Mike Clelland

None

Episode Transcript

(00:06):
Government's tonight, Military's tonight. Eventhe mainstream media denis but they are here,
and I've been clear for very longtime. The Mutual ufhone Network has
been on the fuck lines uncovering thetruth since nineteen sixty nine, and now
we're sharing that truth with you.Welcome, Move on. What's up?

(00:29):
With your hosts Kabi Page, ShaneHearn, and Tara Gidus, exclusively on
the KGr A Digital Broadcasting Network wonderingwhat's up Summer week? What's up?

(00:52):
Everybody? It is another Tuesday nightand you are listening to Move On?
What's Up? Radio? The showthat says discovery starts with curiosity, and
curiosity starts with Mufon, brought toyou by KGr adb dot Com. As
always, we are endorsed by Moufonat the Mutual UFO Network, asking that
all important question are we alone inthe universe? I am your host,

(01:15):
Katie Page, the Colorado MUFON StateDirector. I am so happy to be
here and I thank all of ourlisteners for tuning in. Tonight. We
have an awesome, amazing guest foryou this evening. We're kind of highlighting
all the guests that we'll be speakingat the MUFON Symposium that's just coming up,
like really soon next week, Soif you haven't already, it's not

(01:36):
too late to sign up and headout to Cincinnati for that MUFON symposium.
And also on that Thursday before thesymposia, I think there's just a couple
spots left for that MUFON FI training. So hope to see you all out
at the symposium this year August twentyfourth through the twenty seventh. Also,
I wanted to mention the phenomenon inVirtual Utah. That's always a fun event

(01:57):
to go to and I have somany great friends speaking at that event.
If you're interested in the high strangenessthat that phenomenon is an excellent event to
go to. I would love tobring it in my co host, We
have Tara diu list. You couldsee Tara also right here on KGRA at
sky tore Live with Mark d' antonio. Are you doing, Tara? Hi?
What's up Katie? What's up?Everyone? Hi? What's up?

(02:21):
So? I know I always talkabout the weather. Maybe that's a little
boring, but I get ras becauseyou're like, you know, it's hot
everywhere else and you get your fireplacegoing in the background, but it doesn't
give off any heat. It's likefor ambiance, you know what I mean.
But is it finally cooling down therein Arizona? Is today is like
the first day that there might besome rain here in Phoenix. So we're
hoping. Are you under a hundred? Are you under a hundred? And

(02:43):
no? No, no, nohing. We turn the heat on every night.
It's like in the fifties. Sowe're at and let's say all the
time. And Shane heard also theassistant state director for Phoenix, move on,
is here, weather's high? You'redoing Shane? And that yes,
doing all right? Trying to staycool? Yeah, I bet Now I'll

(03:06):
stay in that air condition, You'llbe all right. So Ara, what
do you have to kick us offtonight? Well, for today, I
have a vintage meme for you.So this meme is from the sixties.
And look it shows two congressmen walkingdown the Pentagon Hallway, passing by the
open door of the US Air ForceDepartment of UFO. Again, so one

(03:30):
congressman states to the other, ifyou ask me, they know about more
about UFOs than they're telling. So, Chanelle, if you can put that
up again, if you guys canlook. It looks like he's having a
spot at one of the amiens doinghis nails, the other's shining his shoes,
another's combing his hair. So it'sit's almost that, you know,

(03:52):
after congressional hearings last the other weeks, it looked like it could have been
drawn today. So thanks, Chanelle, appreciate that. It's funny. It
reminds me of the Wizard of Oz, you know, when they're he's getting
all the pampering done and all thatfun stuff, the cowardly Lions. So

(04:14):
well, today's product. I wantedto talk to you about the move On
Symposium. So the symposium, ifyou go to that website move on symposium
dot com and click on their merchandisetab, you can whether or not you
go to the symposium, you canfind apparel and accessories and there's items such
as these. There's bags and backpacksand duffels and hats, sente shirts and

(04:42):
pillows and hoodies and the blankets andthey have AirPods cases which are cool.
And there's leggings and socks those arekind of fun. And patches. I
love the little heart paths, thehart patch, you name it. These
can be found. And for thosesome of you who do go to the
symposium, make sure you check outall the vendors who will be there.

(05:03):
They'll have lots of cool stuff aswell. But you guys can all go
to move On symposium dot com,go to the merchandise and all this fun
stuff can be shipped directly to you, so enjoy that. And Shane and
I know darn well, those moveOn Duffel bags make great go bags.
Whether you're a paranormal ghost hunter,a sasquatch bigfoot hunter, those Duffel bags

(05:26):
are awesome to put all your coolequipment in. You know, we try
to have one. We try tohave one for you know, our state,
for our fi so if they geta great case, they can grab
that thing and go and look official, love it, love it. That
makes sense well so, and alsojust to quick reminder everyone that it is
summer, so drink water while you'reout playing in the summer sun and hidrate

(05:47):
your cells and boost your immune systemwith fuel Up, so drink fuel Up
daily. And it has everything youneed and nothing you don't, So visit
fuel Up. E g. Lastmove On for our stuff, walks and
saying I have to ask you,what have you heard lately? Yeah,

(06:09):
have you guys heard that there wasactually an alien attack in Peru over the
last week or two. And Ijust thought i'd talk a little bit about
that. You know, I thinkit's a good learning opportunity for us when
we see cases like this or incidentsor reports, and they're very sensationalistic,

(06:30):
right, and so we want tobe able to have a critical thinking and
be able to understand what's really goingon. So, in case you haven't
heard, in Peru, in afairly remote village maybe of a one to
three thousand people, they were reportingthat they were being attacked by get this,
seven foot tall aliens looking like theGoblin in the Spider Man movies flying

(06:58):
around an attack people. And sothat's a pretty sensationalistic thing, right,
Well, so how do we know? How do we know what's true?
What isn't true? Is it youcomplete nonsense or is there something to it?
That kind of thing. So Ijust thought it'd be a good thing
to chat about and just apply littlecritical thinking. So, really, the
possibilities, there's three possibilities. It'seither true, it's either faults, and

(07:25):
if it's faults, it's either anout and out hoax or a misidentification,
and that kind of tracks with UFOsas well. Right, when we do
an investigation, those are kind ofthe options that you have. And so
so how do you tell what aresome things we can do? Obviously we're
not there. Obviously we're dependent onthe reports that come out. And so,

(07:46):
just like any investigation, the firstthing you want to do is kind
of establish the credibility of the report, right, so you consider the source.
Now, I first learned of thison TikTok, and I've seen it
on other social media. I sawit on websites like Yahoo and some others,
and and you know, it comesoff more sort of like a clickbait

(08:09):
type of thing. It's very sensationalistic. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but
you know, that's one thing thatyou need to focus on, is is
you know the credibility of the source. You know, it's not coming out
on the Associated Press, it's notcoming out on on Reuters. You know
it's coming out on these other sites. So that right there kind of makes

(08:30):
me suspect. But again, youcan't write it off, right, So
then the other thing you have tolook at is what kind of evidence is
being presented, and in a fewof the news stories we've seen things like,
uh, you know, they havesome photos and some video cell phone
videos, so it's fairly low quality. It's at night, so you're not

(08:52):
going to see a whole lot.But the frustrating thing if you're going to
really try and investigate that is wedon't have the original photos or videos.
Who can't verify that they happened atthat date and time and place, and
you know that it was events thatare being described, So the evidence is,
you know, not there. It'sit's it's difficult to do much with

(09:15):
that, so it's kind of likehearsay or second or third party. The
other thing I would like to emphasizeis the logic behind it. Right,
So there's kind of two two schoolsof thoughts. So what's being claimed by
the people in this village is thatthese aliens are attacking them, but it
really doesn't say what the attacks are. Nobody's been hurt or I think one

(09:41):
girl got to cut on her neckwhere something had grabbed her and she resisted
and you know, no clear reasonwhat happened there. But but other than
that, these villagers have shot atwhat they've seen and heard in the forest
kind of thing, and and so, but you know, you got to
think, if it's aliens, what'sthe endgame here? What is it they're

(10:01):
trying to do or accomplish? Andthe so called attack just seems to be.
What they're claiming is that it's flyingaround them and it's scaring them,
but it's not really doing anything.So I just question what's the logic behind
them. And then there are somereports of a so called solicitor or an

(10:24):
attorney or a prosecutor whose theory wasthat it was actually not aliens, but
that it was members of some cartelwho are illegally mining gold nearby, and
that they are dressing up in costumesand they are using jet packs to fly

(10:45):
around and scare the people. Andagain, that sounds almost as fantastic as
aliens, doesn't it? Right?Yeah? It does. You have a
couple of quick videos, don't youshay in first the event and then a
little news clipping. Yeah, checkit out. Let's check it out from
video? You can I say,you ain't? I put it the the

(11:09):
hand it fight it? What's upwith it? Who know? No?
I don't know? What what haveyou on? Yeah. Who yeah,

(12:16):
y'all said. Anybody said, yeahsaid anybod y'all said, I got boad,
I ain't scoot you pointing, Isaid another boot money come, I
said, older book because I said, I said, they m pold see
it like here's trucking a ban po. Yeah boss, I mean I joh

(12:50):
go up. But yeah, yeah, I remember. You know everybody said
about you am yet the ready theunit from Beasties, the lean people business,
you know, guy coming to business. Okay, so there we have.

(13:31):
It looks like something was going onthere, but I mean, you
can't really see much with the video, right. The big problem is the
kids aren't sleeping, but you know, we do have reports of Mothman and
other flying cryptids and things, soyou never know. But wasn't there a
video shame of Ben Hanson made somecomments, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
let's check it that out. Thisis having before miners will go in and

(13:54):
try to scare the wits out ofvillagers by pret need to look like aliens,
etc. Ben Hanson is an expert. He is like one of the
best UFO investigators out there, andhe was one of the first people to
throw cold water on all of this. So what was your first clue?
Band You were so quick with yourassessment. Well, thanks for seeing me

(14:16):
up for such high expectations. Firstof all, that so, what's really
weird about this? The whole thingis weird, okay, So let's try
to unpack this a little bit.The events. A lot of the events
that are being reported are true.We have video of the authorities showing up,
We have video of the villagers runningout into the jungle shooting at something,
okay, But after the investigation,what they come out with is they

(14:39):
say that the prosecutor says that theybelieve the police investigation summarizes that these were
miners protecting gold okay with jet packs. That they're flying around on jet packs
with hoods and masks and glowing somethingand going around cutting people's throats. So

(15:01):
let that sit just for a second. It really sounds like an episode of
Scooby Doode where you know, misterWithers puts on a goblin mask and is
trying to protect his gold. Itis almost far fetched as the fact that
the builagers believe these are seven footaliens. Thank you for watching, right,
So, yeah, I kind agreewith this assessment, but you know,

(15:26):
we weren't there, and we're notthere, and you know, it
looks like something's happening, but youknow it's very hard to verify anything.
And I think too what's kind ofinteresting is again the logic. How how
does pretending to be aliens aliens andflying around and harassing them equate to stay

(15:46):
away from our mind? Right?Why would they even connect those dots?
If if you don't want people aroundyour mind, you could probably walk into
the village with a gun and saydon't go near it or we'll shoot you,
and that that that's a pretty clearmessage, right. So again the
logic that isn't there for me,but I do I'll just say I'll conclude
with this last thought. I'm nota conspiracy guy, but I just find

(16:07):
this interesting. So when David Grushcame out with his whistleblower information within a
week or two after we got theLas Vegas alien report, right, and
now we've had our congressional hearing onthis issue about two weeks ago, and
now we have another sensationalistic alien encounter. I don't know if it's just pure

(16:32):
coincident or not, but hey,let's look for the next time that there's
some significant serious news about UAPs andsee if something kind of kooky like this
pops up again, what do youguys think? What do you think?
Dara's cool? But here right,it does show you how you know,
people can feed on this whether it'sreal or not. It does affect people's

(16:53):
lives and they can be impacted forthe rest of their lives as they believe
it to be true, whether itis or not. So that's true and
those Yeah, it's a really goodpoint. And that you know, we
saw a lot of children in thatvideo and that's pretty traumatic the gunfire,
and I'm sure they've experienced more traumain their lives we're used to here in

(17:15):
the States. But still, flyingaliens can can scar or you know,
affect them forever. So that's agood point. And I wanted to make
a comment. I just want tosay Ben Hansen and I have a really
good taste on ET. I sawET on his shelf as well, so
I love it. N Yeah,So we did catch up with Bob Sparing
this week and he has a greatcase to share with us. So Chanel,

(17:38):
if you'd like to run that BobSparring video, that'd be awesome.
Thank doing. Who funds Director ofInternational Investigations. I'd like to thank Katie,
Tara and Shane for having me onand it's good to be back after
your hiatus. I wish Christopher Noelgood luck with his new project. Today,
I want to talk about a casefrom this year from brattle Barrow.

