55: The Knoydart Gear Exchange

Firstly, apologies for the change in audio quality partway through the episode.

This episode is a little bit different, Richard was invited to go with Dave, Chris and Alistair for a multi-day hike on the Knoydart peninsula in Scotland. This peninsula on the West coast is surrounded by mountains, lochs and bogs. It is only accessible by boat, or by a 16-mile (26 km) walk through rough country, and the seven miles (11 km) of tarred road found in the small (population of 111) settlement of Inverie are not connected to the UK road system.

The plan for the trip was to travel in to the peninsula by ferry from Mallaig, and then walk back to the vehicle left there over the course of 3 days, carrying everything which they would need for the journey.

This recording is their after action report about the kit they took, decisions made and overall impressions.

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Episode Transcript

(00:07):
Hello everybody, and welcome to anotherepisode of Modern Outdoor Survival. And this
time we have slightly poor audio qualitythan normal because we're in a cottage somewhere
in the western Highlands of Scotland,and I didn't want to bring the whole
audio kit with me, so I'mafraid you're going to have to make do
with a combination of phones and asmall pocket recording device thing and sat around

(00:30):
the table with me. I havethree friends and we've just come back from
a place called Neudart, which isa peninsula which is about well, it's
an hour away from here to getto where the boat picks you up from,
and then it's another half hour onthe boat to the peninsula. It
is attached to the British mainland,but there are antony roads there and once

(00:51):
you leave the village where the boatdrops you off, I think it's another
twenty miles before you hit the nearestroad. So we went there for a
bit of an excursion, some stompingaround in the mountains. It was a
golden opportunity allowed by the gracious generosityof Dave, whose work managed to get

(01:15):
a holy cottage booked for the rightplace at the right time with some extra
days and we could use it asa base to move up from. And
then some things came together and weended up here. So in the spirit
of the podcast, I wanted totalk about or go through, some of
the things you learned from the trip, some of the decisions you made,
some of the kit you took,some of the root choices you made,

(01:38):
and what you think the audience canlearn from that, because I think,
as we say, a lot,you learn more from the mistakes really than
you do from the Fluke successes.But sometimes the accumulation of all those mistakes
and the learning points ends up insomething actually going well. But you know
it went well because of the choicesyou made. So to my left,

(02:01):
and it'll be speaking first, becausewe'll have to take it in terms because
of the audio recorder thing we've got. Alistair. Alisair was on the show
about a year and a half ago. I think something like that. You
would talk to Ham and what we'retalking about something, So, Alistair,
what did you take for our trip? What did you learn? What did

(02:24):
I take? In terms of hole? So are we talking or just go
nuts? Go nuts? Okay?So I was later addition, I would
say to the to the Greek Plans, and I took a fairly lightweight packing
system. I wanted to go asfairly faster than light as I could based

(02:50):
on initial feelings of what my fitnesswas and the terrain that we might be
covering. And from on that Iwent a little bit mad by the lightweight
gear. I wanted comfort at night, that was my decision making process.

(03:10):
But during the day I wanted toto basically be able to move fast,
so I opted for trail runners,but also conversely are really nice, you
know, eight centimeter thick, highervalue sleeping pad at the other end of
the situation, and then various packingthings. You know, I kind of

(03:38):
I weighed out my gear, sortof use pat light to help whittle down
things. That's the website. Thewebsite that you can you can input various
gear things to tell your your selectionsbetween sleep gear and cooking gear and so
on. It gives you a lovelypie chot. We'll put a link to
that in the bio of the podcast. Yes or a will, cause I

(04:00):
won't, so we're doing it well. And then yeah, a lot of
a lot of chats with Rich aboutfood selection because obviously at that point the
number of days and things were unknownto me. It was do you want
to come up to Scotland? Yes? Where we go? Not quite all?
NOI art, do we know aroute? No? You need to

(04:21):
eat though, you know? Yes, so I plan meals and my takeaways
post trip are weirdly enough of mygear selections. I was happy with most
things. There was a broken parton a set of gators that I wanted
to bring, which caused them tobe left behind, so I was left

(04:43):
with trail running sort of anti rocklittle gator things, which proved, you
know, they were admirable in thesituation to go as high as your socks
basically, yes, yes, they'reliterally there to stop rocks getting any your
shoes. That's it. They're not. They won't protected, you'll legs racking
or gorse or thistles or anything likethat. So that was an annoyance before

(05:06):
you even left the Airbnb sort ofthing. But by that point they were
already in the bag, so itwas dead weight in the pack. And
then coming back afterwards, I've stillgot most of a food bag because I
took far too much food. Iwould say those are my two main negatives.

(05:28):
And then but actually on the train. My sort of fears over my
general fitness of doing some of thesteeper, steeper train were unfounded. Actually,
I was quite happy with my overallfitness, surprised that my sort of
farm fit carried me through quite comfortably. Because you're a farmer on a fairly
steep farm. Soon anything at thetop of the hill you have to do

(05:51):
about a thousand meters of thousand feetof ascent. Yes, yeah, there
is. There is a lot ofwalking involved when I'm not using our gate.
I think I wouldn't fit. You'dbe if you had a second quad,
what I'd be like an arable farmer. Jesus have just switched off.

(06:12):
Sorry guys, Yeah, that's that'smy initial takeaways. I think. You
know. We we originally set outfor what good was it three nights total,
and we ended up doing some replanningduring the route, so I didn't
get to test all my gear aswell as I liked. But happy with

(06:33):
what performed well m hm, soyeah, and I very much enjoyed it.
Views were spectacular, as they've alreadyalluded to early, but it's it
was a difficult to find a viewI didn't like. Yes, yes,
very much, so it was.That's kind of the reason we were there.

(06:56):
Okay, well, thank you foryou for now, thank you turn
the focus onto David now, soDavid or Dave generally, it's only my
mother that caused me. David,so because you've not been on the show
before, No, not not notthis one. Now, I've been a

(07:20):
long term patrol for the show.And basically, when I mean, this
idea came about because Rich showed mea rough idea of planning had and I
thought, oh, look, I'vegot some worksh do in Scotland and the

(07:41):
it sort of fitted quite honously withthe route you were showing me initially,
and I fancied a weekend a waydoing some hillwalking, and it also happened
really so we invited everyone came uphere. How with you with the anchor

(08:03):
for the whole thing. People keptsaying, you know, going on this
trip, I know Dave's triplet's wewent together. I will pass the blame
entirely onto you for everything wherever possible. That's fine. I've got both shoulders.
I don't mind. So as faras what I was expecting, I've
got a limited amount of mountaining experience, mostly a little bit of Whales and

(08:28):
a little bit of Lake District,and I was unprepared for the dramatic scenery
in the Western Highlands, which wasbloody hell. That's quite severe, quite
big and steep. Yes, it'sfrom c to that goes straight up.
Yeah, it's relentless. Somebody oncesaid to me that walking in Sodi or

(08:52):
the Lake District or anywhere else inEngland and Wales is completely ruined for you
the moment you come to the WesternHighlands or the Caring Horns, because just
after that, that's that's where thebig stuff is, that's what the proper
stuff is. Yes, and itwas I was really catching the boat in
and dawn was starting to break.You've got that twilight first thing in the

(09:18):
morning, twilight, and you startseeing these dark shapes, dark sharp shapes
appearing in front of you, like, oh, I didn't quite realize it
was going to be. Is dramatic, it's the best way to describe it.
I mean, it's achingly beautiful andthere's just visit is for to fill

(09:41):
the soul with everything you could everwant. It's I absolutely love the place
I shall be coming back. It'sgiven me a taste of for what else
there is definitely so. I thinkit's something for our overseas listeners, but
to through those in the in Canadaand the southern Canadian region just below it.

