War Against the Mafia - Interview w/ Dan Dorsky and Mike Campi - Mysterious Circumstances

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to this episode of Mysterious Circumstances podcast. I'm your host, Justin.
This episode is an awesome one. I got to interview
former federal prosecutor Dan Dorsky and former FBI agent Mike
Campy about their book entitled War Against the Mafia. How
a Prosecutor and an FBI Agent Devastated the New York Mob.

(00:24):
It is a true story about two law enforcement figures
who led some of the most relentless and successful attacks
on organized crime in American history. I had the opportunity
to sit down and talk with Dan and Mike about
some of the details how it all happened, a little
bit about their background, and they also share some funny

(00:45):
stories about their time working against the mafia. If you
are interested in the book, I have all of the
information in the episode description. So this interview is probably
one of the favorites that I've done at this point.
It is so interesting and for those of you who

(01:05):
are into the mafia and gangsters, I.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
Know that you are, You're gonna love it too, So
sit back and I hope you enjoy.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
Hey, everybody, Welcome to Mysterious Circumstances podcast. I am your host,
Justin and I am joined by two awesome authors, and
you guys love this kind of content. I am joined
by Dan Dorsky and Mike Campy, and one is a
former federal prosecutor, the other one is a former FBI agent,
and they are responsible for bringing down so many people

(01:46):
in the MOB. I was reading through your guys's credentials
and I figured I would let you guys introduce yourselves.

Speaker 3 (01:53):
Dan, would you like to go first?

Speaker 4 (01:55):
For sure? Thanks Justin, and hello to your listeners. So yeah,
I'm a former federal prosecutor based in New York focused
on organized crime. Prosecuted members of all five crime families,
the Genevie's, Gambino, Banano, Colombo, and Luke Zy at a
fairly high level. Partnered with Mike on some stuff that

(02:18):
could be viewed as fairly historic, and I'm eager to
share much of that with you and your listeners.

Speaker 3 (02:23):
How about you, Mike?

Speaker 5 (02:24):
Again, I was an FBI agent my career. I did
some white collar crime, some public corruption, but the majority
of my career focused on organized crime. And I used
the skill set from doing white collar crime investigations in
these investigations, and I addressed numerous members of all five
families in organized crime with regards to the evidence I developed,

(02:47):
and I enjoyed arresting them. My favorite movie, I told
dan Is it's a wonderful life with Jimmy Stewart and
the impact you have on other people's lives. So taking
these gangsters off the street, to me was saving others
from the treachery involving these individuals. And there were a
lot of these individuals that were.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
Arrested outstanding, and I was reading that you guys both
got into this for very different reasons. If we could,
can you talk a little bit about what made you
want to go in this direction with your career or
even specifically just to try to take down mafia members
or members of Lacosinostra.

Speaker 5 (03:29):
When I was in high school, math was my strongest subject,
and my guidance counselor thought that I should pursue counting
in college, and after about three years of that, I
realized that this is not what I want to do
in my life. I do remember my friends knew that
I didn't particularly care for this. It just seemed extremely boring.

(03:51):
And there was a publication in either Newsweek or Time
back in the day that cited the likelihood that college
graduates were working in the capacity of what they studied
in school five years after graduation. And so when they
showed me that article, they laughed and I immediately dropped accounting.

(04:12):
But I subsequently learned about a year later at a barbecue,
my parents wanted me to meet somebody. They called me
over and it was an FBI agent, and he basically
described at that time that the FBI was interested in
accountants and lawyers, and then I should just go back
and pick up the additional credits. Only had a few

(04:32):
courses to take, and if I was hired as an
FBI agent that I would not have to necessarily work
why call a crime investigations or in the capacity of
an accountant. You can work any number of things. So
that interested me again. In college, I wanted to do something.
I almost joined the military. If it wasn't for me

(04:55):
playing rugby and wrestling in college, I probably would have
went off to the military terry because of the accounting.
It's just there are factors that sort of overlap, and
I just think it was meant to be, and i'd
gotten when I got in the FBI again. My first
office was in Cincinnati, and I laughed because in the

(05:16):
book there's some funny stories about that. One I didn't
know I had an accent when I got to Ohio.
And the other was they gave jaywalking tickets and I
hadn't heard of that since I was like six seven
years old, So there are some funny stories about it.
I thoroughly enjoyed Cincinnati, you know, working there, but I
knew it was just a two year hitch and then

(05:37):
I'd get transferred to what they call a top ten office.

Speaker 4 (05:40):
How about you, Dan, Yeah, So I grew up in
New York City. It's kind of it was kind of
an open secret that there was a mafia that was
very powerful and very destructive. My father would talk to
me about it from time to time. I also grew
up on to the civil rights era, where that was
an active conversation around the dinner table, and I just

(06:03):
had this thought of the world has a lot of problems,
and I want to try to help. And I wasn't
quite clear about how to do that, but I wanted
to do something to try to make the country better.
I also grew up in my bedroom reading Batman comic books, Superman,
things like that, and I just had this completely naive
view that there were good guys out there and there
were bad guys, and you could pick your side and

(06:24):
maybe work on the side of good guys. So that
drove me the law together. I also heard from my
dad this story about an uncle of mine who had
been victimized by the mafia, and that made an impact
on me because it made me feel bad for him,
but also for others in that situation. And there were
so many others who were just defenseless against a very

(06:47):
powerful and brutal gang and they needed support.

Speaker 6 (06:51):
So all that drove me to law school.