(17:59):
From my case one two one twosix seven that occurred on March eighteenth of
twenty twenty two, at approximately fivepm, A guy was driving down a
highway and this is what he wrotethat he saw today. It approximately five
ten pm. I saw a darkcube hovering at a height of ten to
fifteen feet. It was about eightto ten feet square with round the corners.

(18:22):
It was located on the west sideof Freeway ninety one, within the
city limits of Brattleborough, just northof Exit one heading south. As my
vehicle got within one hundred feet ofthe craft, it started moving slowly away
from the freeway. About four secondslater, it started to cloak and seemed
to just dissolve. The traffic wasvery light and almost non existent. Groundcover

(18:44):
in this area is dense with smallleafless trees, which made it very easy
to see this object. This isa topic that fascinates me. For those
of you who haven't heard Katie Page, your host's story about her childhood experiences.
She was back in Colorado in theseventies. There were things that happened
with small disappearing black boxes on theproperty where she was. I've even sent

(19:10):
her over the years some interesting articlesand apparently it's a fairly you know,
ongoing phenomenon around the world. Butthis witness took the time to take a
screenshot of where he was, specificallyon the highway, and then also he
drew a picture of what he saw. And sometimes I prefer drawings by witnesses

(19:33):
over photographs because what the human Isees is sometimes much more intriguing than what's
caught by a camera. So I'mgoing to do a screen share now if
you don't mind, and here wego. Let me do this one and
this one that share so you cansee Highway ninety one is exactly where the

(20:00):
person stored the object, and righthere is his depiction of what the object
looked like, rounded corners square eightto ten feet in diameter. Fascinating phenomenon.
I hope you enjoyed this small presentation. I hope to see you every
week. Katie It's good to beback with shows out of hiatus, and

(20:22):
I'll see you we'll hopefully next week. Thank you. That's great. How
interest? Thank you? Bob?Yeah, awesok cube I know and cubes
are showing up all over the placeand I can't wait also to get to
the case of the week. Butfirst, Tara, you've been sort of
highlighting teasing a little bit about youknow, the MARS program for move On,

(20:45):
which you're part of. The MARSwas the move On Archive Research and
redacting team. We've spent three overthree years redacting all these old cases.
I think we have the logo forMARS YEP channel if you want to show
the logo there. It is thatMARS Archive Research and Reporting system. So
Ara is going to highlight every weeksomething out of this database. So what

(21:07):
do you have for us this week, Tara, Well, it's exciting that
the archives of the historical cases aregoing to be released for research this year,
and you'll know more about it fromthe move On symposium, so after
that we'll be able to share moreinformation. But this is just a glimpse
of the thousands of digitized files andthese files were all basically most of them

(21:29):
done before computers, and so they'reall hand done and hand correspondence and stuff.
So today's case occurred in December ofnineteen seventy six and Philipston, Massachusetts.
So a state trooper was he drivingoff the freeway lamp when he saw
a glow in the forest. Sohe thought that it was a possible burning

(21:49):
building or down to aircraft, andhe called the firemen. The fired local
fire department responded with fifteen men andthey all saw a glow and a thicket
about a mile away. It wasa hemlock thicket, and so it was
winter and the thicket was surrounded bya frozen swamp. They all hiked in

(22:10):
and when they arrived at the woodedarea where the amber glow initially appeared to
be, the glow then looked tobe further away, at about the same
distance that they just covered. Sothey combed the entire area until dawn,
when the glow was no longer visible, they called in helicopters, but there
nothing was found. There were notraces in the snow, no brooken branches,
twigs, or bushes, and itwas witnessed by no less than sixteen

(22:34):
first responders. So very cool.So look for more information about the MARS
Archives of historical Cases at the upcomingMutual Upcoming move On Symposium. So and
that's awesome, it's really cool.So okay, let's go ahead. Yeah,
that was an orange glowing light rightan amber is how they discambered.

(22:57):
But it was very large, likea big dome. It sounds like it
was there for a long time too, for hours, hours, and they
could not find the source. Thatis something else. Wow. Cool,
Thank you for sharing that. ThanksKatie. All Right, I'm so excited
about this case. Now, thisis an ongoing case. It's not a

(23:18):
closed case yet and it's from righthere in a good old Colorado. But
it's case number one three two fivezero seven. It occurred July fifteenth of
this year at three forty seven MountainStandard time in Denver, Colorado. The
witness states that they saw a dark, oblong looking object flying in an unusual
manner, so of course they startedrecording and you can clearly see odd movements.

(23:42):
Also, at about a minute andfifty one seconds in there's the same
looking object that goes straight up fromthe ground. I tell you, one
of the most apparent ways to seeif it's a UFO was framed by frame
and to look for crazy stuff lyingaround it. I hope the people of
the world get a chance to seethe real universe and it's an open case
what's cool, And I did.I went frame by frame. I've looked

(24:03):
at this. I looked at thisfor over an hour today, and it
has unusual movements. It literally goesalong, it disappears, comes, disappears,
and then it comes down and shootsoff. I mean, the more
I looked at this, the morecompelling it was. So I will will
show the original one first and thenI have a slowed down version and then
a couple of still shots. SoChanel, if you'd like to run that

(24:25):
first video the ability to circle so, and I was gonna cut it shorter,

(26:23):
and it's so compelling because it's movingalong. So you have there's one
point where it literally was a ninetydegree turn. It goes whoop and then
whoop really fast, and then itdoes this erratic movement, moves across and
then it almost like flips and changes, almost like a Doppelganger kind of thing,
comes down here and then shoots straightup. So I took that very

(26:45):
end of the video where it ismoving shoots and shoots straight up. So
if we can run that slowed downversion, I think you'll see it better.
Kind of look right in the middleof your screen there flow down quite

(28:17):
a bit. But that thing justzoom shut off. So what do you
think, Shane. Yeah, it'salways about the motion, isn't it.
You know, an object, youcan look at an object. It can
be confusing to see. I've seenlike balloons, like those Milar balloons.
They tumble, they reflect light,they look like they're emitting light. That's

(28:38):
just reflection. I mean, youjust see a lot of weird odd things.
But the thing you can't deny ismotion. Right, So most things
we know that are in the skygoing is pretty much a straight line or
swooping arcs that kind of thing.Or they can go up if it's a
balloon. But to double back onitself and to change speed rapidly and go

(28:59):
and those directions, that's clearly somethinganomalous. Yeah, and you could see
birds and I was going to takea screenshot. You could see birds kind
of shooting, and there's one whereyou can really see the wing movement in
the video frame by frame. Thisobject and channel put up those screenshots this
appears to be a solid object,was with. I mean, in certain

(29:22):
frames it almost look cube shaped,but the way it just switches directions,
moves around, and then just almostlike it jumps from here to there and
then shoots straight up. The moreI looked at them more, I'm like,
whoa, this is truly anomalous.What do you think, Tara,
Oh, I think it was cool. It was difficult for me to keep
track of it in the video,and I was really trying, so I

(29:45):
lost sight of it a couple oftimes. But I thought the person who
taped it did a good job keepingthe tree there and so we could have
some perspective and that really helps sosee the motion. It helped that,
right. That's an excellent point.Boy, if you witness something out there
for our listeners, and if you'retrying to capture some if you can get

(30:06):
the corner of a house or abuilding or a tree or anything in the
frame, it helps tremendously with analyzingthe video as compared to just a clear
blue sky. Great point. Well, thank you guys for letting me share
that case. I thought it wasa terrific case. I think it's time
to bring in our guest, whatdo you think? All right, then
it let's let me read. Letme read Mike bio really quickly here all

(30:29):
right. Mike clellan twenty fifteen bookThe Messengers was met with high praise.
In it, he explores the mysteriousconnection between owls, synchronicities, and UFO
abduction. It was his first handexperiences with these elusive events that have been
the foundation for his research. Thisbook is also a personal memoir and a

(30:52):
journey of self discovery. His newbook is entitled The Unseen, a novel.
Mike is also considered an expert theskills of ultra light backpacking and is
the author and illustrator of a seriesof instructional books on advanced outdoor techniques.
His website, Mike clellan dot comis a comprehensive resource of his research and

(31:15):
create creative output, and a greatplace to share your owl story and experiences
right there on his website. We'lltalk about that here in a little bit.
After twenty five years of living inthe Rockies, he now lives in
the Pacific Northwest. Welcome to theshow, Mike. Great to have you
back. Thanks, it's great tobe back. It's great to try to

(31:37):
keep my microphone a little bit.Well, it might be in the picture
a little bit there there you go, oh wait here and see you great,
And you can see an owl rightover my there he is, so
yeah, yeah, yeah, that'sdefinitely an owl. Uh. So I
would like you know, you're goingto be a feature speaker at this year's
move On symposium and the name forthe symposium is friend or Foe? So

(32:02):
what is your take on that.I'd like to kind of start you out
on that kind of theme, friendor foe through your research and experiences,
well through my direct experiences, whichwould certainly put me in the camp of
abductee depending on who how you frameit. I don't like the term,
but it's the one we're stuck withand I use it all the time.

