#99 Congrats, You’re the Leader Now: How to Show Up, Not Just Step Up

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Welcome to Mindset Mastery Moments, the best growth
mindset podcast recognized bymillion podcasts and ranked as a
top mindset podcast by Feedspot.
We're proud to be in the top 1%on ListenNotes.
Join Dr.
Alyssa White as we explorepowerful insights and strategies

(00:24):
to elevate your mindset.
Let's dive in.
Congrats, you're a leader now.
How

SPEAKER_02 (00:31):
to show up, not just step up.
What every new leader needs toknow.
Today, we are going into amassive conversation,
disruptors.
Welcome back to another episodeof Mindset Mastery Moments.
Have you ever gotten a promotionand feel like everyone's
cheering, but on the insideyou're thinking, uh, what did I

(00:53):
just walk into?
Well, today's episode is for thenewly promoted, the soon to be
promoted, and honestly, theleaders who were promoted years
ago, but never got the supportthey needed to truly grow into
the role.
My guest today knows thatfeeling oh so well.
He went from working part-timeduring college to overseeing

(01:14):
over 200,000.
I didn't say 200.
I said 200,000 employees as thevice president of operations at
UPS.
And he did not just climb.
He led.
Now he pours that wisdom into atimely and very practical book
called Congrats, you've beenpromoted.

(01:36):
He's a board member, a mentor, amulti-award winning leader, and
a fierce advocate forvalue-based leadership.
Ladies and gentlemen, here atthe Mindset Mastery Moments
podcast, all over the globe, weare welcoming the incredible Mr.
Noel Massey to the show.
Mr.
Noel, welcome to Mindset MasteryMoments.

(01:58):
We're so happy to have you.

SPEAKER_01 (02:00):
Well, Dr.
White, thanks for having me.
I'm really excited to be on yourshow with you and your listeners
today.
And, you know, hopefully overthe next few minutes, we can
give them something that theycan use in their lives, whether
it be personal or professionalfor building a success.

SPEAKER_02 (02:19):
Absolutely.
I know we will.
I love your book.
I love the title when I firstsee it.
I was like, yes, duh.
It said, congrats, you've beenpromoted.
And I'm like, yeah, isn't thatwhat everybody wants in some
area of their life, whether it'sat a job in their life.
Some people want to go frombeing single to being married.
Some people want to go frombeing dating to everybody
seeking a promotion from havinga Toyota to driving a Tesla.

(02:43):
I don't know.
You pick a car, right?
So promotion is always what weall seek.
But before we dive into there, Ijust give the audience a little
bit about what you've done and alittle bit about where you've
been.
But in your own words, Mr.
Massey, tell us who you are,what you do, and why you do it.

SPEAKER_01 (03:01):
Well, thanks for that.
I won't make this too long, butI wrote this book.
That'll be a thing, right?
I wrote this book based,obviously, on a very long
journey in leadership through mylife.

SPEAKER_03 (03:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (03:15):
And when you hear my background, Yes, I did spend the
majority of my career at UPSover 40 years going from a
college student, employee.
Really, I began working there toget my degree candidly.
That was never the goal for mewas to stay because after my

(03:36):
college career was ending, I wasan electrical engineering
student at San Jose StateUniversity.
I was offered a job.
I had done an internship at IBMfor a year as a lab tech.
Hewlett Packard was recruitingme.
My older brother to this day isstill an electrical engineer.
But that being said, I sawmyself in that space.
But I have been at UPS for threeyears and I have been in a

(04:00):
supervisory capacity during thattime while I was paying for my
education.
And however, when I gave noticethat I was moving on to another
company, they put up a stop signand said, oh, wait a minute.
You know, we really love havingyou here.
We love what you're doing.
We'd like to promote you.
and make you a partner in thecompany, which is what happened
in 1980.

(04:20):
And I never looked back, youknow.
And I went from being afrontline supervisor, which I
still hold as the most formativetime in my life of leadership,
to being a manager with 400 or500 employees at that time, to a
division manager with managersunder me.
And then in the mid-'90s, I wentto Philadelphia and became the
COO for Eastern Pennsylvania andSouth Jersey.

(04:43):
And in 97, I was promoted to apresident's position.

SPEAKER_03 (04:47):
And

SPEAKER_01 (04:47):
as a president, I had five different business
units over that time fromChicago to Virginia to
California.
And I was about to sunset andmove on to other things at that
point.
You know, once I had achievedwhat I achieved, I was at that
point in my mid-50s.
But the COO and the CEO asked ifI'd stay.

(05:07):
And so that's when they wantedme to be the vice president of
U.S.
delivery operations for UPS.
And in that capacity, I wasguiding and steering our
strategy and tactics in ourday-to-day operation with 17
presidents I would work with andtheir teams throughout the U.S.
And the fact of the matter iswhat I saw was not something

(05:31):
new.
You know, baby boomers wereleaving and the mantle was being
handed over to the millennialsand the individuals are coming
into the workplace andDerailment happens within the
first two to three years forsomeone who's promoted into a
leadership capacity, their firstleadership capacity, that is.
And you don't take a highpotential person who has done
just a great job and just losethem, right?

(05:53):
You don't do that to just losethem.
So my book actually was athought I had really probably
about seven or eight yearsbefore I actually wrote the book
because I was the boardchairman, chairman of the board
for the Los Angeles Chamber ofCommerce, so my peer group, we
would talk to other presidents,general managers about the
challenges, and they always cameback to succession planning,

(06:17):
newly promoted people, and thehigh rate of turnover in that
space.
So my book was a directoutgrowth of that phenomena,
quite frankly.
And so that's what I decided todo, was to write this book,
which took over three years, anda lot of ideation, working with
a number of people, on theprofessional side.

(06:38):
And so finally, last month inJune, it was released.
There you have it.
Congrats.
You've been promoted.
Emerge.

SPEAKER_02 (06:46):
Yes, and congratulations on that.
It truly is a masterpiece.
I haven't finished it in itsentirety, but definitely had a
read, and it is solid.
It was well worth the threeyears, and I'm pretty sure that
was a remarkable journey for youas well.
Let's jump into the wholeconcept of promotions.
Most people, as I said earlier,usually see it as a win.

(07:08):
But you and I know, Mr.
Massey, that celebration comesright before that storm.
What made you decide this wasthe moment that you wanted to
write the book?
I mean, you started three yearsago, but you knew that you
needed to write this book.
What was your burning desire tobring this to the world?

SPEAKER_01 (07:26):
Well, there was a couple of things.
And, you know, number one, youknow, I look at life through the
lens of serving.
And I don't say that softly.
I say that very, very strongly,actually, that, you know, when
it's all said and done, Yourlife will be measured by what
you gave, not what you got.
And I have actually used thatfor the last 35 years when I'm

(07:49):
speaking on any level that, youknow, I heard this quote.
And this quote is actually notmine.
You know, I'm not going to takecredit for it.
It came from the founder of UPS,James E.
Casey.
I believe he was one of thegreat entrepreneurs in the
history of the United States.
He doesn't get that kind ofnotoriety because he was a very
humble man.
He was a very humble person.

(08:09):
Irish-American and, you know, toturn of the century, if you were
Irish, it was kind of a toughroad to hoe.
But Jim founded the company in1907 and having experienced a
tough life on the East Coast,you know, his father took him to
Seattle.
And at the age of 19, he foundedUPS.
But he was a very wise person.
He had a lot of quotes.
And one of my favorite is whatI'm about to share, and that is

(08:32):
you can't hope to get more thanyou give.
What does that even mean?
It means that it's universal.
If you don't put into somethingwhat is required to accomplish
that something, why should youget something out of it?
So think about it in a smalldimension.
You know, if you expect to growwealth, then you need to save.

