Episode 15: Cult Vs. Scam with Guest Phil Maco.

In this episode, Craig Shoemaker sits down with Phil Maco, host of the "Muddy Waters" podcast, to dive deep into the unsettling similarities between cults and scams. They explore how cult leaders and scammers use similar tactics of manipulation, vulnerability, and false personas to control and exploit their victims. From personal stories to shocking insights, this episode uncovers the dark connections between these two worlds and offers valuable tips on recognizing the warning signs before it's too late.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, everybody, Welcome to My wife joined a cult, strange name.
It seems to be getting attention. I guess that was
the reason for it. And it's turning into its evolving
into something that's very spontaneous in flow and don't really
know where it's going to go. And I wanted to

(00:25):
have guests, and I have one today, Philip Philip Macco, Hi, Philip.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hey, good afternoon. Thank you so much. A honor to
join this journey with you.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
Thank you, And it is a journey. Thanks for mentioning
that it is a journey that we're all on. Yours
is a different journey. Everyone's is when you think about it.
But it's but then again, we're all one as well,
because many people have been subjected to cults that don't
even realize they are, and some people are in them

(00:55):
and they don't even know that they're in them. This
is part of what happens with cults, is the denial.
Do you identify with that? I do?

Speaker 2 (01:01):
And I think you know, we can expand that definition
of call to say anything that draws us in to
do something that is potentially not in our best interest
a long term can be a call. Can it influence
us in terms of the decisions we make the family,
we embrace the family, we separate from financial decisions we

(01:23):
make all those types of things. Yeah, those fall into
the area of expertise I have, which is in scams, cybersecurity, threats,
and calls. Because honestly, there are so many commonalities in
this space that I was excited to have this conversation.
And I think, you know, when we can help people,

(01:45):
we also can heal ourselves, right, whether it's you directly
or folks that you care about who have been affected
by these types of scenarios that I assume we're going
to talk about. You know, if we can spread a
message that says, hey, here's the warning size, here's what
to look out for, I think we're doing ourselves in

(02:07):
the world.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
I'm glad you said that, because can you bring your
microphone a little closer to you? I'm glad you said
that because a lot of the feed some not a lot.
Some of the feedback I'll get is, you know, there's
like blowback. Just let it go. That's what people say,
Just let it go. You know, they're like tired of
hearing it or whatever it is. Well, I don't agree
with that because I do think it's like quitting before

(02:31):
the miracle, and I do believe there are miracles out
there for people to have a transformation, to have a switch,
to have a moment of clarity where they get out
or someone helps them out, whatever it is, if we
just stay back and allow it to happen. This is
how Coltson's exists because people don't challenge them. They're just
let it go. There's a you can lead a horse

(02:51):
to water, can't make them drink, you can't force them. Well,
if you lean enough, is my theories. You've lean enough
to someday something clicks in them where they go, Ah,
this is correct. This is not good the way the
direction I've taken.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah, And you know, I would share a story with
you real quickly. Gentleman named and I'm using his pseudonym,
gentleman named Sea Why living in San Francisco, and he
got a random message from someone on WhatsApp that claimed
to be an associated is from the past, and you know,
he wasn't sure, he didn't remember her. Her name was Jessica,

(03:30):
and he engaged with Jessica right, and they started trading
some conversations and initially it was you know, let me
get to know you, let me learn a little bit
about what's going on in your life. It happened that
Sea Why's father was terminally ill and he was hospitalized,
and over time, in building that relationship, Jessica established Jessica

(03:55):
quo unquote, established that opportunity, that vulnerability. I'm going to
fast forward to the end of the story. Within three months,
See Why lost one point two million dollars, was financially devastated,
lost everything bar money from friends, mortgage's house which was

(04:15):
completely paid off. And the method and the steps between
that initial conversation and where it led and the punitive
damage to a guy like See Why is where the
commonality exists between scams and cults. So that's what I
was excited to joining this conversation and listen, I've listened

(04:39):
to your origin story. I feel for you as a person,
so many things you've been through in this evolution. I
think it's cathartic to share that with others. I agree,
but it's beyond that. It's about, Hey, are these signs
occurring in your life and how can we help you
recognize those things?

Speaker 1 (04:58):
So thank you, I appreciate that. That is a big
motivation I always my whole life. I like to help
people and make people happy. Actually, I've been doing comedy
for years. I just absolutely love making people happy. I
think people would be happier if they were out of
a cult. I think if people would be happier if

(05:20):
their loved ones were out of a cult and more
into family, more into bonding that way, more into love,
divine love. And you know, that's what I believe. I've
watched that happiness exist for a long time. I don't
see the happiness, for instance, in my ex wife's cult.
What she's in is I watch the fake happiness. They

(05:42):
all it's just like any of these If you do
watch the cult documentaries, I'm addicted to them, and it's
just every single one of them. Oh glory, Oh here
we are. We're singing in harmony and everything else. You've
got a Jim Jones where they go drink the kool Aid,
nail I'll die together. That's the level that it can go.

(06:04):
It's it's it's called drink the kool Aid because of
what happened with Jim Jones and Guyana in the seventies,
and he got people to literally kill themselves. That's the
power that they have. I think one thing in common
that cult leaders have is they become God. And now
there's a documentary Mother God on HBO. I'm watching that

(06:26):
as well. They have it. There's a leader with a
God complex. It sounds it's such an odd term to
say God complex. It sounds like they're they're insecure about it.
But because you know, I've got a complex. Well, they
believe that they are God, and people believe that they
are God or some form of that, all their beliefs

(06:48):
put in them. Whatever they say, they start to follow it,
and then it becomes a brainwashing. I heard yesterday someone
said something about, well, I'm happy to have had my
brain cleansed, and I think that's what they rely on.
If you have people's statements like that, I'm happy to
have my brain because they believe that they're cleansing their
brain from toxins like people that they're dealing with, and

(07:12):
they leave those people to go into this cleansing that
they believe, really they really believe it is a cleansing.
Tell me your experience with that as well. I mean,
you tell us your experiences with cults. Tell give us
some idea of where you come from and what happened
to you.

