April 1, 2025 • 38 mins
Join Michelle Barone and Ashleigh McPherson on RED as they delve into the gripping story of Bruce Bryan, a man who spent 29 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit. In this episode, Bruce shares his harrowing experiences, the racial and social injustices he faced, and his journey towards exoneration. This emotionally charged discussion sheds light on the systemic issues within the criminal justice system, the impact of wrongful convictions, and the importance of mental health. Stay tuned for Part 2 to hear more about Bruce's fight for justice and the support from notable figures that helped secure his freedom.
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Mental Health America of Dutchess County: Dedicated to promoting mental health and providing comprehensive support services to individuals and families. Learn more and find resources at https://mhadutchess.org.
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From Orphan to Millionaire: From the gunfire of a Colombian nightmare to the fulfillment of the American Dream, discover Steve Prohaska's gripping journey to survival in his unyielding memoir. https://bigstevebigmoves.com/product/book/
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00:00 Introduction
02:02 Bruce Bryan's Early Life and Wrongful Conviction
09:29 The Incident and Its Aftermath
15:01 Survival Mindset in Marginalized Communities
17:54 Crime and Social Conditions
20:16 Community Integration Efforts
24:32 Personal Story of Injustice
32:19 The Flaws in the Jury System
36:23 Conclusion and Next Steps
-----------------------------------------------------
Support Our Sponsors!
Mental Health America of Dutchess County: Dedicated to promoting mental health and providing comprehensive support services to individuals and families. Learn more and find resources at https://mhadutchess.org.
Mahoney’s Irish Pub: Friday nights at Mahoney’s Irish Pub are where the vibes are HIGH, the drinks are flowing, and the weekend officially begins!
From Orphan to Millionaire: From the gunfire of a Colombian nightmare to the fulfillment of the American Dream, discover Steve Prohaska's gripping journey to survival in his unyielding memoir. https://bigstevebigmoves.com/product/book/
-----------------------------------------------------
Subscribe to the podcast now: https://www.youtube.com/@michellebaroneredpodcast
Check out RED on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michellebaronered?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==
Follow Michelle Barone
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michellebaroneonline/
Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@michellebarone?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc
Follow Ashleigh McPherson
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ashhmcpherson/
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YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Ashmcpherson
Check out RED for more: https://michellebaroneonline.com/
-----------------------------------------------
00:00 Introduction
02:02 Bruce Bryan's Early Life and Wrongful Conviction
09:29 The Incident and Its Aftermath
15:01 Survival Mindset in Marginalized Communities
17:54 Crime and Social Conditions
20:16 Community Integration Efforts
24:32 Personal Story of Injustice
32:19 The Flaws in the Jury System
36:23 Conclusion and Next Steps
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to rid. Reddit's Michelle Burne your host, and Ashley
Macpherson your co host. Ash I have to tell you
today this is a topic that I need to shed
light on. It's something Kim Kardashian talks about. It's something
a lot of celebrities are behind. There's been many pardons
right with the government and the president in history because
(00:21):
people are wrongfully convicted in jail, and there's many of them.
And today we're here with someone who's very special to me,
who I met an event in New York City and
he has really changed my life and opened my eyes
to incarceration and how many people are wrongly convicted. So please,
i'd like to welcome Bruce Bryan. How are you.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I'm great honored to be here for you all and
just sit and have this you know, long overdue company.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Long overdue comment. We've been trying to book this for
a while. You were recently featured on Joe Rogan. Yes,
you had one of the highest performing episodes that he
ever had because it was just so moving and iconic.
We decided to make this two episodes and really spotlight
you to the best of our ability. Because you've spent
twenty nine years in prison for something you did not do.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Absolutely, hey, guys, before today's episode, I want to talk
to you about something that Ashley and I care a
lot about.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Mental health.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
That's right, taking care of your mental health is just
as important as taking care of your physical health, and
Mental Health America of Duchess County is the perfect place
for that health.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Absolutely, Mental Health America of Dutchess County is super empowering
and helps so many people with so many problems.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Honestly, it's pretty amazing seeing how mental health actually affects people.
Speaker 5 (01:45):
I mean the guests that we've had on the show,
We've talked about mental health in almost every episode, and
it's a serious topic.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Now's the time to prioritize your mental well being. If
you're suffering from anxiety, depression, or anything mental health related,
visit Mental Health America Duchess County at MHA Duchess dot org.
So let's start from the beginning. How did this all happen?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
I think wrong place, wrong time, wrong affiliations with people
in a open drug market space, and just being at
the wrong place at the wrong time. And I think
back then in the early nineties, it was more ubiquitous
than that it actually is now, right, because you had
(02:30):
certain narcotics teams like they call TNT that were do
entire sweeps in particular neighborhoods that were impacted by you know,
crack cocaine. Of course, back then you were sentenced one
hundred times more than someone caught with regular cocaine, which
is the same thing, and that was because of the
(02:53):
Rockefeller drug blow. There is no difference. One is in
a pure reform because it's cooked with bacon soda, and
the other one is just cocaine, which which we all
know comes from a plant, the cocoa leaf, right, co
one cooked ones not right, But one is associated with
poor black and brown communities because it's a cheaper high,
(03:14):
like you for a five dollars crack, right, And it's
highly addictive, much more addictive than probably powdered cocaine.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
So the cooked cocaine, the crack cocaine, is more addictive.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
I think it's a bit more addictive.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Can you make more with less? Is that why it's cheaper?
Speaker 2 (03:31):
I don't think you can necessarily make more with less.
I just think that the level of addiction is higher,
is higher, So it's associated with the demand particular demographic, yes, and.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Demand demographic, and the demands higher.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
In suburban areas. They may have called it freebasing. God right,
because when celebrities like which Is Prior and others were
utilizing cocaine in that manner, it was called freebasing. When
it got into the inner cities that we came crack cocaine,
got it the same course, it's the same thing, but
of course sometimes people mix different chemicals in it, but
(04:06):
it's essentially the root of it is cocaine.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Where did you grow up?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I grew up in Manhattan Lower East Side, and then
my family moved to Queens when I was about nine
years old.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Were you running with the bad guys at the time?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
At the I think early on for me abud eighty
three eighty four is around the time that the crack
ever hit New York City, and that was the same
time that I was coming of age.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Gotcha, So you're teenager.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Teenager, fourteen, fifteen years old, impressionable. You know, you see
people in the inner city, you know, you see what
glitters and you feel like, you know, you gain an
attraction to that, you know what I mean. Start, Yeah,
then you start exploring right, what does it mean to
sell low weed? At this time? Of course we was illegal,
(04:59):
and you start making what you see to be a
fast dollar, even though you have parents in the household
who worked hard their entire lives and never smoked a
cigarette and never were involved in anything like that. You know,
Caribbean parents from Antigua and Dominica. So it was a
lot different, you know, moving from Manhattan to Queens and
then coming of age at that particular era for me,
(05:22):
very impressionable. Looking at the outside influences right and how
doing bad can result in you appearing to look good
or do good. Right gives you more money, gives you
more money, but not just money, I think also status,
prestige and just in the inner city. So I think
(05:43):
a lot of us fell victim to that.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
You. Oh, you're so young, and those are your role models, those.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Are your role models outside of your home. It's like
even today, many people would say social media has a
greater influence on young people with than their actual parents.
Do it true, or then their teachers do, right, because
they probably spend more time on social media.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
They always say, they always say that your community shapes
your children more than your household does it and because
they you know, with your parents, you're like, ah, whatever,
what do you know? That's the attitude, right, It's like,
now you look back, you're like, man, my parents are
so good from the Caribbean, came here for a better life.