(08:53):
If you don't save, don't expectto have that later.
If you have someone working foryou, If they come in as a
talent, that's what they are.
They're not fully developed.
You know, teams, I love usingsports teams as metaphors.
And the fact of the matter is,why do these teams, when they
bring new rookie players on,whether it's basketball or
football or hockey, it doesn'tmatter, they invest so heavily

(09:16):
in the development of thatperson.
Because they understand thatwithout that investment, they
won't get a return.
They understand that.
They understand thatdevelopment...
And investment in development isvery critical to success.
So I wrote this book with thatmindset for people that are

(09:36):
small business owners orpresidents.
It doesn't really matter.
You can be a donut shop or aFortune 50 company.
Here's something that happens,Dr.
White, in every business model.
From the small business model tothe Fortune 50 company,
someone's always gettingpromoted.
Someone's got to lead the frontline.
The flesh and bone of anorganization are the people on

(10:00):
the ground.
Yes.
Not in the C-suites I sat in,and I went from the bottom to
the C-suite.
They're not.
I could come up with thegreatest strategy ever.
But you know what?
Culture in an organization isbuilt at the top, but it's
executed at the bottom, okay?
And if you don't invest in yourteam with value-based
leadership, if you don'tintentionally lead them in the

(10:22):
way you would like them to be asmembers of your organization,
it's not going to happen.
Not going to happen.
So I wrote the book to givepeople something as a starting
point because it's not the endall be all.
I'll be the first to say that.
But foundationally, the base ofa home is a foundation.
Then you start putting up thewalls and the rest of it.
So you can't hope to get morethan you give.

(10:42):
It's intended to guide thereader to the narrative that you
need to take ownership, numberone, the newly promoted person
for your development because youown it.
And the business owner needs tohave congruence with you in
developing you.
And by both parties reading thebook, they gain congruence,
right?
And now we see it through thesame lens when you're talking

(11:04):
about value-based leadership.
So that was really the impetusin a longer fashion for the
book.

SPEAKER_02 (11:13):
Oh, my goodness.
I love it.
And that's what I love, thepracticality of the book to the
point where I know you do...
I know you're consulting withfirms or teams at this point,
right?
Or you're getting ready to,because that congruence with the
owner or the C-suite executivesand the people who get the work

(11:36):
done, there is such, it'ssiloed.
There's no accountability a lotof times.
I mean, you can't, I always, youknow, as a middle manager, the
only company I've made it to bea CEO of are the ones I own and
run.
over the years, whether it washere in the U.S.
or in South America, where I'mfrom.

(11:57):
But I made it to seniormanagement and a lot of middle
management.
And so I am the translator andthe facilitator a lot of times
of what I call chaos.

SPEAKER_01 (12:11):
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
That's what happens.

SPEAKER_02 (12:13):
And as dynamic as I want to be invested in myself,
growing as a leader, My handswere strapped, but I knew
better, so I did better tocreate some level of cushion for
both sides.
It just felt like sides too manyof the times, but that
congruence is so very wellneeded, and that value, and what
I hear a lot of, and this iswhere I would love for you to

(12:36):
stress on, or you give usfeedback on, is what are your
thoughts about strategy when itcomes to operations?
Because this is your wheelhouseright here.
What would you describe atemplate that is very simple for
any level of operations in anysuccessful organization where

(13:00):
that congruence is present?

SPEAKER_01 (13:04):
Well, I think what you just said, I could talk
about that for a long time.
But when you're in a supplychain environment, I have to use
You know, that's probably one ofthe best examples to use in any
event because it's spontaneous,it's unpredictable.
You know, the one thing I wouldsay when I would do a talk at a
conference is the one thingabout a supply chain is it's

(13:27):
invisible to people, but it'slike the oxygen in the room.
If the oxygen in the roomdisappeared, okay, you would
choke.
Well, if the supply chainstopped, If no trains move
tomorrow, no over-the-roadtractor trailers, no aircraft,
nothing.
If nothing moved, thensupermarkets wouldn't have food

(13:49):
in them.
Retail outlets wouldn't haveproducts to sell.
On and on and on and on.
The supply chain is the oxygenof the economy.
And when you get disruptions inthat, when you get disruptions
in that, hurricanes, floods, andwe've seen Recently, examples of
this.
We had to be so focused on ourpeople understanding execution

(14:12):
of the plan.
What are we going to do?
How are we going to do it?
And all the time, if the peoplewho are going to execute the
plan don't understand The planis going to fail.
Involving your people in thedesign work.
And I talk about this in thebook a little bit.
Yeah.
I give an example of a managerand it was during a hurricane.

(14:33):
And he was doing what he wassupposed to do.
The organization has sent downall of these orders and
parameters, blah, blah, blah.
And he was going to administerthem.
And I just happened to beattending his meeting.
And he immediately identifiedthat there was a problem.
Because you can always see aproblem.
The signs will show up.
People will roll their eyes.
They'll start shaking theirheads in disagreement.

(14:54):
It might not be vocal.
And this manager was astuteenough to go, whoa, wait a
minute, wait a minute.
You know, I already see there'ssome issue here.
And so he called on a personwith like 30 years or so.
And the person stood up andsaid, we've been through the
hurricane too.
Okay.
I had a tough time getting towork today.
And you have this, thisoperational change where we need

(15:17):
to come in an hour early.
Well, you know, We can't just dothat.
And so he said, you know what?
You're right.
I need to take a step back.
We have an objective toaccomplish.
Hospitals are dependent on us.
Nursing homes, life-savingsituations are out there.
So I'd like the five volunteer,employee volunteers to help
design the plans we're going touse.

(15:38):
They did that.
And the next day, they deliveredthat information to the team.
It was over, you know, 100employees.
And it went like clockwork,right?
Because here's the fundamentaltruth.
When you talk about operationalexecution, people support the
things they help to create.
It's just a natural law.
When people take on, whenthey're involved in the creation

(15:59):
of something, I mean, it's goingto go Way better than if you
just handed it to them.
And if you're an organization,you know what you want.
I don't care if you make donuts.
You want to be able to put outthe best donut possible.
So if you involve your people inthe process, they're just going
to do it better for you.
And the other thing I would say,Dr.
White, is the way that I wouldarticulate that so that there

(16:22):
was always congruence between meand the organization components
I was responsible for, is Iwould say this to the
presidents, to the mid-managersand to the people on the floor.
Keep the line straight.
This is how we're going tooperate, team.
We have procedures and we havepolicies and we're not going to

(16:43):
be making stuff up.
When drama happens andhurricanes are happening and
floods are happening, everyoneneeds to follow all the
protocols that keep people safe,that keep people out of harm's
way.
We're not going to be makingstuff up.
If you have a great idea, bringit to the table so we can ideate
that thing out and we mayincorporate it into how we're

(17:05):
going to get it done, but keepthe line straight.
And that's about the processside of the position.
And then finally, there's goingto be a little bit long-winded
on this.
Oh, no.

SPEAKER_02 (17:14):
You're giving us so much value.

SPEAKER_01 (17:16):
This is very important.
Yes.
There is no procedure in anoperating room or in a supply
chain company or in amanufacturing environment where
someone hasn't created theprocess, right?
Here's how we're going todevelop X.
When this is working perfectlyfor us, it looks like this.

(17:38):
And the one thing that's reallyimportant is that everyone has
congruence on what that is.
Like, what is the proper way todo this?
Keep the lines straight.
And so when everyone knows thatthis A, B, C, D, that's the
correct way, right?
Not A, F, G, Y.
Because you see that go on.

(17:59):
People love shortcuts.
And the only thing a shortcutever does is it shortcuts the
person's opportunity to beexcellent.
That's what a shortcut is.
It never shortcuts the quality.
I mean, it just hurts thatstuff.
So when intentional leadershipis on the table, and you're the

(18:19):
leader, you're the businessowner, and you talk to your
people in normal language, yougo, okay, team, just keep the
line straight.
Okay, team.
And we didn't talk about thevalues part of this, but this is
concurrent with that.
In the book, I talk about theneed for leaders and business
owners to intentionallyarticulate the values of the

(18:40):
organization.

SPEAKER_02 (18:41):
Come on.

SPEAKER_01 (18:42):
Don't assume your people all know we're going to
have integrity.
You say to your team on someregular basis, when the
opportunity is there, you alwayssay it, that in our business,
we're going to have a long day.
We're going to have a hard day.
We're going to have some reallytough days, some exhausting
days.
But here's the day we're neverhaving, team, the one that has

(19:02):
no integrity in it.
We're never having a day whereintegrity has left the room.
We're always having integrity.
Listen, team, we're going toalways have ethical days.
We're never having a day wherewe're unethical to anybody,
anyhow, anytime.
Ethical behavior means honorableconduct towards others.
Understand, before we...

