Jonathan Dover

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:10):
Government's denight militaries deny even the mainstreammedia denis but they are here, and
they've been here for a very longtime. The Mutual UFO Network has been
on the fuck lines uncovering the truthsince nineteen sixty nine, and now we're
sharing that truth with you. Welcome, move fan. What's up with your

(00:34):
hosts? Katie Paige, Shane Heardand Tara guide us exclusively on the KGRA
Digital Broadcasting Network wondering what's up?Summer week? What's up everybody? It

(00:58):
is another Tuesday night. You knowwhere the week went? It just flew
by. It just seems like theother day we were here. I hope
you all had a fantastic weekend.Just returned last night from the amazing Arizona
boot Camp that Phoenix Moofon and Moufonputs on as always a well attended,
fantastic event. And our guest tonight, Jonathan Dover, was out there Paranormal

(01:19):
Ranger, and we are going tobe talking about what happened at the boot
camp and so many other different things. Hi Strange Just so, I'm so
excited he was able to make timetonight to be here because I know he
just traveled home today, so I'msure he's a little tired, and I
appreciate him being on here with us. We are moofon What's Up Radio,
brought to you by KGRDB dot com. I hope you go to their website

(01:41):
and check out all their great content. We are endorsed by moufon the Mutual
UFO Network, always asking that allimportant question are we alone in the universe?
I am your host, Katie Page, the color at a Moofon State
director, And like I said,we have a great show for you tonight.
I'm really happy you all could behere today and I hope you guys
had a happy and safe Halloween aswell. Let's go ahead and bring on

(02:04):
our co host. We have Taradi ulus Se. Tara was there at
the boot camp two and you couldsee Tara also on sky Tour livestream with
Mark the Antonio right here on KGRA. What's up Tara? Hey, what's
up Katie? What's up everyone?Hi? And let's bring in Shane Hurd.
Shane Hurd is the assistant state directorfor Arizona Move On and is on
the airt Hey Shane, and wasout there at the boot camp. But

(02:27):
it's so great the three of ushanging out. I think we have a
picture of the three of us kindof chilling out there. So that was
out there, really fun getting yep, there we are absolutely really you know,
it was a little hot. Imean for November, it's like what
out there, Needles Vistaya Vista waslike eighty five degrees. No, I

(02:47):
think it was more like ninety something. Oh, no, like ninety five.
I think my car said ninety fivewhen we were leaving. So it
was very warm in the desert,very warm. And I'm always amazed at
how quickly, boy, it justdrops, Like as soon as that sun
goes down up there in the desert, you go from sweating hot diyan dehydrating.

(03:08):
You know, you had to hydrated, to just like two jackets.
I have my big parka on withthe head. You know, it was
freezing. It's the desert. Yeah. Now you get a forty degree temperature
swing in an hour. Yep.Yeah, crazy stuff. Anyway, it

(03:28):
was a great time. And Tara, what do you have to kick us
off tonight? Well, well,today's name is for all you football fans
out there. You know, it'sgoing strong. So this shows a ref
and an alien on the field andthe ref is shouting personal foul, vaporizing
the receiver first down. I justsee it. What I love about this

(03:52):
It looks like he has a sparetire. The alien he like he ate
an inner tube maybe side him orsomething. Who knows. That's funny.
Don't you feel like you want todo that? On some of those places
they call them, Oh my goodness. Well, moving on, so I'm
not sure. I'm sure. I'mnot the first to mention because I've been

(04:13):
out to the stores that the holidaysare coming up, and with that in
mind, I think I put Christmasstuff out already month ago. I want
to know what I like to waittill after Thanksgiving. You know, let's
get these Thanksgiving and then do Christmas. But I get it, I get
it. I don't get that stuffout soon. I have a quick question,

(04:34):
though, Do either one of youhave a favorite football team? No
comment, Oh, Arizona Cardinals.I have to go with them because I'm
a hometown person. You know,I live here, So you have to
go with the team that you're near, right or you two? I'm not
are they doing well? Because Iknow I don't follow the up, but
I just know our Denver, Broncos. I think they didn't start out so

(04:55):
well. I don't. I'm justlike, oh, anyway, all right,
sorry to interrupt. You go,oh it's all good. Oh it's
all good. Cardinals last place,so all right to go. Oh my
gosh, well's okay. What Ihad in mind about the holidays was the
wrapping paper. You got to getplan ahead if you're going to order that.

(05:16):
So here's on Etsy, of course, all sorts of fun UFO and
alien wrapping papers. And here youhave alien and UFO invasion. So yeah,
these are cool. This is dancingalien and some Christmas trees and he's
just out there. Yeah, I'mhaving a good time. This is a
sci fi theme in the form oflike layered patches, and you have Mars

(05:39):
and the space and aliens. It'sreally kind of fun. These are cool
blue UFOs, kind of I lovethe color. Here you have Asquatch Santa
and UFOs beaming down presence. Ohyeah, here's some reverse green alien head

(06:00):
and so that's kind of cool.Usually they're the green the other way and
that kind of cool. Here youhave this. This is the retro eighties
UFOs and aliens. It's kind ofpixelated there, that's kind of cool.
I love that color's good too,Jack UFO with green alien drivers and this

(06:23):
bigfoot alien and UFO paper can beYeah, that can be dressed up for
formal occasions as well. Wedding rapyes, I think so, I do
it. I do it. Okay. This is the Bob Lazar Sport Model
Area fifty one model paper. Sonice, cool little drawing. Here we
here we have Santa Alien Santa.He's kind of cool. This is an

(06:47):
alien Santa Christmas movie. I guessmaybe that would be counting to it,
but I like it as a goodWhy not colorful UFO space paper? Yeah,
that's kind of fun. And here'ssome funny alien with an astronaut.
And this is my favorite favorite Andrewand all of his wheels. You know,

(07:09):
he's got his slay, the plane, the rocket, and the UFO.
And check out the fun ribbons thatyou can find on Etsy to pretty
up your gifts. So again,where else can you find all this stuff
but Etsy? So so plan nowto get your wrapping paper to wrap all
those gifts you're gonna get at thelast minute or ahead of time, depending

(07:30):
on who you are. So I'vebeen like a hundred bucks on because I
liked all of those me too.Yeah, they're fun. Yeah. Well,
Shane, what's up? What haveyou heard lately? Yeah? Have
you guys heard our friends over atARROW, the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office

(07:56):
has launched their website for military membersto make reports to the website regarding UAP.
But when I was looking through thefine print, something kind of surprised
me. I'm going to just readthis from you or for you. It
says that the new secure system getthis is not intended as a reporting mechanism

(08:22):
for military personnel who have made actualobservations of UAPs themselves. Instead, the
new reporting page on arrow's website emphasizesthat information should only be provided by those
who have personal knowledge of US governmentprograms related to UAP. Not a little

(08:46):
weird. I mean you thinking,hey, a reporting page, you can
report ad No, we don't wantwe don't want your sightings. We just
want to know if you know aboutgovernment programs that know about you AP.
So kind of weird there. I'mnot a big fan of that. And
you know, when they rolled itout, there was a little bit of

(09:09):
drama and doctor John Kirkpatrick, who'sleading ARROW in the program. He kind
of pushed back on some of theclaims that were being provided under oath during
that those House Committee meetings with DavidGrush and Dave Fraverer and Ryan Graves,

(09:31):
and he made some kind of weirdcomments here, he said, speaking of
them, they are truth seekers asI am, but you certainly would not
get that impression from yesterday's hearing.Kind of taken a shot at it.
He says here that US military personnelor other government employees who have observed what

(09:56):
they believed it be you UAP,are to continue to follow the process established
by your service branch or federal agencyto report the information to errow UH.
And so they maintain that there isno evidence of any UAP sidings present that

(10:16):
represent evidence of extraterrestrial technologies, althoughit concedes that some of the objects observed
by US personnel do appear to displayevents capabilities that weren't for their investigation.
So we've got a video. Thisis a video that they rolled out actually

(10:37):
as part of their response. Andwhen we roll that people can just take
a look. Okay, oh,I can see that drone going. It

(11:03):
looks like a drone. I don'tknow what that is. I think it's
incredible Shane, that you are doingthis case tonight. Yes, the case
I pulled for case of the book. Well, you guys will see.
It's one of those synchronistic things.Again. I'm like, oh my gosh,
I can't believe you pulled that anyway. So well, that one is

(11:26):
allegedly from uh or Iraq Muscle Iraqand they have not identified it. But
it's curious what you guys might think, you know, when you see these
sorts of UAP that are these small, silvery ish balls or sphears, uh,

(11:50):
you know, I think it's clearthat there's not uh something some alien
inside it, mini alien or whatever. I kind of feel like, if
they're not ours and you know there'ssomething else that maybe they're more like probes,
you know, something like we wouldlikely do if we were going to
investigate, you know, like we'redoing with Mars right now. Right We're

(12:13):
sending rovers and little helicopters and allthat in advance. And I'm thinking maybe
that's kind of what might explain me. It seems like we're just getting so
many of these white or silver sphericalsidings all over the world every single day.
I mean, the volume is kindof blowing me away. I don't
know what to think of it.But what do you guys think? Well?