(32:27):
But uh, and then and thenwithin the research, now that just to
be clear, like the research I'mdoing, right, So, there's this
continuum of UFO stuff and it justgoes. It's just huge, right.
So on one end, you know, you've got like everything is in this
big mix of soup. I meanthe tic tech and government conspiracies and and
and psychics and sedona and people makingoh let's say paranoid claims and it overlaps

(32:57):
into pop culture. But I'm notI'm not focused on that. I'm focused
on just people who have the UFOand OWL accounts that are side by side.
So you know, this little likethe small narrow sliver of this great,
big subject. So I'm not andI know it that I'm not looking
at the big picture. So giventhat my data pool is going to be
different than someone else's data pool,and what I can say is, so

(33:22):
I'm blending, like I'm I'm I'msure I'm going to make some hardcore researchers
crazy by saying this, Like I'mblending the OWL thing and the UFO thing.
Like I'm kind of at the pointnow where they where they're just they're
interlocked or I can't see one withoutseeing the other. So so in a
way, I'm looking at the wayI frame this is the owls are an

(33:45):
ancient mystery and the UFO is amodern mystery, and in my mind they
are essentially the same mystery repackaged forour present day. That's that's maybe a
miss stake to make that kind ofbold claim, but that's how it feels
to me much of the time.What I can say is friend or foe.

(34:08):
I have some really scary stories inmy files, as anyone does who
does this work. The fact thatthey're scary doesn't necessarily make them bad.
And I have certainly talked to plentyof people who have had bad experiences,
like especially women. Women will oftentalk of like missing pregnancies. I've heard

(34:34):
that many times talking with women.So there's like a frightening aspect to this
lore. That said, the overallpicture I'm getting like I'm factoring that in.
I'm not ignoring that, but itseems like to the people who are
having that experience, wow, that'sreal. Like I can't, I can't,

(34:55):
I can't. Let's say that someone'shaving I can't want to blame the
victim, you know what I mean. I don't want to blame and make
a false accusation or how to saythat that's that's not the right I said.
People have had the direct experience.I don't want to take anything away
from their experience. But what I'mseeing is that collectively that that the UFO

(35:22):
history presents very difficult challenge. Rightpeople who someone who sees a UFO in
the night sky are instantly aware thatwoe. Like everything I've been taught in
school, they didn't teach me thispart, Like this is something totally different,
Like I'm I've been told this isnot real. I guess in the
last few years, it's kind ofwe've been told it's real. But but

(35:44):
up until then, we've all beentold it's not real. So people are
changed, and that's a challenge toget confronted with that kind of like that
aaradigm shift. So I would saythat cautiously, friend or foe, that's
difficult, right, So but Iwould say that we are being presented with
a challenge, a difficult challenge,and we are also collectively. The people

(36:07):
I talk with seem to be havinglike the interactions in their lives. Not
all of them, certainly, butmany of them have been I find that
they're more spiritual, they're more concernedabout the environment, they're more concerned about

(36:28):
their fellow man then they would havebeen. And oftentimes they'll say that,
they'll say, oh, you know, I was this one person after my
experience as I changed, and Ifeel like I have that experiences. I
was going along this one track aftermy experience, I just like a huge
left turn and I change. Sothere's a transformation in place for people who
have had these experiences, and that'sall I can judge on how are people

(36:50):
changing, And I am cautiously sayingthe pattern I'm seeing is people are changing
for the good. People are changingin ways that make them more are concerned
about healing. That's one aspect thatis showing up in my research. People
have healing abilities that they're doing thingslike reiky therapy or hands on healing with

(37:12):
people, or they're going into somesort of healing profession like a psychiatrist or
or a therapist. So very cautiouslyI'm saying it would fit into the friend
category, but at the same time, I don't want to deny the people
who are having the very difficult situations. That was a long answer to what
might have seemed like a simple question. Well, nothing with the UFOs is

(37:37):
very simple, it seems. ButMike, just give me a moment here
to fan boy out. Oh yes, I don't. I love your work,
Absolutely love it. I've got TheMessengers maybe a year or two ago
on audio book and I've listened toit over and over and over again.

(37:58):
Absolutely love it, fast and addand you know, I'm just thrilled to
have you here here today. Butand I do have I actually have a
question or two. But I alsohave to ask you. I'm from Spokane,
Washington. Where are you in thePacific Northwest? Now, I'm on
the Olympic Peninsula right near right acrossfrom Seattle. I can walk to the

(38:21):
to the park, which is Ican actually hear sea lions window. It's
pretty great. They're super cute.And so I can, I can?
I can? I can walk tothe saltwater right here. But that's that's
the streets of wonder fuga or theputure sound. I guess it's a future
sound. Excuse me. And andthen but I'm connecting. I'm on the

(38:42):
kid Set Peninsula, so I'm technicallyit's sort of connected to the to the
to the Olympic Peninsula. Yeah,like right now you can't see it,
but if maybe in my reflection ofmy glasses, can I do it?
I can? I do it?Like there's big, huge, big trees.
I can't live for my home computerand turn it around, but the
big giant tree are right up mywindow here. Yeah, probably no prettier
a city in the world than thanSeattle and that area. When it's a

(39:06):
nice sunny day and just just gorgeous. There. We've had a beautiful summer,
but there's three other seasons, andlike, oh, you start to
pine for those beautiful days of summerthe three quarters of the year. Yeah,
so yeah, wonderful. Well,here here's my question. I got
a bajilling of them, so I'lltry and contain myself. But regarding you

(39:30):
know, the messengers and the conceptof the owls, and and to me,
the owls are part of it.But the synchronicity is so fascinating and
all the cases that people also reportedto you the experience that they've had.
May I ask, are are youcontinuing to have such experiences related to the

(39:50):
owls or or or continued synchronicities.Even today, I'm flooded with synchronicities.
I'm flooded with synchronicities. And itcomes in the form of you know,
just it's connected to the research.Either it's connected to UFOs, or it's
connected to owls somehow, or peoplewho have had UFOL experiences or owl experiences.

(40:13):
So so wow, Yeah, thesynchronicity in as far as owls,
I see owls a lot. I'min a place with a lot of owls
and and I'm that's not too unusual, so I can't I can't put too
much weight there. But yeah,the synchronicities things. I went to a
to a conference. It was nota UFO conference, but they had me
as a speaker and it was,I guess more of a consciousness type conference.

(40:37):
It was an event sometimes called theTribe, the metaphysical Tribe. It's
a group of mostly women. ActuallyI was the only man there for there
was a three day conference. Untilthe third day, I was the only
guy there and lucky. Yeah,it was funny. I know, well
it was funny. It was funnybecause because there's like a oh, well
anyway, let me just get tothe so and then the limousine or the

(41:00):
for them is in the driver.We had a card. We had a
driver take us from take us upat the airport, and then on the
last day we got taken back tothe airport. There were three speakers in
house and then there were a fewspeakers that were via zoom, but the
two speakers two other speakers were CherylCosta and this woman Ingrid Hunkle laugh.

(41:20):
I think that's how her last nameis pronounced, and she had had three
near death experiences, and shall Costahad had a near death experience, and
they were talking in the car,and then the driver just kind of like
said, oh, you know,by the way, I just I don't
want to feel funny interrupting, butI had I died twice. It was

(41:40):
just like, really, okay,well let's hear it. So he told
the story. He didn't have anykind of he was very clear that he
did not have any of the mysticalaspects of it. But he did have
mystical events in his life involving itseemed more like ghost apparitions and things like
that in the homes that he hadlived in. So but while that was
religious, like you know, it'sit's a pretty small subsection of the population

(42:01):
that has had has crossed that lineand come back. So so that was
just one example that's fast, whichis that was on Sunday night. You
know, how about how about yourown personal synchronicities? Could you could you
give us an example so kind ofour our viewers and listeners can kind of
get a sense of what we're talkingabout, oh like recently or like within

(42:23):
the book or I mean any anyany Oh, yeah, So this is
the problem is sometimes I got tothink about this because I've got lots that
are long, and I can tella long one. Let me think.
So. Uh, there's a storythat involves a orange flash that I tell
a lot. It's that would happenwhen I was twelve years old. It
sounds walking home from a high schoolfootball game. I passed this house.

(42:45):
I was walking with a friend,and I put it and I and I
wrote this up as a diary entry, this story, and it was one
of the first things that showed upon my blog in two thousand and nine.
This one still still shocks me.It's so powerful. And I was
walking home from the game and summertimeand a Friday, excuse me, autumn

(43:07):
and a Friday night. I wastwelve years old, and it was very
calm night in the Midwest. Igrew up at just outside of Detroit,
this suburb called Southfield, Michigan,and the sky just kind of went click
click, it just nighttime, calm, nighttime sky click turned orange, click
turned back to the calm, nighttimesky. The whole sky, like the

(43:28):
whole entire sky in my memory,just was like like solid electric, rich
orange. And then it went rightback and we were both like, what
just happened? What just happened?So we talked about it. Was it
like an explosion? Was it lightning? Didn't and there's no sound, it
was totally silent. Was it likea We talked about like those transformers that
are on the on the telephone poles, did like one of them, you

(43:51):
know, blow up? We wouldhave heard it. And then I get
home and my friend had a fewmore blocks to go in the neighborhood,
so he just kept walking and Igot to my house and I went inside.
My parents were, you know,while you're out so late. I'm
like, I'm not out late.I told you i'd be at home at
nine thirty. I know, whenI left the football game, it's nine
thirty, and they said it's eleventhirty and so. And I was lived
very close to the football I meanthe high school football. You could almost

(44:13):
hear it from the driveway, soit was like not very far, and
so there was no that was atnineteen seventy four, the missing time didn't
exist as far as a vocabulary word. So I was I was. I
was actually upset because my parents weremad at me for something that I felt
I didn't do that was really itwas all I was like, but I'm

(44:34):
but I know I'm home in time, and they were you were mad at
me. And I couldn't deny thefact that the it was eleven thirty.
So so I had no answer forthat. Now, I wrote this up
as a diary entry and I wasgoing to put it on my blog.
This was very early on. Istarted my blog in two thousand and nine.
Yikes, it's fourteen years ago.So I I had it all prepared.

(44:58):
You know, there's a way youformat the document. And I was
going to put it on my blog. But and I even had a picture
of the house in the neighborhood andthere was a there was a there was
a girl from my elementary school namedCindy who lived in that house. And
I had a picture of her houseand an X on the sidewalk, like
put photoshop. I put an Xon the sidewalk, got a Google Maps
image or the street view image thatthey have, and had my fingertips over

(45:24):
the keyboard. And I said tomyself, like, I knew this story
implied UFO abduction. And I waslike, well, I'm not a no
way, not me. But atthe same time, it's an interesting story,
and I knew what it implied.I had my hands over the keyboard
and I just literally said out loud, I'm not brave. And in that
moment, I get a ping andit was an email, so I could

(45:45):
check my email, and it wasCindy, my friend from elementary school,
saying Cindy wants to be your friendon Facebook. I hadn't talked to her
in thirty eight years. Wow,I have goose bumps. That's cool.
So that's more interesting that to me, that stray is a lot more interesting
than the orange flash in the sky. Like the fact that I said I

(46:07):
am not brave and then and itwas like I was there was like this
thing. I was like, Iguess I gotta publish this thing. Now.
I guess I gotta post this online. I'm stuck now I can't.
I couldn't like to deny that kindof the power of that synchronicity would be
like I don't know, I wouldlike to laugh in the face of God
or something like that. I waslike, too, it's like, okay,
well I heard you. I gotthe message, like, oh,

(46:29):
most of the thing. So sothat's that that that I went through a
period where I had a lot ofpowerful synchronicities. Now there there, I'm
a little less you know what.I what I say, I am no
longer allowing myself to be astonished bythe synchronicities. Right. Astonishment means like,
oh, your adrenaline goes up andit gets me. But I'm allowing

(46:49):
myself to be in awe. There'ssomething else entirely, so I allow myself
to be. I do not allowmyself to be astonished, but I want.
I love that feeling of awe andthe power of these things. So
I have become since adopting that,I'm a much calmer person. That's awesome.
Yeah, so the synchronicities and owls. I was reading your book.