Speaker 4 (06:53):
And then in law school, I wasn't quite clear where
I was going to go, but you know, something in
this general area. And then Rudy Giuliani was at the
time chief federal prosecutor in New York. He came to
speak to my law school and he had done the
Commission case, or was doing the Commission case at the time,
which was a takedown of the bosses of the families.
He's also doing some white collar stuff and taking down

(07:13):
corrupt Wall Street executives, and it just clicked for me. There, Wow,
there's a job where they will pay you to chase
bad guys and help your country, and that became my focus.

Speaker 3 (07:24):
That is outstanding.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
And you have actually tried more cases against the mafia
than anyone else, haven't.

Speaker 4 (07:30):
You any other federal prosecutor. There's no official box score
or a card, but I've spoken to many others who
were kind of experts in this field, and nobody is
aware of anybody who did more trials. And I'm not
aware of anybody who did more trial's constantly on trial.
When I was a federal prosecutor, just from trough to
trough to troll, I was just known as the guy

(07:51):
you hand a trial to and won them all.

Speaker 1 (07:54):
Mike, you actually led some takedowns. So can you tell
us about some of your big cases? And probably I
don't know some of the people that you ended up
I guess meeting in your days in the FBI.

Speaker 5 (08:08):
Yeah. So again, I had a variety of organized crime cases.
When I first got to New York, it was labor racketeering.
I was assigned again when I was in Cincinnati. My
white collar crime supervisor, when I had received my orders,
asked me do I want to work white collar? Because
it was as though he was going to coordinate or
facilitate a transfer to a specific squad or area, and

(08:32):
at that time the Commission case was in the news.
So I had asked, I said, you know what, it
seems like organized crime could be very interesting, and so
I'd be interested in that. I was assigned to the
New York Division, to a squad that at that time
was doing labor racketeering investigations. So there was a lot
going on at that time. As matter of fact, the squad,

(08:54):
basically the case agent on the squad was addressing the
arrest of the Banano boss and underboss at that time,
Phil Ristelli and Joe Messino, and they were severed from
the Commission case and were prosecuted in the Eastern District
of New York. And that was sort of an interesting
We cover a lot of the details in the book.

(09:15):
There were some search warrants conducted. I participated in the
Apparently it was the Mover's Union, the Corrupt Movers Union
locally fourteen, and they were attached to that indictment. And
we had gotten information the case agent that they were
shaking down the members of that union to come to
a bar on the West side of Manhattan to contribute

(09:37):
to their defense fund. I offered they were looking at
how to do a search warrant, and I offered to
go in as though I was just lost looking for
buddies that I played rugby with, guys that were from
multiple states, some lived in Manhattan, and this bar was
set in a neighborhood that there weren't many bars, and
so we just walked in. Me and another agent sat

(09:58):
at the bar, and the bartender came up, you know,
at point gave us some beers and then asked if
we're part of the union, and we're like, no, I
play rugby. I got some buddies that I'm supposed to
meet with. This seems to be the bar that they identified.
Basically the next three hours we drank for free. I
got on the phone to call the squad to give
them the information of what I was observing. As part

(10:21):
of the shakedown. There was a sign in the back
thank you for your contribution that were over years in
the bathroom of guys that were pissed off that they
were contributed had to pay defense funds for the guys
that were ripping off the union. It was a very
comical moment, and again it was an interesting time, but
eventually the squad changed from labor acketeering to focus on

(10:44):
a specific organized crime family. Initially it was the Colombo
family and then subsequently was the Genoese family. I wanted
a case of my own. I subsequently did research open
an investigation on this individual, Niki de blond Fristacci, who
was an old time gang. He was well liked by
Chin Gigante, and Chin placed him looking over this Jimmy Aida,

(11:07):
who was conducting in the capacity of originally the acting consiglia,
but then it was officially the conciglire, and Nikki was
the conduit to Chin regarding how Jimmy was conducting himself.
So that was one of my favorite investigations. It was
more complex because of the bureaucracy aspect of it, but

(11:29):
it took a few years and Jimmy Iida is currently
doing life in prison and a bunch of people the
acting administration, Barney Blomo, this guy Mickey Demino Generoso was
the acting underboss. So there was a lot of details
that evolved in that investigation that gave me a real
sound footing going forward with other investigations.

Speaker 1 (11:50):
What made you go from Colombo to the Genevese family.

Speaker 5 (11:53):
We became the Colombo family after you know, when you
do labor racketeering investigations, there's multiple overlaps with the various
LCN families. So rather than arguing who gets to do
what case, they just assigned us the Colombo family to investigate.
And we have what we call control files, and so
I wanted my own case, and I went back to

(12:16):
the original volume of the Colombo family and just did
a review of who the power was as it evolved,
and I identified this Carmae Cesse and Bobby Zambardi as
two guys that I wanted to focus on. Carmie Cess
it became a very valuable, well very respected associates, a
soldier to Capitols who consider the air of the Colombo family,

(12:40):
and they were involved in a war. And eight months
later our squad changed to Geneviez and they took three
agents and placed them on a squad where the Banano
family was being investigated and supervisors were overseeing two LCN families.
So I started the same process with the Geneees. That'
where I focused on Nicki de Blonde. So it was

(13:02):
sort of an eight month window. I thought I had
a good focus at Cooperator Intersessa. You know, there was
a lot there but you know, it was like starting over.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
Again, Dan, for people who do not know who the
Chingagante is. You had some obstacles, right, I mean, can
you give can you give listeners like a brief overview
of why this guy is? I mean, I don't want
to say smart, I don't want to say stupid. But
he is one of the more interesting bosses in the

(13:34):
longevity of him as well. He came from the old
school and he lasted a long time as a boss.
But I don't think people understand a lot that he
basically he acted like he was crazy all the time.
I can't recall specifically how many years he would put
on that act. You know, he'd be shuffling around in
the streets. But can you talk a little bit about

(13:54):
how all that came about and some of the obstacles
you faced with him?