(19:22):
compromise any part of thosethings we give the benefit of
the doubt to the client but wewill never have a day where they
believe we've been unethical oracted without integrity it's not
happening when the leader issaying that stuff

SPEAKER_02 (19:37):
come on now

SPEAKER_01 (19:38):
is there normal language not because we're
having a meeting and somethingwent wrong that's reactive
behavior right now see that youwent And we coach Dr.
White in the John MaxwellTheater, right?
Which is a value-basedenvironment.
I'm a Stephen Covey fan.
And Stephen Covey talks about inThe Seven Habits of Highly

(19:59):
Effective People, the firsthabit is being proactive, not
reactive, being proactive,right?
So the book is really intendedto connect values with tactics,
right?
And intentionally, and I can'tsay that word enough,
intentional.
intentional.
You know, if your listeners getanything from me in this

(20:21):
episode, I want to reinforcethat you need to be intentional
in your leadership environment.
Don't be assumptive ever.
Don't ever assume because youhave integrity, your people are
going to just have it.
Don't work like that.
I read this statistic and it'sin the book.
40% of employees in the UnitedStates believe at some point

(20:42):
they have been asked to behaveunethically.

SPEAKER_03 (20:46):
20%.
That part.

SPEAKER_02 (20:50):
Exactly, exactly.
I know I've been asked, andthat's where I have a problem
because I refuse.
Only because I would rather beable to go to sleep at night
than to keep a paycheck.
That is just who I was raised tobe, right?

SPEAKER_03 (21:08):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (21:09):
But there have been times too, even though I've been
raised to be that way, and thatis my own personal value, that I
was asked to be and movedquickly and didn't realize it
was until after because ithappened so naturally for the
one who's over me and it'sactually embedded in the fabric

(21:30):
of our operational system andprocedure.

SPEAKER_01 (21:34):
That's right.
And I talk about that as wellbecause you talk about having
been in that situation.
Most young leaders will findthemselves in that place at some
point.
And so I give some coachingwithin the book because
leadership is coaching.
Leadership is the ability toinfluence the behavior of a

(21:56):
group or an individual withoutcoercion.
And I want to really reinforcethat without coercion.
The minute you introducecoercion to get a group or an
individual to do something, youhave left the role of you are
using coercion.
That is not leadership.
Now, having said that, mostleaders will find themselves in

(22:17):
a situation that's questionable.
And this is what, and my son, Ihave a son, one's a doctor, he's
32, the other one's a behavioraltherapist, he's 30.
And when they were growing up asyoung children, and now they're
young men, old men, you know,they would say, this is the one
thing if I said, hey guys, ifthere's any question, they would

(22:37):
respond to me, dad, there's noquestion.
If there's any doubt, there's nodoubt, okay?
If you're not comfortable, don'tdo it, okay?
If you find yourself in asituation where you're being,
and I tell a story in the bookabout an individual named
Russell.
It's named in the book, so I'llsay it.
And Russell came to me, and it'sa fictitious name, but he came

(23:00):
to me and he had a dilemma inthat way, and I gave him some
counsel on it.
And I said, Russell, here's whatI'd like you to do.
Go back to this person, yourboss, and you say, let's review
that policy.
Is something changed?
Show it to me in black andwhite.
I'd like to see it in writing.
Let's review your request, whatyou just asked of me.

(23:21):
And if it's, if that doesn'twork and the person won't, then
you get others in the boat, butyou never ever go it alone.
You, because here's what happenswhen there's a trial and they
say that someone lackedintegrity or was unethical and
you were the person thatcommitted it.
And you're never going to beable to say, well, my boss said,
do it not going to happen.

(23:42):
Okay.
It doesn't work like that.
So if there's any question,there's no question.
Get other people in the boat.
Let them know that you are notcomfortable when you are not
comfortable.

SPEAKER_03 (23:51):
That's

SPEAKER_01 (23:52):
right.
And get clarity andclarification on any procedure
or policy.
Someone is changing on the spotor asking you to do differently.
Because the person that ownsyour integrity is you.
No one else owns it.
Just you.
And the only person that cangive it away is you.
not someone else.
And it's the crown jewel of allthe value of components and

(24:16):
equations.
It's your, and I tell the storyabout the crown jewels in the
book and how they're protected24 seven.
Well, your integrity is yoursand you need to protect it 24
seven and never, ever allowsomeone to steal it from you
because you're going to run intothat.
It's going to happen because itjust does in your normal course
of life.

SPEAKER_02 (24:36):
It does.
Wonderful.
Quick follow-up question.
What would you say to that youngleader or that leader overall
who is doing and practicing whatyou trained your sons to do?
What I found, and so forperspective, is that when you
are the person who is like,they're saying this unethical,

(24:59):
giving you guidance that lacksintegrity.
They just lack integrity.
Maybe not widely sometimes, butsomewhat to a degree, you know,
there's a degree there.
And so they're, you know,bringing this to you.
And when you do the proceduresthat you advise your sons to do,
and you're getting pushback,you're getting earmarked,

(25:21):
there's a level of retaliation.
And I would say scapegoat-ism,not a word, but I made it up.

SPEAKER_03 (25:29):
How

SPEAKER_02 (25:29):
would you advise that young leader?
Because what I've seen happen isthey end up on the outside of,
whatever culture, because ifsomeone is leading and they're
getting away with it, let's sayhe'll join a new organization or
you just got promoted todepartment.
And that's what the day, right?
You're in a spot now whereyou're like, this is where, you

(25:52):
know, your book comes to life sowell, because it's like, now,
what did I just step into?
Right.
Because there, now you, you, youhad a happy time when you
weren't, when you were downthere.
at the grassroots, just doingthat.
Now you're senior leadership.
And these people suck.
They don't have integrity.
And right on the door in front,it says integrity, but they
don't have integrity.

(26:12):
And so you're pulling out, youknow, what you guided your sons
to do.
Because believe it or not, a lotof people who just love to serve
and want to lead and grow, theyhave this heart where they want
to be integrists and they wantto serve and do right.
But then this culture comes andthey're like, well, that's how
we do it.
Like, what's your, literally,what's your problem?
You know?

(26:33):
How do you advise that person totake on their career?
I mean, for me, I'm just goingto say it.
I'm out.
Deuces.
At 45, I can't stay there.
Once I try to help, I can't.
But they got to stay becausethey got a family to take care
of.
How do you advise them?

SPEAKER_01 (26:50):
Well, first and foremost, and I mentioned this a
little bit earlier, I mentorabout a half a dozen under 40
individuals currently.
And that's about the rotation Itypically have.
But in any event, this has comeup naturally with them.
But this is what I'll say beyondthat, and then I'll get to that
in a minute.

(27:10):
People quit people.
They don't quit companies.
People quit people.
They don't quit companies.
And sometimes you have to quitthe person to maintain who you
are and what you're about,especially when it comes to your
values.
I'm not being idealistic.
I'm being realistic.
I'm not being idealistic.

(27:30):
And small business owners ismuch more likely to have leaders
with poor leadership skills whenit comes to small business
owners and entrepreneurship in acorporation.
It happens in corporations,obviously.
The point is, is that a personwho runs a business that
constantly pushes people intoareas they're uncomfortable with

(27:54):
will fail.
I used to meet with 100 to 150small business owners a year
when I was a president.
I mean, literally 200 or lesspeople.
Yeah, I met with the biggies.
I met with the multinationalsand the large organizations as a
senior sponsor, executivesponsor for those accounts.
Healthcare, the big healthcareorganizations in the country

(28:16):
that we serve.
I'd go meet with the presidentof their supply chain and
sometimes the president of thecompany, depending on what it
was.
But I also met, with 100 to 150small business owners.
People with 10 people, 11people, 12 people.
And inevitably, when I woulddeal with them, we'd talk about
economics and how the world wasgoing and how we were doing for

(28:39):
them.
But the conversation wouldalways migrate towards business
matters.
And we would talk aboutleadership.
50, 60% of the time, I'd say tothe business owner, because I'd
have a relationship with them,let me walk your floor.
and talk to your people forabout half hour.
I'd go do that.
And my questions to thoseindividuals would be, tell me

(29:03):
what the most important thingsare to the person that owns this
company, to you.
Give them to me.
And then I'd go do that.
Then I'd sit down with thebusiness owner and go, I want
you to write down five thingsyou believe your people feel are
the most important.
They almost never matched.
And they weren't about values.
They were always about sales andrevenue and profit.

