Ben Moss

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Governments deny, militaries deny, eventhe mainstream media denies it. But they
are here, and they've been herefor a very long time. The Mutual
UFO Network has been on the frontlines uncovering the truth since nineteen sixty nine,
and now we're sharing that truth withyou. Welcome to move on?

(00:28):
What's Up? With your hosts KatiePaige, Shane Heard and Tara guy juis
exclusively on the KGRA Digital Broadcasting Networkwondering What's up Sorrow week? What's up

(00:52):
everybody? It is Tuesday night andyou are listening to move on? What's
Up Radio? The show that saysdiscovery starts with curiosity, and Curiosity starts
with Moufon, brought to you byKGr A dB dot com. It is
so good to be here with youall this week. Happy February. I
hope you are all are doing well. I want to say, as always,

(01:15):
we're endorsed by moufon the Mutual UFONetwork, always asking that all important
question, are we alone in theuniverse? I wanted to also bring up
a couple of great events that arecoming up this spring and summer. We
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(01:36):
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all the events, special events theyhave at Contact in the Desert dot com
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so that is going to be anIrving Texas July eleventh through July fourteenth,

(01:57):
and you can go to the symposiumdot com to get your tickets for that
and to learn more about the speakersthey're going to have their and their special
events as well, So please makesure you check out both Contact and the
Desert dot com and move On Symposiumdot com. They're gonna be great,
awesome events to bring it summer.I'm your host, Katie Page. I
am Colorado Movefon Field Investigator. Irecently stepped down a state director, have

(02:22):
been real busy, have a loton my plate, and we have the
awesome, amazing Seth Feistein took overa state director, so I'm happy for
Seth. Congratulations to Seth. Andyeah, so let's please bring in our
co host, Tara Dulus. Taradilute, dilute. I haven't been drinking.

(02:43):
Oh, I swear there's just teain here. Nobodka. My gosh,
I'm tripping over my words. Anyway, I believe you know me.
Cheers water. You can see Tararight here on KJR sky to our live
stream with Mark D'Antonio as well.Tara is all up on her astronomy,

(03:05):
and I'm indious of that because it'sfun fun, that's funny. That's as
to it. We have a terrificguest for you tonight. We have Ben
Moss. Ben Moss is a goodfriend of mine. He's out there in
Virginia and he wrote the book onSocorro. So we're gonna cover a different
things. We're not gonna be justtalking about Sacora with Ben. We're going

(03:28):
to cover some other different things.But we're of course going to touch on
Secora because you know, they workeda lot, a lot of years on
that case. But I can't waitto bring Ben on here in a little
bit. But do you have ameme to share with us tonight? Oh,
of course, of course. Sotoday's meme takes place in the library
where two aliens are browsing the humanbiology section and sitting nearby as a librarian

(03:50):
looks up in surprise as she hearsan alien say wow, look, this
could have saved us so many abductions. Ha ha. So all they had
to do, you know, wecould have given them a library card and
saved a lot of people of hassl. Right, Oh my gosh, I
wonder what the one book that saysthe most about human nature. I have

(04:15):
some thoughts going in my head.They're not good ones. The Big Library
could be anything, right, They'renot so nice of humanity. Anyway.
I've refermed to Shakespeare or something,so oh that's good. Yeah, that's
well, that's my favorite. Sotoday I have for you something. So

(04:36):
many years ago I came across thesefun little drawings that represent the types of
alien scene and reported from the startsfrom nineteen forty seven to present day.
And so I've seen these drawings andI've had them. They're little, teeny
tiny little slits of things and thisfun chart. It can be found at

(04:57):
Joe Nickel dot com and you goto the press page there, and Joe
Nichol has been called the real lifeSkully from the X Files. Just so
you know, and for the pastfour decades. He's been a serious investigator
who believes that mysteries should actually beinvestigated with a view towards solving them.
Huh. So you can see downthere there's a little picture, but in

(05:20):
there is the alien timeline, andit has been updated into a poster format,
and I thought it might be funto share it with you and go
through this briefly with you. Thatit would be so fun. I'm gonna
have to get that poster for sure. Do you think maybe we should try
to get him as a guest ona show? Ooh, that would be
interesting. Yes, I say yes, try, Okay. I to chart

(05:44):
well, this time I starts outin nineteen forty seven when the flying Saucer
craze begins, and that you knowthat, of course, is the time
of the Oswell crash. And thenin the fifties brought the bizarre uf Landing
report involving the West Virginia Flatwood's monsterand what a stranger can creature that is.
Of course, these are stylized drawingsfor fun, but it gives us

(06:04):
kind of a representation of what peoplewere actually seeing or reporting. So the
next one, also in the fifties, were a lot of this is a
good one, Harry Dwarfs. Oh, yep, there we go. So
that was really Colmon. And thenafter that a lot of goblins were seen,
and also the Blob, which thatmovie came out in September of nineteen

(06:29):
fifty eight. So there's a twoB guy there in nineteen fifty six.
Not strange, Yeah, with thosetubes coming out of his head right like
in Elberg County. How cool isthat? Mm hmm. So then in
the nineteen sixties brought the abduction ofBetty and Barney Hill, and you know
there's a ten foot Slyholps there too, in nineteen sixty three. So then

(06:51):
came the Mothman. And doesn't thatlittle fellow next to him look like bib
that the michelin man man. That'sright, That's what it looks like to
me. I'm like, what's hedoing here? Oh my gosh. Then
on January twenty fifth, nineteen sixtyseven, Betty and Dreesen saw humanoids about

(07:11):
four feet in height, gray skinwith large, slanted wrap around eyes and
oversized heads. Slits for mouths soundfamiliar. On their left shoulder was an
emblem resembling a bird with outstretched wingsshe also saw some strange creatures there too,
very very strange. So okay.So going on in the seventies brought

(07:32):
a host of creatures, including aten foot tall, three eyed giant and
looks like there's a little brain downthere. In nineteen seventy one, kind
of oh man, now that wouldbe free Gate Sea blob. It has
a little more substance than the blob. It looks like, oh my gosh.
Okay. So in nineteen seventy threeyou get the six foot tall insectoids

(07:58):
along with the sasquat And notice howthey have a ufo next to the sasquatch
there. Oh, is there aconnection? Yeah, I wonder I think
that's interesting. So they were reportedback then. So it was in nineteen
seventy five that Travis Walton was abductedfrom the National Forest here in Arizona.
And now those were just people,just a little under about five feet tall.

(08:22):
And then from there you get intothese strange creatures, including a rectilion
and a fairy. And this isin the seventies, your favorite favorite,
the micheline man meets a cat inthe middle. Yes, that's hilarious.
And then there's a there's kind ofa walrus looking guy at the end.
Okay, in nineteen eighty three,we have the lizard man. It looks

(08:46):
like maybe doesn't he look like thecreature from the Black Lagoon. Do any
of you guys remember that movie?He sure knew it was so funny.
Possibly aliens too, yes, littlewebbed fingers. And then it brings us
to our current standard novelty art conceptionof the green alien with the large slanted
eyes and just under five ft anda lot of these sightings too, I

(09:11):
know Travis Walton and others they hadthese types of beings encountered along with like
Nordics, right for Yasladians, theseblonde, blue eyed palls. They are
often seen together, or you havedifferent types of e t races like two
or different two or three different typestogether, the Reptilian, the gray and

(09:33):
the Nordic. Like yeah, somepeople believe we have a council, right
or a yactic federation, those kindof things. So that is just a
really really cool poster. Well evenlike Chanelsa, some of those are terrifying
and can you I mean, theseare a cute little drawings, cartoon like,
but obviously we don't have pictures ofthem. So these are just reported

(09:54):
artists renditions, but they're really cool. And again you can find these on
Joe Nickel dot com and he hasthere where you'll find lots of information,
including over thirty books that he haswritten, and of course this fun interesting
alien timeline chart. So yeah,I just thought that was kind of fun
and different for today. So yeah, no, that's very cool. Thank

(10:16):
you for putting that all together.That's really neat, neat, neat neat
stuff. All right, So Iknow you can go to MoveOn dot com
right now and get be a memberof the Project Aquarius, where you have
access to the Mars historical cases aswell as drawings and old move On symposium

(10:39):
journals. That is chuck full ofreally valuable historical information. What do you
have tonight to share from us fromthe Mars files. Well, like Katie
is saying, go get your librarycard, everybody, go to move on
dot com, get your library card. It's worth it, and investigate all
these cases. Actually, I thinkwe have a little advertisement bit than you

(11:00):
about that. Can we run thatreal question? No, that would be
great. We have a little bitof time. Let's go ahead and run
that little clip that was all hotI'm Ethan here at the headquarters of the
mutual UFO Network. Are you lookingfor the ultimate gift for a loved one
this Christmas? We have a uniqueand important idea for the UFO investigator in

(11:20):
your family, introducing the new ProjectAquarius Digital Library. It will be offered
as a standalone fifty dollars annual subscriptionto the public, no membership necessary,
and will also be part of ournew Research Level membership. The Project Aquarius
Digital Library will consist of seven roomsgoing forward. Initially, this is where
you can enter any room by simplyclicking on a door. Room one contains

(11:43):
over six thousand pages of Mars PaperUFO reports mailed to move On between nineteen
sixty seven and nineteen ninety five.Room two will be a drawings gallery of
witness submissions, initially consisting of overseven thousand illustrations from our one hundred and
thirty five thousand UFO report database.Room three a public domain library of thousands

(12:05):
of newspaper articles. No subscription ormembership will be needed for this room.
Room four will contain all Moufon journalsbetween nineteen sixty seven and twenty ten.
Room five will be a private ResearchersCollection room that will launch in stages.
Among these collections will be those ofBob Pratt, Colonel Edward Rupelt of Project

(12:26):
Blue Book, and Leonard Stringfield.Room six will contain all Moufon Symposium preceding
booklets between nineteen seventy one through twothousand and two, with the more recent
ones being scanned in now. Throughouttwenty twenty four, Aquarius will be expanded
to include more collections, the MJtwelve files, and finally a multi level
interactive UFO map. Pre Sales beginon December twenty and then access will begin

(12:50):
on December thirty first, twenty twentythree. No Moufon membership is needed for
the fifty dollars library card in ourMovefon store. Go to mofon dot com
and click on the store menu atthe top of our home page. Research
level memberships include our E Journal,Paper Journal, move On TV, Research
Level, gift Box, Researcher LevelCertificate, and finally the Project Aquarius Library.