We moved to New York, the greatest city in the world,
and now this happens to your son, right because they
(06:31):
don't really know exactly what's here, but they did the
best they could, right.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
Yeah, absolutely, especially growing up like in the neighborhood, it's like, oh,
you hear your parents saying one thing, but it's like
all the kids are hanging out with their doing another thing.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (06:43):
Obviously it's kind of inevitable that you're going to fall
into the same you know.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Absolutely, so why you may have holes in your sneakers.
You see other guys with new sneakers and then you say.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Well I want that, I want Jordans tims.
Speaker 5 (06:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
And then of course we live in a society that's
you know, generated by capitalism and materialism. Right.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
So it's so funny you say that because everybody, you know,
I help a lot of businesses, and I've been doing
marketing a long time, and I hear, well, how come
you know we're always in it to make money, because
sometimes people always say, well, I'm in it for humanitarian
if we live in a capitalist society, right, So, whether
it's being involved in gangs, being involved in drugs, being
(07:23):
involved in business, we are here in America and trained
to make money. So the drive is always money power respect, Right,
that's the mindset that we're all here for whatever way
you gain that, it's different per neighborhood. And you fell
victim to that.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, so I think the ambition was there, but the
route to achieving correct what is that you wanted was
the wrong way about, you know, going about things. But
you know, it's funny you say the whole capitalism thing
and what society is motivated and generated by. As an
adult throughout the cost of my incarceration, one of the
(07:59):
things that I've learned is that the happiest people aren't
necessarily to people who have the most stuff, because I
think at a certain point it just becomes stuff, right,
Like you know, like the cars in the houses, it
becomes stuff, right. I mean you can get but so
many burken and Kelly bags, right, it becomes stuff, And
but so many diamonds before they become stuff.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Whatever.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
It may have some value, you know, monetary value, but
they're simply stuff. And I think that the happiest people
in the world other people who have found the cause
that is greater than themselves and have committed to it. Yep,
you know, those are the people that I've learned have
found a sense of internal happiness. They're not chasing happiness.
(08:42):
Happiness is not something that they pursue, but it ensues
from within.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Oh what caused you to determine that? That is a
powerful statement?
Speaker 2 (08:51):
I think you know, deep reflection, you know, sitting in
the cell twenty hours a day, sometimes twenty three hours
a day and reflecting and thinking and reading, you know,
and doing a specific type of reading, right, like not
just novels or books, but a specific type of reading
(09:12):
that that was gravitated to for some reason. Wow. You
know autobiographies, if not autobiographies, self development books, all books
that are based in facts and the history.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Wow, that's amazing. So bringing it back to the story,
so you fell victim to this. What happened on the
night that you that they claimed that.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
You It wasn't even the night, It was actually a day. Okay,
it was actually a dreary day, light mists coming down,
light rain coming down. And in the neighborhood that this
actually happened, that where the tragic death of Travis Lee
happened is called South Jamaica. It's an open drug market.
(09:58):
And without getting into deep specifics, a shootout happened between
you know, two men.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
How old were you at the time.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
I was twenty two born on twenty three.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Yeah, so a shootout happened.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
You were there, A shootout happened. I was there, and
this step son of one of the guys that were
shooting at another guy unfortunately was struck by a straight
bullet and lost his life.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Yea. And they blame that on you.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
And they blamed that on me and two other people,
one that wasn't even present, and also myself and the
actual person that admitted openly admitted that he was it
was an incident between him and this other guy.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
So did you have a weapon on you?
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Absolutely not?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Wow? And so how did they come up and determine
that you committed this crime?
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Well, I had a rogue prosecutor by the name of
John Scarper and who was later on convicted as a
defense attorney for you know, bribery and tainted evidence. But
he has a history of doing that and like that.
Here has several homicide cases that he was involved in
(11:14):
fabricating evidence on and then his evidence, his evidence was
substance abuse users saying, well, he was one of the guys,
you know, and then they get a deal for something
that they may have been arrested for.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Pardon of some sort.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah, but I think I think more than anything, when
someone loses a loved one, they just want revenge. Yes, right,
So whoever gets arrested, they don't know if a person
did it or not. They just or lock them up,
and you know.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
In this moment, So what was the process? Like you
you committed you were there the night of the when
the crime was committed. What happened following that? That night?
The next time?
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Following that, I took off and I actually went to
eat later on that night. Because no one actually knew
or was aware that someone had been shot. It wasn't
until the news later on did someone realized, oh wow,
the kid got shot.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
How old was he?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
He was about twelve years old, Travis Lily. I like
to say his name because I like the honor that life,
that that tragic life that was lost. I think it's
important that he was with his stepfather at the time.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Oh my gosh, and the stepfather lived.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (12:41):
Wow, So it was the stepfather in a shootout with
someone else and then the sun god ahead.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
That's how it happened, Okay, And so the stepfather went
to jail too. No, never, so he was set free,
bringing a minor to this crazy.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
He was never charged. He's never chide. And you know,
if if two people actually engage in the shooting and
a cop is killed, no matter who's bullet killed it,
both people are charged with them.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
That's why I don't know why the stepfathers.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah. I mean I've had countless guys that I was
incarcerated with that had very very similar incidents where they
were in the shooting and maybe a principal or somebody
was shot, and both parties went to jail despite who's
bullet because for them it's or you were engaged in
a shooting and right, you know, or even if you
do a robbery and a cop shoots another cop and
(13:40):
kills them, you're responsible for that homicide despite the fact
that you didn't do any shooting. You're normally charged because
had it not been for the robbery, they're saying, this
friendly fire would not have happened. It's a bit, you know,
it's a bit convoluted in terms of, you know, the
law and things like that.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
But so the young young fella got got killed, unfortunately,
and after that you went out to eat, right, you
went to eat.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah, we went to eat. We left. I left the
scene and I.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Went, do you remember him getting shot?
Speaker 2 (14:19):
No, no one ever knew, anyone.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Like you said, So you just left, went to eat,
like no one got hit. We're good.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
And then a shooter. A shooting happens in any neighborhood.
You normally find out when bullets are flying, you're running,
you're hiding. No one is standing there to see who
gets shot, where the bullets are flowing, where they're coming from,
where you're shooting at. I mean, for the most part,
in the city, guys, they don't go to the range
(14:48):
and learn how to shoot. It's they're in the street,
you know, there's they're in survival moment, right, they have
a mindset of survival or I'm just out here trying
to survive. And when you come from the inner cities,
when you come from marginalized communities. That's the predominant mindset survive.
(15:09):
It doesn't until it isn't until you get into until
you change the way you look at life, right that
you beginning to say, well, I don't want to survive.
I want to thrive like everyone else, and I deserve
to thrive. But when you live in these particular pockets
of society, survival is essentially what you're knowing. That's I mean,
(15:30):
that's the South Bronx, that's South Jamaica, Queens, that's you know, Brownsville,
East New York, bedsterar of Brooklyn. That's that's ubiquitous in
any impoverished, marginalized black and brown ghetto in America. While
you're always in the mindset is I'm surviving because you
(15:51):
living day to day and you're trying to survive as
best as you know.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
And you know it's terrible because we live in Poughkeepsie,
which is about an hour and a half north, and
there's a lot of black and brown folks up there,
and there's a clear divide between the city of Poughkeepsie
and the town of Poughkeepsie, and the same with Newburg.
Newburgh's like one of the worst places to live in
New York State. It's got the inner city and then
the town and the town that surround Newburgh are gorgeous, beautiful, unbelievable.
(16:20):
If half, if a quarter, or a tenth of that
money poured into the city, there would be no problems. Right.
But the gang violence, the drugs, the substance abuse, the
rapes that are committed, right, all these crimes, the killings,
all of them, you know a lot of them come
from there, and it's and it's terrible because there's so
many people right there that could help.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
But yes, which I'm glad you brought that up, because
what you're saying essentially is that crime isn't necessarily about people, right.