(29:24):
And I would say to this youngleader, I'd say, well, let me
help you with something.
The businesses that I seesucceed, the businesses I see
thrive, businesses that arehighly valued, that their people
believe in being ethical,customer-focused, and they have
integrity.
I met with the founder ofZappos.

SPEAKER_03 (29:44):
Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 (29:46):
I remember Tony Hsieh, he's back.
But the reason Zappos grew,Zappos was an anomaly in many
respects.
But in the 2007-08 financialArmageddon we went through,
there was a financial crash forthose two that were too young to
remember this.
There was a financial crash.
They could look it up.

(30:06):
And everyone's retail salesdropped like a rock.
Amazon, Costco.
Even Costco, right?
Everybody dropped like a stone.
UPS, our daily shipments fell20%.
There was only one company stillgrowing, and they sold shoes,
okay?
Are you kidding me?
They were selling food.
They were selling women's shoes.

(30:27):
And the reason is because theirservice and the values they had
around serving were congruentbetween Tony and his people.
And That's what mattered tothem.
Not the money, but just beinggreat and having their customers
feel great.

(30:47):
Here's what doesn't work.
You can't have employees whofeel poorly and deliver great
service.
Doesn't work.
You can't have employees youtreat with no dignity.
They give dignity as a feelingto your clients.
Doesn't work like that.
I don't care if it's a plumbingcompany, electrician company,
water heater company.

(31:08):
Doesn't matter.
If the employees feel bad, theywill not do great things.
And as a leader, what do youwant your people to do?
I mean, the math is the math.
And so where leaders get introuble the most, and now I
understand, you told yourlisteners, I had a couple
hundred thousand people I had toguide on a daily basis.

(31:29):
And they were under 17presidents and the whole
structure and I had operationmanagers and the whole deal.
They were the ones who needed meto support their development.
That's what they needed.
They needed me to support them,to treat them in a way that
included them in solutions.
If we wanted great outcomes,that's just a natural law.

(31:52):
So what isn't appropriate, and Iwould have to have this
discussion every now and thenwith a CFO or a CIO or whatever,
is what's not appropriate inthis moment is your ego.
Dumb is healthy.
It builds confidence.
I get all that.
But when you think you areexpected to have all the
answers, the only person kiddingthemselves is you, right?

(32:15):
And know what you don't know.
Here's what you don't know.
Everything.
No one knows everything.

SPEAKER_02 (32:20):
Exactly.
I love that.
Oh, my gosh.
I feel like, and first of all, Iknow I'm going to be listening
to this episode a hundred times,and I'm going to have my notepad
out.
The book wasn't great enough.
And then I feel like I want tosit down and have you and I talk
about this.
I want that for a podcast.
I could take a day.
There's so much more we couldadd in there.

(32:41):
That is so, so powerful.
I mean, there was just so manymic drop moments that we had
here.
Gosh, I can't wait to see eventhe clips.
They're just going to belighting up our social media
feeds.
Now, Mr.
Massey, you've seen inside ofleadership at the highest levels
and you've seen people fallflat, stepping up.

(33:02):
Why do you think so many leadersfeel lost once they get that
title?
Why do you feel they feel lost?
What's the cause of this?

SPEAKER_01 (33:09):
To me, it's easy.
They're focusing on the wrongthings.
That's what they're doing.
They're focusing on the wrongthings.
They're focusing on, instead ofbeing excellent at being the CFO
or the HR director or themid-level manager, they're too
focused on pleasing the bossabove them.
And that's always wrong.

(33:29):
I didn't expect I had a staffreporting.
I didn't expect them to come towork saying, let me please know
today.
Okay.
I expected them to come to workand be the best CFO, best
engineering leader, bestdepartment of maintenance,
engineering leader as possible.
And to come to me for counsel,coaching and a relationship.

(33:50):
And so on a daily basis, I wouldcoach, but my role was to be a
coach, like any leader orbusiness owners, number one,
leadership, It's coaching.
When

SPEAKER_02 (33:59):
you get it.
When you're a leader that getsit, it is.

SPEAKER_01 (34:02):
Yeah.
So when I would drive into workand I'd be driving into Los
Angeles, you know, my commutewould be an hour and a half or
whatever it was.
I would have a conversation witha leader pretty much daily and
it would be their time.
So I'd call Dr.
White, your director of humanresources.
You know, what's on your mind?

(34:22):
I know things are moving fastevery day and we don't get
private time.
And, you know, what's on yourmind?
And then, and then, you know,you tell me what was on your
mind.
I go, so who are you developingthis week?
Not what you're developing.
I don't want to hear about whatyou're developing.
Oh, no.
Give me the name of the personthat you are working with to get
them better.
Tell me what that's about.

(34:43):
And you tell me what that wasabout.
And I go, so, okay.
So how are you feeling aboutthat?
I mean, you know, what do youthink?
How do you feel?
You know, did you try this ordid you, you know, but the point
was is the toughest part.
thing for senior leaders at thetop is it really is lonely at
the top.
And getting feedback is onlygoing to happen if they invite
that feedback.

(35:05):
And so I always had a group ofsenior leaders around me that
I'd say, hey, you know, you'renot on this team to be giving me
nonsense, okay?
What I want to know, any timeyou think I need some feedback,
I want you to provide thatfeedback.
And of course, these wereleaders that I had a lot of
respect for and every personshould have those people around

(35:28):
them.
I don't care if it's a, if yourun an electrical company and
you have a couple ofelectricians have been with you
for a long time and they'redoing a great job, you need to
invite them to give youfeedback.
You need to invite them to letyou know when the lines are
crooked, right?
You want to know that you don'twant to know the lines are
crooked because five people quitor, You know, people are

(35:50):
disgruntled about some policychange.
It's going to happen.
But the point is, always putyourself in a position to know
what you don't know.
Always do that.
But I would spend time on thephone, planned time, not
spontaneous time, with Dr.
White.
We're going to talk on Thursday.

(36:11):
You know, putting your headtogether, what you want to talk
to me about.
You know, whatever it is.
But I felt my role was thecoach.
the individual on how leadershipshould feel, taste, and look,
not on the metrics or thespreadsheets.
I mean, we're going to talkabout the metrics and the
spreadsheets anyway.

SPEAKER_03 (36:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (36:31):
You know, there's no way around that stuff.
But what doesn't get discussedare the behavioral things.
And let me just say, this isn'tidealism.
And this isn't copybook.
And anyone out there listeningthat thinks it is, you don't get
it.
Okay?
If you want your business, youdon't get it.
If you want high-performancebusiness, no matter what you do,
that you need people to feellike they want to provide you

(36:54):
high performance because theyhave your back as their leader.
They appreciate what you do forthem and you appreciate what
they do for you.
It is a symbiosis there.
Doesn't mean it lacksaccountability.
Doesn't mean people can get awaywith stuff that's wrong.
It means anything but that.
You want clean transparencybetween you and the people

(37:15):
you're leading.
whether you're a newly promotedleader or the CEO, doesn't
matter.

SPEAKER_02 (37:22):
Whoa.
Oh my gosh.
I love it.
I love it.
It's anything, but it really iswhen that level of what I would
say, it's a level it's, it'sprofessional collective
intimacy, but it doesn't lackaccountability.
It's almost like I have a good,solid growth conversation with

(37:43):
my, my employees or mysubordinates whatever you refer
them to you're going to losethem but a husband and wife are
intimate but they still holdeach other accountable that's
the only way that relationshiplasts and they have operational
procedures in that household andin that family they have
boundaries they have eachindividual have gifts and

(38:04):
talents and roles they'reresponsible for in that union
same thing at work and i go backand forth with And some people,
it's like, man, you just madethat sound so simple.
I'm like, I never said it wassimple.
I was saying it straightforward.
Simple is relative.
But this is this and this isthat.