(13:13):
Click on our join button on ourMoveOn dot com homepage to join today.
There is a reason we are numberone in the field. We export
our knowledge to you in ways noother UFO research organization on Earth? Can
we are moved on all right?Cool? That is totally worth the fifty

(13:33):
bucks. So I hope everybody goesand gets a library card. So what
do you have for us to share? Well? For today's Mars case comes
to us from Charlotte, North Carolina, where in December of nineteen seventy seven,
two MoveOn field investigators were on theirway to interview a witness who had
sightings while they were a marine pilotin the nineteen fifties. So these investigators

(13:58):
were on their way to me thisreporting party. And it was about eight
fifteen PM, and the men wereabout a half mile from their target location.
And see where that red circle is. That's actually where they pulled over.
They both noticed a landing light approachingfrom the southwest. So the light
was reported to have an unusual orangecast, and so they watched the object

(14:22):
make a banking turn and move northeastto southwest. So they pulled over to
that intersection and they got out ofthe vehicle and pulled out their binoculars.
You didn't have those field investigators areJohnny on the spots and stuff. The
object was reported to be a largeorange light with a whitish mass above it,
and there were no running lights.As it passed in front of the

(14:46):
investigators, an orange ball was ejecteddownwards and then it disappeared. One second
later it happened again, and ina third time, an orange ball was
ejected downwards. The object continued forwardand then finally disappeared into a cloud bank.
So the investigators return the next day. So there's the picture. You

(15:07):
can see the great drawing. Youcan see them down near the bottom.
I'm looking up with their binoculars andthe UFO at the top and showing the
one second interviews intervals with the orangeballs dropping down and disappearing just above those
power lines and trees. So theinvestigators returned the next day and noted the

(15:31):
power lines, and it was theirestimation that the UFO would have been about
two hundred excuse me, two thousandfeet directly over those power lines. They
determined the identifile the closest identifiable objectwould be a plasma ball or a hoax
like a plastic balloon. So theduration and altitude negates bail plasma ball and

(15:56):
the constant downward speed of the ejectedorange ball, their distance of their drop
and along with the continuation of theUFO after those were ejected negates a hoax
balloon. So these investigators don't knowwhat it was. Could it have been
something like a lens flare. Iwonder if they considered that, and I

(16:17):
wonder if there were military bases nearby. That's a really good question, A
good good question because there this basicallywas the report and the investigator's own report.
But basically it was only about fourpages long. Wow, so very
short. But it'd be interesting togo and see if there are more cases

(16:38):
related to this one in the archivebecause a lot of times these Mars cases,
you have five, six, sevenor eight files on one case,
and they sometimes they are duplicates,but a lot of times they contained different
information. So, like we talkedabout before, they really did the leg

(17:00):
work back in the day, youknow, contacting the police departments and you
know, rate all sorts of things. I mean, they really did most
of the time. You have multiplepage reports that are very in depth.
But it's never too late to goback and reopen and reinvestigate a case.
I mean the seventies, That's whatI was going to mention about the poster

(17:21):
you shared, you know, theseventies has always been sort of my favorite
decade for obvious reasons to investigate.But it's interesting how the UFOs and the
etis that our spoted kind of havechanged through the decades, Like that poster
so graphically shows. In the seventieswe had a lot of these crafts that
have landed where you have the emblemson their looping forms, or they're like

(17:47):
in scuba diving suits, black whityou know, different kind of belts with
tools and things, or you havethe reports of the aliens up working under
the craft and stuff like that.You don't hear that so much today,
you No, no, you don't. And in fact, I think that
saccor O case that we were talkingabout, you know what our guest has,
I think those Yes, I thinkwe'll have to ask him. But

(18:11):
those those humanoids that were seen mighthave been working on their craft. I'm
curious about that. Yeah, Ithink I think it is speculated that it
was running into some sort of troublebecause it was kind of at a slant.
And you know, we'll ask theexpert about that. Do you want
to bring him on in now?Would be a great Yeah, let's bring
gooble let me read his biol getso. Ben Moss is Ben Moss is

(18:34):
a UFO researcher, investigator, andauthor of Not of This World, The
Secora UFO Landing with Humanoids. Benhas investigated over one hundred UFO cases and
is a former move On field investigatoras well as the chief field investigator from
moof On Virginia. Ben formed hisown company, the UFO Guys, LLC,

(18:55):
which can be found on Facebook,which is dedicated to the study of
the UFO phenomena. Ben has beena frequent guest speaker at numerous UFO conferences
for several years. He has alsoappeared as a guest research researcher on Netflix,
the History Channel, the Travel Channel, that Geo, and the Discovery
Channel. Ben is currently working tocapture his own instrumental UFO evidence to be

(19:18):
scientifically analyzed in order to show proofof non human propulsion using science with an
understanding of history, physics, andall the other related proven scientific methods.
He is attempting to prove that someUFOs are not of this world. Please
welcome to the show, Ben Moss. Hello, Hey Ben, Ben,

(19:41):
how's it going. It's going.It's uh, you know, it's uh.
What is today Monday? Since AmerginTuesday Tuesday, Tuesday night. I
know that. Yeah, it's hardto keep track anymore, isn't it.
We got the year so, Ben, I hear just recently or just like

(20:02):
four or five hours ago, therewas some breaking news and ufology that you
filled me in on right before wecame on here. Do you want to
share what that is and we couldtalk a little bit about this. Yeah.
Basically, Abby Lobe, who youknow, with the interstellar object that
came in from another Solar system,was speculating that that was a you know,
a scout ship from another civilization.But he went out he got I

(20:26):
can't remember where you got the moneyfrom, but he went out into the
ocean to find what he felt wasthe downing of probably a meteor from another
Solar system. And what they'd beenanalyzing this stuff for a while and what
they found was announced today was that, you know, the material has things

(20:49):
like beryllium, latinum, uranium andthings like that. They're found on Earth,
but they don't match our planet's alloys. The way to tell that something's
from outside the Solar System is it'sgoing to be it's gonna have isotopes which
are different from those materials like uraniumon Earth, and it's going to be
arranged in patterns that don't match Earth'salloys. And so that's a pretty big

(21:12):
discovery that this object that crashed theocean probably came from another solar system,
because there's only been two objects thatcame into all Solar system that we knew
from outside of it, and theone I can't pronounce it correctly, but
it was the Hawaiian name for scalpor something like. Yeah, hard to

(21:33):
pronounce, but that's pretty interesting.It would be great to see what the
you know, the composition, whatthe isotope ratios are of that material to
further prove that it was from somewhereelse, and then you can kind of
get an idea of how these elementsform outside of our solar system. Right,
that's a good point. Now you'repretty good friends or real good friends

(21:55):
with Ray Stanford. Can you tellus who Ray Stanford is and what you
know his backstory is, and thentalk to me a little bit about hasn't
he been studying like propulsion systems andthat kind of you know, seeing I
don't know what you call it,but something around these craft that are photographed.
Can you tell us a little bitabout who he is? And yeah,

(22:18):
Ray Stanford was a good friend ofdoctor Heinez. He was absolutely the
first, you know, I heara lot of people make this claim,
but Ray was the first person todo instremitted studies at UFOs. He actually
had built out in Texas with atwo million dollar grant from Rockefeller. He
had built his own radar system,He had an argon laser, he had

(22:41):
magnetometers, gravimeters. He was actuallymeasuring things about UFOs that nobody had ever
done before sea And if you goto YouTube, he with Jeffrey misch Love
PhD has a lot of interviews withRay where he shows a lot of this
evidence and the craft that he,you know, has he's identified and a

(23:02):
lot of this has come out recentlywith other people, but Ray was really
the first to kind of discover thisthat you know, these fields around these
craft are obviously some after effect ofthe propulsion. Personally, I think that
Ray has found that these objects weresurrounded by a static shell. That's Tony
and I with Gray a year orso ago. But they're surrounded by a

(23:22):
static shell which I think has itsown gravity or the gates gravity and that's
why they can move they do.He's also identified that in one of his
films that this object shot an energybeam which was maybe a type of plasma
beam out in front of it.And when he actually had visitors from JPL

(23:42):
come out, they got the ideato kind of explore this further, and
in the lab they showed that pushingthis beam out in front of an object
displaces the air, so that you'renot really you know when you break the
sound bearer boom, because the airis displaced and it makes traveling faster easier.
So Raised a pioneer, he was. He was the person of the

(24:03):
week on ABC News when he discoveredthe dinosaur footprints of Goddard at the Goddard
Center in Maryland. Wow, alot of evidence. He's a really sharp
guy. He's eighty seven now andwhen Tony and I first started seeing him,
we visit. We spent hundreds ofhours with him. You can't go
to Raise and not spend at leasteight hours. Doesn't he have like a

(24:26):
huge collection of minerals, asteroids andfossils and whatnot. Yeah, he's got
he's got a lot of South Americanart. He's got a whole bunch of
meteorites. The Smithsonian people come afterall the time to look at his stuff,
and they keep saying, Ray,when when the incomes, can he

(24:47):
donate some of this stuff to us, because he's got a better collection with
a lot of this than they do. One of the interesting things is he's
got these little these thousands of yearsold disc that they had this game where
they would have this they would rollthis disc into a larger disc from civilization,
you know, thousand, two thousandyears old. That was kind of

(25:08):
mimicking a Ufolk sitings, you know, the smaller object into a bigger object.
And a lot of these objects thatare really old have rings around him.
It look like windows. Ray wouldcall them magnetic events. But a
lot of the work, the artworkthat these civilizations did from a long time
ago, do depict disc shape objects. So he's got a little bit of

(25:30):
everything. I mean, the guy'sreally smart. He speaks four languages,
He's been all over the world.He was a good friend of doctor Heinez.
That's one of the pictures. Soif you look at those curtainly looks
like saucers, and those are allat at least five hundred to maybe fifteen
hundred years old. Wow, thatis where did he find these things?

(25:52):
Ray buys a lot of things online. He knows what to look for,
and he buys things that people knowwhat they have. He buys like things
that are out of meteorites and theydon't even know the person selling it doesn't
know it. Or he'll buy meteoritesonline. And he's got a huge catalog
of his wife, his catalog,everything he has. But one of our

(26:12):
visits out there, he let ushandle a piece of Mars. He has
a comment or when a meteorite hitsMars that dejects some of the material which
eventually falls to Earth a piece ofmercury and a piece of the moon.
So I kind of traveled the Solarsystem by going to Ra's house. Wow,

(26:32):
that's a short way to do it. Good point there. Yeah,
people go to YouTube to look atthose videos because really has the goods.
He has a lot of the stillsfrom his film. I'm still trying to
talk him into digitizing the film.And my last conversation with him last week
when I hadn't heard from him ina while, they both got COVID.

