March 11, 2024 • 25 mins
Sarah Harralson interviews drummer/percussionist and music therapist, Andrew Kugler about the importance of music therapy.
Contact Andrew for any music therapy or percussion needs here:
Email: drewdrums1@gmail.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andrewkugler1
Contact Andrew for any music therapy or percussion needs here:
Email: drewdrums1@gmail.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andrewkugler1
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Hi. My name is Sarah Harrilson, and you are listening to the second
season of my podcast, Mind YourMusic Business. Thank you so much everyone
for the support of season one andtuning in today. So today's a fun
episode because it's the first in person, live interview of the show. Usually
my other interviews are over zoom withthe guest, and today's episode is in
(00:32):
person because I actually live with today'sguest on the podcast. I'm not just
having him on because we're in arelationship, but I think his field of
work is a great topic to bringmore awareness in the music industry, and
I just want to talk about musictherapy today. So I think music therapy
is a very important topic to talkabout because I think this part of music
(00:58):
and part of the music industry issometimes often overlooked and undervalued. So before
we talk about the background of AndrewKugler, who is here with us today,
can you just start by defining whatmusic therapy is for us, because
(01:19):
I think there can be some confusionas to what music therapy actually is.
We know music can be very therapeuticand healing, but for instance, I'm
a volunteer with Musicians on Call providingmusic to the bedsides of hospital patients.
But it's not considered music therapy asI'm not a licensed music therapist, So
(01:41):
please define music therapy for us andlet us know what music therapy looks like
for you. Sure, sure,thank you for having me. I do
think what you do is music therapy. It's a different form. It's more
like musopathy, which is more ofa generic form of sounds that patients or
people you are playing for have areaction to the music. So I think
(02:01):
it's incredibly important, and I applaudyou for doing that, and anyone that
works in volunteers for that. It'sa wonderful, wonderful thing. Music therapy,
as defined, is the clinical andevidence based use of music interventions to
accomplish individualized goals with a therapeutic relationshipby a credentialed professional who has completed an
(02:23):
approved music therapy program. In regularterms, I work with primarily with children
with physical and or cognitive challenges,usually both, but sometimes it's either or,
And we do use music, primarilypercussion based, because drums is what
my focus has always been in music. The interesting thing about music therapy is
(02:46):
that it's often applied to clients withnot just physical or cognitive challenges, but
you'll see various schizophrenic patients to theextreme all the way to down syndrome,
aspergers, and even extreme stress responsesto everyday situations. The music really allows
(03:07):
the entire brain to be enacted.As everybody knows, music is one of
the most influential things on our brainand stimulates the entire part. It's not
the only thing, but it isone of the most important things, and
I think that's kind of the differencewith musicians on call. Obviously, our
volunteers are not licensed in music therapy, and that's one of the reasons we
(03:31):
can't say that it's music therapy,even though it feels like it is,
since we're providing healing to people whoare in hospital rooms. And then the
other thing, we don't really atthis time work or play music for people
as special needs. We're starting toget into behavioral health programs, but there's
(03:53):
so much extra training that we haveto do in order to be in a
room room with people who have extraneeds. So I think that might be
the difference. It is, andthere are serious limitations with music therapy as
well. It is not a cure. All it can help alleviate responses to
(04:15):
different situations. But if you havea client with bipolar one more so than
two, that is also a physicalchallenge to the body, to the brain.
Whereas music therapy can help them copewith different situations and deal with it,
you still have to have the psychotherapyand or medicinal influence. Right,
(04:39):
So now I kind of want totalk to talk about your background to listeners,
how you got into music therapy.So you started off your college journey
with kind of little interest in school, taking a break from school, but
then you actually proceeded to go tothree different schools. You attended music School
in la you went to Berkeley inBoston for percussion, and then finally what
(05:04):
made you want to get a master'sin psychology after that? Were you trying
to get away from the path ofmusic or did you want to incorporate psychology
into music? Psychology has always beenan interest in mine. But I was
eighteen year old graduate, seventeen yearold graduate, and I grew up in
(05:25):
a military family, so we movedall the time. So once I graduated
high school barely, I applied toa school in Maryland and got in and
quickly agreed that I should leave.After a couple of semesters of partying.