(12:35):
It go ahead, Katy, No, no, no, after you.
No. It's really interesting. Itlooks like it could be a drone
to me, but because there's noevidence of propulsion or anything from that video,
it's really amazing. And I thoughtit was interesting that that video was
shot from a drone itself and thedrone was trying to follow it from what

(12:58):
I understand, So it's it's interesting, Kay, What do you have to
say? I was just gonna say, along with Shane, like the reports
of these, like I said,the report I'm going to do here in
a little bit forer case a week, are these silver balls? It also
reminds me of Skinwalker. Ranch andJonathan Dover can talk to us hopefully a
little bit about because I know theycapture something like that on the series if

(13:22):
I remember correctly. So these sightingsare on the rise, and you're right,
Tara, they they don't. Imean it's a drone taking a picture
of something that's anomalous. I thinkthey're moving too fast, too steady.
I agree with Shane too. There'ssome sort of possibly probe probe or monitoring
or something, and and the reportsof these are on the on the rise,

(13:43):
so I find it fascinating and it'sreally concerning to me. And it
seems kind of apparent that that ERAwants to know what these contract engineers and
employees know, like know, likeyes, on one side, they say
we're going to protect you and grantyou immunity. On the other hand,

(14:05):
it feels kind of suspicious right andcontrolling some sort of narrative. So,
like you, I'm not real comfortablewhat they're trying to do here. It
doesn't seem right to me. Hi, Kathleen, So yeah, really cool
case. Yeah, it's really theseballs are interesting and what are they doing

(14:28):
and what's coming? I mean,it makes me think that we're maybe we're
going to see some some something bighappen within another year or two with the
increase of these balls these fears.Well, it's interesting. With my Mars
case, we don't really know whatwas seen. A'll talk about it,
but it could be something similar towhat they got video of now, So

(14:48):
very interesting. Do you want togo right into that Tara case? Sure
we could if you wanted. Ithink there's a little bit of lag in
my video, so I apologize forthat in advanced folks. But today's case,
MARS case occurred in the air onMarch twenty fifth, two thousand and

(15:09):
four, around eight pm between DesMoines, Iowa and Omaha, Nebraska,
and basically a Northwest Airlines airbus fromMilwaukee, Wisconsin to La radioed air traffic
control and reported two flights of twounidentified aircraft. So that means a total
of four aircraft. So the pilotsaid that the unidentified aircraft were about fifteen

(15:35):
miles in front of him, travelingin a westerly direction, the same general
direction as the airline, and theiraverage ground speed was four hundred and fifty
five miles an hour. Here's theweather radar map of Omaha for the time
of the sighting and the dark spotsthere represent rain. So the pilot and
crew had the unidentified aircraft in sightfor about fifteen minutes until they grew quite

(15:58):
small and were no longer visible.So what's cool about this case is we
have a selected transcription of the audiobetween the air traffic control and the Northwest
flight crew. So at eighteen fiftynine thirty eight Northwest flight crew, they're
just say that they're curious and they'relooking. At twelve o'clock, basically,
they spotted an object and is askingair traffic control if they have any traffic

(16:21):
in the area of the sighting.Air Traffic Control what altitude Northwest hours maybe
a little higher, which is thirtyfive thousand feet. Air Traffic Control a
negative. So Northwest, okay,I guess it spots on the windscreen,
so you know, so they're gettingthat, and so at nineteen oh one,
the air traffic control says, we'renot showing any aircraft in your area

(16:45):
above or below you, and Northwestsays, isn't that interesting that you should
say that, because we're just noticingthat there are two more ahead of them.
So at nineteen oh four twenty five, air traffic Control asks if they're
getting anything on the TCAs that's thetraffic collision Avoidance system, and Northwest responds

(17:07):
with negative and verifies that there aretwo flights of two objects. So at
nineteen eleven fifty three, air trafficControl relays this message. Here's the website
www dot November uniform foxtrot oscar RomeroCharlie dot org nineteen twenty one, nineteen

(17:32):
twelve o one, the Cruse states, I know what those three letters in
the middle are, and again it'sin UFORC the National UFO Reporting Center.
So the air traffic controller was tellingthe pilots to report it to Newfork so
FA. The FAA acknowledged the explanationand also stated that other pilots had seen

(17:56):
the object. So inquiries were madeto NORAD and Strategic Commands STRATCOM regarding the
unidentified aircraft siding. They did notnote any Uh oh we lost Tara,
Oh no, and Shane, you'remuted. There's a ghost in the machine,

(18:21):
folks. Oh, here she comes. She's back on. Yeah,
tonight. So we're doing isn't it? Yeah? Our technology herd energy today.
There she is all right, continueOkay, I called wherever I was.
But basically inquirers were made to NORADand STRATCOM. But NORAH had said

(18:41):
that no anomalous aircraft were noted onMarch twenty fifth, but that exercises were
conducted over South Dakota and Canada onMarch twenty sixth. The next day,
on March twenty seventh, classified equipmenttesting was conducted. NORA did say that
exercises in as scramble type maneuvers,So one has to ask the question did

(19:04):
the siding on March twenty fifth overNebraska and Iowa influence the decision of NORA
to conduct these exercises the next twodays. So we do know that the
FAA controller contacted Norad on the eveningof the sidings, and upon being relieved
of his shift, the air trafficcontroller who directed the flight did just that.

(19:26):
He submitted the report to the NationalUFO Reporting Sitter, and it is
the controller who referred to the craftas UFOs. Interesting this air traffic controller
was then to appear on a radiotalk show. However, the controller supervisor
wouldn't allow it, and the showwent on and was discussed. And it's

(19:48):
interesting also at nineteen eleven, radarindicated that two potentially fast moving objects about
forty miles ahead of the Northwest flight. So at this distance, I mean
they could have knows, but atthis distance those craft would have had to
be very large to be visible bythe crew. And remember they said they
were fifteen miles away. So thesetypes of returns, however, could be

(20:10):
due to the weather and it wasraining in that area those scattered returns.
So basically, in conclusion, wehave trained observers. The Northwest Airline crew
who cited four objects that they couldn'texplain. Did they a good description of
what these objects look like? Theydid not, if you can believe it.
This was a final report, andI was surprised to find that they

(20:34):
did not explain where they lights where, They didn't even describe it at arm's
length, how big they were.They described the altitude in the distance and
very strange, very strange. Sothere you have it. Yeah, But
nonetheless it's a compelling case, justthe amount of work they do and the
fact that you know, they actuallyrecommend to report it, as you know,

(20:59):
to UFO reporting. Yes, sothat's really interesting. That in itself
is interesting. Well, if theywere objects like Shane's video, you know,
those things could have been moving fastand just as fast as those flights
and and it's kind of hard totell the size of that object in Shane's

(21:21):
video, but it seemed like itwas fairly large, So it's hard to
say. What do you think,Shane, Yeah, I think, Plus
the the text of the conversation betweenthe two, you can tell that they're
being really careful and sensitive and probablydidn't want to put on recording, you

(21:45):
know, two intentsive information and they'rebeing a little cagy about it. You
think about that's even two years beforethe whole Chicago O'Hare siding, right right,
And we're all real familiar with thefact that it was a big taboo
to talk about UFOs in two thousandand four, so it doesn't surprise me.

(22:06):
But yeah, and there's a lotof these cases that we've seen since
then, even haven't we with commercialair traffic over New Mexico, Arizona,
Colorado, Nevada, and we're pilotsreporting seeing this stuff, so it's it's
not unusual from that perspective. Butyeah, these are great signings. And

(22:27):
who knows what it is. Iknow it's cool speaking at airports, another
synchronicity. So and this is what'sthis is what's fascinating. Okay, a
little behind the scene. How werun the show. It's not like Tara
and Shane and I coordinate too awfully. Well, sometimes we're at the last
minute. Especially we're human. We'reall just recovering from the boot camp,

(22:48):
so we're like, ah, soit's really interesting that the three of us
have unwittingly collaborated on these cases.Because I'm going to roll right in the
case of the week that I pullfrom CMS this week. It's quite lengthy,
but you guys are gonna just beamazed here. So it's kind of
long, and I might need myglasses here because the font st guys.