(26:56):
But he's got a machine that candigitize some of his footage. I'm going
to go out and help him dothat and hopefully see some of the things
that I've seen, all the slidesfrom all in his powerful right. Kay,
that is amazing. I was gonnahave you sent me some images of
the Trent UFO case. Let's justgo ahead and talk about that. If

(27:21):
you can give us a little bitof brief histy of what this is,
and then we can share these photosyou have of that, because I think
that kind of goes along with whatRay Stanford talks about. You know,
I think you could see an auraor something around those photos. And I
do believe there. I mean,to me, they look very much authentic.
Yeah. Mcmahville. Nineteen fifty four, Paul Trent his wife were kind

(27:47):
of out and they saw this object. He managed to get two pictures of
it. But it was a disshapeobject which looks like a protrusion on top.
And there's been a lot of speculation. I know that Bruce mcabee looked
at the film and said, thisis real. But this picture, and
you can see this in the originalphoto, there is a downflow underneath that
object. And the Paul Trent saidwhen the object tilted. They got hit

(28:10):
by a wash of hot air,and that's what this downflow is. It's
like plasma or something another again anotherform of propulsion. But the object was
pretty much solid. It was twentyto thirty feet in diameter. He has
two pictures. It wasn't hanging fromthe telephone wire. It's behind the telephone
wire, which people have speculated,but for a hoax. If somebody were

(28:33):
to hoax this in nineteen fifty four, nobody would think to put a downflow
underneath the craft. Plus, withthis type of emulsion it was a Polary
camera. Baking things with the Polaricamera and putting that in there is virtually
impossible in nineteen fifty four, especiallyfor a farmer. And the pictures languished
in a front of a store forsix months, and then they were under
his couch and then the government gotit, and the government actually sent him

(28:56):
back to him, but they couldn'tforget what it was. So when Ray
did the analysis of this, andTony and I duplicated, we found the
down flow quite easily. Race.You know, you can see there's a
surrounding field around this object, whichis again some type of function of pulsion.
Because they can move in any way, which is not you know,

(29:19):
bending to our laws of physics.They don't seem to follow gravity or the
physics of our world. But inthe contrasts in the middle of that photo,
you can see the heavy downflow andthe fact that they felt this warm
blast of air when it tilted towardsthem, right, And you've heard that
in other cases as well, thatthese crafts seem to like tilt on their

(29:40):
sides and then woo, which itgoes right along with what you yeah,
right, So they're kind of inthis bubble where you know, everything is
cozy and warm there, and they'renot feeling the inertia, probably not aging,
Is that true? Bend? Doyou think what gravity on some of

(30:02):
these things, just like what we'redoing with the things we send out other
planets. I think a lot ofthese things are autonomous drones, the self
repairing drones probably if they have anysome might have life on them, but
mostly I would imagine there's some typeof clone or AI robot, or maybe
the machine itself is AI. Butyou know, on the distances they must

(30:25):
be coming, it seems like they'dbe doing what we're doing. We're sending
probes. We're sending out things totry to figure out what's out there,
and a lot of these things doseem to be autonomous. It's just when
you try to wrap your head aroundall of this, you have to imagine
if a civilization is, say athousand years ahead of us, what if

(30:45):
it's five thousand and fifty thousand,five million years ahead of us? It
would just look like magic. Ithink a lot of the things we're seeing
are not that old. There maybe in a ten thousand year range.
But you know, when you travel, if you can go fashion the speed
of light, probably through a wormholeor however they travel. When you approach
speed a light, of course,time slows down. So like if we

(31:07):
somebody left Earth for fifty years andcame back, they might have aged six
months, whereas everybody else is fiftyyears older. Right, That makes a
lot of sense. Yeah, yeah, So then you talked about there's the
ten year range. What did youmean by that? How Well? I

(31:27):
can't remember what I said. Okay, yeah, look, well we can
just go on. So you're you'reabout the drones and stuff, and you
you were thinking that that maybe theseare are AI. Do you think like
these giant ones like the tic TACsthey saw would might have life inside those

(31:48):
because they're big enough to contain lifeas we know it. Yeah, there's
there's an interesting story if you rememberthe J A. L. Japan Airlines
that had the big acorn shape objectfollowing it. That was a Japanese pilot
on a cargo plane that got anobject came to it with three objects that

(32:09):
came out of it that was biggerthan several battleships put together. I mean,
just a tremendous object in it showedup on radar at multiple military bases
when you were flying from Alaska,and I talked to or either read I've
discussed this with Joe mcconagall, whowas the number one remote viewer for the

(32:32):
Air Force or for the Army,and Joe remote viewed this thing and said
that that object seemed to be thinkingthat the plane, the airplane, the
Boeing that they were in, wasone of its objects and it was there
to collect it. And it's interestinghypothesis that maybe these big mother ships drop
off smaller ships at various planets andcome back around to pick them up,

(32:57):
or replicates them or repairs them.Gads as the data and then lets them
out again. But that was prettyinteresting that he came up with that,
and the way the thing was acting. I'm glad it didn't suck the plane
into it. We've never had thisstory, but it seemed confused by the
airplane and that's why it was trailingit because they made him make a complete
three hundred and sixty degree turn,and this large object actually turned inside of

(33:20):
him, which means it was goingmuch faster than the airplane, which takes
miles to make that kind of aturn. So it's you know, there's
all kinds of theories, you know, is it us from the future?
Is us? Is its aliens?Is it in a dimensional is it multi
dimensional? Is it something that's alwaysbeen on the Earth but it's in another
plane of existence that nobody really knows. I mean, anybody said they know

(33:42):
what UFOs are is not telling thetruth right, right, And I'm really
glad that we're taking a more scientificapproach to look at photographs and videos and
looking at you know, artifacts.I know, we have camera artifacts and
pictures, yeah, and reflections andthat, but it does appear that these

(34:04):
craft are admitting some sort of emissionsoutside of the structure. And you mentioned
a Faraday ring, Ben, whatis a Faraday ring? A fair Day
rings? You can see Fara Dayrings actually when we launched the shuttle.
It's it's it's the thing about thesecraft, the things they produce is some

(34:31):
type of function of the propulsion whichwe can't understand. These pictures are from
Ray's video and you can see theFara Day rings in the air, which
are you know, they give offthese electromagnetic pulses. And he has this
huge magnetometer which measures changes in theEarth's magnetic field. Everything that's metallic gives

(34:51):
off. How you change lights withyour car, you drive over a plate,
it registers your electromagnetic field that knowsyou're waiting for the light changes the
light. So when this magnetometer wouldgo off, he'd run outside catch a
UFO. And that's why the instrumentstudy of UFOs is so important. To
use these devices. But this isan object that's obviously kind of bending the

(35:13):
space around it. They do createtheir own type of atmosphere, but true
UFOs have usually a field around them, which is something about the propulsion.
They can warp the background, theenvironmental background behind them. They do give
off electromagnetic pulse or electric or magneticfrequency, so a magnetometry will alert you

(35:34):
when it's really powerful. Other manmade objects will do that also, but
like the space shovel. But thebreak catchering these in film was easily the
first person to do that. Soyou know, it's just a matter of
trying to figure out how they actuallywork. Right, Hey, Chanel,
can you pop that picture up onemore time? I just have a quick

(35:54):
comment about it because it looks sofamiliar that that little square at the top,
where has that round object from nineteenseventy seven ufhone, It looks like
it has little protrusions coming off ofthis sphere. We are seeing these within

(36:15):
moufon cases. In the last coupleof years a really good case came.
It almost looks like these little eggcornswith these little bumps, and I just
wanted to make that. Yeah,and the picture down there in the bottom
two so it's not the first timeI've seen these, and I think you're
right, Ben, to me,those would appear to me to be more
like a drone or a scouting chipor something like that. In fact,

(36:38):
Ben and Tony gave a great presentationjust recently in Maryland at the Space and
Sky what it's called the space?Yeah, this raised the Space and Sky
and there's a clip in there.Yeah, there's a clip in there.
I'd like to share because this,too, is something that we've seen recently
with Moufon and maybe Ben can talka little bit of out this. But

(37:00):
it's this object that comes comes intoscreen and then it almost looks like the
object just disappears in morphs over hereand then shoots straight up in the sky.
And again, this isn't the firsttime we've seen this, I think
it. Where was this video taken? Was it Uruguay? Is that the
one? I believe that Uruguay?Okay, So if we can run that

(37:23):
video, Chanel, it's pretty compelling. Two you can see the field around
it, the black above and belowit. Yeah, it's a good example
of the field we're talking about.So it seems to just kind of warp
out or go through a little Lookat that just shoot up here, like

(37:45):
isn't that? Yeah, pop,look at you can't see the field on
it there? Boom and then thepresentation. We only picked videos that we
thought were legit. You know,it's some backg look at that. Wow?

(38:07):
So is this what the regular cameraor do you have infrared that you're
using. This will only show upon the camera. You can't see it
usually with a naked eye, butnow this is a regular camera. The
more spectral camera you have, themore you're going to get data out of
the object. And the thing isthat these feels that's around the object.
A lot of times the side ofthe shape of the object is not what

(38:29):
you're seeing, it's something else.This thing kind of warps the atmosphere to
the point where a big bright ballmight be completely a different shape, but
you're not going to see it becauseall the magnetic venting and all the methods
coming off of that. And itjust seems like the best cases are when
you can actually see a shape.But with something like that, I have

(38:50):
no idea what the shape of thatthing was well, and the camera could
have distorted it as well, ifthey were auto focusing or something. So
you have the camera's going to pickmore than you can with the naked eye.
It's like, you know a lotof people take pictures and say I
didn't see this at the time,but something might have been shooting across the
screen and they just had to snapa photo and caught it, you know,
right as it was going across theright. Yeah, some of the

(39:15):
best footage that you guys had inthat presentation. Some of these objects are
moving so incredibly fast, like unlessyou're slowing it down, I don't know
one hundred times even you would evenknow what you're looking at. So it
just seems to reason that we're capturingthese more often than people think. But
they're just going so fast we don'tnotice them. But in those cases they

(39:37):
seem like they're smaller craft. Andyou bring up a good point, Ben,
I mean, when you have thisamount of distortion around these objects,
it's hard to tell often tell whatthe shapes are that we're looking at.
Yeah, one of the I shouldhave just I just remembered one of the
videos. Towards the end of thepresentation, we showed a video and this

(39:59):
is something that I've seen some goodinvestigative work on TV lately with I watched
Tearing the Sky. Tearing the Skyhad a lot of equipment there. The
one thing they were missing was whatthis guy had at very high speed,
like fourteen thousand frames per second cameraAnd we showed a guy set a camera
down his backyard and shot for threeseconds and he caught four different objects,

(40:24):
one popping an object out of itand all this happened in three seconds.
And so if these things are flyingaround us at thirty thousand miles an hour
or whatever or not breaking the soundbear, we never see it. You
know, they could be right aboveour heads and we never see it.
But it's interesting with high speed cryptographythat you may be able to see that

(40:45):
these things are all over the place. And if I'm be remembering correctly,
in that three second video, itwas something similar to what we just showed
that like morphed locations and then overhere you're seeing this thing and kind of
go who like up, like itmakes this weird dust particle or something close

(41:07):
to the lens is not gonna moveit, right, Yeah, no,
clearly. And my favorite one thatyou guys showed is this one out of
the water. So this was acrowded beach ben if you can kind of
walk us through this out of thewater video, it's a beach near the
naval station. There is a jetgoing by, and they're not gonna fly

(41:30):
at the speed of sound, whichis seven hundred and sixty one miles per
hour close to a beach because thatwould freak everybody out and be really loud.
But the jet is probably going aboutsix hundred miles an hour. And
the gentleman that took this video andnever noticed it until he slowed down.
And the jet in the video wesee is barely moving. Yet this object

(41:51):
comes out of the water with asplash, leaving some water coming trailing off.
But unlike some of your foes,that don't seem to have that happen.
And it goes up, it lookslike it's rotating, looks like a
triangle. It's rotating, which I'veseen the same thing from the ISS Space
station. It would be nice tocompare the two. But then goes past
the camera and the estimate I believewas three to five thousand miles per hour

(42:16):
and it came out near a swimmer, which is really free. Wow.
Yeah, and there was quite afew people on the beach too, so
yeah, some people wanted to sayit was a duck or a quail.
I'm like, they didn't have theability to slow it down like we do
now. So you would like ifyou could please run that out of the
water video clip, that'd be great. Bottom right, Yeah, there you

(42:38):
go see the jet is barely moving. You can see this thing flashing.
I believe it's Rota tumbling. Yeah, almost looks pyramidal. Look at that.
Oh my gosh there Yeah, lookat the water. See the displacement.

