Interview w/ Dale Julin

Dale Julin was the Evening News Anchor at WJCL TV-22, the Hearst Television Station in Savannah, Georgia, and the Sunrise news anchor at KSBW TV-8, the Hearst Television station in Salinas, California. He is a Peabody Award-winning investigative journalist who's spent 10 years investigating who the Zodiac Killer is. In his new book "Catching Zodiac : A True Crime Memoir with 'Poste' Script", Dale talks about his journey and the evidence he's collected.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:12):
Welcome to Mysterious Circumstances, everybody, and we have a good
episode for you today. It's a great interview. I finally
get to talk to Dale, Julian the notorious, infamous often
Juelan I know, and it's so I've been waiting to
get you on because me and Jen both collectively have

(00:33):
gotten so much grief for your work on the Zodiac.
Thank you here, Welcome. I am also joined here by
Jen Boucholtz and all of you guys know her. She's
been on the show several times. We work on cases
together with Amu. She's been on Safe Haven several times
as well. And yeah, welcome back Jen.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
Absolutely, thanks for having me. I'm really excited about the
three of us. Nice conversation about Dale's very hard work
through the past one eight years or so.

Speaker 3 (01:05):
Absolutely, and thank you for having me justin. I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
Pleasures all on this side of the microphone here. So
we're good. So we do have some late breaking news
with the donald last case from nineteen seventy one, she
went missing. They have positively id'd her. We're doing another
Zodiac episode, but this time we do have Dale on.
Dale is the one who has been writing the book.

(01:28):
He has done all this work for so long to
get us started. Dale, how did you even get into
the zodiac? Like, what what tripped your trigger to just
go down that rabbit hole and start.

Speaker 3 (01:39):
Going down a rabbit hole? We did, that's for sure,
all right. So just a we promised to get to
some details that we know about Donald Lass, the missing
long missing since nineteen seventy nurse from Lake's South Play
Tahoe at length later on in your show, justin because
that is the breaking news that's happening that they have
matched DNA final a skull found in nineteen eighty six

(02:02):
by a sheriff's deputy and kept in their evidence locker
all this time to the DNA that was obtained by
the South Lake Tahoe Police Department five years ago. When
not coincidentally, because the sisters of Donald Lass came all
the way from the Midwest out to Lake Tahoe, and
by then I'd been in contact with someone. I just
sent my condolences to the last family of Don Pilker,

(02:24):
who is the nephew of Donald Lass. I just sent
my condolences to the family because since twenty fifteen, I've
been working to keep the last family informed through Don
Pilker and the family, if I may, they went to
South Lake Tahoe. They had a copy of my book.
They took the Sick Treasure Maps designed by Gary Francis
post the Zodiac killer post with an eel the end,

(02:47):
and they went right to the tree where we thought
we found evidence. We found evidence that her body and
her bag of bullet had been put up that tree.
We'll get to that in the link later on, but
I wanted to say that they immediately the family, the
last family said that we are going to see South
Lake Tahoe police coming all the way from the Midwest.
They went and met with the detective at South Laka

(03:07):
Police and at that point, five years ago, that's when
the police got the DNA they needed to match the
skull now with Donald Lass. So my congratulations to the
South Laketato Police Department for making that match with their
new cold casing, and my condolences to the last man.
Question you play with Justin, and I didn't want to

(03:28):
bury your lead there, but had to get that out there.
The question was how the heck did I go down
this rabbit hole? Well, in December of twenty and fourteen,
I was one of the morning anchors on the KSPWTV
eight Salinis Monterey, Santa Cruz Hearst Television station, and when
I got off the air at seven o'clock, my terrific

(03:50):
producer Katie, who worked all night long to put the
show together, told me that, Hey, some guy called the
news room, and yes, that's when we used to pick
up the phone. We call the newsroom in the middle
of the night. He says, you know who the Zodiac
Killer is? And we la and I have that because
I know, you know, being at that point, like a
fifty eight year old longtime a newsman in California, I

(04:13):
know that that was a running joke and newsrooms all
across northern California were. The Zodiac Killer in nineteen sixty nine,
seventy through seventy four terrorized millions of us, including myself.
As a young man, a young boy fourteen years of age,
he was threatened to shoot the tires off, fro under,
eat school buses and pick off the kiddies me as

(04:33):
we came bouncing off the bus. All the killings happened
around me growing up in the Fairfield, Napa area, Waleo
area it was like a circle going around. The Zodiac
Killer was killing people left and right, mostly at lover's lanes.
That's sort of thing. So that's why Katie, knowing my background,
kat I mean, said, hey, he sent some pictures on

(04:55):
the email. You know, I thought of he was a
looney tune too, you know, just calling up. He was
just trunk this guy. But he says he's on the
run because the Zodiac Killer knows that he knows who
he is now and he's afraid he's going to be killed.
So he's on the run and he's homeless, and he
wants I said that you should, you should need him
because you knew this stuff, because I know you grew
up in the area. So I said, great, great, okay, fine, fine,

(05:19):
my turn. Now the Zodiac Killer online for or whatever
you say. He sent some emails, yeah, pictures really, okay,
I'll click him on him. So I clicked for the
first one, and it's on the cover of our book,
Catching Zodiac because it was the thing that started it
all because the picture was the man with the sunglasses
on looking up as he was gutting with a long

(05:42):
bowie knife, gutting a doe, not a buck. But a
dough deer and looking up with a kind of in
the magic half smile at the camera right then, right there.
I suddenly had a hunch that maybe there might be
something to this because that picture of that guy killing
the deer, cutting the deer apparently for fun, looked like

(06:05):
the sketch of the nineteen sixty nine police sketch in
San Francisco of the murder of taxi driver Paul Stein.
Because the killer was seen by some leading the scene.
That picture looked like that sketch. So that's what got
it all rolling. There were other pictures too, have ammunition, cipher,
that's other things. Friendly. The guy on the run, whose

(06:28):
name we soon learned was Chris Avery, and we decided
that I decided that day that I had to go
meet him, and so my assistant news director, Jillian O'Brien
and George of the photographer and I we went out
to a place near Monterey Seaside area, the Tobaya homeless man,
a lunch, a sandwich, and go from there. I won't

(06:50):
go in the length about the lead the weirdness of
that first meeting, say to say that I demanded from
this guy, Chris Avery, and he granted the one thing
that I then had that nobody police or press had
in nineteen seventy, I had the name Gary Francis post
with an E on the end. And when Avery I

(07:13):
finally decided to give up the name and told me
it to me, he kind of rocked back and then
went forward before him announcing it like he was announcing
the name of the king. That was the feeling that
I got. So the meeting ended badly. We didn't believe him,
and he walked away homeless, and two days later I

(07:35):
decided to go back down that rabbit hole justin because
I'd given up any worries about the zodio killer decades ago, right,
But I do remember how he terrorized this all back
in nineteen seventy. In sixty nine, we had a SHARE's
deputy following our school bus in from the place called
Green Valley into Fairfield, where I was going to junior

(07:57):
High school. For a month, there were shaf deputies following
all school buses in rural areas in the area where
the killings were happening because of that threat. I just
mentioned about killing the kiddies that came bouncing off the bus.
But I've let that all go behind. But what was
so amazing was I went to tall VODs Zodiackiller dot com.