Crime is more so about a social condition that produces crime.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Right. So most people would say, oh, we're advocating for
public safety, so we don't want to let this person
out of jail or we don't want this to happen
in our community. Well what is public safety? Right? I
think when you look at poverty as a crime generitive factor,
you understand that, you know, no one is born a criminal,
(17:15):
No one is born with what society would deemed to
be deviant behavior unless they have a mental illness, of course,
which is closely associated with like sex crimes and stuff
like that, this person is really suffering from some mental illness.
Crime is a social condition that's produced by poverty. And
if you understand poverty, you understand that poverty is violence
(17:37):
in and of itself. Right, when you don't know where
your next outfit is coming from, or your next meal
is coming from, or where your other necessity is coming from,
your shelter, food, shelter, and crola. That's violence, right, Whether
it's psychological violence, emotional violence, it's a sense of violence, right.
And one of the things I've come to learn is
that public safety itself, it's less about the absence of crime.
(18:07):
It's more about the presence of opportunity. So where the
presence of opportunity exists, the crime decreases exponentially. Absolutely, you
don't see crime in Scarsdale, right, Like somebody might burglarize
a home, but it's very rare that you see crime
in the scars And you talked about the town and
the city of Newburgh. Right, one may be crime written
(18:29):
and the other may You may not say crime. It's
because it's not the people, it's the social conditions that
they live in. Right, But society, mainstream society, would have
you believe it's them over there, particularly black and brown people, right,
because we have a level of systemic racism that exists
within the criminal legal system. And Newburgh used to be
(18:53):
excluded from the Seven Basic Neighborhoods, Right. The seven Basic
Neighborhoods were seven neighborhoods in New York's City that made
up the vast majority of New York State prison population.
So like almost seventy percent of the people in New
York State prison thirty years ago came from seven basic
neighborhoods in New York City, the five boroughs that has
(19:16):
since changed, and now Newburgh, po Keepsie in Rochester and
places like that have become you know, the case is
that are included in those basic neighborhoods that you know,
produce incarceration and produce fine I've been in prisons where,
like Great Metals, you walk in there and it's you're like, damn,
(19:39):
I ain't see nobody I know from Brooklyn or Queens
from around the way. Everybody in there's from Albanyah, And
you're like, Damn, I didn't know albany had a community
like that. When I got the comstock, it took me
a week to find somebody that I know. Prior to that,
any prison I walk into, before I get to a
south they already got word, your fashion is here. Man,
make sure he's good. He needs to that he just
(20:00):
got to because that was my nickname fashion, Right, So
they say fashion is here? What you get the great metals?
And you say fashion is here. It's like Albany and
Poughkeepsie are there and they're like, you'll know him, and
it's a bunch of young guys that I don't know.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
It said, you know, we did an event in Poughkeepsie
called First Friday Poughkeepsie. We got four thousand people there.
It was I was the senior vice president of marketing
for a bank and I did their marketing. You know,
I ran the department and myself, my husband's company, and
my best friend's company got together and the president of
the bank to really change the landscape because we wanted
(20:36):
to integrate the city and the town. That was the
whole goal. And I thought, you know, we heard that
this was happening with the new leadership. And they got
like two hundred people to come but it was all
predominantly white business people. And my boss at the bank said,
I want to get the cultures together. And I looked
at him and I said, I know everybody in the
city of Poughkeepsie because I sang for a long time.
(20:58):
So I used to record in the projects. I was
this little white chick in my BMW. You know. I
didn't come from anything, but I worked hard and I
was bartending and I came my BMW to the projects.
Everyone's smoking weed and whatever else. And I get up
and it's heat controlled, so I'm dying a sweat in
that place. Starting I'm like, man, I feel bad for
(21:19):
these people, but they all became my really good friends.
I was like, I got you. I can do this.
I know everybody in the streets. I do, and I
you know, I was never one that like hung out
or did anything bad. I went there to record music.
They respected me, I paid them and I went home.
I never did drugs, and I never fell into any
of that. I was never into it. But I knew
that these people could sing R and B like no
(21:40):
other and they were going to teach me right. And
so I went there and I did my thing, and
we did this event called First Friday ten years later,
four thousand people came. We did it in an inner
city area that white people typically don't go to, and
it was the best event we've ever had. The city's
ever seen COVID hit. So we had to stop the
(22:01):
events and we didn't bring them back. But the Chamber
of Commerce, the leadership, the banks, the local we had
eighty vendors come. That moment was the only time that
we've ever integrated where my guy Slim from down the
road was with the president of a bank. And that
needs to happen. It needs to happen. It's the only
(22:23):
way to make change work. And Slim is a great guy.
He just has no opportunity because he doesn't know the
guy that you know. And you're one hundred percent right,
it's lack of opportunity. And I tell this day actually
all the time, because I've been around and I've seen
a lot, and I do feel like Poughkeepsie's become so impoverished,
and there's been times where it's on the upswing. But
(22:44):
and I've been a part of that movement, but there's
only so much one person or a team of people
can do. And sometimes the bad infiltrates the good right,
So I just feel like there is a lack of
opportunity and I'm tired of it and I'm ready to
do something else because I can't create the opportun tunity
there anymore. And it's sad because I don't want to
give up on my hometown. I grew up there. I
(23:05):
love it, But at the same time, it's like, when
is enough enough? And when am I going to get
my shot? Because I want opportunity.
Speaker 6 (23:12):
Shout out to our incredible partner, Steve Prohashka from Big
Steve Big Moves dot com. He has a book called
From Orphan to Millionaire where he shares his incredible story
about becoming a millionaire after being an orphan. If you're
ready to elevate your mindset, master resilience and make big
moves in life in business, make sure you check out
(23:33):
Big Steve Big Moves dot com where you can find
his book. And if reading isn't enough, Steve takes it
to the stage. He's a dynamic public speaker. He delivers
game changing talks on partnerships, leadership, success, and overcoming obstacles.
Steve is one of a kind and completely dynamics. So
if you're looking for a speaker that will change the
(23:55):
game for your event and beyond, make sure you check
out Big Steve Big Moves dot com and Big Steve
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Speaker 4 (24:03):
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(24:24):
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the right way.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
So I feel like there's totally a system systemic issue here.
I don't know how to fix it, but if you
ever come up with a way, and you want my help,
I'm here.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
I think just being vocal about it, you know, as
you are now, it makes it different. I think Jesse
using your voice sometimes is just talking about something.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
You know, you know the firefighters in the LA fires
that were incarcerated or overlooked until you know Kim and
Scott Budennick from ARC begin to highlight and say, well,
you know you got incarcerated people fighting these fires for
whatever it was, you know, five dollars a day slave
wages hopefully to get some time cut off their sentence.
(25:19):
Because I do believe they get that as well, which
is a good incentive, you know. And I know for
a long time they weren't able to become firefighters. Now
I think that has since.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Changed, right because of the voices.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Yes, but you know, when you use your voice to
magnify an issue, as she has, it makes a difference.
It matters.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
And that's what we were talking about before. You know,
Kim has done so much with wrongfully accused? Do you
call it a criminal? If you're wrongfully accused? What is
the right term?
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Wrongfully convicted? But we don't call them criminals? Could be
believer as a stigma so we stay formally incarcerated people
or incarcerated people because we don't like their circumstances to
define who they are.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Agreed, So I want to get back to your story.
So that night you went out to eat. The next day,
what happens when did the chips not aligned with your.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Chips not aligned that day? Because in my paranoia, I
felt after I heard that they came to my house,
and later on that evening I said, well, I'm not
going I'm not going to the precinct to talk to anyone.
