Alex Zimmermann- The Need for Indie Record Labels

Sarah Harralson interviews indie record label owner, Alex Zimmermann, of Circle Back Entertainment Group. 

Follow Circle Back here: 
https://www.instagram.com/circlebackeg/?hl=en 

Follow his artist project here:
https://www.instagram.com/justmehugs/?hl=en

Learn more about SongFarm here:
https://www.songfarm.org/ 

Episode Transcript

(00:06):
Hi everyone, Thank you for tuninginto the second season of the mind Yer
Music Business Podcast. My name isSarah Harrelson and we have a great guest
on today. I actually know himfrom way back when because we both went
to the same high school and churchtogether in Oxville, Tennessee, and we
both attended Beaumont University too. Hestudied songwriting, I was in the music

(00:30):
business program. So we have AlexZimmerman with us today. He's worked in
the music industry at different record labelsas a catalog administrator, copyright coordinator.
He's the director of technology at songfarmdot Org, and he's also an entrepreneur
creating Circle Back Entertainment Group. Sowe have a lot to dig in today.

(00:54):
Alex, thanks for being on theshow with me. How are you
today? I am great, Thanksfor having me. Really excited to talk
about music. And yeah, it'sso wild that we're having this conversation,
like almost like we're circling back knowingeach other in our youth to now being
what almost thirty. Yeah, prettycrazy, small world it is. I

(01:19):
remember like in middle and high schoolwhen you had your band lay yeah,
oh yeah, hey, you knowthat those were formative, formative times and
it's so goofy. I mean,it's it's for everyone that's listening that doesn't
know what it is. It wasbasically like this national Battle of the Bands

(01:41):
for high school students that NAM puton the National Association of Music Merchants,
and we ended up winning my senioryear and we got to go play the
final showdown in downtown Disney and Anaheim, and then they sent us to Germany
and played in like an arena inFrankfurt, and it was just this this
totally crazy but like totally not likeany indication of what it's actually like to

(02:07):
be in the music industry type ofexperience, because it was just all amazing,
you know, all positive. Ididn't to play in Germany with him,
that's awesome. Yeah, yeah,it was nuts. It truly,
it truly was like this amazing thingthat like I think I was like seventeen,
and like, you know, wedid it twice, so we did
like my junior year and senior year, and so I think that first time

(02:29):
I was like sixteen, and yeah, I mean it was like, you
know, it was for me becauseit was all original music that you had
to submit as a band, andfor me, it was just like,
oh wow, I wrote a handfulof songs that took us to California twice
and took us to Germany. Imust be pretty good at this. This
is gonna be, this is gonnabe what I do, you know,
And then you get out here andyou get steamrolled for like five years at

(02:52):
a time, and you know,but I do. I do reflect on
those times positively. There's always drunkennights in college were one of my roommates
would go throw one of those videosof us playing, you know, back
in high school on the TV,and it would always just be this hilarious
thing. But yeah, er gowe play. Don't look it up.

(03:13):
But so is that your goal atthe time, you guys were winning these
competitions, So were wanting to stayin the band and tour or were you
Did you have your sight set onworking on the business side of the industry.
Not at all. No, Ihad no desire to be on the
business side of the industry at all. It was all I want to play
in a band. And so likeonce the we graduated, it was like

(03:35):
everybody went their separate ways. Andso I came out to Murphy's Brow and
I didn't like touch a guitar forlike almost a year, like went from
that to like nothing essentially, likewithin a handful of months. So I
was very confused. But it waslike I got to find a way to
do that again, and so Iplayed. And I've played in so many

(03:57):
bands and for so many for anart since then. But yeah, I
had no desire at all to doanything business related. It was just like,
I want to play music because it'seasy. We did it, we
won the competition, and no,it's not it's not like that. So
were you at MTSU at all orwere you just in Murphreys Burrow? Yeah,

(04:18):
no, I was. I wasat MTSU. I went there,
my I started out there, andit was just an early time, you
know. I I had gotten outon my own for the first time.
I grew up. I was prettypretty good head growing up, and you
know, I didn't really do anythingto uh outside the box when it came

(04:39):
to extracurriculars. But I got toMurphy's Burrow and there's not a lot to
do there but just kind of party, and I just kind of went ballistic.
My freshman year ended up getting kickedout of my dorm and and it
was just it was just a lotlike didn't get candidacy. I was going

(05:00):
for the audio engineering program there andI didn't get candidacy. And they have
a couple different like barriers to entry, and they're like these like ones of
math class and I just like totallydid not do that well. And so
there were a lot of things.So Bellmont was like a hail Mary of
me, like I need to dosomething, I need to shift something drastic

(05:21):
to see if that will help merealign, which in a way it did,
I think a little bit. ButI left like halfway through my sophomore
year, I think is when Ileft. Okay, but I claim MTSU
as my alma mater, gotcha overBelmont even though I graduated from Belmont.

(05:43):
Well, I think a lot ofpeople, especially at that age I know
myself, like after graduating high school, we think we're going to Nashville to
do songwriting and music, and wejust have no idea about the business side
until maybe we go to college andstart learning about it and then oh,
I have to make a living,So we unintentionally get directed to the business

(06:05):
side and working in the business sideof the industry while being creative so I
think that's a similar stance for everyone. And I also want to talk about
how you became involved with song Farm. So yeah, yeah, it kind
of ties in with school Jam,you know, like that was a you

(06:30):
know, educational, extracurricular, educationalthing that changed the trajectory of my life
winning that contest in high school,you know. And so when I heard,
you know, I had gotten windof song Farm. They did the
first school. So what song fromis is they we fundraise with like songwriters
and companies and rich people in themusic industry, and then we take that

(06:54):
money and we go and put recordingstudios and creative tools and like underserved high
schools across the so a lot oftimes it'll be a songwriter's like high school
that they went to. That wasthe case of the first one. Uh
Ross Kopperman, he you know,wanted to put a studio in his high
school, and so he got withhis buddy Read Shipping and was like,
I want you to help me dothis, and Read is just like such

(07:15):
a big picture thinking guy. Iwas like, dude, I want to
do this, but I want todo this again and again and again and
again. So they started song Farm, and so yeah. When I had
heard about it. My roommate atthe time. God, this was like
back in twenty seventeen or eighteen.It's been a while. My roommate,
Matt Layton, had read ship andas an adjunct professor in MTSU, and

