled
from reversed molecular building blocks, could pose unprecedented and irreversible

(07:12):
harm to the environment and also to life forms on
Earth if they were ever created and then escaped from
the lab. And in fact, the whole concept of mirror life,
according to this report, initially was born out of an
ambitious laboratory challenge. Societists were being encouraged essentially to create
these things as a challenge. Now they're being warned, hey,

(07:34):
don't do that. You could end up causing a major
problem because in theory, these mirror cells would function a
lot like normal ones that would grow, they would reproduce,
but they would effectively be invisible to much of our biosphere.
And in fact, if they ever got into our bodies,
if a mirror bacteria were created, our bodies wouldn't recognize it,

(07:55):
probably and we might not be able to defend against it.
So imagine that in visible deadly bacteria thriving in our
environment while they are effectively invisible to our bodies immune systems.
And also the natural processes that would curb the growth
of harmful organisms in the environment. Yeah, that one's not concerning, huh.

(08:18):
I tell you this mad, mad world in which we live,
and you can always read all about it over at
the debrief dot org, where the team and I are
reporting on all these issues and much more. But when
we come back, turning our attention back to a mass
uap siding from a few decades ago, right here on
the Micah Hanks program.

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That's not the itinerary we're following.

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On the night of March thirteenth, nineteen ninety seven, thousands
of people across Arizona looked skyward and witnessed something extraordinary.
It began as a quiet evening until a formation of
lights appeared over the Nevada border, slowly making its way
toward Phoenix. To some, the display looked like a massive
triangular craft blocking out stars as it glided silently overhead.

(10:22):
Others reported a series of stationary orbs that hovered in
the night sky before gradually fading away. What set the
Phoenix lights apart from other UFO sidings was not only
the sheer number of witnesses ranging from ordinary citizens to
police officers and even the state's governor, but also the
striking consistency of the accounts. Residents described an enormous V

(10:46):
shaped object, easily the size of several football fields, passing
overhead in eerie silence. Some reported that it moved with
such precision that it seemed also to be under intelligent control.
While the incident quickly drew national attention, sparking heated debates
between skeptics and believers, officials initially dismissed the lights as

(11:10):
flares dropped by military aircraft during a training exercise, an
explanation that left many unconvinced. For witnesses who stood in
awe beneath the massive form, the idea of flares did
little to explain what they felt was a singular, otherworldly event.
To this day, the Phoenix Lights remain one of the
most widely documented and hotly debated UFO cases in American history.

(11:33):
For any who saw the silent giant in the desert sky,
the memory is etched not just as a fleeting spectacle,
but as a moment that forever reshaped their sense of
what is really possible. The story of the Phoenix Lights
began on March thirteenth, nineteen ninety seven. It was a quiet,
clear desert evening in Arizona and throughout the region. Families

(11:54):
who had been outside stargazers looking up people driving along
highways describes seeing something unusual in the sky, something that
would become one of the most famous UFO events in
modern history, and that all began to unfold around seven
thirty PM. As the initial reports began to come in
from near Henderson, Nevada. Witnesses were describing a formation of

(12:15):
lights moving into v shape, and these objects drifted southward,
crossing over into Arizona, with calls flooding into local police stations.
By the time the lights had made their way near
Phoenix hundreds and later, by some estimates, maybe thousands would
report seeing these unusual lights. Most witnesses described the formation
as appearing to be a large triangle or maybe a

(12:36):
boomerang shaped craft. It was silent. Some said that the
object appeared to have blocked out the stars as it
passed overhead, and many said that the size would easily
have been several football fields in width. While eyewitnesses included
not only residents, but police officers, pilots, and even Governor
fIF Symington, who would later admit that he who had

(12:57):
seen the strange light show. In fact, many years later,
actor Kurt Russell would come forward and reveal that he
had been one of those pilots who had been in
communication with air traffic controllers at Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport,
describing that he too would observe these unusual lights and
wanted to know what they had been. Well later that evening,
at about ten PM, a second occurrence begins where rows

(13:20):
of stationary glowing orbs began to appear and hover over
the Sierra Estrella Mountain range. They would hang in formation
for many minutes before fading away, and this, as you
might imagine, seems to have created some confusion because it
seemed there were two separate events, or had they been
separate occurrences of the same event. Well, within a few days,

(13:40):
an official explanation was provided by the military, which said
that the lights that many residents had seen over Phoenix
were indeed flares dropped by a ten Wartthog aircraft from
nearby Luke Air Force Base. Despite this official explanation, though
many people remained skeptical. They said, well, flares don't move
information don't silently drift for hours over multiple cities. And

(14:03):
of course Governor fIF Symington, who had mocked the incident
with a staged press conference shortly after the main events,
years later revealed that he too had seen something extraordinary,
and he also didn't buy the Flairs theory. Well, the
Phoenix lights incident became a global UFO story. It's been
featured over the years and documentaries, news specials, and books,

