October 18, 2024 • 60 mins
In Episode 18 of My Wife Joined a Cult, Craig sits down with Dr. Steven Hassan, a renowned cult expert and former member of the Unification Church, also known as the "Moonies." Dr. Hassan dives into the powerful mind control techniques cults use to recruit and retain members, sharing his personal story of indoctrination and escape. With over 40 years of experience in helping people break free from coercive groups, Dr. Hassan provides listeners with practical insights into the psychology of cults and the tools needed to protect themselves and loved ones. This is a must-listen for anyone curious about how cults operate and the journey to reclaim one’s freedom.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Okay, everybody, it's another episode of My wife Joined a Cult.
I love having guests, especially guests as renowned as this
with Steven Hassen. And I pronounced that correctly, right, Assen, yep, Assen. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
See.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
I have to do that because people call me Schumacher
and it drives me nuts. So you must be driven
just as nuts by Hassan.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Right as somebody calls you.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
That correct Assin, Hassen, Hassman. And then I tell producers
by the way it's pronounced Hassen. And then the guest,
the host comes on and this pronounces does it?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Yeah, exactly. I do my research, so I've got it Hassen. Okay.
So but and I'm so.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Happy to have you here because you are an expert
in cults, and I need an expert. I'm an expert
to be on the other side of a cult because
my wife left our marriage for a cult leader. And
you're very familiar with this kind of thing. Were you
in a cult yourself?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
I was recruited into a front group of the Moonies
called the Korean Messiah figure Sunmeng Moon back in nineteen
seventy four, when I was nineteen and a student a
Queen's College. My girlfriend had jumped me abruptly, and moony
(01:21):
women were flirting with me and lying and saying they
were students and they weren't. And I went into a
rabbit hole for two and a half years and then
nearly died in a van crash. Led to a voluntary deprogramming,
not because I wanted to leave or I had any doubts.
I had no doubts, but I wanted to prove to
(01:42):
my family I wasn't in a cult and I wasn't brainwashed.
So I agreed to meet. And then I learned about
Chinese communist brainwashing, and I was like, wow, those eight
criteria fit the family.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
It really is criteria that they all cult leaders use
the same methods, they all have the same methodology, and
and well this in this case, they used your vulnerability
with women. Am I correct in assuming that that that
you said they flirted with you, they offer you anything else? Yeah,
without all part of the program is there, We're going
(02:20):
to lure you in with sexuality.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
So first of all, let me just say that there
are many techniques for deceptively recruiting people into authoritarian cults,
but the key is that it's deceptive that you don't
know what you're getting into, and whether they overtly lie
(02:44):
or withhold vital information or distort it. The bottom line
is you don't have informed consent, which is a critical
variable for any healthy or organization or relationship. And let
me say that the word cult is a problematic word
(03:05):
because I think about cults along my influence continuum from
ethical to unethical, and I think there are cult groups,
but they're okay or healthy cults, and then they're authoritarian
mind control cults. So I'm worried about authoritarian cults where
(03:26):
they take people away from their ability to think for themselves,
have their own ideas, you know, reality testing, They isolate
people from family and friends who are critical, et cetera.
And so I think of China or Russia as an
authoritarian cult big one. But you can have a one
(03:49):
on one authoritarian relationship that's a cult of personality. So
my work spans forty eight years as a mental health
profession all written four books, three that are in print
or behind me. And it's been a journey, fascinating journey.
(04:10):
But public needs to understand this phenomenon. So I'm grateful
to you for doing a podcast to shed some light
and hopefully get people questioning and thinking and learning about
this stuff.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yeah, whether they're in one or whether there loved ones
are in one, we don't have the education. This isn't
something you study in school. I was familiar with it
because my dad had his own cult, so I was
familiar with it, and then my wife ends up following
another leader. I'm glad you said that it could be
one person with very few followers. It doesn't have to be,
(04:48):
you know, an entire country like you're talking of Russia
or China. This can be an individual thing where someone
just captures all common sense and even all love. I mean,
they adore this leader and they take it away from others.
For this adulation that takes place, I've never seen anything
like it actually.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Yeah, So for me, I want everyone to learn and
be preventively educated, or to use public health term inoculate
everybody so that they can reality test and avoid essentially
malignant narcissists. Turns out to be the stereotypical profile of
(05:33):
cult leaders. That term was invented by Eric from a
social psychologist who is trying to categorize Hitler, and he
was like, well, he's a narcissist, but he's more than
a narcissist. He thinks he's above the Lowy's a pathological liar,
he's sadistic, he's paranoid, you know, he's vengeful. So there's
(05:57):
a long list, and in fact him my latest book,
The Cult of Trump, which has just been re released
with a forward from George Conway and then afterward by myself,
I compare Trump with Jim Jones of the People's Temple,
Sun Myung Moon, my former cult leader, and Hubbard of Scientology.
(06:19):
They all have malignant narcissist characteristics.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
I have a few questions about this, and we're going
to dive into the book as well. Do malignant narcissists
exist to be the followers? Are the followers also narcissists?
That's what I'm finding right now. It's being discovered on
a daily basis. When I read memes or whatever discoveries
I have about the qualifications of a narcissist, I'm going, oh,
my god, this is my ex wife.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
It's like to the t.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Yet she has followed the other one, so they're almost
co cult leaders, although she actually she does not act
as the leader leader.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
She's kind of like a corporal. So but does that
exist as well?
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Do they unpack this idea? As a mental health professional,
I've been trained in developmental psychology, and I'll just say
that the latest theories about how a malignant narcissist gets
created goes back to the first two years of early
(07:25):
childhood and lack of what's called secure attachment, and so
there's not a healthy core self that is develops where
in a healthy parental relationship, the child feels loved and
their needs are taken care of, and they're fed when
(07:47):
they're hungry, they're change, they get you know, adequate sleep,
they're protected. But with insecure attachment, maybe the parent is
an alcoholic or occasionally pays attention but then doesn't, or
screams and yells and takes.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
It out, or a narcissist themselves.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Right exactly. So that's one piece I want to say.
But the other thing that I want your listeners to
understand is mind control is best understood as a dissociative disorder.
And to explain that, what I'd like to say is
explain it this way. That Steve Hassen, a Flushing Queens,
(08:32):
New York who liked to play basketball, wrote poetry like
girls and wanted to be an English professor. When I
met the Moonies, my identity was broken down and I
was programmed to be a new identity in the image
of Sun Young Moon. So there was like an old
(08:53):
Stephen who was Satanic and my parents were only my
physical parents, but the new Steve had Moon and his
wife is his true parents, and was told to be
like Moon, to think like Moon, feel like him, walk
like him, talk like him, and the close. And I
was made a leader very early on in my involvement
(09:16):
because they were looking for American front people. Not that
I had any power, but I got to be with
Moon in person a lot, and the closer I got
to him, the more narcissistic and malignant narcissistic I became.
So it's easy for outsiders to go Steve's a narcissist.
But if you knew me beforehand, I wasn't. I was
(09:39):
an introvert who was not interested in power or money
or fame or any of those things.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
But the cult me was That is fascinating because I
was She considers my ex wife considers herself an introvert,
so it's interesting and it's that vulnerability that they prey
upon because then they empower them. I'm sure you were empowered.
You're going to be a spokesperson in Unit.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
OH, a chosen leader. They're going to save humankind and
I'll run my own country one day when we take
over the world. And what's totally surreal and bizarre, Craig,
is that in nineteen seventy four I was in the
room with Sun Young Moon when he talked about how
(10:24):
democracy was satanic, that God wants a theocracy, that we're
going to infiltrate the government and take it over, and
that when we take over, will amend the constitution and
make it a capital offensive people violate the group's rules.
And now it's fifty years later and there are people
(10:46):
talking this talk about taking over the government, turning it
into a theocracy, destroying the separation of church and state,
getting rid of voting. And I'm like NP. People say,
but the Moonies, you don't hear about them anymore, And
I'm like, the Moonies have the Washington Times. His son
(11:09):
was at January sixth doing disinformation that it was Antifa.
They have a gun cult, saying that you need an
ar fifteen to worship God, and the other son has
a gun factory and what I learned I interviewed a
man with about his book. What I learned is the
(11:29):
Moonies have been the center for climate science denial for
fifty years.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
I did not know any of this. It's amazing and
you were part of this. Yes, I was sided, but
it took it took an accident for you to get
out of it.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Well, the accident led to the opportunity for my family
to rescue me, and, honestly, without my family's love and willingness,
to take a big risk to do something that was
basically illegal back in nineteen seventy to take away my
crutches because I had a big cast on my leg
(12:04):
from the accident, and hold me against my will at
least for twenty four hours until it became voluntary. It
was a big risk, but I love my family, They
loved me, and I wanted to prove to them I
wasn't in a cult. And that's another thing I want
your listeners to understand. When you're in a cult, you
(12:24):
don't think you're in a cult.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Yeah, I mentioned that before.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
I don't believe you've been brainwashed.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
There's no problem.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Everyone else has got the problem, but not me. My
group's good.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
There's not a single person who's in a cult that
will say I'm in a cult. Literally the definition is
lost on them.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Well, i'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna disagree with you
and tell you that some cults proudly say we're in
a cult. Really yes, actually, especially if there's been negative media,
it's like, yeah, we're in a cult, but you mean
like that, okay, yeah, yeah, But they don't understand what
(13:02):
brainwashing and mind control is. And I'll just say that
what helped me were former military intelligence experts studying Chinese
communist brainwashing in the fifties. Robert J. Liften wrote thought
Reform in the Psychology of Totalism, where he outlined eight
criteria in chapter twenty two that any environment maybe judges
(13:27):
a brainwashing environment. That's the book that was used in
my deprogramming. That was like, we do all of those.
But Margaret Singer was another expert, Lewis West Edgar Shine.
So back when I got out in seventy six, the
standard was Chinese communist brainwashing. But what's happened over the
(13:49):
decades is there's more and more sophisticated understanding about how
the mind works, about social psychology, about neuroscience, and now
with the digital world, the social media, it's called manetic
warfare is taking place on people's minds through their cell
(14:10):
phones and their computers, and the public doesn't get what
is actually happening to.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Probably worse now than it was in the seventies when
you were part of the moon it is.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
It's far worse. It's global, it's far reaching.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Now, they're their messaging can be far reaching. It's not
like you probably had to go to some meetings, you
had to go over to back or wherever he was to.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Be with him. Now here we are.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
You and I are on a zoom together, right, Yeah,
that's how they That's how they. I can, I can
brainwash you right now.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
You're you're you're absolutely correct. And I'll just add that
back when I was a recruiter for the Moonies, I
had to elicit personal information from the people I was
trying to recruit by asking questions about their family, their
brothers and sisters, What do their parents do to find
(15:04):
out what buttons to push to motivate them to get
into the cult.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
To find the buttons, that's the whole key, is the vulnerability.
What buttons did you have that, They pressed what kind
of vulnerable?
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Let me let me just finish the thought and then
I'll answer your question and say back then it was
person to person asking questions. Now with data mining, because
the United States doesn't have any privacy laws for our
digital information and because of all the hacking that's been happening,
(15:38):
there is an estimated five thousand data points on every
voting American in the dark Web, and they have supercomputers
and AI where they can profile you to know which
buttons to push with algorithms. It's not even needed that
to ask people directly to tell me about your childhood.