(08:18):
Wish for years that the police would say, that's the
one guy that's been really really keeping notes on this
whole thing, Right, that's a good source. And I didn't
care about any of the suspects on Thomas thing because
I wasn't. If it wasn't Garry Francis post, I was
not going back down that rabbital I was not going
to get into the Zodiac case. Right. But I wasn't

(08:39):
old investigative reporter, and you know that was decades before.
And so I knew what I was doing in terms
of gum shoe work, and I can do some more
computer technology stuff. And so I went to Zodiac co
dot com. And when I got to the part where
it said, uh, letters and cards, I was amazed. I
was an age. There were the action because sourcing and

(09:01):
journalism matters. I didn't care about any of the other stuff.
You said, I can cuss on your on your show with.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
Justin one Dale. You can say whatever you want.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
There's so much Zodiac Killer crap out there that's totally bogus.
People throwing their theories left and right. I don't care.
I still don't care about the next stuff. I don't
care about the other suspects. I didn't see the movie
until years later. I didn't I left it all behind.
But that what Tom did, Boy did, which was so great,
is he just simply listed what he believed were all

(09:32):
the verified Zodiac killer letters and cars. And I recently
before had been working in Silicon Valley, where I learned
a bit to solve things from the back front, like
how do you find out what that that that Korean
or Japanese toaster? Why it works so well? Well? In
Silicon Valley, they just take it apart and then build
their own reverse engineering. That's the phrase. And so I said, Okay,

(09:55):
what's the one thing that I got with these letters?
They're supposed to be the real deal that nobody has
in nineteen seventy. Well, I've got his name, Gerry Francis Post.
So I started going from the back to the front
because I reasoned that, okay, all these letters, he probably
was much more sophisticated in telling his sick jokes about
his killings at the end rather than the start, Because

(10:16):
the letter's at first ressent to the chronicle and the
Examiner and the Times Earl. They had all kinds of
fuzzy stuff. It was kind of hard to detect that. Actually,
you know those early ones. I know what's going on
now I can find his name with all that, But
that's really not where I went. But when I was
reverse engineering it and I got to the October nineteen
seventy Halloween card, go on on, take a look at

(10:40):
the Halloween card. It is bizarre and they was sophisticated,
joked them by the zodiac killing. And at that point
we knew. I knew about the story about Donna Last
who went missing in nineteen seventy, and this letter was
sent about nothing half after she went missing in September
nineteen seventy scent about October twenty seventh to the Chronicle.

(11:04):
And the Halloween card shows a skeleton hanging from a tree,
a couple of them, and has all kinds of denotations
and such. He's saying, I feel in my bones you
ache to know my name, but then why spoil the game? Right?
And one skeleton is hanging from upon as a pine
tree with poles in it, right, and little birdies all
over it, and it's really weird. And and then there

(11:26):
are other sections of it, right, And so what I
did was, okay, this is a Saturday afternoon. I was
just gonna give it half an hour. I said, look
at this section over here describing how he killed his people,
how he killed his victims by ninth a rope, by fire,
by gun. And then in the center, at the very center,

(11:47):
there was a big tea that says Paradise slaves, because
Zodiac used to brag about how he would be collecting
his slaves for Paradise, and Paradise was misspelled like a
paarr a d I ce e paradis. This is like
Tahoe after all this gambling going on. So I looked

(12:07):
at that and I thought to myself, well that's a
small little section. It's not connected to anything else, all right,
what do you what do you say? We just see
if we can plug something in. Okay, Gary Francis post
And this is what later became known by the FBI
and the police, like San Francisco and all my colleagues

(12:28):
at kast w As the drill, the drill goes like
this is there g there yes? Is there an a there? Yes?
Is an r yes y yeah? And I'm going down this,
and I'm thinking, okay, Dale, what, okay, that's fine. But
then I noticed that he's not using the same letter
again when he goes to Francis. Is there an F there? Yes,

(12:51):
an R yes, a separate A yes, and N yes,
C yes, I s? And then like chill start going
up by a neck. Is there a P there? Yes?
And oh mind you, there's only a few letters in
this entire section, and yet I'm spelling out his entire name.
Is there an oh there? Yes? An S yes? Is

(13:12):
there a tea there? No? So I thought to myself, okay,
that this is not working at all. Okay, is there
an either? Of course? So Gary Francis posts and then
I looked at it again, and all over the letter
it's saying he's teasing us T. He's saying T T.
On the rest of the Halloween card, he's using teas

(13:33):
and like he didn't want you to audio wise, and
he wants you to say the letter T. At one
point he spells it out how to phonetically say it.
So I look at that section of the card again
and there it was, plain as day, big as life,
right in front of me. Paradise Slave. The plays is
the T is the T that's huge and it's it

(13:55):
speaks to something he's trying to say about this tree
in this skeleton. Paradise slave. And later we figured it
out too. How do you what's another phrase for paradise?

Speaker 2 (14:05):
You know?

Speaker 3 (14:06):
P A R A D I C E. That's how
he misspelled it. That's paradise because even a motel in
like South, like Tahoe, that's called that. Why because at
second paradise and gambling, right, you're gambling the dice. What's
another phrase for bones? Paradise dice? Bones, It's about bones.
So that's how it all started. I called the cops immediately,

(14:30):
and they laughed in Satacruz Police, but you know they
they were kind about it, uh, And I said, I
want to report a crime. I see that there's there's
a guy on the run that he needs to talk to.
We recontacted Chris Avery, and that led to us starting
to get him places to stay like homeless shelters and
sush because he was on the run. We brought him

(14:51):
to I brought him to the FBI within a couple
of days, and they talked to Avery for two hours
and then they talked to me for an hour about
the beginnings of what I soon learned were major anagrams
done big and small right there in the letter, and
that's what started going. But what was sad was we
had to keep a place to put avery because he

(15:14):
was on the run and we couldn't contact I could
not actually call his posse of people, much less Gary
Francis Post, who's sitting out there drinking brandy and smoking
a pot in his home in Broblin at age seventy six.
At this point, I guess it was because in my mind,

(15:35):
there's very good evidence that he is the freaking Zodiac Killer,
and I am not going to let him know that
I know he could be the preaking Zodiac Killer until
I have more information. And my bosses at KSPW Lawton,
Dodd Delan lebrond all that day they went to great
lengths to protect me as well as to make sure
that I did not contact probably one of the greatest

(15:56):
still never caught serial killers of the twentieth century, because
he was very alive and still very dangerous, and so
we for months we told everything we learned about about
Garry Francis Post and our own investigation. We gave to
the FBI, and they eventually Inspectors Win Coup and Perucci
of San Francisco p D who were investigating the cab murder,

(16:19):
and Terry Poyser. Now these are all retired cops now,
Terry Poyser the detective from VALOPD, Tivin tell from from Solano, NAPA,
eventually South Lake Tahoe and of course Wallomeee County where
Groveland is. We kept on on a large email chain,
hundreds of tips and information that we were sending to
them for over a year. So what happened was we expected,

(16:42):
and we put together ten minutes worth of stories with
all the police profile that I created and all that
about Posts, ready to go when the FBI, as we expected,
was about to announce that Terry Francis Post was their man.
What we didn't know was that they went up to
Groveland and interviewed Posts, who suddenly got dementia. At what

(17:03):
point down the spectrums dementia he was at that point?
He wasn't that far down, but he was suddenly he
got real bit bad dementia. When the FBI started talking
to and his son in law and others all bad
mouth our whistleblower say he was a drug addict, and
there was a reason on the run because he owed
money and all that. Essentially the FBI dropped the case.

(17:24):
We couldn't believe it, so we you know, as you're
reading the book Catching Zodiac, I had a friend, Hans Smith's,
Captain Hans Smith's, who decided he'd heard everything I learned
because we used to sit at the late Great Moss
landing In, which was the best dive bar between well
In Moss Landing on Highway One, and that was half

(17:45):
my my ride home. So I've let Hants and number
of other patrons of the Moss landing In and the
late Great Railroad Tests who just passed away at age
ninety four, the owner of the place. They all knew
what we were investing getting because I would come home
on the way home. I'd stopped there occasionally and I
would tell them, And so Hans just said, you know,

(18:06):
we've got to protect this whistle blower. He can't keep
standing in homeless shelterers. So Hants put up the money
for his hotel room, and Raverits has put up the
money for his hotel room. Because I, as a journalist,
was not allowed to spend money on sources like that,
and we kept them alive. And eventually he went up
to Montana. For safety's sake, Hans put him on the trains,

(18:27):
put up thousands of dollars to save the life of
the whistle blower, to put them in a hotel room.
Raverit t has pulled out five hundred dollars out of
his wallet when he heard that the homeless person was
still homeless and said, here, get to a room at
a hotel, cheap hotel for a week. The FBI will
come Dale, You've got a good story. Got to figure
this out. The fa will come to the rescue. They