(10:05):
But these these mountains aren't huge bysort of global standards. They only
go to about three or four thousandfeet above sea level, but you're often
viewing it from sea level. Yes, that's where the roads and the valleys
are. Don't go more than onehundred meters above sea level. A lot
of the time. Often you're drivingon the coast, so when you see
the summit of the mountain over there, you're looking right up. You're craning

(10:28):
your neck right back to lock thetop. There's no one going up to
five thousand feet and then there's apeak. It's I'm on the bunt when
you go straight up who which isvery good. My fitness level for what
we were planning wasn't adequate in myopinion, I'd probably got through it,

(10:50):
but I wouldn't have enjoyed it asmuch. I'm certainly the little bit of
walking up done in mountains wasn't goodenough prepper ration for coming up here.
It's just rumless slot of uphills,but the views at the top are definitely
worth it. It's often trackless aswell, isn't it. Yes, if

(11:11):
you're lucky, you're following a deertrack type thing. It's just case of
that let's pick the the less dangerouslooking roots on that hill, yeah type
thing. Alison and I were doinga lot about on the second and the
second day we sort of get tookay, we'll get to this rock and
remember that rock we're standing there,and go left round up and there,

(11:31):
right round that and left through that, zigzag through that. Oh yeah,
I see, get onto the onewith a point between the square point one.
Yeah. It's like when you lookat the OS map, it's orange,
person, someone that's just solid orange. Just to contour lines are just
so close together. It's it's notorange map, which is not something you
get in the area from where theconto lines are infighting the trinciples. There

(11:56):
we go. Yeah, if Iwas coming back, I'd do a lot
more more preparation and a lot moresevere hills, especially with what turned out
to be a heavy pack that i'dbeen practicing with, which leads on to
when I was taking so a seventyliter osprey pack. Heaviest items in there

(12:18):
were my tent which is wild CountryHome compact too, which I've got some
new poles because I've broken weekend previouslyin the amber zide that lovely little storm,
that happy which you had to getdelivered to my house because it was
more likely to get to the thanthe Western Highlands in time. Yes,
So when I spoke to well comfortedthem like, oh, we're not sure

(12:39):
if it's going to get to youin time, so I gave them your
restriction. It turned up next name, which is brilliant. Yeah. But
then I got a message every daysaying have you still got the poles?
Are the poles? Have you packedthe poles? Are the poles in the
truck? The pole? Did thepoles make it to the second vehicle?
I'll be here, And I didwonder what about it? Yeah, but

(13:01):
I did wonder where the you know, would it be too cruel to just
sort of photoshop them into different places, you know, throw it into a
rubbis dumb a band above the riverwhich struck down side of the M six.
Yeah, we've got that face.Yes, So yes. When I

(13:26):
originally planned my pathway, I waslooking at about eight to ten kiloads and
then suddenly it turned as nineteen whenwe got here, so I hadn't quite
planned properly for that. I mean, one of the things I managed to
do before is I managed to losenearly ten kiloads of weight. That definitely
helped from you, from me personallyyou because I knew this was coming up.

(13:48):
So I went on a mixture ofvery restricted diet which was basically chicken,
broccoli and rice and avocados mixed inwith intermittent fasting and the way off
and I shall continue to do soit look better for us, better for
it, I agreed, because Iwant to lose. I was nearly ten
percent. If I can get totwenty twenty five percent, I'll be very

(14:11):
happy. That was That's not asix month period of ten kilars. You
did that in a month, butsix weeks. Yeah. Yeah, And
I didn't feel bad for it either, So I didn't feel that losing that
way was a chore. I wasn'tangry all the time. But I did
have to cut out drinking, whichwas fund a good thing for me,

(14:35):
definitely. It's a lot cheaper aswell. Christ Well, I had to
find some way of a folding allthe shiny kissing again. Yeah, but
Yeah, I spend more time doingmore of the hill walking with the properly
weighted pack. My expectations and understandingof the trade and walking into have developed,

(15:00):
so I now know what to expectand yeah, quite that really learning
experience, I've learned a lot.I'll be better for birth next on.
So next up we have Chris whowas on the IT Bring this year.
You are on the podcast, Yeah, I think so go on. All
right. So the chance for meto join this trip came up with Dave

(15:24):
at the gathering in the summer.Yeah, and it was more an nostalgia
thing because I've been here before.Last time I was at Neudark twenty twenty
one, and obviously there was alot younger than because I'm a month away
from sixty. Your mind remembers twentyyears ago, but your body is nowhere
near it. So I packed tooheavy. I packed for other people because

(15:50):
I'm so used to running activities whereyou've got to take into consideration the lack
of ability of other people you've gotwith ye, not necessarily in the hills,
but in like in a woodland environmentand in more of a lowland environment.
And these guys are very capable andI didn't appreciate that at all,

(16:11):
so I sort of basically humped.You might have to translate that for the
Americans if they listened to no,I carried. I carried fifty pounds up
the hill, come back and usedperhaps a quarter of the stuff in there.
Yeah. Yeah. One of theother things that I did was I

(16:33):
decided I wasn't going to throw aload of money at new equipment for an
activity that I would probably not dothat often or ever again, so I
may do with what I had.When you're in a group, you have
to understand fitness is different to speed, and you may be fit enough to

(16:56):
walk up and down the hill,but you may not be fast enough to
keep with the people you're with,and that's very important to understand. But
coming back to the estate was reallygood. I enjoyed it and it was
great fun with you guys. Yeah, because we I think we've been on
the on the peninsula twenty two minutesbefore you bumped into somebody you oh god.

(17:18):
Yeah, And then there was anotherone walking out. Yeah yeah.
This guy sort of stopped was onthe track and he was doing the are
you meant to be? You're notmeant to be? On that track over
there on the other side of thevalley. Question. Yes, but then
more to the points, I don'tknow, we are heading for that hill
there. He gave us a bitof datron. Oh yeah, there's a
new track that takes you about thehydro there. And then if I was

(17:38):
going to be doing this, Igo around onto the onto the ridge that
curves around onto that first summit andthen you and Chris said, Drew,
aren't you it was he's a stalker. The Yeah, he used to stalk
that state thirty years. We onlyfind out he was retired when we spoke
to the guy in the next day, didn't Yes, stalker is professional hunter,

(18:03):
not not somebody who just keeps hidinganyr bins. Oh yeah, and
those guys are up and down thosehills all day with a rifle or pair
of binoculars and spotting scope and that'sa cigarette as well, or yeah,
and a little flask of whiskey.And they're the types that if they do
get stuck out up there, they'rejust crawl out of the wind and come

(18:23):
back the next day and no onewould ever worry about it. Yeah,
yeah, but no, that's sothat was good. So it was.
It was interesting as well seeing thecomparisons between kit because my kit was very
different to alistairs and shockingly similar todays unfortunately. Yes, yeah, Dave

(18:44):
and I have have this weird thing. We don't communicate about stuff, and
then we end up buying, ifnot the same model of something, we
end up buying something that's incredibly similar. So I think we ended up with
the same boots, pretty much,the same trousers, same rucksack, same
satellite communicy, it's the same poles. They're all very very similar that you'd
have look tice and that's my pack. Yeah, and it was. It

(19:07):
was practiced such from the back fromfrom from the back. It was all
very neat, so like an alpinepack effectually, so there's nothing hanging off
it, not like bottom pands bangingaround. Yeah, because that's how I've

(19:29):
learned to pack over the years.It goes in the pack and you don't
make a lot of noise because Ilike to exist in nature, not scared.
Its way. It was ironic becauseyou start a deer away, well,
let me go, I think youactually saw the deer that heard you
when they were approaching us from anangle. And it was when I was

(19:52):
telling you to remain still and youwere walking towards the two coming towards the
water. Oh well, I canquite see what you would there. So
if you're using handsOn, I didn'tknow what they meant because I was never
in the army. But on thatkit, I mean your tent weighed what
under two killer grounds? I thinkso, yes, I was using a