(16:01):
They already know which buttons to push. Now back to
my story. What buttons did they push? Well, initially the
main button was horniness. I was eighteen and I liked
girls and I liked sex.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
And they had some bodies they had to Did they
have the shaved head with the did you have to
do that?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
As well? Did you do this?
Speaker 3 (16:24):
No? That was the Hari Christianism and some Buddhist cults.
Now the Moonies were more like look like young Republicans
that we wore three piece suits and had short hair.
I had a ponytail when I was recruited that had
to go, and I wore dungarees and work boots. They went.
(16:45):
But the other button that was pushed for me was
was like being told that I had a much greater
purpose in my life than writing poetry and being an
English professor. And I was not someone I grew up Jewish,
I was not someone interested in joining groups or changing
(17:08):
my religion at all. But the idea that the world
was messed up because it was in the seventies. I
was in the last draft lottery to go to Vietnam,
for example. So I grew up at the end of
the Vietnam War. I knew the world was messed up.
I knew pollution was a problem back then too. And
(17:32):
he was a group of people who talked confidently with
certainty that they knew what to do that would fix everything.
And do I want to be in on this unique
knowledge and be part of this unique group that's going
to save the world, and that.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Is also peace and love oriented as opposed to the
cult of war, which is the opposite.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Yeah, absolutely, I'm a kid.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
I'm going to go fight this stupid war. You probably
knew it was at the time.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Yeah, And I had no idea that a gun factory
in Korea at the time, much less that the Sun's
and Moon would make their own gun factories in the
United States.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Idea, because you thought they were about peace and love
and they're having these mass weddings and things.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
From what I remember.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Yeah, So a thing that I like to teach people
about is that if you're not asking really direct consumer
critical questions like who is your founder, what is his
or her credentials to found this organization? Like what's expected
(18:45):
of me if I go to this meeting? Are you
trying to recruit me? You know? Are you trying to
get me to go to a workshop or donate my
money or give up my time or cut me off
from my family or my education. Asking those direct questions,
they may still lie and look you straight in the
(19:07):
eye and lie, but at some early point you'll realize
they lied. And that's the moment. As soon as you
realize the first lie, get the hell out of there.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Don't buy into the justifications and all of the distractions
and the love bombing and all of that. If something's legitimate,
it will stand up to scrutiny, it will invite your questions,
it will show itself to be accountable and responsible, and
if it's a lie, get the hell away, because.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
It's it's tough to do that.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
If people need love, you probably needed love maybe where
you're not getting it at home as much as you'd
want a little rebellious No.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Not really, I was. I've worked with a lot of
families in the last forty eight years, and I look
back at my family and it was like boringly normal family.
My parents lived in the same house, they married as virgins.
They weren't drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes, gambling, having affairs. My
(20:12):
father had a hardware business. My mom was an art
teacher in Brooklyn in eighth grade. I have two young
two older sisters, and it was just like, you know,
they were consistent, they were loving. I had a great childhood.
But another interesting point in terms of explaining brainwashing, was
part of the brainwashing was making me believe I had
(20:35):
a terrible childhood.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
That's interesting.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
My family was horrible.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
I just read a post from my ex wife and
she literally says I had everything, and she said husband
didn't and she says and even a dog, but it
wasn't enough. And I think they prey upon that little
inkling of Is there more out there? Should I be
more fulfilled? Is this too normal? Is this not normal?
I mean all of those things. I guess that's what
(21:02):
they're they're shooting for. They're they're looking for that one
little opening that you might have.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Well, So the universal with humans, Craig is we either
can be motivated towards a positive or away from a negative.
So if somebody says I'm in a bad marriage, right,
they may want to get out of the marriage. If
someone says I'm looking for love, I'm looking for an
(21:29):
ideal partner, and then they can offer you that. I
know nothing about your ex wife and the cult, and
I don't know if you are willing to talk about it,
but I'm definitely curious.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Oh my god, are you kidding me? That's what this
is all about.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
I'm also trying to tell me what happened with your wife.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Well, she connected with this woman I call her broke.
I use code names, and my wife ex wife I
call lotus. These are code names.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
So are you are you trying to avoid being suit
or you know?
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (22:01):
I mean, you know whatever, I mean, I'll probably come
out with it and people ask me. I tell them
that a lot of people know already because they know
I was married to and all that, and they know
who she follows. She's very out with who she follows.
And it's even more she's doubling and tripling down.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
On the person's followed.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
No, it's it's a very it's a very small cult.
She she tells women to get their sovereign freedom. She's
this egomaniac. Come on, mamas, get out of here. She
calls them mamas. She only prays upon middle aged women
who have children, and that's that's that's her niche.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
And she recruits online.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Yeah, well this was live and in person. I actually
introduced them years before she first scammed us on an
insurance thing. Then do these multi level marketing things, wells.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Doctors, there's MLMs are cults in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Right, and and there's nobody monitoring them. There's no there's
They just go ever. I watch her lie to people directly,
and I'm telling flat out lies creating wealth for women.
I was, okay, then you pay me child support, you
know what I mean? Like, if you're making all this money,
there's the proof, and it's just a flat out lie.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
I call her on it.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
She just runs from me. They always run from the truth.
I'm such a fiend. The truth is a fiend of
these people. So I think a lot of times they
get recruited. We paint red flags green. I painted them green.
I never thought that this woman could do this to her,
I would say in the beginning, For she was in
one cult that she brought her into by the way,
she brought her into another one, and it's a group
(23:31):
of women, and.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
It's she, meaning the cult leader, got your wife into
a cult, and then into a second cult, and.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
That one, and that one my ex wife admitted to
being in.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
That one got has forgot me, I say, us, I
pay all the bills eighty grand for that one. All
these investments in soap and products and yeared a millionaire,
all these scams and skims.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Oh so multi level marketing.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
For sure, yes, exactly where you know the one who
benefits is at the top. Well, this one and finally
left the other one that broke left the other one,
Raven was her name.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
So she then starts her own thing.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
And it started with mommy minutes, and it goes to soap,
then it goes to crypto, all these things, and she's
always at there and she and she everything she posts
is full confidence and it doesn't matter. She posted about
this one. I really got suspicious. They went to Australia together.
They did some dance for freedompreneurs. Freedompreneurs and they did
(24:29):
some dance, just this egomaniacal dance. They studied the dance.
She would leave the family to go up north to
study this dance. It's it's like, what is this not business?
I don't see Elon Musk doing a dance, you.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Know, don't get me started on Elon who whoever.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
I'm saying, I'm trying to come up with somebody that's
really successful, Mark Cuban or wherever it is. Business people
don't act like this. And now she got her into
b DSM. Do you know what BDSM is?
Speaker 3 (24:57):
Bondage and discipline And stayed on.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
The M dominance And so then she first started posting
and I said, and we were married at the time.
I said, my god, she's she's like humiliating her husband
like she says I cheated on them. I got out
at one at the four in the morning and I
was dominated by this man. And she poses all these
looks like only fans. They have little she has little kids.
(25:20):
They could read this, but it's so egomaniacal that my
wife at the time thought nothing of it.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
And now she's doing this. She followed her.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Now they have a podcast about the BDSM, so humiliate
our children even more, and they.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Just don't stop.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
You have children, we have.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Young children together and now I'm a single dad. But
it's which is really she just blew up the whole thing.
She she stole money, she changed the password. They'll do anything.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
They have no.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Justify the means.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
They have no morals, no values, and they follow no
higher source power, God, whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
They have none of that. They follow whatever.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
The latest emotional reasoning is for this woman to spout off,
here's my latest. And now, by the way, today it's
honor your man because she found a man though the
leader did. And then of course my ex wife followed suits.
She's posing with her man. Now you know some guy
she meets in Colorado. And that's the thing is they
(26:23):
they just they prey upon other vulnerable women who are
in a place of you know, they could be a menopause,
a mid life crisis, they could be bored. She was
basically saying bored, well, put yourself into the marriage is
But my theory is like put more into it and
then see if you're bored, especially exactly exactly so the
(26:43):
kids aren't first in these cults. The one that broke
that leader, her kid didn't speak to her for a
whole year. And I'm like, you know to my ex
wife and going, can you look at these things? Can
you just But they can't look, they can't see, you know,
the street.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
So the thing is is that mind control isn't one
hundred percent, that the person's authentic self is still there.
That's the hopeful message, and that if people are not
isolated and a lot of people are on in silos
(27:19):
on the internet where they're not getting information about other
cults and learning about the Byte model, which is my
model of how to analyze for yourself if you're undermind control,
looking at behavior control, information control, thought control, and emotional control.
(27:40):
I did a whole TEDx talk on how to reality
test for yourself and the first step is always step
away from what you're into. I take a time out, unplug,
stop the constant reinforcement and indoctrination. Step two is learn
(28:02):
authoritarian mind control models. I recommend lifting, which helped me
and my byte model. It's on my website freedomomind dot com.
You can literally go through the laundry list the variables,
and we're about to release a website where people can
do an evaluation, a scientific evaluation of how authoritarian their
(28:26):
relationship or group is. So then then once you've studied that,
then seek out critics and X members and experts and
hear what they have to say, because if you're convinced
you're not brainwashed, you can discern whether there's facts, whether
there's substance for yourself. That's my argument.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah, it's suppose.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Right deep down, do you think that she does know?
Do you think she I mean, I make her way.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
I think there's a real self that that was a
normal person that got co opted and taken over. But
as I got out of the Moonies, I needed the
right conditions to be able to and the accident got
me away from the cult. I was sleeping three to
(29:16):
four hours a night. Now I'm in the hospital for
two weeks, sleeping most of the day and night, so
like my body was healing and I was just away
from the constant doctrination.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah, and if I may one of the things that
prevents her from even any of this research is pride.
It's actually pride. It's backwards in a backwards way caused
you to examine. It's like, I'm going to prove that
I'm not in a court.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Well, that's why I'm sharing my story because I think
it really fits for a lot of people to be like,
if you're so sure that you're not brainwashed, do the
reality testing. So take a time out, get away from
this woman, this group, this constant stuff on the way
your phone, like, stop all of that. Study The byte
(30:04):
model of mind control you can read Combat and Cult
mind Control, which is still in circulation and it's helped
people around the world in many languages to reality test.
Talk to x MLM experts or groups like the one
that you were in, and then reflect back before you
(30:27):
met the group, What did you believe was going to
happen if you went to that first seminar, read that
first book, or donated that first amount of money? What
did you think and think about where you're at now?
And if you knew then what you know now, would
you have ever said yes? And it's that question that
(30:50):
turns on a lot of light bulbs in people's minds
or like yeah, because I asked the women who were
flirting with me, are you part of a religious group?
Oh no, not at all. Are you students here? Oh? Yes,
they weren't. And if I go back to that moment
and go, if I knew then what I know now, what,
(31:11):
I've invited them to sit at my table to recruit me.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
No, I would have told him to fuck off.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Sorry, I would have told him to get lost. I
would have called security. Right. So the point is is
there's an exit ramp for everybody. Nobody's perfect. People can
be deceived. Their minds can be hacked, just as someone
can be deceived to click on a link and it
takes over your computer and you have to hire an
(31:42):
expert or you have to get anti malware software to
get rid of the malware. There's exit to freedom, but
it's up to each individual to take look in the
mirror and take responsibility for their lives.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
And there's the rub.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
If they're not willing to do that, there's no willingness
on her part.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
She's in complete denial.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
So she's not willing to you because you're the enemy.