(47:14):
I'm not quite finished with it,but that's the second book. Yeah,
yeah, yes, it's really interestingcool. But one of the things in
it that I really thought was interestingis about maybe you could talk about how
it has been found that all livingthings, even insects, might be endowed
with consciousness and you know, possiblyhave that sense of self or I am,

(47:37):
and that that was really interesting tome, and the owls would have
that same and kind of on thatsame line, the consciousness going to AI
do. What are your thoughts aboutthe owls and consciousness or consciousness of these
living things and artificial intelligence. Well, let's start with the let's just narrow

(48:00):
down the owls because because that WhitleySteeper wrote the forward to that and it
a beautiful day for the Foreward.And you know, the original version of
the original title of that book,and I changed it at the last minute,
was going to be I think it'sit says owls UFOs and a Deeper
Reality. That's what the subtitle says. And the original sub subtitle was going

(48:20):
to be Accounts of owls UFOs andconsciousness, you know what you know?
And I took consciousness out. Andpart of the reason I took it out
was because there was a edgar Mitchell. I think he had just died right
around the time that book came out. He died in like twenty seventeen.
I think that book came out.Yeah, it might have been right around
that time. And so doctor edgarMitchell, one of the fellows who walked

(48:44):
on the Moon, who had puta lot of effort into consciousness research since
he came back from the moon,and he started Ions, which is Institute
for noetic sciences and outside of SanFrancisco, and and he in an interview
he said, well, there's alot of talk a consciousness, but you
know, as researchers, there's wereally have no good definition for what consciousness

(49:05):
is. I'm like, okay,well, there's no good definition forward consciousness
is. I can't really put itin the cover of my book. There's
no good for what a deeper realitymight be either. But I put that
that felt like what I was.That felt like a better way to frame
it. So that so our owlsdrawn to UFO events, They certainly seem

(49:28):
to be, so I have alot of stories. What's weird is the
owl shows up first most often,right. So if if the UFO was
like a giant dog whistle right,the UFO would show up, the owl
would sense it. Here it Theyhave amazing nighttime site, So they might
have some ability that we don't understandto see an approaching UFO or flying saucer,

(49:49):
or they might have they have incrediblyhighly attuned hearing. They might be
able to hear the craft in away that we can't understand. So somehow
they have the ability to to tapinto our reality in a in a rich
in a way that's rich that wecan't tap into. That's undoubtedly true.
They can see in the dark,they can hear a mouse from a half

(50:10):
a mile away, and then soso, so the implication is can they
into it? Can Is their consciousnesshighly developed? Is there are there senses
highly developed enough to hear or seea UFO in Wow, there's a lot

(50:32):
of evidence that says maybe, wow, you could you could pull on that
the right to make a pretty goodcase for it. And I so are
they just simply curious that that thatthat following that logic. But the problem
is that it's not just owls andUFOs like owls and I'll just give one

(50:53):
example. Owls and death. Soaround the time that someone dies, it
is very common to see for themost often a child. We'll see if
after a parent dies, a childwho could be an adult child, or
and often after a parent dies,they will have owls show up at their

(51:13):
house. Sometimes they come in thehouse, sometimes like an owl like they'll
leave it open, an owl flyin and a land on the kitchen counter
and the person at the house willgo, Mom, why I miss you,
thank you for thank you for visiting. They'll talk to the owl as
if it is their dead parent.This is very common. I have a

(51:35):
story of one guy. His fatherdied of a heart attack. He was
at the hospital, so he wasdealing with his father was dead. He
was there it as had happened.He was there in the ambulance when they
brought him there. And his fathernever survived at a heart attack. So
so he's leaving. He steps outwith the mechanical doors slide open. He
walks out into the night on thesidewalk and there's an owl on the grass

(51:59):
right next to the sidewalk, andhe says, Dad, I love you,
Thank you. You've been a greatfather. I'm honored to be your
son. This is common, Thisis common. So that that tells me
that there isn't whether the how didthe owl arrive at that moment, what

(52:21):
mechanism, what magical force compelled theowl to land in the lawn? Was
it the spirit of the father?While you hear the story enough, you're
you hear I'm basically hearing that samestory over and over and over again.
That people will talk to an owlas if it is there deceased parent,

(52:43):
most often apparent. I have someother examples but most often apparent. So,
what's happening, you know, thesame thing with it with the UFO
shows up? Why is the owlshowing up most often? Here's a good
example of a guy named Derek,one of the first people to contact me.
His story is so perfect I useit as an example. It's easy
to tell quick too. So he'scamping in the desert. He's looking up

(53:04):
at the nighttime sky with a friendand then they look at a tall cactus.
This is an Arizona tall cactus owlon top of the cactus, and
they say they both get this feelingof like this is gary. Something's up,
and the the the owl flies off, and then a triangle craft goes
right over them, totally silently,very low, and it hovers. And

(53:30):
Derek tried to explain how odd themotion of the what you were talking about
before that motion? Said that themotion was so odd it did not match
anything did match it. Helicopter didmatch plane. So and then so,
so that's a very typical story.Owl showing up after the event is not
that common. So it's so something'sbringing the owl there before the UFO arrives.

(53:55):
Interesting, Yeah, we have aboutthree minutes since our first break.
But I'm curious in states for owlsare not as common. Are you seeing
owls enter into these locations as wellduring UFO sightings, abductions, that kind
of thing. Well, owls read, owls are pretty common. Yeah,

(54:17):
so everywhere okay, oh yeah,yeah, except Antarctica, but but there's
not much. Yeah, so soowls are very common. If you've got
hawks, you've got owls. Ohinteresting something. Yeah, yeah, they're
common. You don't see them becausethey're come out at night, but yeah,
they're all over. You're in Colorado, they're everywhere. Yeah, they're
very common, and so there that'syou simply don't see them because they're there.

(54:38):
They come out at night, sothey're they're everywhere. But I'm also
within my research I'm taking you know, like if someone sees an owl t
shirt or an owl lunch box orsomething like that, Like or if someone
takes mushrooms and has a psychedelic experienceand then has a visionary experience it's of

(55:00):
an owl. That is obviously apsychedelic experience of an owl, but it
but if that experience proves to bepowerful in their life, right, life
changing experience. I had a womanwho was an apprentice shaman, and she
took mushrooms and she had this visionaryexperience where basically a giant owl came and

(55:21):
adopted her in to the v ofShaans. It said, you are no
longer a woman who longs. Youare now woman who knows really powerful,
beautiful story. It's it's the author, the guy who's read the story.
It's in the messengers. The author, excuse me, the audiobook reader of
Michael Hacker did a beautiful job ofreading that account. So there's no UFO

(55:44):
in that story. It's it's asymbolic event, like a dream. I
get a little flak from people.He listens, he listens to people taking
drugs, and I go, oh, yeah, I do. But but
it's a but it's a it's aninitiatory event. She did it in a
ritualistic setting. So yeah, I'mlooking for those, for those for those
powerful, spiritual, symbolic experiences.And maybe it's a flaw on me,

(56:07):
but that's how I'm framing the totalityof life and the totality of the UFO
thing is in these grand, thesegrand ways. So so your question was,
if there's no owls, do Ihow do I interpret it. Well,
there's visionary owls, there's owl lunch. I get funny stories where you
know someone's oh, like they'll hearan owl on TV. Right, right,

(56:31):
it's just the right moment that'll hearan owls. That's so true.
I mean, I guess we dosee visions of owls in many different ways.
And when we come back on theother side of the break, I
would kind of like to touch basea little bit of the history of the
owl in our in our indigenous culturesand our past. And and also,

(56:54):
if you believe too, something tothink about during break if et actually cloaks
as an owl. So these aresome topics we'll talk about on the other
side of the break. You willsee in a few minutes. Hey,

(57:22):
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(57:50):
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(01:00:30):
com. Right we are back.I hope you guys had a good quick

(01:00:54):
break there. This is compelling,this information with Mike and the owl so,
I mean the folklore of owls inindigenous cultures. This goes back a
long time, doesn't it. Mike, Yes, yeah, so right in
my opinion, right to the beginningof time. I mean there's images unscratched
into caves and cave paintings of owlsthat go back to like the dawn of

(01:01:16):
man. So thirty thousand years agowe were creating artwork with owls. And
in my sense, so here justa little the little the mythology and the
folklore of owls. So the owlcan fly into the night and ancient man

(01:01:36):
to that must have been magical toancient man. Right, the owl can
fly through the forest in what wewould call complete darkness, right, and
that became a metaphor for flying tothe land of the dead, for flying
to the land of the ancestors,for flying to that other realm, that
deeper reality, and then coming backwith a message would be the next step.

(01:02:00):
So the owl would then return witha message. That's that's what was
happening when I wrote the book,was that people would just they would say,
oh, I saw this beautiful owlon a fence, and then then
they'll like this sort of mystical stuffwould invade their story and you know,
like either like stories people outright telepathyfrom owls and things. So and then

(01:02:22):
they would say like, oh,then the messenger, you know, flew
off, and they would just organicallystart call they would just call it the
messenger. Now that's how I gotthe title of the book. And so
so yes, ancient man, wouldthe owl flying in the forest a metaphor
for flying to that other realm.It would return with a message. In
most cultures, well, that wouldbe the threat you would see in cultures

(01:02:46):
all over the world. There's obviouslydifferent cultures have different mythologies, but that
the owl would be delivering a messageis one of them. Now, eagles
also deliver messages. Eagles don't flyat night, Eagles fly in the daylight.
That that's that's Zeus on the mountaintopand mythologies. He has an eagle
as a symbol and that's you know, masculine and daylight and telling you to

(01:03:07):
be strong or telling you to watchyour ego. Those are the myths that
come from from the eagle and thedaylight. The owl flies at night.
The owl is the night, isnot that it's the dream time, it's
the unconscious time. So the owlwould deliver a myth and a message that
would be internal change your spirituality,change, you know, look deeper within.

(01:03:31):
So those are the messages that comewith the owl and in the mythology.
Now that we also the wise owl. Right, so when a little
kid graduates from kindergarten, they puta little thumbtack of an owl with a
graduation camp on the bulb board.And that's that comes from Athena, the

(01:03:52):
Greek goddess of wisdom. Owls areassociated with wisdom because of an ancient mythology
that's two thousand, five hundred yearsold. Right now, present day Harry
Potter has an owl that delivers themail. It's a messenger. It's perfect.
The owl delivers the mail. It'sperfect. It is the ancient archetype,

(01:04:15):
it is the ancient task. It'sthe ancient role of the owl happening
right now in the single most popularseries of books ever in the history of
publication. Right now in our society, our let's say, our pop culture,
our pop culture mythology, Harry Potteris features an owl delivering the mail.

(01:04:35):
It's right here with us. Theancient mythology is still alive present day.
So I'm not sure. I'm notgonna got what was your question and
example? That was perfect? No, you explained it. That's actually a
great segue into my next question.And I just find this very fascinating.