(07:36):
so that he had his contact information. He was like, hey, dude,
I heard my old professor Reid,who Read as a Grammy Award winning
mix engineer and he's just the best. You know. He was like,
Read, you know, starting anonprofit where they're helping high school kids with
creative tools. I was like,ooh, I had something kind of similar
that changed my life. I wantto be involved in this, and so

(07:59):
Read is very much so about givingback. You'll you're be hard pressed to
find a more selfless giver in thistown than read Shipping. But sorry,
my son is like screaming in thebackground. But no, when I heard
that that's what they were doing,uh, I knew I had to get
involved in one way or another.So yeah, I sent Read an email

(08:22):
and I was like, Hey,you don't know me, I don't know
you, but I heard you're doingthis thing and it sounds like something i'd
be really interested. And you know, learning more about and like being a
part of uh and uh. Hegot back to me and was like,
yeah, let's let's go get breakfast. So we met at that Fenwick's place
off eighth and like I had nevermet the guy before, and so we

(08:43):
just get to talk and I starttelling him a little bit about me,
and he's just like looking at meand he's like, you're gonna be my
director of technology. I was like, okay, okay. He was like,
yeah, you're He was like,you know what's going on with like
the new gear and stuff. He'slike I don't, and like you should.
You could like be our guy.And I was like, okay,
that sounds fine. And so likethat basically meant I was in charge of

(09:07):
figuring out what gear we were goingto purchase for these schools, torture testing
the gear, getting with the companiesthat make the gear, working out deals
with them, trying to get stuffdonated, you know, trying to do
everything I can to like build relationshipswith like gear companies. And so like
the first wave that that was rightaround that time that like the Summer NAM
Show was happening, and Reid waslike, hey, I got you a

(09:30):
pass. I want you to justgo and just reach the song farm Gospel
at NAM And I was like,Lord, like I was so timid at
this time, and just like youknow, like I'm gonna go talk to
strangers about this thing that I've onlybeen a part of for like a few
weeks. And but that was likean amazing experience. I just kind of
went by myself and started talking toall these different people and I realized pretty

(09:52):
quickly. I was like, becauseI had been to a NAM show for
the air, go we play stuff, and I was like, wait,
these are just a bunch of dorksjust like me. Like I don't like
they're all socially awkward in this room, Like like I can just go and
be open. And it was likeevery time I open my mouth about what
we're doing, somebody in another boothwould hear and then come over, and

(10:13):
like I would have like a crowdof people around me and people saying they
want to be involved. And sowe quickly like identified some companies that were
like definitely going to be involved.IK Multimedia was one of those companies,
and yeah, so I just startedhelping by gear that gear out, you
know, and then we ended uppartnering with VH one. They have a

(10:35):
nonprofit called Save the Music where they'rebasically doing what we do, but like
on a like massive, massive level, putting like crazy studios in high schools.
But we started fundraising with them andthey started bringing me in to all
their curriculum building stuff. So,like throughout the pandemic, I was meeting
with high school teachers in high schoolstudents on a weekly basis, doing like

(10:58):
workshops with them. We would getother songs writers and stuff to come in
and talk other engineers, Q andas, webinars and then just like you
know, having conversations with these teachersas they're trying to do this remote.
It was. It was nuts becausewe just started to get the ball rolling
in and the pandemic happened. Sobut yeah, song forms very cool.

(11:18):
We're in a transitional period right nowwhere we're kind of figuring some things out
on the back end, but Ithink it will still continue on. I'm
not sure exactly what it will looklike, but yeah, it's an amazing
thing and it's Reid has been sucha huge blessing in my life. Like
there's some people that just you I'msure you have many of them too,
that like came in and showed kindnessfor no reason, and that's that's been

(11:43):
him for me. So how manystudios has Song Farm been able to put
in high school so far? Ithink we've done for I want to say,
Okay, I don't great because yeah, if some of these companies are
able to donate any gear, thathelps. But other than that, it's

(12:03):
a lot of a lot of moneyto be able to do this. Yeah,
yeah, it definitely is. Andthere's like good thing is is like,
you know, budget gear now versusbudget gear ten years ago is like
very different. You know, likeyou can get a dope setup for like
not an insane amount of money,you know, And I think we saw,

(12:24):
you know, the whole you know, I know this has been talked
about a million times, but likeBillie Eilish and her brother doing what they
did with that record, and likeobviously that record went, you know,
they recorded it in their bedroom andof course it went and got mixed by
like a A plus mixer and anA plus mastering engineer, and like it's
not just two people recording on alaptop in their bedroom, you know,
winning all the Grammys. But whenthey made that record, that won all

(12:48):
the Grammys in their bedroom. Ithink that was like everyone going, oh
you know that plus pandemic plus TikTokentering the equation. It's just like,
oh, we we can do allof this ourselves, which is like,
yeah, there's never been more powerin an independent artist than right now.
Yeah. Yeah, And I knowthere's a focus with song Farm to serve

(13:11):
underprivileged high schools, but I thinknow more than ever, just public high
schools in general don't give much attentionor money to their music programs. So
I think basically any public high schoolcould use this kind of service one hundred
percent. Yeah. I mean we'renot just going into like the poorest of
the poor, Like there's all kindsof different schools that were that were like

(13:35):
you know, talking with but yeah, every school could use something like this
because like I mean, I'm thinkingback to high school now and like I
don't know if you remember, Imean, there wasn't really anything, you
know, you know, the bandroom was sad. Everything was just kind
of sad. In the music,music and department. They did not like

(13:56):
me down there either. My music. I took music theory my senior year
in high school was my lowest gradeI got in high school real theory.
Yes, it was bad. Itwas not a good situation. But like
I had like this like very clashingrelationship with the with the tea shirt at
the time. And we when wewon, well my band won that contest.