(43:00):
That is one of the coolest videoclips and nobody saw it. Yeah.
Well, if it's moving that fast, uh yeah, it's going thousands
of miles per hour to be ableto pass plans just standing still. Yeah,
very interesting that this just shows youthat advanced technology is I think Carl

(43:21):
Sagan would say it would look likemagic to us. Right. Do you
believe, Ben, that these thingsare hiding beneath our oceans? Yeah?
Trans medium objects have been described forcenturies. I believe that the ocean is
a good place to hang around.But there's a lot of data that can
gather out about the planet by beingin the oceans, and they can do

(43:43):
a lot of things without being detected. Yeah. So, Ben, do
you think that do you have inall your research and stuff? Do you
think a lot of these are areus and our technology that's just being hidden
from us. Have you seen anyindication of that? I know that Ray

(44:06):
had photographed a couple of objects whichwere definitely ours. He got wind of
a triangular shaped object, a longtriangle that was going to be flown over
the Pentagon for some generals back inninety seven. And I've seen that picture
and it's our tech, and ithas a plume behind it. Most UFOs
do not have a plume behind itbecause they don't need a combustion engine.

(44:30):
They don't need to burn something tomove through the air. I think that
some of the early photos of thesedelta wing craft, sure, those were
probably ours. Some of them outin California were photographed in your area fifty
one in military bases. But likeI've said about the UAP study where they

(44:50):
said it might be an adversary,that's kind of one of the worst explanations
because that's the most scariest explanation.If any adversary has this tech, a
lot of trouble, and I don'tbelieve they have it. And that's why
I think all China or Russia they'reall scrambling trying to figure out what these
things are because if they can gettheir hands on it, or have got
their hands on it, you neverknow where wonder Ron Braun got all these

(45:14):
ideas for the V two missile,which became the Apollo mission. But that's
kind of a scary thought. Idon't think they'd allow that to happen.
But I'd say, you know,if you see the field around it,
if they move in ways they don'tlook like they're abandon the laws of physics,
that's certainly not ours. That's areally good point. So if you're
seeing something that perhaps has emissions justcoming out of one site or the other,

(45:37):
it's most likely our own. Andthen if it has this electromagnetic field
around it, it potentially could befrom somewhere else or part if it's our
own technology, we don't know wehave yet. Yeah, there's a video
that they keep showing on I won'tname this channels because I always give them

(45:58):
grief, but I think it's aChilean video of an object with a black
plume coming out of it. Becausethe shot that's an airplane, I mean,
I think it was Robert Powell.Didn't take them long to figure out
the flight number, the actual flight. It's moving away from the camera.
The two black circles behind it arethe engines, and anomalist objects just don't

(46:21):
move in a straight line like thatwith a plume behind it that was an
airplane, but they keep showing itas a true UFO on SHO and I'm
like, come on, man,you got to do better homework than that,
right, Well, okay, solet me ask you this. Do
you think that we're seeing all ofthis stuff because of disclosure and that there
hasn't been disclosure? Do you thinkdisclosure would help identify a lot of these

(46:43):
things? In my opinion, I'vestated this many times. Sometimes there's a
lot of arguments there will never everbe disclosure unless it's just leaked out.
There's no reason for the government tocome out and say, look, there's
things flying around over restricted areas,may be hurting or abducting people, but
don't worry about it. Everything.And so the reason for that is it

(47:09):
always comes down to military applications.If they can get their hands on this
and figure out how they work,it's first because of military application, So
you can stop any other country thathas the same tech from coming and doing
something to us. But they've beenlying for so long since before Roswell and

(47:29):
Roswell, if you really do yourdigging was an ET craft. There's too
much evidence. The thing about Roswellthat It always gets me is the first
press release was the truth. Ifit was a mobile balloon or any ludicrous
explanation like that, you would thelast thing you would ever do is have
a press release that says find discsfound on ranch. Right, that was

(47:51):
the true story, because Halt,you know, Halt let that out.
He would rain meet. I guesslet him publish that. But ever since
then, it just seems like theuh, I just I don't understand why.
Well, I understand why they haveto keep it a secret because they've

(48:13):
been lying all this time, andwith the recent testimony of Grush and all
these guys, you know, there'sstill, in my opinion, there's an
UFO group that nobody's heard of,nobody will ever hear of, that's already
threatened all these witnesses, and youknow, all these closed door meetings are
supposed to have a congressman. Theykeep canceling these because they're not gonna let
it out. And those are thepeople that threaten everybody at Roswell will kill

(48:37):
you, will kill your family,we'll shoot your dog, and we'll burn
your house down. You know,that's the group that's in charge of this.
That group will never release this informationwill never say it will never come
clean on disclosure. It's either gotto be forced out of them, or
somebody's gonna leak something like a shipthat's indisputable right, or et actually comes

(48:58):
down. Now, first of all, I don't think there's many of us
out there anymore who has faith thatanybody in the government knows what the heck
they're doing. Like the fact thatthey're like, oh, we don't know
what's playing around. I don't thinkthat would shock anybody. But can you
tell us a little about what theseroads photos are that you shared with me.

(49:21):
You mentioned there around the time ofRoswell. Yeah, that was on
the front page of the Roswell paper. A guy named Rose I got his
first name. But it's a websavee craft, just like what crashed in
Roswell. He came out, sawthis thing buzzing around in the sky,
was making a noise, which tellsme that maybe he was having some issues

(49:42):
and it crashed later after being struckby lightning. But these two pictures do
show you can see right there clearlya wedd shaped object. And even the
government he was an employee. Hewas employed by a military base. He
has Cameron his car and he gottwo shots before it buzzed off. But
even the government said that the photoswere authentic. There's an interesting little ball

(50:05):
under it there too. This wasa few weeks or a few months before
Roswell. This was also nineteen fortyseven, so this could be a picture
of the object that eventually crashed.There's several objects that eventually crashed Roswell.
I think they might get struck bylightning colliding with each other, and then
you have the Jabrier field and Coronaand all that extrapolated from that. Also

(50:30):
they went through we just put upnew radar which seemed to interfere with their
propulsion. So the radar and combinationwith the thunderstorm that night, they probably
passed through the radar, got struckby light at the same time, hit
each other, and that's why youhave dead bodies in multiple crash lights.
Yeah, what are the chances?Cool? That is really cool. So

(50:52):
let's get into a little bit.You have a picture here of UFO and
the clouds. If we can showthat picture, sure. I want to
save the Acoro case for after ourbreak. I just wanted to share this
because can you talk about what we'reseeing here? Ben, Yeah, this
was I'm always interested in egg shapedobjects due to the investigation of the Secoro,

(51:15):
but this is also you know,it's funny egg shape ogists called football
shaped, lipsical tic TACs, dependingon you know. This is obviously probably
a pretty big object that's far awayfrom the camera, but this ellipsoid shape
is very interesting because it does resemblea little bit of what landed in Sacuoro.

(51:38):
And this picture, you know,everything I could find out about it
looks authentic. And see that thesun reflecting off the right side of it,
and it's pretty far away. Iwould say maybe a half mile mile
away maybe more right, and youcan you could see that energetic field around
that one as well. Yeah,very blurry. It wasn't moving fast,

(52:00):
but you just can't kind of getan idea. I mean, the surface
kind of swims because of the probablya lot of electromagnetic venting coming off that
thing, whatever they're using for apropulsion. It's definitely way, way way
ahead of anything we have now.And you know, when you have something
that has no airfoils, no wings, no plumage coming out of it,

(52:23):
very strange. You know, theyjust seem to have mastered something that it's
going to take us a while toget to, but eventually we figure things
out, hopefully, Yeah, hopefully, or you kill ourselves. Yeah.
Really that does look a lot likethe Sikora one because a couple I know
we're talking about that later, butit's that one. I think I've heard

(52:44):
it in that position, a horizontalposition and also kind of upright with its
axis up and downs. Yeah,they seem to fly. Ray has film
of a disk on its side,but you can see the energy being coming
off the side of it, pushingthe air as it travels flat. You
know, it seems like maybe theyhave like a score object. Maybe they

(53:05):
have two engines, one that travelsspace and then they engage a separate engine
to fly an atmosphere. Now,I I know Ray Stanford has a lot
of really cool evidence and photos thathe's collected over the years, but there's
a particular photo ben in his housethat is really quite compelling. I think

(53:28):
it was taken at Prescott National Forcein Arizona, perhaps in nineteen seventy six.
We have about, I don't know, four minutes before break. Can
we share this with our viewers andcan you talk about what we're looking at
I believe it's called Gort that reallyhas it up in his living room.
If you look at this, it'san ice cream cone shaped object. You

(53:52):
see the it looks like a domewith a creature inside of it, and
then there's a bottom to it,and it looks like he's manipulated. Ray
has a much better enhanced picture ofthis, but he calls this one gore.
He has names for all the gosh. He's got about four or five
pictures of looks like creatures in spaceships, and this one has kind of a

(54:14):
lumpy head. It looks a littlebit like Yoda in the face when when
you really bring it out. Butthis is just one that's hanging in his
house and he's got his arms outso he looks like he's manipulating controls and
you can clearly see the dome andthen the bottom part, which is you
know, like a cup. Itlooks like a coffee cup with a glass

(54:35):
dome on top of it. Doyou know how Ray got this picture?
Was he out there in Prescott andjust taking photographs or was this give it
to him? Or what? No, he took it? He Ray can
usually he gets a weird feeling whenthey're around, and a lot of there
are. You know, Ray hasa little bit of psychic ability. I
got a little bit of that frommy grandmother myself. But he gets a
weird feeling. And he always hada camera, an eight or sixteen millimeter

(54:59):
camera around his neck, so hewas ready to get this stuff. But
this was a picture he took withhis argo. I believe he had a
twenty millimeter telephoto lens on it,and he just kind of felt like something
was going to happen, and sureenough he got this picture and it's incredible.

(55:21):
I mean, you can clearly seeit's a dude in a spaceship.
Like Eric just commented, I thinkand Tara and Ben as field investigators.
You're both field investigators or were formove On. We get that a lot
where people will just something will comeover them, like walk to the screen
door, walk to the back door, look out the window. I mean

(55:43):
you hear this time and time again. So I believe that that's something that
does happen to people. They getthis instinctual I guess maybe psychic message.
Well they think they think they're beingspoken to from these crafts sometimes, right,
Yeah, if you carry around apowerful magnetoma. That'll also alert you
to the fact that something is comingclose that's giving off a strong magnetic feel.