(14:23):
and for many Arizona residents it was more than news.
It was a personal experience that still defies explanation, and
today that debate continues. What was actually happening in the
skies over Phoenix. Was it a secret military project, could
it have been a genuine visitation from beyond or is
there another explanation? Well, to try and make some sense

(14:45):
of what's happening, I think it is important that, indeed,
we draw some distinctions between the initial sighting, which ironically enough,
didn't actually begin over Arizona at all. It began over Nevada,
with witnesses observing a series of lights flying in formatation
or possibly one large object with lights at its corners,
revealing a triangle or boomerang shaped formation or object. It

(15:09):
remains in question what exactly was being seen. Multiple objects
were one really large one, but most witnesses to the
first wave of sightings, we might say, essentially described something
along those lines. Then there were the lights that were
seen hovering out there over the very Goldwater Range later
that evening, and based on the data available, my interpretation

(15:30):
of this actually is, but yes, what the Air Force
said had happened, that there were military flares dropped out
there over the Sierra Australia Range and that were observed
from a great distance away by people in Phoenix. And
in fact, after all of the hubbub about the initial
wave of sightings, some people armed with cameras managed to
film those lights that appeared later that evening. Yes, these

(15:50):
were probably military flares, and everything about the footage that
is now famously associated with the so called Phoenix lights
seems to suggest that is exactly what those were. But
those sightings from later that were documented on camera and
which the military said, yep, those belonged to us, those
don't explain the earlier sightings. At this point enter Thomas Bullard,

(16:14):
an American folklorist and also a man with a passion
for the UFO subject. And at times when necessary, a
skeptical attitude toward the historical study of it. Writing in
an essay about his own investigations into the Phoenix lights,
mister Bullard wrote the following quote, A decision on the
nature of the Phoenix lights based on the evidence, must
consider that between eight ten and eight forty five PM,

(16:37):
many people from Prescott to southeast Phoenix saw something unusual
and it was not flars. Most witnesses concur that a
v configuration of five lights flew southward. Nearly all reports
come from a corridor about thirty miles wide. The few
outliers in time, place, and description are likely due to
error on an unrelated source. Multiple witnesses for details like

(17:00):
slight course changes of a Prescott and Phoenix or one
rear light that fell behind at one point, further confirmed
that onlookers shared the same event. So far, mister Bullard wrote,
this evidence can just as well support a UFO as
aircraft theories, but time has come for a parting of
the ways. As Bullard goes on to explain, the witnesses
divide into contending camps. Which did they really see independent

(17:23):
lights or lights on a solid aircraft, or maybe both
an easy compromise that there were two types of UFOs
crashes on the obstacle that, if all witnesses are right,
both separate lights and solid objects had to be in
the sky at the same time, even as no witness
reported seeing both types of UFOs together or in succession.
In other words, he says only one group of lights

(17:44):
passed by only one type can be the right answer.
The winner takes all, So choosing one possibility means rejecting
sincere eyewitness testimony for the other. A hard choice either way.
But where contour illusion and contrast effect can explain the
appearance of a craft, no plausible reinterpretation can account for
the broken formation or stars behind and between the lights.

(18:07):
In the end, separate lights and a V configuration emerges
as the true form of the Phoenix lights. No other
credible evidence beyond the testimonies supports a UFO claims. He says,
of jet interceptors or a story of pilots passing over
a mile long UFO remain hearsay. The aircraft solution has
the support of direct observations of navigation or landing lights

(18:27):
on jets, a jet like speed of travel, an altitude
that can account for the appearance of slow passage, a
video that shows independent motion among the lights, and a
formation of aircraft that can cover the wide angular measures
repeated by witnesses without resorting to a mile sized mechanical
structure only. Mister Bullard says the aircraft solution fits the

(18:48):
evidence and explains the lights. Now even more fundamentally, what
Thomas Bullard is building on, here are actual observations from
around the time of the Phoenix Lights incident. One amateur
astronomy in fact, who had said that looking through his
telescope at the lights on the triangular formation, he could
quite clearly see that these were just individual aircraft flying

(19:08):
at a very high altitude. Had this been a military exercise,
probably so was this ever disclosed to the public. Seems
that it wasn't. Why would that have been the case,
That's anybody's guess. But whatever the case, the fact that
there were such observations, and the fact that, according to
Thomas Bullard, we can take other factors into account, in

(19:29):
other words, these deviations in the spacing of the lights
and their orientation, and also some people saying that they
could clearly see stars where this object was passing overhead.
So it didn't seem to be one large, massive mechanical device.
It was several small ones, and those objects, the individual lights,
were consistent with the flight maneuvers of simple jet aircraft.

(19:50):
This is essentially what Thomas Bullard says the evidence points to.
He continues, quote, the skeptical case has been dismissed, disparaged,
and most often ignored by the public and you pologists alike.
For many witnesses, the Phoenix lights hold special meaning. There
were an encounter with the unknown, an experience bearing emotional
and spiritual significance, a personal truth impervious to doubt or rationalization.