(38:25):
I love that.
So you talk a lot about.
you know, a lot of companiespromote people based on
performance, but give zero prepon people leadership.
What's the long-term cost to anorganization when they skip the
development phase?
Because let's just face it, youmentioned it just a few moments
ago that they get into thereason why they suffer.

(38:47):
It's because they're focused onpleasing the boss.
They feel in, well, I'm indebtedto him only because they're good
at what they do.
It doesn't make them a leaderunless they're prepped for it.
So tell us what that is.

SPEAKER_01 (39:01):
You know, in the book I talk about, you know, you
hit on a couple of things.
I want to, I don't want to getpast, but you touched on a
couple of things that are veryimportant.
And the book talks about theterms and conditions of
value-based leadership.

SPEAKER_02 (39:16):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (39:17):
Everyone has terms and conditions.
Yes.
In all relationships, Theyexist.
Business, personal, and theyhave to be intentionally
articulated.
So if I were to say, Dr.
Wright, what are the bare bonesterms and conditions that must
exist in a relationship you havewith someone?
Give me five things, and you canput down respect, listening,

(39:39):
loyalty, you know, what thoseare.
And when those get violated, youknow what happens?
Relationship fractures.
Yes.
So when the terms and conditionsare clear and stated, Things
just go better.
Things just go better.
You know, when I say, hey, oneof the terms and conditions in a
relationship is when you believeI'm off course.

(40:01):
Stop me.
Let me know I'm off course.
Don't let a mole become amountain.
A mole will become a mountain.
That's one of the terms andconditions you and I congruently
agree upon.
Business owners and people needto understand those exist with
people.
And you need to identify them.
And you need to speak them.

(40:22):
And you need to allow people tounderstand those very important
values.
And you talked about it inmarriages with kids.
It's everywhere.
And so the whole intent of thatphrase in the book is to get the
listener or the reader, excuseme, and your listeners to
understand that establishing theterms and conditions in the very

(40:42):
beginning of a relationship arecritical.
And you think about the firsttime you met your partner's
parents or you applied forcredit.
You wanted your best footforward.
And when I say a leader, thatit's the same thing when you
meet your team.
You need to behave when you meetyour team, like you're meeting
the parents or your spouse, oryou're applying for credit.
Introduce yourself to them.

(41:02):
Sit down with them.
Get to know each other.
It's important to get the termsand conditions set in the very
beginning.
The fact of the matter is, it'snot going to be perfect.
I actually talk about when I hadimperfect moments, you know, and
why later as I grew through mycareer, I had fewer of those to

(41:23):
none of those, right?
You know, and that's just wisdomwith time and growth.
But that goes to the very rootof us as human beings in nature.
Mistakes will happen.
But what's more important thanthe mistake is admitting it, is
admitting it.
And sitting down and letting theperson know professionally that

(41:43):
you are aware of it and being ina position to let them know that
they have your word.
And this is important.
They have your word that youwill consciously be aware of not
allowing that to occur again.
Because once people have nodoubt of your intentions and
your integrity, they will besurprisingly strong in their

(42:05):
support for you.

SPEAKER_02 (42:06):
Absolutely.
That's it.
It's just boom, boom, boom,boom, boom.
I want to literally drop my mic.
You talk a lot about trust.
It's such an important piece.
Not just earning it, butmanaging it.
That's so, so key.
How does it build trust whenthey're still figuring things
out for themselves?

SPEAKER_01 (42:25):
Trust is a different kind of skill.
In the book, I talk aboutfairness.
I talk about trust.
I talk about listening.
Is listening a skill?
Is it a value?
I want the reader to ponder thatbecause it's

SPEAKER_03 (42:39):
both.

SPEAKER_01 (42:39):
You don't listen to people you don't value.
And so I want them to put thattogether, right?
So that they understand thatthey have to value all of their
team members when that personhas something to say.
You know, you put the phonedown, you look them in the eye
when they go, hey, can I have aminute?
You're a leader.
You're always supposed to beable to give your people a
minute, all right?

(43:00):
But in any event, and I giveexamples of where that goes awry
when you don't do it.
But when you talk about Theleader and the leader's ability
to build trust.
Trust is something that happensover a period of time, but it's
based on one really importantcriteria.
And I'll get to that.
You know, if we met and you go,well, Dr.

(43:21):
White, do you trust Noel?
She'll say, well, I don't know.
You know, I don't distrust him.
Noel, do you trust Dr.
White?
Well, I don't know her.
I don't distrust her.
So that's the baseline.
But over time, we're going tointeract.
Things are going to happen.
And here's what's important.
that you learn that I am aperson of my word, okay, of my
word.
And I have to say that.

(43:42):
I have to say that to the team.
Listen, team, you have my wordthat when something matters to
you, I will listen to you.
And then something happens.
And then a person comes andsays, hey, my check's wrong,
blah, blah, blah, whatever.
No, can you follow up?
I'm missing a day's pay.
Sure, I'll follow up on yourcheck.
And here's the thing.
I will follow up on that.

(44:03):
And stuff goes on and I don'tfollow up on it.
And then you come to work thenext day and I didn't follow up
on it because I got too busy.
Right.
Okay.
What I can't do is let you cometo me and say, did you follow
up?
What I have to do is say, hey,when the person comes in, come
see me.

SPEAKER_03 (44:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (44:20):
And they come see me.
And I go, hey, listen, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah.
An emergency happened.
I wasn't able to follow up onthat yesterday.
And I know you need to get paid.
You have my word.
Today?
Yes.
It's about getting this fixed.
And when your people know thatyou're willing to commit your
word, even in the worstcircumstances, matter of fact,

(44:41):
to give you more credit in theworst circumstances, then that's
how you build trust.
When you don't break your wordon the things you agree to do
for them, when you give theminformation that's accurate and
you don't allow misinformationto permeate, that's how you
develop trust with your team.
Distrust emerges when there's anabsence of that.

(45:03):
Say that again.
Distrust emerges when there's anabsence of that.
Right.
You have to intentionally stateit to the group, you know, that
this matters.
We have to be able to trust eachother.
So you're going to get my word.
But when you tell me as a groupor an individual that you're
going to do something, I needyour word.
You're going to do that.

SPEAKER_03 (45:26):
That is powerful.
Well, I just wish that worked atUPS with me.

SPEAKER_02 (45:32):
Oh, my goodness.
And that is why I'm sopassionate about serving
leaders.
There's a whole, there's someother episodes that we've had
that goes back into the makingof a leader, sort of, because a
lot of times we talk about theseparation of work-life, you
know, and you leave your homestuff and don't bring it to

(45:54):
work.
And I feel like that is...
I'm going to love having youcome in on this before we get
into flip the script.
Because you don't, people, youdon't leave your work stuff and
your home stuff where theybelong.
You just can't because it's you.
That's right.
Everything in life mirrors you.
So a lot of people...
Like the way you raise yourboys, those values.
I mean, I'm sure they'reincredible leaders.

(46:16):
Of course, they're going to haveto figure things out on their
own as they get into this real,as they've been getting into
this real world.
But they had those foundationallessons that now they can apply.
They're like, oh, this is whydad said this.
Oh, my God.
I'm so glad I knew that becauseI could have been like John.
Thank God I didn't end up downthat path because I made that

(46:37):
one choice.
Thank God.
Thank you, dad.
Thank God.
And thank dad, you know.
So tell me about that work-lifebalance when it comes to being
that leader, because, you know,why do leaders lead poorly is
the question.
What is the making of a leaderthat leads poorly, and what is
the making of a leader thatexcels in leadership?

SPEAKER_01 (46:59):
Well, you're talking about an area that goes to the
very nature of a business beingable to retain its talent, grow
its talent, and care about allof that, right?
Because here's, you said italready, you know, and it's one
of the, it can be one of themost destructive aspects of
business, any business.
When you fail to recognize thatcultivating your people, making

(47:25):
sure that they're fresh, makingsure they're clear headed,
looking for the signs of stress.

SPEAKER_03 (47:31):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (47:31):
That's the role of the leader.
And if you don't want to grow agreat garden, then don't water
it.
Okay.
Don't do that.
If you want people to wither anddie, don't water them.
You are the leader.
You own that.
If your people are burning outand they're stressed all over
and they're quitting, go look inthe mirror.
It's not the circumstancesthey're in.