(18:48):
never did. He went to Montana. That's where I could
keep calling Chris Avery and asking in details about Gary
Francis post for months. And let me take a sidebar
and out because I started to figure out these anagram solutions.
And I knew nothing about anagrams. That started, but I
didn't have the name, and I did see a motus operandi. Jen,

(19:10):
if you could chime in on this for a second,
just that little anagram and that small section started this
whole thing. But slowly, but surely I learned how to
do anagrams and how they have to be clever, right.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
Yeah. I don't know why you want me to chime
in because I can't solve a single anagram. But I
understand the methodology that you used, which was consistent throughout
your process, and the methodology worked for decrypting every single
anagram letter that you did.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
I don't follow social media much, but there was a
lot of president when the case breakers, God bless them
when the case breakers that broke the story in October
twenty twenty one, a year after they reached out to
me and Jenny, you can speak to that. How did
that come about? If you could. So.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
I was working with George Jared on an unsolved murder
out of Arkansas, the case of Rebecca Gold and I
had written a series of articles on her case, and
one was the use of behavioral analysis as it applies
to homicide investigation. And in that article I had mentioned
Zodiac Killer and that part of his signature was sending

(20:21):
in taunting letters to police and media. And then I
linked to another scholarly article that had a more in
depth analysis of Zodiac Killer. And so I think you
told me you'd had like a Google alert setup if anybody,
if anything new came out in the news on zodiac
it would let you know. And so my article, you know,
pinged your alert or whatever, and you read it, and

(20:44):
on a whim, I guess you emailed me and you know,
gave me a very brief synopsis of your work and said,
I've written a manuscript on this where you I think
I figured out who the zodiac is where you read it,
and I was like skeptical, like everybody else is. But
I had some time a month or two later to

(21:04):
read it. And when I started reading it, I didn't
stop because I realized, even though I don't, I am
not a zodiac expert. I never was. It's not a
case I would ever choose to pursue, not the type
of case I care to investigate. But I could just
tell reading your manuscript, I'm like, Wow, this is how
this case had to be solved. You had to have

(21:26):
the guy's name first in order to decrypt all of
those taunting letters, which are actually anagrams. If you take
the letters at face value, everybody knows I don't really
say much, but if you decrypt them like you have Dale,
you get the real messages that the guy was wanting
to send. And I know you were desperate at the
time we met, and I remember you saying, I don't

(21:47):
know where to go, and a law enforcement agency will
meet with me, they won't listen. Well if you asked
if I had contacts.

Speaker 3 (21:54):
Jen, But just a quick correction, I had gone to
the FBI several times. I've gotten yet the San Francisco Police,
but then they just they just kept taking They had
gone out of investigated crime scenes that we had given
them related to the Zodiac. But then they just they
just didn't do it. They just stopped. They just you
know what. And that's why I was desperate. That's why
I wrote the me. I just had to get get

(22:16):
this down somehow, and I hope that they pay attention, definitely.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
So I didn't know where to go. I mean, I
do have some former colleagues that were FBI, but they
didn't work that case. I knew they weren't going to
have the right contacts, and so I actually I pinged
my boss at AMU and he put me in touch
with Eric Kleinsmith, who used to be part of our
outreach team and he had a ton of contacts. He's
former Army military like me, and so then through him,

(22:44):
he put me in touch with Tom Colbert of the
case Breakers, and we spoke and I got your permission
to give Tom the manuscript and he did the same
thing I did. He read it in a day and
he called me and he said, oh my god, this
guy figured it out. And I said, I feel the
same way. I feel the same way, And so that's
how this whole thing evolved.

Speaker 3 (23:03):
Yeah. So I have great respect for many of the
FBI agents and others and the agency itself. Go I
have over the decades have come in contact with like
the Ussemiti killer case, all those things, those kind of
things where I have great respect for the FBI and FAS.
But look, this has been embarrassing. They let the Zodiac

(23:27):
killer drink brandy and smoke the pot in his groveling
home for fifteen more months. After we initially went to
them with the name Gary Francis Post, and they initially
went up and talked to him. They put fifteen months
until we later learned and we had her on tape.
She let died this year. Mary Posts, the wife of
Gary Francis Post, essentially let Posts know that she was

(23:50):
finally gonna give up the ghost and tell the cops
about his terrible backs and that's when he threw her
down the staircase and nearly killed her, and he was
arrested by Kowale County share his deep for spousal and
elder abuse and that's what put Post in jail and
that we later learned this year, And Jennet, you would
take this up out here about what we learned through
an FBI source this year. The case breakers that the

(24:15):
FBI after she was thrown down the staircase, that's when
they decided that Gary France's Post was there's Zodiac killer
suspect after he nearly killed his wife. I mean, that's
fifteen months, folks, when the FBI dropped the football.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
Jen Yeah, our understanding through a FBI source that we've developed,
took a while to do that, and of course we
never revealed names of cleandestine sources like that, but they
did confirm that Gary Post was absolutely on the suspect
list after that incident, if not before. My understanding I think,
and Justin's been in on some of these conversations too,

(24:53):
I think is that Gary Post actually was on the
list prior to the assault on his wife, but moved
much higher up the list after that. Assault and after
the information from Mary Post.

Speaker 1 (25:06):
If I remember correctly, that was that was the case.

Speaker 3 (25:09):
Yeah, well that's because we went to the FBI with
our whistle blower at December twenty fourteen. Yeah, and they
did look at him as a suspect. But yeah, he
went he zoomed the number one of the charts after
nearly killing his wife. So that's what's embarrassing about it.
There's so much more that the FBI had known because
we told him.

Speaker 2 (25:28):
So if I can chime in real quick, since you're
at the arrest point, and Tuolomy arrested Gary Post because
he was being arrested for felony at that time in California.
The law was he was it was compulsory that he
had to give a DNA sample. So Twolomy got his
DNA sample and it was supposed to have been uploaded
into cotis per California law. They did not upload it

(25:51):
into cotis and that may have Unfortunately, that oversight or
mistake or choice may delayed justice in some of these
victims cases for years. I have no idea why it
wasn't uploaded into COTIS, but it was a violation of
California law for them not to. Unfortunately, when Gary Post

(26:12):
died a couple of years later, they destroyed that DNA
sample and so it's still has never been uploaded into COTIS.
But that is one of our goals and this is too.
We'll get into this later, but develop his DNA profile
and get it into cotis.

Speaker 3 (26:27):
Because we have it.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
We do. Yeah, that's farther down the story, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
That really bothered me when I initially got into the
conversations because I'm with Jen, this is not normally a
case I would I would dive into. I'm more smaller,
more intimate, unsolved cases and stuff like that. I do
tackle big ones every now and then, but I just
never you know, no disrespect to any victims or anything

(26:55):
like that. I was just something I just never really
wanted to get into. But when I found out that
they had not uploaded that DNA, I was I couldn't
believe it. I'm like, why, there's no there's no reason, you.

Speaker 4 (27:08):
Know, don't well, you know, it's Twaylomee County.

Speaker 3 (27:13):
I was a reporter in Fresno years before, and one
of the running gags was that if you commit a
major crime, the place to go is Twaylomee County or
one of those counties in the back in the buddies
right or you know, law enforcement's swamped. You know they
there's some things that they just don't get around to
because they can't. And that's what Gary Francis posted. He

(27:35):
he was a Union house painter. We got verified living
in Alameda when the killings were happening all up and
down the Bay area. And he moved to Tuylomee County
in nineteen seventy four or seventy five, something like that
and started his own Pine mountain painting business with his partner,
Rod Hamlin, who knew nothing of this, of his dark side.