(14:18):
We won five grand for the school. It's great. Yeah, it
was awesome. And so the wholething with the contest was like, you
five grand for your school's music department. Well I was not okay with that
because the school, my school's musicdepartment did not do anything to support me,
you know, like there was nolike anything outside of like banding chorus,
and so I didn't let them havethe money. I like, as

(14:43):
like a seventeen year old, waslike, no, you guys can't have
this. I'm giving this to thetheater department. They're gonna put a new
pa in the theater and that's what'sgonna happen with this money. So yeah,
we didn't really have anything. Andthen I had burned that bridge with
the band department. Anyways, Sofor song farm in high school, and
I think, yeah, I thinkI had the same teacher for music theory

(15:05):
and ap music theory teachers. Ohyeah, we were buds so funny goodness.
Okay, So now I want toswitch gears and talk about Circle Back
Entertainment Group. So just fill usin when you started this full service music
company and how you came up witha name for it, because I love

(15:26):
that story too. Yeah, ohgosh, okay, man. So it's
about a year almost like a yearand a half ago, now, I
guess, so this was all bornout of, like, you know,
the first so the past, youknow, just to kind of go over
my timeline, I guess to makethis make sense. It's like, you

(15:48):
know, started playing guitar at liketwelve thirteen years old and like immediately started
writing, started playing in bands anddoing all that stuff, to getting out
to Nashville, ginuing to do thatstuff, but then like slowly being worn
down and like you know, realizingthat, oh, if I'm going to
do this and make money off ofthis, I need to do a lot

(16:11):
of different things. So I reallygot inundated into that like hustle culture,
like work hard, you know whatever. So that's kind of like where my
my mind was. We had alsojust had our son, My wife just
gave birth to our son, Hudsonat the time, and literally the first
nine months of this kid's life,he did not sleep, like straight up

(16:34):
like it. We had to geta sleep coach. It was like this
whole thing. God bless him.Now he sleeps great, well most of
the time, but uh so,like just lots of like up through the
night all night. So I waslistening to a ton of music podcasts,
you know, while I'm rocking Hudsonto sleep, and you know I was,
I was really getting inspired by thingsand really uninspired by, you know,

(16:56):
my day to day Jaba. Atthat point, I was at Concord.
I think I'd been at BMG fortwo and a half years, and
God blessed it kept me through thepandemic, and I'm very thankful for it,
but it just wasn't the right fitfor me. So I'm pretty uninspired
by my day to day job,pretty really inspired by being a dad,
and you know, listening to thesemusic podcasts all the time, and you

(17:18):
know, I come from the productionworld, so all my friends are you
know, they stayed producing and songwriting, you know, like when I went
and worked for labels, they keptfreelancing because they you know, went from
taking any client and every client tohaving a client that started to break to
you know, starting to work onmajor label records and things like that.
And so I'm looking back at myfriends at this point and I'm they're killing

(17:41):
it and crushing it, and I'vebeen on the admin side of things for
a while, and I started togo, you know what, I bet
I could like maybe help them alittle bit, like as far as like
keeping their life organized. And thenmaybe i could like bring clients into the
door because I'm just working in theindustry in so many different ways. I'm

(18:02):
coming in contact with so many differentartists all the time. You know,
maybe I could you know, helpthem and it's this mutually beneficial thing or
whatever. And so that was kindof the initial idea was circle Back.
I was the name was like aningest name, you know. It was
like I was in the hustle culturewhere everybody was talking about let's table this.
I don't have the band with,you know, we'll circle back like

(18:22):
all these like kitchy little phrases thateverybody uses. And one of the nights
I was rocking Hudson to Sleep,I was like circle back songs. I
was like, I wonder if solike everybody's like always like we'll circle back,
We'll circle back, and that's justlike a polite way to be like
no, but I was like,circle back songs like feels good to say,
like does this is this anything?And so I get my phone out

(18:44):
and I like in Google, youknow the quotes circle back songs and search
it. Like three results came upand I was like, whoa, this
doesn't exist. Like it was likeit had was being used like in a
like a PDF. It was likecircle back comment songs and like it wasn't
even anything. So that night Iwas like, I'm gonna buy a name

(19:06):
and I don't know what it's goingto be used for, but I feel
like I can help my creative friends. I feel like I can do something
outside of what I've been doing.And I don't want to operate as myself,
Like I don't want to operate asAlex Zimmerman. I don't know if
it's like an imposter syndrome thing orwhat I was. I've never been able
to like promote myself very well,which is part of the reason why I

(19:30):
feel like i've you know, there'smany reasons why I'm not a rock star
right now, but you know,I'm just really bad at the at the
whole self promotion thing, you know, the thing you have to do.
So yeah, I had this ideafor this name. I immediately got the
Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, SoundCloud, eat, Gmail, like you name

(19:53):
it. Anything I could buy urlto secure this name. And then I
just started helping out my producer friends. And then that lasted for like a
month maybe, and then like allthe artists they were working with started hitting
me up, and then like theirfriends started hitting me up and they were
like, hey, you know,I heard you, you know, kind

(20:15):
of you know, because my wholething was like I have this network,
these friends that are producers, mixingengineers, mastering engineers, lighting designers,
you know, front of house,you know guys, you know, monitor
guys, you know crew, gotlike video people, you know, every
every single corner of the music industry. I have multiple people in that I've

(20:37):
be come from. These are justfriends, you know. And I'm sure
you have this too, you know, when you're here long enough and you
do do enough stuff here, youend up you know. And these were
like meaningful, real relationships. Thiswasn't me going to like some networking event
or anything like like, these arepeople I like met at MTSU or you
know, met when I went toBelmont and just like became really good friends
with I've never been to a networkingevent before, so so yeah, I

(21:03):
start getting inundated with all these peoplethat want want help, and then it's
just kind of turned into this veryvague but like, hey, I know
a lot of people. I doa lot of stuff myself too. If
you're an artist, I'll talk toyou. If you're a producer, I'll
talk to you. If you're amarketing person, I'll talk to you.
Like I just have people. Ilove connecting people. That's also something that

(21:26):
I didn't know was a skill untilrecently that like, oh, you know,
like seeing a person over here anda person over here that don't know
each other and going, hmmm,I feel like these people need to be
in the same room. Like that'sa skill that not I guess not everybody
has. And so yeah, it'sbeen really rewarding for me to just to
look back at the like past yearand a half of you know, I

(21:49):
haven't made really any money off ofthis, Like this is not I hope
one day maybe we'll see I don'tknow what I even want out of this
career, honestly. But it's beenreally cool to see, you know,
some of the artists that we workedwith Land like big editorial playlists last year
and like you know, land bigtours and like, these are just people

(22:12):
that were strangers a year and ahalf ago that like I now considered to
be really great close people in mylife. But yeah, it's just a
way that I'm able to like helpcreative people with the resources that I've been
blessed to have in my life.And yeah, if you're a creative person
and you're making records or you wantto, you know, get into this