(47:53):
It's how they're being ledthrough them.
And again, I had to deal withnatural disasters all the time.
Fires, floods, hurricanes.
And we still had to operate.
And it was our responsibility tomake sure that 10,000 people
behaved properly.
Not just two people, right?
And the tone, and we used tocall it the tone from the top.

(48:14):
The tone from the top was goingto set the tone, period.
You know, the employees weren'tgoing to come to work and go,
what tone do we want to settoday?
That doesn't work like that.
And the other thing is, that'sright.
And the other thing is, leaveyour personal problems at home.
You're at work now.
Okay, that's a joke, right?
It's the biggest joke.

(48:35):
Yeah, it is.
If someone's children...
are having drama issues orsomeone just lost a child or the
spouse has cancer or the father,the elderly dad, there's
something going on.
You can't say you don't careabout that.
You just can't say and expectthem to be great for you.

(48:55):
It just doesn't work like that.
And I'm not saying the role ofthe leader or any leader is to
be a social worker because it'snot.
At the end of the day, if youdon't see the signs and if you
don't Address the signs.
You know what it means?
You know what it means about youas a leader?
It means you don't care aboutthem because you don't care
about them.
And if you don't care about thesigns, your people won't care

(49:16):
about your signs as anorganization.
It's a symbiosis, right?
It's not being a social worker,but it is knowing that I have
employees who are going to worktwo or three hours a day
overtime.
Okay.
I need to be in a position whereDavid's father is, is now in
hospice.

(49:37):
You know, he's his primarycaregiver.
You know, he'll come in and do agreat job for the organization.
But overtime is probably notwhat he wants right now.
And he'll come and say, hey, canyou cut my overtime?
That has to be listened to.

SPEAKER_03 (49:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (49:52):
That has to be listened to.

SPEAKER_03 (49:53):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (49:54):
And the fact of the matter is, if you want David to
stay a great employee for 10,20, 30 years, then every time
there's drama in his life, likehis dad in a hospice, you need
to pay attention to that.
And I had that obviously happenhundreds of times in a 40 year
career with individuals.
And I'm glad to say that whenthat happened for people, they

(50:17):
felt comfortable saying that tome, whether they were a tractor
trailer driver or a CFO and itmade everything better.
And we were all better as aresult of it when it was all
said and done, but people don't,have the ability to have all
these multi-personalities andbehaviors that, oh, I'm just
going to leave.
You know, I'm going to be in adowntrodden way, but I'm not

(50:40):
going to show that at theworkplace.
It's going to show up.

SPEAKER_03 (50:43):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (50:44):
And you need to be able to have sensitivity and
identify it to minimize theimpact of it on the workplace.

SPEAKER_02 (50:52):
Exactly.
Let me tell you, Mr.
Newell, I have this red flaghere.
Anytime I have someoneinterviewing with me and they
tell me that they leave theirstuff at home, they don't bring
their stuff to work.
I'm like, you know, jokingly onan interview one time, I said,

(51:13):
does that mean you stay at hometoo?
They're looking at me like,what's wrong with this lady?
And I'm like, well, here's thething, my dear.
One of the things we recognizeis that you are a human first.
then you're more than likely,you know, you said you're
married, right?
You're a wife and a mother andsometimes an auntie and uncle.

(51:36):
You're all those roles.
And this is not a role here thatyou're applying for.

SPEAKER_03 (51:40):
That's right.
That's

SPEAKER_02 (51:42):
right.
We understand that all of youmatters for all of you.
And when there is, when thingsare off the rail in any part of
your life, whether you areconsciously aware of it or not,
it will affect you.
not only how you function, buthow our team functions.
So we don't want to be in yourbusiness.
That's not what I'm saying.

(52:03):
But understand, we would likefor you to experience a safe
place where if today you're notmentally able, physically able,
or just for even an hour youneed to check out, you want to
come to us and let us know.
And I mean it.
I mean, because it's sometimesthis would might not be the job

(52:24):
for you during this phase ofyour life.
If you might lose a dog and forfive weeks you can't function.
I am not to judge, but I wouldlove to support you and make
sure that we keep the operationsgoing.
When I say support you, thatmight be, we might not have a
job.
You might get a severance.
I don't know what I'm justsaying.
Right.

(52:45):
Because if I know I can help, ifI don't know, I think you're
just missing work, you're notresponsible, you're not
accountable.
If you're not communicating,whatever steps need to be taken,
feel comfortable that you can goto HR, you can come to us as
your direct report.
That's right.
Without even disclosing, juststate what you need and allow us

(53:06):
to legally and within theconfines of what our regulations
are, guide you.

SPEAKER_03 (53:12):
Yeah, no doubt.

SPEAKER_02 (53:13):
That's it, right?
Because again, like you said,it's not social work.
I remember being a middlemanager, one of the seniors
saying, but Dr.
Elisa, we are not a socialservice agency.
I'm like, first of all, you're agovernment nonprofit.
I didn't say this, but in myhead, because I have to think
now because my mouth, right?

(53:33):
This is a government nonprofitwhere you're serving people
People who are in low-incomesituations, because you're
offering a free program that isvalued at almost$12,000 to
people who qualify.
What do you mean?
It doesn't get more socialservice even that.
Right?

(53:54):
So you have to not necessarilybe a social service agent, but
you have to be able to respondwith compassion and facilitate
and create a way of movingpeople along if we cannot serve
them, but do so with compassion.

SPEAKER_01 (54:11):
Well, no doubt.
The silliness of circumstanceslike that, if I can be just
straightforward about it, isthat when you put yourself in
the other person's shoes, right?
And you look at how that isworking for them.
If you were in their shoes, isthat what you would want to
receive?
And generally speaking, thatsolves a lot of it then, but not

(54:35):
always because proximity isimportant to problems, right?
So when people don't haveproximity, they can become very,
very much a victim of theostrich effect when they stick
their head in the sand.
And the role of the leader is,is to handle all things, not
some things.
It's to pull a person's head outof the sand, including their own
if necessary, you know, bygetting proper feedback.

(54:57):
The point of the matter is thatthe role of leaders is to make
things better, period.
It's not to run a self-servicedorganization, a self where
people just kind of just floataround and it is what it is and
let's just hope we pick theright people through the front
door and it all works in tandem.

(55:18):
No.
It takes work.
You want a great organization?
You want to create a greatorganization like so many
entrepreneurs and thoughtleaders have?
You need to do the work.
And that means you're going todo the work developing your
team.
That's what it means.
It doesn't mean any more or lessthan that, whether it's a
nonprofit.
I mean, I'm the board chairman.
I was a board chairman for theLos Angeles Urban League for

(55:41):
nine years as a chair.
That's not a chairmanship.
That's for the faint of heart.
Those are tough positions.
I was on the United Way board.
I sit on the Annenbergfoundation today, chapter one us
today with young children andliteracy, and you're going to
run into bumps and all of thatstuff.
Right.
But leadership is really aboutwhat it is.

(56:02):
It's about leading.
It's about accepting theresponsibility of the things
coming at you and always doingit with a way that is intended
to make people People betterbecause when people get better,
things get better.
When people get better at whatthey do, things get better.
They're not independent.

(56:23):
They're not independent.
When people get better andthey're developed, things get
better.
And too many leaders don't getthat.
And they start looking atspreadsheets and bottom lines
and sales and everything.
you know, whatever it is, orthey want to, you know, delegate
their leadership responsibilityaway and, and be, and that's
irresponsible leadership.
And so all the things you justtalked about go there, you know,

(56:44):
as I listened to you and that'sexactly where they go.
But the way out of that startswith taking ownership, ownership
for all of it, taking ownershipfor all, when your people fail,
you fail when they're noteffective, you're ineffective
and put an ownership on.
Like you look at Nick Saban, youlook at bill Belichick, You
think they went and didn't takeownership for the results of

(57:06):
their teams?
I mean, are you kidding me?
Yes, they took ownership.
They took total ownership.
They didn't get up there andblame people and blame this.
No, it starts with that.
You take ownership first.
Then you develop your team.
And then you operate with thehighest level of ethics and
integrity throughout that.