Then I got kind of lost andwent to a community college to shore up
some basic requirements. But I neededto get back into school, into music,
(05:49):
so I went out to la topit graduated from there, and then
followed a teacher to Boston to graduatethere. And my mom was influential on
that as well. She told meto always have a backup plan, and
I didn't like that, but itwas a good idea and I ended up
loving it. So I finished atUniversity of Maryland, Baltimore County and got
(06:13):
the psychology papers there psychology requirements there. So during the course of that program,
is that when you realized that youcould also make a career in music
therapy or where it mostly focused onjust straight psychology. Feel at that point,
well, that was tricky because musictherapy is very very new, very
(06:39):
very new to be accepted. Ishould say it's been around for a while,
but people are just now accepting it. And in school it was kind
of a people kind of looked atit like not a real thing, but
I really felt like it could dosomething because music has such a profound effect,
had such a profound effect on meas well as my brother, so
I was very excited to see whatcould become of that, And upon moving
(07:02):
to Nashville, it was really abouta decade behind with music therapy, so
I had to really search hard toget any kind of position down here.
Nashville and the South in general isreally caught up and really embraced music therapy
now is seen by the musicians oncall program They're just thriving here as well
(07:23):
as a bunch of music therapists aredoing really really well end programs I believe
in the local colleges now as well. So it's wonderful to see that,
and it's really solidified the fact thatI can make a career outside of performing
and recording doing something that I loveequally. Yeah, and I definitely want
to touch on the history of musictherapy in just a minute. But so,
(07:46):
since it was kind of new inNashville and people weren't really doing those
kind of programs, what did yourfirst experience with music therapy look like?
Was it working in a hospital orjust finding clients who wanted to do music
therapy professionally? It really started downhere. I did a lot of interns
(08:09):
up north, but down here Ihad to sell myself, so I started
with advertising as a drum teacher andpercussion teacher for children with special needs or
challenges, and from there I workedwith the parents and the families and explained
to them how beneficial could be ifwe incorporated some music therapy exercises and I
educated them and it worked each time. Sub State Honors Therapy clients for years
(08:35):
and some moved to different fields,but it really helped push that and it
was coincidentally at the same time thatdown here in the South, or Tennessee
specifically, was really embracing it.So it was a very good coincidence for
me. Yeah, and I thinkthat's so special to be part of something
in Nashville that wasn't already well establishedyet. Yes, it surely was not.
(09:03):
And then so to go back tothe history of music therapy, so
the actual idea and practice of musictherapy actually goes back hundreds even thousands of
years, but actual light wasn't reallyshown onto music therapy to the public,
I'd say, until the American MusicTherapy Association was formed in nineteen ninety eight,
(09:26):
and Musicians on Call actually formed aroundthat time as well. They started
in New York, but it didn'treally become popular nationwide or in Nashville until
twenty tens. And also with mesaying the American Music Therapy Association was formed
in nineteen ninety eight, I'd alsosay that music therapy in general, I
(09:48):
guess didn't really take off in nationwideuntil twenty tens. Like you said,
a music therapy major that was recentlycreated at Belmont around twenty fifteen. So
yeah, music therapy wasn't really aprogram in music schools until just recently.
(10:11):
So why do you personally think thatis? Like, why is music therapy
still such a new option, Iguess for a career when the idea around
it has been out there for hundredsof years. I think there's multiple reasons.
Psychology has always been considered a verysoft science. It's labeled as soft
(10:33):
science and not so much now,But if you look in all the historical
books of medicine, psychology was alwaysdownplayed. And I think to add into
psychology something that's even more new,and some people would say artsy and hippyish
is even hard for the mainstream towrap their head around. My parents had
(10:56):
a little problem with it at first, understanding what it was but they quickly
after seeing some of the results.They were very impressed and seeing some studies,
and my father's very much an academicand he did his research on it
and really fell in love with theidea as well, the fact that you
can help so many people without divinginto drugs as the first step. I'm
not saying they don't help sometimes manytimes, but if you can go around
(11:20):
that and retrain the brain to lookat the world a different way, it's
far more effective and far more longterm. Yeah, And to go off
that, a lot of these kidsand people with special needs can't really do
therapy in the form of talking.Some of them just don't want to talk
(11:41):
or they're not able. So sometimesa form of art like drawing or playing
music can just be so much moretherapeutic for them instead of talking very much.
