Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Live across the Great Lake State. You're connected to Michigan's
most engaging and influential radio and television program, Michigan's Big
Show starring Michael Patrick Shields, presented by Blue Cross, Blue
Shield of Michigan and Blue Care Network. I'm producer and
creative director Tony Cuthberts. Now in the shadow of the
Capitol Dome and Lansing. He's heard from the beaches of
(00:28):
Lake Michigan, to the halls of power and behind closed doors.
Here's Michigan's Michael Patrick.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Shields Andrew Jury. Isn't it the one they did the
song about Edmund Fitzgerald. I love Edmond Fitzgerald's voice.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Now, Gordon Lightfoot was the singer. Edmund Fitzgerald was the ship.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I think Gorton Lightfoot was the boat.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Yeah, and it was rammed by the cat Stephens.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Michael Patrick Shields is on the air Good.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Morning World every November. You're in the J. P. McCarthy tradition.
We spend a day talking about what Gordon Lightfoot wrote
and sang about the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald as
sometimes people say, you still talking about that? That was
in the seventies. John Hugh Bacon has authored fourteen books
on sports, business and history. They're all critically acclaimed, and
(01:21):
he has turned his pen to the Gales of November.
That's the name of his book, The Untold Story of
the Edmund Fitzgerald, and it is called graceful poignant. It
has been compared to Sebastian Junger's Perfect Storm. Ken Burns,
the filmmaker, says it's another riveting narrative that puts facts
(01:42):
on a still mesmerizing legend. He says John Bacon has
distilled the essence of the story and rendered a huge
monument to those losts. Doug Stanton, who we know from
Traverse City, said the book is an epic achievement. And
Kirkis the Review Company says he writes in Arresting Pros, John,
(02:03):
you Bacon, what is arresting pros?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
You'd had, asked Kirker's Reviews. I guess, but I can
say we are number six in the New York Times
bestseller List, debuting there and hopefully sticking around. Thank you
very much.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
I'm told that you spent a lot of time on
the inland seas of Michigan researching on the Arthur Anderson
the vote that ostensibly could have saved anybody if it
could have gotten there just a little sooner. Is that
what happened?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Yeah? I was on the Arthur Anderson last summer and
the Wilfrid Sykes last summer as well as this fall.
And if you get a chance to get one of
these ships, file me to do it. That's an experience
like no other. But basically, excuse me. The Anderson was
chasing the Amphice Gerald that night on Monday, November tenth.
They'd about an hour behind. At one point, if it's
(02:52):
Gerald's long and short radar boat get knocked out, the
lighthouse at Whitefish Point that you're trying to get to
pat Lee went out. The rad beacon, which tells you
where you are from that lighthouse, also went out, so
the Fitzgeral was sailing blind. So they waited an hour
for the Anderson to catch up, but in that hour
the ship was lost. So Anderson. Honestly, a ship like that,
(03:15):
when it goes down, you hope to find maybe a
couple of guys in a raft, but the eyes aren't
very good.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
I wonder why the Anderson didn't meet the same fate.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
A few reasons. One is it was built differently, so
the flexibility the ship was different. Two, it may be
when we talked about this in the book, that mccorty
might have gone over six fathoms shoal. That's a little
patch in the northeast corner of Lake Superior near Caribo Island,
(03:46):
this little one by three mile spit of land. The lake.
As you know, it's otherwise thirteen hundred feet deep, but
not there. So if it went over that shoal, then
it might have bottomed out. So those are the two
main reasons right there.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
The Gales of November is the book The Untold Story
of the Edmund Fitzgerald. What is the untold part?
Speaker 2 (04:08):
About ninety five percent of it? To be honest, I
did not know four years ago when I started. I
asked my wife, My other books take me about a
year or two years. This one took me four. And
I asked my wife, why's it taking me so long?