Speaker 2 (07:32):
So the origin story in my first novel was really
centered around this experience. I grew up in the Theosophical Society,
and for many years I met with the dolts that
you know. We'd sit in a pastor and they'd say, yeah,
I talked to a pixie or a dwarf today, and
he told me x y and Z, which I was

(07:54):
pretty cool as a kid, right, But as I grew up,
I realized Number One, the society embraced all religions, all beliefs,
and it was non judgmental. But that being said, you know,
and I'm the kind of guy Craig and this might
be TMI, but you know, I am not one that
cannot be productive in everything that I do, including those

(08:17):
necessary things we do in the necessary room. Right. So
one day I'll never forget this. I had to go
to the necessary room and I saw in my brother
in law's bookshelf a book on cults. So I took
that with me to the necessary Room, and when I
opened up the page, the very first cult that they

(08:38):
identified as the world's largest call was what I grew
up in. And I was shocked by this, right, it
inspired by it inspired the Nazi culture. The one race
theory that Adolf Hitler had was inspired by Madam Blovotsky
in the Theosophical Society. Imagine my shot in the Necessary

(09:02):
Room readings, right. But I think we have to step
back and say to ourselves, first of all, what are
we gaining from this experience? And secondarily are there things
that are being exploited in us in that experience? And
if we trace this back to its origins, and you know,

(09:24):
you've been sharing your soul and I soul respect that like,
so as you saw the early signs of this encroaching
reach of a cult into your family, how did it start?

Speaker 1 (09:41):
For me? It started with we're going to get back
to you, by the way, But because people have heard
my story, but it started, believe it or not. I
was talking about it today with this woman Broke, I
call her Broke. Brought us an insurance multi level mark
the insurance thing, and I actually introduced her to my

(10:03):
wife at the time. We bought an insurance policy. But
it's always more than that. With multi level marketing or
people call a pyramid scheme whatever it was, and since
I've been in them, I refuse to call it a
pyramid scheme too, because I don't want to diminish the
success that some people have had. It's not about that.
It's about certain people that are in that that don't

(10:25):
have monitors. You know, they don't have to have qualifications.
There's no education, there's no credibility, there's no credentials. All
of that does not exist in multi level marketing. That's
the problem with it. There's no one checking you out.
They're not vetting you, you know, they don't really know
how much money you're making. I remember when I was
in this. I was in the thing actually with my wife,

(10:46):
is called Zuri, and I love the product, and I
used to go to these meetings. I'm going, do you
people realize how great this product is? Liquid nutritional? I
feel fantastic. They're going, no, no, no, it's not about
the product. They were in the motor oil business like
a few weeks before. I mean, it doesn't. When the
people are at multi level marketing, they'll just go wander,
you know, on on and on to the next one.

(11:08):
So whatever. I'm going, Hey, wait a minute, it's the product. No, no,
it's not. It's about getting people under you who work
for you, and then under that and under the down
line is what they call it. So she had this
with this insurance thing that she skipped down. I remember
saying to my wife at the time, how are you
okay with that? So suddenly we just have this new
representative and you're just okay with this. That was the

(11:31):
first little sign she was okay with this very powerful woman.
Anything that she did, it was sketchy. And then she
brought us the year to Millionaire and that was with
this other sketchy woman named Raven, and Raven took people
a ten thousand dollars apiece to put him in a mansion.
There was no mansion, by the way, and what they

(11:52):
were gonna film it for a reality series and just
sound a little appealing to me, But that's what broke
brought us into that and was like she was the
producer of it and her husband directed it. And that
was a bunch. That was a big scam. That's eighty
thousand dollars later. And then she got out of that
finally we used to call a boo group. Anyway, there's
a whole scenario here where she just refused to believe

(12:16):
that this woman who's a very powerful you know, she's
very passionate about whatever she does. But it's something different
every day. It's mommy minute. So now I'm the expert mother,
and you're gonna listen to me, and I'm this expert mother.
And they had mommy minutes together and they've taken photos.
I still have the photo on my phone. I mean
it just so she just went with it. It like

(12:38):
she fell in love with her instead of falling in
love further with her family and her husband, of which
you're committed to. The commitment went over to this other.
This woman broke And that's what happens with a cult,
is they give their life over that they empower them,
they deify them to dictate how they feel, what they do,

(13:01):
and the person what they do. What she did was
she praised my ex wife had the wife at the time.
She just praises her, and that's how she keeps her.
She keeps her under her spell in that way. And
now they're into a whole other thing. They're into sado
masochism and bondage and bragging about it. And we have

(13:25):
small children, We have children there are someday going to
be it should be the last stor I just don't
know what to do. Anymore because the more I you know,
they say what you resist persists, so it seems to
persist even more. But I'm still gonna stand in solution.
I'm still gonna stand in courage and get tips from

(13:46):
other people. One of the reasons I have guests on
like You is like, let's hear your experience with the cult,
getting in, getting out, observations, fill us in on some
of the inside of this, the workings of this. It's
just it's it is fascinating. It's unfortunate, it's fascinating that
I have to take part in it. But it's nicer

(14:07):
to see it from the outside when you watch these documentaries.
But so tell me, tell me your experience.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
So first of all, let's celebrate the fact that you
are standing strong. Let's celebrate the fact that you've stamped
to your place in the ground and you've said, this
is what I want to accomplish. Is how I'm going
to educate people, because not everybody is brave enough to
take those steps. Greg and I so value let's step
back a few steps.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
So many people, by the way, want to quit. I mean,
they they'll probably quit the podcast. You know, they're out
of the journey. People, most people. I'm serious. I mean,
I find this in life. I'm one of the few
people that's resilient and stand strong no matter what. And
I've had I told my ex wife recently, I told her,
I said, you're an abuser. Worse, maybe worse than I