So, yeah, art therapy isequally powerful for many many patients or
clients. I focus mine on percussionbecause it's such a head on, an
(12:01):
instant gratification instrument. You don't needto play a chord, you don't need
to sing in tune, and it'sfun. And so I get these boys
and girls to get into these exercisesand they eat them up. Very rarely,
I've had one that after they giveit a go, that they don't
really want to try the various exercisesthat we're doing. A lot of times
(12:24):
in music therapy, singing is involved, and as Sarah can tell you,
I'm not the strongest singer in thecity, but you try so sometimes I
do have to sing with the kids, and they get a good laugh out
of it because it's always off key, but it really does also get them
involved. And once you get aclient involved in their own therapy, not
(12:48):
just listening to a therapist or whathave you, it really takes on a
whole new level. It becomes afun time. So they get excited to
come see mister k Or. Manyof the kids I work with can't pronounce
my last name, so I'll justsay mister k or coach k or Andrew,
and they really have a lot offun. And the forty five minutes
(13:11):
to an hour session we have reallyflies by, but you really do see
results. So I really urge anybodywho's into music and into psychology, even
if you're not fully into music butinto psychology and therapy, to research this
field. It is a wonderful fieldto be in. It's very gratifying for
(13:33):
you as well as them, andit's enjoyable and not a whole lot of
fields nowadays are enjoyable to do.And what would you say are some of
the most memorable results you've seen.I know you can't really talk into specifics
about clients, but if you couldmaybe just talk about some instances where you've
(13:54):
seen a client grow from start tofinish ship the therapy and it's how it
just made them grow in their ownjourney. We've had clients that were just
frozen with stress and it could beon anything, whether it be a social
(14:15):
interaction with someone of the opposite sex, someone older, or someone younger.
But whatever the case may be,that day, it would lock them up.
It would immobilize them literally. Andpeople can say that's all in your
mind, Well, of course itis, but that's what you have to
work on. So it took awhile and much redirection and alternating between four
(14:37):
or five different types. And thatclient is someone who will always have some
type of anxiety issues but is ableto function in society now, which was
almost something that parents were giving upon. And the kind of drugs that
were prescribed are very effective but they'realso very muty for much of what a
(15:01):
young person needs to see and feeland experience as they grow, it almost
numbs them too much, and inthat case it could be very strong deficit
to their growth. And so wouldthey need to have a continuous, I
guess relationship with music therapy so theydon't regress, not necessarily, but usually
(15:26):
they want to whether they take onthe music themselves. They take music classes
and look at it from their ownpoint of view, like this client is
old enough now that they're doing itpretty much themselves. Now they've done years
and they know when the stress isgetting to a certain level, and they
know whether they play an instrument dosome of the exercises that were left with
(15:48):
them. Fortunately, this was thebest case scenario and it worked out really,
really well, and I'm hoping continuing. So they usually just play with
hand percussion. Do they ever playwith full drum sets? Usually not.
We'll bring out snares and toms andbut mainly you'll see the gembas and talking
drums, and you know, thewados and the fun hand percussion instruments that
(16:12):
make all kind of crazy cool soundsthat we can sometimes play a group sometimes
just to use keywords and hit anote to redirect. Sometimes we'll play a
track of music and we'll play alongto it, even if it doesn't sound
good. It's not about how wellit sounds. It's how the kids are
(16:33):
feeling. And it works well.And would you say music therapy was mostly
invented for people of special needs anddisabilities, or how would it work for
the public in general? I wouldsay clinically, you know DSM or whatever
authority you use, and would saythat, But I don't believe that to
(16:55):
be so. I think people havealways known the effect on music of music
on everybody. On whether you're listeningto your car going to work or whatever.
You know the effect it has onyou, and you choose a specific
type of music depending on your specificmood at that time. If you focus
the skills that I was fortunate enoughto get through schooling, including that with
(17:17):
music and a very specific client's challenges, it really can help long term.
And we look at the music thatwe listen to and it does affect us
long term. This is done ina clinical setting, even though it doesn't
feel like a clinical setting because youdon't have someone sitting on the stereotypical couch
talking to you and giving you medicine. This is a hands on every time
(17:40):
we play, we talk, welaugh, cry, and unfortunately for them,
we sing. And it is atotal immersive experience that revolves around music
and them being one hundred percent partof it equally as much as I am.
And that I think is a lotdifferent than other types of therapy,
right, And I think that's alsokind of the defining point for music therapy
(18:06):
there. As you stated, it'smore in a clinical setting. You have
a psychology background, so you takenotes based on how the client is doing
and how they're progressing with each session. So it is kind of like a
form of psychology and therapy, justin a different form. Yes, very
(18:29):
much so. And the really excitingthing about this being such a young field
is that, you know, atfirst people are like, you know,
we can use music therapy for peoplewith depression or normal level anxiety, and
that could be very bad, butnormal level to debilitating anxiety. And now
we're seeing with schizophrenic patients, whichis already a hot topic. Their responses
(18:53):
have been very, very positive withmusic therapy. Now there's a lot of
more work to do and a lotmore years of that work to prove anything,
So I'm not saying that it isdoing that, but the fact that
they're getting positive results immediately from patientsthat have been diagnosed as schizophrenic is absolutely
amazing, and I think that issomething really interesting that we'll see in the
(19:18):
future, and we'll see it morein the news, and it'll be thought
of more as a real science.It is a real science, but thought
of it more in the public asa real science, just like regular psychotherapy
is very very accepted now, whichis wonderful, so to will this.