(23:12):
All right, So this is casenumber one three four eight, three to
one. It's a Category two case. It occurred October sixteenth, twenty twenty
three, four o'clock PM out ofSarasota, Florida, just recently. So
this, yeah, this is arecent case. So this is from the

(23:33):
witness right here. I was atSarasota Brandington International Airport waiting for my flight
inside the terminal and I saw thesilver orb outside. Thought it was a
balloon at first, but it didn'tbehave like one. It stayed at the
same elevation altitude the entire time.It was so steady in its flight there
was no way it could have beena maylar balloon that would have reflected light

(23:59):
in that way. So here's theinteresting thing. The wind that day was
north northwest at sixteen miles an hour, but this was traveling southeast Okay during
Okay, So I'm gonna show thefirst original video, and then I cropped
it and slowed it, and thenwe're gonna talk about what the FI concluded.
So to know if you could pleaseroll that first original video, please

(24:45):
compelling. So I went ahead andzoomed and slowed. If we can run
that second video please, m Mall right now, let me read to

(25:36):
you what the f I says here. During the course of this investigation,
numerous sources at Sarasota Bradenton International Airportwere contacted, so good work on the
fi's part. No reports of hazards, drones, emergencies, or complaints were
received on the date of the reportsite reported sighting. Two independent aviation entities

(25:57):
based in SRQ were contact as well. Neither entity had any observation to offer
in relation to this event. Thefirst anomaly that they noted was that of
a fairly consistent protrusion visible on theobject in the numerous frames of the video.
And I saw that as well onthe back. But it didn't tumble,

(26:18):
it didn't turn, it didn't behavelike a typical balloon. The second
was the presence of a white haloor aura prominent around the edges of the
object in question. The wind's effecton the object in comparison to the visible
trees in the background of the videowas made though the object shared visual characteristic
of available Marlar balloons, as behaviorin relation to the wind conditions presented as

(26:42):
inconsistent with what could be considered typical. Further, it appeared to move as
if being intelligently steered. A comparativeanalysts of balloons, drones, aircraft and
known objects was conducted and other forensicapplications were utilized as well. No instances
of post processing were discovered. Duringthat evaluation. It was determined that the

(27:07):
presence of the white halo around theobject was just as likely to be caused
by a magnetic field as it wouldbe from a diffraction or Aberichin phenomena.
It was noted that the presence ofnon physical visual magnetic field has been considered
to be a requirement for the fora genuine UFO, citing this case was
closed as an unknown UAV. Sowhat do you guys think? I think

(27:33):
he got it right? That's unknown. That's pretty good video, pretty crazy
actually, and doesn't it track witheverything else? Like, hey, like
you're saying with the mosl RA videoand then I've seen other of those.
I had a case a couple ofyears ago with that looks just like that

(27:55):
as well some pretty good videos.So yeah, that's I don't know what
to say, you know, tosay these are man made, we have
to say that there is an unknownform of propulsion, right, yes,
I mean around steel ball is nothing, right, we can recreate that.
We see all that kind of stuff, but to perform like it does without

(28:19):
the obvious thrust and lift required ofall flying machines, whether they're jets or
propellers or rots or whatever, it'sstill the aerodynamic principles of thrust and lyft,
and that certainly defies it. So, you know, to really identify
these things, we need to figureout the propulsion. But who knows if

(28:41):
we can ever do it? Threetwo cents? Yeah, yeah, So,
Chanelle says, you can run theone from Iraq and the original one
from this case back to back.Let's do that really quick, just so
we compare in real time, andthen we'll get Tara's comments on that.
Yeah. Cool, All right,Let's see this. That one's moving a

(29:07):
little faster than ours, but notby much. It's about the same size,
it appears to me anyway, sosmoothly. Yeah, they are going
pretty smooth. I would love tosee it stops. Let's stop and just
turn ninety degrees. Now that wewere muted during that, and I was

(29:51):
like, I would tell everybody atthe gate to like run to the window
and get everybody's opinion protrusion out ofthe back. Like if it's a balloon,
you would, I think it would. It stayed. It was almost
as if it was part of thepropulsion system, Like it didn't stumble,
It didn't act like a balloon wouldact, especially with what was it,
fourteen mile an hour winds. No, it had a mission. It was

(30:12):
going somewhere. It's strange. Yeah, cool case. Yeah, okay,
well, good job. Aren't thosethings coming out the back? Haven't we
had guests? Haven't we had gueststalk about those things coming out the back?
That's kind of a clue that it'sa man made thing, because if
it was an alien or UFO typeof thing, why do they need little

(30:37):
bumps or the cells or something,you know that they can just be in
an object. But that's just againsomeone's opinion, I suppose. So do
you guys think that these are comingfrom like a big, bigger type of
ship that might be sitting out somewherehiding behind a cloud. We've heard this.
I mean obviously there's I mean,I don't believe anyway there's little bitty
people piloting these things. I meanthey need to be like, they should

(31:02):
have to be some kind Why wouldthey be flying around our airports like this.
I mean, this is something we'reseeing time and time again. It's
almost as if they want to beseen, you know. Oh yeah,
because if they're probing, they wouldknow that there's a lot of activity and
they would be seen. Yeah,kind of were so, yeah, it's
very cool. You guys did great. Yeah, we all did. We

(31:25):
were like reading each other's minds withouteven knowing it. So, right,
right, right, all right,Well, I think it's that time.
Guys. What do you say webring in our guests, John and here,
let me read his bio, Bringon in so. Jonathan Dover is
a veteran law enforcement officer. Hehas been He has worked with the City
of Winslow, Arizona Police Department,the National Park Services, the Navajo Historic

(31:49):
Historic Preservation Department, and the NavajoNation Rangers. He retired from active duty
as a lieutenant in twenty eleven afterthirty one years. Oh, thank you
so much for doing all that work. During his work on Navajo nation Lands,
along with his regular duties, healong with Stanley Milford Junior, were
assigned over a period of eleven years, to officially investigate and document significant cases

(32:16):
involving Bigfoot, haunting's, Navajo witchcraft, and UFOs, all things we'll discuss
on the show here tonight. JonathanDover on his off time, dances at
Native American pow wows and in theApache in the Apache Tribe of Oklahoma,
Blackfoot Society, the Warrior Society.He has played guitar for forty five years

(32:40):
and is a fly fisherman. Soplease welcome Jonathan Dover to the show.
John, John Hie, Oh,it's good to see all of you since
just a couple of days ago.Yes, time flies. Glad you made
it back home safely. John,you live a long way, so you

(33:04):
appreciate you com that's great. Ikind of want to start out. I
mean, I have a question foryou, and I've never asked you this
before all the times we've talked toone another before. Your work that you
did with the Navajo Police Department inthat and you know those eleven years you
spent looking at the different hauntings andwitchcraft and bigfoot and unusual things. Did

(33:29):
you have experience when you were youngeror did you have an interest in any
of these things when you were ayounger guy? Well, first of all,
a minor correction, I was nevera Navajo police officer. OK.
There there are several different entities onthe reservation. Navajo rangers take care of

(33:52):
the resources, the resource law enforcement. So we're the park police in the
park areas. We patrolled the lakes, game and fish, forestry, mines,
minerals, agriculture, and then inthe absence of a police officer or

(34:13):
an emergency situation, we would dopolice duties too. Got youa so cool?
So you don't like give people ticketsor arrest them throw them in the
slammer all the time, all thetime? Watch that. That's right,
you almost did that. But didyou have an interest when you were a
younger guy? I mean, didyou ever have any experiences as a younger

(34:37):
guy before you kind of were propelledinto this world? In let's see,
I would have been about junior highage, maybe nineteen seventy ish, and
we spend all our summers up onthe Naval reservation. So we're up in

(34:59):
the Chusca Mountain. My grandparents hada cabin up there, and we're coming
out. We would leave about twoin the morning and drive and drive and
drive all the way. I wasborn and raised in Los Angeles, And
on the way out we saw ared orb weaving back and forth through the

(35:22):
trees, totally silent. My grandfatherwas driving, he'd stop the truck.
I was sitting up front between himand my grandmother, and this thing was
just it was weaving through the trees, and then it went up a hill.
It passed us and went up thishill, and the hills got pine

(35:45):
trees all over it, and oaktrees and everything else. And as it
went up, it kept weaving throughthe trees, but we couldn't hear a
sound. My grandfather got out ofthe truck, and of course he grabbed
his lever action thirty thirty and announced, I'm going to shoot this thing,
and my grandmother was screaming at him, you know, you leave it alone,

(36:09):
you you know, get back inthe truck. What she told us,
or what she told said about itwas that she thought it was a
Navo skin walker because sometimes they havea red light when they travel, so

(36:30):
she didn't want any retribution coming tothe family up there. At the same
time, you know, after readinga lot of books on this subject,
I determined that it could have beenan orb of some kind. But it
was only about maybe about the sizeof a basketball or a volleyball, I

(36:52):
should say, about that size,and it was red and you could see
the you could see the light onthe ground below it. Oh cool,
And I had herd sheep all overthat area. And I happen to know
that when it went up the mountain, there's no trails and no roads up

(37:14):
that way. Interesting, that's cool. So, John, I have like
a bunch of cases I'd love tohave you and talk about, but the
one that comes to my mind immediately, since at least three the three out

(37:35):
of the four of us here fromArizona, and in March thirteenth, nineteen
ninety seven, we know that thePhoenix Lights incident occurred where thousands of people
saw these crafts fly over the stateof Arizona, including the Metro Phoenix area
of you know, a couple millionpeople. But I was fascinated to find

(37:57):
out from you that that event wasactually preceded by an event, would you
mind telling folks about that? Sure? On that particular night, my then
brother in law comes running into thehouse and he says, hey, this

(38:17):
triangle shaped craft just went over thetop of the house. It was totally
silent, and so, of course, you know, we all go bombing
outside into the yard and on thehorizon we could see a string of lights,
maybe seven of them, and theywere just merely going along at a

(38:40):
constant pace in a counterclockwise direction alongthe horizon, circling our town. As
it was starting to get dark,people were coming out of their houses.
They shut their lights off on theirfront porches, lawn, furniture out,

(39:01):
and everybody just sat out and watchedthis light show for like thirty or forty
minutes. These things just kept circling. I live in a place called Loop
l Eupp. Now it's fifty milesnortheast of Flagstaff, so I understood that

(39:23):
these lights were seen from the northend of Flagstaff, on the other side
of the mountain there. They wereseen in Cameron and Gray Mountain. They
were seen in Tuba City, youknow, from a distance. They were
also seen from Second Mesa, whichis north of us and they were seen

(39:47):
in Delcon and Winslow, which isall these towns surround our town. Like
I said, they were silent.And the interest thing about these lights is
the first one would change color.It would start out maybe as orange,
and it would turn red, andthen it would turn green. It just

(40:13):
just kept changing color very slowly,and the next one in line would change
color after the first one did tothe same color, and the next and
the next kind of like follow theleader. At one point the first one
would start to fluoresce like a brightwhite flare, and then the next one

(40:37):
would follow suit. The next onewould follow suit, and so we just
thought, maybe it's a UFO trainingflight. Uh and and you know they're
they're teaching them how to operate theircraft or something. We don't know.
So this is this is day before, this is the day before. Wow.