Speaker 6 (13:58):
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 4 (13:59):
I mean, there's there's so much there, but from fifty
thousand feet up and then we can.

Speaker 6 (14:04):
Zoom in if you liked.

Speaker 4 (14:05):
Vince Giguanty, known as the Chin or the Odd Father,
was the boss of the gen VI's crime family, which
is one of the five families in New York. It
is recognized as the Rolls Royce for lack of a
better term, of organized crime. It's the most powerful criminal
organization in America, most secretive, most formidable, most respected and feared.

(14:29):
And he was the boss of that crime family for decades.
The technique that he used, which is straight out of
a comic book, I mean, it's absurd. I always viewed
it that way, and yet it worked. It kept them
out of jail for decades. Was he simply stated that

(14:49):
he was crazy. He had psychiatrists. I'm sure some on
the payroll, some who he fooled, because it's very hard
to tell if somebody spaking his daughter's actually come out
and said he used to just watch TV shows and
he'd mimic what he saw on TV. And he just
kind of dribbled at the mouth, walked around Greenwich Village
in pajamas and acted like he was nuts. To law enforcement,

(15:11):
to agents, to prosecutors. It was absolutely apparent that this
was all a silly act. But the psychiatrists, who were
the so called experts on who was actually crazy and
who isn't testified by I don't know, the dozens that it
wasn't an act and that it was all real and
real and all legit, and it worked for him for

(15:32):
year after year after year after year after year. And
he started that act, by the way, I think it
was in the late sixties early seventies, when he'd been
arrested for bribing the police department in Old Tapan, New Jersey.

Speaker 6 (15:47):
Where one of his families lived.

Speaker 4 (15:49):
I say one of because he also had a second
family on the Upper East Side of New York that
lived in a mansion there or a townhouse. So that's
who he is, what his act was. And then in
terms of obstacles, yeah, for law enforcement, the major obstacle,
it was really three obstacles. One is the overcoming the

(16:09):
psychiatrist so called experts who said he's crazy, and judges
have to defer to that to a degree. Second obstacle
was if you said his name is you and you
and I just did justin there was a death sentence
for that, so it was known if you say his name,
you will in all likelihood be killed for it. So

(16:30):
mobsters were very very careful not to say his name.
Sometimes they mess up, but very very rarely. And the
third major obstacle was his absolutely utter paranoid secrecy. So
whereas your listeners are probably familiar with. Sometimes mobsters get
captured on tape. The chin did not get captured on tape.
He was intercepted in wiretaps in the eighties, and it

(16:52):
was like listening to a chimpanzee trying to speak English
of the zoo.

Speaker 6 (16:56):
You hear things like that.

Speaker 4 (16:59):
He just make god old noises because he suspected and
he was right that the FBI was listening in. Very
hard to put a case together with all those obstacles.

Speaker 5 (17:07):
I mean it was the two wives both had the
name olympiads to that. Yeah, that was what was unusual
when you found, you know, the second wife. They both
named Olympia. I mean, I don't know anyone named Olympia
other than Chinn's two wives.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
Did the two families know about each other?

Speaker 5 (17:26):
Yeah, we came to know each other.

Speaker 4 (17:28):
Yeah, right, and very convenient for him because he could
call either of the women and then not have no work.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
Absolutely Dan I noticed also Sammy the Bolgirvano brought up.
I have done an episode about him. Very interesting guy.
I'm not a huge John Gottie fan. I think if
he would have not been so egotistical, I think he
probably would have been a lot more successful.

Speaker 3 (17:55):
That's just my opinion.

Speaker 1 (17:57):
Tell us a little bit about the guy who was
supposed to kill Sammy the Bull for sure.

Speaker 4 (18:03):
And and just to your point, yeah, there's a there's
a capito in the Genevies family, guy named I think
Angelo Prisco, who was captured on tape saying exactly what
you just speculated to justin, which is he says John
Gotti destroyed organized crime because yeah, and he couldn't stop talking.
So yeah, So both Mike and I had several interactions

(18:25):
with Gravano that I think barely interesting, fairly fascinating, which
we could turn back to if you like. But to
answer your question, yeah, Gravano had cooperated against Gotti. He
had been originally in the Witness security program, had left
that had moved to Arizona, and it became known through
his interview with Diane Sawyer and other things that became

(18:47):
known that he was there in the Gambino family sent
hit squad to kill him. The leader was a guy
named Carbonaro, who is a soldier in the Gambino family.
And I prosecuted Carbonaro for trying to kill Gravano. And
the most fascinating part of this really fascinating story which
obviously we cover in detail in the book, is that

(19:08):
Carboneal called a star witness to defend him against the
charge that he was trying to murder Gravano. And do
you know that was justin he called Sammy Gravano. So
Gravano took the stand to say, the prosecutors, the FBI,
they have it wrong. Carbonell wasn't trying to kill me.
And so I am the only prosecutor to ever cross

(19:30):
examined Sammy Gravano. I try to prove through his testimony
that he was wrong and he actually was the intended
murder victim. I'm sure that situation has never occurred in
any other court.