I disappeared. And then yeah, I disappeared.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Because so that made you look guilty.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
I think in some sense, your flight makes you appear
to be guilty. And where did you go? I was
all over the place. I got arrested in Syracuse, New York,
because like I liked for state New York a little bit,
you know, I like to quiet the comment, I like
the nature. So when I got arrested in Syracuse, they
brought me back to New York.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
How far How long was that?
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Six months? Maybe six months later? But I never felt
throughout the call some of my incarceration that I was
going to be in prison, even before I went to trial,
I never felt that I was gonna be convicted because
I was always told by my co defend y'all, go
home and make sure that you know I've already spoken
(27:15):
until my lawyer and everything. So in my mind, I said,
all right, they're gonna it's gonna get It's gonna eventually
get cleared up.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Was he feeding you alone?
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I mean, it took twenty nine years, but he you know,
he eventually came and spoke to it. But I was
sentenced to thirty seven and a half the life right,
So in all honesty, had it not been for our
governor now and the people like Steve Zeidman and Josh
(27:44):
Dubin and Derek Hamilton and the Sean Carter Foundation, the
mother of jay Z, Gloria Yep, Gloria Carter and all
and the students that were behind it, and with Steve
Zeidman at the forefront, who is the best cleancy lawyer
in the country, I probably would still be in prison
(28:04):
waiting to be exonerated. And I mean, and this is
New York State. There is number three in the country.
I believe Illinois is number one with wrongful convictions. Where
do you say I think Illinois is number one. I'm
not sure what number two is, but I know that
New York State is number three, and I would I would,
(28:27):
I would see. I kind of see why Illinois because
you just said Chicago, and with the level of violence
and gangs, it's like you can anyone can get swept
up into that because I mean, let's face it, it's
like a bunch of young black and brown kids and
Hispanic kids in these pocket neighborhoods you know that are
gang affiliated, and shootings happen, and when violence happens, they
(28:49):
don't they really don't care who they arrest. The system
doesn't care who they arrest. Oftentimes it's a combination of
two things. One, it's swift action. I think that plays
a major role in you know, false arrests and wrongful convictions.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
I think that it's taking action for something that was done.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Yes, I think that. I think that when there was
a particular type of case that happens, I think there's
a rush to try and solve it. I don't think
it's always race. I think race plays a part, but
I think expediency also plays a part.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Yeah, because the people who are still around want justice,
like you said.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Yeah, and not only that the system is like, well,
we have to solve this or we mean, so it
doesn't matter who you arrest, which is something I totally
disagree with. Right, if you want to solve a case,
then you solve it the right way, right, locking up
five young black kids in the Central Park five and
sending them away, and you know, these guys caught hell
(29:58):
inside of jails and then finding out later on that
a Hispanic guy that was a serial rapist that you
knew about all along, but you never went to arrest them,
and then he confessed and then you test and say,
oh it's his DNA. I mean that's I think that's yeah,
(30:18):
that's a I think that's a combination of race, racism,
and better than into the system. But I also think
it's you know, expedient. We got to solve the case, right,
with some level of expediency. We want to solve with
this high profile, we got the media attention, you know,
prosecutor is, let's just solve the case. And then, of
(30:39):
course prosecutors are incentivized for forgetting the cases. I mean,
if you're incentivized, you should also be penalized when you
intentionally do things wrong, correct, But they have qualified immunity,
and that's a problem.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
That is a problem, major problem, because if they were
were held accountable, they would think way more, they would
think way more about it and make a totally different
decision and find real evidence.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
I'm former Queens Prosecutor John scotp on the Ada. There's
no doubt in my mind if he had a thought
when I could go to jail for this, there's no
way certain actions that he took, he would have taken.
It's just that symbol.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
You know.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
So you fled, you said, and I stopped you because
I got We got off on a tangent, which I loved,
but we talked about Syracuse. So they rested you in Syracuse.
You got brought to a lineup. What happened?
Speaker 2 (31:34):
I got arrested and charged, And it's like that. It
was just like that.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Who was looking at you to see that you.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Were you don't You never really know who it is
until after the case. So initially it's who is this
that picked me out of a linea right? And to
be quite honest with you, to this day, I don't
know who it was that picked me out.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Because did you think about that? For twenty nine years?
Speaker 2 (31:56):
I thought about it initially, but I kind of felt like,
as I said, when you really I think after a while,
when you sit back and you think about crime, I
think I think anyone who lost a child or lost
a parent would say, oh, are you arrested somebody? That's it? Yep,
(32:16):
without giving any thought as to you know, the dynamics
of it, right, the ramifications of it or someone else's life.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Right. But because they probably think you did do it,
because the evidence, and they feel justice.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
No, I think they know they knew. I think there's
no doubt in my mind they have to knowing.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Are they still alive?
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Yeah, some of them all are?
Speaker 5 (32:39):
They know.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
There's no doubt my mind that you know, like if
you were a president, there's no there's no mistaken there's
absolutely no mistaken. Zero. I mean, ballistics evidence shows one gun,
one person, not you know, so there's not even a question.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
I just can't believe you didn't even have have a
weapon on you. How could they commit that crime? How
could they say you committed a crime when there's no
physical evidence of a weapon from you that day break.
Speaker 5 (33:09):
All the evidence was you being there and then you
line up and being.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Slapped, and that happens all the time.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Who did it?
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Well, they know they know who is with me.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
He's convicted with you. And what did he say to you.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
He had a separate trial. Well he actually years later
actually told them listen, he didn't have anything to do
with that.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
So how how many years down the line was that?
Speaker 2 (33:30):
That was years down the line that he written he
has written to a particular lawyer and tell her. But
the court system it's quick, like they say, it's quick
and easy to get locked up and charge the appellate process,
it's much more difficult in being free or gaining That
explained that once you're convicted for a crime, and please
(33:53):
understand twelve jurords that are supposed to be jerwords of
your peers back then in Queens, you for the most part,
you're going to get. You know, maybe Forst. Hills, Queens,
you're going to get predominantly twelve older white women that
crime shooting, like, oh, just scared that guy, I'm scared,
you know. So people usually make judgment calls based on
(34:15):
their own fears, and the media plays into the fearmongering
and just instilling fear into the community. Oh well, my
constituents want public safety but no one ever defines what
public safety is right, So for twelve people who I
have no clue about the law, which is something I
feel I'm very passionate about juris being educated, like everyday
(34:36):
people being educated about the jury process.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
It's interesting because I get a card to become a juror,
we have to go, we have to sit there. I
have no idea what I'm going for. I have no
education in this. I know nothing about the law, but
I'm here to determine whether someone gets locked up if
they committed a crime not I don't I've never been
in a courtroom other than first speeding ticket, So what
(35:01):
the heck do I know about something like that?
Speaker 2 (35:04):
That's true, and I really I've recently been in discussions
with people about what it means to educate jurors and
how do we educate jurors on the dynamics of the law, right,
the ins and out of what it means to be
on durid duty.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Yeah, and you can't just be a citizen that can
make a decision like that. How do they know you
don't have a mental health issue? How do they know
you're not struggling with something? How do you know you're
not a person who's being abused. I mean, you just
you're picking random people to come up.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
I mean this morning, I sat in the courtroom for
a colleague of mine who is starting at a trial,
and they start in the jury selection. So you know,
we came in to show her support because she's a
young attorney. And the jury selection when you meet the jurors.
(35:56):
First of all, I don't think it was one jurorid
that hadn't been a victim of a car right, And
one Hispanic guy was saying that, you know, I don't
think I cannot be biased. I don't really know the language,
I don't really know the law. And the judge says, well,
I'm not asking you to I'm going to interpret the law.