(22:36):
music space, like I'll go getcoffee with you and and try to help.
It's becoming a problem though, becauseI'm trying to help way too many
people. My wife's like, youhelp somebody else, I'm going to kill
you. That's awesome. Yeah,you've definitely already have already helped and managed
a lot of indie artists. Sowhat would you say are your future plans

(22:57):
or hopes for Circle Back? Yeah, I mean, like ultimately, like
I would love for it to functionas like a label or like a label
services like it already is, butlike in a more legitimate way, Like
I would love to have a relationshipwith like a distributor like FUGA or Absolute

(23:18):
or you know, even like thelocal distributor in National Tone Tree or whoever
they are. You know, Iwould love to have like our own distribution
platform that we can do stuff through. I'm not interested in owning anybody's intellectual
property. I have zero interest inowning anything. I believe in like short

(23:41):
term term, realistic contractual relationships withfees attached onto legitimate services that work,
and not not owning any copyrights oranything like that. So yeah, I
mean, like that's you know,in a perfect world, it would be

(24:03):
its own little indie label with akick ass relationship with the distributor and a
publisher do an admin for us,and we just get to make put out
like really crazy out of the offthe wall. Like some of the stuff
I worked on last year was likestraight up worship music. Some of it
was punk music over in Germany,some of it is Americano music in the

(24:25):
UK, some of it's like indierock and Nashville. Like it's truly all
over the place, and like thatis my taste at the end of the
day, is all over the place. So yeah, I would love to
have an eclectic indie label that isthriving. That's what I would love for
it to be. And I thinkas an indie label, it's smarter to

(24:45):
almost do like a fee system insteadof taking their publishing or part of their
masters part of their royalties, becausethen it can get too much as an
indie label, especially when streams generateso little royalties, you're trying to use
someone else to collect the royalties from, you know, all different territories.

(25:06):
Yeah, yeah, it gets veryhairy. So yeah, I mean,
I don't I don't know what Iwant it to become at the end of
the day, but I know thatI enjoy helping artists I love, and
like, I'm not just gonna likeI want to help everyone that asks for
help. I really do. Themore the older I get, the longer

(25:27):
I do this, the more Irealize I can't. I can't help every
single person that reaches out to me. I want to, but I can't.
So you know, I would loveto really chase after like a handful
of things and help develop artists,you know, I really do, because

(25:48):
there's not a lot of people thatare developed. Helping artists develop right now.
I mean, any any label isgonna want you to come to the
table with you know, following ofyour own, which like is smart,
Like it's duh, Like if youback to I was saying earlier, like
you have the power as an independentartist who get your own audience now,
whereas like you didn't five ten yearsago, not the way you not the

(26:10):
way you can now. So Iget it why a label would say,
hey, you need to have Xy Z for us to work with you,
like totally, but I would loveto have like something I took from
zero to you know, on adope tour. You know, that would
be cool to watch which one ofthe bands I'm working with, Like really

(26:33):
she has like false lefty. Igot a sponsored post that showed up the
algorithm chucked me like a year ago, and it was just this this dude
in this girl and the girl isplaying a kick drum, a snare drum
and a was it a floor tomand she's standing up and she has no

(26:57):
seat. And then the guitar playerhas a guitar that has three strings on
it and the caption, the captionwas three drums, three strings, what
else do you need? And Iwas like the heck, and so I
followed them go to their page.No music is out, so I like
send them a DM and I'm like, hey, uh this the algorithm chucked

(27:18):
me your guys profile, like doyou guys play three string guitars and only
use kicksnare well? Tom also isshe's standing up and they were like,
yeah, we've played in different bandsbefore and this was an idea to see
how much we can strip back fromyou know, production and and and make
it about the music and see whatwe can do with it. And I

(27:41):
was like, amazing, are youguys recording music? And they're like yeah,
we're finishing up. I was like, send it to me when you're
done, like I would love tohear this. And then you know,
I kind of agreed like at thatmoment, like hey, I'm I'm They
were in Germany and Cologne, Germany, and I was, I'm here in
Nashville. I'm like, hey,like, I'm totally down to help you
guys out with like whatever you needin the States. And I had never
heard any music because it didn't existyet. And so they finally sent me

(28:06):
a song a couple of weeks latercalled Tanker, a and it was awesome.
I was like, oh my god, this is so amazing. Like
it's just this really cool like garagerock, indie rock, slacker vibe and
like Tom in that band False Leftyjust sounds to me exactly like Damon Auburn
from The Gorillas and Blur, andit's funny they grew up in the same

(28:30):
town apparently, but like just hasthis really great voice. And then Viva,
his girlfriend, she just never hasbeen in a band before. Like
it was like a drunken idea,like he was like in a band and
they were like having fights and stuffand she was He was like, we
should just start a band, andshe literally never played drums before, and

(28:51):
now she's They got like a bookingagent over in Germany. This past year
had been playing like thousand cap roomslike over and over and over again,
like opening up for these like crazyawesome bands and like, yeah, last
time we talked, there's like reallyamazing stuff happening with them, so uh
yeah, I love I love that, even just this far into circle back

(29:11):
that I've already like made friends withthese people that are sharing like life events
with me, and and uh yeah, it's it's been amazing it really,
it really has been. It's beenhard, but it's been amazing. So
are there recordings as stripped back inthe recordings too, like three string guitar,
Yeah, yes, totally. Likehe's got like he does a lot

(29:33):
of pedal work live and stuff,and they're like sending you know, like
obviously like there's some studio stuff thatsome overdubbing and stuff that they do,
but like he's very much so like, I do not want this to sound
like a like like there's a bunchof guitars. I do not want this
to sound like there's a bass Likehe he splits his guitar signal into a

(29:53):
bass rig and a guitar rig whenhe plays live and when he records.
But yeah, there was like halfthe battle was like they would go get
mixes done and I'd be like thissounds kick ass and Tom would be like,
no, it sounds way too produced. I'm like, bro, what
He's like, no, no,no, no, it needs to sound
worse, and so they would gogo get it like send off to somebody

(30:14):
else until it was like exactly theway that he wanted it to and like
props to him for doing it thatway. Like it turned out amazing,
Like I couldn't do that. That'sawesome. Yeah. So kind of going
back to when you were saying that, you know, an artist needs to
have XYZ to get that record deal. They need to be developed to a

(30:37):
certain point to be ready to signa record deal. So, with how
everything is going with streaming and technologyand just different outlook on things nowadays,
do you think it's better for anartist to sign with a major label or
a smaller label these days or whatare your thoughts on that in general?