So I guess to that point,what would you say your hopes are for
(19:41):
the future of music therapy and whathas music therapy taught you in your own
career. I love seeing the progressof music therapy field. Now you know.
I went to I guess it wasabout AH eight. I went to
a Music Therapy Association convention in DCand it was overwhelming because it was about
(20:02):
a thousand music therapists there and everybodywas playing and drumming and singing, and
I was blown away by how manypeople were there. But it really just
inspired me to really dive deeper intoit from my own profession, from an
actual professional standpoint, and seeing collegesup north already embrace It wasn't new to
me, but hearing that Belmont,you know, one of the most prestigious
(20:26):
private schools down here, embrace itis a wonderful, wonderful thing. I
because that school is amazing. Sothey will draw more people into a town
like this to not just follow theirdreams, so being the next Taylor Swift,
but also being the next music therapistthat changes the world, whether it
(20:47):
be a professor or a music therapistactive. So that is my hope,
and I think it's come into fruitionvery very quickly. Yeah, yeah,
especially when Nashville is becoming so saturatedwith music. I think it's just important
for musicians to realize, like maybethey can use their talents in another way
to help people and for people tohear their music or in a healing way.
(21:12):
So I think it's important to getinvolved with music therapy if you're a
musician and want to volunteer your time. And then on the other hand,
there might be people listening who havekids with special needs or know someone who
needs this kind of therapy. Sowhat would you suggest for anyone who's looking
(21:34):
for music therapy? Can they contactyou. Does it have to be through
a school, You can contact me. I would look up the AMTA,
the American Music Therapy Association, andthey have a list of chapters that are
local that might be even an easierway, or you can contact me,
but either one of those is great. Plus schools now will have they should
(21:56):
have a link up like Belmont probablyalready does since they have a program,
they would have multiple music therapists onstaff, so it would also check out
that. And if you are notaround the national area, tons of schools
up North Berkeley, Maryland, otherschools have so many amazing programs and amazing
(22:18):
resources for you to get involved andgive it a try, even if you
know someone shuns it a little bit. And there's still friends of mine that
when I talk about music therapy,they really don't know what it is,
and it's just what the world isright now. People are slowly learning.
But I highly recommend if you thinkit could benefit you, a family member,
a friend, whatever the case maybe, give it a try.
(22:41):
You will be impressed, have nodoubt. And I think it's more important
for music therapy to be one hundredpercent in person since it's such a hands
on therapy rather than over zoom rightone percent? Yeah, you want to
do this in person because if you'resinging with someone on zoom, that's not
as effective when you're doing this specifictype of exercise or drumming or whatever the
(23:04):
instrument or tours you're using. Soplease do it in person if possible.
Yes, and you also teach drumlessons. So where could someone contact you
for either music therapy or drum lessons? Would it be your email? Instagram?
What would you recommend? All theabove? My email Drew drums one
(23:26):
at Gmail, Instagram, Andrew koklubone And you can reach me at any
of those either of those. I'malways accessible, so please contact me if
you have any questions about music therapyabout drum lessons. I music therapy has
helped me become a far more effectiveteacher. I believe because everybody comes into
(23:47):
music for different reasons, and everybodyknows if you are a musician, you
know, we all are a littlebit different and music really helps us thrive
in this world. So I believethat music therapy, studies and practices really
helped me become a highly i'm sorry, a much more effective teacher than I
would have been had an to studythis absolutely, and if you're a musician
(24:11):
listening who is not licensed in musictherapy but wants to get involved with helping
people with music, you can signup to volunteer with Musicians on Call through
Musicians on Call dot org. Theyhave multiple hospitals across the nation you can
volunteer at play for patients, andyou can also get involved with playing at
(24:36):
local nursing homes, other hospitals andprograms. I think even homeless shelters.
Music. It can just be sohealing and medicinal to all, no matter
what form it is. And pleaseget in touch with the Musicians on Call
if you have any interest or timeto do it. It is an amazing
(24:57):
organization. They do incredible work,incredible volunteering, and the patients that they
play for benefits so greatly. Itwill blow you away how amazing the impact
is of music. Yes, yeah, and I want to come back and
do an episode, hopefully interviewing someonefrom Musicians on Call to talk more about
(25:18):
that in the future, but fornow, thank you Andrew so much for
being on the podcast today. Iappreciate it. It was wonderful time.