(27:58):
They're just house paintings. But he had to play place
his flag, so to speak. You know, a little town
of several thousand people, Groveland, near your seven. Everyone knows
a little about everybody else in Groveland, but they never
knew this. You know, he managed to just fall off
the face of the earth, so to speak, by moving
to Groveland. And he was an outdoorsman. Kerry Francis Post

(28:20):
was an outdoorsman, and he collected a group of guys
much younger that always called him the old man. Chris
Avery was one of them, Glenn Barnes and his step
son Mark Lover and others, and they'd go camping. They
you know, they'd go backpacking, mule packing whatever, horse packing
for for weeks. Here's some of the area and that's where,

(28:40):
you know, the old man taught them how to use
guns and how to make explosives and that sort of
thing and hang provisions and bear caches from in the trees,
and we had pictures of them doing just that. All
that information came in mighty handy when I started to solve.
As I was waiting for the FBI, I started to

(29:01):
see more anagram possibilities in these letters, and three of
them eventually, the ones that about Lake Tahoe, all led
as sick treasure maps right to a tree in the
separate CoA campra RV campground where we found, as you
probably know, justin where we found what we believe is

(29:24):
evidence that her bag of bones was boiled up in
a live bath, just like he did with all kinds
of animal five baths, l ye baths to boil up
the bones of animals and just have the nice white
skeletons hanging around his house in Groveland. Sadly, we believe
that's what he did to Donna Lass in September of

(29:45):
nineteen seventy. And then because he liked his prize and
because he liked to send his tonny letters, he put
her bag of bones up in that tree using a
painter's pulley that if they haven't cut down the tree,
but now you can still see the painter's pull right there,
fourteen yards high, as described in the probable anagram solutions

(30:06):
that I put together over the course of months before
we drop all the way up to Lake Tahoe to
see if those anagram solutions were really were sick treasure maps,
and they were. We were with a Coast Guard petty
officer and his wife and my friend Hans Smits, and
we just took the three maps and we took a
cumpass out cup us coordinates were matched. The petty officer

(30:27):
daily he says, look, that's a wind barb. You look
on the October nineteen seventy Halloween card. There's a strange
symbol on the left side. And I never knew who
it was, but he's a Coast Guard petty officer. The
first thing he did was solved like a fifty year
old case, he says, that's a wind barb. Well, it
indicates the prevailing win in a certain location. So when

(30:50):
we got to the dock of the Nastixie Petty Officer
Daily goes, Yep, that wind barb goes right down the
docks towards that RV campground. That is a win in
Bob direction. So we walked straight down. In June twenty fifteen,
we walked straight down the docks just like the couple
settings indicated and used magnetic north, straight down, and we

(31:11):
walked straight across the highway to the Lincoln Highway RV Park,
just as described in one of the three anagram solutions,
which you can read in ketching zod. Yeah, and you
could actually take those treasure maps and do the same thing.
And you go right to a very strange tree where
we leave it for years. Her bag of bones is

(31:31):
sitting up there. Now did it fall down? Apparently he
could have come back and got him, because as you
mentioned that we mentioned the top of the show, they've
just recovered Don Alas's skull. My sheriff's deputy in nineteen
eighty six made that discovery at the area of Highway
eighty and Highways twenty. I sure would like to see Jennifer.

(31:52):
I'd like to see that police report, but I don't
have it, and I don't want to speculate too much
more on what happened. But we said in June team
that he might have come back and gotten her his prize.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
Yeah, that was my whole thing when I was reading
about Donna Lass and I gotta I was talking to
jen about this the other day or actually earlier today.
The fact that they hung onto that because they knew
that forensic technology would advance that I think that is
really awesome. It seems like a rare occasion, but some

(32:26):
departments do do that. So my hat's off to him
for that. But the scall was found what's seventy miles away,
you said, right from where her car was found. So
this is for both of you, or you know, either
one of you, whatever the case is, What are some
of the prevailing theories? How did that skull end up

(32:47):
seventy miles away from her car? What do you guys
think happened there?

Speaker 3 (32:53):
It's like some people have said to me, well, I
guess it wasn't up that tree, because they found it
seventy miles away. The skull, and to that I can
simply say, I'd like to know what the condition of
the skull was. I'd like to also know if they
if the people who have the skull, the investigators would
simply if I may offer a suggestion test to see

(33:14):
if that skull had traces of l Ye love, because
that's what we believe happened to doune a lass. We
don't know how it got point A to point B.
You know, it could have been a camper found it
out of the tree, right the skulls. As one cadaver
dog searcher told me, the skulls tend to roll. We

(33:34):
know it was in the tree until at least nineteen
seventy five because of what the letter said and all that,
because he was bragging about it at that point. Go
see my product. This is how you do it, use
these treasure maps. But it was found in nineteen eighty six.
I don't know what happened in that period. Maybe he
came back and got it, Maybe he decided he wanted
to just dump it on the side of the highway.

(33:55):
I don't know. Jennifer take it from here.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
Well, I mean, I believe your anagram solutions are correct,
and her bones were up in that tree. But just
playing Devil's Advocate for the listeners that are going to
play Devil's Advocate, she so her car's recovered, right, So
she didn't drive herself seventy miles. It's about a ninety
minute drive over to the area where the school was found,
which is by the way near Lake Spalding. That's probably

(34:22):
the closest landmark on a map, and we don't know
the exact location the skull was found. They simply gave
us tho, you know, high or Interstate eighty and Highway twenty,
but it could have been you know, could have been
even a mile from there, and that was just the
closest intersection. But she didn't take herself there, right, So
even if her bones never did go up in the tree,

(34:43):
the whole thing still indicates foul play. I mean, I
guess she could have hitchhiked to that area and then
met with foul play it near Lake Spauding, or you know,
was met with some accident or something, but it just
seems unlikely. Why would you hitchhike if you have your
own car, and then you've got the person calling into
her work the day after she goes missing, saying she's

(35:05):
not going to be in because there's an illness in
the family. Well that was not true. Nobody in the family.
Nobody in her family was sick, and nobody in the
family made that call. So again, that indicates foul play
either way. I think the most likely scenario is that
she was abducted and murdered and at some point, at
least her skull was transported to that area. I've never

(35:29):
heard of a case where like a predator, you know,
even a bear or something, would drag a skull for
seventy miles and as the crow flies, it's a little
shorter than that, but it's still dozens of miles. Like
once the tissue and everything is off the skull, the
predators leave it alone. So I don't I don't think
that's really a possibility.

Speaker 3 (35:48):
On that note, Chin, I'll be contacting the Softly Tapa
police and giving them another copy of the book that's
been updated on Tuesday, after the New Year. And I
have a number of questions. One is if you could
please you know, and I don't think the answer anyone Okay,
this morning, I'm gonna ask the question anyway. Maybe they

(36:08):
might want to call back and check on this, because
if the skull is you know, the classically designed skeletons
that are hanging in science labs, they're all bleached. I
think they're not plastic, right, the actual they used this
process to get all the meat off the bone, so
to speak, and that's what we believe he did here,

(36:31):
so that skull would have traces of lie perhaps that
they could find, and that would lead them to believe
that Yeah, okay, she didn't take a live bath out
there in Highway eighty exactly. Yeah no, I don't know that,
because but I'm gonna suggest it to him. Take a look,
analyze the skull some more. That's not hard. And also, Jen,

(36:51):
according to the last sceneing the press, leason and things,
there was nothing else, no bones, nothing else, no clothes
with the skull. It was just a skull, right.

Speaker 2 (37:01):
That's what the articles say that are in the news,
that no other evidence was found along with the skull.
Now that doesn't mean that's one hundred percent true. You know,
law enforcement will sometimes withhold information about evidence for whatever reason.
So that's just what law enforcement has told the news agencies.
But it's probably true. I don't know why at this point,
if they found other evidence or bones, why they wouldn't

(37:22):
just reveal that. So, I mean, it is really curious.
It's like, where's the rest of her bones? Small bones? Yeah,
I get those being you know, distributed around and dragged
off by predators or whatnot. But I would expect that
if the whole skeleton was or body was disposed of
in whatever area, that you'd find the femurs, the large
bone in your thigh, and the pelvis somewhere, you know,

(37:45):
within a some kind of walkable radius. I wouldn't expect
to find a skeleton distributed over miles and miles unless
a human did that on purpose. Here's another thing for
those who haven't worked in death investigation, which is probably
most listener. A skull that's left out or ahead a body,
whatever that's left out in the elements and becomes skeletonized.