(41:00):
So we watched them and watched them, and I actually had a video
camera that was and I was shootinghigh eight video and I was narrating it,
and I had it on a fluidahead tripod and I just kept talking

(41:23):
as they were going around and explainingwhat I was seeing in which direction and
you know, what the weather waslike, what the wind was like even
at the end, there was afixed wing, single prop aircraft going over
the top, maybe about three thousandfeet up, and you could hear the

(41:44):
soft purr of the engine of thatfixed wing. But these things they didn't
have any sound at the end.They all kind of drifted off and went
to the west and ended up someprobably over the Grand Canyon area. I
got on the phone and I calledthe County Sheriff's department, and I have

(42:13):
being a law enforcement officer, Ihad the non emergency number, and I
spoke to one of the dispatchers andI asked them. I says, do
you have any officers up on thenorth end of Flagstaff that can verify something
for me? And the dispatcher says, we don't have anybody up there.
What do you need? And backthen, you didn't talk about UFOs.

(42:36):
You didn't talk about any of thisstuff because people would say you're crazy.
So I just said, never mind, and you know, hung up the
phone. And this is when wehad landline phones. Yeah. So unfortunately,
several days, maybe a week later, I was contacted by somebody named

(43:01):
Greg from he lived in trying tothink of the name of that place now,
it's just east of Gallup. There'sa pretty large town over there,
between Gallup and and Grants, NewMexico. And he said, I'm a

(43:24):
UFO investigator, and I understand you'vegot video. I'd like to use it
and do a scientific analysis. Andback in those days, you're just trying
to be helpful. I can't.I can't do anything with it. You
know, I'm sure not going tocall attention to myself. And so I

(43:45):
said, sure, here you go. And well he wasn't a man in
black because he was wearing we callthem wife beater white T shirts, you
know, the the sleeveless ones,and and he looked like he was a
muscle builder. And I never heardfrom him again, and I never got

(44:08):
to take back again. And thistoday's day, I keep thinking, oh
my goodness, you know, ifI still had that, well, you
know what, I think one thingthat Okay, try that again. We
lost to Shane, Yeah, welost. Were dealing with lag Are you

(44:36):
time traveling again? No, Iwas just gonna say that. You know,
it really shows from an investigator standpointthat any siding could potentially be part
of a group of sidings. Andin fact, we're trained to move On

(44:58):
investigators to you check for other casesor reports made on that same day or
days before and days after, andwe checked multiple reporting sources like Newfork,
move On API and others, andit just I was shocked to hear just
recently that that activity had happened priorto the Phoenix Lights event and that got

(45:23):
all the attention, but there wasa precursor to it, and I just
think that's fascinating. So we reallygot to be you know, have a
very open mind. And I thinkit even reflects on like the accounts we've
looked at tonight with that spherical ballright that are appearing everywhere or you know,

(45:45):
yeah, isn't it true? Imean it's interesting too. My mom
lived in Mesa during this the PhoenixSights, and she witnessed the Phoenix Heights
event, so I kind of havea piece of that a little bit too
through my mother. She was asnowbird at the time. But isn't it
true, Jonathan? And maybe youguys know, you know, I that

(46:07):
it wasn't just in Phoenix where thePhoenix Lights were seen. Weren't weren't didn't
they track it in the States aswell? Jonathan? They were seen in
Nevada, and it came down atan angle through I believe Prescott and around
that area, came down through Phoenixand kept on going toward Tucson and people

(46:34):
that were on the Interstate. Italked to one girl that was a witness,
and she said that they pulled overon the ten between Tucson and Phoenix.
She says, all the vehicles pulledover and everybody stood outside their cars
and watched. And after it wentover, they said, nobody asked each

(46:57):
other, did you just see whatI saw? She says. Everybody just
quietly got back in their cars anddrove on. Oh my god. And
Sean, that's really common from casesand stuff. But you did everything right.
You had your video camera and youwere recording everything and like all the

(47:19):
details you've got and then it disappears. But I have a feeling the reason
you were able to record it eventhose years ago was because you are so
trained in all of this, andyou had your cool head about you and
you know, and that's why youwere such a good instructor at the boot
camp this past weekend. And Iknow we wanted kind of to talk about

(47:40):
that at some point, but Iknow Chanel there's some pictures of John and
Stan teaching at the boot camp,and you know, how do you handle
these situations when you see them andhave the presence of mind to actually take
the pictures and you know, handlethe situation. So I'm wondering if you

(48:00):
can talk about what your experience waswith the boot camp a little bit and
about what you helped everybody with.Well, we helped out with the evidence
collection portion, and as law enforcementofficers, we look at evidence. Evidence

(48:21):
speaks for itself. It doesn't makemisleading statements, it doesn't obscure the truth.
It can't. It's just there,and so we stress that evidence collection
is your number one goal. Thenyou talk to your witnesses and you see
if there the witness statements line upwith what you've seen as evidence. And

(48:45):
that's because witnesses are sometimes not themost reliable. They will interpret something,
especially based on their background, andso if they're very religious in nature,
they might have seen a demon oran angel. If Native Americans they've had

(49:08):
a lot of sightings and you know, all down through the ages, and
they they call them star people areor holy ones. And we've actually asked
people on the reservation that have hadnumerous sightings, and we say, have

(49:31):
you ever thought about reporting it tomoufan? And they look at us like
we're crazy, and they say,but if we reported, a whole bunch
of people will come up here andthen the gods won't come back again,
and we don't. We don't wantthat because they have a long history of

(49:53):
the holy people coming to them fromthe stars and imparting knowledge much and John,
you and Stan did you do fieldinvestigations with MOFON and you were the
ones that were able to contact thefolks on the reservations. Well, we
did a few investigations in conjunction withMOFON. We also did investigations with Big

(50:20):
Low Aerospace Research and many other organizations, not just involving UFOs, but we
did investigations of big voter organizations.We worked with medicine men when it came
to the skin walker phenomenon and withhauntings. We had to find people that

(50:45):
were adept at investigating those kind ofcases, including medicine men and including religious
folks that were able to try todo some exorcism to get rid of phenomenon
that was happening in buildings. Right. So, Jonathan, we have about

(51:08):
maybe a little less than six minutesbefore we take our break at the top
of the hour. But do youbelieve? And I want to talk to
you more after the break too,about how our perspectives and our beliefs interplay
with the phenomenon in general. Butdo you believe like the sasquatch encounters and
the hauntings and the UFOs, doyou think they're connected? And if so,

(51:30):
how might that be? Well,I've been trained at the Federal Law
Enforcement Training Center in Glencoe, Georgia, as a criminal investigator, and so
I'm certified to do that. We, like I said, we look at
all these things. We're looking forcause, causative effect. How you know,

(51:53):
beyond just reporting that something happened,Why is it happening? Was happening?
And we made a determination back intwo thousand and nine that all these
phenomenon can be linked. By lookingat this idea of dimensions, there could
be a dozen dimensions. There couldbe an infinite number of dimensions that are

(52:17):
existing at a different frequency than ours. So imagine that there were all overlaid
one on top of the other.We're coexisting with other dimensions. Our vision
is extremely limited. We can't seeinto the infrared, we can't see into
the X ray spectrums, but there'sa lot of other frequencies out there.

(52:42):
And even Einstein worked on the theoryof this stuff for camouflaging ships, the
unified field theory, and he withdrewit saying that it was incomplete after the
so called Eldridge incident where a shipdisappeared and came back back. So there's

(53:09):
a lot of talk still about that. It's almost like paranormal mythology, have
you, but there is enough informationthere that something could have happened, and
you have to understand. I'll makethis statement in closing right now that I'm
Native American and Native Americans have along history of distrust with the US government

(53:36):
because since fourteen ninety two, there'sover six thousand treaties signed with Indian tribes.
Not a single one of them hasever been kept. So we have
a history. And so when thegovernment comes out and says UFOs don't exist,
or the one I love is thatthey say there's no proof of interstellar

(54:00):
craft, well there could be proofof dimensional craft, but they're specifying interstellar
right, yes, So there's alot of little word twisting going On and
they want to weaponize it, ofcourse, and you know there could be

(54:22):
as many as you know, fiftyor one hundred different races coming to visit
US. I personally think there's asign out in the in space says you
know, you can look all youwant, just don't touch or don't have
any contacts because these people are extremelyviolent and they don't listen. And you

(54:44):
do. You have Navajos, SouthernCheyenne, Apache tribe, Kaiowapachi right from
Oklahoma, and Philippino. Now that'sin your bio. There so many different
tribes and I think it's true andwe only have what less than a and
and a half. But I meanthe traditions, and I think it's interesting
you bring up that they don't wantto contact mof On or I mean,

(55:07):
this is sacred. This has beengoing on for generations and generations the Star
people and they like that, rightor do they? I mean there's the
word we don't say, and there'scertain negative things and I want to touch
on that too that we don't wantto bring forth. But a lot of
these are positive too, correct,Yeah, yeah, they are positive.