(36:18):
I just want you to interpret the facts. I'm going
to interpret the law for you. And so he says, well,
how am I going to you asked me to be
impartion to make my assessment when you're making it fun
me on the law. And so it was like a
back and forth and he was essentially I don't know
if he was actually picked because I left, but in
that moment he was actually required to. Oh, I just
(36:41):
kind of like forced him to say, I'll see what
I can do, but he was alaimant initially about I
don't think I can be fair, right, And if a
person tells you they can't be fair, then you should
believe them, right, like you know, full stop, you should
believe him.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Right.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
If Michelle says, listen, I don't know if I can
be fearing Impaulshu on this sexual abuse case, right.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
I'll tell you right now, if it's a kid involved,
I'm going with you know what I mean, right, I
don't care who it is. Like you said, you.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Know, I can tell you Caselow off the top of
my head. People versus Nathaniel Grady, who was exonerated after
being having forty seven and a half to life for
several child rapes that they found he was innocent. So
even that happens, right, And I know countless I know
countless men that I mean. I just went to a
(37:32):
documentary screening for Jeffrey Dskovich, who had rape and murder
up in your community. Yep, right, I just went to
his documentary screening a week ago, sixteen years old, completely
innocent for rape and murder. But he had fifteen to
life and did sixteen years and didn't have an easy
time inside.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
I want to just end it here as part one,
and I want to say thank you for joining us.
We're going to come back next week with part two,
so make sure you tune in. Its Chevrone, It's red
and I am here with Bruce Brian very excited to
talk about this story and shed light on this topic
because people need to know after twenty nine years, that
you did not commit this crime and that there's so
many others fighting for their life who are in incarceration
(38:14):
as well. So thank you
Welcome to rid. Reddit's Michelle Burne your host, and Ashley
Macpherson your co host. Ash I have to tell you
today this is a topic that I need to shed
light on. It's something Kim Kardashian talks about. It's something
a lot of celebrities are behind. There's been many pardons
right with the government and the president in history because
(00:21):
people are wrongfully convicted in jail, and there's many of them.
And today we're here with someone who's very special to me,
who I met an event in New York City and
he has really changed my life and opened my eyes
to incarceration and how many people are wrongly convicted. So please,
i'd like to welcome Bruce Bryan. How are you.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I'm great honored to be here for you all and
just sit and have this you know, long overdue company.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Long overdue comment. We've been trying to book this for
a while. You were recently featured on Joe Rogan. Yes,
you had one of the highest performing episodes that he
ever had because it was just so moving and iconic.
We decided to make this two episodes and really spotlight
you to the best of our ability. Because you've spent
twenty nine years in prison for something you did not do.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Absolutely, hey, guys, before today's episode, I want to talk
to you about something that Ashley and I care a
lot about.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Mental health.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
That's right, taking care of your mental health is just
as important as taking care of your physical health, and
Mental Health America of Duchess County is the perfect place
for that health.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Absolutely, Mental Health America of Dutchess County is super empowering
and helps so many people with so many problems.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Honestly, it's pretty amazing seeing how mental health actually affects people.
Speaker 5 (01:45):
I mean the guests that we've had on the show,
We've talked about mental health in almost every episode, and
it's a serious topic.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Now's the time to prioritize your mental well being. If
you're suffering from anxiety, depression, or anything mental health related,
visit Mental Health America Duchess County at MHA Duchess dot org.
So let's start from the beginning. How did this all happen?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
I think wrong place, wrong time, wrong affiliations with people
in a open drug market space, and just being at
the wrong place at the wrong time. And I think
back then in the early nineties, it was more ubiquitous
than that it actually is now, right, because you had
(02:30):
certain narcotics teams like they call TNT that were do
entire sweeps in particular neighborhoods that were impacted by you know,
crack cocaine. Of course, back then you were sentenced one
hundred times more than someone caught with regular cocaine, which
is the same thing, and that was because of the
(02:53):
Rockefeller drug blow. There is no difference. One is in
a pure reform because it's cooked with bacon soda, and
the other one is just cocaine, which which we all
know comes from a plant, the cocoa leaf, right, co
one cooked ones not right, But one is associated with
poor black and brown communities because it's a cheaper high,
(03:14):
like you for a five dollars crack, right, And it's
highly addictive, much more addictive than probably powdered cocaine.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
So the cooked cocaine, the crack cocaine, is more addictive.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
I think it's a bit more addictive.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Can you make more with less? Is that why it's cheaper?
Speaker 2 (03:31):
I don't think you can necessarily make more with less.
I just think that the level of addiction is higher,
is higher, So it's associated with the demand particular demographic, yes, and.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Demand demographic, and the demands higher.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
In suburban areas. They may have called it freebasing. God right,
because when celebrities like which Is Prior and others were
utilizing cocaine in that manner, it was called freebasing. When
it got into the inner cities that we came crack cocaine,
got it the same course, it's the same thing, but
of course sometimes people mix different chemicals in it, but
(04:06):
it's essentially the root of it is cocaine.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Where did you grow up?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I grew up in Manhattan Lower East Side, and then
my family moved to Queens when I was about nine
years old.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Were you running with the bad guys at the time?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
At the I think early on for me abud eighty
three eighty four is around the time that the crack
ever hit New York City, and that was the same
time that I was coming of age.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Gotcha, So you're teenager.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Teenager, fourteen, fifteen years old, impressionable. You know, you see
people in the inner city, you know, you see what
glitters and you feel like, you know, you gain an
attraction to that, you know what I mean. Start, Yeah,
then you start exploring right, what does it mean to
sell low weed? At this time? Of course we was illegal,
(04:59):
and you start making what you see to be a
fast dollar, even though you have parents in the household
who worked hard their entire lives and never smoked a
cigarette and never were involved in anything like that. You know,
Caribbean parents from Antigua and Dominica. So it was a
lot different, you know, moving from Manhattan to Queens and
then coming of age at that particular era for me,
(05:22):
very impressionable. Looking at the outside influences right and how
doing bad can result in you appearing to look good
or do good. Right gives you more money, gives you
more money, but not just money, I think also status,
prestige and just in the inner city. So I think
(05:43):
a lot of us fell victim to that.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
You. Oh, you're so young, and those are your role models, those.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Are your role models outside of your home. It's like
even today, many people would say social media has a
greater influence on young people with than their actual parents.
Do it true, or then their teachers do, right, because
they probably spend more time on social media.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
They always say, they always say that your community shapes
your children more than your household does it and because
they you know, with your parents, you're like, ah, whatever,
what do you know? That's the attitude, right, It's like,
now you look back, you're like, man, my parents are
so good from the Caribbean, came here for a better life.
We moved to New York, the greatest city in the world,
and now this happens to your son, right because they
(06:31):
don't really know exactly what's here, but they did the
best they could, right.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
Yeah, absolutely, especially growing up like in the neighborhood, it's like, oh,
you hear your parents saying one thing, but it's like
all the kids are hanging out with their doing another thing.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (06:43):
Obviously it's kind of inevitable that you're going to fall
into the same you know.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Absolutely, so why you may have holes in your sneakers.
You see other guys with new sneakers and then you say.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Well I want that, I want Jordans tims.