(38:06):
It's not bright white when you find it. The bones
are actually usually a brown color, So it would be
interesting to know what color visually this skull was. As
you said, if it's whitish, then that's not natural and
somebody did something to it to bleach it. If it's brownish,
then I would I would lean much more towards the
scenario that the skull laid out in the elements for

(38:29):
quite a long time. I don't know if they'll ever
give us that answer. The skull is found by a
sheriff's deputy, which I think is strange because law enforcement
isn't usually out prowling around in bushes or whatever, and
they're free while they're on duty, but in their free
time like looking for human bones. I find it's too
coincidental for me to believe that a share a person

(38:50):
in law enforcement just came across a human skull. I mean,
it's not impossible, but I find it really really unlikely.
So then I led to ask what or how did
this shareff stuffuty find the skull? Was a tip called
in or did they get a letter?

Speaker 1 (39:07):
That's exactly what I was wondering too. When I was
reading that, I'm like, so, dude was just randomly, Oh wow,
it's a skull.

Speaker 3 (39:15):
Ye.

Speaker 2 (39:15):
No, they're busy, like they have things to do when
they're on duty. So I probly they got a tip
or something which was with the Zodiac killer m O.

Speaker 3 (39:26):
And that would be in that police report nineteen eighty
six we've done. That's see correct, Probably it should be, Yeah,
it should be acting on a tip, right, And just
a little history about about Gary Francis Post, aka the
Zodiac killer. He you know, at the lake Bury ESA
attack in which he stabbed two people. He called that

(39:46):
in I want to report a double murder. The previous
killing uh in Lao he called in fourth July, I
want to report a double murder. He used the telephone
to give police tips. So if that's what happened here,
that's as love yea, because I think the same thing, like,
what in the heck is the sheriff's deputy out there

(40:08):
hooking around looking for for bones unless they got.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
A chip exactly. Yeah, I don't know how else it
would have come across it. I mean, it's also possible
a citizen did come across it and then they called.

Speaker 3 (40:21):
The sheriff's department.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
Sure, but you would think they would just say that. Yeah,
but who knows? So that that's a really it's something
that I really wonder about. I think Dale, this would
be a good time to give listeners the background on
Gary Post and his military service and how details of
that and why it's relevant to your findings.

Speaker 3 (40:43):
Okay, So here's what I had to put together a
police profile that we never aired because the FBI never
announced that they actually investigated the guy that we told
him about. And one of the police things in the
police profile was Gary Francis Post. And it gets to
as Jed, I think they're trying to lead on. It's like,
how would he know how to do the Cyprus? All right?

(41:03):
So I did a police profile while I was waiting
for the FBI to make the announcement that they never did,
and I put together information based upon a lot of
the information our whistleblower, Chris Avery, gave me, and then
I independently had to, you know, verify basic facts. And
it's important Post. We learned that Post was an ex

(41:24):
radar operator radar man who worked in Indiana at a
base and then up in Tully on the DW line,
the DO Line, which is the Siberia of the United
States Air Force so to speak. It's way up there
in Greenland. Gary Francis Post was trained as a radar man,
not just the spectrum we're infra red radar operators you know, work,

(41:48):
but also he was trained in cryptology and cyphering. Because
he was on the DO line, they were worried about
the Rusties, the Russians coming over, you know, are sending missiles,
and they had an inner accept messages that were you know,
in cipher and code, and so he was trained in ciphering.
Anagrams are a cipher and that's how he learned how

(42:12):
to do that. It's just basic ciphering. He also had
a terrible thing that happened to him, and he was
like just a your young man. He got in a
car accident with the best buddy. His best buddy died.
They ran into a cement overpass, I think in a
jeep and Garry Francis Post went through the windshield and

(42:33):
got serious scar on his forehead and was in the
hospital for months. And when he got out of the hospital,
he went to the base, the Indiana Radar radar base.
He was looking at and out in the front of
the base. According to his name was Hawthorne. He used
to work with Gary Francis Post. You know. I looked

(42:54):
up many of the people that worked within forty three
years ago and Air Force alumni files, and I talked
to Joe Hawthorne, I think his name was, and Joe
said that when Post got to Chris's buddy dies, then
when Post got back to the base, the radar base,
there was the jeep that had been erect when the
accident happened, and there was a sign that that's the

(43:15):
guy who ran the base, and obviously who ran the
radar base put a sign and said, don't be like
these airmen. Don't drink and dry. And he's instantly shamed,
and then quickly he's transferred to to the air base,
the radar station way up in the booties, where he
later told around the campfire, these younger men, these younger

(43:35):
hunters and all that they spoke pot and he told
the story about how that happened. And then once again
Hawthorne confirmed what Avery's story was about the accident. And
we later got a nineteen fifty nine newspaper article about
the accident naming Post, so that was confirmed. But then
Post would tell the younger men around the campfire that

(43:56):
for months all he did was look at a radar
screen and then got into the barren land, just snow,
ice and rock, and it really changed him, both of
those instid it's changed him. That's post words. Now once
again think about it. He was looking at a radar street,
a circle with a cross it's the zodiac symbol. Yes,

(44:19):
that's what he was looking at for months and so
it said it changed and then it comes back. And
he's stationed at Vandenburg Air Force Base. And in nineteen
sixty three senior cut day, this young young man and
young woman were brutally murdered uh Gaoda Galliota Beach near
Vandenburg Air Force Base. They found size ten Wingwalker boots,

(44:42):
boot marks the kind of Gary Francs sup post. We
have pictures of them wearing those Wingwalker boots that he
loves so much. That's what's at that scene. They traced
the bullet case Sings Jennifer to somebody who bought them
at Vandenburg base. They bought the actual elves at Vandenberg.
That's where posting station. Yes, and for years they were

(45:06):
suspecting that was a zodiacular case and they have a
right to do so. Flashboard nineteen sixty six, the Cherry
Joe Bates College co ed in Riverside. She's found nearly decapitated,
brutally murdered, and they found wing Walker's size ten boots
all around. They found a house painter's watch that had

(45:29):
been torn in the struggle. It had house paint on it.
Post was a house painter at that point. The watch
was apparently bought in a commissarra that's a military commissary.

Speaker 2 (45:39):
Well, there's a couple other things that I'll point out
that I learned from you. What is that when you
get stationed in Greenland, you back in that time, you
had to travel up there on a big boat. Well,
the big boat can't dock right on the shore, and
so they would take the airmen off the big boat
on little boats and take them the shore. And those
little boats were called Zodiac boats. Then with regards to

(46:04):
the radar screen, So the symbol that Zodiac used, you know,
the most people call it the crosshairs of a scope
or whatever. That's not what it is. And we know
that because the vertical and horizontal line lines that cross
each other within the circle, they extend past the edge
of the circular area. And in radar, because I also

(46:28):
learned this from you, But in radar, although the screen
does have a physical ending, there's actually no physical ending
to the coordinates or the information that a radar screen provides,
if that makes sense. So technically the lines go beyond
the circular part that you're looking at and so again,

(46:50):
I think that's why that symbol that he used in
all his letters is actually a radar screen, and he
purposely made those lines extend past the star as a clue.
But nobody picked up on that clue. But again, those
couple of things for me in his military experience just
it's circumstantial. But I mean, the more things that we

(47:12):
find out about this guy, the more we can't eliminate him,
and the more it would make sense for him to
have committed this.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
I agree totally. And that's that's always my thing. When
I start getting into I mean, really any case, I
mean a coincidence or two. Yeah, I get it, it happens.
But once you start getting into three, four, and five,
you know you got my attention. Because there's only so
many coincidences in one setting with one person, with different cases,

(47:41):
it all adds up exactly.

Speaker 3 (47:44):
Yeah, And just to your point, I want you to
know that what we tried to do was disprove this
over and over again. I police profiles.