(20:17):
hubb a hubber NX, which isit's not a lightweight tart tent by any
means, but it is you know, it's around the two kilo or just
under one took it did take off, yes, so that was a learning
point when you compare that new techwith the old tech. I think my

(20:37):
tent setup was around seven kilos,but that was some of that are put
down to the well the size ofit. You saw the difference in the
size and also no in this ground. I chose really robust you know,
brackets, heavy pegs to bring withme as well, and never lost a
peg that first night. Think itwas because of various reasons. We ended

(21:03):
up in this saddle, which waspretty much collecting all of the wind that
had come over from the east ofScotland, went right through the middle of
the highlands and all focused into thatone acre of hillside into my tent.
Yeah, because you I think you'reyou're I was nearly finished setting my tent
up when I saw your tent inmy sort of upper nine o'clock periphery as

(21:26):
it blew away briefly because your yoursmall shepherd's crook pegs don't didn't actually hold
in properly, but even mine Iwas. I watched you set up your
tensaster before I set mine up.I usually sort of like as an avalanche
poodle to try and find a wayto okay and see what happens to his
tent, and then I'm going tobase. I had to go right next

(21:48):
to him or all the way overthere, depending on how badly or well
this goes. That is one ofthe things I've picked up over the years
and years is if you can alwaysgo for the most robust pegs, because
they will make such a difference.So you can have the best tent in
the world, but if it blowsaway, you know you've had it.
You can have a crappy tent,but if it holds still, at least

(22:08):
you've got some sort of cover.Yes, but you just have to carry
him. Yeah, I bought someof the great big nine inch nail tenth
snail pegs or more way up inthe ambleside, because I needly lost my
tent then and the little pegs Ihad were not sufficient for the grammy in.

(22:29):
Then yeah, the little titanium chappertucks crooks because luckily I've brought more
than a selection of pegs. Soyeah, when the inner decided to make
its way swiftly towards the block,and yeah, they were swiftly replaced with

(22:49):
MSR groundhogs, which actually did thejob far more appen for me. And
yeah, that's a note that areused in logan conditions for sure. Then
the next day, because we've gotthings up about just bloat just over two
thousand feet, I think we wereat We counted that our first night,

(23:11):
and then alstrad I headed off inone direction and Chris and Dave headed off
in a different direction, and AlstradaI decided we wanted to really wanted to
do another eighteen kilometers, yes,in a short period of time, and
didn't see anybody until we were reallynearly at the bottom again, although there
was a near miss where I decidedto go and flip a rock and dig

(23:33):
a hole somewhere just off to theone side of the track. Haven't not
seen any other humans, But overtwenty four hours and not five minutes later,
the only other two people in theentire valley decided to try and walk
past. Yes, there was acertainly delaying tactics, mostly caused by a
small Scottish slash wearing a Highland couphat, which was fascinating. Yeah.

(23:56):
I've always got this theory that ifanyone does disturb me whilst we're in the
middle of your blue sh and maintaineye contact, maintain dominance, and they
they'll back away slowly. It's theirfault. Yes, safe for bears,
isn't it. Yeah? I thinkwell, you know, on our route
back down, we started to thensee more of the deer trails and we

(24:17):
never came back down the route thatwe went up. We dropped into that
re entrant and then we picked themup. And there's a reason that the
deer walked that way. Yes,And it's a lot quicker, easier and
interestingly less risky because they are notscrambling over rocks and you can see the
trails when they come to a boggyarea that they can't jump, they will

(24:41):
walk around it, and it justthe more you come sort of tuned into
that, they then lead you thenot necessarily the most direct way, but
they lead you the safest way ora safe way. It's no efficient roots,
isn't it. Yah. I foundthat on the second day where there
was no human tracks really there,but we would often be picking our way

(25:03):
between two rocks over around the bluffand you just do it visually based on
what looks at the best line,and then you get there and they'd already
be deer prince or fresh deer whoon the ground. Yes, so you
were following in the deer track withouteven realizing it was there because you looked
at it like a deer the longingto be there. And it was interesting
how often that happened. And thatis you just tuning into that environment in

(25:29):
a relatively short period of time,because when we were going up, you
know, you can look at itand go, oh, yeah, there's
a deer motorway on the other sideand all the rest. But then within
ten hours or you know, fiveten hours of that, you are then
seeing those those single deer route.Yeah. Definitely deer roots when Rich and
I were following the ridge line.I think half the times that we were

(25:51):
actively avoiding them was so that wecould either look to see the next step
of our root or just to sortof claim the peek as it were,
you know, where whereas the deerwould be running around slightly around sort of
the leeward side of the hill oron the slightly flattered ground just below where
they're scent wouldn't be sent over thehill. For sure, we were,

(26:14):
you know, it was it wasnice to not be on a on a
walk track actually a fair bit.Yeah, it was using the ground you
could sneak upon quite happily as well. You were well within stalking distance.
Yeah. We had several good wildlifeencounters Tomigan snow grouse, thing, plenty

(26:34):
of read deer. We've got sealdown in the valley. Yeah yeah,
yeah. We saw squirrels in thewoods coming back down, didn't we.
There were grays and the highland someof them. It's no doubt really is
a special place, and that thatferry ride that brings you in, so

(26:56):
it's a half hour ferry you bucketfrom a placed on the lake on the
mainland, I could say, inthe mainland, but it's both on the
mainland, but it really does feellike an island when you're there because you're
accessed by sea, and to walkout is a couple of days realistically from
where we were, so that ferryride across is there's always something about arriving

(27:18):
somewhere by small boats as well thatit doesn't make it feel a little bit
special. Yeah, I think whenwe landed because I think we'd looked at
the weather and made some predictions basedon wind speeds and so on, and
our original plan was that we wouldcatch the boat in and then walk out
because then we wouldn't be beholden towhatever weather came in, as it was

(27:41):
beginning to look a bit gusty anda bit fruity for the extraction. So
our original plan was to walk out, And I think part of the impetus
when we got there was like,this is us. Now We've got,
you know, two or three daysahead of us to slog out back to
you know, where we parted thecar in the first place. And there

(28:03):
is a I like that thing aboutit being committed to a place, because
that was something in the original planwhich we didn't quite hit because that plan
all hinged on. You had toget to this certain point by the end
of day one because if you didn'thit that point, then you wouldn't be
able to make up the time onday two in order to do day three,

(28:27):
which got you back to the startpoint. Yes, and there was
a bit of extra communication with home, trying to get sort of ferries,
book and things like that, becausethere is a mobile data signal there now
at four G in places, buteven so once you're once a behind the
mountain, it doesn't work. Yeah, and we took different communication devices with

(28:51):
alses just occurs. Yes, Yeah, that was part of my planning.
Everyone else carried the gear. Daveand I both had the Mobile Defy Satellite
communicator, which we you bought abouta month before I did. Yes,
and we've both been playing around withwhich seems to work, but it does
require being able to see a satellitethat's quite low in the sky, so

(29:14):
when you're behind a mountain and there'sa mountain between you and the satellite doesn't
work. It's been very similar toevery satellite phone experience I've ever had in
a valley, which is wandering aroundwith the area at a slight angle,
going no, yeah, no,yeah, no, right, because the
satellites are all equatorial and we arefairly far north well, you know,

(29:38):
relative to most other things. Ithink we are about level with mid Nova
Scotia. Yeah, always gets itwrong. It's how far north England or
Britain, the British hours actually are. We're actually remarkably far north, but
we're worn temperate and down, yes, beacause of the Atlantic and the jetstrip,