(14:56):
had when the guy that kidnapped me, a serial pedophile.
It could be worse because it's maniacal and it's it's like,
it's evil, it's cruel, it's mean spirited. You know, the
cutting off, the and the you know the obviously the
violence and all that, but it's worse. The emotional violence
is worse. The fact that can't even have a discussion

(15:20):
all of that, just put her power into this other
woman and they have this relationship now and lied about
and just pathological lying that I've never even seen before.
And that's abusive. People think that you need to be
some guy that beats a woman that be abusive. Now,
emotional abuse it's out there. The eviscerating of men, the

(15:40):
emasculation of men, it's really really deeper than it. So
that's why this exploration has to do with that as well.
It's like, what's our society doing and what are we doing?
About these things, these new paradigms that are being developed.
So I'm here to like talk about it. Let's have
a conversation about it that's other than her. She runs
from every conversation. So lets us have a conversation.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
Yeah, let's break this down to is irreducible minimums and
we start with what the FBI has turned as the
sock puppet persona. I think you know, maybe Craig, you've
heard that term, but maybe listeners haven't. It is that
persona that is created online that says I'm successful, I'm

(16:26):
living the life that you want, I'm what you dream
to be. And imagine you know whether you're weak, whether
you're broken, whether you're vulnerable. And I'll share this with
you in your audience. You know I was situationally vulnerable.
I was in a head on car collision a couple
of years ago and I suffered a traumatic brain injury.

(16:49):
And over the course of my rehabilitation, all the money
that I spent and all the time that I spent,
you know, there was a hole to dig out. Right.
So from a financial person which creates vulnerability, from a
spiritual perspective, from a personal relationship perspective, all these things
are things that these sock puppet personas look for. But

(17:13):
first they have to present themselves to the world in
the way that says, wow, I you know, this is
an intriguing person. I can't believe they reached out to me, right,
So it happens in the world of scams. Very randomly.
You'll get a message on WhatsApp or social media and
app or whatever it may be dating site if you're
on those kind of sites, and it's a beautiful person,

(17:36):
usually Southeast Asian, to be very honest and married to
a Chinese woman. So you know, I want to ask
permission to explain it in that way. But that's the truth.
And they have Gucci bags and they're traveling to San
Francisco and you know, Maui and all the places we
want to go to. So when you get this message

(17:57):
from them, you may look them up online and you
may see all this proof of success. Right. Yes, that
is social engineering, and that is social proof.

Speaker 1 (18:09):
Absolutely. When they do those modeling shots with the you
know food porn and you know sight seeing porn, it's
all allure and they have a vanity light. I actually
think that some of them. I get a lot of
the you know, I hate to say Asian as well,
but look that's the fact. A lot of times people

(18:30):
get upset to go, oh that's racist or whatever. Is well,
if it's a fact that that's how many that I've received,
it's ninety percent are Asian, And you know they'll say
they're Mandarin whatever it is. I actually tell me if
this is true, I actually think that some of the
photos they're counting on your racism, that they're not even
the same person. Oh that's true. Yeah, they use stock

(18:52):
photos or whatever it is. And I've had it actually
happen Russian women as well. I've had the same sort
of thing where they're it's just it's bait, it's all
it's clickbait, it's it's thirst trap, all of those things.
So they're appealing to our vulnerability as a man, especially
if you're womanless, and that's what they do. They lure

(19:14):
you in that way. But these they entice you. And
then Lotus is doing the same thing, and it's I
know that it's a lie because I see her, I
see how much she makes and I have to pay support.
So if she's making that kind of money, then start
paying me. That would be wonderful. I would love that
if this was reversed and now Broke is bragging that

(19:35):
she got a house in Mexico, How do we know
that that's true? I have no idea. How did we
know that she didn't inherit or or her boyfriend has money.
We don't know any of this because they're not going
to tell you the truth. It's a facade, like a
western town. Look at this western town. Look at this
as gun smoke. Oh, incredible, But behind it is literally

(19:57):
it's a shell. There's nothing behind it, and it's it's
amazing to me how we believe it though, and we
can believe by movies show that those are those are
just shells, Those are not real buildings. That's what they
can do.

Speaker 2 (20:13):
I really want to draw a defining line for your
audience and help your audience understand that there is no
difference between scams which cost the Americans in the billions
for a loan, which are just exponentially growing. There's no
difference between how scams approaching, how cyber threats approach you,

(20:39):
how romance scams pick butcher and scams which we'll talk about.
There is absolutely no difference between that and how cults approaching.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
That's one hundred percent Tinder Swindler was another movie, a
documentary where you're sitting there going you feel bad for
this woman just bought the whole thing or the other
one where she bought that he was a doctor. How
about people that buy into the guys who have a
number of wives, you go into denial. That's a message
I want to get across the people is when you

(21:07):
go into denial, be okay, have your ego, be okay
with Yeah, it's happening to you. Yeah, you made this choice.
It was so hard for me to go, oh my god,
there's no way that the person I married and looked
into her eyes and Malli and all that, there's no
way that she could be this that's my ego. Why

(21:29):
can't it? Why can't I be tender Swindler?

Speaker 2 (21:32):
You know, I was like, imagine, you know, I referenced
see why and see why's dad who is turning and
ill imagine see why looking in the eyes of his
dad who's in the hospital bed and saying, Dad, I
think I found something. I think I found a way
to pay your hospital wills. I think I've found a
way to bring you home. I'm so inspired, I'm so happy.