Speaker 1 (47:53):
That's a lot of the thing too, is you have
so much confirmation bias out there, Like everybody has their
favorite suspect or person of interest or theory or whatever,
and they're so quick to discount somebody else's information because
they're one hundred percent sure they're the right one. So
the fact that you tried to disprove it just points

(48:17):
more towards the direction of, you know, the journalistic integrity factor.
It's like, hey, you know, I'm not out here trying
to prove my points, Like I tried to eliminate this
guy as a suspect or the person. It's like, have
you again, Yeah, And it's like you have to you
have to be able to look at people and say
have you done that, you know, because most of them

(48:38):
have not.

Speaker 3 (48:39):
Well, I'll tell you something at this point. What I
would just like to see is I have a number
of cold case detectives who are retired out with your
old friends, and they said, you know, if the FBI
simply could close the case right now, just the state
that there's a preponderance of evidence that Gary Francis Post
was a zodiactive or that that could do it. But

(49:00):
also if local district attorneys in the counties in which
the murders happened, if they simply look at this, they
have accordy to detect because they have the ability to
close the cases with a based upon the ponderance of evidence,
and they could close the case in South Lake Tahoe.
It's on a last they could close the case in
a Valeo and Napa and San Francisco. They just said,

(49:23):
you know what, there's a preponderance of evidence and it
would be case closed. And so that and Riverside as well.
That's my hope. But I will tell you right now,
after doing this now since December twenty fourteen, I'm retired
as an as an anchor reporter right two years now,
and sure i'd like to tell this story. And that's
why the book's going out, and I believe there will

(49:44):
be a documentary. I hope so, and we'll see from there.
But I'm moving out of my life. I've climbed out
of the rappit hole. Right. I'm learning how to play pickleball, right, Okay,
that's what I'm doing. And I I want listeners to
know that it's obvious it was an obsession, but that's
only because I was just trying to disprove it, and

(50:07):
because I was once one of the kids on the
bus that was threatened by this guy. And I let
that go, and I'm gonna let this go, Jenn, I promise,
I'm gonna let this go here, wrote shortly. But I
just got to get this book out and let folks
know that the details that we've been essentially well justin
you mentioned some of the things like that haven't been

(50:27):
released yet, right, you want to hear it? Yes?

Speaker 1 (50:29):
Yeah, So speaking on your book, let's go that direction.
What can people expect when they go to read your
book and some information that might not be out there
yet that they will find compelling.

Speaker 3 (50:44):
He used anagrams within antigrants he would use he would
use them as clues, right, easily soluble, and anagrams that
would identify himself. Right. We'll get to that in a minute.
But to your point, so get a piece of paper, folks,
get a piece of paper and a pencil or pen
and stand by. I lost all your listeners, says they're
sturring to the you know, the go get pieces of
paper right now, I'll go.

Speaker 1 (51:05):
They're hanging on, they're hanging on. I know they are.

Speaker 3 (51:08):
Okay, well, okay, So what the learn is As an
old radar man, he was all about the spectrum. He
left clues all about the spectrum. He wanted folks to
know that that was a radar screen. He left those
clues left and right. I'll take them. I'll show you
those as well. Jen to Justin's point here, what strikes

(51:30):
you as stuff that has not been covered before that
we talk about now, well, I want to.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
Say or preface that my answer to that with this.
What was most compelling to me about your book was
the solving of the anagrams. And what you discovered is
that all the taunting letters Zodiac sent in are actually anagrams,
and they have to be decoded. And because you use
the same methodology for I don't know how many of
you done now fifteen or something where you've found solutions anyway,

(51:58):
Benny A. Baker's does okay, many using the same methodology
where you remove the letters of his name and then
you're rearranged the rest and you end up using every
single letter and sometimes numbers on the punctuation as well,
into a perfect anagram. That's not coincidence. You can't. There's

(52:19):
no other explanation for that happening thirteen times unless it's correct.
I mean, statistically, it's impossible for there to be any
other explanation for it. I mean, you have consulted mathematicians
on this. So that's the most compelling part to me. Now,
you have publicly released a few of your anagram solutions,

(52:40):
namely the ones that led you to the tree for
the Donna Last case, but your book has a whole
bunch more and I don't know which ones you want
to reveal today, but I know the one that was
most striking to me if we want to talk about it,
but the Pulse Doll class message.

Speaker 3 (52:57):
Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
Do you know which taunting letter that anagram or that
solution was in.

Speaker 3 (53:05):
Yeah, you know, folks, And I don't have all my
note yeah in front of me right now. I will
just say that there were three letters sent around nineteen
seventy four, once again to the newspapers. What you're about
to read is in one of them.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Yes, and so well, something I also have to preface
this with this. So something else you learned is that
Gary Post had known Paul Stein, and Paul Stein was
a cab driver that was shot to death in San Francisco.
And we know that that's linked to Zodiac because Zodiac
sent in a piece of Paulstein's bloody shirt with a
taunting letter. So then you found out later in your
research that he and Paul Stein knew each other and

(53:42):
they'd had a falling out. And so one part this
is just really two sentences of one large anagram that
you solved after the first line of Yankee Doodle Do
or Die, which is yes, themo that there's usually a
song lyric or title starting off janigram. The next line,
word for words spelled perfectly with punctuation is the Paul

(54:07):
Stein comma Donna Lass killings period. One was business kamma,
the other was a crime. I mean, how else you
can't ignore that that turned into a perfect anagram, And
it's saying one was business meaning Paul Stein because they
had a falling out and Post was mad at him,
and the other was a crime meaning Donna Lass. It

(54:29):
wasn't like a personal thing. And then the anagram goes
on with a bunch more information. But to me, that
was one of the ones where I threw my hands up.
I'm like, this has to be correct, this has to
be correct.

Speaker 3 (54:40):
And once again you know just my probable anagram solutions. Well,
very specific to the terrible past at Garry Francis Post,
we got sworn statements from his sellings and the twelve
Magan of jail, which once my letters started coming. Yeah,
I actually wrote letters to the serial killer, but he

(55:02):
was in jail, so I thought I'm okay. So I
started writing letters to Gary Prince's Post when he was
in jail for spouse elder abuse, throw it, nearly killing
his wife because he was she was about to reveal
that he was the Zodiac killer all those years later,
sweetest can be. Mary Post was God rest her salt.
But dumb is a rock. That's what I was told.
Mary Post was a sweet person, but she kept secrets,

(55:25):
his secrets. But when my letters came to the jail,
just to corroborate the Paul Steine Donald last thing, when
my letters from the antists. When my letters started showing
up at the twelve County jail, the cell anks who
didn't know anything about the old man's past, much younger man,
they told me later on the phone they called me
because they had my number. There in the letters, Post

(55:48):
read my first letter talking about Donald, asked and Paul
Steine asking questions, asking, I want to eat your side
the story a little bit, He screamed the letters. He
screamed the thought phrases like.

Speaker 2 (55:59):
He figured it.

Speaker 3 (56:00):
He told the cops. You could hear hear all over
the jail, right and for hours he read the letters
one by one, I actually said, eventually a half dozen,
trying to get his interview with him, and the first
one though, after all that, he ripped him up and
went to sleep, tired, exhausted. So of course the cellmates,
James Gardner and Aaron Jess, they took the letter and

(56:23):
they put it back together, and they read the letter,
and from that moment on they started peppering the old
man with questions and the old man in sworn statements
I letter got from these cellmates as well as Chris Avery.
Sworn statements can be found in the Twolomeee County court
system under Judge Segerstrom in the case of Gary Francis Post,
which I turned over to him the letters. Essentially, he

(56:46):
told him that he murdered Donna Lass because she had
a run in with his older brother Steve. I don't
know the nature of that, but that's what he told me.
He told Mary Post that. Eventually he also said he
murdered Paul Stu, the cab driver, because he still drugs
and money from it, so he knew it. So that
was coroboration to the anagram solutions.