Speaker 5 (06:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
And then of course we live in a society that's
you know, generated by capitalism and materialism. Right.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
So it's so funny you say that because everybody, you know,
I help a lot of businesses, and I've been doing
marketing a long time, and I hear, well, how come
you know we're always in it to make money, because
sometimes people always say, well, I'm in it for humanitarian
if we live in a capitalist society, right, So, whether
it's being involved in gangs, being involved in drugs, being
(07:23):
involved in business, we are here in America and trained
to make money. So the drive is always money power respect, Right,
that's the mindset that we're all here for whatever way
you gain that, it's different per neighborhood. And you fell
victim to that.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, so I think the ambition was there, but the
route to achieving correct what is that you wanted was
the wrong way about, you know, going about things. But
you know, it's funny you say the whole capitalism thing
and what society is motivated and generated by. As an
adult throughout the cost of my incarceration, one of the
(07:59):
things that I've learned is that the happiest people aren't
necessarily to people who have the most stuff, because I
think at a certain point it just becomes stuff, right,
Like you know, like the cars in the houses, it
becomes stuff, right. I mean you can get but so
many burken and Kelly bags, right, it becomes stuff, And
but so many diamonds before they become stuff.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Whatever.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
It may have some value, you know, monetary value, but
they're simply stuff. And I think that the happiest people
in the world other people who have found the cause
that is greater than themselves and have committed to it. Yep,
you know, those are the people that I've learned have
found a sense of internal happiness. They're not chasing happiness.
(08:42):
Happiness is not something that they pursue, but it ensues
from within.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Oh what caused you to determine that? That is a
powerful statement?
Speaker 2 (08:51):
I think you know, deep reflection, you know, sitting in
the cell twenty hours a day, sometimes twenty three hours
a day and reflecting and thinking and reading, you know,
and doing a specific type of reading, right, like not
just novels or books, but a specific type of reading
(09:12):
that that was gravitated to for some reason. Wow. You
know autobiographies, if not autobiographies, self development books, all books
that are based in facts and the history.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Wow, that's amazing. So bringing it back to the story,
so you fell victim to this. What happened on the
night that you that they claimed that.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
You It wasn't even the night, It was actually a day. Okay,
it was actually a dreary day, light mists coming down,
light rain coming down. And in the neighborhood that this
actually happened, that where the tragic death of Travis Lee
happened is called South Jamaica. It's an open drug market.
(09:58):
And without getting into deep specifics, a shootout happened between
you know, two men.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
How old were you at the time.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
I was twenty two born on twenty three.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Yeah, so a shootout happened.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
You were there, A shootout happened. I was there, and
this step son of one of the guys that were
shooting at another guy unfortunately was struck by a straight
bullet and lost his life.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Yea. And they blame that on you.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
And they blamed that on me and two other people,
one that wasn't even present, and also myself and the
actual person that admitted openly admitted that he was it
was an incident between him and this other guy.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
So did you have a weapon on you?
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Absolutely not?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Wow? And so how did they come up and determine
that you committed this crime?
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Well, I had a rogue prosecutor by the name of
John Scarper and who was later on convicted as a
defense attorney for you know, bribery and tainted evidence. But
he has a history of doing that and like that.
Here has several homicide cases that he was involved in
(11:14):
fabricating evidence on and then his evidence, his evidence was
substance abuse users saying, well, he was one of the guys,
you know, and then they get a deal for something
that they may have been arrested for.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Pardon of some sort.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah, but I think I think more than anything, when
someone loses a loved one, they just want revenge. Yes, right,
So whoever gets arrested, they don't know if a person
did it or not. They just or lock them up,
and you know.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
In this moment, So what was the process? Like you
you committed you were there the night of the when
the crime was committed. What happened following that? That night?
The next time?
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Following that, I took off and I actually went to
eat later on that night. Because no one actually knew
or was aware that someone had been shot. It wasn't
until the news later on did someone realized, oh wow,
the kid got shot.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
How old was he?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
He was about twelve years old, Travis Lily. I like
to say his name because I like the honor that life,
that that tragic life that was lost. I think it's
important that he was with his stepfather at the time.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Oh my gosh, and the stepfather lived.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (12:41):
Wow, So it was the stepfather in a shootout with
someone else and then the sun god ahead.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
That's how it happened, Okay, And so the stepfather went
to jail too. No, never, so he was set free,
bringing a minor to this crazy.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
He was never charged. He's never chide. And you know,
if if two people actually engage in the shooting and
a cop is killed, no matter who's bullet killed it,
both people are charged with them.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
That's why I don't know why the stepfathers.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah. I mean I've had countless guys that I was
incarcerated with that had very very similar incidents where they
were in the shooting and maybe a principal or somebody
was shot, and both parties went to jail despite who's
bullet because for them it's or you were engaged in
a shooting and right, you know, or even if you
do a robbery and a cop shoots another cop and
(13:40):
kills them, you're responsible for that homicide despite the fact
that you didn't do any shooting. You're normally charged because
had it not been for the robbery, they're saying, this
friendly fire would not have happened. It's a bit, you know,
it's a bit convoluted in terms of, you know, the
law and things like that.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
But so the young young fella got got killed, unfortunately,
and after that you went out to eat, right, you
went to eat.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah, we went to eat. We left. I left the
scene and I.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Went, do you remember him getting shot?
Speaker 2 (14:19):
No, no one ever knew, anyone.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Like you said, So you just left, went to eat,
like no one got hit. We're good.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
And then a shooter. A shooting happens in any neighborhood.
You normally find out when bullets are flying, you're running,
you're hiding. No one is standing there to see who
gets shot, where the bullets are flowing, where they're coming from,
where you're shooting at. I mean, for the most part,
in the city, guys, they don't go to the range
(14:48):
and learn how to shoot. It's they're in the street,
you know, there's they're in survival moment, right, they have
a mindset of survival or I'm just out here trying
to survive. And when you come from the inner cities,
when you come from marginalized communities. That's the predominant mindset survive.
(15:09):
It doesn't until it isn't until you get into until
you change the way you look at life, right that
you beginning to say, well, I don't want to survive.
I want to thrive like everyone else, and I deserve
to thrive. But when you live in these particular pockets
of society, survival is essentially what you're knowing. That's I mean,
(15:30):
that's the South Bronx, that's South Jamaica, Queens, that's you know, Brownsville,
East New York, bedsterar of Brooklyn. That's that's ubiquitous in
any impoverished, marginalized black and brown ghetto in America. While
you're always in the mindset is I'm surviving because you
(15:51):
living day to day and you're trying to survive as
best as you know.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
And you know it's terrible because we live in Poughkeepsie,
which is about an hour and a half north, and
there's a lot of black and brown folks up there,
and there's a clear divide between the city of Poughkeepsie
and the town of Poughkeepsie, and the same with Newburg.
Newburgh's like one of the worst places to live in
New York State. It's got the inner city and then
the town and the town that surround Newburgh are gorgeous, beautiful, unbelievable.
(16:20):
If half, if a quarter, or a tenth of that
money poured into the city, there would be no problems. Right.
But the gang violence, the drugs, the substance abuse, the
rapes that are committed, right, all these crimes, the killings,
all of them, you know a lot of them come
from there, and it's and it's terrible because there's so
many people right there that could help.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
But yes, which I'm glad you brought that up, because
what you're saying essentially is that crime isn't necessarily about people, right.
Crime is more so about a social condition that produces crime.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Right. So most people would say, oh, we're advocating for
public safety, so we don't want to let this person
out of jail or we don't want this to happen
in our community. Well what is public safety? Right? I
think when you look at poverty as a crime generitive factor,
you understand that, you know, no one is born a criminal,
(17:15):
No one is born with what society would deemed to
be deviant behavior unless they have a mental illness, of course,
which is closely associated with like sex crimes and stuff
like that, this person is really suffering from some mental illness.
Crime is a social condition that's produced by poverty. And
if you understand poverty, you understand that poverty is violence
(17:37):
in and of itself. Right, when you don't know where
your next outfit is coming from, or your next meal
is coming from, or where your other necessity is coming from,
your shelter, food, shelter, and crola. That's violence, right, Whether
it's psychological violence, emotional violence, it's a sense of violence, right.