(21:53):
It's a same sel that we experienced face to face
with a loved one, with someone we care about that
is under the influence. And yeah, Craig, it begins with
that sock puppet persona, as the guy defines it. And
once you engage with that person, right, the next goal
is to learn things about you. In the case of

(22:18):
see why you know, isn't it valuable for a cybersecurity
scammer to learn that See why has a father who's
telling me all that the medical expenses are piling up?
What does that equate to? That equates the vulnerability? Same
as I'm not fulfilled in my relationship, I don't have friends,

(22:39):
I don't love the life that I lead, I don't
feel spiritually fulfilled, you know, fill in the blanks of
all the things that we as human beings naturally experience
in our journey. Right, all of the sock puppet to
relationship transitions is to find those little threats points and

(23:01):
to start to weave a story around those thread points.
Because guess what, as we get deeper into this skim
into this call, those are the things that are exploited.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
Yes they are. That's funny, as you're speaking. I'm thinking
about where my ex wife at the time wife was
when this woman came along. And this is something I've
an understanding and compassion for, just like you would have
compassion for the person that was rooked with the sick father.

(23:35):
Right on this case, the sickness was not the sickness,
but the vulnerability was. Okay, let me broke. I'm going
to go for women, middle aged with children, with a
husband who's successful. Let me give her her identity because

(23:58):
she's going to be struggling for her identity. She's now
weakened by postpartum, She's weakened by society. What's her place
in society? Is it as a mother? Is it as
a wife? Let me give her an identity. I'm saying
this out loud again to help people to watch out

(24:19):
for that. If you are this podcast is there for
it to be a solution for if you're in a cult,
if you want to get someone out of a cult,
if you want to identify what a cult is, if
you don't want to be in one yourself or be scammed,
That's who this is for. So that's who she prayed upon.
And by the way, Broke went after another guy came

(24:41):
and he says, I lost my wife to this woman,
same thing. Suddenly she's shown up these meetings and meetings
and meetings, and then it's how many meetings happened? Becomes
the brainwashing and there's no one ever that admits I
was brainwashed, No one until they come to the day
they can that they can go, Okay, I am now

(25:02):
going to admit this, which is really rare that people
admit they're wrong so much. The pride is another vulnerability,
you know what.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
I'm not going to swear, but I wish I could,
because what I want to say is this, if I
meet people that help me refine the view I have
of myself, then they're creating value in my life.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
It's true.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
People that are trying to redefine me in the way
that they want to, then they're predators.

Speaker 1 (25:33):
Most like, Wow, what a wonderful way to express that.
Thank you. That's fantastic. That really that was so eloquent
and so well put and I had not heard it
that way, and it really hit me. That's exactly right.
Can you repeat that? And maybe not the exact words,
but I really want people to hear what you just said,
but something to the effect of what you said directly
what you said. It's important that we walk away with this,

(25:55):
So go ahead.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
So let me walk you through that evolution. Right, So
let's go back to the story of c Why see
why I met quote unquote Jessica. And Jessica was beautiful.
She had a sock puppet account that had her traveling
in the world, all those trappings that would say to yourself,
you know, this is something I want to engage with.
And we as human beings, you know, we see those

(26:20):
kind of photos and we're like, oh my gosh, this
person called me out. How cool was this? Right? I
feel unique, I feel special. We all want to feel
those feelings and see why I definitely did. And what
I want to say to you on the other side
of this equation is that Jessica was not as you
probably figure Jessica. The UN estimates that there were over

(26:45):
one hundred and twenty thousand human trafficking victims in the
country of me and mar alone. Who are this Jessica persona?

Speaker 1 (26:54):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (26:55):
They are taken to the country and there's some exposis
on how this all works. They're taking in the country
under arm guard. They're given playbooks. They're given managers, they're
good quotas, they're beaten, they're electrocuted, they're in prison, and
sometimes they're killed if they don't hit those quotas, and
their quotas are exploiting you as a person. It is

(27:16):
no different in a cult environment. So imagine this whole
playbook that says, first, I want to build a relationship.
Once I do, I want to understand the vulnerabilities I
can exploit. Later, I want to relate to them. I
want to give them the hope of something different. And
that's the next evolution in the call. Right, So who

(27:39):
you are today is transcendent to who you can become
in the future. And if I can sell you on
the vision of transcendently who you can become, then I've
got you bought it. Then you're willing to make some
sacrifices along the way to be that person that we
both envisioned and have agreed that you can become. And
that's where the call has a power. That's where these

(28:01):
scammers have their power. When they take you off your
game to become that person they sell you you can become.
You're willing to make those sacrifices that you wouldn't individually.
So I want to know who can I be and
how can you help me be that person? Versus how
are you telling me I should be and where are
you forcing me to move towards in terms of that evolution,

(28:25):
And that is a defining point in cults and in scammers.

Speaker 1 (28:28):
I can plus that by saying, you know, I coach
myself and I mentor and I have for years. The
difference is I believe I'm going to share my experience
on how I got there, the truth of how I
got there, the truth of what has happened, the truth
of how much success is there. There's actual tangible numbers,
there's there's fans that I've had for the years obviously

(28:52):
have been successful in that way. So I can let
people know this is how I did it, this is
how I succeeded in another number of areas. And I've
always said that I'm not going to coach you on
something I don't know about if if there's an answer.
I remember coaching a guy who was a cross dresser,
and it came to that he had to talk to

(29:15):
me about it, and I said to him, I have
no experience in that except my mom dressed me as
a girl for Halloween every year, and it's all I have.
I didn't know what else to tell them, so I'm
not going to say, here's what you need to do.
And I've been noticing this a lot in the coaching world.
How many people are talking in these videos and they're
literally just what my kids called a yap sessh yap session,

(29:42):
so they called a yap session. They're just talking about,
you know, platitudes and ideas and concepts on here's what
you need to do. I want to hear. Here's what
I did to reach Shangri La. Here's my journey to
Shangri Law. Here's what and by I'll take you with
me and I'm going to show you where certain potholes