She goes, that's easy. He didn't know anything. I thought
I did. I've sailed port here on the Mack and
I I've been in all the lakes. I grew up
on Lake Michigan. And you think you know these things,
(04:30):
and you really don't. I didn't know, for example, that
the Atlantic for shippers is not as dangerous as the
Gray Lakes, and the guys who sailed in bows say
it's not even close, for example. But the real untold
part is I managed to track down six former crew
members on the end of his Gerald. Of course, all
twenty nine that night went down with the ship, but
these six had served on the ship months and a
(04:52):
few years beforehand, so I was very lucky to find them.
I found Rick Bartholey, the last survivor of the Arthur
Anderson from that night, who could tell us as close
as we can get what it was like on that
night on the lakes that night for the Fitzgerald. And
then I got to half half of the twenty nine
families who spoke to a reporter for the first time.
(05:13):
So that's a lot of untold right there.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Wow, everybody thinks when you write a book, you sit
in northern Michigan in your house and you look out
the window and you type away. Look at that kind
of research and effort and reporting that you had to
do in order to write this tome. The man who
was on the Arthur Anderson did, did he say that
he was scared?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I asked him that exact question, Patrick, Michael Patrick, that is,
and he paused, and he said, concerned. These guys are
hard to get to. And it's kind of like the pilots,
I mean, very much like the pilots on our planes
when you're going, you know, bouncing, but down one hundred
feet and the pilot's signed with that languid voice and says, hello,
(05:59):
ladies and gentlemen, there's a pilot here and we're experiencing
a little turbulence. Well, okay, and that's what these guys
are like. But he did say that more concerned than
he ever had been before. And it was the worst
storm in his forty years in the seas that he
ever saw. It was the storm of the century, truly.
And to answer your earlier question with a bit more,
as one of my experts said, by being one hour
(06:19):
ahead of the Anderson, through dumb luck, the Fitzgerald ended
up going to the exact wrong place at the exact
wrong time, where the epicenter of the storm was one
hundred mile per hour winds and waves that were probably
forty to fifty and even sixty feet high. And this
thing's only eleven feet out of the water. So that's
what you're up against.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Well, in the song, Captain mc sorley says, fellas it's
too rough to feed you, and then he says, it's
been nice to know you. Do you think those sailors
on the Fitzgerald had any idea that they were going
to meet their demise?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Well, actually as the cook who says that in the song,
but it doesn't matter as far as the demid goes.
I've asked that question and clearly if you can only guess,
but the strong hunch is no, they did not. Because
mc story the best captain of the Great Lakes. He's
sixty three years old. He's about to retire after this
(07:14):
run in three days, and so are five of his lieutenants.
If he had ten seconds to get out an SOS,
he would have done so with his coordinates. He didn't
do so. The lifeboats were secure, the life rafts were secure.
We only know of one crewman who wore a life jacket.
All these tell us. At the end, when it came
was almost certainly very quick.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Have you ever been in a big storm on a boat?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Not like that man, and not even close. In fact,
I got an invitation of the site to come back
this fall because in November you will get a storm
and you will get some waves. But I was writing
a book with my lame alibi. But I should have
done it if I could so. But I'll tell you what.
If you're on the SS Badger going from a Muskegan
to Grand Rapp, Milwaukee, maybe it's the Badgers, maybe's the
(08:03):
other one. If at five feet or more waves, they
don't go out because land lovers like you and me
will lose it. We can't handle five footers. And these
are you know again, thirty forty fifty footers, so and
these guys almost never get sick. So it's a different
breed of person who takes these trips on a lake.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
On a lake, not even an ocean. It's a very
good point. Well, congratulations. I know that everybody thinks they
can write a book, very few can do it. And
if you're going to spend four years committed to it
and all the other duties that you have, and it's
just an accomplishment like any other. And we love the
time you spend with us. Thank you, and we'll see
(08:45):
you well November December. This would be a great Christmas book.