(55:28):
The Yaba dancers represent the Star peopleand it's interesting that there's ten or twelve
of them. The last answer isalways called a clown and he covorts around,
he does everything backwards, does everythingwrong, won't listen, and he
actually represents the five fingered people.That's you and me are the clowns.

(55:54):
Yeah, you're the clown We allare. I don't have that nature.
No. I think that's hilarious thatyou know. I often wonder one minute
left. I think you're right thatthere must be some sort of rule because
we're all wondering, like I mean, it's like they're making themselves known,

(56:15):
but yet they keep their distance.So I feel like there has to be
some sort of rules in place orsomething that happened. And as far as
clowns go and rule breakers, I'mjust waiting for some star being to break
the rules. And why isn't thishappening? Well, I want to know,

(56:37):
do you? I think there couldbe so many different ones, And
if you look in fourteen ninety two, there were so many different nations and
continents coming to the Americas to findtobacco, to find spices, to find
gold, silver, all kinds ofprecious metals, to get mass, timbers,

(57:00):
potash, you know, what haveyou to spread religion, and this
could be what we're seeing with theseother beings, that they're all here for
a different reason, and we tryto pin one reason on them. And
I don't think that's that's the rightanswer. Yeah, all right, break

(57:21):
time, guys. We'll see youin a minute. All right, welcome
back, everybody. It is timefor an evening on Earth with an extraterrestrial.
So Jonathan, every guest, weasked these all important questions here.
So let's pretend that one of theseI don't know how many races there ets

(57:45):
are out there, but let's sayone comes and visits you. And where
on Earth would you like to takethis et to have dinner? Oh?
Boy, that's a tough one.I think I would cook dinner here at
my house and that way. Thatway, you know, I'd hog all

(58:07):
their time, okay? And whatwould you be cooking them? Anything from
grilled cheese and ham and cheese sandwichto you know, a Chinese stir fry
meal, anything they asked for,all right? And what music would you

(58:30):
introduce them to while you're enjoying yourgrilled cheese sandwich. Oh, I don't
know, there's there's I'm really eclectic. When it comes to music, So
it could be anything from K popand C pop all the way to definitely

(58:51):
John Phillips Susan music to you know, sixties seventies could be electronica. Uh
wow, could even the could beeven the theme themed soundtrack to Forbidden Planet?
Right, all right? And thenif you could recommend a movie for

(59:15):
your extraterrestrial front to watch, whatmovie would you recommend? I think I'd
recommend Close Encounters of the Third Kind? Yeah, any reasons for that in
particular just because it was probably theydid a lot of background research in that
movie, and uh, it's veryapparent that and and there's even some some

(59:40):
background that says that they were tryingto make that movie to do a kind
of a soft introduction that aliens arereal, and but then that got squashed
and so they just ended up doingthe movie. Right, And you have
one question. You can only askone question. What would it be?

(01:00:06):
Why me? Aw? All right? And to that end, do you
think you know, when you werein middle school and your family saw this
orange orb, do you think itwas a precursor to what you're doing now?
And do you think that's connected,like in an introduction so to speak

(01:00:28):
well. Since starting in nineteen eightyfour, I've had numerous sightings triangles,
disc shaped craft, just all kinds, you know, orbs, round craft,
squares, you know, just alldifferent types. And they got so

(01:00:53):
numerous that finally I put a dashcam in my in my vehicle, and
after I did, interestingly enough,I didn't have any more sightings. And
and I'm actually okay with that.So since then I put in a four

(01:01:15):
K camera in my windshield that'll reallyget all the details. And still haven't
seen anything. And you know,that's fine, So now we know how
to repel them. Yeah, yeah, although I haven't checked the footage.
For all I know, they couldhave landed right in the middle of the
highway in front of me, abductedme, did whatever they did, and

(01:01:37):
then erased my memory. So Ihave no idea and I never looked at
the footage. Fascinating, John,go ahead, Terae. That's why I
thought, John, do you thinkyou have so many sightings because of where

(01:01:57):
you're at on the reservation. Imean, it's such a broad expanse,
and you and Stan were out thereon your own, and you'd have to
travel for a long time to getto places. Sometimes and do you think
that contributed to a lot of yoursightings because of your location or is there
something else to it. I thinkthat contributed a lot to it. We

(01:02:20):
were out all hours of the night, all hours of the early morning hours,
so there was a lot of potentialexposure to that kind of stuff,
and then we were investigating those typeof cases. One siding that I had
was right after a three day bigfootinvestigation that we had done along the San

(01:02:45):
Juan River up around Bloomfield, NewMexico. And in that case, we
had thirty people who reported seeing bigfootas we got done, Yeah, thirty,
and they had actually gone with thepolice department, and the lieutenant there
met with them, and when thepress asked him about it, he actually

(01:03:08):
said, ha ha ha, Iwonder how much these people have had to
drink. And so as a result, the people did not want to work
with the police department anymore, andthey asked for the rangers. We sent
a six man team out there withFord looking in for red systems and PVS

(01:03:30):
fourteen night vision equipment, and wespent three days and two nights combing the
area and talking to witnesses, andwe came out with foot track evidence.
We came out with hair samples.The hair samples actually came back unknown carnivore,

(01:03:52):
which is really weird because you haveto understand that there is a database
for the whole world of animals,and if this was a gorilla, it
would have shown up as a gorilla, and it didn't. It just all

(01:04:12):
they could say was unknown carnivore.So at the end of this thing,
I'm on my way home, andthis is on the other side of the
reservation, so it's going to takeme pretty close to five hours to drive.
And I'm driving back. At twopoint thirty in the morning, I
passed through Indian Wells what they callthe Sugar Bowl, and I get up

(01:04:39):
on top and I see what lookslike a mercury vapor street light off the
side of the road to my right, and I looked at it as green
color, which is kind of unusual, but it's about the size of what
you would see with a street light. And as I keep driving, I

(01:05:01):
noticed this light was now behind meand it was about one hundred yards back.
So as i'd went over the hills, I would see it pop up
and there's a glow underneath it.As I got near a town called Delcon,
it veered off to the left.Now during this time, I actually

(01:05:24):
I remember, I'm armed, Ihave a shotgun, I had a car
being, I have a pistol,And I thought, should I turn around
and confront it? But I decided, number one, I'm tired, and
number two, I don't want anythingnegative to happen. We don't want to
provoke it and provide negative energy forit defeat on. So I just kept

(01:05:47):
going. It veered off to theleft side or to the south side of
the highway and went out maybe amile and a half to where there was
a mesa, and went up ontop of the mesa, and then it
started to parallel my course. Itwent like that for another let's see ten

(01:06:08):
ten miles to eighty seven junction,about another fifteen miles, and it turned
red. So it went from greento red. And I started getting a
kind of an uneasy feeling that maybeit didn't, you know, and maybe
it's just just the idea that itwas red. And so I watched it

(01:06:33):
and watched it, and I watchedit actually just fade out slowly and disappear.
So maybe it's some reasons for thedifferent colors green Red. Do you
have any theories on that? Noidea, no idea at all. But
that was the only time I feltkind of uneasy about something, just because

(01:06:57):
I knew it was following me andit was interested in whatever I was doing.
I had its attention. There areno other vehicles on the road,
and you know, you don't liketo put yourself in dangerous situations, and
ye, you don't know what they'regoing to do, So it was very

(01:07:19):
strange to me. Now I wasseeing other craft. I saw a huge
cigar shape one and I was onlymaybe one hundred yards away from it,
And if it had stopped and landed, I would have walked up to it
and knocked on the door and askedfor a ride. Can you tell us
a little bit more about that?I mean, that's compelling. Well,

(01:07:43):
I was with my I guess she'smy ex wife now. And nineteen eighty
four, we're coming back from Winslowin the middle of the night. We
lived on the reservation, just offof what they call it Buffalo Range Road,
where near where the Twin Arrows Casinois now located, and we're going

(01:08:04):
north on a dirt road. It'sreally rocky. You have to go slow.
And as we got out toward therailroad tracks, maybe about six miles
from the highway, I see ahuge cigar shaped craft and all it has
you can see the silhouette over thetop, and it has a light from

(01:08:29):
the top from the front shining down, very colimated beam. And it's only
going about fifteen miles twenty miles anhour, and you could hear this really
really heavy machinery, just just thisrum rum ru ru, and it was
loud. And now we live bythe railroad tracks out there for a lot

(01:08:55):
of years, and I can tellyou I know what Diesel locomotives sound like,
with the with the ATF or whatdo they call that, Santa Fe
and Burlington Northern, and they havea very distinctive sound that you recognize because
after you get used to it,you can sleep through it. So I

(01:09:17):
got, I stopped the car,turned off the engine, got out of
the door. I did I dida Molder thing. I looked at my
watch and noted what time it wasin case I lost any time. I
don't know how that works, butthat's what that's what Molder did on the
X files. And I stood therewatching it, and it was heading toward

(01:09:43):
Flagstaff to the west, and itjust, you know, just went along
like you know, nothing's bothering it. And it was probably about three hundred
feet long. And and then youknow, the wife is screaming at me,
get in the car, Get inthe car, Get in the car.