(31:00):
Mmm? Oh, I have many. Generally speaking, you do not need
a label. I mean just generallyspeaking, Like, what is a record
label doing for you? Okay,so a record label is distributing your music.
A record label is, you know, putting it out on all the
streaming sites you know, and traditionallythat record label will have its own publisher

(31:26):
or a deal with another publishing companythat is doing the admin for the publishing.
So you're you're dealing with distribution,You're dealing with with publishing admin.
What else is the record label doingfor you? It's doing marketing, well,
all of those things minus the publishing. Really you can do on your
own pretty even with the publishing,you can do a lot on your own.

(31:48):
I mean, granted, you're nevergoing to be able to cover as
much ground as like a big publishingcompany is gonna be able to. As
an indie artist, publishing excluded,you can pretty much do everything yourself.
And so then all of a suddenand you had all of these companies coming
up that were offering label services deals. You know, they're offering like we'll
do your distribution, we'll do yourpublishing admin. Everything else is up to

(32:08):
you, which is great. Ithink that's a deal you should be signing.
If you're an artist and you knowyou want to take things to the
next level, look for relationships thatare label services based, because the reality
is you as a as an artist, can can do your own marketing or
contract it out to a third partymarketer that are a dime a dozen.

(32:30):
It's get talk to me or somebodylike me before you, you know,
start paying someone to do marketing andthings for you, because there's a lot
of just shady shit going on andthe like marketing, playlisting landscape right now.
But like, no, I don'tthink you need a record deal.

(32:50):
Like, as as an artist,you you have the ability to generate an
audience on your own. It's alot of work. And what you trade
when you get a record deal,you give away a piece of your intellectual
property, and what you're getting inreturn is access to a marketing team that's
probably understaffed, that's probably underpaid,and that answers to probably a board.

(33:17):
So you're trading your intellectual property inperpetuity usually for that. I don't know,
it just doesn't seem like that greatof a deal anymore. Yeah,
And I think it can still lookso shiny to indie artists too that don't

(33:39):
have the means to finance their ownmarketing or their own press. So they're
like, oh, if I'm gettingthis money upfront and they take care of
all the work that I don't understand, and that's great. But then the
money's great at first, but thensome of those artists never recoup it back,

(33:59):
and then they're just kind of stuckin the hole and stuck under this
contract and don't own their own art. Yeah, one hundred percent, you
know, like if that and like, I'm not saying that all record labels
are bad or it's a bad businessmove on your part to to do it,
like totally can be can be beneficial. But I just say, you

(34:23):
owe it to your if that's whereyour head is, if that's what you
think you're you're ready for. Youowe it to yourself to take six months
and drop three tiktoks a day,Like you owe it to yourself to see
how much of an audience you cangrab on your own. It's a lot
of work. A lot of people, a lot of artists get frustrated with

(34:45):
me because they think I have somesort of magic button I can press for
them that gets them out of doingtiktoks and things like that. And I'm
like, y'all, if I hadthat button, I would have smashed it
for myself ten years yars ago,Like, I'm sorry. There is no
shortcut. There is no me pitchingto some Spotify editor that's gonna make your

(35:07):
career take off like that. Youcan you can not do the work,
the legwork to get to like it'sit is hard. There is like one
hundred thousand songs being uploaded every freakingday. It has nothing to do with
how good your song is anymore.Like that whole adage of like a good

(35:28):
song will find its audience, Idon't believe it anymore. I don't think
that that's true anymore. It can'tbe true. There's so many amazing songs
we will never ever hear. Yeah, never. It's so oversaturated. And
I know that's like beating a deadhorse here. Everybody's saying it, but
like it is, and like itcan be incredibly discouraging. But I think

(35:51):
as an artist you have to liketune your expectations of Like, if I'm
only putting in a certain amount intothis, I cannot be expecting some unequal
return. There is no magic button. Anybody that looks like Overnight's success is
not going viral. Isn't even youknow, going to carry you like it

(36:15):
used to. I mean, howmany of those TikTok kids got record deals
and got eaten up? I mean, like I want to sit down with
Mason Ramsey so bad. I justwant to be like, Bro, you
were the hottest thing in the worldand then I saw you were at working
at Subway. Just take me throughit, man, like I want to
hear every step of the way.Yeah, and that's important too. Just

(36:38):
put all the work yourself you caninto it, and then I think you'll
find the right people for your thatyou need. For your career. And
I heard something really great at apanel last week as to never sign a
deal or sign any contract when you'retoo high up on the scale of feeling

(37:00):
great, feeling you know, highon dopamine at a show, and never
sign anything when you're feeling too lowor depressed about yourself. So yeah,
just take the time. So there'slike a five minute window in my twenty
four hours where that is the case, and it's in the middle of the
night. Yeah, I don't know, true, it's true. Yeah,

(37:23):
I love if you're feeling bad aboutyourself, you're just like, oh,
I'll sign any deal that comes myway if someone cares about me, or
yeah, even if you're feeling reallygood, you're like, oh, people
love me, I need to signthis, or yeah, being a snob
about the deal too. So doit when you're level headed and you have

(37:45):
an attorney at least. Apparently allthose like warp Tour esque labels back in
the mid two thousands were notorious forhaving contracts backstage. Yeah, that makes
sense, like that that was likehow they would like finalize the It was
like, oh, they're on adopamine high, let's just get the signature
yeah, exactly. Yeah, sodon't do that. Yeah, don't do

(38:06):
that. And then we've talked alot about, you know, ties between
both of us being a music industryprofessional and a creative at the same time,
and I think that's the case fora lot of people. A lot
of people who work even entry levelmusic business jobs are creative as well.
So in that sense, what areyour thoughts about a music industry professional that's

(38:32):
also a musician. So, Imean, I think it's I think it's
great because if you're working in amusic business side job, you understand how
you're helping creatives because you have apassion for music yourself. So if I

(38:54):
have a creative sense in me,I'm glad to help other creatives on the
business side and help them understand royalties, et cetera. Right, But on
the flip side, there's a lotof music companies that tend to not hire
someone who perhaps they look on Spotify. Oh, this person releases their own

(39:17):
music, they're a performer. I'mnot sure if I want to hire them
because their head is going to besomewhere else. So what do you think
is the fine line with someone whohas their foot in both doors? Yeah,
goodness. Yeah. I mean thereality is is most of the people

(39:37):
here that are going for these jobsat these labels came to Nashville to be
a rock star. You know.We weren't learning how to play guitar someday
because we really couldn't wait to getinto Microsoft Excel. So like it's like,
we're all here, and I lovehaving those conversations with people like it
would especially when it was like BMGand Concord would almost catch people off ar.