(30:03):
are and certain difficulties are. But I can't respect these.
And now I'm starting to notice it. I never noticed
it before. And it's a lure because they look good,
they sound good, they sound like they have everything together.
So there's the warning out there. You just expressed the difference.
I think it's so well put. Yeah, so anagurate.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
Here's the evolution, Craig. And you know I'm speaking to
the choir because you've experienced, right, so that soft puppet
creates credibility and then building relationships, establishing those vulnerable points
in conversation, building trust together. Then comes he ask, and
it's usually an incremental ask, right, It's not, hey, give

(30:47):
up your life today, but instead take this step with me,
and guess what comes after that? It is love on it,
It is you know, we're going to celebrate this moment
with you, and you are so welcome in this community,
and you know we embrace you and we understand you,
and all these things that support that next decision, because
everything hinges on that next decision, whether it be scams,

(31:11):
whether it be called to get you in that place
as a person where you're like, I finally feel welcome,
I finally feel like I can achieve my goals financially, physically,
whatever that may be. I think I found a home. Yeah,
but there were some steps after that.

Speaker 1 (31:29):
And they jump in those gaps. They find those gaps
and they jump right in them and they fill those
holes for you in a very conniving but intelligent way.
They do. They're so good at what they do. And
I just did just this morning. I I was just

(31:50):
taken aback by. I walked outside and there she was
driving away my ex wife and I'm going, oh, okay,
there it is. She dropped something off on the and
I just thought to myself, what a world did they
live in where they have to have this conniving, secretive,

(32:10):
deceptive life where you have to drop something off at
the man you once were married to, the man you
made love to have two beautiful children, the man you
rose children to raise children with, even step children, and
that it's reduced to that where you have to hide
for even a hello. How sad is that you can't

(32:32):
even say hello because you can't face there's such hatred
and such hatred because I think it's because I can't
say it was because of I think it's just because
of realizing the truth that's really there. I think there's
a deep down knowing and awareness of how far but
now it's too late, so I can't face that. I can't,

(32:53):
you know, she got I've tried to hey, let's have
game night, let's show the kids how mature we can be.
Let's have a discussion now. And I watched it this morning.
How but I just thought to myself, Wow, it's like
a thief in the night. And again you're going to
deny you go, this person can't be that. Well, who's
to say they can't anybody? I forgot to add to

(33:17):
other vulnerability menopause, something you and I will probably never understand,
even though the word men is in it put men
on pause. I don't think we could possibly understand the
hormonal changes. But where's this support group that says, hang
in there, sister, don't leave, sister, don't leave, and don't

(33:40):
have reasons to abandon your family and all that. That's
your hormones talking. Some sort of support group. We need
support groups for all of this. That's what I believe.
Support groups, twelve step groups that don't have a leader,
don't have money that's exchanged, whatever it is. Find these
groups that needs to become the narrative as opposed to, Oh,

(34:02):
here's another coach and another coach, and another coach and
another coach. None of them, not very few of them
with credentials or life experience that they could share with
you that has led to something that is shangri law
to them. They're on their way, maybe maybe on their way.
Do I want someone on their way? If you're coached,

(34:25):
let's say you're playing basketball. I know that Michael Jordan
went to Tim Grover. Tim grover Is he paid him
off so he couldn't even coach anyone else. That's the
edge that he wanted, because the guy knows what he's doing,
and that's who you go to. But when you're vulnerable,
I totally get it. Charles Manson, I've read up on

(34:46):
Charles Manson. Charles Manson did what my father ended up doing.
My father's a cult leader, was a cut leader himself.
And you know what they do. They fill in the
gap on the father ish almost like a genius. They
seem like a genius, like, you have father issues, don't you.
It's like a it's like a Jedi trick. You have
father is shoes, don't you so? And they go, yes,

(35:10):
I do. And there they got them. Because it looks
like they're geniuses that they they they chose you have
you have mother issues or whatever it is. They find
that gap and they seize it. It's amazing to watch,
but also the saddest thing in the world to watch
somebody that just gives up, gives up themselves and their

(35:32):
own power and empower someone else. So tell me about
your experience of I believe you were telling me when
we spoke briefly about heimmitt Am I right about that,
my right calling correctly hemt or somewhere you have some
experience in that town. You know.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
I don't want to be specific about the organization because
I don't want to open up to the losses, but
what I will say is in him At California, there
is a facility that has about eight hundred folks that
live there full time, and if you go online you
might be able to figure out who that is. Early

(36:13):
in my sales career, I was dropped off in front
of the front gate. I was met by a guard
with an R fifteen who walked me back to meet
the chef. And over the course of three plus years
I did business in that facility, later to learn that
the founder of that set organization had been living there

(36:34):
hiding from the irs, and that's why the armed guards
were there. And you know, I got a chance to
really understand what they embraced, what they thought about, what
was important to them. And I think, you know, let's
go back to your now ex wife's experience. Let's go
back to cise experience, because what happens in both of

(36:58):
these occurrences is the separation from who we are today,
who we care about, and who they want you to
be in the future. And there is an absolute goal.
Once they've established a report, once they've identified your weaknesses,
it's important to separate you from those friends that might
encourage you not to do the things that you're doing,

(37:21):
those friends that might warn you, hey, you're stepping into
something dangerous. In the case of see why that I mentioned,
there is a proof element in this cybersecurity scan. It's
called pig butcher. And what they've done is they've created
fictitious cyber I'm sorry, cryptocurrency sites and they invite you

(37:44):
to these sites and you invest a little bit of money,
maybe it's a hundred bucks and you make a thousand bucks,
and then you invest two hundred bucks and you make
five thousand bucks. None of it's real. It is a
website that they're maintaining. These Southeast Asian gangs that have
these and this is true. Look it up CNN as
an exposition. These sites give you the proof of what

(38:08):
you're looking for in life, no different than calls. Right,
come to our meeting, join our community, and you can
see these people. You're so happy, they're so fulfilled and
everything else. But you have to be prepared to make sacrifices.
You have to give up your prior life to find
your new life, which means you have to give up