And that's the other thing I want to say, is
that anyone who's your ex husband, wife, family, any friend
that said you're in a cult or you're a brainwashed
You're labeled as evil and you're trying to suppress them,
you're trying to take away their spirituality or whatever. It's like.
(32:25):
Get out of that binary all or nothing, us versus them,
good versus evil frame and take a frame of hey,
we're all humans. Nobody knows the truth with a capital T,
and let's reality test, you know, because we don't want
to be in a situation where we're going, what did
(32:46):
I do to my kids? You know? What did I
do to my husband and me?
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Shaming her isn't going to help. It's going to make it.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
It's going to prolong her involvement unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
The river and I realize I've done so many times.
I mean even this morning, I was texting her basically saying,
do you have any shame whatsoever for what you've done?
I mean, and I think the opposite reaction is what
takes place.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
She's going to double down. They threaten to take my.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Kids away, the cult leaders, I mean, this is I mean,
there's little stuff that's illegal that they do that they
don't have no conscience, that's so they stop from a
place of we're helping people.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
That's how my what's.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
My advice is stop doing what you know is counterproductive,
even though it may feel good at the moment for
you to text like that. I wrote a whole book
called Freedom of Mind, How to help a loved one
with controlling people, cults and beliefs, And there's a strategy
(33:45):
of dos and don't like. For example, never attack the leader,
the doctrine, or the policy head on, because if you're attacking,
it's going to activate the cult identity to get defensive
and see you as evil. So you never attack, but
you can ask questions with a respectful, curious approach. And
(34:11):
here's the critical thing that I teach people is think
back to your wife, did you ever watch a documentary
together about Scientology or raj Niche or one of these
other cult groups. Lulu Rich is a documentary on an
MLM cult that's set up by Mormons. So you pick
(34:35):
other things to talk about as being mind control cults,
not what they're into, but this, and then ask them questions,
what do you think of the fact that this person
gave all their money and now they're broke, and what
do you think I'm just curious.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Well, I can actually use personal examples because she does
admit to the first cult that this woman brought her to.
She admits to that they stole money from me, it
was used, and.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Then apply the bite model to the first cult.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
What's that?
Speaker 3 (35:05):
Apply my bite model to the first cult?
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Well, here's the thing, is anything coming out of me?
Let me ask you about this. I remember her saying
the words that she didn't believe in interventions. I do
believe in interventions. It's been I've been I've been part
of interventions, drug and alcohol, not this kind of thing, right,
So she puts that in her mind, I don't believe
in interventions. So we're already it's already difficult. But is
there a world this is? I keep dreaming. I think
(35:29):
you have these dreams of how do we get through.
I'm sure you understand my frustration. It's really difficult.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
I've been helping people for forty eight years.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Okay, so you know you get it.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
So my question is do I gather some friends and
give them the information because she has it out there
that she's this hippie, this really sweet person. Meanwhile, the
kids have all witness she's violent, she's a horrible temper,
she shuts things out, she's a thief, she's stolen a
million dollars from me, And.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
People, how old are your kids?
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Ten in fifteen and they're they're way behind getting mommy
back to reseat.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Well, the fifteen year old is old enough for sure
to educate about cults and mind control. And so my
book Freedom of Mind basically advocates what I've learned is
the most effective approach. I call it the strategic interactive approach,
because I don't like the term deprogramming. It's too mechanical
(36:26):
and we're not computers, and it brings up images from
the seventies when I was deprogrammed, where I was held
against my will. The strategic approach, you gather family members, friends,
ex members of other groups, and you make a team
and you educate them and they can each interact. But
(36:50):
not for you to empower your ex wife to think
for herself. That's the key. It's influence. To empower people
to think for themselves, not to tell them what to think,
not to program them with an ideology, but to encourage
them to reality tests and think for themselves. And in
(37:13):
chapter ten of the Freedom of Mind, book, I have
a three step phobia intervention. It turns out that phobias
are the universal mind control technique that cult leaders use.
And what I mean by phobia is it's an irrational fear,
not a legitimate fear where there's actual danger, but an
(37:36):
irrational fear that if you question the leader or leave
the group, terrible things are going to happen.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Yeah, that's to you. She's afraid of her leader.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
So in your mind, when you're under mind control, you
can't imagine leaving the group and being happy and fulfilled.
You can't. You can only generate negative images in your mind. Mind.
But learning about how to discern what's an actual danger
and what a phobia is and how other cults use
(38:10):
phobia indoctrination like MLMs. They tell people that if you
get a job, you're a failure. Yeah, you know that
you have to be an independent business person and then
you're a success. So they put all these fear of
failure in people's minds, that if they quit the cult
(38:31):
or the pyramid scheme, they're a failure. The opposite, it's like, no,
I got free, thank you very much, and I'm back
to the real world. The iron I can.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Yeah, the iron is they pitch freedom. I remember one
of her common phrases from the leader was sovereign freedom. Mamas,
come on and get out of your golden cage. She
called it a golden cage because I'm the breadwinner. And
of course there's a lot of the in the feminine cults.
I'm sure familiar with those as well, with the toxic femininity,
(39:03):
where it's a divine feminine they call it. They have
all these this terminology, soul sisters and all this. It's
basically to say there's another cult going. I love to
discuss with you. Men are not needed. Men are not needed,
and you must get your freedom from the golden cage
that he has you in. There's an illusion. They create
these illusions exactly. Yeah, they're based they're based on, you know,
(39:26):
some things that were true back in the fifties or
whatever it was, or maybe even true today. Certainly not
the case here, but she's convinced that it was the case.
And then you have the women that collude with this.
They literally have women's groups, they call them women's groups.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Yeah, and I'm sure yes.
Speaker 3 (39:44):
But for me, I'm about empowering people to have an
internal locus of control in their own body. Yeah, with
anybody or any group. So the framing, as you were
describing it, is get free from your husband or from
the golden cage. But I would say to people listening
(40:06):
who are in this group that your wife is involved with,
reclaim your personal power. Reflect on all the times you
were told to do things that you didn't want to do,
but you did it because this other person told you
it would be good for you or important for you
to do, and ask yourself, was that really my choice
(40:29):
or was I being coerced to believe this or do this?
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Yeah, these are all great questions.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
If somebody's willing, that's the whole key is is she
willing the answers obviously No.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
At this point, it's to get to that school.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
No to you, but not necessarily no to somebody else
who's approaching her in a more respectful, curious way. But
you're you're demonized, So you're like, I would recommend stop
messaging her other than I love you and I wish
the best for you.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Yeah, I've actually done that. I went through phases of that.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
Today.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
I admitted that I have a person that I go
to for my spiritual growth, and he really does keep
me in that vibration of love and service. And I
admitted to him today, you know the stages of grief.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
I'm in anger today. Sure, I'm in anger.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
I just watched these posts that she has absolutely full
of it, complete.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Lies, and I actually I.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Go in there by the way, on all my different accounts,
and I tell people the truth of who she is.
And she has fewer and fewer people that follow her,
but even the ones that do, it's all about praise.
I think that that's a part of cults too. Is
they praise you? They put these women who recruited you
into the Moonies, they probably praise you handsome and well yeah,
(41:50):
love bombing.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:53):
So is it inappropriate for me to ask who you're
going to for advice? Or do you want to not
be public?
Speaker 2 (42:00):
I am the biggest open book.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
And I was about to say, there's one source of
pride I have. I really try to remove myself from ego.
I'm listening to everything you say, for instance, and with
absolute openness and and and ego list to say, oh no,
I'm going to keep going. No, not right to do
what I do, not right to do the messaging you're
letting me know that you reflect it back and I
do listen to it. Now, will I heed the call?
(42:23):
Once in a while I might slip. This guy keeps
me in a point where I don't slip as much.
He really does the reminders. He really keeps me in
a very I call it vibration. He keeps me in
a very high vibration. And you're ask me who he is?
Speaker 3 (42:38):
Yeah, you want to share his name or rather not?
Speaker 1 (42:41):
No, of course, I'm I'm a transparent, open book. If
there's anything I'm proud of in my life, it's that
I am transparent and okay, fully honest, let me have it.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
His name's Achille Beckworth. He's the brother of a guy
who leads a spiritual center.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
I go beck with, what's that?
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Michael beckwith, Yes, So it's his brother who is just
so it's just incredible that the place that he brings
me to, which is love and service, and that's where
I want to be.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
I want to be. I want to be I'm.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
All for that. I practice that, and but I want
to say that it's okay to have an ego. And
I think when people say they want to be ego less,
that's where they can really get into trouble because it's
our self that can also exercise critical thinking and go,
(43:36):
wait a minute, this doesn't sound right.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Absolutely yeah, right.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
So I think you want to have a healthy sense
of self that's oriented to growth, to hearing different points
of view. I definitely believe in the importance of being
in your body and we're not just floating out in
hypnotic vibration land. And I do believe in vibrant I mean, what.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
About what about God, higher source, higher power?
Speaker 2 (44:05):
I'm a big Wayne Dyer guy. What about that?
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Well, I believe in God. I'm part of a Jewish
community for twenty six years, and I pray, and I meditate,
and I dovin and I do yoga and other things.
But I also am open to always reality testing and
staying in my lane of you know, what I know
(44:33):
to be true. I never lie. A long time ago
I realized that this life's complicated enough and just be honest.
And if you don't want to say something, don't say it.
But if you're going to say, don't lie. So what
I want to.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
I just think for me, what's worked. I can only
go by my experience in life. My experience in life
is former drug addict, alcoholic, right, And it took I didn't.
Speaker 3 (45:02):
Know that about you. I'm just meeting you for the
first time exactly.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Well, it took this higher consciousness God. It took that
to relieve me where I can be sober for decades
later and also live a life where I understand that.
That's what it's about, is turning it over to this
higher source and surrender ego, which people say is edging
(45:26):
God out. And that's what I'm saying when I talk
about ego is, of course, we have to have some
healthy ego or we can't exist. There has to be
some self confidence or we can't exist. I couldn't be successful.
I became very, very successful and from nothing and literally nothing,
including spirit and God and so forth. I was just
raised almost latch key, no father, no influences, but all
(45:50):
my influencers were they were not going to serve me well,
leading the point of suicide attempt and alcoholism and drug
addiction and crime. And some of this, by the way,
is almost karmic. When she does these things, I go, Okay,
you did that too, So I get into space up again.
This is God forgiveness, forgive myself and then forgive her.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
Yeah, it's a good practice, and I would just encourage
you to move out of anger and maybe hopelessness that
she's going to be out of this and back to
her true self. But I do believe that she will.
Oh do you I really do? You know? We're just
mind control is not one hundred percent, and people leave
(46:36):
colts even after forty fifty sixty years. But they need
to have a welcome. They need to know that they
can leave and be you know, accepted and loved and
forgiven for the terrible things they said and did when
they were, you know, off their rocker. Yeah, I was
(46:58):
off my rocker. I was a right wing fascist, willing
to murder millions of people, and I was educated about
the Holocaust as a child. I was like totally hacked.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
And by the way, there's another example of I'm sure
you talked about this in your book, the Cult of
Trump and what happened in Nazi Germany. He went right
down the line. He did exactly what cult leaders do.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
You know.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
First of all, they went for the you know, you've
got to take out the media, You had to take
out the scenting voices. You have to you demonize those
who come against you. There's a whole pattern that they do.