(40:00):
I was like, so you makemusic, obviously, Like where's the
link? Like, I know youmake music. You didn't come here because
you love copyright. Like that's nottrue. So I think in a sense,
everyone is kind of an artist,uh in their own right. But
I think it's a great I thinkit's a great way to go after a

(40:21):
creative career. You know, Ithink you're in it. You're you are
inundated into the industry. You aremaking connections with people that could further your
own artist career. But yeah,you've got to have a good head on
your shoulders. You've got to beable to like totally knock it out of
the park at your job. Sothat gives them no, nothing bad to

(40:45):
say about you pursuing creat creative paths. I mean, gosh, I cannot
tell you how many people I've workedwith that sucked at their job and they
weren't even an artist, you know. So like, you know, like
I think, I think it's agreat way to do it. I had
this kid, he's not a kid, I guess he graduated now, but

(41:05):
he's a good friend of mine,went to Belmont. But you know,
he was asking me, you know, I really want to chase it with
my band, Like, but Igot an offer to work at this management
company, Like, what do youthink I should do? I'm like,
both, man, both of thosethings you should do. Like, it's
music and now, like if youwant to make it, it's not just
making music. It's music and doingyour marketing and doing your own you know,

(41:30):
promo, and you know, doingyour own booking and all of the
above. So yeah, I thinkit's a great, a great thing.
I mean, I have not beenI guess I'm not the most certified to
speak on this because I have notbeen a consistent I have not been consistently
putting out what I create into theether over the past couple of years.

(41:52):
But I'm trying to change that thisyear. I don't write a ton of
songs at the end of the day, like I know for a fact,
you've probably written like ten times theamount of songs that I've written in my
life. I find that my creativeseasons are like binging and purging, and

(42:13):
sometimes the purge is like five years, like it's crazy with me, Like
when life gets stressful or something like, I don't create, I just like
get in the weeds. And Ithink a lot of that has to do
with like just me, you know, I have OCD diagnosed as a very
young kid. You know, Ithink that that a lot of it is

(42:37):
swings on that it's just my personality. But no, I have not been
a consistently creative person. I mean, last couple of years have been crazy
for everybody. The last thing Iwas thinking about during CODE was writing a
song while everybody was doing that.I just it just didn't hit me like
that. Then. Yeah, fortunately, I mean that's the case for many

(43:01):
creatives. We go through seasons whereyou know, I'll have old song ideas
in my back pocket, but I'mnot coming up with anything new, or
I'm relying on my co writer tobring the idea to the table that day
because I just have nothing. Andwe all go through that, especially when
our you know, mental state isstressed or in a frenzy, we are

(43:24):
not in a place to create.So I mean that's where it could also
be great for us to focus onsomething else and music, whether that's business
side, marketing on our past releases, whatever. I think the only thing
to consider with someone who's a creativewhile holding a job on the business side

(43:49):
of the industry. I mean,it's it's great because you can financially make
your creative side feasible for recording,et cetera. But it and also be
hard if you're trying to go outthere on tour. So when it comes
down to that, you just needto figure out do I want to be
on the road all the time,or you know, do I want to
be home with my family and stillcreate and make money. And then also

(44:15):
to that note, you know,don't go knocking on A and R's door
and the company you're working for andtrying to you know, yet your music
and yeah, not going to goover Yeah yeah, yeah, have some
tact for sure. But yeah,I mean it's get really good at your

(44:36):
job, like there's like this thisI'm you are a very organized. One
time, I remember I asked youif you could like send me out your
songs that are like up for grabs. I was working on a project.
You sent me like an Excel documentthat was like the most organized thing in
the world. Was like Jesus,But no, Like there's this myth that
people in the city, in thisindustry have. It was like you either

(44:58):
creative or your business a savvy.You're either creative or you're attentive to detail,
and like that's just not true.You can be both of those things.
I see it happen all the time. The people that are really that
do put food on the table andcontinue to in this town, in this
industry do all of those things.Well, So yeah, don't don't come

(45:22):
out here thinking you can be anincognito artist working on the business side of
things and slip your music to theA and rget like it's just not going
to have it. Be a realhuman, you know, be real.
Understand that the guy that handed youyour coffee this morning might have a million
followers on TikTok. Understand that,like, not every situation is a situation

(45:45):
for you to prove yourself in that'shuge. I mean every people could sniff
on all terior motive so quickly,and like when you look at like when
I go back and look at likethe really eight things that have happened for
me in the past couple of yearsbeing in Nashville, almost none of it
is based on like something I did, or like some merit or some like

(46:08):
success or It's like it's all basedon like I just really got along with
this person really really well. Solike I mean, half the time getting
in the room is just by isjust by being a good hang, and
that's how you stay in the roomtoo. I mean it really none of
this is rocket science. None ofthis music industry stuff is rocket science.

(46:30):
None of this stuff can't be taught. It can all be taught. What
cannot be taught is how to bea good hang. So like analyze it,
ask yourself, am I a goodhang? Or am I constantly trying
to get something out of this?And you know it just it's not gonna
work that way. Yeah, relationshipsare important, especially when both sides benefit

(46:52):
from the relationship. And it's alsoso important now to where multiple has in
the industry be able to be creativeand business oriented no matter what your goal
is, because not only is itsaturated on the creative side with technology and

(47:13):
streaming and the amount of songs beinguploaded per day, but the competition is
pretty great in the business side.To so many people into Nashville just to
get a you know, a jobin the music industry, I cannot tell
you. I mean, when Ilook at I'm very fortunate to have worked
for the companies that I worked forand work for the company that I do

(47:36):
work for, Integrity Music. Buthow many knows I got in the in
the past five years is astonishing,Like even coming out of jobs that you're
like, oh, I'm a shoein you know, like in the most
humble way. You know, youlook at your experiences, I have all
of the things they're looking for,and you know, it's still so so

(48:00):
competitive, Like if you think thatgoing into the business side is going to
be some safer route for you,maybe a little bit, but not not
really. Like it's still it's ascompetitive and cutthroat as as it is on
the artist side. And you know, you have people that I mean,

(48:21):
God, every six months Spotify islaying off how many people, Like God,
you couldn't. I wouldn't. Idid not want to work over there,
Like it sounds terrifying. So yeah, last week Pandora laid off one
hundred and sixty people the same daythat MLC lawsuit went live. So that
was it. I don't know ifyou saw that. That was very interesting.