(20:14):
A community of believers has closed ranks for mutual support
against outside attacks on the lights as a mysterious and
extraordinary event. But he says also that another cause for
resistance has been widespread confusion of the eight o'clock and
the ten o'clock observations. The media repeated the flare explanation
as if it applied to both groups of sightings, and
disputes arose between the witnesses certain that they did not

(20:36):
see flares and skeptics who are certain that they did.
Both were right and both were wrong in the proper context.
Bullard says though, adding but they argued at cross purposes.
These conflicts stirred up further confusion and resentment of conventional explanations. Eufhologists,
on the other hand, are supposed to behave more judiciously,

(20:57):
and yet rather than dispassionate evaluation of the evidence, they've
manned the usual battle stations to defend an indefensible case.
This time, the skeptics got it right now, in my opinion,
based on the data he provides in support of his argument.
Thomas Bullard, PhD, American folklorist and historical researcher into UAP

(21:18):
sidings from over the years, over the centuries. In fact,
I think he has presented probably what is the best
argument for what actually happened during that famous sighting. But
it is intriguing to see how As he points out
there in the final passages of his essay, some of
the skeptics were doubling down on flares as being the
only explanation that was actually wrong. UFO believers were saying

(21:40):
it couldn't have been flares because it seemed otherworldly, but
the data seems to point to the contrary. It was
a very worldly explanation. There were, in fact direct telescopic
observations describing those lights as being aircraft. And yet how
could this case remain so contentious to the point that
it is still so widely to disputed even today. This

(22:02):
really brings up some very interesting questions about the nature
of belief, interpretation of reality and evidence, and what that
means both to believers in skeptics, but also how the
discontinuity between the skeptical and the belief oriented interpretations give
rise to a very unusual phenomenon of their own, a
kind of mythocultural complex that feeds into the UFO frenzy.

(22:26):
And although I don't dispute that there is some good
evidence that there are genuine cases involving true anomalies when
it comes to UAP research, I very much think that
that is a open question, and it's a study pursuit
of mine. But the proverbial drawing of the lines in
the sand, and the people always doubling down on their
own extreme explanations, those skeptics who said it was only

(22:48):
a ten warthogs dropping flares, and then the observers saying
it was a massive craft, a giant mechanical object with
a distinct leading edge, And I felt like we were
being watched or visited, or maybe that some other kind
of message was being sent. We're here and there's nothing
you can do about it. You know, somewhere there in
the middle, there is in this case at least a

(23:08):
more rational explanation, and it's not unlike something that we
saw happening late last year. Over the northeastern United States.
During November of twenty twenty four, the news cycle was
absolutely dominated by the sighting reports of mystery drones over
New Jersey and surrounding states. Many of the descriptions of

(23:30):
these craft described van or bus sized drones, and there
were theories about their origin that ranged from there being
Iranian drones being launched from a mothership somewhere out in
the Atlantic Ocean to genuine UAP which were engaging in
some kind of cloaking mechanism mimicry, in other words, to

(23:50):
make themselves look more like conventional planes or drones. Now,
in most of the videos that I have seen of
the drone sightings over the North East, I will tell
you as I've told you before in the past, most
of those videos of what people were calling drones were
obviously just aircraft. In fact, I did an installment of
the intelligence brief newsletter from the debrief, where I pointed

(24:13):
out why these things were aircraft, where all of the
indication lights appeared in all the right places, and that
what really was happening in a lot of these instances
had been that people who were filming aircraft coming in
for a landing there at Newark Airport or whatever other
airport in the region. These people weren't used to looking
up and seeing aircraft coming in and flying at low altitude.

(24:34):
News anchors were doing the same thing and looking at
these and saying, my gosh, look at all these drones,
when in fact they were just looking at aircraft. And
yet there were still a few videos that people were
sending me personally that obviously did appear to show drones.
Many of these observers were very skeptical, and they said,
I'm not used to seeing aircraft or drones, unmanned aerial
vehicles in other words, or anything else behaving in this manner,

(24:56):
But I saw them. In fact, I filmed them. Here
is what I filmed, and here you can can see
for yourself. And sure enough, based on that data, I
think that there were some people seeing some drones and
some of those drones were flying in formation, But I
don't ascribe any kind of otherworldly explanation to those sightings,
nor did the people who sent the videos to me
in said, I think that some of us really are

(25:17):
seeing drones. These aren't all aircraft. But here, again, very
much like the Phoenix Light's case, we have the believers
who are saying, we think that these are drones. We
think that they might be operated by a foreign power.
We think there might be some sort of a nuclear
sniffing device on some of these drones, and they're looking
for something that might have been lost, a possible radiological device.