Speaker 3 (19:42):
I highly doubt it.

Speaker 5 (19:44):
Those three dangerous words in that light is I love you?

Speaker 3 (19:49):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (19:51):
How did you guys get to George Baron from the
Genees family to end up become a witness And how
did that all play out? Being the I mean Genevie's family,
super secret, super powerful, and in order to get a
witness out of there, you had to had some kind
of dirt or tell them you know, somebody was trying
to kill them or something.

Speaker 5 (20:10):
Right, And again there's a lot of detail on the
book but I think that's a perfect story as a
foundation to the hypocrisy of that criminal life. Yes, I
mean George Barone. We made numerous recordings of how he
basically was instrumental in the Genovese's control of the ILA,

(20:34):
the International Longshoreman's Association on a national level by controlling
the board. And this all happened, and these are recordings
we made. This all happened when they were transitioning from
loading the ships manually to the containerization process. And again,
historically the shipping industry in New York you had the

(20:58):
ports in Brooklyn and Staten I and the ports in
Manhattan in New Jersey, but when it went to containerization,
the property along the Jersey coast was substantial for the
storage of containers and for ships to come in, while
Brooklyn and Staten Island had minimal space. And so in

(21:19):
that capacity, the new unions that were created with George's
organization skills that facilitated that work for containers, repairs of containers,
you know, basically loading them, that was all George, and
they were complementary of George. And this is what I
found fascinating. George went to prison and he was owed

(21:43):
money by an individual a modest amount of money like
sixty thousand dollars. But he facilitated because George went back
to the days of Vito Genevies. He was there, back
in the days of when Costello was shot. He was
with Vito Genevise when he went to prison. He facilitated
Chin's son Andrew Gigante, to handle this associate of the

(22:05):
Genevese family in that industry. That guy was a multi
multi multi millionaire as a result of George facilitating his
opportunity to get the business. And he owed George a
modest amount of money like sixty thousand dollars. When George
tried to collect it after coming out of prison, the

(22:26):
people affiliated with the Geneviez family that we're dealing with,
George didn't want to ask Andrew. They didn't want to
insult Chin by going through the process of collecting. Now,
to me, having played sports, you know with guys on
my team, you want to do your best to support
your teammates. George made them millions and millions of dollars

(22:51):
in this corrupt industry. Why not just give him sixty
thousand out of your pocket. If you don't want to
embarrass Chin. And yet George being a very stubborn, fearless
guy that was in numerous in World War Two. He
was at Iwgima numerous battles, he did him back down,
you know, and he basically demanded his money, and so

(23:14):
they were interested in killing him. There was a bunch
of things going on at that time. We had a
bunch of murders that were lining up that we had
to address, and so George was charged, you know, as
part of our original indictment. But George's stubbornness, I think
in his ability to find us credible with assisting him

(23:37):
in addressing his cooperation in an efficient manner. And Dan
did an excellent job on the debriefing process there where
you established a comfort zone from a credibility standpoint of
your working with us. Did he trust us to do
what we said we were going to do to assist
in this process? And Dan can speak more about that,

(23:57):
But I think thinking about the modest amount of money
that he was asking, he didn't have to go to
Chin to get it. You could have did it on
your own pocket.

Speaker 4 (24:06):
So what justin let me set the table for you
and your listeners from a very high level. So the
Genovese crime Filmly, one of the reasons why they're so
powerful and successful is they do not have made members.
That's a technical term which we can turn back to
if you like, but it means essentially, you have a
lot of power a made member of organized crime from
the Genovese crime film and uniquely, they do not become witnesses.

(24:29):
So the only Genovi's made member to ever speak publicly
was a guy named Joe Volacci, who testified in Congress
in the nineteen sixties. We're from the Gambinos. You have
Sammy the Bolgravano and others. Lukes, you have al Diorco, Pichoto, Banano,
you had their boss Messino and others.

Speaker 6 (24:49):
Who am I leaving out.

Speaker 5 (24:50):
The columbost them in the.

Speaker 6 (24:52):
Book, Yeah, we listen.

Speaker 4 (24:54):
The Genevies uniquely had nobody other than Vallacchi since the
nineteen sixties to full cooperate Mike and I. After George
Barone was arrested as part of Mike's massive takedown to
the Genees family, we had the opportunity to actually meet
with George Burone. That in of itself also never ever
happens when a gangster gets arrested, they are assigned a

(25:17):
lawyer whose first task is to make sure that they
never meet with us, because the mafia doesn't want their
people to become witnesses, so they prohibit their people from
meeting with us. You never get a chance to meet
with a mobster unless they affirmatively reach out to you.
They what they usually do is they ditch their lawyer

(25:38):
and they get a lawyer whill actually represent their interests
to approach you. That's like how Gravano did it. Aldarco
came walking into the FBI offices and so on. So
big picture, nobody from the family cooperates and you never
get to meet with them anyway. What happened with Baron
was Mike and I traveled to Florida as part of
this massive takedown, which we can talk about separately, and

(26:01):
brown Because Mike Campy succeeded in getting so many monsters arrested,
We're talking fifty sixty seventy of them, the mafia didn't
have a chance to assign their lawyers to keep their
mouths shut. So George Browne actually got a lawyer who
represented his best interests, and that guy saw that Mike

(26:22):
and I wanted to talk to George. You know, we
said it to him in court, Hey can we talk
to George? And he said, yeah, of course you can,
which is what a lawyer should do. They're obligated to
represent their client's best interests. It never happens in mafia cases.
Mike and I stumbled into Gold, So we actually were
in a meeting with George Brown, and we didn't.