(38:28):
your friends, your family, your husband, and your kids, all
those other things that they don't agree with you, if
they don't align with what this is, you have to
be willing to step away from them in pursuit of
that journey you've identified with me. And it's no different
in the Hemet location which will remain unidentified, eight hundred

(38:51):
people living there had given up their entire lives to
be a part of this facility, to be a part
of this community. They had given all their money, and
they'd given all their time. They left their lives behind
with the promise of something more, and you know what,
cred Maybe some of them found it. Maybe they did.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
Right. Yeah, I happen to know them. I happen to
know a number of the of the people you're talking about.
And it's right, it's some people do and everything could
be considered a cult when you think about it. Every religion,
I mean, anything where there's a leader can be considered

(39:28):
a cult. An aerobics class do they have aerobics anymore?
Spin class? You could have a spin class and that
leader as you believing, if you spend twenty times a week,
you're going to have the body that I have, right,
And people people just show up and it's good for
them and and they're trained that this is great for

(39:51):
my body and so on, and it's great for a
number of people. A lot of these things, they're great.
As a matter of fact, I don't know that my
ex wife isn't having the time of her life. That
it's not fantastic. It could be exactly what she she covets.
It could be exactly what she wants and always did want.
Maybe she did want this pain pleasure with sex, which

(40:14):
she never mentioned to me, But maybe that was one
of the reasons. I don't know. I mean, that's a
I think it's a new thing. You never know what
she's been hiding. Maybe she was looking for a woman guide.
Maybe she was you know what I mean. We don't know.
We don't know. I know that it's it's it's sad,
but maybe it's not sad. Maybe in the long run,

(40:37):
I'd see these people that you're talking about, and some
of them are friends, and I don't see them as
being manipulated. It could be my denial. I watched it,
and they're just like, it's just like showing up to
another church and whatever is in front of them, you know.
And obviously that's worked for people throughout history, or a

(41:01):
synagogue or mosque or whatever it is. It works until
until people start to get hurt. I think that's what
the difference is is people you'll take anyone down because
you have no conscience. Your conscience has been hijacked. Lotus's
conscience has been hijacked. There is no talk about it,

(41:25):
there's no there's nothing except for her way. It doesn't
matter who's hurt, it doesn't matter what's destroyed. It's even
finances or finances. She's completely annihilated the finances with no
conscience whatsoever. No apology, no regret, no fixing, no amends, nothing.

(41:46):
And that's part of what happens when people go into
a cult. They're in denial of the people they hurt.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
And again, I am so sorry that you've had to
experience that in the personal consequences involved in you going
through that experience, and not just you, but your kids.
And I say to myself, look, anytime someone asked me
to sacrifice something of me, in exchange for a promise

(42:16):
should raise a question and let's take it to its
logical conclusion. You mentioned Jim Jones, and I think that
that was one extreme in my novel. I researched the
Celestial Temple, and people joined the Celestial Temple with the
promise of better lives and more financial success and all

(42:39):
the resources and the brain power that this organization brought Craig,
they ended up in suicide circles. Yeah, people feet pointing inward,
fire burning shots fired into their head. And this was,
you know, thousands of people in a mass suicide. Because
the evolution of this fault is when it doesn't deliver

(43:01):
on those promises, it then points inward to society. It
points inward to the blame why we're not succeeding. It's
not our fault, it's everything else here, and we have
to extricate ourselves from this community. It's a dangerous world
we work, and when people are drawn into this call,
so the question becomes, and from your experience, what do

(43:25):
we do to help those people that have loved ones
they care about that may be stepping in that direction.
How do we provide them resources? What questions do we
ask to help them critically think through the steps they're
taking and where they may be leading their lives into.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
Yeah, I'll put out to anybody, write me a note
at Craig at Craigshoemaker dot com if you want to
discuss it, if you want to form groups that there's
power numbers, safety in numbers. We just don't know how
far they can go. And we see those examples that
can't happen to me. You're a paranoid if you think
that that's what I'm getting, or just drop it. Getting

(44:07):
so much of that and people that you know, they're
just they just stay in the sadness or they say
I no, don't feel sorry for me. This is my evolution,
this is my what's an expression, cross to bear or
whatever it is. But it's okay that it is. That's
the thing is. I'm not dying. I'm not quitting. It's

(44:28):
just not who I am. I'm resilient. I'm gonna get
up and I'm gonna thrive no matter what, no matter
what your circumstance. I say this to the audience, no
matter what your circumstance is, why would you quit? Now?
Lotus quit every single thing that she was ever involved with,
so there was that indication. I would watch her quit, quit, quit,
and I was so proud of her. The things that

(44:49):
she did do. She was a translator, was she was
a union electrician. I was so proud of you. I
did a pilot once and she was my girlfriend. Oh
the boss's girlfriend. It wants to be an electrician. And
by the end of it, they're going, you're in the union.
How'd you get there? She shows up on a tool belt.
I was so proud of her and all the things
that she would do, and then something would happen and

(45:11):
sh just gone and onto the next one. But it's
the integrity that is so missing with people. That integrity
is not at the top of the list, and I
think it needs to be values, integrity, morals. And what
they do is they manipulate what even your moral standards are.

(45:31):
Let's say what those are morals for other people. I
remember that was a big conversation I had with the
guy that kidnapped me. I said, what about morals? I
was a little thirteen year old boy. I was trying
to get out of this is ghetto hotel and I
remember them laying into me because you know, I'm gonna
curse here. Fuck morals those are from somebody else. You

(45:52):
know what does that mean? It to you and me?
You know we're best friends, aren't we. This is what
best friends do. See that convince seeing this vulnerable boy,
that these are the morals that you should go by.
These are the values his this person who's acting like
a father figure boy, scout leaders, Jerry Sandusky, the football coach.