I'm lucky. It's like I feel like I'm lucky.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
I really do. I feel like I'm one of the
lucky ones.
Speaker 3 (47:39):
It Really being grateful is the best spiritual practice of
all time.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Yeah, that's one of my principles I live by by
the way I teach something. I teach the alchemy of
laughter that laughter is like a god source. And the
acronym I use is love, because everything's about love. You
center everything in love. Even great sitcoms, it's all based.
The best sitcoms are love at the base. Acceptance. What
you don't accept, that's the A and that's where conflict
(48:06):
comes in. But if you have love at the base,
it's okay. Uniqueness that's the you. How are you unique?
We're all unique, everybody's unique. Really dive into what makes
you unique and it makes you fun and more interesting
and compelling. And then of course then I get to
the G. And the G is gratitude. If you're not grateful,
you're entitled. People don't want to be around it. It's
a bad energy to have. Age is humility. That's where
(48:28):
you just like admit all your rumbles stumbles, fumbles, crumbles
and tumbles, which I'm always willing to do. I admit
it here today with you. T is truth without truth
is God. Truth is inevitable. It's inevitable that you get
to the truth. But get to there faster and you'll
be much happier. E is ego Watch where your I
(48:49):
just think it's evading growth opportunity, is what I say.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
Ego is I'm evading my own growth opportunity.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
If I stay in that ego, stay in being right
and stay come on, people collude with me, believe me.
I don't even have this podcast because I want people
to believe me. I want people to really have their
minds open to There's the cult of even alcoholism, because
you could lose somebody at alcoholism and they're in the
same denial. Somebody's in a cult. Absolutely, And the r
(49:16):
and laughter is rejoice, reboot, refresh, rejuvenate, all those rewords.
We get to have another chance all the time. We
get to reset, every single moment we can reset. I'm
resetting here with you. I'm getting down.
Speaker 3 (49:29):
Wonderful man. I congratulate you. And the most powerful way
to teach is to model your teaching. Yeah, sounds like
you're wanting to, you know, live the walk, you know, Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
Do what I do with my slips. And that's why
I have you. I've got you know, Achille, and I've
got whoever. It was reminders that I'm willing my friend Pat,
that I'm willing to listen and not have my ego stroked.
And that's another thing with cults that I've noticed this
leader they stroke on another. It's a praise thing. And
then I watched the one about One is Love. Did
(50:05):
you see that on HBO? That's another cult thing.
Speaker 3 (50:07):
I haven't seen that one yet. I've seen so many documentaries.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
I love them. I love them, by the way, I'm
so fascinating.
Speaker 3 (50:14):
But most of them, though, are trauma porn in my mind,
and they're not teaching people what they actually need to
learn about.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
Then that's that's right, Stephen. Do you mind if I
call you Steven or Steve.
Speaker 3 (50:26):
Would call me Steve is fine, Steve.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
That's exactly why I have this. This is not porn
for people that want more tragedy. They want to hear
about more crazy stories.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
I understand. I've got plenty of them.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
The things that she's done, it's it's unbelievable, unconscionable, some
of the things that she's done. She's even had me arrested,
that's how far she went. She's the violent one, had
me arrested, because they're going to arrest a big dude.
Speaker 2 (50:50):
They're not going to rest this hippie chick. And you well,
she prays upon all of these things.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
She knows society how society is definitely going to go
towards the woman who's the peaceful woman. She's the mother,
she's the mother of the children. Even but you know,
he's aware of what's going on.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
Though.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
This is I love this, This is what I do
love about how I'm raising the children. The children definitely
gravitate towards me. And they're sweet, and they're spiritual, and
they're good kids. They're really really good kids. And they
I said, I said to my son, and go, what
are you going to tell your spouse someday of why
your mom and dad divorced? She says, because mommy was brainwashed.
(51:31):
They're both really really clear on it.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
We'll have them read Combat and Cult Mind Carol or
listen to it, and it's going to help them honestly
know better how to and and they they can interact
with her too, if in a way that when they
ask her, hey, Mommy, I'm reading this book. I'd like
(51:53):
you to read it and we can talk about it.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
And have them be the messenger. Because she loves she
loves her children, There's no question about it.
Speaker 3 (52:01):
Parental love is a deep, deep, deep thing. I mean,
we know from people's temple and this Culton Africa where
people were starving their kids to death because they were
following a prophet quote unquote Mackenzie who is telling them
God told them to do this. But a parent's love
(52:21):
for their child is often the way out of mind
control cults.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
This is what I count on actually, and I have
my kids seeing Achille as well. By the way, I'm
just looking for some solutions. It's why have you. I
have other guests. I have another guest, a friend of mine.
His sister's Lori Valo, and if you know her story,
she killed her two kids.
Speaker 3 (52:42):
I'm afraid. I was interviewed about Lorii Valo and the
Mormon preppers. I've done a lot of work with former Mormons,
former Jehovah's Witnesses, and other groups that the public doesn't understand.
These are authoritarian mind control call.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
I'm so glad you bring it up. I'm really I
applaud you for doing it. You're brave to do it
because I know they're not fans of yours.
Speaker 3 (53:08):
No, but you know I'm an equal opportunity freedom of
mind promoter. So I think most even cult members know
that I'm not just opposing them. I'm opposing lots of
other really bad groups, for example, with cults of Trump.
(53:28):
You know, people, I say, don't you agree Chinese communists
are doing brainwashing on the wigers and on their people.
Oh yes, so that it's an opportunity to teach them
about the byte model or pimps and traffickers. People in
MAGA are against pimps and traffickers. Well, let's talk about
(53:50):
how traffickers groom people and how they give them a
new identity and b ite so they'll listen as long
as you're not a attacking head on.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1 (54:03):
And I used to be a big anti Trump person
and I did that, and I actually, honest and frank again,
I left the left because I found this attack model
which you're talking about. I found it to be counterproductive, ridiculous,
and then I found it to be also ironic and hypocritical.
So as I'm attacking them, I'm in a group where
I find liberals to be compassionate, empathetic. This is who
(54:27):
I want to be. That's who I want to be
in life. Not that way anymore. My people have turned
into those people. So I'm right here, centered, literally centered
in this place where I can observe it all, check
it all out. I've actually gotten to know the whole
Trump mentality. Now I'm not going to just go knocking him.
(54:48):
And by the way, people have literally disowned me because
I went on Laura Trump's podcast because I.
Speaker 2 (54:54):
Want to know.
Speaker 1 (54:54):
You want to know your enemy, if they're your enemy,
you also want to know who a person is like,
what motivates them, Why would they be part of this?
Speaker 2 (55:03):
Let's see.
Speaker 3 (55:04):
I go on podcasts. I was on Megan Kelly, Joe
Rogan if people ask me to be on. But I
want to make an important point. I know we're getting
towards the end of our time. But my take, and
what I wrote in the Cult of Trump, is that
we're in an age of psychological warfare. I agree China, Russia, Iran,
(55:30):
North Korea, Christian nationalists who are pushing a mythology that
America is a Christian nation and we should abolish the
separation of church and state. There are fossil fuel countries
and corporations doing disinformation. And what my take is that
(55:51):
the left has been infiltrated and the right to make
them more extreme, to create more chaos. But the main
the seventy eighty percent in the middle who are like centrists,
who are like, can't we just get along together? Quiet though,
(56:12):
But that's the thing. They operate and control a lot
of the noise. But I'm in the middle too, and
I'm critical of the authoritarianism on the left or the right,
and I say, I'm just anti authoritarian. It's no longer
left and right for me. I'm just anti authoritarian. By
(56:32):
the way, China is authoritarian left, communists, left right. It's like,
let's get back to human rights, the Universal Declaration of
Human Rights. Let's talk about love, let's talk about freedom,
let's talk about women's rights, gay rights, indigenous rights.
Speaker 1 (56:54):
It's unity that we are all one on this planet.
We are not separate. We are all with this gigantic
higher source. You can call God light whatever you want.
I call it laughter, levity, light.
Speaker 3 (57:07):
And I'll and I'll label Iron Rand and the extreme
libertarians who are teaching selfishness is good and altruism is
evil and social darwinism. If you have more money than
you're a better person, that's bs. Of course, that's just
that's cult thinking. And it's like.
Speaker 1 (57:28):
Real, I know we're concluding, I wish you lived here.
I go, I go for a walk with you. I would,
I would, I could. I could do this all day long.
Speaker 3 (57:36):
Are you in l A?
Speaker 2 (57:37):
Yes? I love people that it's it's it's divine connection.
It's a theory.
Speaker 3 (57:41):
Oh I come to l A. I'm I just moved
to Northampton from Newton, Massachusetts, but I travel a lot
and and uh, we need more good people who care
and who are not hiding and are willing to just
put out constructive messages. So when you your producer reached
(58:02):
out and said, hey, I'm a comedian, would you come
on my thing? I'm like, okay, but what I had
no idea what what cult your wife was in or whatever?
Speaker 2 (58:12):
And good and I came in blank too.
Speaker 1 (58:14):
I know your books, but I wanted this to be
a blank slack and it will.
Speaker 3 (58:18):
I invite you to check them out. Oh, my podcast down.
Speaker 1 (58:22):
I will definitely check them out. Oh I wanted to
ask you, are they an audiobook?
Speaker 2 (58:26):
Because that's yes, they're all on audio. Oh that's great.
I'm going to do it immediately.
Speaker 3 (58:30):
Is. I hired someone else to read Combating, and then
I was asked by Simon and Schuster to read The
Cult of Trump. So I went into the studio. I'm like,
I like this and I like that it's in my voice.
Speaker 2 (58:44):
Oh good, Yeah, I liked my words. It's your words.
Speaker 3 (58:47):
And I did Freedom of Mind and my voice too,
so and I thank you for inviting me. And freedomomind
dot com is my website. I have a substack a
podcast for ted x Talks.
Speaker 2 (59:01):
I love it well.
Speaker 1 (59:02):
One of my goals is I believe that people were
comedians are great truth tellers. We are the last bastion,
and yet they're trying to take us away. You know
that with all the cancel culture and all that goes
on and the sensitivity, it's we're overdoing it now. The
pendulum has swung way too far. We're here to remove
the curtain, the Wizard of Ours. We're here to show
(59:24):
you who's behind that curtain. And people are so frightened
of that they they'll try to take us down. But
the problem with a lot of comedians is they don't
realize how spiritual they are by telling the truth. They
don't realize that is God's work when you're telling the truth.
So they're very cynical and cut off. And then spiritual
people I find have to you know, go through all
the all the mechanisms and you know, the no mistay
and all the things that they've learned and all that
(59:44):
kind of stuff. So they're very serious. So I want
to build a bridge from the woo woo to the
ha ha.
Speaker 2 (59:51):
Great, and you're.
Speaker 3 (59:52):
Part of that. I love that. Thank you for having
me on.
Speaker 2 (59:56):
You're the best. All right, Thank you, and we can
find you at do site.
Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
Is freedomomind dot com and my cult expert on social
media platforms.
Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
Thanks great, guys, thank you for thank you for being
part of this.
Speaker 3 (01:00:11):
All right.
Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
That's going to conclude it. That's a Stephen Hassan, I
said it right, Go follow him.
Speaker 1 (01:00:17):
Keep following us, give us a like, give us a follow,
and you see, we're about solution.
Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
Everybody. Let's all get into solution together. We are all one.
See you next time.
Okay, everybody, it's another episode of My wife Joined a Cult.
I love having guests, especially guests as renowned as this
with Steven Hassen. And I pronounced that correctly, right, Assen, yep, Assen. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
See.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
I have to do that because people call me Schumacher
and it drives me nuts. So you must be driven
just as nuts by Hassan.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Right as somebody calls you.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
That correct Assin, Hassen, Hassman. And then I tell producers
by the way it's pronounced Hassen. And then the guest,
the host comes on and this pronounces does it?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Yeah, exactly. I do my research, so I've got it Hassen. Okay.
So but and I'm so.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Happy to have you here because you are an expert
in cults, and I need an expert. I'm an expert
to be on the other side of a cult because
my wife left our marriage for a cult leader. And
you're very familiar with this kind of thing. Were you
in a cult yourself?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
I was recruited into a front group of the Moonies
called the Korean Messiah figure Sunmeng Moon back in nineteen
seventy four, when I was nineteen and a student a
Queen's College. My girlfriend had jumped me abruptly, and moony
(01:21):
women were flirting with me and lying and saying they
were students and they weren't. And I went into a
rabbit hole for two and a half years and then
nearly died in a van crash. Led to a voluntary deprogramming,
not because I wanted to leave or I had any doubts.
I had no doubts, but I wanted to prove to
(01:42):
my family I wasn't in a cult and I wasn't brainwashed.
So I agreed to meet. And then I learned about
Chinese communist brainwashing, and I was like, wow, those eight
criteria fit the family.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
It really is criteria that they all cult leaders use
the same methods, they all have the same methodology, and
and well this in this case, they used your vulnerability
with women. Am I correct in assuming that that that
you said they flirted with you, they offer you anything else? Yeah,
without all part of the program is there, We're going
(02:20):
to lure you in with sexuality.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
So first of all, let me just say that there
are many techniques for deceptively recruiting people into authoritarian cults,
but the key is that it's deceptive that you don't
know what you're getting into, and whether they overtly lie
(02:44):
or withhold vital information or distort it. The bottom line
is you don't have informed consent, which is a critical
variable for any healthy or organization or relationship. And let
me say that the word cult is a problematic word
(03:05):
because I think about cults along my influence continuum from
ethical to unethical, and I think there are cult groups,
but they're okay or healthy cults, and then they're authoritarian
mind control cults. So I'm worried about authoritarian cults where
(03:26):
they take people away from their ability to think for themselves,
have their own ideas, you know, reality testing, They isolate
people from family and friends who are critical, et cetera.
And so I think of China or Russia as an
authoritarian cult big one. But you can have a one
(03:49):
on one authoritarian relationship that's a cult of personality. So
my work spans forty eight years as a mental health
profession all written four books, three that are in print
or behind me. And it's been a journey, fascinating journey.
(04:10):
But public needs to understand this phenomenon. So I'm grateful
to you for doing a podcast to shed some light
and hopefully get people questioning and thinking and learning about
this stuff.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yeah, whether they're in one or whether there loved ones
are in one, we don't have the education. This isn't
something you study in school. I was familiar with it
because my dad had his own cult, so I was
familiar with it, and then my wife ends up following
another leader. I'm glad you said that it could be
one person with very few followers. It doesn't have to be,
(04:48):
you know, an entire country like you're talking of Russia
or China. This can be an individual thing where someone
just captures all common sense and even all love. I mean,
they adore this leader and they take it away from others.
For this adulation that takes place, I've never seen anything
like it actually.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Yeah, So for me, I want everyone to learn and
be preventively educated, or to use public health term inoculate
everybody so that they can reality test and avoid essentially
malignant narcissists. Turns out to be the stereotypical profile of
(05:33):
cult leaders. That term was invented by Eric from a
social psychologist who is trying to categorize Hitler, and he
was like, well, he's a narcissist, but he's more than
a narcissist. He thinks he's above the Lowy's a pathological liar,
he's sadistic, he's paranoid, you know, he's vengeful. So there's
(05:57):
a long list, and in fact him my latest book,
The Cult of Trump, which has just been re released
with a forward from George Conway and then afterward by myself,
I compare Trump with Jim Jones of the People's Temple,
Sun Myung Moon, my former cult leader, and Hubbard of Scientology.
(06:19):
They all have malignant narcissist characteristics.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
I have a few questions about this, and we're going
to dive into the book as well. Do malignant narcissists
exist to be the followers? Are the followers also narcissists?
That's what I'm finding right now. It's being discovered on
a daily basis. When I read memes or whatever discoveries
I have about the qualifications of a narcissist, I'm going, oh,
my god, this is my ex wife.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
It's like to the t.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Yet she has followed the other one, so they're almost
co cult leaders, although she actually she does not act
as the leader leader.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
She's kind of like a corporal. So but does that
exist as well?
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Do they unpack this idea? As a mental health professional,
I've been trained in developmental psychology, and I'll just say
that the latest theories about how a malignant narcissist gets
created goes back to the first two years of early
(07:25):
childhood and lack of what's called secure attachment, and so
there's not a healthy core self that is develops where
in a healthy parental relationship, the child feels loved and
their needs are taken care of, and they're fed when
(07:47):
they're hungry, they're change, they get you know, adequate sleep,
they're protected. But with insecure attachment, maybe the parent is
an alcoholic or occasionally pays attention but then doesn't, or
screams and yells and takes.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
It out, or a narcissist themselves.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Right exactly. So that's one piece I want to say.
But the other thing that I want your listeners to
understand is mind control is best understood as a dissociative disorder.
And to explain that, what I'd like to say is
explain it this way. That Steve Hassen, a Flushing Queens,
(08:32):
New York who liked to play basketball, wrote poetry like
girls and wanted to be an English professor. When I
met the Moonies, my identity was broken down and I
was programmed to be a new identity in the image
of Sun Young Moon. So there was like an old
(08:53):
Stephen who was Satanic and my parents were only my
physical parents, but the new Steve had Moon and his
wife is his true parents, and was told to be
like Moon, to think like Moon, feel like him, walk
like him, talk like him, and the close. And I
was made a leader very early on in my involvement
(09:16):
because they were looking for American front people. Not that
I had any power, but I got to be with
Moon in person a lot, and the closer I got
to him, the more narcissistic and malignant narcissistic I became.
So it's easy for outsiders to go Steve's a narcissist.
But if you knew me beforehand, I wasn't. I was
(09:39):
an introvert who was not interested in power or money
or fame or any of those things.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
But the cult me was That is fascinating because I
was She considers my ex wife considers herself an introvert,
so it's interesting and it's that vulnerability that they prey
upon because then they empower them. I'm sure you were empowered.
You're going to be a spokesperson in Unit.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
OH, a chosen leader. They're going to save humankind and
I'll run my own country one day when we take
over the world. And what's totally surreal and bizarre, Craig,
is that in nineteen seventy four I was in the
room with Sun Young Moon when he talked about how
(10:24):
democracy was satanic, that God wants a theocracy, that we're
going to infiltrate the government and take it over, and
that when we take over, will amend the constitution and
make it a capital offensive people violate the group's rules.
And now it's fifty years later and there are people
(10:46):
talking this talk about taking over the government, turning it
into a theocracy, destroying the separation of church and state,
getting rid of voting. And I'm like NP. People say,
but the Moonies, you don't hear about them anymore, And
I'm like, the Moonies have the Washington Times. His son
(11:09):
was at January sixth doing disinformation that it was Antifa.
They have a gun cult, saying that you need an
ar fifteen to worship God, and the other son has
a gun factory and what I learned I interviewed a
man with about his book. What I learned is the
(11:29):
Moonies have been the center for climate science denial for
fifty years.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
I did not know any of this. It's amazing and
you were part of this. Yes, I was sided, but
it took it took an accident for you to get
out of it.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Well, the accident led to the opportunity for my family
to rescue me, and, honestly, without my family's love and willingness,
to take a big risk to do something that was
basically illegal back in nineteen seventy to take away my
crutches because I had a big cast on my leg
(12:04):
from the accident, and hold me against my will at
least for twenty four hours until it became voluntary. It
was a big risk, but I love my family, They
loved me, and I wanted to prove to them I
wasn't in a cult. And that's another thing I want
your listeners to understand. When you're in a cult, you
(12:24):
don't think you're in a cult.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Yeah, I mentioned that before.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
I don't believe you've been brainwashed.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
There's no problem.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Everyone else has got the problem, but not me. My
group's good.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
There's not a single person who's in a cult that
will say I'm in a cult. Literally the definition is
lost on them.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Well, i'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna disagree with you
and tell you that some cults proudly say we're in
a cult. Really yes, actually, especially if there's been negative media,
it's like, yeah, we're in a cult, but you mean
like that, okay, yeah, yeah, But they don't understand what
(13:02):
brainwashing and mind control is. And I'll just say that
what helped me were former military intelligence experts studying Chinese
communist brainwashing in the fifties. Robert J. Liften wrote thought
Reform in the Psychology of Totalism, where he outlined eight
criteria in chapter twenty two that any environment maybe judges
(13:27):
a brainwashing environment. That's the book that was used in
my deprogramming. That was like, we do all of those.
But Margaret Singer was another expert, Lewis West Edgar Shine.
So back when I got out in seventy six, the
standard was Chinese communist brainwashing. But what's happened over the
(13:49):
decades is there's more and more sophisticated understanding about how
the mind works, about social psychology, about neuroscience, and now
with the digital world, the social media, it's called manetic
warfare is taking place on people's minds through their cell
(14:10):
phones and their computers, and the public doesn't get what
is actually happening to.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Probably worse now than it was in the seventies when
you were part of the moon it is.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
It's far worse. It's global, it's far reaching.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Now, they're their messaging can be far reaching. It's not
like you probably had to go to some meetings, you
had to go over to back or wherever he was to.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Be with him. Now here we are.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
You and I are on a zoom together, right, Yeah,
that's how they That's how they. I can, I can
brainwash you right now.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
You're you're you're absolutely correct. And I'll just add that
back when I was a recruiter for the Moonies, I
had to elicit personal information from the people I was
trying to recruit by asking questions about their family, their
brothers and sisters, What do their parents do to find
(15:04):
out what buttons to push to motivate them to get
into the cult.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
To find the buttons, that's the whole key, is the vulnerability.
What buttons did you have that, They pressed what kind
of vulnerable?
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Let me let me just finish the thought and then
I'll answer your question and say back then it was
person to person asking questions. Now with data mining, because
the United States doesn't have any privacy laws for our
digital information and because of all the hacking that's been happening,
(15:38):
there is an estimated five thousand data points on every
voting American in the dark Web, and they have supercomputers
and AI where they can profile you to know which
buttons to push with algorithms. It's not even needed that
to ask people directly to tell me about your childhood.
(16:01):
They already know which buttons to push. Now back to
my story. What buttons did they push? Well, initially the
main button was horniness. I was eighteen and I liked
girls and I liked sex.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
And they had some bodies they had to Did they
have the shaved head with the did you have to
do that?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
As well? Did you do this?