(01:04:56):
One of the fascinating points of theMessengers, And my question is how did
how did the issue or topic ofarchetypes come to as part of this book
and of this experience. And youknow, it really struck me because I'd
never really heard it in anything I'veever researched, research store studied about UFOs

(01:05:18):
and to tap archetypes you know,discuss so much in your book. I
I just thought it was terrific.Could you kind of explain what that is
and for people and the how yougot there? So, so an archetype
is one of those words. It'sreally funny. I ask people all the
time, like what do you whatis swit'ster definition of an archetype. And
I asked, like, you know, people with PhDs in in uh philosophy,

(01:05:45):
how would you define archetype? Andnobody has the same answer. Every
answer is that work? Like soit's like, okay, well, you
know, yes, nobody knows.I mean, it's a nice word,
but it's like it's got variations.And you know, Plato said one thing,
Carl Young said another thing, Andthe archetype in the dictionary means quintessential,
Like that's a synonym for archetype.You know. Oh it's the archetypal
cheeseburger, you know. Like sothat so there's no good definition for archetype

(01:06:11):
or for me, the definition wouldbe oh, I wish I could read
this slide. I don't have thebook in front of me. But as
I was doing my research, therewas a there's a woman who wrote a
book called, I think it calledAnimal Spirits Talk. Her name is Jacqueline
Smith, not the one that wasin Charlie's Angels. Her name is Jacqueline
Smith. She's a researcher and experiencerand she is an animal communicator. So

(01:06:39):
she in her book she talks toall these animals and she gets the sort
of spirit lessons from the animals,and and and the owl chapter was so
heavy. The owl chapter was likeso rich with with my drama almost you
know, and I almost couldn't understandit to be like it's like it read

(01:06:59):
like some sort of exotic poetry.But she was talking to the owl,
and I wanted to use that inthe book. So I wanted to talk
to her, so I called herup on the phone. I'm so glad
I recorded this call. I'm goingto do it for memory. I'll do
pretty well. So we're talking andI said, like, you know,
like you know, like if yousee that owl again, you ask,
go what's up? You ask forme, what's up with the owls?

(01:07:20):
And she talks a little bit,and all of a sudden she starts talking
really haltingly and really like slow,and I can just tell there's her cadence
is all difference. And she said, when we see an owl, we
see a symbol. We think interms of symbols, the owl is a
symbol, the owl tap We cantap into the owl through our genetic memory

(01:07:45):
bank. The owl is an archetypalimage that we all understand. I'm doing
a poor job. It's it's inboth the first book and in the Stories
book. I refer back to thisa lot, and it is. It
was the perfect definition of an archetype. And she basically said, the owl
is an archetype. And when shesaid that, like I was, when

(01:08:06):
I was in the middle of thisresearch, like it was a mess.
My poor brain was just trying tolike all these disparate things were it all
like I couldn't make sense of anything. And when she said the owl is
an archetype, basically the the ourmind has a lock on it. The
owl is a key, I wasjust like everything went click. All the

(01:08:31):
puzzle pieces just click, and itmade a beautiful the puzzle. I could
see the puzzle. I'm using alittle bit of a metaphor there, but
but I could the puzzle pieces clickedtogether. I could. It was so
helpful for me to wrap my mindaround. It doesn't make it true,
but it does. It did forme make the research like it really got
to a point where I could wrapmy mind around it. And I asked

(01:08:53):
her, like, Jacqueline, wereyou channeling just then? And she said,
yeah, I was channeling. Iwas channeling the spirit of the owl
that moment to give you that information. You know, wow, that's how
So you asked how I got thatinformation? It was like from a UFO
abductee channeling the cosmic spirit of anowl. It wasn't like an owl in
the forest. She was channeling theoverwhelming, overarching spirit essence of all owl

(01:09:20):
energy. So so, I mean, that's a tough one to like.
It's funny, I'm just about togo to I'm just gonna do a little
like I'm like, I know fullwell that I go down these avenues and
let myself follow these threads that let'ssay, a nuts and Bolts researcher,
would you need to follow. Iknow I'm doing that, and I and
I and let me tell you thenuts and bolts. Researchers come after,

(01:09:42):
come up after me and when Ido my talks, and you thing where
you were like that like talking toa channeling lady that the UFO abductee.
So I know that full well goinginto this well, Mike, that's that's
part of some of the stories inyour book. It's about maybe you could
talk a little bit about people whohave experienced with owls and received downloads or
they experienced a download of information whenthey're That's one of the strange things that

(01:10:10):
happens there where there was one inyour book. I believe she got some
downloads and then she swallowed the threefeathers of the owl to take it on
and into herself. And I'm wonderingif there's anything you can talk about that.
Sure. That's Denise. She's awonderful I talked with her on the
phone for a long time and readher. I got her books. She's

(01:10:30):
put out a bunch of books.She had she had a UFO close up
UFO sighting she was She also hada near death experience when she was sixteen.
Wow, that's is interesting. Shewas shot in the abdomen, shot
at close range in her abdomen byjust someone. She was riding. She
was on a motorcycle and she wasand someone just passed her and shot her

(01:10:57):
from the window of their car andand she died and then had a near
death experience and came back. Thiswould have been in nineteen sixty seven.
She was sixteen years old. Laterand she was told by the doctors,
you will never have a child.Later, she had a close up UFO
sitting with her husband and that nightafter that's when the she that's when that

(01:11:19):
she had conceived a child that night. So she has one child. And
I've talked to her child to sayso the mother and daughter now write books
together, cookbooks and things like thattogether. And so Denise Lynn also I
asked her, are you a shaman? And she said, no, I'm
not a shaman. Don't call mea shaman. And like when people say

(01:11:43):
that, I always go like okay, like like like, So shaman is
another one of those words. Heasked ten people what a shaman is.
Everyone's got a different definition. So, but she is definitely doing shaman like
work. She does raiky therapy.She speaks all over the world. She
speaks about consciousness and you know,like the upliftment of humanity. So she

(01:12:05):
wanted to get her spirit name.And she has Native American lineage and her
family. So she went into theforest to get her spirit name. And
she sat down and meditated. Now, remember I said death, owls and
death sort of go hand in hand. And so the owls, UFOs,
death, meditation. You know,I'm connecting these things. And then shamanic

(01:12:30):
initiation are all seemed to be connectedto and psychedelic mushrooms. I would actually
I talked about that earlier too.These would be the points that I would
call highly charged human experiences that areall connected to the owls, Like so
Ufo was highly charged human experience,like people can have highly charged experiences under

(01:12:51):
meditation. She went into the forestto meditate, and she sat quietly with
her eyes closed and meditated, Well, it is my spirit animal name?
What is my spirit name? Andshe and this soul forest got quiet.
All the cricket noises stopped, allthe bug noises stopped, the birds stopped
chirping. That she couldn't hear thewind. There was no wind in the

(01:13:13):
leaves, and she opened her eyes, and right in front of her,
close enough to touch, is agreat horned owl staring at her, right
in the eyes. Like she opensher eyes and there's a great horned owl
staring right at her. And thenthe owl flies off, and there are
three feathers left on the branch,three white feathers. She was funny when

(01:13:34):
she told us she and she hearda voice in her head that said,
put the feathers in your medicine bag. And she had a little medicine bag
that that a tribal member had madefor her. Was a beautiful little pouch,
deer skin pouch that she had,and she said, it's at home.

(01:13:54):
She's basically my medicine bags at home. I don't have my medicine bag.
And the voice said, you areyour own medicine bag. Put the
feathers in your medicine bag. Soshe took the flowers, the feathers and
ate them. And it was veryfunny. She said, Well, I
told my husband. He was somad at me. He's like, so

(01:14:15):
she ate the owl feathers and thatthat, and so I can't remember exactly
now I puts in the book,but I think her spirit name became owl
feather or seem me white feather,right, I might have I'm not sure
if I have that right, buth but that that's holy communion. It
is communion exactly. That's like eating. So there's like ancient rituals of eating

(01:14:42):
the God. Right, So that'sthat was that's an ancient tradition that has
been not co opted but well understoodin the Christian traditions. You know,
you would eat the blood of Christand drink the blood of Christ as a
ritual. And she performed that ritual. She ate the spirit of the owl.
She took it into her body andthus taking on that spirit energy of

(01:15:04):
the owl in symbolic form. Soso let me see if I can reach
this here, hold on, SoI have a question. So this has
been sacred to me for years andyears and years when I started my journey,
and like you said, Mike,for me, what started when I

(01:15:28):
was a young girl in the lateseventies on the ranch was a very scary
event. And much later in mylife I became spiritual and started meditation and
a lot of similar journeys that somany of us go down. And when
every time I would meditate, somean animal would show up in my sacred

(01:15:49):
space and my deep meditations, andit's a snow owl. And my question
for you, so this little guyis very sacred and dear to me.
But my question for you is dodifferent types of owls a snow owl,
barn owl, and so forth.Do they mean different things? Yes,

(01:16:12):
but they mean things in different traditions. So like a Native American lore,
you know, one owl, theymean one thing to one tribe. Ride
your pony over the hill and goto the next valley, and there's another
tribe over there. They may havea similar but slightly different tradition what I
have. So in some Native Americantraditions, and there's obviously there's traditions all

(01:16:34):
over the world, in South America, in Siberia, and in Africa and
all over Asia. So there's traditionsthat are associated with the owl. So,
but just speaking from the Native Americanlore, some some would see the
brown owl as practical. These arethis is a if you see a brown
owl in the wood at a highlyin the woods, at a highly charged

(01:16:54):
moment, you would you would begiven the task would be to look at
your practical hum and day to dayissues, your ego your consciousness or excuse
me, your ego, your yourdaily life issues, you know, being
a better father to your child,or those kinds of things. And then
if you see a white owl,that would be something altogether different, that

(01:17:15):
would be a spiritual sign to lookwithin, to be more more thoughtful with
your spiritual aspects. That that doesnot transfer all over to other cultures.
So, but that was I domake a note of that, and I
think the first book, so waita minute, now I want to hear.
So, what's your spirit animal?You feel your spirit animal is a
snowy owl. Snow owl yep,snow yep. Every time I meditate,

(01:17:39):
this guy shows up, and Ifeel meditate within your consciousness or like shows
up at a window like no,in my consciousness and my consciousness, I
always go to this kind of sacredspace like so many of us do,
this protective space. And I alsofeel like this is a protector or a
guide comes to me that way.And I also have found with UFO,

(01:18:04):
both UFO contact abduction, even paranormal, a lot of a lot of times
people have near death experiences and ortrauma and their past childhood. I've made
this connection. I wonder if you'vemade those connection as well. And for
me this felt feels very much likea protector and a guy. Oh yeah,

(01:18:29):
oh yeah, yeah yeah. Sowhat you're saying so, so obviously
you're you're seeing it in your mind'seye, you're seeing it internally. So
it's it's symbolic, right. Adream is symbolic, or a dream is
a dream exists only in your mind, but it has symbolic power. Right.
So you're you're you, You're weare capable of like as people,

(01:18:54):
we as This is right, goingright back to what Jacqueline Smith said,
You know, we see in symbols, We think in symbols. So the
owl is a symbol, the UFOis a symbol. Yeah, so that
everyone in the world knows what aflying saucer is, even if they haven't
seen one, they know they knowthis a little bit to a degree.
They have a they can tap intothe backstory of what a flying saucer might
be, and they can tap intothe spiritual energy of an owl. Yeah,

(01:19:17):
so I want to ask you questionsyou asked about the near death experience
and stuff like that. Oh yeah, that's all over this stuff. So
you know what I've here's the issue. This is stuff I like. The
owl and the near death experience seemperfect, right. I have no stories
of people who have had a neardeath experience and then have OWL experiences.