Speaker 5 (26:42):
Argue for his attention, which he I think he appreciated that.

Speaker 4 (26:45):
Yeah, he also he was appreciative that we didn't seek
to keep him incarcerated after his arrest. In the book,
we take you into the room and we show you
how the conversation went and how we were able to
persuade him. It's one of the very few opportunities ever
that an FBI agen and a prosecutor has an opportunity
to persuade a gangster. Usually Dave already made the decision,

(27:08):
then they come forward. But Mike and I, between the
two of us, you got decades of a lot of
experience in turning criminals and the witnesses, and Mike and
I each made the decision, We're not letting this guy
leave the room. He's just not getting out of here.
Until he becomes a witness, and we succeeded. We were
very fortunate, and he became the first made member of

(27:29):
the Genevie's crime family to cooperate since Flachi in the sixties.
It was devastating to organize crime.

Speaker 6 (27:35):
It broke.

Speaker 4 (27:36):
Others started to come forward after that, and since then
there have been some others. But yeah, and he was
a legendary historical waterfront character on top.

Speaker 5 (27:44):
And we were receiving information from sources on the street.
Like these old time gangsters like Chinky Fasciano. Did not
believe George cooperated. It wasn't until obviously he appeared, and
he's on video being interviewed. But very fascinating, very bright guy,

(28:05):
George Baron. As far as his knowledge of the ILA,
I mean, he cited and again the book has a
lot of details, but he would cite how he travel
out to Kentucky to kill a guy interfering with the
genebe scambling operation and then continue to travel out to
meet with shipping executives to discuss the union agreement. And
his memory was just sharp, and you could tell he

(28:26):
was fearless.

Speaker 1 (28:27):
Wouldn't it be more beneficial to not have them confined,
like you were saying, he appreciated the fact you were
trying to let him get out or bond out of
jail or whatever the case was, to be back on
the streets. Theoretically, wouldn't that be a good thing because
they're going to go out.

Speaker 5 (28:42):
Maybe it all depends, Okay. So George Baron historically when
he was in Florida, he developed a lot of the
Union court. He facilitated the ISLA unions with Cubans, and
the Cubans loved them, and it was really a Cuban population.
He didn't go into the witness protection program. He relied

(29:04):
on his friends in that community. And I remember part
and again we go into it in the book, but
the source that we were operating in the book Derso.
He was a person that was supposed to be tasked
with actually killing George barn And so they were giving
George a portion of the funds in Florida and then

(29:24):
they were going to summon him to New York for
the remaining portion where he'd be killed. And again we
go into the detail. It's sort of comical in some
regards because I was sitting in this strip wall covering
it all my camera and video, and I was watching
George with a big smile on his face, counting the
money behind the driver's wheel. And the whole thing was
for Dursa to be there to observe it, so that

(29:46):
he knew who he'd probably be killing in the future.
A lot of details though in the absolutely Georgie had
a great sense of humor.

Speaker 1 (29:54):
Well, I guess that is always a good thing. How
did you guys end up meeting and working together? I
am kind of interested in that.

Speaker 5 (30:02):
Again, I didn't meet Dan initially, but I did go
attend the first Chin trial he was in to observe,
and I had the Ida trial completed, I believe at
that time, and I went just to watch to see
how it was evolving. So I got this a sense
of George Santangelo, Dan and Andrew Weisman in that trial,

(30:24):
just observing it as in the courtroom. I subsequently met
Dan when the case was about to come down and
that Dan was assigned, and so it was a process
of there was going to be numerous we anticipated numerous trials,
and so that process of the arrests of the proffers.

(30:46):
Dan was all part of that. You know, he went
to Florida with me. So it was a good connection
where there was a comfort there and Dan was very
good on his feet with you know, coming across an
incredible manner because a lot of times guys don't trust,
you know, guy from the street just may not trust
impropers how they're involved, and it could just be because

(31:10):
they're not speaking in a comfort zone. To me, when
I speak to guys as far as cooperating, whether it's
in an forming capacity or cooperator, it's I'm telling them
what I'm going to do. It's the credibility that what
I'm saying to them they trust. And so there's a
lot there. But Dan had a very good rapport when

(31:30):
we sat with George Baron.

Speaker 3 (31:32):
What do you think about that?

Speaker 7 (31:33):
Dan?

Speaker 4 (31:34):
As Mike could see me in court in the first Chintral,
I had always heard Genevie's is Mike camp like that?
That's just what I always heard. In the Eastern district,
we would prosecute Genevi's, Gambino, Columbu, lu Kesey, Banano, it
didn't matter.

Speaker 6 (31:49):
But I had always heard if there.

Speaker 4 (31:51):
Was a Genevie's case, it was my Campy, and I
was aware that he mostly brought the cases at the
time to the Southern District of New York. So I
was frankly real when when I learned that I was
being assigned to a Genevie's case where Mike was involved.

Speaker 6 (32:04):
And then, as Mike.