Speaker 3 (16:24):
No? That was the Hari Christianism and some Buddhist cults.
Now the Moonies were more like look like young Republicans
that we wore three piece suits and had short hair.
I had a ponytail when I was recruited that had
to go, and I wore dungarees and work boots. They went.
(16:45):
But the other button that was pushed for me was
was like being told that I had a much greater
purpose in my life than writing poetry and being an
English professor. And I was not someone I grew up Jewish,
I was not someone interested in joining groups or changing
(17:08):
my religion at all. But the idea that the world
was messed up because it was in the seventies. I
was in the last draft lottery to go to Vietnam,
for example. So I grew up at the end of
the Vietnam War. I knew the world was messed up.
I knew pollution was a problem back then too. And
(17:32):
he was a group of people who talked confidently with
certainty that they knew what to do that would fix everything.
And do I want to be in on this unique
knowledge and be part of this unique group that's going
to save the world, and that.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Is also peace and love oriented as opposed to the
cult of war, which is the opposite.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Yeah, absolutely, I'm a kid.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
I'm going to go fight this stupid war. You probably
knew it was at the time.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Yeah, And I had no idea that a gun factory
in Korea at the time, much less that the Sun's
and Moon would make their own gun factories in the
United States.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Idea, because you thought they were about peace and love
and they're having these mass weddings and things.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
From what I remember.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Yeah, So a thing that I like to teach people
about is that if you're not asking really direct consumer
critical questions like who is your founder, what is his
or her credentials to found this organization? Like what's expected
(18:45):
of me if I go to this meeting? Are you
trying to recruit me? You know? Are you trying to
get me to go to a workshop or donate my
money or give up my time or cut me off
from my family or my education. Asking those direct questions,
they may still lie and look you straight in the
(19:07):
eye and lie, but at some early point you'll realize
they lied. And that's the moment. As soon as you
realize the first lie, get the hell out of there.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Don't buy into the justifications and all of the distractions
and the love bombing and all of that. If something's legitimate,
it will stand up to scrutiny, it will invite your questions,
it will show itself to be accountable and responsible, and
if it's a lie, get the hell away, because.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
It's it's tough to do that.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
If people need love, you probably needed love maybe where
you're not getting it at home as much as you'd
want a little rebellious No.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Not really, I was. I've worked with a lot of
families in the last forty eight years, and I look
back at my family and it was like boringly normal family.
My parents lived in the same house, they married as virgins.
They weren't drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes, gambling, having affairs. My
(20:12):
father had a hardware business. My mom was an art
teacher in Brooklyn in eighth grade. I have two young
two older sisters, and it was just like, you know,
they were consistent, they were loving. I had a great childhood.
But another interesting point in terms of explaining brainwashing, was
part of the brainwashing was making me believe I had
(20:35):
a terrible childhood.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
That's interesting.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
My family was horrible.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
I just read a post from my ex wife and
she literally says I had everything, and she said husband
didn't and she says and even a dog, but it
wasn't enough. And I think they prey upon that little
inkling of Is there more out there? Should I be
more fulfilled? Is this too normal? Is this not normal?
I mean all of those things. I guess that's what
(21:02):
they're they're shooting for. They're they're looking for that one
little opening that you might have.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Well, So the universal with humans, Craig is we either
can be motivated towards a positive or away from a negative.
So if somebody says I'm in a bad marriage, right,
they may want to get out of the marriage. If
someone says I'm looking for love, I'm looking for an
(21:29):
ideal partner, and then they can offer you that. I
know nothing about your ex wife and the cult, and
I don't know if you are willing to talk about it,
but I'm definitely curious.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Oh my god, are you kidding me? That's what this
is all about.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
I'm also trying to tell me what happened with your wife.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Well, she connected with this woman I call her broke.
I use code names, and my wife ex wife I
call lotus. These are code names.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
So are you are you trying to avoid being suit
or you know?
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (22:01):
I mean, you know whatever, I mean, I'll probably come
out with it and people ask me. I tell them
that a lot of people know already because they know
I was married to and all that, and they know
who she follows. She's very out with who she follows.
And it's even more she's doubling and tripling down.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
On the person's followed.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
No, it's it's a very it's a very small cult.
She she tells women to get their sovereign freedom. She's
this egomaniac. Come on, mamas, get out of here. She
calls them mamas. She only prays upon middle aged women
who have children, and that's that's that's her niche.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
And she recruits online.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Yeah, well this was live and in person. I actually
introduced them years before she first scammed us on an
insurance thing. Then do these multi level marketing things, wells.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Doctors, there's MLMs are cults in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Right, and and there's nobody monitoring them. There's no there's
They just go ever. I watch her lie to people directly,
and I'm telling flat out lies creating wealth for women.
I was, okay, then you pay me child support, you
know what I mean? Like, if you're making all this money,
there's the proof, and it's just a flat out lie.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
I call her on it.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
She just runs from me. They always run from the truth.
I'm such a fiend. The truth is a fiend of
these people. So I think a lot of times they
get recruited. We paint red flags green. I painted them green.
I never thought that this woman could do this to her,
I would say in the beginning, For she was in
one cult that she brought her into by the way,
she brought her into another one, and it's a group
(23:31):
of women, and.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
It's she, meaning the cult leader, got your wife into
a cult, and then into a second cult, and.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
That one, and that one my ex wife admitted to
being in.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
That one got has forgot me, I say, us, I
pay all the bills eighty grand for that one. All
these investments in soap and products and yeared a millionaire,
all these scams and skims.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Oh so multi level marketing.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
For sure, yes, exactly where you know the one who
benefits is at the top. Well, this one and finally
left the other one that broke left the other one,
Raven was her name.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
So she then starts her own thing.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
And it started with mommy minutes, and it goes to soap,
then it goes to crypto, all these things, and she's
always at there and she and she everything she posts
is full confidence and it doesn't matter. She posted about
this one. I really got suspicious. They went to Australia together.
They did some dance for freedompreneurs. Freedompreneurs and they did
(24:29):
some dance, just this egomaniacal dance. They studied the dance.
She would leave the family to go up north to
study this dance. It's it's like, what is this not business?
I don't see Elon Musk doing a dance, you.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Know, don't get me started on Elon who whoever.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
I'm saying, I'm trying to come up with somebody that's
really successful, Mark Cuban or wherever it is. Business people
don't act like this. And now she got her into
b DSM. Do you know what BDSM is?
Speaker 3 (24:57):
Bondage and discipline And stayed on.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
The M dominance And so then she first started posting
and I said, and we were married at the time.
I said, my god, she's she's like humiliating her husband
like she says I cheated on them. I got out
at one at the four in the morning and I
was dominated by this man. And she poses all these
looks like only fans. They have little she has little kids.
(25:20):
They could read this, but it's so egomaniacal that my
wife at the time thought nothing of it.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
And now she's doing this. She followed her.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Now they have a podcast about the BDSM, so humiliate
our children even more, and they.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Just don't stop.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
You have children, we have.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Young children together and now I'm a single dad. But
it's which is really she just blew up the whole thing.
She she stole money, she changed the password. They'll do anything.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
They have no.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Justify the means.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
They have no morals, no values, and they follow no
higher source power, God, whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
They have none of that. They follow whatever.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
The latest emotional reasoning is for this woman to spout off,
here's my latest. And now, by the way, today it's
honor your man because she found a man though the
leader did. And then of course my ex wife followed suits.
She's posing with her man. Now you know some guy
she meets in Colorado. And that's the thing is they
(26:23):
they just they prey upon other vulnerable women who are
in a place of you know, they could be a menopause,
a mid life crisis, they could be bored. She was
basically saying bored, well, put yourself into the marriage is
But my theory is like put more into it and
then see if you're bored, especially exactly exactly so the
(26:43):
kids aren't first in these cults. The one that broke
that leader, her kid didn't speak to her for a
whole year. And I'm like, you know to my ex
wife and going, can you look at these things? Can
you just But they can't look, they can't see, you know,
the street.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
So the thing is is that mind control isn't one
hundred percent, that the person's authentic self is still there.
That's the hopeful message, and that if people are not
isolated and a lot of people are on in silos
(27:19):
on the internet where they're not getting information about other
cults and learning about the Byte model, which is my
model of how to analyze for yourself if you're undermind control,
looking at behavior control, information control, thought control, and emotional control.
(27:40):
I did a whole TEDx talk on how to reality
test for yourself and the first step is always step
away from what you're into. I take a time out, unplug,
stop the constant reinforcement and indoctrination. Step two is learn
(28:02):
authoritarian mind control models. I recommend lifting, which helped me
and my byte model. It's on my website freedomomind dot com.
You can literally go through the laundry list the variables,
and we're about to release a website where people can
do an evaluation, a scientific evaluation of how authoritarian their
(28:26):
relationship or group is. So then then once you've studied that,
then seek out critics and X members and experts and
hear what they have to say, because if you're convinced
you're not brainwashed, you can discern whether there's facts, whether
there's substance for yourself. That's my argument.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah, it's suppose.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Right deep down, do you think that she does know?
Do you think she I mean, I make her way.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
I think there's a real self that that was a
normal person that got co opted and taken over. But
as I got out of the Moonies, I needed the
right conditions to be able to and the accident got
me away from the cult. I was sleeping three to
(29:16):
four hours a night. Now I'm in the hospital for
two weeks, sleeping most of the day and night, so
like my body was healing and I was just away
from the constant doctrination.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah, and if I may one of the things that
prevents her from even any of this research is pride.
It's actually pride. It's backwards in a backwards way caused
you to examine. It's like, I'm going to prove that
I'm not in a court.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Well, that's why I'm sharing my story because I think
it really fits for a lot of people to be like,
if you're so sure that you're not brainwashed, do the
reality testing. So take a time out, get away from
this woman, this group, this constant stuff on the way
your phone, like, stop all of that. Study The byte
(30:04):
model of mind control you can read Combat and Cult
mind Control, which is still in circulation and it's helped
people around the world in many languages to reality test.
Talk to x MLM experts or groups like the one
that you were in, and then reflect back before you
(30:27):
met the group, What did you believe was going to
happen if you went to that first seminar, read that
first book, or donated that first amount of money? What
did you think and think about where you're at now?
And if you knew then what you know now, would
you have ever said yes? And it's that question that
(30:50):
turns on a lot of light bulbs in people's minds
or like yeah, because I asked the women who were
flirting with me, are you part of a religious group?
Oh no, not at all. Are you students here? Oh? Yes,
they weren't. And if I go back to that moment
and go, if I knew then what I know now, what,
(31:11):
I've invited them to sit at my table to recruit me.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
No, I would have told him to fuck off.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Sorry, I would have told him to get lost. I
would have called security. Right. So the point is is
there's an exit ramp for everybody. Nobody's perfect. People can
be deceived. Their minds can be hacked, just as someone
can be deceived to click on a link and it
takes over your computer and you have to hire an
(31:42):
expert or you have to get anti malware software to
get rid of the malware. There's exit to freedom, but
it's up to each individual to take look in the
mirror and take responsibility for their lives.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
And there's the rub.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
If they're not willing to do that, there's no willingness
on her part.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
She's in complete denial.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
So she's not willing to you because you're the enemy.