(01:19:40):
They might be out there, theysimply have found me. But here's what
I do have. People who havehad UFO experiences and OWL experiences. They
come to me, excuse me,UFO experiences and the near death experience.
They come to me. And I'mgonna be really cautious saying this because I
don't have a huge data pool,but I got a pretty big data pool,
and those people are psychic. Ifyou've had a near death experience and

(01:20:03):
then let's say UFO abduction, youare a powerful psychic with near one in
my in my in my in myfiles. Wow, that doesn't make it
universal, but in my files it'suniversal. So yeah, it's centristing.
Yeah, let me let me justso you all are. I'm gonna tell

(01:20:27):
any other I want to answer tothis one. The first the fellow I
talked about Derek who saw the owlin the cactus and then the triangle thing,
he kind of like off handedly said, yeah, well after that,
a couple days later, I sawanother UFO and you know this stuff early,
and this was a good point inmy life in it. I had
a spiritual awakening not long after that, and I kind of like, really
you did. Okay, that's prettyinteresting, and wow have I heard that
over and over and over again.People seeing my files are owls UFOs and

(01:20:51):
then people tend to have a spiritualawakening. It's it's not to say it's
apelet's be equals C is a littletoo simplistic. But why is it a
pattern? It's a very clear patternin my work. I actually have a
big slide in my presentation and Italk about it and I say spiritual awakening.
I say, hey, the peoplehave owls in UFO contact and they

(01:21:11):
tended to also have spiritual awakening.And I put that big thing, that
big slide there. And I wasat this UFO conference in Michigan, and
I was really like stressing on thatone slide. I'm like, do I
really do I have that? Imean, it's I have it a few
times. How many times do Ireally have it? Is it correct to
put it in there if it's notlike a really defined pattern. And this
guy comes up to me and said, Mike, let's just really I'm looking

(01:21:32):
forward to your talk. You know, hey, just I had a UFO
and OWL experience. You know,it's really funny. It led to a
spiritual awakening and I was like,Okay, it's going in. It's going
in the talk. That's synchronicity.That's a good synchronistic story that happened just
ab a year ago. That's awesome. Yeah, so, Mike, I

(01:21:53):
know, another question I have isWhitley Streamer is another end vigil has had,
you know, such an impact onyou know the issue of UFOs and
consciousness and all of those things withthis personal experience and communion and then you
know the work that he's done since, and I know that you've collaborated with

(01:22:15):
him a bit. Would you mindtelling us a little bit about that?
Well? What he wrote the forwardto my second book. And then I
also did a podcast on his showfor a few like two and three years.
I think for three years I dida podcast on a show. And
it was while I was writing thenovel and I couldn't do both. I
was making myself crazy. So Iwas like, I was like trying to
work full time in the novel,and then I was trying to I mean,

(01:22:38):
you know what it means did yourshow once a week? Yes,
Yes, a lot of works andthat was just one person. And I
wanted to read the book. Ifsomeone had a book, I would read
it and like, wow, wasit a lot of work? So I
just couldn't get anything done like soI had. It was Whitley Strieber was
a huge hero of mine in thiswork, and so I felt bad that

(01:22:59):
I had to say, like,oh, I can't do it. I
just can't do what. I can'tkeep up. So I felt terrible that
I had to back out. Buthe's been at the forefront of this,
so I haven't. I haven't reallycollaborated with him, but I did do
a show on on his network oron his website and it was called The
Unseen. It's funny that the bookhas titled The Unseen. And when I

(01:23:19):
said yes to doing his book,excuse me, doing his his podcast.
He called me up and said,Mike, would you do a podcast for
my show? I'm like sure,And I had to think of a name.
And I had been working on thisbook and I was like, I'm
never going to finish that book.Fish that book. That's a great title.
It's a good title. I'll justuse the title because I'm never going
to fish that book. Like acouple of months ago, I finished the
book and it's on sale. Soif you wonder, like, hey,

(01:23:41):
he had didn't have a podcast calledThe Unseen, that's the reason why.
So but I went through and andwent through all because you can get him
on Kindle. They're like cheap.He did a thing where he's selling all
his nonfiction books, like he didBreakthrough. He did a book called The
Secret School. He did a calledTransformations, I think, but he So

(01:24:04):
I got all his nonfiction books onKindle and you can search them, and
I searched the word owl and Ifound all these relevant chapters on owls.
And so I just took in acut paste and I made like a little
document with all his written work onowls. And it's not very long.
It's like probably it would be aboutfour typewritten pages where he and it's he

(01:24:25):
typical of him. He's a verybeautiful writer. And he, in essence
in four pages said what it tookme four hundred pages in the messengers to
say, So he could do itin one percent of the paper that I
and and but it was a verylike he he was arguing that the owl

(01:24:50):
is symbolic and it is speaking tous in in a language. It's a
it's a like a it's an eitherancient language or a new language. It's
a language that we cannot interpret consciously, like we have to interpret more subtly.
So in essence, he's saying thesame thing I am. I was.
I was saying it's an archetype,which that's a nice way to say

(01:25:12):
it. And then I would say, instead of a language, I was
saying that the owls is showing upsymbolically, So it's a symbolic language that
we can interpret as as an archetype. Where So it was really like really
reading for me when I did that, because it really told me that,
like, I'm not alone in this. So so let me also say that

(01:25:32):
I did not discover the owl andufoln. That owls and UFOs are connected.
It's peppered all throughout the literature.Might be in a book here,
it might be two sentences, anotherbook here, it might be a paragraph,
but it's out. It was outthere before, you know. So
I just I just I stood onthe shoulders of people who had come before
me. Hey, Mike, I'vehad my own owls. There's this one

(01:25:57):
that's appeared several times in my backyardand it's been a good day, is
it he's And there's an I thinkone more shot of him too. Oh
beautiful, just beautiful. And soshould we all be on the lookout when
we spot an owl? And Iguess kind of I'm wondering it's kind of

(01:26:17):
a second part of this. Thepeople who have had maybe abductions or you
know, after seeing an owl orsomething related to it, are do they
define themselves differently if they're in acontact or an abductee if the owl is
involved. I'm just wondering if itgives them some peace for that interesting a

(01:26:41):
queen, Wow, that would bea tough one to answer. So let
me tell a story. This womancontacts me and she she there's an old
friend and they used to date,so they're this They dated in college.
It was like many many years earlier. This fellow needed he was moved to
the town. She was living inthe town, so he stayed with her

(01:27:01):
for a while and they would sitout in the backyard. And he was
very logical and very scientific, andand she was she had had direct UFO
contact experiences and he was like,wasn't buying it. He was like,
don't buy it, like I like, I'm doubtful like he was, which
is it's understandable to be skeptical.So it sounds like he was good about

(01:27:23):
it. But she they were inthe backyard and they had like they started
going at it. They got gotkind of heated, and he said,
you know, like I need thedirect experience to believe this, and and
she basically said, you know,I'm trying to do this. Remember the

(01:27:44):
quote she said something the effective likethe UFO is the direct experience. And
at that moment, like it feltshe said, all the trees around us
erupted in a chorus of owls.Basically, it was like the owls were
applauding the debate, like she hadjust won the debate, right, so
she had hit the knockout punch andhit the owl. Is the experience the

(01:28:05):
experience, and the owls the owlscompletely because he didn't ever have the experience
she did. And she said thatwas that's my experience. The UFO is
the experience, and then the owlsjust like you know, you won.
So she felt like it was andhe was totally he got it. He
said like, oh wow, somethingbigger than me happened just right then,

(01:28:27):
just right now, and it wasso I love that story. I love
that story. And then she saidshe never saw the owls, which is
like one of these things was like, what really happened? The trees were
filled with owls, but you didn'tsee him. That's what came out.
So what really happened? It soundslike when you take a half a step
back, it's like that's almost toomystical. Right. Well, so your

(01:28:48):
question was should we be on thelookout? I am on the lookout.
And so the questions I asked isif sure there's owls all the time?
Right, So there's owls in theforest, and people see owls all the
time there you know, someone hasit ill nest in their backyard. They
can't constantly be like every time theysee now all they're like, it's they
they're wild animals. But what Isay is what was going on leading up
to the event. This is thequestion, sis what happened after the event?

(01:29:12):
Right? So leting up to theevent that the owls hooted in the
trees, they were fighting, theywere clashing. After the owls, she
made themselves known. She didn't seethem, but they made themselves known through
hooting loud hooting. She won theargument. She was like, so there's
like, that's a that's a veryplayful example, but that's a that's a
yeah, so that's very cool.I love that story. Interesting. Yeah.

(01:29:32):
So so Mike, could you maybeexplain what you mean by the maybe
people and do you consider yourself oneor not? Oh? Okay, So
maybe people as a term I usedbecause what was happening when I did the
first one. I don't use itthat much anymore, but it's all over
the first book, the maybe peoplewere you talk to these people and you

(01:29:54):
must know what I'm talking about,right. You talk to someone and they're
like, well, I saw thisUFO was really close up landed in the
yard, and like, wow,is it really incredible? And then they
might say things like oh, yeah, you know, I like had this
short bit of missing time, orthey might say like, oh, I
had this dream where I was floatedthrough the wall of my bedroom. Right.
So it's not like I've had similarexperiences in my life, and I've

(01:30:19):
had people tell me they looked meright in the eye and say you you
are an abductee, and this waslike when I was early on and I
didn't, no, don't, don't. It's not for you to tell me
what I am. And so Iwas. I'm very cautious to tell someone
else that they may have had contactboy, but I can so the maybe

(01:30:39):
people. And another thing I alsosay is like, Okay, give me
a budget of a million dollars,give me a staff of twenty, give
me three years to work in yourcase. At the end of that time,
I'll still I still there's no wayto know whether you're an abductee or
not. I might we might getsome information. I'm skeptical. Hypnosis is
a tool. I'm skeptical to believeit wholeheartedly. So so so the maybe

(01:31:04):
people are people that maybe have hadcontact experiences. And then another term I
talk about it in the book.I think in the second book where I
transpose maybe people with seeker, likethe people who are having these experiences are
I feel strongly that would be correctto say they are seekers. They're seeking
something, something right that that thatthat quality, and someone that would make

(01:31:28):
them a seeker. So the thethe UFO contact event is very elusive,
so it feels very difficult to like, it's not my job to call someone
an abductee. But I can't saythat you're a maybe person. You have
like and I'm and I am comfortablewith that. Now you said, do

(01:31:48):
think I'm I'm not a maybe person? Like I fully know that I've had
the contact experience, Like I've hadenough experiences at this point, and some
have been so heavy handed and andand let me tell you what, Like
I've spent the better part of betweentwo thousand and six and two thousand and
thirteen. What's that seven years?Yeah, seven years liked denying, denying,

(01:32:09):
denying. I had experiences that likesure fit the UFO contact experience,
I was not going there or Iwas my own works enemy and I was
like, nope, not me,not me. And that all fell apart
in twenty thirteen, which is aboutthe last twenty pages of the event,
the contact event that right about itat the end of the Messengers, about