(56:07):
With only a minute left, Iwanted to bring up his book cover
again. Ben and Tony Angeola workedon you with this book as well,
but there it is not of thisworld. The nineteen sixty four socorro Ufo
with humanoids witness policeman Lani Zamora.How many years did you work on this?
And I know when we get backfrom break, we're going to play

(56:30):
an Evening on Earth with an extraterrestrial. Then we're going to take a deep
dive into the Lani Zamora case becauseI do believe you guys uncovered some new
great evidence. Cool. I thinkit's one of the best cases. I
think Jay Allen Heinek would agree kindof. That's the case that turned him
around, right Ben. Yeah,he formed Kufas not long after this because
he couldn't figure it out. AndHector Quentinia he thought he could find this

(56:52):
in an air force base somewhere.He was so frustrated he couldn't figure it
out already A lot got that later. Awesome. All right, well,
it is time for a break andwe will talk about Saquero right after the
break. All right, we're backtime for her. An evening on Earth
with an extraterrestrial with Ben Moss.All right, Ben, So here's a

(57:14):
scenario craft comes down has et.Where on Earth would you want to have
dinner with this et? Anywhere onthe planet? Well, at my house
everywhere else. I'm not going tobe able to discuss anything with him because
I'm going to be hounded by peoplewant to talk to him. So I

(57:36):
think my house would be the bestplace to have dinner. Love all right,
and then you can like make holdhim captive, hit captive him or
her, I don't know. Andwhat meal would you serve this extraterrestrial?
Well, not knowing if it's acarnivore or not, and not wanting to
scare him, I wouldn't pull outany meat. I think I would make
him a really nice salad. Ohthat's very sensitued. He I hear those

(58:00):
ets like pancakes too. Salad andpancakes, all right? And then later
after dinner, after dinner, you'regonna show them a movie. What movie
would you like him to see?The original? The Day the Earth Stood?
Still? Good choice? Good choice? Good choice. And then after

(58:20):
the movie, you're going to playsome music and teach them how to dance
a little bit. What music wouldyou share with them? Well? I
was told of a song, andthe song I thought about was A Day
in the Life by the Beatles.Oh, which is good. You show
a little bit of emotion and compassionand empathy that humans had. I like
that choice. And of course,I mean doesn't get more classic than the

(58:44):
Beatles. It's a beautiful song.It is a beautiful song. I like
that. Okay, and you onlyget one question. I know you're going
to kidnap them and keep them allnight at your house, but you only
can ask them one question. That'sall you're allowed. What question would you
ask? I always call them him, But what question would you ask it?
There's so many. I think probablythe first one. Instead of asking

(59:06):
where he's from, I'd ask himwhy is here? I think we all
want to know that. Yeah.Yeah, because if he says to take
up your planet, then I gotto get my gun. Yeah, why
are you here in my living roomwatching movies with me? And eat?
Have I own your menu? Maybehe is a meat eater. The only

(59:28):
other question was why me? Right? Right? Yeah, that's a great
question. If you could figure outwhy they're contacting the people you know,
you are, we all are,that's true. Have you ever thought about
what do you think of the abductionphenomena? Ben, of the the abduction

(59:50):
phenomenon speaking of Well, I waspretty skeptical initially, but I know Travis
Walton pretty well. I believe believehe believes he's telling the truth, and
I know Kathley Martin, and Ibelieve that Betty and Barney Hill had an
encounter. So, you know,I think that with all the strange different

(01:00:12):
stories out there, there's got tobe multiple civilizations visiting us, and they
probably know about each other, butthey all go about things in a different
way. So I believe that someof these things are happening. I don't
believe all of them, but it'sreally hard to prove and it's impossibly right.
I agree with you, Ben.I mean for me it was in

(01:00:32):
pri terror too. It was ait was a kind of a thought experiment
of just logic. Like the firstquestion is do you believe they've had the
technology to get to Earth? AndI think, Ben, you believe that,
oh yeah, yeah, we havehad visitors. And then if they've
made it to Earth, which Iall believe, all of us here believe
that they have, then it seemslogical to me that they'd want to study

(01:00:54):
that's life forms. Yeah, Friedmansaid, don't takes one of those stories
to be true. That's right,that's true. Speaking of that, one
of the best stories or one ofthe best cases. I think it was
well researched, and I think there'sa physical tracee evidence. Ben, Can
you kind of walk us through Sacoro? Yeah. Socorro came on Tony and

(01:01:20):
I's radar when we saw James Foxat the mof On Symposium in twenty fourteen,
and I promised them that I wouldfind the Scoro footage I had seen
on TV, and then we foundthe footage after a long it was on.
We published the whole story of howwe found the footage in the Moufon
Journal, two different journals. Yeah, I think of images. Yeah.

(01:01:45):
Yeah. In nineteen sixty four,Alnizimora, respected well known police officer and
saccording to Mexico, was chasing hisspeeder, kind of hanging behind his speed
or he pretty much knew who itwas. Seventy year old kid in the
neighborhood. But as he was chasingand we heard a little bit of a
war and saw a blue flame andsomething go over his head. So he

(01:02:07):
broke off the chase and he sawthis, this blue flame go down into
the arroyo and the desert of Secoro, and so his first thought was this
could be a plane crash or somebody'sin trouble. So he climbed three tries
to get up this hill, whichbeat our rental car to death when we're
there four times now. But hewent over the hill and as he's coming

(01:02:30):
down this road and looking down intothis depression, he saw an egg shaped
craft on the ground, four strutscoming out of a landing gear, and
two small four foot tall creatures.You knew how tall they were because they
were standing next to a Kreo sitebush which is four feet tall, and
they were the same height. Butthey were looking up under the craft.

(01:02:52):
And as we dug into the story, we found that a woman on the
real grand had seen the object comedown the river and where it couldn't be
depression where the river is, andthen make its turn towards the gas station
Oblegrind's gas station, where it almosthit a car with four tourists in it,
and then they made it to Lonnie'smore so, we think it was

(01:03:13):
having some type of trouble and alot of the people in Sucoro said that,
you know, there was a peacefound. Not sure about that.
But basically Lonnie saw these two smallhumanoids and we call it white coveralls.
But eventually he started naming them creatures. And he got a better look at
him than he told anybody when Iwhen I talked to his daughter and did

(01:03:36):
a lot of digging with a lotof friends that knew him, he got
close enough to know that they weren'thuman. And that's why after he had
this, spent two to three hourswith his his pastor and trying to you
know, hopefully find out whether hesaw demons or not. But he down
finally got out of his car,and when he finally stopped and started going

(01:04:00):
towards the object, the creatures weregone. He had two slams, like
a double hull of two doors closing. This is the roar that he went
up the hill and saw the twocreatures. And then when he was Ray
said he had marked it off withdoctor Heinek. He was about thirty five
feet from the craft. All ofa sudden, the craft rose up with
a roar, A blue flame cameout, but it was knifing in the

(01:04:24):
ground. If it had been arocket or ludicrous thing, the lunar lander
last, I remember that theory,the lunar lander theory. I can disprove
that in a second. But itlifted up and then the blue flame.
This is where the two engines comeon. The blue flame cut off,
and the craft just sat there,Lonnie said. He sat there for several

(01:04:47):
seconds and then started accelerating towards thepearlite mill and in the southwest direction,
eventually reaching supersonic speed. But itleft four indentations on the ground, which
Heinik estimated a nine ton craft.We had the way to make that.
It left some metal on a rockthat one of the struts hit that broke

(01:05:08):
in half, and metal was cameoff with a strut, and it also
the flame. It when it likefor one second, went across a career
side bush, it burned it andhad it burned half of it completely.
And these careers eyed bushes are veryresinous. It takes a lot of there's
the bush right there, It takesa lot of heat. You'd have to

(01:05:29):
have a blowtorch on that thing fora while because you couldn't set it on
fire. But was that really fast? Who's in the photo here? That's
Lannie on the left, That SergeantChavez in the middle, and that's a
good old race Stamford with the Bouffonthaircut and the Texas boots on the right.
Ray came to the site right afterHeinig did. Nobody wanted him on

(01:05:51):
the site, but Henig said,no, I'm a friend of his.
He's a good guy. They ledhim on the site and that's what Ray
wrote to cors on Pantry, whichwe kind of, you know, wrote
the follow up to. But therewas so much evidence there. And the
thing that we learned when we duginto this case was Bronnie had no reason

(01:06:12):
in the world to just tell thisstory, no reason to make it up,
and he was sorry he did.He said, if he ever had
to do it over again, he'dnever told anybody, but towards the end
of his life, I think hekind of made peace with it, realizing
of course that they weren't demons.Because he was very he was a Catholic.
I was going to say these figuresthat he saw right here. I

(01:06:33):
mean this, first of all,where is this drawing from right to this
drawing? And he has a colorizedversion of it. Raised great drawing.
But the thing is it landed inthis depression, and it's one of the
few depressions this big in the wholearea, So it definitely seemed to land

(01:06:56):
here because it was having some typeof difficulty. And the thing about this
drawing is when they saw Lonnie's car, which is right above the egg at
the top, they look startled,like WHOA, somebody's coming, and they
kind of startled In this photo,she said it kind of jumped a little
bit, but I believe that,you know, Lonnie definitely saw their face

(01:07:19):
and that's when he realized that theyweren't human besides the four foot tall and
just briefly, the lunar Lander didnot fly in this timeframe. It was
being dropped by a Bell helicopter totesting and tecretary of the struts. The
lunar Landers engine every time they firedit up had to be rebuilt because it
uses hydroxene, which is very costicmaterial. Also, lunar Lander didn't fly

(01:07:44):
until nine months later, and thefirst two flights ended with crashes. How
it's ejecting both times to save theirOkay, Yeah, that kind of debunks
that theory, doesn't it. DidLannie ever say that he felt threatened by
these four foot beans, Well,he just was so freaked out. It
was it was he when started asShava showed up. He was the first

(01:08:08):
person there, he said, andLannie is Hispanic. He said, Lani
as white as a ghost, andyou know he was. He was really
freaked out and this changed his life. When I talked to his daughter Diana,
she said that he was never thesame after this. He became a
lot more quiet. But he youknow, the encounter was so bizarre and
so out of it. He neverthought of UFOs. He never even considered

(01:08:30):
it. He just told the storylike it is. Never changed his story
over the years, never saught publicity. He had, you know, people
from overseas, from Japan and allthese places wanted to do stories with him.
He finally did a few interviews onUFO Hunters with Bill Burns and a
couple other people. But in thatinterview that we have in our presentations,
when he starts calling them the creatures. So after speaking with his daughter and

(01:08:55):
his friends. I know that hegot a much better look. He kept
saying white overalls, and that wasa way to kind of whitewash what he
really saw. I believe they hada white outfit on. But you know,
also it had an insignia on theside a lot of people confused with.
But the real insignia is that throughthe middle, through the top,

(01:09:19):
and through the bottom. And theconfusion on the symbol, yeah, the
umbrella symbol. And you know,I've had so many I got tired of
talking to people about the symbol becauseeverybody believes the umbrella symbol is a real
symbol because Lonnie signed it. Well, Captain Holder drew that symbol for a

(01:09:42):
reason, so that if anybody elsereported this craft and used that symbol,
you know, they were making stuffup. The real symbol of the invertedbviate
of three lines. And I canconfirm this because Ray Stanford met with Captain
Holder's son after he passed away,and Captain Holder, who was the descat
you know, it was a bite. San's commander knew everything about black projects

(01:10:03):
that were flying around there. Itwas nothing that they were flying. Their
radars actually turned off at the time, but it was laid on a Friday.
But he told Ray that his fatherhad said that he made up the
symbol for that reason. And youknow, told Lonnie, it's your patriotic
duty as an American citizen to signthis, and because LINI didn't want to

(01:10:24):
sign what wasn't true. But Lonniehad described in Spanish to several other police
officers, and I'm not going totry to repeat the sentence because my Spanish
is terrible. But it was aninverted V with three lines, a line
at the top, a line inthe middle, and a line at the
bottom. And when I kept lookingat that and trying to figure out what
it was, I did a wholelot of online research, and the only

(01:10:46):
thing I could think of was thatmight have been a radioactive symbol, which
basically meant don't stand here, becausethe arrow of the inverted V pointed to
right where the blue flame came out, so and this thing needed to take
off. If you're standing real close, you probably get cooked by radiation,
because there was radiation at site.That that is interesting. Yeah, So

(01:11:09):
I believe that the V points tothe engine and the three bars mean radiation.
Cool. So when Lonnie saw thiscraft, and he saw the beings.
Can you tell everybody what happened andwhat the evidence? Didn't something happen
to his vehicle or or no,his radio wouldn't work. It was full