(25:38):
Maybe there was even some sort of a bomb smuggled in,
and we're all really scared. There were many UAP proponents saying, no,
these are genuine non human intelligence and they are mimicking
drones and aircraft. That's the only explanation for why there
would be so many and by some of them would
be showing these anomalous capabilities. Again, I never saw any
evidence of anomalous capabilities, but that was one interpretation, And

(25:58):
then the hardened skeptic were saying these were all simply
aircraft and sightings of stars, as if drones being piloted
by civilian pilots, and the possibility that some of the
sidings might have represented some of those conventional, non anomalous drones. Yes,
they doubled down on the aircraft and celestial phenomena idea,

(26:20):
as though drones do not exist, whereas it is not
an extraordinary proposition to say that some people were actually
seeing drones, but because a few people were, this gave
rise to a sort of a fever, a panic of sorts,
and all of a sudden, within a few weeks, everybody
was seeing drones and everything they saw in the sky
to them was a drone. There are instances throughout history

(26:43):
where similar things have happened, especially when it comes to UFOs,
and this idea of the emergence of UFO folklore and
narratives around mass sightings of things that many people genuinely
interpret to be UFOs is a fascinating discussion dive more
deeply into when we come back here in a moment
on the Micah Hanks Program.

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The Reality, the Myth and the Mystery of UFOs Welcome back.
It is the Micah Hanks Program as we explore UFOs
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all too often overlooked. We like to try and take
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(29:43):
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Forward slash x. Getting back into this discussion though, about
the folklore of UFOs and the kinds of circumstances that

(30:49):
give rise to UFO folklore. In my very humble opinion,
based on the data at hand and the what I
think is the most likely to be correct interpretation of
the available data, cases like the Phoenix Lights incident have
an explanation, but one that is not really understood very
well either by most UFO proponents nor most skeptics. Along

(31:12):
similar lines, the sidings over the Northeast late last year
of alleged drones probably did involve some actual drone sightings,
but many skeptics have made up their mind as if
drones don't exist, that all of the sightings had simply
been misidentified planes and celestial objects. Others, of course, have
doubled down and said they weren't drones at all, these

(31:32):
were UAP. Both of those conclusions, to me, fall on
very extreme sides of the rational argument, which most often,
in my opinion, tends to gravitate a little more toward
the middle. You might call that the middle theory. But
maybe a little more on that at another time. For
the here and now, we had been referencing the work
of Thomas Bullard with regard to the case of the

(31:54):
Phoenix Lights, and he applies similar attitudes and approaches as
a folklorist toward a lot of us UAP cases throughout time,
from the ancient sidings that predate the modern era, to
the airship sidings from a couple of centuries ago, and
right up to today. And in a conversation I had
with Thomas Bullard about how folklore influences UAP, but also

(32:18):
vice versa, the idea that UFOs or UAP sidings give
rise to new modern folklore of the space age. I
caught up with Thomas Bullard and we discussed this a
while back, and he gave some very unique insights. I
want to feature some audio now from that discussion where
doctor Bullard took some time to explain why UFOs tend
to be something that reflect a lot of cultural ideas

(32:42):
and really a lot of what's happening in the world
at any given time tends to be reflected in our sightings,
our interpretations of, and our beliefs about what once were
known as flying saucers. The UFO phenomenon tends to be
one of those things that reflects the current attitudes and
public perceptions at any given time, doesn't it.

Speaker 1 (33:01):
Yes very much? Because you can go back into the
past where you have the phantom airships of eighteen ninety seven.
To us, they've become both the UFO literature treats them
as UFOs, but in their time they were airships, and
they were fairly primitive of flying machine type things, a

(33:23):
kind of a hybrid balloon and with bird wings or
something of the sort that would never have actually flown,
but it's what people really expected to see, and that's
pretty much how they described them, right.

Speaker 6 (33:38):
Your professional area is the study of folklore. I think
a lot of people misunderstand what a folklorest does when
they approach a topic like UFOs. So how exactly does
a folklost look at UFOs?

Speaker 1 (33:51):
Folklorists usually try to stay away from deciding what the
physical phenomenon is, and that may be an unform fortunate thing.
I know, David Hufford has done a lot of studies
of experiential phenomena. Most folklorists are really content to study
how you messages are communicated essentially, and how people treat them.

(34:15):
But that's probably not what most people are interested in
who are interested in UFOs. We are interested in the
way people think about these things. And what you do
have is a kind of the way people would think
has to do with their own time, with their own interests,
with their own needs. And in that way, many of

(34:38):
the UFO stories have taken over the role that fairies
and omens and ghost lights and such sorts of things
used to serve.

Speaker 6 (34:50):
Right. You know, when people talk about Jacques Vallet, for instance,
at Passport to Magonia back in the nineteen sixties, he
is presenting this idea which actually I think it frustrated
a lot of people Eddie that there wasn't really any conclusion.
Rather than being an idea. It was similar in that
sense that he was looking at existing folkloric staples and

(35:11):
noting the fact that there were similarities in the modern
approach to studying UFOs, and that to me really kind
of outlines a lot of this in the sense that
you must recognize the continuity between British isles, fairy folklore,
indigenous traditions from around the world about spiritfolk and supernatural
occurrences and UFOs, because at the end of the day,
it all comes down to the fact that human beings

(35:33):
are the receptors of these are the ones who are
perceiving this phenomena. You wouldn't really have a UFO siting
if you didn't have a person seeing it, right.