(01:32:30):
the last twenty or thirty pages.Yeah, thank you for that so fast.
So we have a question here fromone of our listeners. It says
from Joe Fox, Mike, canI manifest the UFO experience? Great?
That would be maybe. Yeah.So I mean there's characters like Stephen Greer
who who claim that you can havea contact experience, And I've talked to

(01:32:54):
people who have been at those eventsand have had remarkably powerful experience. But
it's a very strange thing in myopinion, and I'm a little annoyed at
his antics. Let's say you signa nondisclosure agreement. They're expensive, you're
not allowed to talk about it afterwards. But yeah, so so like if
you want it, if you meditate, you could ask for one. And

(01:33:16):
if you did it with an openheart, and you did it with consistency,
like yeah, like like try it. Go to meditate every night for
a month in your backyard and seehow it goes. And asked to see
one. Yeah, And sometimes Iwas gonna say sometimes, you know,
you may not see the nuts andbolts craft that you are expecting in your

(01:33:38):
mind, but you might see justlike I often see, like you know
those old cameras that had the cubesfor the flash. It's almost like that,
and then you'll get it again ifyou ask. It's it's not it's
not a satellite because like you said, the timing of them are when you're
trying to communicate, and they're justlike little hellos. So I count that

(01:33:58):
as well. Have you heard ofthat? Mike? Oh yeah, oh
yeah, yeah you know yeah.So and then also be careful what you
asked for I might be yeah,so like you know, like you like
just be careful, like like Iknow a lot of people whose lives have
been flipped upside down with after seeingthese things. So yeah, so and
then but yeah, so uh here'swhat so what's it been happened? This

(01:34:23):
is what's really common for me.I did a podcast with a fellow named
Wan. He does a podcast calledone on one and it was a great
talk. It was a great talk. So he found me under totally weird
synchronistic things. He thought I wassomeone else and he just typed like anyway,
so like that's like I got back. I'm like, hey, it's
nice, he said hello, butI'm not that person. He's like,

(01:34:44):
who are you? Like this isnot well and like my owl books Like
yeah, it's like, how didI get a hold of you? I
don't know. You just texted me. So we started talking and saying I
want to have you on my podcaston me sure past So the night before
I was doing the show with him, he was in the backyard with his
kids. Excuse me, it's oneson and a son is young. I
think his son is like seven orsomething. So he's in the backyard and
he's with his wife and he's like, tomorrow, I'm going to talk to

(01:35:06):
the alga. Tomorrow is the dayof the interview. I'm gonna talk to
the algay. It's nighttime. He'slike, maybe we'll see an owl.
He was kind of like he's kindof had his like I'm looking around and
he'll see now. And at thatpoint his son goes dead. Look orange
orb floats. So that's very commonto you ask for one, you get
the other. WHOA, that's acool story. So what about Yeah,

(01:35:30):
what about the theory or you knowwe've heard I think it's Stan and John
the x X Navajo rangers talk aboutthe rabbit, right, that is kind
of a screen memory or screen ormaybe a c ets. Do we have
that with Owl's as well, whereyou will see an owl that perhaps the

(01:35:53):
ets are making the experience more comforting, kind of like along what would terror
was saying, But do you havereports of that? Were they the experiencer
believes that Owl is the extraterrestrial bythe hundreds yeah, so that would be
called yeah. Like it's like onceyou've heard of five hundred times, you
get it right, you know,So yeah, I'm literally by the hundreds.

(01:36:15):
So wow. So what's common isthis is so funny that the this
woman contacts me and she has astory. She and I interviewed her on
my podcast in back around twenty ten, twelve or so, and her pen
name is Lucretia Hart. It's awonderful interview. But she has an experience

(01:36:38):
where she was working at a girlscamp when she was nineteen years old.
She was a counselor at a girlscamp and this was in Oregon, and
she at that point she fully knewshe had been having contact experiences. She
had memories of like alien beings inher bedroom, but that always happened at
night. So it's full daylight andshe's in the back country and there's a

(01:37:01):
campsite with girls over here, andthis little trail that connects there's a campsite
over here, and it's just thoseshort little walk on a trail between the
two. But that was the twoflat spots where they could get all the
tent set up. So she's walkingbetween the two campsites and she's turns a
corner and there in the trail isa gray alien, full daylight, full
daylight. It's a big bald headshining in the sun, big black eyes,

(01:37:25):
and it looks at her and shelooks at it. And now all
of the communication that shows up inthe abduction lore, as far as I
can tell, is one telepathic.I've never talked to anyone who said that
aliens moved their lips and the noisewent in my ear. Doesn't work that
way. So all of a sudden, this thing's looking at her, and

(01:37:45):
she's looking at in this her totaltelepathic communication was like this thing was basically
like, oh crap, you're notsupposed to see me. And then she
hears it saying yes in the matrix, Yeah, is it like saying owl
owl owl owl? And then itturns into she watches a gray alien morph

(01:38:05):
into a no footbal owl. Itturns around and walks into the woods.
No way. So that story islike, that's something got messed up.
But with the common story that Ihear is, Oh, here do you
all know who Dolores Cannon was?Yeah, So Dolores Cannon, in her
book The Custodian writes this, andI've tried to reach out to her and

(01:38:28):
this is it was she had.She died shortly after I started working on
the the first Owl book. Shewas at the point in her clinical work
right she was she was a therapist, she was doing issues, she was
a hypnotherapist. She was helping peoplewith weight loss, she was helping people
with you know, quating, smokingand things like that. So she she

(01:38:55):
was this UFO stuff was showing up. People will tell these stories and then
it kind of spontaneously talk about theseUFO memories. And this was a surprise
to her, and she said,do I follow this? She was at
a point she met with the staffat her clinic and had the conversation like
I don't know what to do.I don't know whether to follow this.
Do I pull on this thread ordo I do I walk away from it.
So that night on the way home, she's driving home, she's got

(01:39:15):
a big truck. She's driving inArkansas, and then in the road is
an OWL. Got a big Americantruck pulls right up to the looking over
the hood of the car, like, let me tell you, they go
They're not that big. They don'tget the big the biggest owel in the
world isn't going to look over thehood of a truck, tiny truck.
It's still like it was a littleyou know, Minnie Cooper, it still

(01:39:35):
wouldn't be able to look over thehood. So so she she like,
the owl lifts up, it fliesdown the road, it stops again,
she pulls up to it. Theowl lifts up, flies down the road,
and then I'll stops and stands byher driveway and watches her pull into
the driveway. And then she tellsher son like, oh, I saw
great big owls on the side therun, and how big. It's so

(01:39:55):
four foot tall. I was like, Mom, they don't get that big.
And he's like, what do youmean? I just was like,
so hmm. What happened leading upto the event, It's like she was
like, I need to I needto. Am I going to follow this
UFO thing showing up in my myclinical work? It's just showing up spontaneously.
Do I pull on this thread?What happened? Afterwards? She obviously

(01:40:17):
wrote like ten important books on theUFO contact experience. This is that is
that is those are the questions Idon't ask. I've never called an airport
and asked if they had a UFOsting. I like attract anything on radar.
So, but I've asked everyone whathappened leading up? What changed in

(01:40:38):
your life? After? Cool question? Question that is awesome. So,
Mike, do you do you asfar as you know, do you your
family or friends or the people inyour lives do they also have experiences or
synchronicities? Certainly my friends do becauseall my friends now like I life over

(01:41:04):
all, my friends are like UFOresearchers at this point. Yeah, so
my friends are only do. Butmy family, as far as I can
tell, do not. My brothercame to a talk I gave in Michigan
that talk that at talk I wastalking about where the fellow came up to
me. So my brother, Igrew up in Michigan. My brother came
to a talk. He's like,pretty like I'm the odd ball in the

(01:41:24):
family by farm. Jim is not. Jim is very grounded, very like
not easily. He doesn't suffer foolseasily. So and and wow do I
when some of the talks, Imean, I talk about my direct experience,
and I talk about hypno successions thatI've been through and things like that,
So I like, I lay itall, and I lay it all

(01:41:45):
out there. There's a few thingsI keep private simply because they involve other
people, and those of the peoplehave asked me not don't share those stories,
so and I have to honor that. I'm fine with that. But
and I when you can you talka little bit of about your hypnosis experiences,
what that's like and what came throughfor you. Oh my, how
much time do we have? Wehave about fifteen minutes left, so I'll

(01:42:11):
try to make it quick. Idid a hypnosis session in twenty and eighteen
with with Yvonne Smith, who's speakingat the conference. Wonderful, wonderful.
So let me just say Yvonne Smithis a therapist. First, she's providing
therapeutic, helped her patients. Toher clients, she is she has a

(01:42:31):
UFO, so that's her priority.Helping people down lower on the list is
UFOL research. She's she's trying tobe therapy. She's offering therapeutical. She
started out, if I'm not mistakenas that she was helping people with PTSD.
So that was how she's got intothe using hypnosis to help people with
PTSD. Very very gentle, softspoken, caring woman. So I would

(01:43:00):
I had already. So here's thesynchronosy. I was going to be in
California in August of two thousand.In eighteen, as I call her up
or I email her, I say, Yvonne, we'd met at conferences before
and said hello and and and talked, and I did an interview with her
years ago on my other network ormy other podcast, which is called Hidden
Experience. And so I called herup and she says, Mike, what

(01:43:24):
a nice surprise. I just startedreading your book this morning. That's that's
like, that's like that would havefreaked me out at one point. Okay,
I'm on the right path. Let'sjust keep moving forward here. So
I said, I want to talkabout one night, which was the night
of March tenth, two thirteen.Yeah, March tenth, two thirteen,

(01:43:50):
And that was I was coming homefrom the International UFO Congress, which was
in Arizona, and I was livingIda at the time. So you have
to go through Utah, and Ilove driving through the twisty, turny roads
in the country roads of the desert. Oh, I love it so much.
So I camped out on the sideof the road late one night on
the way home from the UFO conference, and I'll try to make this quick.

(01:44:11):
I saw. I woke up inthe middle and I slipped out on
the side of the road, justslipped out under the star. It's cold,
beautiful. I have a big,thick sleeping bag and a big pillow.
And I looked up at this hilltopand I said, that looks just
like a landed flying saucer. Youknow, this thing was there, and
I went back to sleep, andI woke up again and there was a
coyote near my head and it waslike, why is this coyote howling so

(01:44:32):
close to my head? And Icouldn't see it. I was sat up
and looked around. I couldn't seethe thing. It felt like I felt
like I could have handed it adog biscuit, and there was nowhere to
be seen. So I went lightdown and I woke up again and there
was a there was a bright lightbehind the bush, and I know was
something happened that night, and Iknew it at the time. And I
went home and I tried to lookup find this big round building on the

(01:44:55):
top of this hill. I knewright where I camped. I do all
kinds of outdoor work. I'm veryskilled with maps, and I was like,
this is exactly where I was lying. This is the exactly the hill.
There should be a big round buildingon top of that hill. There
was nothing. I went back tothe site a year later. A lot
happened in that year, but like, eventually I went back, there's no
building there. This would have beenhuge. It was like two point six
miles away, which in the desertnight air, yeah, would have been

(01:45:17):
Oh, just someone have a commenting. We need to ask questions. Oh
no, no, I was youfinished? And then I'll comment. Okay,
so just butt in because I cangive. I can just go on
out. I can. I'm makingme even more talkative, So sold on

(01:45:41):
back, Okay, okay, yeahI think for two seconds. Yeah.
So I have no fear associated withthat night. Now let me tell you.
After that night, a bunch ofother things happened, and it was
like all that stuff earlier, andI said I was denying everything that all
ended. I was like, oh, it's real, because it's real.
So so I I had no fearassociated with at night. So I did

(01:46:02):
the session with Yvonne and I atthe and the before the session began.
I went to her office and Ijust getting ready to laid down on the
couch and she waited to talk,and she asked me, like, what
do you want to talk about?And I said, I want to talk
about the night of March tenth,twenty thirteen. I saw the round structure
on the hill and it was nofear associated with it. It's like great.
So she then says, then Isay, hey, when I'm under.