And that's the other thing I want to say, is
that anyone who's your ex husband, wife, family, any friend
that said you're in a cult or you're a brainwashed
You're labeled as evil and you're trying to suppress them,
you're trying to take away their spirituality or whatever. It's like.
(32:25):
Get out of that binary all or nothing, us versus them,
good versus evil frame and take a frame of hey,
we're all humans. Nobody knows the truth with a capital T,
and let's reality test, you know, because we don't want
to be in a situation where we're going, what did
(32:46):
I do to my kids? You know? What did I
do to my husband and me?
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Shaming her isn't going to help. It's going to make it.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
It's going to prolong her involvement unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
The river and I realize I've done so many times.
I mean even this morning, I was texting her basically saying,
do you have any shame whatsoever for what you've done?
I mean, and I think the opposite reaction is what
takes place.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
She's going to double down. They threaten to take my.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Kids away, the cult leaders, I mean, this is I mean,
there's little stuff that's illegal that they do that they
don't have no conscience, that's so they stop from a
place of we're helping people.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
That's how my what's.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
My advice is stop doing what you know is counterproductive,
even though it may feel good at the moment for
you to text like that. I wrote a whole book
called Freedom of Mind, How to help a loved one
with controlling people, cults and beliefs, And there's a strategy
(33:45):
of dos and don't like. For example, never attack the leader,
the doctrine, or the policy head on, because if you're attacking,
it's going to activate the cult identity to get defensive
and see you as evil. So you never attack, but
you can ask questions with a respectful, curious approach. And
(34:11):
here's the critical thing that I teach people is think
back to your wife, did you ever watch a documentary
together about Scientology or raj Niche or one of these
other cult groups. Lulu Rich is a documentary on an
MLM cult that's set up by Mormons. So you pick
(34:35):
other things to talk about as being mind control cults,
not what they're into, but this, and then ask them questions,
what do you think of the fact that this person
gave all their money and now they're broke, and what
do you think I'm just curious.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Well, I can actually use personal examples because she does
admit to the first cult that this woman brought her to.
She admits to that they stole money from me, it
was used, and.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Then apply the bite model to the first cult.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
What's that?
Speaker 3 (35:05):
Apply my bite model to the first cult?
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Well, here's the thing, is anything coming out of me?
Let me ask you about this. I remember her saying
the words that she didn't believe in interventions. I do
believe in interventions. It's been I've been I've been part
of interventions, drug and alcohol, not this kind of thing, right,
So she puts that in her mind, I don't believe
in interventions. So we're already it's already difficult. But is
there a world this is? I keep dreaming. I think
(35:29):
you have these dreams of how do we get through.
I'm sure you understand my frustration. It's really difficult.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
I've been helping people for forty eight years.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Okay, so you know you get it.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
So my question is do I gather some friends and
give them the information because she has it out there
that she's this hippie, this really sweet person. Meanwhile, the
kids have all witness she's violent, she's a horrible temper,
she shuts things out, she's a thief, she's stolen a
million dollars from me, And.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
People, how old are your kids?
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Ten in fifteen and they're they're way behind getting mommy
back to reseat.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Well, the fifteen year old is old enough for sure
to educate about cults and mind control. And so my
book Freedom of Mind basically advocates what I've learned is
the most effective approach. I call it the strategic interactive approach,
because I don't like the term deprogramming. It's too mechanical
(36:26):
and we're not computers, and it brings up images from
the seventies when I was deprogrammed, where I was held
against my will. The strategic approach, you gather family members, friends,
ex members of other groups, and you make a team
and you educate them and they can each interact. But
(36:50):
not for you to empower your ex wife to think
for herself. That's the key. It's influence. To empower people
to think for themselves, not to tell them what to think,
not to program them with an ideology, but to encourage
them to reality tests and think for themselves. And in
(37:13):
chapter ten of the Freedom of Mind, book, I have
a three step phobia intervention. It turns out that phobias
are the universal mind control technique that cult leaders use.
And what I mean by phobia is it's an irrational fear,
not a legitimate fear where there's actual danger, but an
(37:36):
irrational fear that if you question the leader or leave
the group, terrible things are going to happen.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Yeah, that's to you. She's afraid of her leader.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
So in your mind, when you're under mind control, you
can't imagine leaving the group and being happy and fulfilled.
You can't. You can only generate negative images in your mind. Mind.
But learning about how to discern what's an actual danger
and what a phobia is and how other cults use
(38:10):
phobia indoctrination like MLMs. They tell people that if you
get a job, you're a failure. Yeah, you know that
you have to be an independent business person and then
you're a success. So they put all these fear of
failure in people's minds, that if they quit the cult
(38:31):
or the pyramid scheme, they're a failure. The opposite, it's like, no,
I got free, thank you very much, and I'm back
to the real world. The iron I can.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Yeah, the iron is they pitch freedom. I remember one
of her common phrases from the leader was sovereign freedom. Mamas,
come on and get out of your golden cage. She
called it a golden cage because I'm the breadwinner. And
of course there's a lot of the in the feminine cults.
I'm sure familiar with those as well, with the toxic femininity,
(39:03):
where it's a divine feminine they call it. They have
all these this terminology, soul sisters and all this. It's
basically to say there's another cult going. I love to
discuss with you. Men are not needed. Men are not needed,
and you must get your freedom from the golden cage
that he has you in. There's an illusion. They create
these illusions exactly. Yeah, they're based they're based on, you know,
(39:26):
some things that were true back in the fifties or
whatever it was, or maybe even true today. Certainly not
the case here, but she's convinced that it was the case.
And then you have the women that collude with this.
They literally have women's groups, they call them women's groups.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Yeah, and I'm sure yes.
Speaker 3 (39:44):
But for me, I'm about empowering people to have an
internal locus of control in their own body. Yeah, with
anybody or any group. So the framing, as you were
describing it, is get free from your husband or from
the golden cage. But I would say to people listening
(40:06):
who are in this group that your wife is involved with,
reclaim your personal power. Reflect on all the times you
were told to do things that you didn't want to do,
but you did it because this other person told you
it would be good for you or important for you
to do, and ask yourself, was that really my choice
(40:29):
or was I being coerced to believe this or do this?
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Yeah, these are all great questions.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
If somebody's willing, that's the whole key is is she
willing the answers obviously No.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
At this point, it's to get to that school.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
No to you, but not necessarily no to somebody else
who's approaching her in a more respectful, curious way. But
you're you're demonized, So you're like, I would recommend stop
messaging her other than I love you and I wish
the best for you.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Yeah, I've actually done that. I went through phases of that.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
Today.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
I admitted that I have a person that I go
to for my spiritual growth, and he really does keep
me in that vibration of love and service. And I
admitted to him today, you know the stages of grief.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
I'm in anger today. Sure, I'm in anger.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
I just watched these posts that she has absolutely full
of it, complete.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Lies, and I actually I.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Go in there by the way, on all my different accounts,
and I tell people the truth of who she is.
And she has fewer and fewer people that follow her,
but even the ones that do, it's all about praise.
I think that that's a part of cults too. Is
they praise you? They put these women who recruited you
into the Moonies, they probably praise you handsome and well yeah,
(41:50):
love bombing.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:53):
So is it inappropriate for me to ask who you're
going to for advice? Or do you want to not
be public?
Speaker 2 (42:00):
I am the biggest open book.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
And I was about to say, there's one source of
pride I have. I really try to remove myself from ego.
I'm listening to everything you say, for instance, and with
absolute openness and and and ego list to say, oh no,
I'm going to keep going. No, not right to do
what I do, not right to do the messaging you're
letting me know that you reflect it back and I
do listen to it. Now, will I heed the call?
(42:23):
Once in a while I might slip. This guy keeps
me in a point where I don't slip as much.
He really does the reminders. He really keeps me in
a very I call it vibration. He keeps me in
a very high vibration. And you're ask me who he is?
Speaker 3 (42:38):
Yeah, you want to share his name or rather not?
Speaker 1 (42:41):
No, of course, I'm I'm a transparent, open book. If
there's anything I'm proud of in my life, it's that
I am transparent and okay, fully honest, let me have it.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
His name's Achille Beckworth. He's the brother of a guy
who leads a spiritual center.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
I go beck with, what's that?
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Michael beckwith, Yes, So it's his brother who is just
so it's just incredible that the place that he brings
me to, which is love and service, and that's where
I want to be.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
I want to be. I want to be I'm.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
All for that. I practice that, and but I want
to say that it's okay to have an ego. And
I think when people say they want to be ego less,
that's where they can really get into trouble because it's
our self that can also exercise critical thinking and go,
(43:36):
wait a minute, this doesn't sound right.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Absolutely yeah, right.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
So I think you want to have a healthy sense
of self that's oriented to growth, to hearing different points
of view. I definitely believe in the importance of being
in your body and we're not just floating out in
hypnotic vibration land. And I do believe in vibrant I mean, what.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
About what about God, higher source, higher power?
Speaker 2 (44:05):
I'm a big Wayne Dyer guy. What about that?
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Well, I believe in God. I'm part of a Jewish
community for twenty six years, and I pray, and I meditate,
and I dovin and I do yoga and other things.
But I also am open to always reality testing and
staying in my lane of you know, what I know
(44:33):
to be true. I never lie. A long time ago
I realized that this life's complicated enough and just be honest.
And if you don't want to say something, don't say it.
But if you're going to say, don't lie. So what
I want to.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
I just think for me, what's worked. I can only
go by my experience in life. My experience in life
is former drug addict, alcoholic, right, And it took I didn't.
Speaker 3 (45:02):
Know that about you. I'm just meeting you for the
first time exactly.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Well, it took this higher consciousness God. It took that
to relieve me where I can be sober for decades
later and also live a life where I understand that.
That's what it's about, is turning it over to this
higher source and surrender ego, which people say is edging
(45:26):
God out. And that's what I'm saying when I talk
about ego is, of course, we have to have some
healthy ego or we can't exist. There has to be
some self confidence or we can't exist. I couldn't be successful.
I became very, very successful and from nothing and literally nothing,
including spirit and God and so forth. I was just
raised almost latch key, no father, no influences, but all
(45:50):
my influencers were they were not going to serve me well,
leading the point of suicide attempt and alcoholism and drug
addiction and crime. And some of this, by the way,
is almost karmic. When she does these things, I go, Okay,
you did that too, So I get into space up again.
This is God forgiveness, forgive myself and then forgive her.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
Yeah, it's a good practice, and I would just encourage
you to move out of anger and maybe hopelessness that
she's going to be out of this and back to
her true self. But I do believe that she will.
Oh do you I really do? You know? We're just
mind control is not one hundred percent, and people leave
(46:36):
colts even after forty fifty sixty years. But they need
to have a welcome. They need to know that they
can leave and be you know, accepted and loved and
forgiven for the terrible things they said and did when
they were, you know, off their rocker. Yeah, I was
(46:58):
off my rocker. I was a right wing fascist, willing
to murder millions of people, and I was educated about
the Holocaust as a child. I was like totally hacked.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
And by the way, there's another example of I'm sure
you talked about this in your book, the Cult of
Trump and what happened in Nazi Germany. He went right
down the line. He did exactly what cult leaders do.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
You know.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
First of all, they went for the you know, you've
got to take out the media, You had to take
out the scenting voices. You have to you demonize those
who come against you. There's a whole pattern that they do.
I'm lucky. It's like I feel like I'm lucky.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
I really do. I feel like I'm one of the
lucky ones.