(48:42):
I think I did. Yeah,yeah, yeah. Apparently Pandora wasn't
paying out royalties from like the Freemiumaccount from like decades ago, and they're
like they're not going to be ableto like do any sort of like yeah,
they're gonna have to settle, Likeit's just gonna have to be like
a here is a very large lumpsum of money MLC. And so yeah,

(49:02):
they laid off one hundred and sixtypeople overnight. Wow. Yeah,
it's an interesting time to be inthe music industry. So yeah, yeah,
very much so. But yeah,you know, back to what you
were saying is like an artist thatlike wants to come out here and like
like yes, like come out hereand and hustle and get get a job

(49:23):
at a label and get a jobdoing and like understand that like it might
be doing something that you're not youknow, ever thought about doing. You
know, like for me, itwas copyright. You know, I never
thought about working, you know,in the copyright side of things, and
like, I know that's what you'vebeen very familiar with. Unfortunate to do
as well, but that got myfoot in the door. That got my

(49:44):
foot in the door in a bigway. And continue to be like a
snowball and and and we'll always beso yeah, I mean, come out
here, be really hard, youknow, be a really hard worker,
be really good at your job,and pursue your artistry. I don't know
what it's going to look like forme, but you know, I've got
a bunch of music that I'm puttingout this year. I'm going back.

(50:07):
It's all old music. Yeah,and I want to I want to kind
of wrap and talk about that ona positive note. Yeah, totally,
Yeah, sort of bum everyone outon this. Well, I think just
to close on that point, justjust be authentic and you know, the

(50:27):
different things you find yourself working andif it's side gigs, producing, doing
you know, an entry level labelgig and royalties and copyright, use those
new skills you're creating to help yourcreative side and see what you can offer
as an artist in person. Soyeah, just be authentic, find the

(50:52):
positives in the industry that you canuse for your own career. They are
out there. It all, itall feeds the same machine, and you
know, you're just going to meetpeople that inspire you as you get out
into this. And you know,I've eliminated the idea of like a dream

(51:15):
job from my from my line ofsight, like it's just not there isn't
like, that's not what I'm after. I am after there's multiple lanes that
I feel alive in and when thoselanes open up, I want to go
be able to go down those lanesfor as long as I need to.

(51:37):
And that's what a dream career lookslike for me. It's just like multiple
lanes, different seasons, stepping downdifferent lanes as long as it like makes
me feel alive. And I'm like, yes, I'm being utilized effectively in
this. To me, it's awin. Yeah. Yeah. Our dream

(51:59):
careers can shift over time, andas we're approaching it, we realized that
we never even thought that job orcareer existed before. Yeah, one,
one hundred percent. So just comeyou know, like, if you're a
young person wanting to get out intothis, like you know, please don't

(52:22):
be discouraged by the things I haveto say. It's just a lot.
This is my eleventh year in MiddleTennessee. You know, it's full of
ups and downs and zigs and zagsand forwards and backwards and no path to
success or peace or whether that beyou know, mental peace, financial peace,
whatever. None of it is astraight line. You're gonna zig and

(52:45):
zag and backtrack, and and whenyou're in those zig zags and backtracks like
you cannot you can't never never,This is so cheesy, but never give
up, like because the day youdidn't, somebody else did and now they're
out of your way. Somebody elsequit today, a bunch of people quit

(53:05):
today, and you just moved up. So absolutely it's worth it. Yeah,
if it's your dream, if it'swhat you love, it's it's totally
worth it. Yeah, one hundredpercent. So I want to close with
you mentioned how you're putting new musicout this year, and I definitely want
to talk about that. You're puttingout a song next month on March fourth,

(53:30):
and so might be out, probablybe out when this episode is out.
Yes, So if this episode,if you're listening to this episode,
you can go listen to it.It's under your artist project under the name
Hugs. Hugs. Yes, andit's hummon. It's called Humming Humming by
Hugs. Yeah. You know,Hugs has been like a It's been the

(53:55):
thing I've put the least amount oftime. I haven't spent any money on.
I haven't done anything for never playeda show as Hugs. It's just
been like a studio project in away for me to release music. And
it is the most successful music thingI've ever been a part of. And

(54:16):
have a song that's like nine thousandstreams away from hitting a million right now,
and that's just a crazy thing tome. So yeah, Hummin is
a song that is probably the firstthing I recorded in Nashville when I moved
here. In my I've just readthat you dug it up from the archives

(54:37):
and just thought about releasing this,which I think is really cool because there's
so many of us that have songscollecting dust out there. And even if
you know, even if the vocalsare like ten years old on it,
productions ten years old, it canstill be relevant to today. So release

(54:58):
it if you feel like you needto, totally. I mean, yeah,
like I had a you know,I had this really awesome blessing in
my life. This past December.A friend of mine named Zach gave me
a MacBook Pro for Christmas, andthat was one of my main excuses I
was making is I didn't really havea function in computer. That's why I'm

(55:19):
not making music. So give methis computer. And I have started opening
up logic sessions from you know,eight to ten years ago, and Hummon
was one of those ones, Likeit's lived on my phone for a long
time. I actually found the voicememo recently from when I was home for
I think winter break, and Imade the voice memo in my parents' basement

(55:44):
in Knoxville in twenty sixteen. Thissong, so it's very old. Probably
the first thing I tracked when Imoved to Nashville in my apartment Candlewood apartments,
off herding place, lots of roaches, scary place sometimes, but yeah,
I mean, you know, Ikind of talked about it earlier.