Speaker 1 (35:41):
Well, you have to have someone seeing something to create
the story, to perpetuate the story. Although you know, once
something gets into the public mind, it usually goes on
and on. It may go through variations, but it may

(36:02):
not even be reinforced by the same phenomenon. It's often,
you know, we'll find something new, Like many people have
used airplanes, they see lights in the sky and that
becomes a UFO, So that becomes a reinforcement of a
narrative that people have honed over the years having to

(36:25):
do with UFOs. And that UFO narrative in itself may
have its it's template in something that's been in the
folk mind for millennia.

Speaker 6 (36:37):
Yeah, you know, I think back about Alan Dundas, who
wrote about the processes of identification and interpretation in folklore,
really kind of groundbreaking work in that discipline, and I
can't help but see UFOs as both a topic that
must be approached as myth or folklore, but also explored
as a subject of more tangible study. How does one

(36:59):
find that, I know you attempt to that, of course
in your fantastic work. How does one balance it between
the study of the folklore and the tangible reality that
might be behind some of these kinds of reports.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Well, once again, I think the folklore the field, the
academic field, has sort of neglected the experiential side, which
is a necessary part if you want to understand anything
else about it. I think it's unfortunate that they've done that.
But it is a very hard thing to balance. I mean, obviously,

(37:36):
people have a lot of beliefs. Beliefs are perfectly legitimate
feel for study, but they also have these reinforcing experiences,
and it's really the balance is difficult to strike. This
is just no question about that.

Speaker 6 (37:57):
Yeah, you know, you mentioned David J. Hufferd. I had
the pleasure of interviewing him about sleep paralysis a few
years ago, Eddie, and you reference him a lot in
your work. It's obvious that you and here are colleagues
and that you have a mutual appreciation for one another.
You've written about David's his warning. I think, in fact,
he wrote in nineteen eighty three how scholarly traditions of

(38:18):
disbelief are powerful influences in the way folklorists study their materials,
which kind of to your point, there is often sort
of a dismissive attitude toward a physical reality, and UFOs
to be studied by a scholarly or from any scholarly perspective,
it generally falls into sociology or folklore. And so, like

(38:39):
you're saying, it seems that that aspect, that side of
this topic seems to be neglected almost in the sciences
and in academic studies.

Speaker 1 (38:48):
Well, that's true. The UFOs have met negative receptions from
the physical scientists, but also from many of these social
sciences and humanity is I mean, there's many good reasons
for that. I mean, most UFO reports do turn out
to be some sort of you know, mistaken identity. But

(39:09):
there's also the part, a part left over that is
quite fascinating in its own right, and it's unfortunate that
there's not more consideration for that. There are also there's
also the confusion between what people actually see and what

(39:30):
they describe what they talk about, because there's a strong
tendency to reshape and experience into familiar terms, and those
familiar terms involve the beliefs and the expectations that you
have in the first place. Why people in eighteen ninety
seven were looking at a light in the sky and

(39:51):
they thought it was the headlight of an airship. It wasn't,
but that's just the way they thought.

Speaker 6 (39:57):
Yeah, it certainly was. You know, this might be a
good time to get into that some of that, because
I know that, you know, going back to your early years,
you had spent some of your time doing doctoral work,
traveling to various newspaper archives and studying those airship reports,
which I can only imagine was quite an undertaking in
the pre Internet era, Eddie, where you're actually having to

(40:19):
travel and sift through those kinds of reports. Nowadays, if
you've got a newspapers, dot com account it's much easier
to find reports. So you were doing it back in
the day when it required a lot of work, a
lot of travel, a lot of expense, and you were
analyzing this phenomena in those early instances. These what some
call precursors to the modern UFO narrative, but obviously there
are some similarities. Let's talk a little about your work

(40:42):
in that area.

Speaker 1 (40:43):
Okay, Yeah, I did do a lot of traveling around.
I probably saw some over three thousand, eighteen nine six
ninety seven newspapers. And I've also started up again when
the computerized opportunities have arisen. I bet they're now quite

(41:05):
there's quite a lot on the Internet that you can
get on these things now. And you know, I have
hundreds and hundreds of pages of reports and I'm actually
trying to write a book on that.

Speaker 6 (41:17):
Yeah, I compare it to comfort food being able to
look at old newspapers. But I think what we're finding
with the ease of access to earlier newspapers and keyword searchers,
where now these things can be indexed.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
As a yes, yes, that makes it much easier to
find more fan of airshare for UFO type reports outside
of eighteen ninety six ninety seven. I mean it takes
it would take you forever if you were just going,
you know, year by year.

Speaker 6 (41:42):
You know, again, that has really opened up the research
tools that are available to researchers. Does it shift your
approach in the way that you interpret earlier let's call
them pre ufology reports of aerial phenomena.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
I don't know that it's changed it much. I know
some people have done a great deal of work with these,
you know, computerized newspapers and keyword searching, and have found
all kinds of things going on in the you know,
the nineteenth century and early early twentieth century that have

(42:18):
some relationship to UFOs or the kind of things we
have come to consider anomalies. And you find all kinds
of them in the past, like well, monsters of you know,
Harry monsters or wild men or whatever you want to
call them. This has gone on, and then those all

(42:38):
kinds of lights in the sky, not just airships or
unusual objects seen in the sky. There's a lot of
it out there. It's just hard to put together what
do you do with all of that stuff?