(46:17):
These are people that they're predators, but so are these
cult leaders. It's all very similar and it's all kind
of blended. It's why I'm doing this podcast is or
where do these things? Where are the commonalities with things
like you were talking about with you know, the deathbed
or you know the rip off, the crypto, whatever it is,
you know, luring you into something, scam, the tender swindler.

(46:40):
Is that a cult? Yes, it's all related because they're
doing the same thing. It's the same process. It's the
same process to bring you in. They bring you in
because you're lacking something, you're lacking something in your life
and that's how they pull you into their lair. That's

(47:01):
what this guy did to me, That's what this woman
did to my ex wife. I'm gonna pull you in
and dominate you and control your mind and manipulate your mind,
and any questions that are asked, let's attack the person
who's asking those questions. You know it was threatened by

(47:23):
the cult leader's boyfriend with my vulnerability, I'm gonna take
your kids away now practically practically, of course, can't do that.
Far from it. I'm a great father. But there you
had it. They knew how to get to me my kids,
and she Lotus had them do this and thinks nothing

(47:45):
of it. That's how programmed you can be with your
values or gone, your morals are gone. Here's the father
of your children who you you're saying texting on one hand,
texting what an incredible father, dedicated father, and then you're
having these people attack at the same time. That's how
they can be that schizophrenic. And then there's the mental

(48:08):
illness that enters into it. I'm sure you're familiar with
that as well.

Speaker 2 (48:14):
Craig Andy. You know the advice I would have for
our audience, and I so respect those that stuck with
us because this has been meaningful and transformational. Number One,
understand your personal limitations and do your research, because what

(48:36):
happens is there is a confirmation bias bubble that we
into when we see things, when we hear things that
align with who we believe we are, what we believe
we understand, we're drawn towards those things to the exclusion
of other things that may be beneficial to us. Those

(48:57):
can be punitive. And then there is, and I'm just
going to be frank the Dunning Kruger effect, which I'm
sure we're familiar with, right, that says when you don't
know a topic, but you believe in your intelligence enough
that instead of being educated on the topic, you're going
to trust your own opinion, confident and move forward. What

(49:19):
I say to your audience is, do your research. Understand
what are the hooks and cults, what are the hooks
and scams, how do they operate, what are the commonalities
within their approaches? And you know what, you know, we
meet people every day in our lives that can be
blessings to us, and we don't want to exclude those folks, right,

(49:42):
But we want to separate the predators from the beneficial
folks in our lives. And we can't do that unless
we understand the difference between those two things. So, setting
aside the confirmation bias debt, and I'm guilty of it
to your dunning Kruger, right, I think I know what
I don't until I realized I didn't know it. Take

(50:03):
yourself on what it looks like to be introduced to
a call. What are the behaviors? What are the behaviors
of a scam? Know what those signs are, and be
brave enough to ask yourself that question when you think
you're experiencing them, Could this be the case? And what resources?
And I think Craig, You're an excellent one to reach
out to should that occur.

Speaker 1 (50:24):
Yeah. And the other thing that I would add to
that is a trust of self that we are our
own news source, We are our own research. When you're
talking about the deepening of your own healing, the deepening
of your grand love, the deepening of true self, authentic self,
deep and deep and deep and deep in that, and

(50:47):
then you're out of fear, because fear is the motivating
factor for most of these moves that we make. I'm
so happy if anything I've happened in my life is
being courageous and not to address my fears and courageous
enough to go, oh, I don't need to go to
a news source for that, because they're just choosing the

(51:07):
news that they want me to have, because they're going
to manipulate me. By the way, mass media is a cult,
probably the worst one. Now social media is becoming a cult.
So I get to make my own decisions that are
based in love, tolerance, compassion, empathy, understanding, divineness, divine flow,

(51:28):
the ethereal sense of who I am. I get to
tap into that. That's the taped in resource there. It is.
So people, you're not an expert. And I'm gonna say this,
no one is. No one is an expert than anything.
It's all who you deify and dictate who should be

(51:51):
the expert? Trust science? Which scientists do you trusted? He
trusted Joseph Mengele in Nazi Germany. That was thus scientist,
the doctor, the go to doctor. And how that turn out?
That's what happens when we just mindlessly go out of
our mindfulness and make sure that we put this label

(52:15):
on someone. And there's my answer, I did my research.
No you didn't. I'd challenge anyone to say when they
start pontificating on, you know, some political belief that they
have whatever, it's no, you've been you've been indoctrinated. It's
your choice. You chose this source because you just said

(52:37):
it earlier, Philip, it's confirmation bias. We're walking into these
things with confirmation bias. People were supporting my ex wife.
They are there, it's confirmed. Their bias is confirmed. She's
already put it out there. I'm a hippie, I'm good,
I'm kind, I'm a meditator, I'm a breathwork person. I'm
a tapper. Yeah, well, wow, she's gotta be she's got

(53:00):
to have it together. Look how pretty she is, and
look at these open minded and soulful videos and things
like that. It's confirmation biased because we all walk in
going no, the bad guy looks like that guy. That
guy can't look like this, there's no way. That's how
they ended up with Mother Love and that that documentary

(53:23):
Mother Love. That's how Tinder Swindler happened. This guy looked
a certain way, and he gave her what she needed,
thought she needed without looking deep inside. That's what I
would say to anyone is deepen, deep in your spiritual practice,
Deep in this spirit that's within you, this potency that
exists inside of you. It has your answers. We're geniuses.

(53:44):
You know, don't you agree with that, Philip, We're all geniuses.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
I do. And you know, I'm chuckling because I have
written five books, and it's been part of my life
to be a public soa author. It's always been a journey.
I wanted to explore my third book, my first, second
and third book. I should say, we're all nonfiction, and
I gotta say, I feel like I was a pretty

(54:08):
good nonfiction writer. Then I decided I wanted to try
exploring fictional work, and I hired an editor, and thankfully
I did. And I said to him listening, I'm going
to write a bestseller in three months, and he's like, yeah,
of course you are. Let's see how that goes, right.