(01:11:32):
of static. And when they left, you know, it eventually lifted up
and took off and then he finallygot the radio to work and that's when
he you know, he had alreadyradioed Sergeant Sabaz and he he showed up
as the craft was taken off,and we believe that Sergeant's Chavez also saw
it, but he was so convincedit was a black project that he never
wanted to talk about it. Butwhen we were in Sacoro talking to people,

(01:11:56):
there were multiple sightings. There waslanding near the reservoir and in the
book we do have multiple egg shapedobjects were seen in this timeframe in this
area. One landed a Hollerman AirForce base. A bunch of cops saw
one. A guy emptied his pistolout of it and got, you know,
at a dishonorable discharge from the armybecause he never was the same after

(01:12:17):
witnessing this thing landing in the desert. But there were multiple reports they called
a buttane shaped craft, football shapedcraft, but It's like in Lambadera there
was a landing La madeera that thecraft, same thing, blue flame for
indentations, sat there for four hours. The guy that saw it went to
bed, came out the next morningwas still there, which tells me this

(01:12:38):
thing was having mechanical difficulties and that'sthe reason for the landing twice. But
it was seen all over and Ihave all the newspaper clippings in the book
to show that this wasn't a oneoff, right right. I don't think
a lot of people realize how activethat area was during that time. And
one of our listeners, Eric made, maybe they were delivering him this happened

(01:13:00):
just right before yeah, onto theplanet, so maybe he solved it right
right here tonight, Let's talk alittle bit about the indentations that they left
in that one photo. I thinkthis photo here is rayed Damford's foot near
one of the indentations, or isthat a different photo. I'm thinking now
that's the center the creer sighted bush. This thing went over this bush and

(01:13:25):
sliced it. The indentations they hadput rocks around it, so okay,
yeah this, yeah, that's thelanding gear with these wed shape really strange.
And the lander and around landing pod, so it wasn't a little lunar
lander, but this web shape fourlanding gears. The bottom of it buried
into the ground, pushed all thatdirt out. The rock is right there

(01:13:48):
where the arrow is. That's therock that was broken. That the metal,
the alloy was found. But andthere it was a self leveling machine.
They weren't exactly like nineteen I thinkit was nineteen feet by eighteen and
a half feet, so they weren'texactly you know, the thing landed on
not even ground. It was tilted, but it seemed to be a self

(01:14:10):
leveling type of landing gear. Andit you know, there was radiation.
Sargeant shab As, there was agentleman there that Ted Jordan. Ted Jordan
took a bunch of pictures. AirForce took him. Heini got back later
and I have Heinek on film tellingRay in an interview that the film was
fogged by radiation and that's why Tednever got the pictures back. The next

(01:14:33):
day there was no radiation, sovery short half life of radiation. Unusual
radiation that disappeared in the day.Wow, that's interesting speaking of that,
did Alani Zamora. Did he gethurt in any way? Did he bunk
his head? And did he getany effects from radiation or any illnesses after

(01:14:55):
this event lifetime? He dove downwhen he thought the thing was going to
blow up when I lifted off,so he dove down. His glasses got
knocked off. Bring up the glassesthing. But he witnessed everything with his
glasses on before they got knocked off. But when we spoke, When Tony
and I spoke at the twenty sixteenI believe moved On symposium in Florida,

(01:15:18):
a physical scientist came up to me. I believe his name is Mark Moore.
I have his card. Came upto me and said, I've got
a story to tell you, Andhe said he was in Socorro in the
eighties and was in a gift shopand he had his badge on it.
He said of his physical sciences,he was a metallurgist, I believe or

(01:15:40):
radiation. He was a radiation specialist. Well, a gentleman, Hispanic gentleman
came up to him so his badand said I want to ask you some
questions. And that was Lonnie's aMoor and he described He actually took him
out of the site, described whathappened, and then said, look,
I'm concerned that I got a doseof radiation. You know, anything's gonna

(01:16:00):
happen to me. And Mark toldhim he said, well, if nothing's
happened now, I doubt that you'regonna have any ill effects. And you
didn't get close enough. But hewas concerned for some time until I guess
he talked to Mark in the eighties, which is twenty years later, that
he had gotten dosed with something.But beyond the fact that, I think
the worst thing that happened was Imean, if this happened to anybody,

(01:16:25):
it would change your life, andespecially somebody's not a believer like Lonnie was,
it would just freak you out.And it did freak him out.
He was never the same. Heended up leaving the forest, working at
the local dump and I think drivinga truck or working at the gas station.
But he would and people said thatyou never bring it up with him.

(01:16:45):
If he wanted to talk about it, he'd bring it up out of
the blue. But wow, hetold a lot to one of one person
who won't really say much about it. I've been trying to get some info,
but you know, it's one ofthose things where you can only dig
so deep on a case that's thatold. But every time we went to
Cicorro, and every time we dugaround, we found more and more info.

(01:17:08):
And now I'm finding more infos eventhese days about you know, other
people. The thing about Sacoro isa lot of people that were there that
went to the school there, orthere was a big tech school in mining
school there. They didn't leave.So a lot of people that were there
that we talked to were there whenthis happened. And then La Madera happened
before the newspaper article came out,but to described the same thing. So

(01:17:30):
definitely some type of trouble. Lonniewas just in probably he would say a
wrong place, wrong time, butI would say right place at the right
time, right well, he hadan an unimpeachable reputation, right, I
mean, as a witness, hewe thought somebody was hurt. That's why
he followed this up into the becausehe took his car was only like two
weeks old, brand new police car, but he took it up this road

(01:17:51):
that took him three tries to getup. Tony and I took a renal
car and we beat the hell outof this. There's a lot of rocks
in the desert. He went offroad. Didn't need to go to it,
you had to get He went upthat hill that's in that that drawing
and finally got up there after thethird try. But for him to do
that just tells you the nature ofLonnie. He h. He was a

(01:18:13):
good guy. He was trying tohelp somebody and then he had another worldly
experience. And also can you talkabout the metal that was found on the
rocks and and I understand there wasquite a bit of it, but it
somehow got lost as it was,you know, being before it was able
to really get processed. And whatdid they find about that? Well,
there was the one picture you haveof the roll when the when the gear

(01:18:38):
slid down the rock and rolled upa bit of this material which looks like
mercury almost. But and when Raywas transferring the rock to a bag that
the piece fell on the ground.They could never find it again. That
piece right there, that's the piecethat got lost. But the other flakes
and the and the rock, andaccording to Ray's book, he took it

(01:19:00):
to I think Goddard turned the rockin with the promise that they would only
take half the material, and theyanalyzed the material and one gentleman, I
can't remember his name, but he'dcome back and said, look, this
is very interesting. This material,whatever it is, doesn't melt, doesn't

(01:19:24):
corrode, doesn't do anything. It'dbe great to code it on a landing
gear because it has no corrosion,it doesn't nothing that seems to affect it.
But he didn't get the composition ofwhat it was. Then then he
went silent, and Ray found outyears later that they said that guy got
sent to the woodshed, which isterminology for like he got in trouble for

(01:19:45):
talking to Ray about what they found. And when Ray got the rock back,
which he still has that we've lookedat many times, all the metal
was gone. So they didn't keeptheir promise. If it was nothing to
it, they were left some ofit there, but apparently it was very
interesting to them, and so justanother typical cover up. You know,
you've got to be careful what yougive your government. If you ever wanted

(01:20:10):
back, you probably will. Youhear that a lot in a lot of
these cases that the the you know, they give the evidence away, whether
it's pictures or metal on rocks orsomething and with the promise of it coming
back and it never does. Soyeah, Linda Moldenell did that with some
of the Roswell materials she got,which I remember when that first happened in

(01:20:30):
the nineties, that elderly gentleman hadcent her. He said it was from
the underneath the craft. These he'skind of like almost like, uh,
you know, stones that you wouldfit into a into you know, your
backyard or something, but very strangematerial. She sent some to the government.
Of course, never got it back, but Bigelow got some of that

(01:20:53):
and that's where the meta materials camefrom. There there there isotopa ratio shows
they're not made. They're almost stitchtogether molecule by molecule, which is something
that we're just getting around and beingable to do. Wow, this is
fascinating right right. I was gonnasay, it's one of the few cases

(01:21:15):
where we have you know, weweren't there also put prints of the little
kind of U shaped prints right nearwhere they were walking around the craft looking
at it. They were about thisbig and we're witness there there. He

(01:21:35):
drew a picture and Ray has thatpicture. It's about three or four tracks
around the vehicle, and then theyof course jump back in and slammed the
door and took off. But yeah, really had to be really small to
make that print. And obviously theyrun some type of suit, so I
don't think they had hooves on theirfeet. Did they have anything over their

(01:21:59):
faces, helmets or anything like that. I think when when Lonnie said white
coveralls, he was just covering forwhat he actually saw. I think they
had a white outfit on, butI think their faces were clear. I
believe they were air breathers. Theydidn't anything about a helmet or anything.
But he started calling them creatures laterin his life, and that tends to
tell you that he got enough detailto know that they weren't human might call

(01:22:20):
them creatures. They definitely had avery unusual appearance. But I just the
one person we always wish we couldhave interviewed was the uh, the preacher
that he talked to. Oh,yeah, that would have been he would
have heard the whole story. BecauseLonnie thought they were demons at first,
That tells you the faces were notof this world. Definitely scary. And

(01:22:45):
what about the blue flame? Dowe see that a lot in some of
the current UFOs. But the blue, isn't that a really hot hot Yeah?
It was. Ray would say itwas sub atomic particles to speed a
light knife into the ground. Thething is knife into the ground. It
didn't blow, you know, itblew some some of the sand and dust,

(01:23:08):
but it didn't really. There wasa little bit of heat that Lonnie
felt, but it was obviously sometype of strength propulsion because that's what left
the radiation and burned the creoside bush. But now we have an ion ion
engine is blue. A lot ofour tactical jet fighters have blue because of
the combustion material in there. Butback in sixty four, I just don't

(01:23:32):
know what would cause you know,the engine that we have that are blue
still would burn you if you werethirty five feet from them. Wow.
But just whatever that was, itwas enough to lift a nine ton craft
off the ground and not cook Lonnieand then of course cut off the craft
was completely silent and then just acceleratedway. So you know, maybe they

(01:23:56):
temporarily fixed or they just had toget away, and then I think they
ended in Lamadera and spent four hourson the ground fixing that thing. I
just I can't believe that guy wentto sleep and then came out and saw
the craft still there. That justhow it at all? You know,
I craft in the desert. Okay, I'm going to bed. And did

(01:24:18):
do you ever get any other witnessesto come forward through the years? Yeah,
we had when we were there uhand Sikoro, we had people say
that several policemen had seen it andthey because of the way Lani was treated,
they didn't want to say anything.There was near the reservoir which people

(01:24:40):
saw. There was the woman.She had passed away, but another woman
said, yeah, she used tolive. We found where her house used
to be. It was just ayou know boards. We went to the
river, but she was sitting ona porch and she said, this weird
egg shaped craft came around the frontof her house and then made a turn

(01:25:00):
put it right in line with OpeleGrinder's gas station. There were four tourists,
a couple and their two kids.Flew over their car by like five
feet, which tells you was havingaltitude problems. And when Opel Grinder came
out after he went to the gasstation and said, the guy said,
you got some funny looking stuff lyingaround here, and he said, what