Speaker 6 (42:52):
As far as that final sentiment there, what do you
do with all that stuff? From that conversation I had
with Thomas Bullard, I often find myself thinking that generally
about the UAP topic, especially the kinds of things that
make headlines these days, What do you do with all
that stuff? But now I'll shifting gears a little here
and getting a different perspective. Another colleague of mine who
appreciates the folkloric side of all this and how myth

(43:14):
and reality sometimes converge when it comes to a topic
like UAP, that is my colleague Joshua Cutchen. And Josh
has some very unique perspectives on all of this as
a person who has studied the literal history of this,
the speculative side of UAP cases, and also what we
might extend into the broader realm of what many call
Fortiana or Fortien studies, named after Charles fort one of

(43:36):
the early chroniclers of what would eventually become known as
UFO cases and similar strange phenomena. But yes, Josh has
a lot of interesting perspectives, and I asked him about
the very complex interrelationship between the UFO reality and the
folklore that often arises from it. This is what Josh
had to say A lot of people who wouldn't have
taken the subject seriously before. Now they're looking at UFOs

(43:57):
and they're trying to get back to the root of
what gave rise to the folklore that really prevailed in
the eighties and nineties. And it's interesting to see that
if we all looked at this phenomena in that way,
I think that we might end up doing a lot
of the kind of work you have done, where you're saying, Hey,
what is the connection here, where do these stories come from?
What do they really represent?

Speaker 5 (44:17):
Yeah, I think it's a really good point. I mean,
I find this to be sort of almost a personal
alchemy at the end of the day, right I mean,
because you're sort of sifting, and when I I mean
the project that I'm working on right now I'm wrapping
up has been one of the most profoundly spiritual things
that I've done in a while, because it's asking me
to question myself and question my own beliefs and sort
of find a way to reconcile my own faith with

(44:38):
a lot of these topics. But you know, I mean,
I think the Fortiana and it's in its best forms,
really does thrive on comparativism. You know, I mean, we
expect dissimilarities between things, so when you see similarities, it
does raise a red flag. And you know, I find
it always incredibly compelling that something from you know, a
farmer in Casey, Iowa will match like it will be

(45:00):
a one for one match for something from you know,
sume Aria, right, millions thousands of years ago, rather and
uh and I think that that's the importance because at
the end of the day, to me, that suggests that
the least interesting thing quote unquote least interesting thing that's
going on is something akin to Young's collective unconscious, which
is still a shocking reality if that's the sort of

(45:21):
you know, reality that we're embedded in. But uh yeah,
folklore in general sort of gets a bad rap my.

Speaker 4 (45:29):
You know.

Speaker 5 (45:29):
My co author Tim Renner says that, you know, folklore
is not fiction. And what he'll say is, you know,
there may be a myth that a bad spirit lives
in this berry tree, right, but what that might be
encoding is don't eat the damn berries. Right. So there's
always there's there's often wisdom in it, even when it's
even when it's patently not true in our current understanding
of the world. Doesn't mean there's not some sort of

(45:50):
wisdom in it. So yeah, I find that to be
just a really rewarding way to look at the phenomena.
And at the end of the day, even if all
of this doesn't have some sort of objective reality like
the rest of us would like for it too, it
just says so much about the way that we perceive
the world and about the human condition, and about the
way that our brains think, you know, sort of along
the lines of that a collective, unconscious idea. But like,

(46:12):
I still think there's value in saying, look at how
universal the human experience can be when you get to
this granular level.

Speaker 6 (46:20):
I think those are excellent perspectives. Sometimes we learn as
much about ourselves from the aspects of the phenomena that
are perceived, rather than actually being part of its reality.
We're going to wrap up with a few final thoughts
here in the segment that follows more on the folklore
and the mythology that arises from these mysteries. Right here
on the Micah Hanks program.

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Speaker 6 (47:57):
Welcome Back. UAP are undeniably a mystery. I think one
might argue that most sightings of these mysterious phenomena probably
do have prosaic explanations. But if we were to try
and argue that really UAP are nothing more than a
kind of myth of the space age? Then what do

(48:20):
we do with all that data that organizations like the
All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office are collecting, and of course
which civilian organizations have been collecting now for decades. It
would seem that there are an awful lot of sightings
of things that a skeptic would tell you are probably
all illusions or misperceptions or fantasies or whatever else that

(48:41):
have given rise to this UFO folklore of the space age.
But is that really the most complete and even the
likeliest interpretation. Again, coming back to the discussion I had
a while back with Thomas Bullard, one aspect of our discussion,
moving away from the folklore side of things, had to
do with the actual hard data that we collect about UAPN.