(29:59):
but we are quite quite long wayup. So we are at the
edge of where Motorola and Bullet andthe people that run the software and the
satellites for it, they say thatwe are in the coverage zone that is
well covered. But I would sayonly if you're on a south facing slope.
Yes, I mean even on thetop of the hill. Sometimes I

(30:21):
was finding finding it difficult to getstuff like coverage yea, as the communicators
do need to be on top ofyour pick yes, high up with a
good view of the sky, soyou can't check it in the bottom of
your pipe. It won't work.Literally turning your rocksack over it's enough to
block it. It's almost like youhave to orientate it before you then commit

(30:41):
to sending the message. Rather thanjust relying on it being there. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, also just lookedit up. We're at fifty seven
degrees latitude where we were there,so and whereas Chris, you took a
PLD. Yeah, that's I alwayscarry that. I have for years and
well, as you know, it'snot a communicator. It's a press the

(31:03):
button for help device, but thatrelies on well that's working to different satellites,
to the communication satellites. So youare according to the stats and the
history of people who've used it,you know you've got good coverage very far
north and south worldwide. You mightstruggle on the pole. Other than that,
you know, it's yeah, becausethat's the think yours is you press

(31:26):
the button, unfold the antenna,and then it's leaps until the battery goes
dead. That's right. Yeah.So it's got the GPS antenna and then
the satellite antenna and it bangs outfour h six megahertz at five watts,
So it will punch through pretty muchanything. And where we were, there's
nothing to stop it. You're going, I'm here, come get me,

(31:48):
I'm here, come get me,can get me repeatedly. Yeah, And
it will do that and update yourposition every sort of it's fifteen minutes,
so you're you know, you're notprobably not going to be moving anyway,
so it's it's great on that.The disadvantage, of course, is then
you don't get that two way colmslike you would if you guys hit your

(32:09):
emergency buttons. There's a chance thatsomeone could then assess what the nature of
injuries and give you an update ontime frames. With the PLB, just
hunker down and wait it out.Yeah. And also I suppose it doesn't
because of that lack of two way. It doesn't allow you to resolve minor
problems. It's either it's nothing ornuclear. That's right. It's a cool

(32:30):
for rescue rather than ask for advice. Yeah, or I can't say other
ferries running tomorrow? Is this thingrunning? Is this? What's the what's
the weather forecast? But I canask if as long as you get a
signal, I can go and askAmy, yeah and look it up for
me. But that overall is partof that sort of pre planning for it.
Because the stuff like Communicator, itcommunicates to an app, so it's

(32:52):
not you can just send a textmessage out, but you can't do two
way unless you're within their app thatapp lies the person on the around.
I think you probably have this withyour wife as well. But the app
is open and they're expecting you tobe sending messages through it, but it's
running in the background. Yeah,it's going to be enabled on the on
the handset and they have to signedup and you know it's got to be

(33:15):
present. Oh, you just getbased texas you go download this app.
Some people have to talk to you. Yeah, but I found with that
the first time you do that,it doesn't actually work properly. Is until
you almost started a new conversation,and then it works about them. I
think there's an app book which isthe sort of thing you test a few

(33:36):
weeks before you go on a trip. You don't want to do that whilst
you're in the middle of nowhere towork it back and forth while sit there
were two firms next to each other. Yes, absolutely, you've got to
established that relationship with the person thatwe talk to before needing to because I
think that's something that people often dois they buy a piece of equipment for
a trusted brand, trusted source.They trust the reviews and they trust it's

(33:57):
going to do exactly what it sayson the tin. But I'm a very
suspicious person and I want to go, Yeah, I want to I want
it. I want it to dothe thing in front of me good conditions,
two or three times before I trustthat it is actually going to do
that thing. Yes, Is thatwater filter going to work? Is that
tent going to stand up? Isis that sleeping that going to stay inflated?
Think you had a few issues ofthat somewhere. I've got a small

(34:21):
leak of moid sleeping that and evensubmerging at the bath. I can find
the whole at the atomic level somewhere. It's I think it's leaking seal that
trying to submerge and inflated sleeping isactually quite difficult because it doesn't want to.
So if I've got that tiny leakand it's not showing bubbles with some
soapy water, I actually need tosubmerge it in still water to see the

(34:45):
air bubbles coming out. You needmore of a swimming pool than a bath,
and several people to hold it nowweight it down and I just see.
But that was interesting about the communicationdevices because the three of us took
one. Obviously, Alistair is relyingon ours a little bit if it all

(35:07):
went pe Tom. But thinking backon it, I never did any training
with yours or your motor rollers.You know, I never bothered myself to
go, like, show me howthis will work. So if I have
to use that in a hurry becauseI'm the only one left and I need
to text my last will and testamentto somebody, or how does this actually

(35:27):
work? But you did show usyour yeah, showed me. Yeah,
yeah, I got the beacon outon the night before we went and showed
you the buttons. But it couldbe even a simple thing like oh,
yeah, I know yours works throughthe phone, but how do I unlock
your phone? What's your code onthe screen? You know? Do I
have to cut your thumb off orsomething to cut off? It's better to

(35:52):
be sure. Yeah, that's whichhand putting your in head on again and
a bit of an instructor learning,and that's sharing that that kit and that
knowledge rather than just for a lotof richer take care of it. And
then we all took water filters,which is quite interesting. Yeah, that's
gone more for you. No,it's my phone, which was recording half

(36:16):
the conversation on has just decided toreboot itself. So we'll start that recording
again. Should we pause everything?Picking up on this and people like to
hear the shambolic nature of the kettle. We knew that plan right. We're
back, So the audio may havechanged a little bit because my phone decided

(36:40):
to die. I don't know why. I think it was actually the app
for running motorrollers have like communicator,decided didn't like what we were saying about
it and killed itself. So we'vechanged up positions on the table and now
the recording devices at one end.So the audio quality may have gone up
or down depending on how badly thefirst bit went. If it sounds like

(37:01):
my bits had dubbed in afterwards,they probably weren't. So we started talking
about this when we were resetting withnew coffee and resetting the table. There's
a thing about tech overall, whichChris said about we didn't show you know.
This is how you use our device, but realistically, unless you have

(37:21):
to go into the app, goand find the messages and do the two
way to access a two way communicationfor our things, you have to go
right into the app on our phones, but on the device itself there is
a big orange SOS but to pressthat and stuff will happen. There's a
checking button as well, which ifyou set it up in yeah, yes,
it can send your current location toyour nominated check in contact. Yes.

(37:44):
Yeah. The only thing I'd sayon that is when you look at
the video, they're a promotional videoand it says, you know, even
if you press the SOS but andthey will then come back to you.
That sort of implies and I've neverused it, but it implies that I
then have to go on that phoneto apply to their messages. We're going

(38:04):
to do a review on it,and I'm going to ask them for some
questions because there was some feedback onthis anyway. But I will ask that
if you just press it and ignoreit, does something? Do they eventually
go or I will send something Yeah, appears on your head ultimately, right,
it's going to be the same emergencyservice or volunteer organization that comes to
you. It's how that that groupreceives the information, you know, because

(38:30):
they're going to be tasked by thepolice. But the police after then get
the information. Does it come froma pool center in Kuala Lumpet or does
it you know, how does itwork? Then comes through the ARC.
Yeah, but then it's like thatThe emergency show was quite interesting because when
I was talking to the sign ofthe police guys, they're very well practiced

(38:52):
on taskings that come through regular channels. So if the the RCC tasks the
local police force, that is anestablished procedure. But if it's like let's
just say it's the Garment Emergency ControlCenter that then phones a police number in
the UK, You've got all ofthat. Is it real, isn't it?