(01:46:24):
When I'm under, you asked me, what's up with the owls?
Like, I'll have my like Ididn't understand hypnosis and my subconscious Well,
I'm curious what I'll say. It'sof course. So we go through the
session and she takes me to thenight and I'm lying on the side of
the road and and I and she'sshe says, you know what's happening.
I'm like, Oh, here's mycar, there's a bush. I'm on

(01:46:45):
my pillow. It's a really prettythe stars nice and cold. I got
my big thick sleeping bag. It'sreally nice. I like this. And
then I go, it's them,it's them. I know it's them.
Have you you've listened to a hypnosissession? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
that's wow. Is it like it? Yes? Or sometimes it gets
really whispery, so I just quietlysay it's them. I know it's them.

(01:47:06):
I know it's them. And thenI'm talking about the bright light behind
the bush. And the next thing, I'm looking down at this big round
thing on the ground. It's obviouslythe big round structure. I'm above it,
looking straight down here. Let meback up a little bit. I
don't trust this memories Like it's agreat story, and the story that emerged

(01:47:27):
is astounding, but I don't like, I'm really careful to like say it
truly happened the same way. They'llknow why in a second. So so,
so I'm looking down at this biground structure and I and I go,
I think I'm still in sleeping bag, and Nivon says, Mike,
are you out of body? AndI don't know. I might be,
but I'm like, I know I'min the sleeping bag, but I'm looking
down at this thing. And thenall of a sudden, next thing question,

(01:47:49):
I'm like walking down this hall andI'm I'm walking down It's a curved
hall, you know, all shiny, no lights, kind of metal plastic
key curved sculpted hallway, and it'slike, seems like it would if I
walked all the way around and makea big circle. It feels like I
was walking on the circumference of aflying saucer, but it felt like on

(01:48:10):
the inside. And I the firstthing, I'm six foot tall. First
thing I noticed was I'm not tall. I know just what it feels like
to be my height. I walkeddown in the hall and I'm like,
I'm not tall. And I lookedat my right. I looked at my
left, and there's gray aliens oneach side of me, and they're the
same height as me. And I'dsay that, and Evan says, look,
Mike looked down at your body.And I looked down and I got
this skinny space suit on and theselong, skinny fingers and I've got this

(01:48:33):
like like skinny body. And I'mI say, I think I'm a gray
alien. And it's this is aweird thing. It feels so normal.
Once again, I'm gonna back up. I don't trust this memory. It's
it's a wild, powerful story,but I don't I don't know what's true
or what's not so and I knowenough about myself is I would make myself
crazy if I tried to prove itor tried to trust it. And so

(01:48:57):
I'm completely a piece saying I havea really interesting story that came out of
hypnosis. I'm not going to I'mnot gonna just tied in knots if I
tried to figure out if it wastrue. So next thing I know,
I'm in a in a conference room. It's like with ugly carpeting and a
plastic folding tables and fluorescent lights,really like kind of like a crappy conference

(01:49:20):
room you'd find in a cheap motelsomewhere. And I'm standing facing this table
and there's these beings on the table. I can't really see them, but
they're kind of grayed out, andthey sure seem like the gray aliens that
I'm facing them. And I'm like, why am I here? What am
I? What's why am I here? And they all say kind of in
unison, they say, you volunteeredfor this? What does that mean?

(01:49:43):
I volunteered for this? Why amI here? And they went now is
the time? This went back andforth a little bit, and then all
of a sudden, I'm like furious. I'm furious, and I'm like screaming
and swearing and poor Yvonne you canhear on the tape like Mike, why
is what's happening? And like andI'm just like saying, they never told
me it would be this hard beinghere. I'm screaming that, I'm swearing
like they never told me there wouldbe pain. They never told me they

(01:50:06):
would loneliness. They never told methere would be depression. They never told
me it would be this hard beinghere. And the implication is that I,
in some o the realm, waswith them. Let's say, in
a previous life or a previous incarnation, I was with them, and that
I volunteered to come to Earth andthat oh, to weak breeze the physicality

(01:50:32):
or whatever it might be. Butall of a sudden, I was like
saddled, Oh I'm back, Okay, yeah, so they're so so and
I'm screaming and finally it gets andthe poor Yvonne's like like, Mike,
what do they want? And Iscreamed, they want me to play some
role? And then I'm like,I'm back in the sleeping bag. You
can hear. And I went fromI went from like Earth as tense as

(01:50:55):
I've ever been in my life two, so call it. My heart stopped,
just like instantly. And this it'slike for a full minute almost,
It's silent on the audio tape,and then you hear Yvonne's voice say,
Mike, what happens next? AndI said, I think I'm back in
the sleeping bag. And she askeda few more questions, and it went
around and around a little bit,and then this one I want to say,

(01:51:17):
this is and which she said,what did they want? And like,
I don't know what they want?And I said, you know what
it felt like. It felt likeif you were in a spy movie and
I was a spy and I heldan envelope that was sealed and I wasn't
allowed to open it. Right,That's what it felt like. Yeah,
And then she said, and Mike, what is your connection to owls?

(01:51:38):
And without skipping a beat, Isaid, the owls aren't important? Right.
That's so I had been like whisperingand nervous and chattering and screaming and
just like it was not easy communication. And then all of a sudden,
I speak, very clearly, theowls aren't important, and I can do
this. This is like seared intomy memory and just this. A few
sentences came out and I said,I am an artist, and I understand

(01:52:01):
the need for symbol. The owlis a symbol on a door, the
owl. The owl is not important. The door is important. The owl
is the correct symbol for the door, but the owl is not important.
We are on this side of thedoor in a tight, claustrophobic little hallway,

(01:52:25):
and on the other side of thedoor is an infinite vastness. Wow,
that's pretty profound you. Oh mygosh. So we only have five
minutes this time flew by. Youmentioned that you're an artist. Thank you
for sharing that with us. Ijust want to there's one of a door,

(01:52:45):
and he mentioned the door, sothat kind of symbolic. There you
go. So that's Matt Tony's.He wrote a book called The Crypto Terrestrials
and he died before He was aclose friend of mine. He died before
the book could come out, andso I had talked with him about doing
the illustrations for his book. SoI called the publisher and I said,
I'm doing the illustrations. I don'tcare what you say. Like I'm doing
him. He said, Yah,Mac told me about you, and I've
been trying to track you down.So so these are from that book that

(01:53:09):
was published in twenty ten. Yeah, you're You're a terrific artist. You're
so talented. Your books are fantasticand talk about synchronicity. So for the
last twenty four hours, I've beentalking about doors and locks and keys.
And you mentioned that you mentioned,you mentioned about these animals that you heard.

(01:53:30):
You heard the coyote next year headand we'll get to we'll get to
those books here. And to say, you mentioned the coyote next year head
and you can hear it like youcould give it a dog biscuit. That
happened to me yesterday. So Ihave hummingbird feeders out and they're fueling up
to migrate. And literally I wasgoing out of my mind because I could
hear the sound of the hummingbird likeit was stuck somewhere. And I'm looking

(01:53:51):
and I'm looking, I can hearit. I can hear it. It's
right there, it's right there.I'm moving things, I'm like, where
are you? I want to getthe thing I'm stuck and there's nothing,
And and I go downstairs to feedmy I'm on two acres up here on
the rocky mountains and I hear ananimal go down the steps of my deck.
There's no animal there. So thatvery thing just happened to me yesterday,

(01:54:13):
synchronous it It was just it waslike animal like the hummingbird was there.
I could hear it, but Icouldn't find it. And then another
animal was sounded like another animal.I could hear it, it was not
there. So that just happened yesterday. So it's so interesting you brought that
up. But really quick, weonly have a couple few minutes left,
and we didn't get to your otherseries of books, which is on outdoors,

(01:54:34):
backpacking, avalanches. You wrote achildren's book, fantastic. Can you
just kind of speak about these reallyquickly here in these last couple of minutes.
Sure. That was kind of adifferent chapter of my life. When
I was in the Northwest, Iwas working doing for an outdoor school.
I was teaching all these skills.I was teaching avalanche safety, I was
teaching back country skiing, the skitips for kids. I hung out with

(01:54:55):
the ski instructors up at the skiarea. And it's actually really that's got
a book, has got a cartoonalong the border, right you go for
you flip the pages. But thatit does. It's not selling very well,
but it's awful, like cute,so and then so so, Yeah,
that was my career for what forfor twenty nineteen ninety seven to two,

(01:55:16):
Yeah, so twenty years or sofifteen two years it was my career
was doing illustrations, cartoon illustrations forfor outdoor books. And then I did
a I wrote a few of them, but most of them were written by
other people. So if you lookat my thing and fifty, some of
those only have a couple of illustrationsin there, but but I did a
lot of illustration. They're terrific.And you're booth. The Unseen, that's

(01:55:36):
your newest book, The Unseen,and a book. The Unseen is a
novel. Oh my gosh, it'sit's I gotta be good at this.
It is a UFO book where Inever used the word ufo. It's a
story about abduction. It's I neverused the word abduction. I tried I
purpose. I did that on purpose. I want it's like going to give
myself a challenge I want. It'swhat I wanted. So it's a it's

(01:55:58):
actual, it's a on one level, it's a really fast paced, fun
thriller, right. So it's gotspies and and and and mystical elements like
remote viewing, and and there's alove story in there too, and and
below that is it? Is itsort of a deeper story. So I
was trying to imbue that deeper storyinto this pop culture kind of fast paced

(01:56:24):
adventure story. So people are readingit, and just my sister read it.
She's like, I loved this book. I was like, I just
I would hurry home every night soI could read the next chapter. And
then she didn't get that. Shewasn't like, why was what happened?
What was this supposed to? Ididn't get it. But other people are
really like, oh, I can'twait to get a deeper story. Yeah,
yeah, Oh I can't wait toget it. I hope everybody checks

(01:56:45):
out his new novel, The Unseen. Mike, we cannot thank you enough
for all big fans of yours.Thank you for taking the time. I
know you're gearing up for the symposiumfor all of those lucky folks. Head
it to the moof On Symposium.Make sure to to say hello to Mike
and next week we will see youback here and move on what's up,
Keep looking up at the skies andmaybe you'll have an ALO encounter. Thank

(01:57:06):
you to Tara, thank you toShane, and thank you to Chanel and
for Bill skywatcher at KGRRA, andwe will see you next week. Have
a great rest of your night.Everybody, good night. Thank you so much