(01:10:04):
And finally I did. After itwent out of sight and we got
back to the house. We didn'thave any electricity or running water out there.
And as we get to the house, she saw a shooting star gover
the top and she screamed, therecoming back, and she ran into the

(01:10:30):
house. And you know, Iwas kind of chuckling to myself because I
knew it was a shooting star.Years later I asked her, I says,
do you remember that thing? Andshe actually looked me get in the
eye, and she says, itnever happened. So I was scared or

(01:10:55):
something. She was terrified or traumatized. Yeah, and and me, you
know, like I said, Iwanted to ride. It affects us all
differently. It's amazing. Go ahead, Shane, I know you had something.
We'll wait for your latency. Shane. You there, Shane, Shan

(01:11:26):
your hero Shane. Oh, he'sfrozen on my hand and he's yeah,
I let's give him one second here, maybe he can sure there he is,
Okay, go ahead, Shane.You had a question, Shane,

(01:11:49):
he's trying. Okay, uh,hopefully the latency it's something with the night.
I think, yep, it's buffering. The whole day has been sort
of kind of goofy, like this, what is going on? At least
we're all in good company, soI kind of think that Shane. I'm

(01:12:13):
reading his mind now. I thinkShane wanted to ask you about the coins
in that event. Yeah, Ithink he's going to try and reboot.
Okay, the coins in which event, Well, let's start with the first
one. And you've had several severalI was only aware one, so this
will be new to me. Well, there's been a bunch of them,

(01:12:34):
and this is mainly standard investigation,so I'll tell you his story. There
was an office building. They werehaving a lot of polger guysed activity,
screams, things like that. Therewas a young lady that worked there.

(01:12:56):
She was getting phone calls at herhome that were coming from her office phone.
That's crazy in the middle of thenight, usually around three o'clock,
three to twenty in the morning.So they actually asked the police department and
the phone company if they could determinewho is making those calls because the building's

(01:13:16):
locked up and it has an alarmsystem, right, so nobody should be
in there, but these calls werebeing made, so people were getting freaked
out. They had medicine men comein and do ceremonies to quell this thing.
And you have to understand that WindowRock is a place that had a

(01:13:39):
lot of violence occur there during theLong Walk when the Navajo's rounded up and
forced march to Bosci Redondo. Theyactually were rounded up and between Fort Defiance
and Say Benito, they were incamp there for a time and a lot

(01:14:00):
of young girls were raped and murdered, a lot of women were killed,
a lot of old men died,and it was it was bad times.
And then they were force marched aboutalmost three hundred miles and in one case
they actually marched them to Santa Feand marched them through the streets before they

(01:14:27):
went to Boscy Redondo. So andpeople were falling out and dying all along
the way, kind of like aBatan death march thing. So a lot
of those rocks, the sandstone formationsin that area appear to have soaked up
a lot of this negative energy,and so there's a lot of hauntings and

(01:14:51):
ghost sidings in that area. Andso Stan went to verify that something was
happening, and he took he tookthree other guys with him and locked themselves
into the building. And during theinvestigation, there was a whole bunch of
other things happen. I won't getinto that right now, but they started

(01:15:15):
hearing coins that would drop, andyou know, they onto concrete, and
a coin dropping on concrete has avery distinctive sound. And they said that
these coins pretty soon they could actuallysee them materialize in the air and fall
to the floor, or they wouldcome flying across, you know, from

(01:15:38):
a corner of the room and hitpeople and bounce and roll and you know,
spin. And over two nights duringthis investigation, they called this an
a port app or RT and overtwo nights, sixty five of these coins

(01:16:03):
ported and they bounced, they rolled. I remember Stan called me up in
the middle of the night on thefirst night and says, I've got all
these coins falling. What do Ido? And I told him he probably
drove him nuts. I said,if you're going to investigate it properly.

(01:16:24):
Each coin needs to be marked,photographed with a rule on the side.
You had to measure from two separatewalls in the room to verify its location
on a grid coordinate system. Andeach one needs to be picked up,
bagged and tagged date and time.And he had to common the coins like

(01:16:47):
date, size, were the sametype of coin. What were the coins?
I mean they were us coins.They were quarters, dimes, nickels,
and pennies. Fourteen of them wereWheat sent pennies because we looked at

(01:17:08):
him. The rest of them werejust you know, run of the mill.
But the interesting thing about that caseis that out of all those sixty
five coins, they all landed headsup, which is a statistical impossibility,
right, And after the most subliminalmessage heads up, Yeah, that's what

(01:17:33):
stand thinks. And after that,this phenomenon followed him home to his house
and to other places, and it'sbeen with him ever since. Even just
a few weeks ago, he hada coin show up. Well, actually

(01:17:54):
on this trip to Phoenix, hehad a coin show up. Really yeah
did yeah? And it was headsup? Heads up? Are they mostly
dimes? Because I hear I hearabout dimes a lot, and you know,
dimes and pennies from having dimes andpennies. So what showed up for
him this last weekend? It wasa coin from the Republic of Panama.

(01:18:23):
What, oh, weird, that'srandom. Yeah, so you know,
and he's had a Taiwanese two uncoin show up also at his house.
We were hoping that that meant thatwe were going to get to go to
Taiwan and speak, but that neverhappened. Investigate John, I have a

(01:18:48):
question then, So it is sothis is paranormal activity, and so you
and and stand now are the paranormalRangers. Can you talk a little bit
about what that means and what youguys are up to these days? Well,
we could not use the term thatwe were Navajo Rangers, and just

(01:19:14):
for everybody's information, somehow we keepgetting referred to as the Arizona Rangers.
The Arizona Rangers are a volunteer POSSEformation in I believe, Maricopa County,
and we are not posse and we'renot volunteers. We were volunteerd to do

(01:19:41):
this stuff. So we are NavajoRangers. Our jurisdiction went into four states.
Colorado, Utah, Arizona, andNew Mexico. We're federal law enforcement
officers and tribal officers, so thatgoes a long way past being uh you

(01:20:04):
know Arizona rangers. For me,I had over four thousand hours of training.
Uh, So you know, Ijust want to clear that up for
everybody. So, yeah, this, this this stuff has happened all through

(01:20:24):
our careers. You know, wewere assigned to these cases and some of
these things just seemed to attach tous and it doesn't bother us too much,
except for cases involving the Navo skinWalkers. We have to be very

(01:20:44):
very careful about those. And andyeah, go ahead, see can we
talk a little bit about that theFour Corners area? Bring up Colorado,
Utah and all that and why wewere discussing the Rocky Mountain Ranch and you
know, both you and I areon the Beyond Skinwalker now during research and

(01:21:08):
experiments, and I had mentioned toyou, you know, about the Sand
Creek Massacre and the area in Coloradoand you have personal ties to this.
Do you mind sharing some of thathistory in how you might think this kind
of plays into this these areas andhow they might be interconnected and what might

(01:21:30):
be happening with that. Well.In the area of southeastern Colorado in eighteen
sixty four, you had a bandof Indians that were composed of Southern Cheyennees
and summer Rappa Hose that they wereled by Black Kettle and White Anelope who

(01:21:53):
were peace chiefs. The chiefs hadboth met the President of the United States
were given peace medals and a largeAmerican flag for goodwill, and they came
back from Washington, d c.So they were in that area. There
was some skirmishing going on, andthey went to the governor Governor Evidence Evans

(01:22:18):
of Colorado and told him, we'refriendly. Where can we camp so that
you know, you guys will knowwhere we're at and you know we're friendly.
And they were told to camp atSand Creek. So in November,
I believe November eighteenth, they wereencamped at Sand Creek. They were told

(01:22:41):
to fly an American flag from theirtallest lodge pole and put a white flag
underneath it, and that way themilitary would know that they were friendly.
So they camped there. They putthe flag up and there was a Colonel
John Shivington who was in charge ofthe second Colorado Volunteers now these were one

(01:23:09):
hundred day men, so they wereonly kind of like a reserve posse kind
of force. But there was alot of alarmist activity going on, people
saying, oh, you know,so and so got attacked and the Indians
came and attacked him. Well,you know a lot of the settlers were

(01:23:30):
doing the same thing. You know, they saw an Indian, they just
shoot at them. And this wentback and forth, you know, all
along the region up toward the north. So Shivington had aspirations of being the
governor for the state of Colorado,and in those days you had to be

(01:23:54):
an Indian fighter. So he tookhis troops up there. He surrounded a
regular army fort, surrounded them andwould not let soldiers come out, and
then sent the rest of his forceto Sand Creek. He had howitzers,
he had cavalry and infantry, andthey got over there and at daybreak he