(39:13):
You know, the procedure isn't quiteas well practiced. Yeah, I
think it goes center. I thinkI think in the UK both PLDs and
this sort of goes to definitely willgo through Farmer Yeah, and goes through
basically Coast Guard. Yeah, itgoes through the MCA. It used to
be in lots sorry if Kin Lossup here didn't. Yeah, there was
two. There was the Farmers onewas the civilian one and then the r

(39:35):
c C at Kin Loss was forwhen we had military covering why need search
and rescue legions and stuff like that. But now it's all just based a
phone and depending on who you got, there was either the seeking but it's
way to sell this to me thatwe actually need to send you a seeking
which was there was always interesting conversations. But that's the parts of the thing

(39:57):
about other tech. Because Dave andI both had os maps with us.
You had the maps printouts, yeah, copy map. Yeah. And then
Dave and I were both running OutdoorActive on our phone as an app.
Yes, I also have Mr Mapas well, Yes, which is I

(40:21):
think I prefer the map rendering tobe honest on the map. Yeah.
Outdoor Active app has got better,but it's still doggy and doesn't have all
the features and wanted to have it. It sort of took over from an
app that was called view Ranger,which was almost perfect. Yes, everyone
loved it, and then it wentand now it's sad because it's acts as

(40:43):
a sort of trained map reader.It was. It was nice when we
were up on the high sort ofridge with some of the wind and you
were there just with your phone,quick zoom. That's that's the next sort
of checkpoint that we're aiming for withouta map flopping around. You've cut down
your map, which yeah, it'spretty pre standard of the size of the

(41:04):
phone. Screwing basically yeah, yeah, so I do it so I can
fold it to that size. Butalso sometimes you know, like when it's
up there and you're looking at fivek's on a little square is not enough.
Sometimes you need to be able tosee a big like that little bit
bit further but at the same scale, because that really MUCKs me up is
when you can zoom in and outand the squares get I'm just so tuned

(41:25):
into looking at a two centimeter square, you know, it's I find it
difficult then to see features when thattwo centimeters square becomes five and then it
changes changes the color scheme as well, exactly. Legend say, we were
quite tech heavy. I suppose we'rea little really. We have, you
know, three three emergency systems,three hard hard copy maps, two electronic

(41:52):
versions walking around. I think Iwas carrying three compasses. Yeah, I
think each of us had a compassI have. Yeah, there was with
the matching, but with the techfor the mapping for the app. We
were using that as a map.We weren't using it as GPS dedyce.
So yeah, if we were relyingon waypoints and saying, okay, navigate

(42:14):
to this waypoint in the straight line. Navigated this waypoint in a straight line.
It was we already looked at themap weeks before and going, yeah,
there's that flap ontour to that flatcontur these contours in between. That's
an acceptable ridge, that's an acceptablesloppangle. I know I can walk at
that with this kind of pack.There might be some rocks, it might
be some undergrowth, but we'll dealwith that on the day. And then

(42:35):
we were just navigating from assuming Ino, I need to get to this
flap bit, this bit on theon the ridge, so that's through here,
through here, through here, andthen looking at it at it on
the ground, I'd say, ifit'll be navigator. If the weather had
come in and we dropped down tosort of normal Scottish visibility, which is
about the length of your trekking pole, then I would have gone to the

(42:57):
paper map, I think, becauseI'm more comfortable using that to go from
place to place to place with orwithout the assistance of the compass, because
it's easy. Like Chris are saying, my brain is built then for the
square, for the grips of beinga certain size, whereas with the phone
and zooming games, zoom and zoomingout, so you can't get a sense

(43:19):
of how far apart of those contoursare based on your zoom level. Yes,
you have to put you have tothen dedicate more brain energy to work
out what should almost be a secondnature sort of understanding. Yeah, I
think like talking about the weather asa as a designates for our replanning or

(43:40):
planning. I think that the windspeed change changed our root selection initially from
voting boat act to we're going totry and walk out. And then when
we hit the ground it's very youknow, beautiful weather actually, and we
as we got up to that towardsthe lock the hydro lake and then beyond

(44:07):
the wind started kicking in when wewere getting more exposed. And I think
that's changed your guys' perceptions of whatwas ahead possibly yes versus Richard and I's
yeah, sort of situation of howit would change our plan on the ground.

(44:30):
Would you say anything to that?Yeah? But also like I was
like quietly not confident, but sortof quietly hopeful that I could achieve an
average of around sort of like saytwo clicks an hour, but just a
steady pace. But then that thatquickly became apparent as we started to climb,

(44:51):
when we were hitting that rat andthat I wasn't going to do that,
and that was going to have abig effect on what you guys,
because you know, like you guysare probably your four clicks an hour years
we are, well, I'm certainlytwenty years. You're young. Yeah,
but I mean that's not the pointbecause it's the effect of one person on
that whole group and not the mission. But you know what, the sort

(45:13):
of light the outline aim was,Yeah, faster, that's right, and
then you don't like the rest stopso you guys can get ahead. You
then wait for me to catch up. I get my ten minutes, you've
already had twenty and you're off again, so you're not catching up on that.
I think there's also a if you'rewalking for ten hours, you've got

(45:37):
ten hours of walking drained from yourlegs, no matter what speed you go
back to. Definitely, it's likesome of them you can feel absolutely knackered
after a day of wandering around doingChristmas shopping, despite you haven't actually gone
that fast, you haven't gone thatfar. It's just you are standing up
and shuffling and adusting your weight forten hours. Yeah, it's the same

(45:57):
thing for because I was like Iwas feeling quite tired at the end of
day one. We hadn't necessarily goneas far as we wanted to, because
it turning up at that time.We just went. And even if it
was standing around waiting, we're stillholding seventeen like pack or whatever. And
also it's our differences because looking atday one, if I was making the
decision to lead a group up there, I would have probably just followed the

(46:20):
re entrant rather than you know,we went. We followed Drew's little sniggery
advice and went to the left andhit it almost straight on, didn't we.
In places, see, I've founda mountaineering that it's a it's a
shallower slope, aangle to go onthe left because the ridge is more gradual,
it's still pretty steep, whereas there entrant you're going up into it,

(46:42):
but then the last bit is afull on climb out at the end,
whereas the other way you run upand flaps. In hindsight, and
having seen what we've seen as wecame down, and it would that wouldn't
have been the case. We'd havegone up, you know, on the
left side, following the deer track, and then there was the deer motorway
was on the right and we'd havecome out right by that little lot where
we all spent the night. Yeah, we did find a much more gentle

(47:07):
route down what we took out,Yeah, which whilst it's still the same
vertical ascent, it's no nearest ofit too. There's the whole mental challenge
as well, when when you're stingthe bottom and sudden that's thirty to forty
degrees and you look at going that'sreally steep and I'm going to struggle.

(47:28):
You've already decided you're going to struggle, Yeah, and you don't know that
you're descent route would have been betterin ascent onto your tray. That's exactly
right, absolute, Yeah, that'sthat's one of the things. And it
comes with familiarity with the area walkingin and this was this was an adventure,
yeah, And that's the whole pointit was. It was going in
that this was definitely unknown for me, well out of my comfort zone,

(47:50):
and I didn't know the trail atall. I've looked on Google Earth,
I've thrown through because you can bringa viewpoint down and literally move through about
it. And even then he wasunprepared for the severity of it. So
your research was going to Google,mapp sliding around. I think you'd looked
at trail routes because you during theinitial planning you were putting out various different

(48:15):
ones. Yeah. I looked atpeople's blogs and previous routes, photographs,
their comments about where things aren't,what things are, the best routes.
So I've done a lot of backgroundreading and a lot of what I thought
was meant mental preparation for arriving,and I hadn't done enough. And then
Chris, you were going off yourbase knowledge of when you've been here,

(48:37):
Yeah, years ago, But that'sjust they you know, you meet in
the morning, you go out forthe day, and you come back.
You're not you're not doing what wedid. And also when you look at
a lot of the reviews of peoplewho are walking that area, they will
go and stay in the lodges andthings and bag a couple of monros of
the day and then come back,so they're not planning for overnight, which

(49:00):
is what we were doing. Sowe were planning for two overnight it yeah,
three maximum. Because I did againlikely some of other people's blogs,
there was I was looking on Idon't know, a road bagger or something
like that for the local area andseeing what other routes people were doing,
because that was just towards the endof the planning selection when we were finalizing.