Hi. My name is Sarah Harrilson, and you are listening to the second
season of my podcast, Mind YourMusic Business. Thank you so much everyone
for the support of season one andtuning in today. So today's a fun
episode because it's the first in person, live interview of the show. Usually
my other interviews are over zoom withthe guest, and today's episode is in
(00:32):
person because I actually live with today'sguest on the podcast. I'm not just
having him on because we're in arelationship, but I think his field of
work is a great topic to bringmore awareness in the music industry, and
I just want to talk about musictherapy today. So I think music therapy
is a very important topic to talkabout because I think this part of music
(00:58):
and part of the music industry issometimes often overlooked and undervalued. So before
we talk about the background of AndrewKugler, who is here with us today,
can you just start by defining whatmusic therapy is for us, because
(01:19):
I think there can be some confusionas to what music therapy actually is.
We know music can be very therapeuticand healing, but for instance, I'm
a volunteer with Musicians on Call providingmusic to the bedsides of hospital patients.
But it's not considered music therapy asI'm not a licensed music therapist, So
(01:41):
please define music therapy for us andlet us know what music therapy looks like
for you. Sure, sure,thank you for having me. I do
think what you do is music therapy. It's a different form. It's more
like musopathy, which is more ofa generic form of sounds that patients or
people you are playing for have areaction to the music. So I think
(02:01):
it's incredibly important, and I applaudyou for doing that, and anyone that
works in volunteers for that. It'sa wonderful, wonderful thing. Music therapy,
as defined, is the clinical andevidence based use of music interventions to
accomplish individualized goals with a therapeutic relationshipby a credentialed professional who has completed an
(02:23):
approved music therapy program. In regularterms, I work with primarily with children
with physical and or cognitive challenges,usually both, but sometimes it's either or,
And we do use music, primarilypercussion based, because drums is what
my focus has always been in music. The interesting thing about music therapy is
(02:46):
that it's often applied to clients withnot just physical or cognitive challenges, but
you'll see various schizophrenic patients to theextreme all the way to down syndrome,
aspergers, and even extreme stress responsesto everyday situations. The music really allows
(03:07):
the entire brain to be enacted.As everybody knows, music is one of
the most influential things on our brainand stimulates the entire part. It's not
the only thing, but it isone of the most important things, and
I think that's kind of the differencewith musicians on call. Obviously, our
volunteers are not licensed in music therapy, and that's one of the reasons we
(03:31):
can't say that it's music therapy,even though it feels like it is,
since we're providing healing to people whoare in hospital rooms. And then the
other thing, we don't really atthis time work or play music for people
as special needs. We're starting toget into behavioral health programs, but there's
(03:53):
so much extra training that we haveto do in order to be in a
room room with people who have extraneeds. So I think that might be
the difference. It is, andthere are serious limitations with music therapy as
well. It is not a cure. All it can help alleviate responses to
(04:15):
different situations. But if you havea client with bipolar one more so than
two, that is also a physicalchallenge to the body, to the brain.
Whereas music therapy can help them copewith different situations and deal with it,
you still have to have the psychotherapyand or medicinal influence. Right,
(04:39):
So now I kind of want totalk to talk about your background to listeners,
how you got into music therapy.So you started off your college journey
with kind of little interest in school, taking a break from school, but
then you actually proceeded to go tothree different schools. You attended music School
in la you went to Berkeley inBoston for percussion, and then finally what
(05:04):
made you want to get a master'sin psychology after that? Were you trying
to get away from the path ofmusic or did you want to incorporate psychology
into music? Psychology has always beenan interest in mine. But I was
eighteen year old graduate, seventeen yearold graduate, and I grew up in
(05:25):
a military family, so we movedall the time. So once I graduated
high school barely, I applied toa school in Maryland and got in and
quickly agreed that I should leave.After a couple of semesters of partying.
Then I got kind of lost andwent to a community college to shore up
some basic requirements. But I neededto get back into school, into music,
(05:49):
so I went out to la topit graduated from there, and then
followed a teacher to Boston to graduatethere. And my mom was influential on
that as well. She told meto always have a backup plan, and
I didn't like that, but itwas a good idea and I ended up
loving it. So I finished atUniversity of Maryland, Baltimore County and got
(06:13):
the psychology papers there psychology requirements there. So during the course of that program,
is that when you realized that youcould also make a career in music
therapy or where it mostly focused onjust straight psychology. Feel at that point,
well, that was tricky because musictherapy is very very new, very
(06:39):
very new to be accepted. Ishould say it's been around for a while,
but people are just now accepting it. And in school it was kind
of a people kind of looked atit like not a real thing, but
I really felt like it could dosomething because music has such a profound effect,
had such a profound effect on meas well as my brother, so
I was very excited to see whatcould become of that, And upon moving
(07:02):
to Nashville, it was really abouta decade behind with music therapy, so
I had to really search hard toget any kind of position down here.