(01:25:20):
are you talking about? He says, this thing almost hit our car and
Opele says the helicopter, And hesaid, the helicopter is the funniest looking
helicopter I ever saw. But almosthitting a car in broad daylight. That
tells you that they were looking fora place to land and try to see
what came on. What do youthink would happen if something like that occurred

(01:25:41):
today, somebody whipped out their cellphone, Cameron get a video of it.
But usually when these things over yah, they happen. Usually, you
know, the last thing you thinkabout is you're just standing there with the
slack jaw and glazed eye because you'reso freaked out. I don't remember you
have a camera with you. Butthing I think that they sets There are

(01:26:02):
a lot of egg shaped craft.That just tells me maybe a certain civilization
different from another civilization. That wastheir craft. That the shape they had
a symbol. I don't know ifthe symbol was static or changed or whatever,
but that was maybe you know,in a cycle, maybe they come
around every thirty or forty years orsomething, but that was what they flew
at the time. But I thinkthey're a lot smarter now because they see

(01:26:26):
our technology and there's cameras everywhere andstill your ring doorbell cameras and things like
that capture these things a lot.Yeah, and high strange things on those
videos too, just you know,not necessarily insects, but I asked pass
and stuff. You know, theyyou know, whenever the feed kicks out,
whenever they see a UFO, thefeed kicks out, and then they

(01:26:48):
say, oh, we switched camerasor we lost here. Yeah, it's
the same old, same old fromthe government. Yeah, Hey, has
anyone else seen that symbol? Reportedsim similar to those from the Sikoro incident.
There was a pilot that was flyingover a Hollerman I think a couple

(01:27:09):
of days later or after the newspaperarticle had come out, and he he
he said, look, I'm seeingan egg shaped craft like Lonnie described.
They say, what does it looklike? He said, exactly like Lonnie
described with the symbol, because originallythe symbol was known on the drawing the
truck, all drawing that was inthe that a guy had done after Lonnie

(01:27:31):
described it, there was an avertedV with three lines on it. When
the government showed up, they madehim or erase that symbol, and so
the picture now has no symbol,and that's when Holder drew the umbrella and
the arrow, and you know hejust kind of but there was that one
pilot flying a jet air Force thatdefinitely said he saw it and definitely saw

(01:27:54):
the symbol. Do you think,yeah, it is interesting. Do you
think that that egg could be similarto the current modern day tic TACs?
Are they related? They are morelipstus stretched out more, I think could
be the same civilization could be youknow, the eggs come out of the
bigger chips, but I think thetic TACs, like favor of the pilot

(01:28:17):
describer, about forty feet huge.The coral craft was probably nineteen to twenty
feet long somewhere around there size,and you know these guys were little,
so that's plenty of room for afour foot tall creature. But you know,
with all the reports, there wasno other reports of the symbol,

(01:28:39):
and symbols are very rare in uthology. There's the UMO hopes and things like
that, but very rarely do yousee a symbol on the craft. And
so, you know, Tony hadspeculated that maybe it just meant, you
know, they had that symbol onthere to warn about the engine or as
Tony said, it could have meanteat at Joe's. It was just some

(01:29:00):
advertisement, you know, to helpthem propulsion propulsion. There was symbols at
Rendalston Forest, right, the Yeah, I believe that that triangular craft did
have symbols on it. But youknow, the Rendilsson was a fascinating case.
But I'm very skeptical of John Burrow'snotebook because in talking Colonel Hall as

(01:29:24):
a friend of ours, and thentalking to Colonel Hard, he said there
was nothing in his notebook for along time, and that zero's and ones
that John Burrows wrote out, youknow, seems to be fabricated later.
But they did draw the symbols,and there was an analysis of that that
said the symbols meant interplanetary traveler,this solar system. They kind of deciphered

(01:29:48):
some of it. I'm not surehow accurate that is. But the big
theory on that was us from thefuture. I'm not sure about that,
but that's you know, that stuffreally happened. They did shoot a beam
into the missiles, which at thetime nobody would admit we had nuclear missiles
there. But there were nuclear missilesthere and it penetrated the silos where the
missiles were just like a mauster them, where they shut off all of our

(01:30:11):
missiles. They seem to be interestedin our technology and then being able to
display that they could shut it offor activate it at any time, which
is scary, which is frightening.Exactly could be a good thing, good
stuff in the particular war. Idon't think they're here to save us or
anything. I think I've thought aboutthis, but I think if we had

(01:30:32):
a world war, they probably justobserve it. You know, they've probably
seen this and many civilizations kill themselves. It takes a lot for a civilization
to travel space, because first you'vegot to overcome your own atomic age and
your own wars. And you know, one of the main reasons for UFO

(01:30:53):
showing up in great numbers is we'rea very violent race and they don't want
us going out to space in ourpresent form or military killing each other wars.
There's never been a time there's nota war on this planet. And
look at what's going on now.I mean, we're not the best representatives.
The human race is not a goodrepresentative of probably what's out there,

(01:31:13):
because anybody that's succeeded in building spacecraftto travel the universe. They've overcome all
that probably, or they're dominant,you know, species that wipe everybody else
out. But I don't believe that'strue. I think, you know,
to be able to travel space haveovercome all those things. You probably have
empathy, you're probably intelligent, you'rea good being and have the right intentions.

(01:31:35):
But we could just be you know, a history lesson interesting. Well.
You hear stories though about even inthe past about you know, the
famous woodblock. There were the craftshaving war amongst themselves, so you know,
but it doesn't have to be differentspecies or anything. It could just

(01:31:58):
be one you know, with factioninside you know, within themselves. We
do that here, right, Soyeah, I mean Star Trek's a good
example of how things might be.You know, you got the Klingons and
the borg and you know, Ithink if multiple species are visiting here,
they tolerate each other. But youknow, maybe they're not too friendly to
each other. There's certain species maybethat they know are not friendly, not

(01:32:20):
good. You know, when peoplesay they might be here for our resources
and stuff, that's ridiculous. There'sresources all over the universe, they don't
need to tear apart a populated planetfor resources. There's that asteroid that we
know has one hundred trillion pounds ofgold on it. There's planets made of

(01:32:40):
diamonds. You know, there's somuch material out in the universe you wouldn't
have to come to Earth and robit of its gold and uranium and platinum
and things like that. I thinkthere's signs in the universe that says Earth
just ahead. Where do you thinkof you know, the theories that we

(01:33:02):
have bases on the far side ofthe Moon. And also on that same
line, what do you think someof these interesting photos are getting from Mars?
Do you think there used to becivilization on Mars? Well with regards
to the Moon. You know DARPADefense You know, DARPA is a high,
highly secret defense agency. They sentthe Clementine mission to the Moon in

(01:33:27):
about ninety photograph the backside, andLinda Moulton Howe found some URLs on the
Internet where some of those pictures wereand they're out in the public that showed
some weird stuff on the backside ofthe Moon. And then the Chinese sent
an object that did photograph or itwas India. I remember I talked to
the guy and he said he wasgoing to release the data, and then
I never heard from him again.But I believe that there's the Brookings report

(01:33:54):
that came out. I believe inthe sixties referenced the War of the World
broadcast with Orson Wells. Why youcan't disclose anything because people freaked out when
they thought there was an evasion.But they said, look, when we
travel, if we go find somethingto say on the backside of the Moon,
you can't tell the public about itbecause it would freak us out,

(01:34:14):
you know, which I don't believeis true anymore, but I believe.
And of course, if he putson the backside of your moon, you
know, we wouldn't find it untilwe had the technology to get there.
But there are some weird things onthe Moon, and Mars is a whole
different case. Mars, you know, had some type of collision with a
large body that stripped his atmosphere.There's big, gorgeous on the planet where
they had a cataclysm. But wecould all be Martians. I think there's

(01:34:39):
a lot of ancient technology that showsup in these photos, and it's weird,
how you know, it's typical governmentstuff. But there's pictures that you
can tell are just grainy that haveweird stuff in it. All of a
sudden, they have clear ones.You know, the helicopter that flew around
before it broke its compeller recently,it was taking great pictures. But some

(01:34:59):
of those you can see the samething over and over. And what they've
done is take a slide and multipliedit three or four times, so you
think you're seeing a panorama, butit's the same thing. And if you
dig in, you see the sameobject in each panel. So I think
we've definitely found evidence that there wasa civilization on the Mars. They have

(01:35:20):
been us that we escaped here andthen somehow got reverted back to the Stone
Age, but I believe there.I mean, there's so many photographs that
show the weirdest stuff on that planetthat are not natural. And if you
know the history of Mars, itit had oceans. We know, it
had lakes, it had water,It had water and atmosphere pretty much it

(01:35:43):
probably had life, you know,either through pants permia, you know,
comets seating the planets, which Ibelieve has been proven to be true.
You know, they found organic materialon comets. It's called pants permia.
But there probably was a civilization onMars, maybe over a million years ago.
Yeah. Do you think if wemake it to Mars in our lifetime

(01:36:03):
and they actually find evidence that itwas inhabited, they would tell us the
truth? Hell? No. Earlier, there was a gentleman and I contacted
him that they set that probe inseventy six to look for methane, which
is the kine. Organic matter createsmethane. And so he did a test

(01:36:25):
in seventy six. This thing landedon Mars and detected methane, and they
covered it up. And I reachedout to him and he says, you
know, it's the weirdest thing.My test worked and I never heard from
him again. So with the obscuring, the software that's obscuring, you know,
John McCain actually yelled at JPL forreleasing his images that had have a

(01:36:45):
blurring algorithm that blurs things. Butthey forget some things like on the Moon.
I believe it's on the Moon,there's these towers that they wiped them
out, but they forgot about theshadow. There's three ry and go to
towers in a certain area where theshadow is still there, but they wiped
out the object itself. And youknow, there's the same thing on Mars.