The Gales of November The Untold Story of the Edmund
Fitzgerald by a treasurer in Michigan, John You Bacon. Oh yeah,
Live across the Great Lake State. You're connected to Michigan's
most engaging and influential radio and television program, Michigan's Big
Show starring Michael Patrick Shields, presented by Blue Cross, Blue
Shield of Michigan and Blue Care Network. I'm producer and
creative director Tony Cuthberts. Now in the shadow of the
Capitol Dome and Lansing. He's heard from the beaches of
(00:28):
Lake Michigan, to the halls of power and behind closed doors.
Here's Michigan's Michael Patrick.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Shields Andrew Jury. Isn't it the one they did the
song about Edmund Fitzgerald. I love Edmond Fitzgerald's voice.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Now, Gordon Lightfoot was the singer. Edmund Fitzgerald was the ship.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I think Gorton Lightfoot was the boat.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Yeah, and it was rammed by the cat Stephens.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Michael Patrick Shields is on the air Good.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Morning World every November. You're in the J. P. McCarthy tradition.
We spend a day talking about what Gordon Lightfoot wrote
and sang about the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald as
sometimes people say, you still talking about that? That was
in the seventies. John Hugh Bacon has authored fourteen books
on sports, business and history. They're all critically acclaimed, and
(01:21):
he has turned his pen to the Gales of November.
That's the name of his book, The Untold Story of
the Edmund Fitzgerald, and it is called graceful poignant. It
has been compared to Sebastian Junger's Perfect Storm. Ken Burns,
the filmmaker, says it's another riveting narrative that puts facts
(01:42):
on a still mesmerizing legend. He says John Bacon has
distilled the essence of the story and rendered a huge
monument to those losts. Doug Stanton, who we know from
Traverse City, said the book is an epic achievement. And
Kirkis the Review Company says he writes in Arresting Pros, John,
(02:03):
you Bacon, what is arresting pros?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
You'd had, asked Kirker's Reviews. I guess, but I can
say we are number six in the New York Times
bestseller List, debuting there and hopefully sticking around. Thank you
very much.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
I'm told that you spent a lot of time on
the inland seas of Michigan researching on the Arthur Anderson
the vote that ostensibly could have saved anybody if it
could have gotten there just a little sooner. Is that
what happened?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Yeah? I was on the Arthur Anderson last summer and
the Wilfrid Sykes last summer as well as this fall.
And if you get a chance to get one of
these ships, file me to do it. That's an experience
like no other. But basically, excuse me. The Anderson was
chasing the Amphice Gerald that night on Monday, November tenth.
They'd about an hour behind. At one point, if it's
(02:52):
Gerald's long and short radar boat get knocked out, the
lighthouse at Whitefish Point that you're trying to get to
pat Lee went out. The rad beacon, which tells you
where you are from that lighthouse, also went out, so
the Fitzgeral was sailing blind. So they waited an hour
for the Anderson to catch up, but in that hour
the ship was lost. So Anderson. Honestly, a ship like that,
(03:15):
when it goes down, you hope to find maybe a
couple of guys in a raft, but the eyes aren't
very good.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
I wonder why the Anderson didn't meet the same fate.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
A few reasons. One is it was built differently, so
the flexibility the ship was different. Two, it may be
when we talked about this in the book, that mccorty
might have gone over six fathoms shoal. That's a little
patch in the northeast corner of Lake Superior near Caribo Island,
(03:46):
this little one by three mile spit of land. The lake.
As you know, it's otherwise thirteen hundred feet deep, but
not there. So if it went over that shoal, then
it might have bottomed out. So those are the two
main reasons right there.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
The Gales of November is the book The Untold Story
of the Edmund Fitzgerald. What is the untold part?
Speaker 2 (04:08):
About ninety five percent of it? To be honest, I
did not know four years ago when I started. I
asked my wife, My other books take me about a
year or two years. This one took me four. And
I asked my wife, why's it taking me so long?