Speaker 4 (32:04):
Said, so in the takedown that Mike orchestrated, this powerful
takedown that we've alluded to, Mike and I did the
Florida partment. Most of the rest were in New York.
Mike and I did the Florida part. So we got
to know each other, got to learn that, you know,
we respected each other, trusted each other, were able to
turn Burn into a witness. And then Mike approached me

(32:26):
to say, hey, can we take down the chin a
second time?

Speaker 6 (32:29):
And then we partnered on that.

Speaker 1 (32:30):
When you got your name out there, Dan, were you ever?
I mean you had to have been fearful at certain
points during a lot of this. Is there anything that
stands out to you as like a point where you
thought to yourself, Hey, man, maybe I should like back
off or not do this. I'm whether it be for
the safety of you or your family or anything like that.

Speaker 4 (32:51):
What we were always told, and it made sense, was
just do your job. The mob will leave you be
because they understand in some sense that you're fungible, which
means if you kill a prosecutor, another prosecutor is gonna
step into their shoes. And guess what. Now you got

(33:12):
roaring front page headlines. You've got United States Congress is
gonna potentially step in, and you've got you know, politicians
who are going to jump on this. The mafia thrives
by living in the shadows, and this makes them top
front of the page news menace to a law abiding society.
So that was what kept us safe. That being said,

(33:36):
you know, I colleagues who were threatened from time to time.
It's always in your mind as a possibility, but you understand,
you know, at some level, somebody's got to step forward
and do this. Otherwise what's going to happen to society?
I mean, we may as well just become a lawless
society where the criminals stick over.

Speaker 6 (33:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (33:56):
One other thing, justin from a business standpoint, guys, agents,
the competent agents I work with, and from other nypd
DA the reason we joined this is to take bad
people off the street. We're not fearing somebody trying to
retaliate against us. One were much better shots than there.

(34:16):
But the other thing is if I got a threat,
I'm going to the guy's door. I'm not waiting on it.
They get life in prison for murder conspiracies. The other
aspect is they jeopardize their own life because it's counterproductive
to business to generate money. It's against their own rules.
Because I remember when the DEA agent Hatcher, Everett Hatcher,

(34:39):
was killed, all law enforcement basically stopped what they were doing.
It was almost like nine to eleven and focused on
going after Gussie. Faraci toget them, and I remember debriefing
of al di Arco, who was the acting boss of
the Lukazy family at that time, after he cooperated, he
cited how he went to a kid's house like at midnight,

(35:03):
one in the morning, knocked on the kid's door, handed
him a gun. He said, kill Gus or kill yourself.
They knew he was hiding him, and shortly after that
Gus was killed. It's really they know we're gonna raise
We don't typically raid social clubs for gambling operations or something,
but if we're looking for a fugitive and you raid

(35:24):
the social club, you're gonna come away with guys role violation.
You're gonna generate numerous informants and cooperating witnesses based on
your aggressive pursuit of somebody that killed a law enforcement
officer for doing his job.

Speaker 1 (35:38):
What was the hardest case and what was the easiest
case for each of you?

Speaker 5 (35:45):
Oh wow, I mean there's some cases where you just
get a walk in being extorted and it's like, okay,
let's go make some table. I mean, you can't. It's
like a layup I had. There's some funny cases. I
remember these Russians who operated a limousine company and it's
a big limousine company now, but they appeared because they

(36:07):
were two guys that started the business along with an
Italian guy. And the Italian guy was like a dispatcher
in the cab service, so he's very familiar with the
streets in the city and all, and he could direct them.
And as this company was grown, this Italian guy basically
was sick colostomy bag and all his stuff, and apparently
he wanted to get bought out, and he introduced to

(36:31):
them on the phone an alleged cousin who was portraying
himself as a gangster, and it was one of the
funniest conversations I made because the Russians appeared at the
FBI because they were threatened, their lives were threatened. Guys
appeared at their office, put guns in their heads and
demanded that their partner get paid. The Italian. So they

(36:51):
showed up at the FBI and I made recorders and
the recordings were with you know, the person who was
a partner. But then they put his cousin on who
just came across like hilarious, and I'm writing scriptive what
I wanted to ask, yes, but who are you? Who
are you? And it was like the cousin on tape.

(37:12):
It's one of the funniest conversations. You want to know
who I am. I'm the fucking devil. If you don't
pay my fucking cousin and just ballistic one by tomorrow,
I will fucking kill you. And it was just one
of the funniest conversations. And so a few hours later
we go out to make a meeting where they think
they're getting paid, and we arrested them all. And the guy,

(37:34):
the Italian that had the colostomy bag, had a semi
automatic in his pants, safety off down towards his groin.
I mean, we could have pulled it out. It would
have accidentally went off. You couldn't make this stuff up.
And as I'm driving away with him in the car,
him being an Italian and camp Be being an Italian name,
the Russians are in the parking lot, and he's telling

(37:57):
me he wants to fucking kill those guys. Mike, you
were Italian. I'm Italian, They're fucking Russians. I couldn't And
I'm testified to this and this detention here after the fact.
I mean, it's a funny story. I don't know if
the details. You can't make it up. And I remember
years later agents who came to my squad heard the

(38:17):
recording in their new agents training class. It was hilarious.
You know, you can't. It would be something that would
be funny in a movie. And one of the guys
arrested was so big. He was cuffed and his head
in the back seat sitting but his head was in
the front seat, that's how big he was. He was,

(38:38):
and the cans were behind his back. And he wasn't
the brightest guy. And I remember when we took him
out of the car at our building to process him,
his hands were like blow and I said to you,
he didn't tell us that the cuffs were so tight.
They were on the last you know, since his wrists
were so big. It's just funny story. Even if he

(38:59):
wanted to co op where you couldn't use him because
he was as dumb as a stone. I mean, how
about you, Dan? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (39:05):
For me, So I had a chance to think about
it more as Mike was talking, so I would categorize it.
I would say, the easiest cases are the guilty please.
You know, ninety five percent of all cases are resolved
through a guilty please. I had the somewhat unique experience
of many, perhaps most of my cases were actually trials,

(39:26):
because I would take the cases that were going to trial.
You know, my boss would seek me out and say, hey, Dan,
this case is going to trial.