(49:02):
In this next audio SoundBite, doctor Bullard expands on the
importance of looking at the data and its proper interpretation,
while of course recognizing the factors that can give rise
to irrational beliefs and again what we might characterize as
a UFO folklore. Here's what doctor Bullard had to say
about the hard data when it comes to UAP studies.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
We know that there are thousands and thousands of reports
that are made every year New Fawn and National UFO
Reporting Center collect you know, eight nine ten thousand reports
a year. That's a huge number of reports, and you
know there must be a far more fightings than there

(49:43):
are these reports. But we also know that most of
them are mistaken identities. What's left is a very small
number of cases that are really interesting, and many of
those are going to turn out to be you know,
gray area type cases, things that you just can't really

(50:05):
make much out of. But then there is this final
residue of cases that are just truly fascinating that investigators
have not been able to explain, and that means skeptical
investigators like a Condon or a blue Book, and just
to know that those things are there, that makes for

(50:28):
a very interesting, interesting sense that there is a little
there's another dimension of our world that we really know about, right,
really acknowledge.

Speaker 6 (50:40):
Yes, and something that you know, again without making any
kind of assertions about its origins or what it may constitute.
There of course seems to be the implication. It is implied,
based on certain witness accounts, that there may be intelligence
behind some of the phenomena that has been observed. But
again it is a bit of a leap to say

(51:00):
therefore extraterrestrial, therefore ultraterrestrial, mediterrestrial, interdimensional, you know, whatever your
favorite pet theory may be. But now on that point,
having looked at the history of this phenomena as you have,
and of course this is really a theme in the
myth and mystery of UFOs, you touch on the fact
that Charles fort really maybe was one of the first

(51:22):
who was looking at these things outside of being anomalous
phenomena or supernatural phenomena, ghost lights, prodigies, or portentse and
he is saying, listen, maybe we're looking at a super zeppelin.
You know, something has dropped to anchor. He seems to
be sort of ascribing the notion that these may have
some you know, some sort of a source outside of Earth.

(51:42):
Would you say he was really the first and therefore
one who really shaped attitudes that would emerge only in
the decades to follow about the broader UFO phenomena.

Speaker 1 (51:51):
Well, he certainly thought more in the modern terms or
what would be would become the modern terms of anthology
than anyone before. And though the idea that there were
beings on other planets goes back a long way and
had a long course of literature, and even that it

(52:12):
was even part of astronomy astronomers to believe that there
were other worlds just like ours and just took that
as for granted, all the plurality of worlds. Yes, and
they even I guess they in a few cases did
conceive of some kind of travel between worlds. But it
was really Ford who and the science fiction writers of course,

(52:36):
who did a lot of shaping of the way we think. Now.

Speaker 6 (52:40):
You have been referred to Eddie as being again one
of the socio cultural type researchers into UFOs. Again in
your writing, what I see is that you say, we
must understand the social side, the mythological, the folklore, but
that does not preclude the possibility that there are phenomena
behind this topic. I mean, do you ever feel that
there's this sort of stratification and that some maybe see

(53:02):
you as too skeptical because you're looking at the folklor angle.

Speaker 1 (53:06):
Well, there are some people who take any kind of
skepticism as a heresy disloyalty. But if you don't, then
you're really not going to find the thing you're really
looking for, which is the truth? Where are the really

(53:27):
good cases? Do they really mean that there is something
from outside or something that we don't know, you know,
whatever the actual cause of the phenomenon might be. I
do think there is ample evidence that there is something

(53:47):
unusual out there. What it is, I'm not I don't know,
and I don't feel the need to go somewhere I
don't know where, know anything about and try to make
something out of that. But I understand that there's a
lot of personal investment that people make in UFOs being real.

(54:09):
They want them to be spaceships. They don't care really about,
you know, the rationality of the of the conclusion, Like
the Phoenix lights, it can very clearly explain those as
being a group of airplanes flying across the state of

(54:32):
Arizona that a lot of people saw, and they turned
into UFOs and the ways people thought about them, and
there's still claim to be, you know, one of the
greatest mass sighting in all history. But a lot of
people saw it. But what they saw were airplanes, thevery airplanes,

(54:53):
and then well later on that night, some flares dropped
from military airplanes. The case is very strong, but that's
the solution. The people don't want to hear that if
they believe in UFOs. It's unfortunate because if you don't
have some skepticism, you don't you become an easy target

(55:16):
for the people who don't want to believe. They can say, well,
you know, look at this, They'll accept anything as a UFO.
They shouldn't be that way.

Speaker 6 (55:26):
With some of the current technological advances. Are we now
looking at an era perhaps where science and technology maybe
will help us pin down that there could be a
tangible phenomena and maybe the case for study of it
will be strengthened.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
I would say undoubtedly.