SPEAKER_02 (57:24):
Yes, absolutely.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
We've busted through so muchtoday.
Whoa.
I can't believe the time went byso quickly.
You're going to have to comeback for another episode.
We got to talk some more.

SPEAKER_01 (57:39):
I'd be happy to.

SPEAKER_02 (57:41):
Flip the script is where we get with our guests and
get real about a moment whenthey had to shift their own
mindset to get out of their ownway or maybe just to move
forward in life.
So my question for you, Mr.
Massey, was there...
Every time in your journey,maybe as a leader or even
personally, when you had to stopdoing what worked before and

(58:03):
completely shift how you wereshowing up, what changed in that
moment and how did it affect howyou lead today?

SPEAKER_01 (58:11):
Actually, that goes to the importance of mentors.
You have to have mentors.
You know, even Michael Jordanhad a coach, all right?
Even Tom Brady had a coach,okay?
And when people think thatthey're above that, Dr.
White, that's when they get introuble because we all are going
to have a moment where a mentoror a coach who's giving us

(58:33):
feedback unabated is going tohelp us course correct in a
moment or in a situation, right?
Because, you know, I've hadgreat mentors.
You know, if you were to say,you know, Noel, the things
you're saying, what you'velearned, like where did that all
come from?
It came from mentors.
I mean, candidly.
I've had great mentors andmentors of all different

(58:56):
persuasions, male, female.
And the one thing I tell menteesis, you know, having someone
mentor you who looks like youisn't always the best mentor.
You know, I won, was awarded.
I want to say that differentlybecause I'm very proud of it.
But I was

SPEAKER_02 (59:13):
awarded the

SPEAKER_01 (59:15):
National Alliance of Women Business Owners Man of the
Year Award, right?
from my engagement in mentoringfemale business owners and
promoting women in theworkplace, right?
And the fact of the matter isthat I would not just mentor men
is the point of that.
I would mentor women as well.
I had female mentors, okay?

(59:38):
And I had male mentors.
The reason you have a mentor isbecause you admire what they do.
They're successful, right?
If you want to learn how to begreat at anything, you go and
find people who are great atthat thing.
And they look and come from whatthey come from, right?
There's no one size fits allnarrative around that.

(59:59):
But too often people don't speakmentors out, number one.
And you should always say, well,I really admire how this person
is doing X.
You know, let me have a cup ofcoffee with them.
And, you know, it doesn't needto be this formal process, but,
you know, it's about the mentee,you know, taking initiative with
the mentor, right?
But I had great mentors.
And so when I had a couple ofmoments to the point that you're

(01:00:23):
bringing up where I was probablyoffline a little bit in my
leadership journey.
And I had a mentor one time.
He said the most profound thingto me.
You know, his name's Jim.
I won't use his last name, buthis name's Jim.
We talk still to this day.
And I was in this situation andit was this massive snowstorm,
three feet of snow.
Supply chain was just crushed.

(01:00:45):
It was in December.
our heaviest season of the yearand things were going fabulously
well.
Our plan was going, our peoplewere doing really, really well.
Then we got three, we got shutdown and we had newspapers on
the front porch.
We had hospitals calling.
We had emergency situationsgoing on.
It was incredibly, it wasincredibly noisy.

(01:01:10):
And so in the process ofhandling it, and I'm talking to
him on the phone because at thattime he was my boss.
I'm talking to Jim on the phoneand he goes, whoa, no, let me
just lay something out for you.
And I was at a really advancedportion of my career.
My late 40s actually.
And he goes, let me just pointsomething out for you.

(01:01:32):
He says, this is a classicsituation where you don't get to
be human.
That's what he said to me.
He goes, there's times for aleader when your emotions have
no place in the moment.
Your professional behavior does.
You don't get to be human.
You have to push those emotionsdown.
I know you're disappointed thatthings all of a sudden fell

(01:01:55):
apart because of three feet ofsnow, and you guys are doing so
great, and everything was beingexecuted at the highest level,
and now it seems like it's allout the window.
Well, you ain't supposed to behappy about that, all right?
And that worked.
But this is the moment.
Yes.
Yes.

(01:02:26):
But that's an example of asituation that was also a
learning narrative to answer tothe question you just asked.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:35):
It's a solid one.
I had a guest on a few monthsago, and she talked about stoic
empathy as a leader.
And I love that she put thattogether so well.
And that's what he was teachingyou.
it's, you know, as leaders,we're often confronted, like, I
remember COVID, like, that's, Ihad another level.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:56):
Absolutely.
Perfect example.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:58):
Right?
Yes.
We had to, we had to be able tolead with heart and compassion,
but like you said, keep thatstraight line.
Yes.
At the same time.
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:10):
I

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:10):
hate to almost say the S word, but crap was falling
apart everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:16):
That's right.
You know, and the people whowere told they were essential
workers, We're being exposed tothe disease.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:22):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:22):
And now early in the process, there weren't masks,
right?
There weren't proper equipment.
And it was as any situationcould be.
It was as intense as that couldpossibly be for leaders and
employees.
No doubt.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:42):
And as a leader, it was, you had to be empathetic.
You had to keep the straightline.
Sometimes you were scared andyou were falling apart.
And I remember sharing with her.
I said, my thing is I listened.
I opened up before we even startwork.
Cause we were working remotelyfor a course.
My team came together.
We came together at seven in themorning and we would start our

(01:04:04):
day.
And we had like a good 30minutes where everybody would
share.
And it was a check-in.
How are you feeling?
Before we went into what are wegoing to do today and how we're
going to...
Because we were learning whatwe're going to do in the virtual
space and we were plotting andplanning.
But we had that.
And as a leader, I let enoughhang that says, you know what?

(01:04:25):
I'm scared, concerned.
This, my mom, she's still goingto work.
And I'm concerned because she isin her 60s.
However, I know that over time,we always...
find better ways to deal withthings and work through things.
And the fact that we have eachother and we're still here and

(01:04:45):
we have jobs, and we do.
When everybody talked aboutthings, we also did a
round-robin of what are wegrateful for today.
There were times they werestruggling, but I started off
because that was when breathstarted.
know people say i'm justgrateful i'm breathing and i'm
alive like that this is trueyeah and that statement was so

(01:05:09):
accurate and so when you starteveryone goes from there but i
couldn't let all my emotionshang out but i let some of it
and i also had to you know finda way to keep my team positive
motivated and then Because thiswas school.
I was working with educators andin an education arena.
So now I had parents.

(01:05:29):
And you know what I did?
I repeated the same system.
The parents, after that, soCOVID shut down, happened in
February that year, and Mayschool ended, and we had virtual
graduations.
And the parents wanted to keepcoming back to our Friday
conversations, like, Dr.
Wyatt, can we still keepmeeting?
And I'm like, Unfortunately,you're not part of this

(01:05:52):
organization anymore.
I can't have meetings

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:55):
with you.
Oh, my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:56):
You all, as a cohort that met each other, if you
want, you can exchangeinformation and you all can meet
on your own terms.
That's a great idea.
Good for you.
You can buy Zoom now.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:09):
good for you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:10):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:10):
Right.
Well, that's still like empathyand that leadership.
And just I love what your mentortaught you.
I know someone's going to grabahold of that.
One last thing.
You've gotten those awards.
You're a multi-award winner.
I mean, I was on your websiteand you didn't just get it.
Of course, that is a treasuredaward.
We just had at MM360, MindsetMastery 360.
That's our nonprofit that wefounded.

(01:06:33):
And we just did the Men ofMastery Legacy Awards.
And we're so happy to know you.
We're absolutely going to honoryou next year because you're
going to have some mentorshipwith me.
I know you will.
So we honored a man.
So you got that significant withso many others that, you know,
there was, I mean, I can't, Idon't remember, but there were
several.

(01:06:53):
But I want to ask you this.
What does success look like foryou?
What really matters to you now?

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:01):
When others are successful based on my support
and coaching of them, you know,you, and I mean that as
heartfelt as I can say is thatsuccess to me, you know, when
someone asked me about the book,they said, no, what would be
successful with this book?
I said, this book makes oneleader better.