(01:37:08):
They do it obscuring. They havean obscuring software that will kind of
smudge it out and they just itgoes back to disclosure. They're not gonna
tell anything. Do you think thatthe images from the James Webb telescope is
going to give us any information?Or is that being scratched a lot of
neat stuff? But why don't they'renot pointing out at Mars? You know,

(01:37:30):
yeah, you think it's such agood time. Of course, it's
way out in space now, it'slike a million miles away. But that
thing is just telling us every day. The images are unbelievable and they're finding
things that shouldn't exist. So it'skind of plain with what we think,
you know, our idea of howthings are formed and created. It's messing

(01:37:51):
with all those because they're finding structuresthat shouldn't exist. They found. It's
interesting. I saw they had astar that was twenty eight billion year years
old, so that star the lightis reaching us, but that star has
been gone for like twelve billion yearsand it doesn't existing. But everything you're
seeing of course could be dead orgone, you know, because the thing

(01:38:14):
about the machine, everything's moving awayfrom us. Eventually you'll look in the
sky and it'll be black because everythingis moving away from everything. So eventually
everything's going to expand to the pointwhere there'll be no stars. Of course,
I think the summer blow up andmeltar planet, we'll be able to
see starlinks. That's what we'll beable to see. Think out see no
stars, will see nothing but ablanket a starlinks, and it will probably

(01:38:34):
be beautiful, and it'll be projectingdown false flags of aliens and alien ships
like holograms of these fours. Ithink Bob Spearing was on talking about that,
and yeah, you know, thatreally gave me a lot of food
for thought and thinking, Wow,that makes a lot of sense where we'll
getting set up for the big hoax. So I'm going to ask you,

(01:38:56):
Ben, usually I start conversations likethis, but what made you interested in
uphology in the first place. Mydad was a doctor and he he got
a little TV from a client thatthis is a long long time ago,
but he got a little TV froma client and I was sitting on his
bed. We were watching it aWalter Kronkait special came on about UFOs and

(01:39:18):
you can find that on the internet, and I was fascinated by it,
you know, and so that kindof got me started. And then of
course all my buddies and I wentout through Frisbees in the air. I
took pictures of been trying to saywe captured the UFO. This is way
back in like sixty that was youwait a minute, I saw those I
saw those pictures, but you know, and then I've had three sightings of

(01:39:43):
my own, and the most incredibleone was in Lynchburg. We were on
a mountain in Lynchburg. I wasjust after Cone. I was in my
twenties, but there was a thunderstormand my roommate was with me and we
saw these between two thunderheads, thesetwo purple tracks and were kind of winding

(01:40:05):
around and then a big purple plasmatype ball followed the tracks from one cloud
disappeared another followed by second one.It was kind of a wushing sound,
and to this day I remember itclearly. And I turned to my roommates
says, you see that, Hegoes, yeah, I go, what'd
you see? He goes? Twotracks with two purple balls, and I'm

(01:40:27):
like, Okay, you saw thesame thing, and it's the weirdest thing
I've ever seen. But I wasin Key West, Florida and eighties,
I believe, and I saw anobject go two objects went like this.
Another object came right turn and thenthe first one stopped in the second one
just made the right turn all theblink of an eye. I was with

(01:40:47):
my first wife at the time,said did you see that? Of course
she didn't because she was looking down. And then Tony and I were at
presentation for she forgot her name upin Pennsylvania, believe. We're doing a
presentation at a library up there.Steiner, Jill Steiner, Jennifer, Jennifer,

(01:41:09):
Jennifer Steyder. Yeah, and we'rein the parking lot and there was
an object coming across. We sawjets going this way, like east to
west, but there was an objectcoming across, and it was shiny,
round, like a metallic ball,And of course I tried to find it,
and it was so bright. Itried to find it in my cell

(01:41:30):
phone camera and it almost blinded mebecause the sun was so bright and the
sky was blue. I couldn't zoohim in on it all, but we
all saw it. It was reallyweird. And then we had a retigrapher
with us, and then we sawanother object he photographed. It looked like
a castle in the sky. Ohwow, it was really strange. Kathleen
wanted to know if you remember theyear of that, which one one I

(01:41:51):
think she saw about the one you'rejust saying, Kathleen, correct me if
I'm wrong, but the one withJennifer Stein or Yeah, that was probably
two thousand and sixteen, in twentyseventeen recent And then about two thousand,
probably fourteen, I was with mywife and we were in Pennsylvania again and

(01:42:13):
there were three black tear drop almostlike a balloon, but I've never seen
a black balloon, but there wasjust three tear drop shaped objects and we
were on the highway. I couldn'tstop, I couldn't do anything, but
I was looking these things to go. That is the weirdest thing I've ever
seen because they were very close together, they weren't moving, and there was
no gondala under it. There wasjust this tear shape black three objects in

(01:42:34):
the sky. And Pennsylvania is anotherone of the states that has a lot
of strange stuff happening up there forsure? Is that what spawned you to
become an investigator and try to doGuy started it, and then I guess,
you know, as I'd always gone. I was a big comic book
collector back in the day. Whenif I saw a UFO magazine in the

(01:42:55):
store, I bought it. AndI wish I had those issues today because
they had pictures of things that Ican't find anymore, you know, on
the internet. But I was alwaysinterested in because I had a wandering mind.
I was into comic books, probablyundiagnosed add but I was just fascinated
by anything that was like that becauseyou know, that was when Star Trek

(01:43:17):
had come out and it was biginto science fiction. But you know,
just imagining, wow, you know, maybe we're not alone. That's a
very interesting thing. And then youknow, once I became a field investigator
with Moufon, we started getting somereally bizarre cases and then became chief investigator,
where I look at all the casesand assign them. It's just some

(01:43:40):
of them are so weird that youcouldn't make the stuff up. It's just
so bizarre. But it's just likeagain what Segin said, it would look
like magic, you know, becauseit's such an advanced technology that you can't
even get a starting poort for whatyou're looking at. Right, Kathleen wanted
to know what year the sighting wasyou and your brother had when you were
a kid. Now, I didn'thave one as a kid. No,

(01:44:06):
you said, you and your brotherhad a sighting when you were younger.
Oh, you're in your twenties,you said, oh, in my twenties.
Yeah, that was. Let's seeseventy six, nineteen seventy six,
nineteen seventy seven, somewhere around therethe best years for sightings, I think.

(01:44:26):
So, as chief investigator, Ben, what advice do you have for
our listeners out there? I meannowadays to investigate this subject. It's a
slippery slope, you know, withthe technologies we have now. What is
some advice you have for folks outthere that are kind of wanting to do

(01:44:47):
their own research and investigations. Well, if you have the resources, get
some good equipment. You know,always have two cameras so you can get
parallax on any object. You filma photograph, two different views to confirm
distance and size and things like that. But you really, just like Ray
did forty years fifty years ago,use instruments to try and capture what you

(01:45:13):
can. You know, the Iwas impressed by that tier in the sky.
I just watched that for the firsttime. But they had everything except
the high speed camera. But theycaught those objects coming down from the sky
at like fifty seven thousand miles anhour. And so you need, you
know, your infrared, your spectralcameras that can pick up multiple wavelengths.

(01:45:33):
Need a magnetometer or grab a meter. These things are expensive, so you
know, the worst case scenario ifyou're trying to catch something, get a
good camera, get a camera thathas a high speed rate, you know,
maybe at least four thousand frames asecond, and see what you can
get. I think these days youcan almost point a camera up anywhere and

(01:45:53):
catch something. I believe these thingsare flying around all over the place,
and they could be as small.Here's an interesting story from a long time
ago. But I remember in thenineties in England, they were having a
lot of you know, attacks andbiological attacks and things like that were terrorists.
So they put this pole with thisthing on it that could detect biologics

(01:46:15):
and could see multiple spectrums, andfive minutes after you turn this thing on
a ball about the size of yourfist, floated down to it, was
kind of studying it, and thenseemed to realize they could see it,
and then shot off in the space. And so after that I was thinking,
oh, wow, you know,these things could be this big or
who knows how big. But youknow, nanotechnology, you could build a

(01:46:39):
you know, a spaceship with alot of things that's maybe as big as
your finger. Wow, teeny tinythings, right. So I remember the
Prides of the next episode with thealiens about this big and they landed that
lady Agnes mooreheads uh oh, yesshe was. There was like the invasion
with a broom. Yes, therewas no like dialogue in that whole thing.

(01:47:01):
It was morehead the mother from Bewitched. Yeah, and it was like
our little astronauts that were landed therealmost. Do you think these phenomena are
connected, Ben, Do you thinkthat UFOs and like say, the paranormal
and sasquatch the cryptids are somehow connectedand intertwined and related. I've never bought

(01:47:24):
into that. You know, paranormalis just another way of saying something we
don't understand yet, you know,just like UFOs. You could call UFO's
paranormal away. If you're talking aboutlike supernatural and ghosts and things like that,
that's a whole different ballgame, whichI've had experiences with that and don't

(01:47:45):
I don't think it's related. Ithink that they're all separate things. I
think that Bigfoot is an maybe anancient man like a Denosovian or something that
is just so smart. The PattersonGimli footage I believe is real, which
shows, you know, six hundredpounds female. I mean, who made

(01:48:05):
a monkey costume of breasts in thesixties. That's just that to me,
is a real thing. But Ithink that maybe it's an offshoot of Gigantapithecus
or something. But I remember therewas a famous mountain climber, I can't
remember his name, but a famousmountain climber that climbed Everest in all these
places, and they asked him aboutthat. He goes, oh, I've

(01:48:26):
seen him, he goes, really, He goes, yeah, one one
cross in front of me. Hegoes, you know why you can't find
them so they can smell you likethree miles away. Oh my goodness,
that's why they know. They alwaysknow you're there and digitous. Now we
smell bad people that live in theforest, and this is documented. They
you know, these some of thesecultures that have never had touch with modern

(01:48:47):
man. They live in these forests, but as soon as you walk into
the forest, they know you're inthe forest, even if they're miles away.
You know, because we now findout that trees communicate with each other,
plants communicate with each other, youknow, Yeah, who knows.
I mean, it's all very interesting, but I think you can't lump them
all together. If you want tostudy UFOs, to study UFOs. If

(01:49:10):
you're ghost hunting, your ghost hunt. If you're going after Bigfoot, that's
a whole separate thing. The storieswith Bigfoot included in there. Who knows,
could be a holographic projection. Maybethey're seeing it in your mind and
want to project it to scare youoff. You know, there's there could
be a lot of reasons why theyseem to be connected, but it could
all be a ruse. What doyou think they're doing. What do you

(01:49:30):
think they're here for monitoring us,make sure we don't get out. You
think it's for the mill that likethe the we're such a such a bad
example of you know, enlightened beingsor not. You know, some of
us are, but we're just it'sterrible the things we do to each other.
And you know, if you've learnedthe travel space, you probably overcame

(01:49:53):
all that. So it could bea history lesson. These things could be
filled with kids in a classroom.You know, here's here's what you don't
do. Watch this planet blow itselfup. You know, that could be
easily what they're doing. But Iknow they want to monitor us because after
the first atomic explosions is when itstarted increasing tremendously, and if you go
back in time, it seems likethey interacted with, you know, us

(01:50:16):
for a long time. You know, the Bible could just be records of
extraterrestrials that they didn't know what they'relooking at, so they call them angels
and gods. But I think thatthey want to keep an eye on us.
We're probably a good study and whatnot to do a good lesson,
and if they've seen other civilizations godown this path, you know, maybe

(01:50:38):
occasionally they might try to tweak thingsto like a maelstrone, but they've made
the missiles come online to push usin another direction. But you know,
I'm starting to feel like we're almostin the end times because of everything that's
happening AI, and we only havetwo minutes to wrap here. But do
you think there's hope for humanity?Number one? And if we get to

(01:50:59):
that point that point, do youthink they'll intervene any extraterrestrials? Will they
come in and help us? Idoubt it. I just I think that
maybe you know, we've had fiveor six civilizations, the hope the Indians
say there were five worlds, andthe six worlds, the last one is
going to be the last one.I think we're heading towards a mass extinction

(01:51:19):
event. To be a positive manhappy note, Yeah, no, hey,
folks, you know what, there'shope. Don't give up hope.
There's so many there's millions and billionsof us that want to turn things around.
So let's end on a positive note. But I hope they intervened lots

(01:51:42):
of them. They need it.Ben, it's been a pleasure having you
on. Thank you for taking thetime to hang out with us tonight,
and I hope you have a fantasticrecord the rest of your week. Thank
you, Chanelle for being here.And running the back end. We love
you, Thank you, Tara,Shane. We miss you. We'll have
some announcements about Shane coming up.Our hearts are with you and we miss
you being here. And we alwayssee the best. Thanks to all our

(01:52:03):
listeners out there. Thank you tokJ R and Bill Skywatcher and we'll see
we will see you next Tuesday night. You guys all have a great rest
of your week. Good night.Appreciate it.

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