(56:05):
I was diagnosed with OCD when Iwas nine years old. It's been a
humongous part of my life. Ideal with intrusive thoughts, I deal with
all the things that people with OCDdeal with, and so Humming is a
song about all of those things.You know. I opened the logic session.
I'm hearing this person sing that isan Alex that just turned twenty one,

(56:25):
and I'm turned thirty this year now, so I'm listening to this,
and I'm like, Wow, thisis incredibly honest and sad, but sung
with such conviction that I could notrecreate today as an almost thirty year old
father of one with a second onthe way in August, Like I could

(56:49):
not sing this song today the waythat I sang it then. Mainly,
you know, one is this theheadspace. I was also smoking like a
pack and a half of cigarettes backthen, my voice sounded different. I
don't sound that way anymore. Idon't smoke anymore. So Yeah, I
took one, listen to it andwent, I'm not gonna even try to
sing this like I'm gonna use thisvocal take that was honestly probably just a

(57:13):
one. I don't even think itwas a comp like I think. I
just sang it one time through andopened it up on my new computer.
I started mixing it, which Idon't normally do. I don't normally mix.
I mean I mix my stuff thatlives on my phone that no one
ever listens to. But I've nevermixed something that's streaming out there. I
always get my buddy Robbie to mixeverything. He's just so good. Robbie

(57:35):
artists, get him to mix yourrecord, He's insane. But uh.
I mixed it and sent it toRobbie as just a like nudge, like
hey, like look I'm doing somethingagain, yeah, and I misread his
text back to me. He said, dude, this sounds great. Let
me know if you need help withthe mix slash master. I read,

(57:59):
let me know if you want meto master it. So I thought Robbie
was signing off of my mix,which I was like so flattered. I
had this compliment that was not givento me. I was like, oh,
Robbie thinks is good, Okay,amazing. I was like, yes,
please you can master it. Pleasemaster it. And so I remember,

(58:20):
like he sent it back to me, and I'm listening to it and
I'm like, this sounds amazing,and I'm looking at my text and I
realized that he had offered to mixit, and I was like, shit,
I would have let him mix ithad I know. But I'm so
glad that I didn't read it rightbecause I learned that I can mix.
Yeah, So I've actually since then, since I mixed that a couple months
ago, I've actually mixed another songfor another band that's coming out in the

(58:45):
next couple of months. So I'mlike kind of like this has kind of
caused me to like ech into likethis whole mixing side that I've never thought
about before. That's great, Gladyou kept the vocal the same, because
uh yeah, I just listened toit and it sounds great and the mix
sounds great, And I think thatcan be definitely a scary thing as an

(59:07):
artist to release something that you mixedyourself, because it's a whole different thing
mixing someone else's song. But whenyou're working on your own song and music
that you're going to release, Iknow with some songs that I release that
I mix myself, I'm like,I feel like this isn't done. I

(59:28):
feel like it's never going to bedone, never going to make a million
changes to it. And yeah,it's scary to release something you mixed yourself.
So but once you do it,you know, you feel like you
can mix more of your own songs, learn more, and also have that
credit to be able to say Imixed my own song. Yeah, it's

(59:50):
something I've been really thinking about.And I can close with this because I
don't want to harp on about nonsenseforever. But this whole idea of like
ten thousand hours like that, youknow, I think it was Malcolm Gladwell
that made that, you know,point in his book about you know,
that's what it takes to master askill, or you know, it's ten
thousand hours of doing something. It'slike I, I don't have ten thousand

(01:00:12):
hours behind a mixing console, butI definitely have more than ten thousand hours
of analytically listening to and writing music, and so do all the people in
my circle. And what I realizedwith this is that my instincts and my
reflect my my reflex response to musicis probably pretty okay, Like it probably

(01:00:40):
is sufficient because I'm so familiar withit all. And so yeah, it
took me misreading a text to likeget to this point, but like I
realized, like, my knee jerksare probably pretty good with this, and
I know I know how to use, you know, a compressor, and

(01:01:05):
and because I've I've been using onefor forever, and so yeah, it's
just nice to step into this seasonnow of like realizing that I have another
skill that I didn't know that Ihad, and like already h a buddy
of mine, you know, heardhumming and thought it sounded great and wanted
me to mix his band, andso I did and and it was amazing,

(01:01:29):
Like I'm I like it was lastweek and like went through like we
did like five revisions. I mean, it's a pretty complicated song, but
it was just so cool to belike I have been the artist on that
side of the exchange over and overand over again. It's now to be
the mixing engineer, being like takingnotes from people and like, hey,
I hope I can, hope Ican make this sound like it wants in

(01:01:50):
their head. But yeah, it'sit's been really fun. If you want
me to mix your song, I'mreally cheap because I've a new season for
me, So holler at me.That's awesome And it's so great just to
add more of those skills to yourtoolbox too, to be able to do
that and make money and music,so go figure. Yeah, So it's

(01:02:15):
tough. So everyone please stream andlisten to Hummin' by Hummus. Yeah,
wherever you get your music, givesome pennies to streaming. We're gonna be
buying twice the diapers here in August, so we'll take all the streams we
can get. Congrats, that's soexciting. Thank you. Yeah, we're

(01:02:38):
excited. We are. It's amazing. Being a dad is the best.
I We have one right now.His name is Hudson, and he's two,
and he is bonkers. He looksjust like his mom, he acts
just like me. It's he is. He's the best. And we can't
wait to see what this next oneis. Uh is all about too?

(01:03:00):
And then everyone go follow Alex onat circle back EG, on Instagram and
anywhere else you want to send peopleto. Yeah, yeah at circle back
EG. Instagram is the thing I'mthe most active on. Alex at circle
backeg dot com is my email address. You know, feel free to hit

(01:03:22):
me up for anything and everything.If you're in the music industry and have
needs or want to get in themusic industry, like I'm an open book.
I'll connect you with people, I'lllisten to your music, I'll give
feedback. I'm very busy. Sothere it might be a gap and you
might have to remind me, butI will get back to you. But

(01:03:44):
yeah, circle backug and then ifyou want to keep up with hugs,
I don't even know what I haveno expectations with it, but it's at
just me hugs on Instagram. AndI made a TikTok, which I know.
I'm constantly telling artists what they needto do on TikTok and never have
done it for myself, so I'mlike, well, maybe I should get
on there. Yeah, it's justso much work, Ali, Yeah it

(01:04:06):
is. I mean, yeah,it is. It's a ton of work.
And like anybody that has a bunchof TikTok followers like they probably worked
for it. Yeah. Absolutely,they definitely did well. Alex, thank
you so much for your time todayand I just appreciate you sharing your story
with everyone. Thanks for having me. I love this podcast and I can't

(01:04:30):
wait to keep listening to this podcastbecause everyone should listen to this podcast.