(01:24:19):
told them, nits make lice killthem all. So they opened up with
howitzers with air bursts. And asthe howitzers were raining shrapnel down, Wyet
Antelope came out of his teepee andstood under the American flag and held his

(01:24:41):
hands up and was yelling at them, stop stop, you know, we're
friendly, and they kept shooting athim. So finally they said that he
pulled his blanket around him and startedto sing his death song. And his
death song was only the earth andsky last forever. You can hear that

(01:25:01):
now as a line on Kansas,dust and the wind. So he was
shot down where he stood, andthe cavalry charged. And so it was
old men, women and children thatwere in the encampment, and they tried

(01:25:26):
to put up a fight and triedto disengage and get away. A lot
of them froze to death that inthe night. But babies were killed,
women were killed. I won't gointo the details, but you can look
up the Sand Creek massacre and it'shorrendous. John Shivington, I think about

(01:25:47):
it. Almost two hundred of themwere killed. And John Shivington was brought
upon charges and court martialed in Washington, d c. And so they cashiered
him. They said that the USgovernment was wrong and they should repatriate those

(01:26:10):
Indians somehow, and all these yearsthey have not done that. They said
that individuals could not apply for compensation, and the tribe could not apply for
compensation, only that band of Indiansthat was there. So we now have
an organization called the San Creek MassacreDescendants Band. I am a part of

(01:26:33):
that group. My White Antelope wasmy ancestor, so I have chief's blood.
And then we had medicine sit downmatches. Woman was there, ghost
was there, other relatives that werein that engagement, and so you know,

(01:26:57):
I think there were five of themall together that we can trace lineage
to. So we think we think, you know, it's it's it's just
in the way of speculation that alot of this violent death has kind of
tainted the area and caused a lotof negative spirit activity in that area.

(01:27:20):
That's that's coming out. And theysaid that there's a national park there now
a monument and they said, ifyou go there to the Sand Creek Monument,
you can feel the oppression. Youknow, it's it's a physical thing
that you can feel. I agree. I can feel it at the ranch

(01:27:43):
out there. It's pretty close tothat area. All kind of the whole
area is, you know, andyou can feel the energy shift more so
in the evening for whatever reason incertain areas and the more forested areas.
Do you find that true with theareas you've been to with Beyond skin Walker.
And I know you can't talk aboutthe details per se, but can
you tell us a little bit aboutwhat your experience has been filming with Beyond

(01:28:08):
Skinwalker and what you feel, youknow, what the commonalities connections perhaps they're
looking for. Well, let's goto the episode that aired already and this
was last this last season or thisthis year. We went up to a
place called Satan Butte that has alot of skin Walker activity associated with it.

(01:28:30):
We were there doing an investigation becauseUFOs were seen flying near that area
and actually being described as flying intothe Mesa, similar to what they saw
up at Archieletta, Mesa and Goolcy. So the Mesa is actually composed of
the salt, so it's all volcanicrock. And we went up there at

(01:28:57):
night. It was about a threeand a half mile hike in and we
got up on a promontory and wehad all kinds of phenomenon being looked at.
They were looking at frequencies, radiation, they found all of it.
And as we were on top ofthis promontory right next to a cliff,

(01:29:19):
they had their table set up withall the equipment on and you'll see in
the video that we're actually holding thetable down. The temperature is fifteen degrees,
so we're freezing. The wind isblowing, so the temperature is probably
minus something. Oh my gosh.And we were just chilled to the bone.

(01:29:45):
And every time they said let's doanother experiment, the wind would increase,
and so we kept getting stronger andstronger gusts, and the table and
all the computers and everything was readyto blow over the canyon. And so
we're all holding it down. Andthen Art, the medicine man at Harvey

(01:30:13):
and a stand both heard a femalescream from down in the canyon at you
know, right around midnight and hand Art turns around, he says,
it's here, and and one ofthe producers you know, jumped up and
says, oh, maybe we canget a skin walker on video. And

(01:30:39):
we had told him before we evenstarted that if they started looking for that
kind of stuff, we were thereto get scientific data. If they started
looking for skin walkers, we knewthe danger involved in it. And so
right when that was said and Isaid, that's it, we're done,
you and everybody finally agreed, Yeah, that's it. You know, we're

(01:31:03):
done. As soon as everybody agreedthat we were done, and you see
this on the TV show, thewind died. There was absolutely no wind
after that. It was like itwas like you're in the eye of the
hurricane. You know. That's weird. So right, that's kind of the

(01:31:26):
behind the scenes story of that.On the way out, we could sense
that there was something following us.Some of the equipment had to be left
behind because it was just too bulkyfor people that were frozen trying to make
a three and a half mile hike. So they left boxes of equipment along

(01:31:46):
this trail and they said, Ihope it's going to be okay, you
know. Of course, they tookthe cameras out. This is lighting equipment
and other things, and they said, will it be safe? And Art
started laughing, and you know,the medicine man, he says, nobody

(01:32:09):
in the community comes up here.Your equipment is safe, you know,
he says, there will be nobodycoming up here. So they left it
and the next day they went backand all the equipment was still there.
They collected it all and came off. Wow. So that's my story and

(01:32:31):
I'm sticking to it. Did youhave a question, Yeah, you know
here in Arizona. Uh, there'sa lot of you know, Native American
culture and art, and one ofthe things that's real prominent in Arizona ar
Kachina dolls. I think half thehomes and scott still probably have one.

(01:32:55):
But I understand that there's they arethere. They represent something more than just
simply art. Could you kind oftouch on that. Yeah, the Kachina
dolls were originally carved to give tochildren to show them what the Hopey deities

(01:33:16):
look like. These were deities thatcame to them to impart knowledge. So
again, these are star people.Now, what we're starting to suspect is
that the ancient Native Americans knew howto access these dimensional gates. And I

(01:33:39):
think there's just a whole range ofgates out there. Well, they knew
how to use this ancient technology throughchanting and singing and prayer and vibration,
frequency and energy. And if youhad you know, these these Hopey,

(01:34:01):
these ancient hopie where we think thatthey were able to access these gates and
travel to other dimensions, and ifyou had, say a thousand years to
investigate an infinite number of other dimensions. Believe it or not, they have
two hundred and fifty to three hundredand fifty separate kachinas wow and like I

(01:34:28):
said, they represent they represent gods, and they're they're not art. It's
a lot that brings me to aninteresting question. When you do your pow
wow dances and your drumming and you'redancing, have you ever experienced anything like
increasing or the activity rising during theseceremonies, these ceremonies with the drum,

(01:34:54):
the drum is considered sacred. Thearena is considered sacred. A pregnant woman
will not be allowed to come intothe arena because by doing so, she's
offering her unborn child to the gods. And so there's a lot of rules

(01:35:14):
that are associated with the arena.So you know, I won't get into
all those, but there's a wholeidea of things that you know, rules
that you have to obey, andso those areas are considered sacred. Now
in dancing with the Oklahoma Blackfoot Society, it's a three day dance. You're

(01:35:41):
not allowed to video, you cantake photos and we actually had a woman
that came and wanted to be placedbehind the staffs. There are four staffs
that are used in the ceremony,two crook staffs and two spears, all
with eagle feathers on them. TheUS government has asked the tribe if they

(01:36:05):
would come to the White House lawnthree different times and dance, and the
leaders of the society told them thatwe are not here for your president's amusement
and refused. So this this ladyhad stage four cancer and the doctors told

(01:36:30):
her that she only had a limitedamount of time to live. So they
placed her behind the staffs and wedid four songs for her. The songs
always come in force, and atthe end of that song she left.
The very next year she showed upagain. So obviously she's she survived a

(01:36:54):
year, and she came, shecame up to the MC and she wanted
to speak, and she thanked everybodyfor allowing her to be put in front
of the staffs, and she saidthat the doctors had checked her and they
could not find any trace of cancer. Wow. You hear of healings a

(01:37:15):
lot. That's amazing, and thatwas just one case in US. Wow,
John, I have a question foryou, kind of changing the subject,
but you know, you saw thevideo that Shane brought up in Katie's
case of the week and just talkingabout things in the sky, Can you
tell us what do you think thesethings are or what do you think is

(01:37:40):
going on. I think there's somekind of remote device that can come into
our plane of existence. And youhave to understand that we have had reports
of orbs appearing here with a loudpop, almost almost as if air was

(01:38:02):
suddenly displaced, and it will move, it'll hover, it'll do all kinds
of things, and then it'll fadeout and disappear. And these were from
people that had no belief in UFOsat all, but they reported it to
me. So we see this stuffwhere things just suddenly appear in our frame

(01:38:25):
of reference and then disappear, andwe think that they're coming through from other
dimensions as opposed to being extra terrestrialcraft coming from billions of miles and it
would make more sense that way too. Now understand that, you know,

(01:38:46):
we're not just going to say thisuntil we die. If somebody else comes
up with a better theory, wewant to hear it sure, because we're
constantly testing this stuff and where andit's constantly evolving. One of the things
I was able to do at SkinwalkerRanch was that I was able to prove

(01:39:10):
to myself that there's a romantic storythat when the Navajos came back from the
Long Walk, they cursed the Utesand the Ute land with skin walkers,
and you'll hear that story being repeated. It's very romantic and very westerny.
What I found out is that thethere are places of worship up there that

(01:39:34):
have been there for hundreds and hundredsof years, maybe even a thousand years
that the Fremont made and I thinkit was to keep whatever was on the
ranch on that side away from thetribe. So, you know, I'm

(01:39:56):
able to show in my mind thatthis thing has always been in there and
that this phenomenon. You know,in the case of the Satan Butte,
the guy that reported the UFOs alsohad skinwalkers show up at his house.
So there's all kinds of different thingsgoing on that and they're so intermeshed up

(01:40:18):
here on the reservation that you know, we really sometimes don't differentiate much between
them, and it doesn't surprise us. We've also seen correlations in our investigations.
When people start reporting UFO cases,there's a correlation and bigfoot cases that

(01:40:39):
get reported and vice versa connection.Yeah, John I know on the TV
show skin Walker Ranch, there wasan episode I wanted to ask you about
that just I thought was absolutely compelling. Was they were they invited that drum

(01:41:00):
team in h to you know,play rhythms at the base of the mesa
and at the top of the mesawas a stone spiral structure and when they
did this activity, some really oddthings happened and they cut it on video.
Do you recall that and did youexpand on it a little? Oh?