Speaker 6 (39:33):
I want you on it. So those are the hardest cases.

Speaker 4 (39:36):
I mean, the cases go to trial because if you
think about it, I'll put you in this in the
seat that the prosecutor occupies. All the defense needs to
do is convince one juror just one, and you don't
get a guilty verdict. And the defense attorney's entire job
is essentially to follow you around everywhere and attack everything
that you say and everything that you do, look for holes,

(39:57):
to pick any hole and pry it open and as
wide as possible, and then they or your witness right.

Speaker 6 (40:04):
All they need to do.

Speaker 4 (40:05):
Is find one inconsistency, one thing that can't be proven,
one thing that they got wrong. And the skillful defense
lawyers and I usually were Again, I was up against
most skilled defense lawyers, because that's what the mob gets.
They make a mountain out of a mole hill, and
we'll scream to the jury that you have to reject
the whole case. So and again, all they need is
one juror and there's no guilty verdict. So it's a

(40:28):
really intimidating environment. That being said, the two hardest cases
from that hard group. One, I prosecuted the acting boss
of the Columbo crime family, guy named Andrew mush Russo
for attempted jury tampering in the trial of his son,
who was prosecuted for multiple murders in the Columbo War.

Speaker 6 (40:49):
That was the hardest one of.

Speaker 4 (40:51):
The two hardest cases for me because I was a
fairly new prosecutor at the time and the defense lawyers
were grouped together to just tear me apart. It's the
closest I ever came to breaking at trial, and I
explain why in detailing the book. But it was a
harrowing experience. I was up all night, virtually every night.
I just kept a pad of paper by my bedside.

(41:13):
I'd wake up at three in morning, four in morning,
five morning, just jotting down notes, trying to rebut the
attacks that I was experiencing on a daily basis, many
of them below the belt. And the second that I
would say was the hardest was prosecuting Joe the German Watts,
who was very trusted associated John Gotti. When John Gotti

(41:34):
killed Paul Costellano, he deeded Staten Island to Joe Watts
in as as a thank you for helping him kill
Paul Costelano. So Joe Watts took over Staten Island. I
prosecuted him along with a fantastic other prosecutor, Andrew Genzer,
and we prosecuted him for money laundering and tax evasion

(41:55):
because he built this massive estate in Sarasota, Florida, with
the millions of dollars that was being funneled in through
stand on. That was the other hardest case because we
got one of the nastiest surprises that could take place.
As a prosecutor, you're always trying to control the flow
of information that gets to the jury, and then you
still have to deal with the attacks and the uncertainty

(42:18):
of how the jury's gonna take it in. But when
your case doesn't go in as you expect it to,
that's another level of anxiety that can really take you
to a whole another place. So those were the two hardists.

Speaker 1 (42:33):
All Right, we're gonna stop here, take a little break,
and we'll be back.

Speaker 2 (42:37):
In a few minutes.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
And we touched on it a little bit earlier. We
were talking a little bit about hypocrisy, especially with the
different levels of between soldiers coppos, bosses. I saw a
quote somebody said, they're just soldiers, we just use them,
or some to that effect.

Speaker 5 (43:00):
Associates.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
Yes, So, like, I don't know, when you guys are
looking at a case or looking at the people involved,
I guess what stood out to you Because you always
have the stereotypical it's loyalty, it's all about the family.
What is some of the more hypocritical things that you
guys have ran into while while doing this.

Speaker 5 (43:23):
I do think the book points out historically, the hypocrisy
of the life, going all the way back to the
days of Lucky Luciano, when you had Joe the Boss Masseria, yeah,
and the Castle ofver Ease Wars, So you had Vito Geneviez,
Lucky Luciano, you know, Frank Costello, you had all these

(43:45):
guys who were under Missio, and Salvador Marenzano, who was
on the adversary in the enemy of Missio, conspire with
them to kill Massario and then allow Lucky to take
over his business at all. And within months of that
murder that they successfully completed, Marinzano then planned to kill

(44:08):
Lucky Luciano because he became envious of how others were
viewing him. And so that's always viewed as though it's
the foundation for this men of honor, when the reality
is it just continued over the years, I mean, besides
the World War Two, which sort of you know, delayed
the hypocrisy. And I'm sure there's a bunch of murders

(44:30):
I'm unaware with regards to the treachery and the life.
And again there is no honor love those three words
you hate as I love you, because that's the guy
who's going to shoot you. The reality is that they
have egos. They envy each other. It's said, I mean,
you're joining a group of men in an organized crime

(44:52):
family that may have one hundred, two hundred, three hundred
depending on the timeframe. But each member, each soldier, has
associates attached to them. And the recordings we made in
the conversations that we cite in the book spell out
how as soon as somebody steps away from a conversation
where they're all supposed to be splitting money, they'll talk

(45:15):
about hating the guy and what a moro on the
guy is. And there's so many similar type of conversations
where you realize and these are recordings we've made where
a wise.