And one of the things I've come to learn is
that public safety itself, it's less about the absence of crime.
(18:07):
It's more about the presence of opportunity. So where the
presence of opportunity exists, the crime decreases exponentially. Absolutely, you
don't see crime in Scarsdale, right, Like somebody might burglarize
a home, but it's very rare that you see crime
in the scars And you talked about the town and
the city of Newburgh. Right, one may be crime written
(18:29):
and the other may You may not say crime. It's
because it's not the people, it's the social conditions that
they live in. Right, But society, mainstream society, would have
you believe it's them over there, particularly black and brown people, right,
because we have a level of systemic racism that exists
within the criminal legal system. And Newburgh used to be
(18:53):
excluded from the Seven Basic Neighborhoods, Right. The seven Basic
Neighborhoods were seven neighborhoods in New York's City that made
up the vast majority of New York State prison population.
So like almost seventy percent of the people in New
York State prison thirty years ago came from seven basic
neighborhoods in New York City, the five boroughs that has
(19:16):
since changed, and now Newburgh, po Keepsie in Rochester and
places like that have become you know, the case is
that are included in those basic neighborhoods that you know,
produce incarceration and produce fine I've been in prisons where,
like Great Metals, you walk in there and it's you're like, damn,
(19:39):
I ain't see nobody I know from Brooklyn or Queens
from around the way. Everybody in there's from Albanyah, And
you're like, Damn, I didn't know albany had a community
like that. When I got the comstock, it took me
a week to find somebody that I know. Prior to that,
any prison I walk into, before I get to a
south they already got word, your fashion is here. Man,
make sure he's good. He needs to that he just
(20:00):
got to because that was my nickname fashion, Right, So
they say fashion is here? What you get the great metals?
And you say fashion is here. It's like Albany and
Poughkeepsie are there and they're like, you'll know him, and
it's a bunch of young guys that I don't know.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
It said, you know, we did an event in Poughkeepsie
called First Friday Poughkeepsie. We got four thousand people there.
It was I was the senior vice president of marketing
for a bank and I did their marketing. You know,
I ran the department and myself, my husband's company, and
my best friend's company got together and the president of
the bank to really change the landscape because we wanted
(20:36):
to integrate the city and the town. That was the
whole goal. And I thought, you know, we heard that
this was happening with the new leadership. And they got
like two hundred people to come but it was all
predominantly white business people. And my boss at the bank said,
I want to get the cultures together. And I looked
at him and I said, I know everybody in the
city of Poughkeepsie because I sang for a long time.
(20:58):
So I used to record in the projects. I was
this little white chick in my BMW. You know. I
didn't come from anything, but I worked hard and I
was bartending and I came my BMW to the projects.
Everyone's smoking weed and whatever else. And I get up
and it's heat controlled, so I'm dying a sweat in
that place. Starting I'm like, man, I feel bad for
(21:19):
these people, but they all became my really good friends.
I was like, I got you. I can do this.
I know everybody in the streets. I do, and I
you know, I was never one that like hung out
or did anything bad. I went there to record music.
They respected me, I paid them and I went home.
I never did drugs, and I never fell into any
of that. I was never into it. But I knew
that these people could sing R and B like no
(21:40):
other and they were going to teach me right. And
so I went there and I did my thing, and
we did this event called First Friday ten years later,
four thousand people came. We did it in an inner
city area that white people typically don't go to, and
it was the best event we've ever had. The city's
ever seen COVID hit. So we had to stop the
(22:01):
events and we didn't bring them back. But the Chamber
of Commerce, the leadership, the banks, the local we had
eighty vendors come. That moment was the only time that
we've ever integrated where my guy Slim from down the
road was with the president of a bank. And that
needs to happen. It needs to happen. It's the only
(22:23):
way to make change work. And Slim is a great guy.
He just has no opportunity because he doesn't know the
guy that you know. And you're one hundred percent right,
it's lack of opportunity. And I tell this day actually
all the time, because I've been around and I've seen
a lot, and I do feel like Poughkeepsie's become so impoverished,
and there's been times where it's on the upswing. But
(22:44):
and I've been a part of that movement, but there's
only so much one person or a team of people
can do. And sometimes the bad infiltrates the good right,
So I just feel like there is a lack of
opportunity and I'm tired of it and I'm ready to
do something else because I can't create the opportun tunity
there anymore. And it's sad because I don't want to
give up on my hometown. I grew up there. I
(23:05):
love it, But at the same time, it's like, when
is enough enough? And when am I going to get
my shot? Because I want opportunity.
Speaker 6 (23:12):
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Speaker 4 (24:03):
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Speaker 1 (24:40):
So I feel like there's totally a system systemic issue here.
I don't know how to fix it, but if you
ever come up with a way, and you want my help,
I'm here.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
I think just being vocal about it, you know, as
you are now, it makes it different. I think Jesse
using your voice sometimes is just talking about something.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
You know, you know the firefighters in the LA fires
that were incarcerated or overlooked until you know Kim and
Scott Budennick from ARC begin to highlight and say, well,
you know you got incarcerated people fighting these fires for
whatever it was, you know, five dollars a day slave
wages hopefully to get some time cut off their sentence.
(25:19):
Because I do believe they get that as well, which
is a good incentive, you know. And I know for
a long time they weren't able to become firefighters. Now
I think that has since.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Changed, right because of the voices.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Yes, but you know, when you use your voice to
magnify an issue, as she has, it makes a difference.
It matters.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
And that's what we were talking about before. You know,
Kim has done so much with wrongfully accused? Do you
call it a criminal? If you're wrongfully accused? What is
the right term?
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Wrongfully convicted? But we don't call them criminals? Could be
believer as a stigma so we stay formally incarcerated people
or incarcerated people because we don't like their circumstances to
define who they are.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Agreed, So I want to get back to your story.
So that night you went out to eat. The next day,
what happens when did the chips not aligned with your.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Chips not aligned that day? Because in my paranoia, I
felt after I heard that they came to my house,
and later on that evening I said, well, I'm not
going I'm not going to the precinct to talk to anyone.
I disappeared. And then yeah, I disappeared.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Because so that made you look guilty.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
I think in some sense, your flight makes you appear
to be guilty. And where did you go? I was
all over the place. I got arrested in Syracuse, New York,
because like I liked for state New York a little bit,
you know, I like to quiet the comment, I like
the nature. So when I got arrested in Syracuse, they
brought me back to New York.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
How far How long was that?
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Six months? Maybe six months later? But I never felt
throughout the call some of my incarceration that I was
going to be in prison, even before I went to trial,
I never felt that I was gonna be convicted because
I was always told by my co defend y'all, go
home and make sure that you know I've already spoken
(27:15):
until my lawyer and everything. So in my mind, I said,
all right, they're gonna it's gonna get It's gonna eventually
get cleared up.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Was he feeding you alone?
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I mean, it took twenty nine years, but he you know,
he eventually came and spoke to it. But I was
sentenced to thirty seven and a half the life right,
So in all honesty, had it not been for our
governor now and the people like Steve Zeidman and Josh
(27:44):
Dubin and Derek Hamilton and the Sean Carter Foundation, the
mother of jay Z, Gloria Yep, Gloria Carter and all
and the students that were behind it, and with Steve
Zeidman at the forefront, who is the best cleancy lawyer
in the country, I probably would still be in prison
(28:04):
waiting to be exonerated. And I mean, and this is
New York State. There is number three in the country.