(54:29):
It took me four years before I got my first compliment,
before I had explored myself as a writer in the
ways that we're meaningful to the audience, that we're engaging
to the audience, with the help, with the guidance, with
the mentorship of this editor, Dan Edelman. And I'll be
forever grateful to him that, you know, I had a

(54:52):
book that hit number three on Amazon. I'm really honored
that it would never have freaking happened and I've been
left to my own And what I want to say
is that don't be like me. Don't be both full
of your current capabilities. Don't assume that you can be
a bestseller in three months. Certainly ask a question, can I?

(55:15):
And if you hear something from an educated source like Craig,
like other resources we can introduce to you that suggests
you maybe you should rethink this, my gosh, honor that,
because we're all in a journey together where we end up,
how we live our life, how we rest ourselves in
peace at the end of it all. What we look

(55:36):
back on with pride reflects on the decisions we make,
and sometimes we're not fully equipped to make those decisions,
and we need resources. And the reason I joined this
podcast is Craig, I think is an excellent leum based
on an experience. So I hope all of you listening,
if you hear any signs that say to you, maybe

(55:56):
I should talk to Craig, because.

Speaker 1 (56:01):
Let's not hope too much. My hours are limited. I'm
still raising kids. They're in the other room right now.
As a matter of fact, I had to step in
here and have this wonderful conversation with you. I would
just say that also, tapping into our creativity, which is
your creator, which is magnificent and powerful, is so much

(56:25):
more powerful than anything you could go to outside of yourself.
It's limitless, The potency is limitless. So I encourage anyone
to really untap that and let it flow. It's just
tamped down by all this research you're doing outside of

(56:47):
yourself that all that's going to do is confirm some biases.
All that's going to do is is put you in
fear because the research they're doing a lot of it
has to do with they're protecting their self interest, so
they're gonna make sure you're afraid to even exist. Samined something, examine, examine,
examine inside of yourself, do an expedition and unearth that
stuff that's in there, that's building, that's to build up

(57:09):
in there. And there is such freedom. And that's the
thing is they act like the cult leaders act like
you're not free to begin with. Come on, she would say,
come on, mama's get your sovereign freedom. This is what
she would say. She was as free as a bird.
Get out of your golden cage. She was no golden cage.

(57:30):
There's no cage. It's an illusions. They say things, buzzwords
and things that just have people go, oh, wait a minute,
that sounds so good. And my husband or my wife
or whatever, my significant others, my family, they don't understand me.
They're not saying these words to me. Dig deeper, get
in there, have the courage, have the courage to change

(57:53):
the things you can. That's the serenity, prayer and the
wisdom to know the difference. I believe that you and
I are doing something that can make a difference. It
really has a result of shifts and changes and people
breaking out of these prisons that they're and that's the irony.
She says, it's a freedom. She's in a prison. Now

(58:14):
she's in a prison of hate and cruelty and darkness
and demonic. I think it's even demonic hate. To use
the word people had some other thing. People don't use
that word. No, I'm gonna use it. It's demonic. That's what
it feels like when you look into the eyes of
someone that was so loving and you just see vacuous

(58:35):
darkness with no pupils. It can shut off and disassociate
like that. That's programming. And I do believe in people.
I've already done interventions in my life. Get in there.
Here's what you could have. We love you. I say that.
Anyone who's in a cult, we love you, just tell

(58:59):
them that. And I do believe that's the pathway out.

Speaker 2 (59:03):
Hey man, brother, and I so value, I so appreciate,
I so respect the work that you're doing. Like you know,
understand how difficult this journey has been for you. And
to open up yourself to others in an effort to
help them is really the greatest gift you can give others.

(59:25):
So Man, thank you for what.

Speaker 1 (59:27):
You do and thanks, You're welcome. It's the motivation, it's
what keeps me going, I mean. And the other motivation
that's selfish is to have the mother of these children
extraordinary children. I mean, they're just so fun and funny
and filled with They're filled with something though that she

(59:48):
took away. Their inspiration has been taken away. I can't
convince them to go into sports again. They sleep a lot,
and I'm trying to have this other energy be more
their energy than the other than the quitting energy and
the you know, the blaming and the victim and all
that kind of stuff. I'm really doing my best to

(01:00:10):
bring that a matter of fact, got to conclude this
because I got to go to them right now. We
just did a high low when they came back and
they said, Craig, you're doing your podcast now. Okay, I'm
gonna go back to their high low. Their high low
today was they both didn't like the heat. There's a
lot of heat, no air conditioning, and the high was
their lunch time, which I got to explained to me,

(01:00:32):
which is interesting without screens to have that connection, the
divine connection as opposed to it, you know, internet connection,
which can always fail. Divine can That's my message anyway, Philip,
where can we find you? Can we find you anywhere?

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
And yeah, you know my podcast, I have books on Amazon.
That's not as important to me as it is to
support your mission, right. Thank you those who want to
search me, Philip Maco. You can find me online, beautiful.
What I care about is what you're doing. And I

(01:01:10):
really respect the mission that Jerine, that you're on and
thank you to be a part of it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
I appreciate it. By the way, I just got a
text message from listen to this on the on a
recovery aspect. One of the enemies. Her friend is now
starting to text me, and she's getting our daughters together.
When it used to be just she would only deal
with my ex wife lotus. Now it's a little friendly
text me. It's just almost you're coming over to my house.

(01:01:38):
The enemy, the illusion of an enemy, nobody really is.

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
And this is a step forward.

Speaker 1 (01:01:44):
Step forward, is exactly right. And all we have is
that we just have steps forward and our presence and
our mindfulness, which we got all right. Anyway, I hope
you all enjoyed this. Spread the word. Okay, it's called well,
you know what it's called. Well, you've joined Nicolets. It's
like a horror movie. Anyway, Thanks Philip, doctor you

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
M