Nashville and the South in general isreally caught up and really embraced music therapy
now is seen by the musicians oncall program They're just thriving here as well
(07:23):
as a bunch of music therapists aredoing really really well end programs I believe
in the local colleges now as well. So it's wonderful to see that,
and it's really solidified the fact thatI can make a career outside of performing
and recording doing something that I loveequally. Yeah, and I definitely want
to touch on the history of musictherapy in just a minute. But so,
(07:46):
since it was kind of new inNashville and people weren't really doing those
kind of programs, what did yourfirst experience with music therapy look like?
Was it working in a hospital orjust finding clients who wanted to do music
therapy professionally? It really started downhere. I did a lot of interns
(08:09):
up north, but down here Ihad to sell myself, so I started
with advertising as a drum teacher andpercussion teacher for children with special needs or
challenges, and from there I workedwith the parents and the families and explained
to them how beneficial could be ifwe incorporated some music therapy exercises and I
educated them and it worked each time. Sub State Honors Therapy clients for years
(08:35):
and some moved to different fields,but it really helped push that and it
was coincidentally at the same time thatdown here in the South, or Tennessee
specifically, was really embracing it.So it was a very good coincidence for
me. Yeah, and I thinkthat's so special to be part of something
in Nashville that wasn't already well establishedyet. Yes, it surely was not.
(09:03):
And then so to go back tothe history of music therapy, so
the actual idea and practice of musictherapy actually goes back hundreds even thousands of
years, but actual light wasn't reallyshown onto music therapy to the public,
I'd say, until the American MusicTherapy Association was formed in nineteen ninety eight,
(09:26):
and Musicians on Call actually formed aroundthat time as well. They started
in New York, but it didn'treally become popular nationwide or in Nashville until
twenty tens. And also with mesaying the American Music Therapy Association was formed
in nineteen ninety eight, I'd alsosay that music therapy in general, I
(09:48):
guess didn't really take off in nationwideuntil twenty tens. Like you said,
a music therapy major that was recentlycreated at Belmont around twenty fifteen. So
yeah, music therapy wasn't really aprogram in music schools until just recently.
(10:11):
So why do you personally think thatis? Like, why is music therapy
still such a new option, Iguess for a career when the idea around
it has been out there for hundredsof years. I think there's multiple reasons.
Psychology has always been considered a verysoft science. It's labeled as soft
(10:33):
science and not so much now,But if you look in all the historical
books of medicine, psychology was alwaysdownplayed. And I think to add into
psychology something that's even more new,and some people would say artsy and hippyish
is even hard for the mainstream towrap their head around. My parents had
(10:56):
a little problem with it at first, understanding what it was but they quickly
after seeing some of the results.They were very impressed and seeing some studies,
and my father's very much an academicand he did his research on it
and really fell in love with theidea as well, the fact that you
can help so many people without divinginto drugs as the first step. I'm
not saying they don't help sometimes manytimes, but if you can go around
(11:20):
that and retrain the brain to lookat the world a different way, it's
far more effective and far more longterm. Yeah, And to go off
that, a lot of these kidsand people with special needs can't really do
therapy in the form of talking.Some of them just don't want to talk
(11:41):
or they're not able. So sometimesa form of art like drawing or playing
music can just be so much moretherapeutic for them instead of talking very much.