She goes, that's easy. He didn't know anything. I thought
I did. I've sailed port here on the Mack and
I I've been in all the lakes. I grew up
on Lake Michigan. And you think you know these things,
(04:30):
and you really don't. I didn't know, for example, that
the Atlantic for shippers is not as dangerous as the
Gray Lakes, and the guys who sailed in bows say
it's not even close, for example. But the real untold
part is I managed to track down six former crew
members on the end of his Gerald. Of course, all
twenty nine that night went down with the ship, but
these six had served on the ship months and a
(04:52):
few years beforehand, so I was very lucky to find them.
I found Rick Bartholey, the last survivor of the Arthur
Anderson from that night, who could tell us as close
as we can get what it was like on that
night on the lakes that night for the Fitzgerald. And
then I got to half half of the twenty nine
families who spoke to a reporter for the first time.
(05:13):
So that's a lot of untold right there.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Wow, everybody thinks when you write a book, you sit
in northern Michigan in your house and you look out
the window and you type away. Look at that kind
of research and effort and reporting that you had to
do in order to write this tome. The man who
was on the Arthur Anderson did, did he say that
he was scared?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I asked him that exact question, Patrick, Michael Patrick, that is,
and he paused, and he said, concerned. These guys are
hard to get to. And it's kind of like the pilots,
I mean, very much like the pilots on our planes
when you're going, you know, bouncing, but down one hundred
feet and the pilot's signed with that languid voice and says, hello,
(05:59):
ladies and gentlemen, there's a pilot here and we're experiencing
a little turbulence. Well, okay, and that's what these guys
are like. But he did say that more concerned than
he ever had been before. And it was the worst
storm in his forty years in the seas that he
ever saw. It was the storm of the century, truly.
And to answer your earlier question with a bit more,
as one of my experts said, by being one hour
(06:19):
ahead of the Anderson, through dumb luck, the Fitzgerald ended
up going to the exact wrong place at the exact
wrong time, where the epicenter of the storm was one
hundred mile per hour winds and waves that were probably
forty to fifty and even sixty feet high. And this
thing's only eleven feet out of the water. So that's
what you're up against.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Well, in the song, Captain mc sorley says, fellas it's
too rough to feed you, and then he says, it's
been nice to know you. Do you think those sailors
on the Fitzgerald had any idea that they were going
to meet their demise?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Well, actually as the cook who says that in the song,
but it doesn't matter as far as the demid goes.
I've asked that question and clearly if you can only guess,
but the strong hunch is no, they did not. Because
mc story the best captain of the Great Lakes. He's
sixty three years old. He's about to retire after this
(07:14):
run in three days, and so are five of his lieutenants.
If he had ten seconds to get out an SOS,
he would have done so with his coordinates. He didn't
do so. The lifeboats were secure, the life rafts were secure.
We only know of one crewman who wore a life jacket.
All these tell us. At the end, when it came
was almost certainly very quick.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Have you ever been in a big storm on a boat?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Not like that man, and not even close. In fact,
I got an invitation of the site to come back
this fall because in November you will get a storm
and you will get some waves. But I was writing
a book with my lame alibi. But I should have
done it if I could so. But I'll tell you what.
If you're on the SS Badger going from a Muskegan
to Grand Rapp, Milwaukee, maybe it's the Badgers, maybe's the
(08:03):
other one. If at five feet or more waves, they
don't go out because land lovers like you and me
will lose it. We can't handle five footers. And these
are you know again, thirty forty fifty footers, so and
these guys almost never get sick. So it's a different
breed of person who takes these trips on a lake.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
On a lake, not even an ocean. It's a very
good point. Well, congratulations. I know that everybody thinks they
can write a book, very few can do it. And
if you're going to spend four years committed to it
and all the other duties that you have, and it's
just an accomplishment like any other. And we love the
time you spend with us. Thank you, and we'll see
(08:45):
you well November December. This would be a great Christmas book.
The Gales of November The Untold Story of the Edmund
Fitzgerald by a treasurer in Michigan, John You Bacon. Oh yeah,
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