Speaker 2 (57:06):
Jed, Yes, definitely. And there's so many more. I mean,
there's we would have to spend many hours going through
all of them, but that's all in the book. I
just strongly believe once people read read your book, which
details your entire process over the last eight nine years,
they'll understand why we believe so strongly in your work.
I mean, and I challenge anybody to come up with

(57:28):
an alternate solution. I mean, and tell me how you've
got thirteen or fifteen perfect anagrams. How are you going
to explain that away? And with messages that led you
to a probable evidence site, and actually multiples multiple probable
evidence sites. The problem is it's decades later the evidence
is gone, right, but all the compass headings and the

(57:50):
directions and all that stuff led you to places that
are described in the anagrams, and you get there and
you find what you're supposed to find. So, I mean,
I don't know how any I don't know how it
can be explained away.

Speaker 3 (58:04):
Yeah. Well, so okay, folks, do you have hen paper ready? Okay?
Just an example how he would use smaller anagrams that
you then have to use all the letters in the
bigger anagrams, but he used these clues as clues. I'm
gonna I'm gonna thank David Pincher. My three years after
starting this because I did not want want to be
tainted by seeing the movie. I finally saw the movie

(58:26):
Zodiac and it was a brilliant film. And as I'm
watching it, knowing only know about Post, I thought to myself,
Oh my god, David Pincher is the director. He's doing
a story about Kerry Francis Post. He doesn't even know
it yet. At the end of the movie they named
the other suspect, but you know, but the first half
of the movie it's like right out of case file.
So you bet you're describing, you're actually naming. David Pincher

(58:48):
didn't know it at the time, but an anagram form
he named Garry Francis Post as a Zodiac killer. So
Hercus Folks hand paper put in the movie Zodiac and
the very start us see as Santana's playing solo sacrifice
because so many sacrifices there sold to try to catch
this guy. That was a very good catch by David
Fincher to have that soundtrack that you see a postal

(59:10):
truck pull up in front of the chronicle post postal truck,
and you see the mail being let out, the envelopes
of mail, and then you see the mail being sent
to the newsroom or to the letter opener. And on
the top you see please rush to editor on the
player that they're focusing on. Please rush to editor, folks,

(59:33):
if you just please write that down, please rush to editor.
Back then, if somebody wanted to send a letter to
the editor, they just simply say editor, say it. This
one was specific. Please rush to editor. Then now below
you write author is elder Post with the knee of
the end. Of course, elder means an older, smart guy,

(59:55):
a mister. So now you can take your pen and
you can strike off corresponding letters of both those lines
all the way through. As I keep talking, you can
go ahead and keep doing it. No letters are used twice.
All of them are used as you keep doing those
kind of letters that those kind of mini anagrams are
found everywhere. He's naming himself post. This is a zodiac

(01:00:18):
speaking that famous line. That's a mini anagre. If memory
serves he was a radar man, that's a that's a
g I right, that's that's what you call him in
the army and the air force. Gis government issue, right, yes?
How is G? How does G? I ask citizen post
with any on the end, that's how you can get
out of this is a zodiac speak. Go to the

(01:00:40):
car door Lake Berryessa. He puts a hood on, stabs
two people. One dies. Then afterwards he goes back up
to their car, their little Carmen Gia, and on the
side of the door writes the dates of his killings.
Because this is this was September of sixty nine, so
far from that point he killed people in lovers laying

(01:01:03):
of Innitia Balao. Those killings were noted in the numbers, right,
But he also put Valayo, and he also puts set.
All the other numbers are numbers, but he wrote sept September,
right that that's when the killing is happening. Are right
there by nine. I can go into that being an

(01:01:24):
anagram itself, but I just want to show you this.
You've heard the first two posts, and if I'm in
both of them, take a look. You take the ohm
Valao and you decide. He decided he wanted to put
sept and set the number that's post. He did this
over and over again. So have you finished your anagram
solution author his other posts? Congratulations, folks, you just solved

(01:01:46):
the zodiac killer kicks.

Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
It's a perfect anagram. Yeah, there's you know, like you said,
just to reiterate, a perfect anagram is where each letter
is only used one time and there's no remaining letters
left over. Please rush the author is perfect for is
the perfect anagram for author's elder post.

Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
So David Fincher had to focus in on that that
leather envelope right there, and that peas rush the editor
Because I think Fincher has a sixth sense. I think
he's psyched. He didn't even know it, but he solved
this udiacular case in the movie. It's It's bizarre. This
is a it is a very strange story, but it
has the charm of being true.

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
Oh absolutely, I agree. And speaking of which, when uh
when does your book come out? And what does the
near future hold for you?

Speaker 3 (01:02:33):
Dale? Check Amazon in a matter of days. There are
certain things I'm not good at. One is technology.

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Yeah, we found that out earlier, didn't.

Speaker 3 (01:02:43):
We have to have to figure out exactly the last
final things you can do to publish online. So I'm
about to do it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
So and what the what the future hope for me
besides pickle, besides bad call? That's fair?

Speaker 3 (01:02:58):
You know. You know what wonderfully is my family has
been so supportive for so long. And the book is
dedicated to my wife, Patty, so had to put up
with this. And in the book you'll learn you'll learn
that we quickly figured out that we had to separate
our lives. Patty and I, you know, we'll talk about it.
But she said, I can't talk about zodiac all the

(01:03:19):
time Dale, and I said, okay, So we created the bubble.
I had to ask permission from Patty. Patty, can I
talk to you about this new part case? She goes, no,
I'm in the bubble. Could you come out of the
bubble for a bit? And she goes, okay, it's really important,
and that's how we made thirty eight years of marriage work.
So you know, and I hope that you know when
this book is out and all that, and they saw

(01:03:40):
that they actually closed the case that we can just
float away to some vacation spot in the bubble together.

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
Absolutely, and I think we need to circle back around
to the DNA and the forensics a little bit because
we mentioned it earlier, but we didn't get into all
it's been done in the past couple of years on
that because of course all the critics are like, hush out,
where's the DNA, and it's like, well, we're working on it.
The police had the DNA and they got rid of it,

(01:04:07):
so it shouldn't really be on us to do this,
but we did it, you know. You and Tom approached
me because forensics is my background. They said, how do
how are we going to get Gary Post DNA? He's dead?
And so the first attempt or it wasn't an attempt
because we ended up getting it, but one of his
neighbors ended up with Gary Post camping matt his blow
up little mattress thing or whatever that he would take camping.

(01:04:31):
So we paid out of pocket to have it sent
to DNA lab in Utah, and back technology was used
to extract what ended up being three partial DNA profiles.
One is a stronger partial than the other two, so
we figured that was probably Gary Posts, but we didn't
know for sure because we don't have his DNA to
compare it to. So then Dale and Tom said, okay, Jen,

(01:04:53):
how do we what do we do to compare it
to confirm that that's his, And they said, well, the
best shot is to get get a DNA sample from
one of his male living relatives. Well, I think they
all tried to do that a while ago, or contact
them or whatever, and they're not cooperative. But we you know,
we had a team member that traveled to an unspecified

(01:05:14):
location and over the period of a couple weeks developed
a source who was able to get us some items
that belonged to one of Gary Post's male relatives. So
we paid again out of pocket to have the DNA
extracted from those items. Now we know which of the
three original profiles belongs to Gary Post because it has
all the markers in common with the male relative. So

(01:05:37):
then we approach Riverside PDE because they have hair from
the Sherry Joe Bates crime scene that probably belongs to
a killer in recent years. They stated they got a
DNA profile from those hairs, and we asked them to
compare their profile to a Gary Posts and they refuse
to do it. One thing I'm hoping with pushing all
of that information out on the media and your book

(01:05:58):
releasing is at PA, this will make people angry that
a police department is literally obstructing justice when it could
possibly solve a case or at least rule out a
potential suspect, because that's just as important as finding the
actual suspect. So if that makes you mad, Tagdale and
his book on Twitter and all the social media and
also Tiger Riverside PD. They're on there because it is

(01:06:21):
really outrageous the expense and the time that we've gone
to and they won't put two pieces of paper side
by side and tell us if they match or not.
So we have made great efforts to get some DNA,
you know, something solid in terms of forensic evidence to
prove or even disprove if Post was involved in the
Zodiac murders. So I don't I better not hear any
critics complaining about that, because you need to complain of

(01:06:44):
Riverside PD and the other law enforcement agencies about the
DNA side now, because we did our party.