So, yeah, art therapy isequally powerful for many many patients or
clients. I focus mine on percussionbecause it's such a head on, an
(12:01):
instant gratification instrument. You don't needto play a chord, you don't need
to sing in tune, and it'sfun. And so I get these boys
and girls to get into these exercisesand they eat them up. Very rarely,
I've had one that after they giveit a go, that they don't
really want to try the various exercisesthat we're doing. A lot of times
(12:24):
in music therapy, singing is involved, and as Sarah can tell you,
I'm not the strongest singer in thecity, but you try so sometimes I
do have to sing with the kids, and they get a good laugh out
of it because it's always off key, but it really does also get them
involved. And once you get aclient involved in their own therapy, not
(12:48):
just listening to a therapist or whathave you, it really takes on a
whole new level. It becomes afun time. So they get excited to
come see mister k Or. Manyof the kids I work with can't pronounce
my last name, so I'll justsay mister k or coach k or Andrew,
and they really have a lot offun. And the forty five minutes
(13:11):
to an hour session we have reallyflies by, but you really do see
results. So I really urge anybodywho's into music and into psychology, even
if you're not fully into music butinto psychology and therapy, to research this
field. It is a wonderful fieldto be in. It's very gratifying for
(13:33):
you as well as them, andit's enjoyable and not a whole lot of
fields nowadays are enjoyable to do.And what would you say are some of
the most memorable results you've seen.I know you can't really talk into specifics
about clients, but if you couldmaybe just talk about some instances where you've
(13:54):
seen a client grow from start tofinish ship the therapy and it's how it
just made them grow in their ownjourney. We've had clients that were just
frozen with stress and it could beon anything, whether it be a social
(14:15):
interaction with someone of the opposite sex, someone older, or someone younger.
But whatever the case may be,that day, it would lock them up.
It would immobilize them literally. Andpeople can say that's all in your
mind, Well, of course itis, but that's what you have to
work on. So it took awhile and much redirection and alternating between four
(14:37):
or five different types. And thatclient is someone who will always have some
type of anxiety issues but is ableto function in society now, which was
almost something that parents were giving upon. And the kind of drugs that
were prescribed are very effective but they'realso very muty for much of what a
(15:01):
young person needs to see and feeland experience as they grow, it almost
numbs them too much, and inthat case it could be very strong deficit
to their growth. And so wouldthey need to have a continuous, I
guess relationship with music therapy so theydon't regress, not necessarily, but usually
(15:26):
they want to whether they take onthe music themselves. They take music classes
and look at it from their ownpoint of view, like this client is
old enough now that they're doing itpretty much themselves. Now they've done years
and they know when the stress isgetting to a certain level, and they
know whether they play an instrument dosome of the exercises that were left with
(15:48):
them. Fortunately, this was thebest case scenario and it worked out really,
really well, and I'm hoping continuing. So they usually just play with
hand percussion. Do they ever playwith full drum sets? Usually not.
We'll bring out snares and toms andbut mainly you'll see the gembas and talking
drums, and you know, thewados and the fun hand percussion instruments that
(16:12):
make all kind of crazy cool soundsthat we can sometimes play a group sometimes
just to use keywords and hit anote to redirect. Sometimes we'll play a
track of music and we'll play alongto it, even if it doesn't sound
good. It's not about how wellit sounds. It's how the kids are
(16:33):
feeling. And it works well.And would you say music therapy was mostly
invented for people of special needs anddisabilities, or how would it work for
the public in general? I wouldsay clinically, you know DSM or whatever
authority you use, and would saythat, But I don't believe that to
(16:55):
be so. I think people havealways known the effect on music of music
on everybody. On whether you're listeningto your car going to work or whatever.
You know the effect it has onyou, and you choose a specific
type of music depending on your specificmood at that time. If you focus
the skills that I was fortunate enoughto get through schooling, including that with
(17:17):
music and a very specific client's challenges, it really can help long term.
And we look at the music thatwe listen to and it does affect us
long term. This is done ina clinical setting, even though it doesn't
feel like a clinical setting because youdon't have someone sitting on the stereotypical couch
talking to you and giving you medicine. This is a hands on every time
(17:40):
we play, we talk, welaugh, cry, and unfortunately for them,
we sing. And it is atotal immersive experience that revolves around music
and them being one hundred percent partof it equally as much as I am.
And that I think is a lotdifferent than other types of therapy,
right, And I think that's alsokind of the defining point for music therapy
(18:06):
there. As you stated, it'smore in a clinical setting. You have
a psychology background, so you takenotes based on how the client is doing
and how they're progressing with each session. So it is kind of like a
form of psychology and therapy, justin a different form. Yes, very
(18:29):
much so. And the really excitingthing about this being such a young field
is that, you know, atfirst people are like, you know,
we can use music therapy for peoplewith depression or normal level anxiety, and
that could be very bad, butnormal level to debilitating anxiety. And now
we're seeing with schizophrenic patients, whichis already a hot topic. Their responses
(18:53):
have been very, very positive withmusic therapy. Now there's a lot of
more work to do and a lotmore years of that work to prove anything,
So I'm not saying that it isdoing that, but the fact that
they're getting positive results immediately from patientsthat have been diagnosed as schizophrenic is absolutely
amazing, and I think that issomething really interesting that we'll see in the
(19:18):
future, and we'll see it morein the news, and it'll be thought
of more as a real science.It is a real science, but thought
of it more in the public asa real science, just like regular psychotherapy
is very very accepted now, whichis wonderful, so to will this.