(01:07:22):
That's a young leader and have asuccessful journey.
Then this book was successful.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:28):
Okay.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:29):
Period.
Right?
Because I've been in a role as apresident and before that, where
that was the key aspect of mybeing that was expected of me.
I wasn't doing the organizationa favor developing our people.
It was expected of me.
So it's something I've done fordecades and the book so far, the

(01:07:50):
comments I've gotten from youngleaders, mid managers that have
read this book, and it's onlybeen out seven weeks.
have been very touching, havebeen very humbling with the
individuals who've read the bookand said, you know, I had one
message come to me today, Dr.
White, from a guy.

(01:08:11):
He's in his late 50s, but heread the book and he said, I
bought a copy for all my sons.
He's got three sons.
He says, I sent a copy to myniece, who is a operations
director for DHL.
He says, you know, this book, Hesays, I can't say enough about
how this book is going to helpthem be better as leaders.

(01:08:33):
And so for me, success, that'ssuccess, period.
That's it.
End of story.
When someone said, and not justbecause of the book, but I mean,
in my life, my life is aboutserving and helping other
people.
That's what my life is about.
My life is about doing that.
It's about giving.
You can't hope to get more thanyou give.
My life is about doing that.

(01:08:55):
So, That's what success is forme at this juncture.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:00):
Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:01):
that's what really matters.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:03):
And I must applaud you more than any award.
What you're really doing issecuring a legacy, that of Noah
Massey.
And that for me is you, aftereverything you've done and as
successful as you have been, Itwill behoove anyone to say you
deserve to be at the beach everyday if that's what you want to

(01:09:24):
do down in the U.S., right?

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:26):
This is true.
You have

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:27):
started a whole new revolution.
And that is what I love.
You have taken all the wisdom,knowledge, misfires.
success, whatever we call it,and you've put it in a package
in this book that is now acatalyst for other leaders that
will come up to you.
So here's a question I have foryou.
What's your next evolution?

(01:09:48):
What's the next evolution forMr.
Newell?
You've led thousands, but what'sstill calling you higher today?
I

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:56):
think this will take promoting the book, working with
small companies is somethingthat I've been working with
small companies for a while now.
You know, I've been retired forfive years, but I have a number
of companies that are smaller,200 or less, let's say.

(01:10:17):
I'm a business owner, CEO,whatever, where I'm in a
coaching format with thoseindividuals.
I've been doing that for awhile.
And now that the book is out,I've been approached by a number
of people to do a day seminar,do a conference talk.
those kind of things.
And I'm going to do that.

(01:10:38):
And I'm going to, you know, forme, life is about giving and
it's about doing, right?
There's probably not a daythat's going to show up for me
where I'm not active that way,where I'm just, you know, I'll
be, I mean, I travel, you know,my wife and I have 35 years.
We travel, you know, my son, youknow, we hang out, you know, so
I'm living, I'm not, I'm notworking 80 hours a day on this.

(01:11:02):
No, I mean, a week on this, youknow, so I have a very, very,
fruitful, very positive, youknow, existence in that I'm able
to do what I want to do, whichis I can, you know, spend time
with my family in ways that areimportant to me, but I can also
spend time helping to developother people, which is also
important to me and thecommunity, you know, and the

(01:11:24):
community, you know, whatchapter one organization that we
focus on second grade literacyin urban communities.
Third grade literacy in urbancommunities because we know when
a child can read at the thirdgrade level when they're in the
third grade, no matter theireconomics, no matter their race,
no matter their religion, theygraduate high school in the 90

(01:11:47):
plus percent range.
And again, if they can't do thatin the third grade, when they're
in the third grade, no mattertheir economics, no matter their
race, no matter their religion,they drop out of high school at
a 45% clip.
And so I love working with thatorganization.
And we're in every major UScity, Canada, the UK, Australia,

(01:12:10):
and I'm the global chair forthat.
So I do a lot of communitynonprofit work, which really
fills me And I love doing that.
So I stay busy.
I'm busier.
You're doing it your way, butyou're staying busy.
When I was in my profession,yeah.
So it's

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:31):
all

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:31):
good.
Yeah.
It's all things I choose to do.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:33):
Yes.
And that's, I mean, that is thelife.
I mean, it's just funny.
A lot of us younger folk, wewant better now.
And there are ways to createthat.
in life now we have a little bitmore of those options now but
before we go we have thissegment called mindset bites to

(01:12:53):
go where i want where i want youto leave our listeners with a
bite they can carry into theirwork weight as they're listening
to this episode what's one truthone shift to one habit you wish
every new leader would practicefrom day to day no matter what
industry they're in.
I'm going to step away from themicrophone and you're going to

(01:13:15):
be here in camera by yourselfsharing that nugget with our
listeners and viewers.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:20):
Leaders, you're always being evaluated.
You chose leadership.
There was a position open to bea leader.
You raised your hand and yousaid, pick me.
And you accepted theresponsibility.
And you're always beingevaluated.
When you say, I want to be theleader, you have made a
professional decision.

(01:13:40):
There's no casual moments inleadership.
They don't exist.
Don't ever let anyone goad youinto thinking they do.
The people who are under you,when you're out in the public,
you could be in a mall.
When they see you walk by, theysay to their family, there's my
boss.
There's the owner of thebusiness I work for.

(01:14:00):
You're the leader.
And if they see you in publicand you're disheveled and you're
unkempt and you're the leader,That's their impression of you.
There's no casual moments inleadership.
Accepting the responsibility ofleadership means accepting it
completely and understanding ittotally.

(01:14:20):
So finally, just to say itagain, you're always being
evaluated.
What comes out of your mouthmatters.
Words matter.
That's a good thing.
It means when you talk aboutintegrity, words matter.
When you talk about ethics,words matter.
When you talk about honesty,words matter because there's no

(01:14:41):
casual moments in leadership.
You ask for the responsibility,accept it clearly.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:49):
That's so dynamic.
So dynamic.
Raised your hand.
I love, love, love, love that.
I love, love that.
So we are at the point whereeveryone wants to know how to
get their hands on a copy ofthis book.
and how to connect with you,whether they're looking for

(01:15:11):
mentorship or they just want totell you how transformational
you've been on this episode ofMindset Mastery Moments.
What's your favorite way toconnect?
Of course, we have it in thedescription wherever you're
watching and looking at this,but they want to know how you
would like for them to connectto you and get the copy of this
book.

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:27):
It's pretty easy to get with me.
My website, noelmassie.com,N-O-E-L-M-A-S-S-I-E.com.
And on there, you'll see myassistant's email, Kayla, K-A
Bozeman, B-O-Z-M-A-N, atgmail.com, arranging an

(01:15:47):
appointment with me.
It can be done with her,consultation, discussion.
Just email her.
On my website, there's a contactform, so you can contact me that
way.
You can also go to Barnes&Noble's website and buy the
book.
The book is distributed by Simon& Schuster.
And it was published by MissionDriven Press, an arm of Simon&

(01:16:10):
Schuster.
And also, obviously, on Amazon.
And it does come in an e-book aswell.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:16):
Yes, it does come in an e-book.
Yeah, and that's where I got mycopy.
I'm going to get an autographedcopy.

SPEAKER_03 (01:16:22):
You are.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:23):
So you all heard it here.
Congrats, you've been promoted.
www.noelmassey.com.
It's in the description and thecontact information as well.
So, Mr.
Noel, thank you so much.
This wasn't just...
about leadership.
You have given us a promotion inour mindset to lead, lead, lead

(01:16:43):
with integrity, takingownership.
and just leading, right?
This was legacy level wisdom.
We really, really appreciate it.
It's always titles open doors,but mindset determines what
happens once you walk throughit.
And you definitely have to shiftour mindset, Mr.
Noel.
To everyone listening, if youhave been promoted, about to be,

(01:17:06):
or you're leading in any space,do yourself and your team a
favor.
Grab a copy of this book andpromote yourself.
Start the promotion from within.
Because you know what?
I always say the money is at thetop and you know we got the
lesson today from the get-go hestarted saying if you don't put
in you can't take out above allthings keep mastering your

(01:17:26):
mindset think speak do becomeI'm Dr.
Lisa with my co-host Mr.
Noel Massey saying good nightgoodbye and have a good day
thank you Mr.
Massey

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:39):
thank you you're a great host

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Dr. Alisa Whyte

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