I believe Illinois is number one with wrongful convictions. Where
do you say I think Illinois is number one. I'm
not sure what number two is, but I know that
New York State is number three, and I would I would,
(28:27):
I would see. I kind of see why Illinois because
you just said Chicago, and with the level of violence
and gangs, it's like you can anyone can get swept
up into that because I mean, let's face it, it's
like a bunch of young black and brown kids and
Hispanic kids in these pocket neighborhoods you know that are
gang affiliated, and shootings happen, and when violence happens, they
(28:49):
don't they really don't care who they arrest. The system
doesn't care who they arrest. Oftentimes it's a combination of
two things. One, it's swift action. I think that plays
a major role in you know, false arrests and wrongful convictions.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
I think that it's taking action for something that was done.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Yes, I think that. I think that when there was
a particular type of case that happens, I think there's
a rush to try and solve it. I don't think
it's always race. I think race plays a part, but
I think expediency also plays a part.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Yeah, because the people who are still around want justice,
like you said.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Yeah, and not only that the system is like, well,
we have to solve this or we mean, so it
doesn't matter who you arrest, which is something I totally
disagree with. Right, if you want to solve a case,
then you solve it the right way, right, locking up
five young black kids in the Central Park five and
sending them away, and you know, these guys caught hell
(29:58):
inside of jails and then finding out later on that
a Hispanic guy that was a serial rapist that you
knew about all along, but you never went to arrest them,
and then he confessed and then you test and say,
oh it's his DNA. I mean that's I think that's yeah,
(30:18):
that's a I think that's a combination of race, racism,
and better than into the system. But I also think
it's you know, expedient. We got to solve the case, right,
with some level of expediency. We want to solve with
this high profile, we got the media attention, you know,
prosecutor is, let's just solve the case. And then, of
(30:39):
course prosecutors are incentivized for forgetting the cases. I mean,
if you're incentivized, you should also be penalized when you
intentionally do things wrong, correct, But they have qualified immunity,
and that's a problem.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
That is a problem, major problem, because if they were
were held accountable, they would think way more, they would
think way more about it and make a totally different
decision and find real evidence.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
I'm former Queens Prosecutor John scotp on the Ada. There's
no doubt in my mind if he had a thought
when I could go to jail for this, there's no
way certain actions that he took, he would have taken.
It's just that symbol.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
You know.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
So you fled, you said, and I stopped you because
I got We got off on a tangent, which I loved,
but we talked about Syracuse. So they rested you in Syracuse.
You got brought to a lineup. What happened?
Speaker 2 (31:34):
I got arrested and charged, And it's like that. It
was just like that.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Who was looking at you to see that you.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Were you don't You never really know who it is
until after the case. So initially it's who is this
that picked me out of a linea right? And to
be quite honest with you, to this day, I don't
know who it was that picked me out.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Because did you think about that? For twenty nine years?
Speaker 2 (31:56):
I thought about it initially, but I kind of felt like,
as I said, when you really I think after a while,
when you sit back and you think about crime, I
think I think anyone who lost a child or lost
a parent would say, oh, are you arrested somebody? That's it? Yep,
(32:16):
without giving any thought as to you know, the dynamics
of it, right, the ramifications of it or someone else's life.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Right. But because they probably think you did do it,
because the evidence, and they feel justice.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
No, I think they know they knew. I think there's
no doubt in my mind they have to knowing.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Are they still alive?
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Yeah, some of them all are?
Speaker 5 (32:39):
They know.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
There's no doubt my mind that you know, like if
you were a president, there's no there's no mistaken there's
absolutely no mistaken. Zero. I mean, ballistics evidence shows one gun,
one person, not you know, so there's not even a question.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
I just can't believe you didn't even have have a
weapon on you. How could they commit that crime? How
could they say you committed a crime when there's no
physical evidence of a weapon from you that day break.
Speaker 5 (33:09):
All the evidence was you being there and then you
line up and being.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Slapped, and that happens all the time.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Who did it?
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Well, they know they know who is with me.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
He's convicted with you. And what did he say to you.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
He had a separate trial. Well he actually years later
actually told them listen, he didn't have anything to do
with that.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
So how how many years down the line was that?
Speaker 2 (33:30):
That was years down the line that he written he
has written to a particular lawyer and tell her. But
the court system it's quick, like they say, it's quick
and easy to get locked up and charge the appellate process,
it's much more difficult in being free or gaining That
explained that once you're convicted for a crime, and please
(33:53):
understand twelve jurords that are supposed to be jerwords of
your peers back then in Queens, you for the most part,
you're going to get. You know, maybe Forst. Hills, Queens,
you're going to get predominantly twelve older white women that
crime shooting, like, oh, just scared that guy, I'm scared,
you know. So people usually make judgment calls based on
(34:15):
their own fears, and the media plays into the fearmongering
and just instilling fear into the community. Oh well, my
constituents want public safety but no one ever defines what
public safety is right, So for twelve people who I
have no clue about the law, which is something I
feel I'm very passionate about juris being educated, like everyday
(34:36):
people being educated about the jury process.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
It's interesting because I get a card to become a juror,
we have to go, we have to sit there. I
have no idea what I'm going for. I have no
education in this. I know nothing about the law, but
I'm here to determine whether someone gets locked up if
they committed a crime not I don't I've never been
in a courtroom other than first speeding ticket, So what
(35:01):
the heck do I know about something like that?
Speaker 2 (35:04):
That's true, and I really I've recently been in discussions
with people about what it means to educate jurors and
how do we educate jurors on the dynamics of the law, right,
the ins and out of what it means to be
on durid duty.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Yeah, and you can't just be a citizen that can
make a decision like that. How do they know you
don't have a mental health issue? How do they know
you're not struggling with something? How do you know you're
not a person who's being abused. I mean, you just
you're picking random people to come up.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
I mean this morning, I sat in the courtroom for
a colleague of mine who is starting at a trial,
and they start in the jury selection. So you know,
we came in to show her support because she's a
young attorney. And the jury selection when you meet the jurors.
(35:56):
First of all, I don't think it was one jurorid
that hadn't been a victim of a car right, And
one Hispanic guy was saying that, you know, I don't
think I cannot be biased. I don't really know the language,
I don't really know the law. And the judge says, well,
I'm not asking you to I'm going to interpret the law.
(36:18):
I just want you to interpret the facts. I'm going
to interpret the law for you. And so he says, well,
how am I going to you asked me to be
impartion to make my assessment when you're making it fun
me on the law. And so it was like a
back and forth and he was essentially I don't know
if he was actually picked because I left, but in
that moment he was actually required to. Oh, I just
(36:41):
kind of like forced him to say, I'll see what
I can do, but he was alaimant initially about I
don't think I can be fair, right, And if a
person tells you they can't be fair, then you should
believe them, right, like you know, full stop, you should
believe him.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Right.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
If Michelle says, listen, I don't know if I can
be fearing Impaulshu on this sexual abuse case, right.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
I'll tell you right now, if it's a kid involved,
I'm going with you know what I mean, right, I
don't care who it is. Like you said, you.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Know, I can tell you Caselow off the top of
my head. People versus Nathaniel Grady, who was exonerated after
being having forty seven and a half to life for
several child rapes that they found he was innocent. So
even that happens, right, And I know countless I know
countless men that I mean. I just went to a
(37:32):
documentary screening for Jeffrey Dskovich, who had rape and murder
up in your community. Yep, right, I just went to
his documentary screening a week ago, sixteen years old, completely
innocent for rape and murder. But he had fifteen to
life and did sixteen years and didn't have an easy
time inside.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
I want to just end it here as part one,
and I want to say thank you for joining us.
We're going to come back next week with part two,
so make sure you tune in. Its Chevrone, It's red
and I am here with Bruce Brian very excited to
talk about this story and shed light on this topic
because people need to know after twenty nine years, that
you did not commit this crime and that there's so
many others fighting for their life who are in incarceration
(38:14):
as well. So thank you
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