(01:41:25):
Sure. The the people that wereinvolved in that, they are called
Blazing Bear and last year they werethe uh, the winners of the drum
competition at the Gathering of Nations.Uh. They're actually from Oklahoma, and

(01:41:46):
one of them is related to me, so that was kind of cool.
Oh yeah, but I got alongwith all of them. They're all Oklahoma
tribes and my family, part ofmy my mom's family is from Oklahoma,
so when they went out there.This is utilizing Nikola Tesla's three six nine

(01:42:11):
theory. In his three sixty ninetheory, he said that these are magical
numbers. If you ever figured outhow to use them, you could do
anything, and he posited that threerepresents energy, six represents frequency and nine
represents vibration. Well, at SkinwalkerRanch, they have energy. They have

(01:42:34):
an object in the Mesa that isit's been called a battery, but I
think it's more of a capacitor.It can store energy and under certain circumstances
it can release it violently, andI think that's how people are getting injured.

(01:42:55):
They also have frequency, the onepoint six gigahertz. What they didn't
have was the vibration, and soin doing this experiment, they actually had
the drummers just do the drumming justwith the vibration itself, and the mesa

(01:43:15):
where that stone circle is under athermal camera, started to glow and it
became warmer than the surrounding area.You could just it looked like a little
lit up city, you know,with this dome of glowing phosphorates above it.
And then toward the end they actuallyhad two UAPs that came down and

(01:43:42):
you know, sped up and wentinto the mesa. So definitely cause and
effect, and so they may beonto something with that. Do you think
do you think some of these areaslike skin Walker in other you know,
beyond Skinwalker locations, do you thinkthere could be UFO craft or technologies or

(01:44:06):
something hidden underground. And if so, do you think these are waiting dormant
underground until some sort of time whenmaybe they'll come up and be revealed.
What do you think's going on there? Well, we're talking about underground energy,
and these could be lay lines thatare providing some kind of network of

(01:44:29):
energy. They could be Oh,let's see thermal energy underground, thermal energy
that's coming to the surface. Insome areas, like around Galloping on the
reservation, there are areas that havecoal seams and due to teutonic motion,

(01:44:53):
and you have fuel. All youneed is oxygen and a source of heat,
and you can set them on fireunderground and they burn. Look at
Pennsylvania, They've got a whole townthat had to be evacuated because they've got
a coal mine that's on fire.So you have all you have to have

(01:45:16):
is energy of some sort. Someof it could be radiation coming from you
know, there were radioactive logs outhere that were being collected by the government
for the nuclear program. And sothey were strip mining and making uranium tailings

(01:45:36):
pits and taking this material out.And I had to patrol a lot of
that area. So there's a lotgoing on that can provide energy. And
so I think the key there isthat it doesn't necessarily have to be a
buried spaceship. It can be anytype of energy that can be amplified to

(01:46:01):
the point where it can be useful. And if you have the one point
six gigahertz frequency and you have thevibration, and it brings me to a
point that I didn't mention. Remember, I was saying that these ancient peoples
had this technology, ancient technology toaccess these gates. This is my theory

(01:46:25):
right now. When the Spanish camein the sixteen hundreds, they immediately set
about to kill the religious leadership ofthe tribes, and they destroyed the kivas
in the case of the Pueblos andbuilt a Catholic church on top. And

(01:46:45):
the pueblos were told you either convertto Catholicism or you die. And later
on you had the Pueblo revolt wherethe pueblos rose up against them to the
priests drove them out, and forabout eighty years they had some peace before
the people came back again. So, but imagine your priests would be the

(01:47:12):
only ones that knew how these gatesmight work, and if they were suddenly
all killed, then that information isall lost. Wow. John, Some
of the information that may not belost are petroglyphs. Are there a lot
of petroglyphs on the Navajo Nation?And if so, do they represent what

(01:47:36):
you're studying here, like the bigfootsand the aliens? And what can you
tell us about those? There arethousands and thousands of petroglyphs, I mean,
there are so many. They saidthat only about three hundred and fifty
thousand archaeological sites have been mapped.There are probably more than two and a

(01:48:01):
half million sites that some site densitiesare you know, fifteen sites per square
mile, and you know, sothere was a lot, and my job
was to protect them. I wasan archaeological law enforcement specialist, and so
as a result, I worked witharchaeologists and I worked with medicine men to

(01:48:24):
know how to act at these placesand what to do and what not to
do. And so I also didhuman remains for burials, and you know,
whether they're Anasazi or whether they werebasket maker or historic Navajo, I'd

(01:48:44):
have to make a determination based onthe attributes of the skeletal material. If
this was a homicide or if itwas something that was old. Wow,
how interesting. So do most ofthese there's lots of Yeah, I mean,
are they on private land? Andhow do we go about protecting that?

(01:49:05):
We only have a few minutes leftof the show, unfortunately, but
I mean, is there ways toprotect this? And are they in private
lands or public lands or both?They're they're all over the place, They're
all over Arizona, they're all overthe United States, they're all over the
world, and a lot of thesymbology is the same. Yeah, that's

(01:49:26):
so fascinating. That's so fascinating.So do you have anything coming up on
the horizon here? Any we've beenWe've been busy, busy, busy,
going like crazy, and we're finallytaking a break. Yay. So I'm
going to get a chance to stayhome for a while and rest up and

(01:49:47):
looking forward to that. Right.You're a hard worker, Yeah, man,
contribute so much to everything. AndI know we just talked. I
wanted to personally thank you speaking ofyou know, protecting yourself, and that
would be a good way maybe toclose out the show. You know,

(01:50:08):
there's a lot of us that arecurious about the phenomenon we don't know what
we're asking for, d don't knowwhat we're getting into. What are some
ways to protect and you help guideme through ways I could protect myself as
I go forward and get back onthe Colorado Ranch. Can you speak about
that? That would be a goodway to close out the show well in

(01:50:29):
closing and I spoke about this atthe Alien Con in Pasadena. That question
was asked of me, and whatI told them was that take go back
in your your people's history. Ifyou're French, if you're German, if
you're you know, whatever race you'refrom, find out historically what they did

(01:50:55):
to protect themselves and take that asyour own. Understand that the one thing
you have to have. You're goingto pray or you're going to you know,
whether it's to the Creator, whetherit's to Jesus, whether it's to
the Virgin Mary. You're going topray, pray about this, and you're
going to request protection. You haveto have the intent that this is going

(01:51:20):
to protect me. You can't justgo through the motions, but you have
to have the intent that this whateveryou're doing, is going to protect you
and it can. So I wouldleave you with that. That's really good.
Yeah. Intention is a lot anddo you think to with just a

(01:51:42):
minute left? I mean, dowe actively play a role in the phenomena
itself? We can, we canexhibit fear and you know it said,
can you look at a situation withoutnaming it? Naming it, making it
a word causes fear and when youget that emotion going, that phenomenon can

(01:52:06):
actually feed off of that emotion andmanifest even more so, you don't you
know, we go in, Wedon't think about what it is we're investigating.
We just go in and we don'tgo on with a negative attitude or
you know, poke it with astick. We go in with this idea

(01:52:26):
that we're going to be totally neutraland if it wants to manifest, by
all means will allow it to.Right. That's great advice. Stay positive,
don't show fear, be brave.Yeah, yeah, have good intentions
out there. Well, Jonathan,thank you so much for taking the time.

(01:52:47):
I'm glad you get some time torest now. Thank you for being
here. Thank you, Shane,thank you, Tara, thank you,
Chanell, thank you to kag Erraand Bilsco. Watch or we miss you.
He's usually popping in here, buthe's a busy guy, so we
want to thank him as well.I hope thank you to all our listeners
out there, and I hope youguys all have a fantastic rest of your

(01:53:08):
week and we will see you allback next Tuesday night. Take care,
everybody. Thank you, Okay,Katie, Thanks John, Thanks again.

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