Speaker 4 (01:06:50):
You know, yeah, hi, now though, really think about it.
You know, case Breakers made the release back in late spring.

Speaker 3 (01:07:01):
I think it was May. It was May, you think,
So yeah, the two things. One, an FBI source came
forward and said, hey, Post has been the main suspect
arguably the main suspect of the the Zodia killing case
Assistance twenty sixteen Win. As I mentioned earlier, he threw
his wife down the staircase after the FBI had knocking

(01:07:22):
in the first place. And two, the case breakers have
delivered the DNA of Gary Francis Post two River Southeast.
Would you please compare it with the DNA of your
killer that you'd used twice to exonerate other suspects, right, Jen.

Speaker 2 (01:07:37):
I believe so, yes. And on top of that, yeah, yeah,
we also got the cartridge casings and bullets that belonged
to Post, hundreds of them, and there may be some
ballistics testing that or comparison that could be done between those.
And I think it's San Francisco PD that have a
cartridge casing from the Paul Stein shooting. Don't quote me

(01:07:57):
on that for sure enough to double check, but they've
also refused to cooperate and take those. So we are trying,
like listeners, we are trying to get solid forensic evidence
of some sort to prove Dale's findings. And we'll keep trying,
and you know, we'll just we'll have to just stay
on them.

Speaker 3 (01:08:18):
I'd like to ask a favor of your listeners. I'm
sure Jen would agree if you could contact the Riverside
Police Department in some fact knock on their door, so
to speak, and simply ask, what are the results of
your comparison of the case breakers DNA Harry Prance's post
with the DNA of your killer that you have used
twice to exhaustit, suspect, what are the results? Could you

(01:08:38):
please release that? It's been now since about six eight months,
so please, if you would reside, just let us know.
And if it doesn't match, we'd like to know that too.
I think it's going to match, and I'm thinking you
just don't want to talk about it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:52):
Yeah, see that being the case, a lot of publicity
going on there, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
Yeah. In another note, I know Dale you dismissed the
Scherry Joe Bates case for a long time because they
were saying it wasn't linked to Zodiac. But then recently
you went and looked at the letter. There was a
letter sent in by the killer in the Scherry Joe
Bates case, and you started looking at it and what
did you find.

Speaker 3 (01:09:15):
The Scherry Joe Bates letter is called the confession letter
for a reason. It turns out because in it I
learned recently that Gary Francis Post confesses twice in the letter. Now,
that letter always scared the crap out of me because
it's tight, the only Zodiac letter that was ever typed,
and it was typed all the way through and started
with the confession. But I noted something he had done

(01:09:39):
was again reverse engineering. He had done again and again
years later that this was nineteen sixty six. So he
was using some of his mo mos operandi in letter
writing to confess. And at the end of the letter,
the only ellipsis three dots that he uses is right there,

(01:10:00):
and I don't have it in front of me. Sorry,
it's like beware, I'm stalking your girls. Now ce see
Riverside and police. Those those sections. He uses the definition
of an ellipses to say something that's not seen, that
is inferred, right, And so all I did was take
the end of the of the letter those phrases, those
words after the ellipses, just like I had done solving

(01:10:23):
other anagrams years before. Using that that that's a clue, right,
And it comes out that he says his name, Gary
Francis Post, the clown Prince of crime.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
And the panagram right, yeah, nothing left over?

Speaker 3 (01:10:38):
Yeah. And the clue to it is just like he's
done years before. You go to the envelope and the
only section that he actually writes right is the address,
and that without going into it, he mentions his name
as citizen post again is a new zip code? Always
use zip code citizen post again, just like he done

(01:11:00):
years before, even referred to himself as a citizen in
the nineteen seventy four letters. So you know, when you
do the reverse engineering and you know what you're looking for,
it still takes a long time, but you can do it,
and you don't have to do the whole confession letter
to see that he confesses twice exactly. That's a good
reason I think for the exactly police to actually take

(01:11:21):
a look at the DNA. Yes, DNA, we can spell
that out easy. They've got it right now, DNA.

Speaker 2 (01:11:28):
And like you said, even if it doesn't match, just
let us know so we can move on.

Speaker 5 (01:11:33):
I mean, well, you know, I'm sure you know a
couple of people have thought of your listeners, like, wow,
if they've had this press release with the DNA spelled
out since June and they haven't said anything would if
it was wrong.

Speaker 3 (01:11:47):
Wouldn't they have like said, case Breakers is wrong, go away?

Speaker 2 (01:11:51):
You would think so, because I'm sure they would love
to say that. Yeah, so, yeah, that's a good point.
I didn't think about it that way.

Speaker 3 (01:12:00):
I mean, and you know, if they if they got
the DNA, and that's what that's what case Breakers really
focused on, is because the DNA from the cab driver
killing inspector of wind coub years ago told the Chronicle
that a lot of what they have there is partials.
It's hard to do anything with partials. But they actually
did try to compare it with post DNA. The inspectors

(01:12:20):
actually went, acting on our information, up to the Towney
County jail and interviewed the post in jail and took
a DNA swab and then tried to compare with their partials.
But they couldn't make a match because they're think about ourselves. Second, folks,
DNA from a cab, how did they isolate the cab?
How many that much DNA is in a cab? Right?

(01:12:41):
That's difficult? Yes, right, yeah, but Riverside and quite the
Casebreaker's credit and Tom Colbert's credit and everybody you have
DNA from the killer in the clutched hands, the hair
in the clutched hand of Sherry Joe Bates, and so
that's the killer's DNA and they know Gary Francis post DNA.

(01:13:02):
We sure like to see the results of that comparison, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:13:06):
Yeah, that's all we're asking for.

Speaker 1 (01:13:09):
Literally, not asking for much either. Nope, all right, well, uh,
Dale and Jen, it has been a pleasure. I'm glad
that we finally got Dale on because me and Jen,
well we've done a couple episodes talking about you.

Speaker 3 (01:13:23):
Dale.

Speaker 2 (01:13:24):
Yeah, it all good things.

Speaker 1 (01:13:27):
It was all good things. But I'm all we finally
got you on, man, and thank you here in the
next few days, which we're recording this on the thirtieth
of December, so yeah, first week of January, look out
for the book. I highly suggest it. I've been on
this ride since the beginning and well since I think
about twenty twenty is when I got in with the

(01:13:49):
Case Breakers. But but yeah, I'm I'm eager to read it.
I think it's going to be a great and I
think it'll I don't know, I think it'll open a
lot of eyes for people who are into the yet case.

Speaker 3 (01:14:00):
So thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:14:02):
Yeah, I appreciate that Dale wrote this book as he
went along. It's not like he just sat down in
the past year and wrote everything. So readers will find that,
you know, in the beginning, he may have been offul
you know, in the wrong direction on something, but it
gets corrected later on. And that's how any investigation goes anyhow,
I mean, investigations evolved. You make mistakes in the beginning

(01:14:23):
or look in the wrong direction, but then that helps
you ultimately look in the correct direction. So just know
that that book was written over the period of what
nine years, I guess Dale.

Speaker 3 (01:14:35):
Yeah, and I still have my sense of here work,
I know amazingly. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:14:41):
So, but thanks for hosting us.

Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
Justin of course, thank you. I've been looking. I've been
looking forward to.

Speaker 2 (01:14:47):
It for a while, so it's my posited to see
what all this brings.

Speaker 1 (01:14:50):
Yeah, definitely, definitely, But yeah, I suppose until next time,
I hope you guys have a good rest of your Saturday,
and thank you. Yeah, yeah, don't stay stay out of trouble,
you know, tomorrow night, everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:15:06):
Yeah, Happy New Year, Happy everybody, Thanks for listening.

Speaker 1 (01:15:11):
Hopefully in twenty four we can maybe get some more
information on zodiac case, and you know, let people concentrate
on other stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:15:18):
I guess absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:15:23):
And pickleball yeah, I forget. And golf. Thank you, Justin Oh,
You're quite welcome and I will talk to you guys
later