(49:22):
And then I found a couple ofYouTube videos of people walking the trails
that would have taken us to theSudi's Bottom, which was one of our
first overnight spot, so I couldsee the terrain and so at least in
my head, I have not beenup here before, I knew what to
expect, steep mountains given little treecover, given the videos gave me the

(49:49):
bandness that I'd forgotten or was unawareof. And also sort of how the
wet dry conditions, because we reallyexperienced the wet conditional normal Scotland. It
was very dry, wasn't it.Were really happy with the very dry considering
how bad the other side of Scotland'shad it recently. It's still barb it

(50:13):
flowing through and flooding into our communitiesand people dying Western Higlan. It was
surprising and just how dry it was, Just how dry the you know,
the streams in the re entrance thatthe water flow from dam and everything.
It was. Yeah, there's atrickle. It's the driest I've seen in
the Western Highlands in October. Yeah, there was, and that that made

(50:37):
everything easier in a way, whichdoesn't really affect the other decision and the
other points. But the difference inwet rain, the difference in bogy terrain,
the difference and just how much resistancethe ground puts up when you put
your foot on it. That makesa huge difference to what to how much
effort it tastes to traverse that route, how much, how much mental energy

(51:00):
intakes to go through that route.But it's thing, I feel like we've
all had good learning points from this, and it's not necessarily the learning points
we expected to gain. I thinkit was sense to talk learning points.
There was a comment I think Chrisbrought up, which was he carries poles

(51:24):
for for use, but he's nothe doesn't get mad a lot. Yeah,
it was. It was my firsttime using poles on steep mountains,
you know, and pretty much andbut I've been a skier for many years,
so again I'm used to poles.Yeah, you know, there's a

(51:45):
there's a core memory of corn memory. But you know, when I'm not
concentrating, I go into a flaw. You have muscle memory, yeah,
and Rich certainly has that. Soit's quite interesting seeing how how much extra
effort I guess you guys were havingto put into due to just having to

(52:06):
concentrate to think about it was whenit focuses you into that little bubble which
is as far as your poles canreach, when you should be looking You
should be looking there, right,You should be looking ahead, rather than
where am I going to put thispole? Yeah, that's the thing I
think. Until your poles become musclememory, they aren't. They aren't a

(52:29):
useful tool until you stop thinking aboutthem. And then when you do stop
thinking about them, they make ahuge difference. I used to use when
I used to do ultramarathons, andthey would knock minutes of my average colometer
pace, you know, just byhaving poles and way we were using them
on the second day, it wasit was as much for agility, yes,

(52:50):
as anything else. It was sortof you come around, you you
come around with rock. You useit to offset that so you can keep
the momentum into the corner, whichoverall does affect your average pace. But
there were a few times where polesstopped me probably getting a prop of an
ankle just with ground gave way belowbelow me into a bulk or something like
that. But I sort of leanedon the pole, not on not on

(53:12):
my ankle or my ship. Thereis a great tip Dave give me on
the way down, because as wewere coming down, Dave was in the
front at this stage and I couldsee him using the poles to stop his
momentum going forward, and I wastrying to do the same, but constantly
going forward. And then you know, he said, oh, you have
extended your poles for going down.Well, yeah, of course, I

(53:36):
don't know what I'm doing. Goaround the rock, yeah, longer the
way down. Yeah, that comesdown to time on time on tool.
Although I can't use the scratch properlyapparently, no, we did. You
have to be showing several times andyou still get it wrong. You're an

(53:58):
engineer, like right, you putyour hands the straps like this, and
I'm and now they're wrong. ButI've just done what you've told me to
do. You're perhaps you got thatpole. Do you know what I found?
I found for me, I wasmore comfortable not actually using the straps
because then I could position my handanywhere up and down that pole, you

(54:19):
know, to push me off ifthe pole needed to be sure. I
could do that. It's kind ofI know, when I'm in an almost
a flow state, when I'm movingacross rough ground with poles. Is when
I realized that now both of myleft hands and my right hand's holding onto
a rock. As I'm scrambling up, and I don't remember doing it,
I just automatically slip my hands outof the straps past the dealer pole to

(54:40):
the other hand I'm holding it midwaydown. I'm climbing up onto the thing.
It's like when you you you drivethe same route to work every day,
and you eventually get to a pointwhere you're at work, and you
can't remember anything about the journey abouthow you got there. When I'm doing
that, I know that I'm probablyin the right mental state for this,
but it's not entirely trustworthy. Theother interesting or another interesting one for me,

(55:06):
it would be to find out orto hear from you guys, how
your water systems expectation versus performance.Because we all had a different version of
the Fuilter. Unless Dave and Richand all that nobody he had he had
one I already owned, but Itook a different one. They had to
be a linked Yes, so I'vegot the little ms R Trail Shots trail

(55:30):
shop thing. One's like a primaball for an outboard motor something like that.
Yes, And it's not very fastand it cold up instantly the first
time I tried using it, whichis disappointing. And it's quite a chunky
little puddle. It's quite a peatylittle it's it's we do have a pre

(55:52):
filter on it. Yeah, it'sgot fine, very fine filter, so
you're not sucking the solid straight up. And eventually once I hadn't wash that
off and cleaned it up and itstarted before me. But there was a
lot of a lot of effort requiredfor not a lot of water, whereas
watching Alistas casting in B three,you just fill it up and then you've

(56:16):
sluted it out and it uses thepressure of you squirting the whole bottle,
which is a lot more efficient.Let's that you required a lot less effort
to get the water that I needed. Yeah, we have both ptechnically had
the same film from different companies,didn't we Yeah, because I bought the
patienin B three specifically for this trip. I've got a Sawyer squeeze home,

(56:43):
which is dependable, but there wasa discount, a healthy discount, and
your wife worked in an outdoors itwas there was there was good reasons behind
getting it, but it was alsobecause I wanted to take a much larger
water carrier to do can't filter,which the cast and filter is better for.

(57:07):
But yeah, that was new tome, and it was again similar
dark peating puddle. That was quitea quick learning experience that actually it's not
great in murky water, but asa speed way of getting filtered water into
it's it needs very equick. Ihave the Platypus basically equivalent to the Sawyer

(57:30):
squeeze, and there's a few differentthings that have the same same system,
where there's a drinking bladder type bagthat you fill with water, screw it
onto the filter, put the cleanend of the filter over your bottle,
and squeeze it out. It's oneI might use that one that's much,
but it was just it basically wasthe first one in the pile of water
filters that came up. I meanthe lucky position where I have a box

(57:52):
of water filters. So I justwent for the one at the top,
but I was happy with it.The maybe sighted bigger capacity for filterings,
it will only be about a literat a time in the bag, so
filling up two liters was get togo back to the stream twice, go
back to it twice, but Iwas happy enough with it. And the

(58:14):
thing with all three of our filterswe've mentioned so far, they're all grating
the now point one microns, sothey will not filter out viruses, which
is not really a problem here inthe UK, so we don't basically no
viruses in our water unless you're collectingit from downstream of a sewish treatment plant.
But for the Highland upland water sourcesit's very unlikely to be a virus

(58:37):
problem in there, so those kindof filters work well for that. We'd
have had them boil it as wellif there was going to be a problem.
But Chris, you had the slightlymore Yeah. So it's the pure
hydration in line water filter, thebigger one with the pump. Yes,
yeah, so you've got it's liketwo hundred gallon capacity, and because it's