So I guess to that point,what would you say your hopes are for
(19:41):
the future of music therapy and whathas music therapy taught you in your own
career. I love seeing the progressof music therapy field. Now you know.
I went to I guess it wasabout AH eight. I went to
a Music Therapy Association convention in DCand it was overwhelming because it was about
(20:02):
a thousand music therapists there and everybodywas playing and drumming and singing, and
I was blown away by how manypeople were there. But it really just
inspired me to really dive deeper intoit from my own profession, from an
actual professional standpoint, and seeing collegesup north already embrace It wasn't new to
me, but hearing that Belmont,you know, one of the most prestigious
(20:26):
private schools down here, embrace itis a wonderful, wonderful thing. I
because that school is amazing. Sothey will draw more people into a town
like this to not just follow theirdreams, so being the next Taylor Swift,
but also being the next music therapistthat changes the world, whether it
(20:47):
be a professor or a music therapistactive. So that is my hope,
and I think it's come into fruitionvery very quickly. Yeah, yeah,
especially when Nashville is becoming so saturatedwith music. I think it's just important
for musicians to realize, like maybethey can use their talents in another way
to help people and for people tohear their music or in a healing way.
(21:12):
So I think it's important to getinvolved with music therapy if you're a
musician and want to volunteer your time. And then on the other hand,
there might be people listening who havekids with special needs or know someone who
needs this kind of therapy. Sowhat would you suggest for anyone who's looking
(21:34):
for music therapy? Can they contactyou. Does it have to be through
a school, You can contact me. I would look up the AMTA,
the American Music Therapy Association, andthey have a list of chapters that are
local that might be even an easierway, or you can contact me,
but either one of those is great. Plus schools now will have they should
(21:56):
have a link up like Belmont probablyalready does since they have a program,
they would have multiple music therapists onstaff, so it would also check out
that. And if you are notaround the national area, tons of schools
up North Berkeley, Maryland, otherschools have so many amazing programs and amazing
(22:18):
resources for you to get involved andgive it a try, even if you
know someone shuns it a little bit. And there's still friends of mine that
when I talk about music therapy,they really don't know what it is,
and it's just what the world isright now. People are slowly learning.
But I highly recommend if you thinkit could benefit you, a family member,
a friend, whatever the case maybe, give it a try.
(22:41):
You will be impressed, have nodoubt. And I think it's more important
for music therapy to be one hundredpercent in person since it's such a hands
on therapy rather than over zoom rightone percent? Yeah, you want to
do this in person because if you'resinging with someone on zoom, that's not
as effective when you're doing this specifictype of exercise or drumming or whatever the
(23:04):
instrument or tours you're using. Soplease do it in person if possible.
Yes, and you also teach drumlessons. So where could someone contact you
for either music therapy or drum lessons? Would it be your email? Instagram?
What would you recommend? All theabove? My email Drew drums one
(23:26):
at Gmail, Instagram, Andrew koklubone And you can reach me at any
of those either of those. I'malways accessible, so please contact me if
you have any questions about music therapyabout drum lessons. I music therapy has
helped me become a far more effectiveteacher. I believe because everybody comes into
(23:47):
music for different reasons, and everybodyknows if you are a musician, you
know, we all are a littlebit different and music really helps us thrive
in this world. So I believethat music therapy, studies and practices really
helped me become a highly i'm sorry, a much more effective teacher than I
would have been had an to studythis absolutely, and if you're a musician
(24:11):
listening who is not licensed in musictherapy but wants to get involved with helping
people with music, you can signup to volunteer with Musicians on Call through
Musicians on Call dot org. Theyhave multiple hospitals across the nation you can
volunteer at play for patients, andyou can also get involved with playing at
(24:36):
local nursing homes, other hospitals andprograms. I think even homeless shelters.
Music. It can just be sohealing and medicinal to all, no matter
what form it is. And pleaseget in touch with the Musicians on Call
if you have any interest or timeto do it. It is an amazing
(24:57):
organization. They do incredible work,incredible volunteering, and the patients that they
play for benefits so greatly. Itwill blow you away how amazing the impact
is of music. Yes, yeah, and I want to come back and
do an episode, hopefully interviewing someonefrom Musicians on Call to talk more about
(25:18):
that in the future, but fornow, thank you Andrew so much for
being on the podcast today. Iappreciate it. It was wonderful time.
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