Speaker 3 (47:39):
It Really being grateful is the best spiritual practice of
all time.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Yeah, that's one of my principles I live by by
the way I teach something. I teach the alchemy of
laughter that laughter is like a god source. And the
acronym I use is love, because everything's about love. You
center everything in love. Even great sitcoms, it's all based.
The best sitcoms are love at the base. Acceptance. What
you don't accept, that's the A and that's where conflict
(48:06):
comes in. But if you have love at the base,
it's okay. Uniqueness that's the you. How are you unique?
We're all unique, everybody's unique. Really dive into what makes
you unique and it makes you fun and more interesting
and compelling. And then of course then I get to
the G. And the G is gratitude. If you're not grateful,
you're entitled. People don't want to be around it. It's
a bad energy to have. Age is humility. That's where
(48:28):
you just like admit all your rumbles stumbles, fumbles, crumbles
and tumbles, which I'm always willing to do. I admit
it here today with you. T is truth without truth
is God. Truth is inevitable. It's inevitable that you get
to the truth. But get to there faster and you'll
be much happier. E is ego Watch where your I
(48:49):
just think it's evading growth opportunity, is what I say.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
Ego is I'm evading my own growth opportunity.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
If I stay in that ego, stay in being right
and stay come on, people collude with me, believe me.
I don't even have this podcast because I want people
to believe me. I want people to really have their
minds open to There's the cult of even alcoholism, because
you could lose somebody at alcoholism and they're in the
same denial. Somebody's in a cult. Absolutely, And the r
(49:16):
and laughter is rejoice, reboot, refresh, rejuvenate, all those rewords.
We get to have another chance all the time. We
get to reset, every single moment we can reset. I'm
resetting here with you. I'm getting down.
Speaker 3 (49:29):
Wonderful man. I congratulate you. And the most powerful way
to teach is to model your teaching. Yeah, sounds like
you're wanting to, you know, live the walk, you know, Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
Do what I do with my slips. And that's why
I have you. I've got you know, Achille, and I've
got whoever. It was reminders that I'm willing my friend Pat,
that I'm willing to listen and not have my ego stroked.
And that's another thing with cults that I've noticed this
leader they stroke on another. It's a praise thing. And
then I watched the one about One is Love. Did
(50:05):
you see that on HBO? That's another cult thing.
Speaker 3 (50:07):
I haven't seen that one yet. I've seen so many documentaries.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
I love them. I love them, by the way, I'm
so fascinating.
Speaker 3 (50:14):
But most of them, though, are trauma porn in my mind,
and they're not teaching people what they actually need to
learn about.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
Then that's that's right, Stephen. Do you mind if I
call you Steven or Steve.
Speaker 3 (50:26):
Would call me Steve is fine, Steve.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
That's exactly why I have this. This is not porn
for people that want more tragedy. They want to hear
about more crazy stories.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
I understand. I've got plenty of them.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
The things that she's done, it's it's unbelievable, unconscionable, some
of the things that she's done. She's even had me arrested,
that's how far she went. She's the violent one, had
me arrested, because they're going to arrest a big dude.
Speaker 2 (50:50):
They're not going to rest this hippie chick. And you well,
she prays upon all of these things.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
She knows society how society is definitely going to go
towards the woman who's the peaceful woman. She's the mother,
she's the mother of the children. Even but you know,
he's aware of what's going on.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
Though.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
This is I love this, This is what I do
love about how I'm raising the children. The children definitely
gravitate towards me. And they're sweet, and they're spiritual, and
they're good kids. They're really really good kids. And they
I said, I said to my son, and go, what
are you going to tell your spouse someday of why
your mom and dad divorced? She says, because mommy was brainwashed.
(51:31):
They're both really really clear on it.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
We'll have them read Combat and Cult Mind Carol or
listen to it, and it's going to help them honestly
know better how to and and they they can interact
with her too, if in a way that when they
ask her, hey, Mommy, I'm reading this book. I'd like
(51:53):
you to read it and we can talk about it.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
And have them be the messenger. Because she loves she
loves her children, There's no question about it.
Speaker 3 (52:01):
Parental love is a deep, deep, deep thing. I mean,
we know from people's temple and this Culton Africa where
people were starving their kids to death because they were
following a prophet quote unquote Mackenzie who is telling them
God told them to do this. But a parent's love
(52:21):
for their child is often the way out of mind
control cults.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
This is what I count on actually, and I have
my kids seeing Achille as well. By the way, I'm
just looking for some solutions. It's why have you. I
have other guests. I have another guest, a friend of mine.
His sister's Lori Valo, and if you know her story,
she killed her two kids.
Speaker 3 (52:42):
I'm afraid. I was interviewed about Lorii Valo and the
Mormon preppers. I've done a lot of work with former Mormons,
former Jehovah's Witnesses, and other groups that the public doesn't understand.
These are authoritarian mind control call.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
I'm so glad you bring it up. I'm really I
applaud you for doing it. You're brave to do it
because I know they're not fans of yours.
Speaker 3 (53:08):
No, but you know I'm an equal opportunity freedom of
mind promoter. So I think most even cult members know
that I'm not just opposing them. I'm opposing lots of
other really bad groups, for example, with cults of Trump.
(53:28):
You know, people, I say, don't you agree Chinese communists
are doing brainwashing on the wigers and on their people.
Oh yes, so that it's an opportunity to teach them
about the byte model or pimps and traffickers. People in
MAGA are against pimps and traffickers. Well, let's talk about
(53:50):
how traffickers groom people and how they give them a
new identity and b ite so they'll listen as long
as you're not a attacking head on.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1 (54:03):
And I used to be a big anti Trump person
and I did that, and I actually, honest and frank again,
I left the left because I found this attack model
which you're talking about. I found it to be counterproductive, ridiculous,
and then I found it to be also ironic and hypocritical.
So as I'm attacking them, I'm in a group where
I find liberals to be compassionate, empathetic. This is who
(54:27):
I want to be. That's who I want to be
in life. Not that way anymore. My people have turned
into those people. So I'm right here, centered, literally centered
in this place where I can observe it all, check
it all out. I've actually gotten to know the whole
Trump mentality. Now I'm not going to just go knocking him.
(54:48):
And by the way, people have literally disowned me because
I went on Laura Trump's podcast because I.
Speaker 2 (54:54):
Want to know.
Speaker 1 (54:54):
You want to know your enemy, if they're your enemy,
you also want to know who a person is like,
what motivates them, Why would they be part of this?
Speaker 2 (55:03):
Let's see.
Speaker 3 (55:04):
I go on podcasts. I was on Megan Kelly, Joe
Rogan if people ask me to be on. But I
want to make an important point. I know we're getting
towards the end of our time. But my take, and
what I wrote in the Cult of Trump, is that
we're in an age of psychological warfare. I agree China, Russia, Iran,
(55:30):
North Korea, Christian nationalists who are pushing a mythology that
America is a Christian nation and we should abolish the
separation of church and state. There are fossil fuel countries
and corporations doing disinformation. And what my take is that
(55:51):
the left has been infiltrated and the right to make
them more extreme, to create more chaos. But the main
the seventy eighty percent in the middle who are like centrists,
who are like, can't we just get along together? Quiet though,
(56:12):
But that's the thing. They operate and control a lot
of the noise. But I'm in the middle too, and
I'm critical of the authoritarianism on the left or the right,
and I say, I'm just anti authoritarian. It's no longer
left and right for me. I'm just anti authoritarian. By
(56:32):
the way, China is authoritarian left, communists, left right. It's like,
let's get back to human rights, the Universal Declaration of
Human Rights. Let's talk about love, let's talk about freedom,
let's talk about women's rights, gay rights, indigenous rights.
Speaker 1 (56:54):
It's unity that we are all one on this planet.
We are not separate. We are all with this gigantic
higher source. You can call God light whatever you want.
I call it laughter, levity, light.
Speaker 3 (57:07):
And I'll and I'll label Iron Rand and the extreme
libertarians who are teaching selfishness is good and altruism is
evil and social darwinism. If you have more money than
you're a better person, that's bs. Of course, that's just
that's cult thinking. And it's like.
Speaker 1 (57:28):
Real, I know we're concluding, I wish you lived here.
I go, I go for a walk with you. I would,
I would, I could. I could do this all day long.
Speaker 3 (57:36):
Are you in l A?
Speaker 2 (57:37):
Yes? I love people that it's it's it's divine connection.
It's a theory.
Speaker 3 (57:41):
Oh I come to l A. I'm I just moved
to Northampton from Newton, Massachusetts, but I travel a lot
and and uh, we need more good people who care
and who are not hiding and are willing to just
put out constructive messages. So when you your producer reached
(58:02):
out and said, hey, I'm a comedian, would you come
on my thing? I'm like, okay, but what I had
no idea what what cult your wife was in or whatever?
Speaker 2 (58:12):
And good and I came in blank too.
Speaker 1 (58:14):
I know your books, but I wanted this to be
a blank slack and it will.
Speaker 3 (58:18):
I invite you to check them out. Oh, my podcast down.
Speaker 1 (58:22):
I will definitely check them out. Oh I wanted to
ask you, are they an audiobook?
Speaker 2 (58:26):
Because that's yes, they're all on audio. Oh that's great.
I'm going to do it immediately.
Speaker 3 (58:30):
Is. I hired someone else to read Combating, and then
I was asked by Simon and Schuster to read The
Cult of Trump. So I went into the studio. I'm like,
I like this and I like that it's in my voice.
Speaker 2 (58:44):
Oh good, Yeah, I liked my words. It's your words.
Speaker 3 (58:47):
And I did Freedom of Mind and my voice too,
so and I thank you for inviting me. And freedomomind
dot com is my website. I have a substack a
podcast for ted x Talks.
Speaker 2 (59:01):
I love it well.
Speaker 1 (59:02):
One of my goals is I believe that people were
comedians are great truth tellers. We are the last bastion,
and yet they're trying to take us away. You know
that with all the cancel culture and all that goes
on and the sensitivity, it's we're overdoing it now. The
pendulum has swung way too far. We're here to remove
the curtain, the Wizard of Ours. We're here to show
(59:24):
you who's behind that curtain. And people are so frightened
of that they they'll try to take us down. But
the problem with a lot of comedians is they don't
realize how spiritual they are by telling the truth. They
don't realize that is God's work when you're telling the truth.
So they're very cynical and cut off. And then spiritual
people I find have to you know, go through all
the all the mechanisms and you know, the no mistay
and all the things that they've learned and all that
(59:44):
kind of stuff. So they're very serious. So I want
to build a bridge from the woo woo to the
ha ha.
Speaker 2 (59:51):
Great, and you're.
Speaker 3 (59:52):
Part of that. I love that. Thank you for having
me on.
Speaker 2 (59:56):
You're the best. All right, Thank you, and we can
find you at do site.
Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
Is freedomomind dot com and my cult expert on social
media platforms.
Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
Thanks great, guys, thank you for thank you for being
part of this.
Speaker 3 (01:00:11):
All right.
Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
That's going to conclude it. That's a Stephen Hassan, I
said it right, Go follow him.
Speaker 1 (01:00:17):
Keep following us, give us a like, give us a follow,
and you see, we're about solution.
Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
Everybody. Let's all get into solution together. We are all one.
See you next time.
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