(58:58):
the pump, it will go downto virus. I think it goes zero
point zero three or something like.It's really good. And my experience with
it is from my military days.You know, I was involved in the
trialing of it to make sure itcould come into service. So it go
all the way through the Institute forOutdoor Aviation Medicine and all of that type

(59:20):
of stuff. You know, it'sgood enough for a typhoon piler that to
sit on, it's good enough forme to carry up and down, and
it's versatile so I can take thatfilter and clip it to a camelback system
or to a gravity system. Thatyour confidence and it was high for me,
you know as soon as we gotthere, whereas mind being brand new
to me, I was still youknow, I've not done that testing three

(59:45):
times in ideal conditions or to tryand find out how bad it was.
But again we had within the group, we had backup. You know.
It was I think we all broughtit. That was a trial for us,
but there was back up within thegreat group. So yes, it
was a little bit more heavy individually, and we could have all bought modern

(01:00:07):
system for the group. I thinkthat was part of the planning process,
was you do you and then we'llall come together and make it work.
Rather than we were a group.This person's going to lead, this person's
going to make, this person's goingto carry temples. It's person got the
ten you know, it wasn't.And that's that's some of the bit that
I definitely got wrong because I didn'tjust do me. I was also us

(01:00:30):
subversively doing you as well, ifyou know what I mean. Yeah,
that was a weird thing for mein a way because I had to remind
myself halfway through September or at theend of October when the trip happens,
halfway through September, to remind myself, no, no, you're not in
charge of these people. You've beenadvited as a peer. It's peer.

(01:00:53):
And this in hindsight, this isa different thing for me because I've done
fair amount of peer trips, lessso in the last ten years because more
trips have been work and when Igo out with friends, we don't go
into the hills, we don't goToto the woods, because I'm doing that
all the time. So going outwith peers before that was generally with peers

(01:01:17):
who were peers. In terms ofexperience, I was often sort of middling
or lowest experience in the group.And then when I'm leading, I'm often
the most experience in the group bydefault, because you don't you don't pay
to train somebody who knows less thanyou. So for this it was I
was able to observe. Basically,I had all my kids, You had

(01:01:38):
all your kids. I would havehelped with your kids if you needed it,
but you didn't need any help.And I wasn't in a position of
authority or control of any type,which meant I was able to have less
kit and I didn't have to worryabout having little lamlets in the top of
my pack saying Okay, your leaderis now unconscious or dying or dead.

(01:01:58):
If this case, do this,you know, get the standalone GPS out
of my pack. So I don'tdo this. Can you'd be surprised,
men, because I think quietly wewere all looking to you anyway for the
wisdom. Can You're not, whetherit was deliberate or not, because you
are the most experienced person in themountains and all the rest. Even though

(01:02:21):
we didn't put a big I amthe leader baseball cap on you. Well,
that's the thing. It's like that, I know you have more experience,
So I'd listened to what Yeah,definitely apart from apart from them.
When we were trying to find thefirst track and then you slipped and first
I told you so, Yeah,because I said this is down here.
Yeah, there was a lovely trackdown on the river. Though, wasn't

(01:02:43):
it enough to clime of de offense? But we walked back, we were
back. Yeah, it's perfect.Yeah. Simon says, do not go
in here, this is private,this is part of offenses. Yeah,
but Drew said it was all right. The last it's Scottish Act. Access
code means that even though it wasa gate, you can still go through
it. That's why they're not allowedto panel. They do make it very

(01:03:06):
difficult to get through. They needsmall If you ignore the sign, everything's
possible. But that is something Istarted to get an idea in that first
morning that we weren't all in thesame place growth zone, comfort zone.

(01:03:28):
Not no one was in panic zone, but it was it was it was
I said, this is going tobe a stretch me my comfort zone.
I think the difference in terrain comparedto what you'd seen before this was was
something because I was on a fairamount in Scotland that it's sort of Scotland
is like the wilder, crappier bitsof Whales in terms of terrain, where

(01:03:50):
where there's no tracks, everything's uncomfortable, everything steep. Yeah, but that's
what most of Scotland's like, awayfrom the bend Nervers track and stuff like
that. Whereas your your experience hasbeen a lot of it's been the lakes
and Harbyshire and Dartmoor, which darnwas pretty wild, but it's wild and
in a very different way. Yes, it's just a bit bleak. There's

(01:04:11):
no massive hilt, but there's alot of bogs, yes, whereas there's
more human human sign you were mentioningto me, you know, oh,
that's the first plane I've seen fora while. There was no ambient sort
of a noise, which again Ithink we had snowed down. Yeah.
You you you can't get away fromthat. You have the sound of Kevin

(01:04:31):
for Birmingham on his sports bag comingthrough. It's a very different environment all
around, and like you said,creates. It's that tuning into the environment.
And I've got this this thing,not if even a theory, it's
just a belief that if you takethe word bushcraft and bushcraft being the skills
needed to live and work effectively inthat environment. The British bushcraft, if

(01:04:55):
the bushes, the wild bits,it's not a woodland in Hampshire. There's
nothing wrong with spending time in woodlandin Hampshire. I spent a lot of
time in woodlands in the countryside ofNortheast Wales. One of them is ansters,
but it is not the same skillset, is not the same mindset.
It's not the same reliance on yourability to read the landscape as coming

(01:05:16):
up here. And I would say, for if using bush is the wilderness
wilder areas of the UK, thatis places like the Northwest Highlands, where
understanding that landscape, understanding that thatrock over there is five miles away or
that rock over there is five hundredyards away based on size, or what

(01:05:38):
this wind means, what that whitehazy bit blowing in over there means that
you're about to get to get wetin ten minutes because it's rain coming towards
you. Being able to read thatlandscape, being able to read the water
courses, read the angle of theslope and know what the environment is going
to do to your kit and whatyour kit needs to do to interact with
that environment. That is. Sothat is what bushcraft is. It is

(01:06:01):
that knowledge of knowing where you fitin that landscape, what your equipment,
whether it's made from the stomach ofa red deer or whether it's bought from
Ellis Brigham, what that hit needsto do in that environment in order for
you to do your thing, whetherit's walk or live or hunt or whatever
it is. It's that mental skillset. So bushcraft isn't building things in

(01:06:26):
the woods, despite what you doand an instagram tells you. It is
that inherent knowledge that you need tolive in that environment. You can call
it field craft, you could callit hillcraft, you could call it mountain
craft, whatever, but bushcraft isthe sort of the search engine friendly term.
So I think it's the trending tothem. Yeah, so there's a
magazine on the table that I'm justlooking at them just before we start on

(01:06:49):
the podcast that had a gleeful freemalewalker who was going up a mountain range
very close to me, which isa friend's farm, and this this lady
clearly was having a great time takingup this hill, conquering this hill.
But to my friend Sarah, that'sher checking her sheep and she'll be doing

(01:07:10):
that in boots and gens before takingthe kids to school. Yeah yeah,
or probably having the kids with her. Her bushcraft is hefted to that bit
of ground, whereas Ellen from Birminghamor whoever she was, you know,
that was out of her comfort zonepossibly or her kids had to enable her
to do that, whereas she thinkshe thinks her kit is. But then

(01:07:35):
when you get up onto that areawhere we can and there's this is fifty
sixty hour wins hit. It doesn'tmatter who makes that kit. If your
tent blows away, it's so lateto blaying the tent right, Yeah,
it's your fault, whether it's twohundred quid of Go Outdoors blowing away or
fifty quid from Tesco or seven hundredfor MSR. It's still soarting off down

(01:07:59):
the valley and you're now stuff inyour practice in your bushcraft without your tent,
which is there. What's going tokill on me first? So back
up is a bag or survival,but you haven't done that because it's more
important to feather some sticks and worksbecause you've bought the thing and that thing's