Speaker 4 (55:43):
So.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
The information we've gotten from the Knimitz case two thousand
and four, the USS Theodore Roosevelt sightings in twenty fourteen fifteen,
and this footage we've seen is certainly among the most
impressive that we've ever seen. And well, photo photographic evidence

(56:08):
is pretty difficult anyway. There are lots of ways of
making mistakes or even faking it. You know, you know,
is it live or is it photo shop? So that's
always been highly questionable. But you know, here we have
it from an authoritative source. I think I think we

(56:29):
can assume the Navy isn't faking it. Yeah, So, yeah,
I think we've got something really really powerful here to
show that there is a physical phenomenon. What it is
that again becomes a problem, But it hardly seems likely

(56:49):
that if you know, if we're testing some kind of
super drones or some new kind of aircraft propulsion, why
if we had it in two thousand and four we
still make jet planes now. It just doesn't make much sense.

Speaker 6 (57:03):
That's a really good point. But another one too that
I often see people neglect is how can we account
going back at very least to the end of the
Second World War, But if we look at the so
called pre euphological reports, perhaps even earlier, how do we
account for similar descriptions of aerial objects that go back
that far in time. Again, I think it really is

(57:24):
incumbent upon us to understand this phenomenon in its totality,
and therefore understanding the history is helpful too. So going
in the opposite direction, like you're saying, why aren't we
using more of that technology in our current leading edge aircraft, Well,
I would say, who had that technology decades ago when
these things were being seen back then?

Speaker 1 (57:40):
Yeah? Exactly, I couldn't agree more. It's wonderful that some
of this is actually coming out, because it's sort of
like it almost leaked around the edges with this new
program that some senators got together to study UFOs, and

(58:01):
we got a lot of military reports in the late
nineteen forties and early nineteen fifties, but then they kind
of clammed down on it. We didn't get very much.
But when you start seeing the tic TAC thing, it
looks a bit different from what they were seeing in
the nineteen fifties, but it's essentially the same kind of thing.
It's just kind of smooth, has high performance, high speed

(58:25):
run circles around our jets. That's the same thing that
we were getting back then. So yeah, it is something
that you'd have a very hard time explaining.

Speaker 6 (58:33):
Yeah, Eddie, I have to also point out that, again
going back to nineteen fifty seven, the descriptions of the
objects and the level and sightings that you were looking
at when you were in third grade, long, tubular or
egg shaped. Now, some of them were larger than the
so called tic TAC, but I mean their general shape
in dynamics were very similar to what appears in the
DA videos.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
Yes, yeah, yeah, you'll get a lot of that the
flying saucer type objects that would buzz military aircraft fly
circles around them like they were almost showing off and
then flying away. That's very much like what these tic
TACs were doing.

Speaker 6 (59:12):
It's fascinating to me to see that there is a
certain degree of historical continuity, which, again that doesn't remove
the case for skepticism, but it certainly makes overt skepticism
and dismissal a little more difficult. As far as concluding
thoughts here, how does science proceed with the study of
these sorts of phenomena, especially in an era where we

(59:35):
may be looking at finally having instrumental data and innovative
systems that are showing that perhaps there is more than
mere myth to a subject like, for instance, UFOs Well.

Speaker 1 (59:46):
I think once you have some really solid data that
can stand up to any kind of criticism, then there
were science even the most resistant, the most resistant scientists
that have a very hard time resisting that. I'm just
afraid that the human nature being what it is, there's

(01:00:08):
going to be all kinds of ways to circumvent good
evidence to preserve the status quo. One thing I noticed
lately that you know, the Navy was talking about these
these films of the objects, and then a little bit
later there was a report of from the Navy of

(01:00:30):
some small suitcase size objects flying around the Navy operations areas.
These things were very low performance, low speed. They were
pretty obviously drones of some sort, probably being used for
espionage purposes, so definitely a matter of interest to the

(01:00:55):
Navy or to the government as a whole, but something
that could also be used to discredit the the better images,
the better. UFO reports that the Navy's.

Speaker 6 (01:01:11):
Been getting interesting point.

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
Yeah, so I just wonder if you know, that's the
kind of kind of route they'll take if there's going
to be some kind of resistance that is, you know, Okay,
here we have cases of drones. These are definitely drones,
and so they must all be drones. But of course
those things on filmal running the jets are not drones

(01:01:37):
in any normal sense unless there's something very new and
highly advanced, something we probably didn't have in two thousand
and four when they had the same had similar objects
in sight.

Speaker 6 (01:01:53):
As we're wrapping things up here again, the perspectives of
a folklorest like Thomas Bullard or my colleague Joshua Cutchen
or many others who look at that angle of the
phenomenon will recognize that, indeed, even if there is a
phenomenon at the heart of all this, it is important
to step back sometimes and look at how we shape
our reality around the observations that we make. In other words,

(01:02:17):
is the phenomenon many of us claim to have seen
truly a good representation of the reality of the UAP enigma.
I don't dispute that there is a phenomenon, but I'm
also confident that many skeptics and believers alike have projected
their own ideas onto this, and it is created, in

(01:02:37):
its own way a unique reality for them, which is
really much more a folklore that we use to inform
ourselves about what UAP represents. We have to look very
carefully at the data and sometimes take a step back
so we can see the big picture. That's all for now.
I'll catch you guys next time, and as always, take

(01:02:58):
care and stay strange out there.