(01:08:20):
at the bottom of your back andyou know it's there. You are safe,
You aren't going to die because youhave the thing and I've never opened.
But having shown any kids doesn't stopyou getting into trouble. Having the
right mentality and the tools in yourhead will stop that. And we spoke
about that when we did our podcast. Was the the divorcing of responsibility by

(01:08:46):
having a named brand and endorsed brandand all the rest. But as as
you go back to all the timemaking the decisions, you know, I
knew halfway up that hill on dayone that I wasn't going to be going
over the top, you know,to try to achieve that the initial goal,
and even you know, I wasformulating my plan to to you know,

(01:09:10):
to fess up and say, hey, guys, I can't do this.
But also I was then looking aroundto say, how can I safely
or you know, as safely aspossible get me because I was just planning
on me at that time to comeback, to come back down and also
getting ready for the big argument wherewe're not going to leave you with learn
and all this type of stuff,But there was none matters like, well,

(01:09:36):
I think we just put you inmisery. Nicole mckit if it wasn't
there. Even Drew would come backon it on the come up in his
shorts and flip flops. Part ofthat how people respond to the environment as

(01:09:59):
well, what group dynamics arelike,what's in the psychology of that, the
psychology of people who are in anenvironment that they thought they understood that they
don't, or because they've got aninjury which has all sorts of effects on
the way they can physically perform,but also their emotional response to that.

(01:10:19):
All of these things are what wouldmake a good mountain leader. These things
do come together to make a skillset that you can only develop by coming
to do these things. You've gotto come out to the hills in a
way that means that if it goeswell, you have a lovely time.
If it goes poorly, you don'tdie. And planning a trip that sits

(01:10:43):
within those brackets best time of yourlife didn't die. That's kind of the
up and lower level. And whenI speak to people about developing their skills
and should you go out in badweather, it's like, well, yes,
you should go out in bad weather, but only in a way that
means that it's safely. Yeah,you are ready to turn around, you
have the kit to deal with it. You are with somebody who can make

(01:11:04):
that call for you, and thenyou now have a data point that saying,
well, I went out with Bill, and Bill's done a lot more
of this than me, and Billsaid, but he held this is terrible.
Let's turn around. I know,yeah, I probably won't go into
that level of condition again. Butif you go out with somebody and they
say, well, it'll be fineif we do this, this and this,

(01:11:25):
or we'll get to this point andmake a decision based on this criteria,
you now have. Okay, Sothat's the thing that makes the difference.
It's not just the wind, it'swhat the wind's doing in exactly that
one point. Yeah, because wedefinitely have that. On day two,
you guys have decided that your limitationswere going to change what you wanted to
do. The number of us allowedus to split the group with the capability

(01:11:53):
between us and our confidence and myconfidence and Richard's great time in the hills
and knowledge of whether on the hillsor on these hills more specifically rather snow
don't know or whatever allowed us togo, Yeah, we can do that.
That's easy. And even if weget up there. We can always

(01:12:13):
turn around come back if it's allAnd like you said, that knowledge of
what weather or wind does around mountainsthat can only be attained from spending time
on task is applicable because we gotup there and it was fairly hellish I
would say nine one where we werebecause we were in this vortex and wind.

(01:12:34):
But we got up to the topand it was mild. It was
we could hold a conversation ten feetapart without without raising a pose when we
heard you check to us and wewere halfway down that valley when you were
waving the poles top, Yeah,we heard that. Well we heard the
Yale definitely. And I think thefear of the unknown. I don't know

(01:12:57):
how much that came into your makingfor your root selection. I think,
to me, yeah, it's relatableexperience. So you know, there's been
cases, there's been times in thepast when you're trying to do something and
you realize you're not going to doit, and then it's having the you
know, the balls to say right, enough is enough, idiot, turn

(01:13:18):
around and go back. But alsoyou know, like if if I'm in
the woods on my own in aday's forest, maintenance. There's there's times
out there when the breeze will getup and the trees start to move differently,
when you know I have to goright, there's time to go home,
or you can just you know,grizz through it. The next thing,
you've got a three term tree overyour legs or something. Yeah,

(01:13:41):
it's just relating, and everyone canrelate from different experiences of what you do
in your daily life to that pointwhere you make the decision we go on
or go back. You're really asgood as your actual experiences. Following the
route of somebody else, following theguidance of somebody else in a book or
in one of the Root Guys andTrail Maga or something like that. You've
got to understand that when you're pickingthat up, what you're doing is picking

(01:14:03):
up a theoretical You're picking up Okay, if I follow this theoretically, I'm
going to have the same experience asthe person who wrote this or the person
who did this group before me.But the variances in your kids, the
weather on the day, your fitness, your emotional state at that point,
your mental health, not just theweather the weather before. Yeah, that

(01:14:24):
the fact how dry the ground isthe state of strange bridges likes everything range
you And when I come up herein winter, I'm looking at the weather
forecast from two weeks before, becausethat helps tell me what will happened in
the terms of avalanche risk. Whenyou do come up here in the cell,
it would have been a different,you know, a whole different sort
of get together and decision making.If we'd got up to that campsite and

(01:14:45):
that was just that was just blackbog. Yeah, there's no standing water
at all because the higher we gotup those rivers and the little re entrances
got drier and drier and drier.The in fact we were next to that
little lock and yeah, made campsign. Yeah, but you know that could
have easily been dry. And thenas we climbed onto the ridge the number

(01:15:06):
of smaller lockers that were less weighyou know, slightly probably better catsites actually,
which was what half an hour extratwo hundred meters of extrascent to get
to them. Yeah, at theend of day one, with your opinion,
hit too heavy or legs a bittoo bit too jazzed, a bit

(01:15:28):
too old. Yeah, thats howit changes your making good decisions. Well,
the good decisions. Is that wasa good decision. Well, somebody
says, yeah, this is wherethis is my turnaround point. That is
a thousand times better than the personwho then just keels over in a place
that's much harder to get someone outof or they can't get to it.

(01:15:50):
You know, I've done that ontrips before, often that when I was
in Mountain rescue saying, I putmy hand up halfway through through a search
and went, you know, I'mnot enough sleep for this. Basically of
no use here whatsoever. I'm goingback to my car to sleep. It's
having that self reflection as well asa think important part of that, and

(01:16:11):
that's what trips like this are value. Before we didn't we didn't achieve anything
in the grand scheme of things.We didn't save alive. We didn't find
the hidden treasure of whatever. Didn'tfind no. I didn't find MESSI or
I still just modered. I didn'tsee no Orthough we did find the best
oatmeal stout I've ever drunk, whichis the the old Forge punid Art,

(01:16:35):
which is worth a visit. AndI discovered that when I remembered I had
a hip flask of dura in mybag. You all became a lot more
tolerable. We lost it was inverse. Yes, I did become what irritating
last night? So I think theyfound at Booger Traptor's door with potato crisps.

(01:16:57):
Do not find that? Ye?Yes I did. Yes, that's
gonna be bot isn't it. SoOn that note, I think we'll end
the show, probably not gonna haveto show for this one, just because
I think the important information is probablyworth sharing with the public. But we

(01:17:17):
have something else maybe to share instead, So I'm going to cut this off.
Amy's going to splice in the extrabits and hopefully the audio quality wasn't
too bad. Thank you, gentlemen, both for the weekend and the podcast.
Thank you, thank you what itwas, thank you and the accommodation.

(01:17:45):
Thank you for listening to this episodeof Modern Outdoor Survival from Original Outdoors.
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(01:18:08):
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(01:18:30):
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nice retro way of going about things. I'm going to leave you now with

(01:18:55):
our three principles of Modern Outdoor Survivaland they are one, make good decisions
at the right times. Number two. Prioritize training over shiny new equipment.
Number three, remember Instagram is notyour training provider. Bye.