Speaker 8 (45:26):
Guy is supposed to love an otherwise guy hates them,
and they've got these egos where, for instance, some of
the recordings that we cite in the book is how
one guy is one of only two.

Speaker 5 (45:39):
People that's allowed to visit the acting boss in prison,
and he's sharing this with an associate that we're recording.
Nobody's supposed to know this, and it's just like you
can't keep a secret because you've got this big ego
and you want people to know how important you are.
And those are the types of details that I think

(45:59):
if the guy's in that life realize the recordings that
law enforcement has, I think the recordings facilitate guilty please
because they never want them played in court because they
don't want the people in their life to realize, you
know how they basically were more interested in their self

(46:19):
serving issues than really your brotherhood. And I use that
to facilitate cooperatives informants because they're aware of it, some
of them. And really, if you love your kid, you
basically would want him to not get involved in the life,
maybe get him a job in some other capacity. And

(46:40):
so that's what I want to get across from the
book is the hypocrisy of the life because the wise
guys in the life know it, and it's just they
can't step away from it unless they want to cooperate
or too old and they can sort of retire.

Speaker 4 (46:57):
Yeah, this is one of the reasons justin that Mike
and I decided to come forward. I mean, there are
a lot of complex reasons why we decided to, but
this was one of them. To try to help correct
the public record as to what the MAFI really is.

Speaker 6 (47:12):
There's almost this massive.

Speaker 4 (47:14):
Misinformation campaign for various reasons that gives the public the
misimpression that this is a life of loyalty, honor, and respect,
and it's just absolutely absent. And unfortunately the young men
who make the decision to go down this path, by
the time they find out, it's too late. And we

(47:36):
do our best to show not through argument, but through
compelling facts the type that Mike has talked about. These
recordings in the mobster's own words like Tommy Kafara's one
Genevie's Guy who Might can't be had recorded.

Speaker 6 (47:52):
And neither are his words.

Speaker 4 (47:52):
He says, this life is all treacher it's all hypocrisy.
So we try to give a lot of details of that.
One for the benefit of the public, and two for
the benefit of the young men who may make the
mistake of their lives and get caught up. And by
the time you caught up, you have two choices. One
you cooperate or two get killed if you want to

(48:13):
have the life. So we're trying to protect them from
making that mistake in the first place. To give you
a concrete example, which you asked for, maybe the best
illustration that I can think of of the life of
hypocrisy and treachery is this person who we've alluded to
throughout our conversation, guy named Mike Cookie Durso, who was
the consummate gangster, tough respected on his way to a

(48:38):
leadership position, had muscles, brainpower, everything. But he was playing
poker one day with his cousin who was like his
who was like his brother, and they were shot in
the head, both of them, and the people who orchestrated
their assassination were their friends friends. To the read that

(49:01):
these people orchestrate their murder attempt were at Mike Derso's
wedding just months prior to that. So, if you want
like the ultimate example of hypocrisy and treachery, when you
have close friends who you're sitting down to play a
card game with and then they shoot you in the
head and they kill your cousin and they put a
bullet in your head, and then the treachery and hypocrisy

(49:24):
extend through his example because he saw it revenge, which
he should have the rights to do, but his own
crime fell. He came back and said, if you try
to get revenge, we'll kill you for it. And then
later on he got into an argument with a guy
on the phone, and Mike Derso did what a stand
up gangster supposed to do, is he represented for the
Genevise family. He tried to put the guy in his place.

(49:47):
It turned out he was arguing with he had no
idea the acting boss of his own family because the
genevis are so secretive, a guy named Frank Farb Serpico
who didn't identify himself. So Derso did what you're supposed
to do as a gangster. He stood up for the
genovies and the acting boss was so offended because his
ego got in the way that he decided Derso had

(50:07):
to die for that. All of these things are what
ultimately pushed him to Mike Campy so Mike could work
with him. Those are really good examples of just hypocrisy
and treachery in organized crime.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
Kind of reminds me of the Sunny Story. I mean,
he did what fifty years in prison and he gets
out and I believe it was his own son that
that rolled on him to save his own ass. I
think he had like a drug charge or something like that.
Dude went back into prison. I can't even remember how
old he was I think ninety years old. He went
back into prison and did like a few more years

(50:41):
and then got out again, and it's like man like, yeah, yeah,
that's a rough situation.

Speaker 3 (50:50):
Well, I would one.

Speaker 4 (50:51):
More I thought of to add to this, justin is
Mike Campy with Mike Durso recorded powerful mobsters saying that
when somebody does what like the Sun did in this
instance that you're talking about, or or di Arco or
a Gravano or Choto or other very powerful witnesses, they
do it because of the hypocrisy and the treachery in

(51:14):
organized crime, where they've been abused for doing nothing wrong,
and then they decide, you know what, if you're going
to abuse me and I didn't even do anything wrong,
I'll work with the FBI. And that's not what Mike
is saying or me, that's what the mobsters say.

Speaker 5 (51:29):
On Tapey had Sammy Beeboll Saparo recorded saying that there
were others talked in recordings we made about how John
Gotti ruined the life because of being so open out
in the public, and really the old timers wanted to
be low key, at least the more sophisticated ones, and

(51:49):
you know, it's evolved in that life. I sort of think,
you know, we speak about it in the book I
believe about you know, how how Italians when they first
came to the country, any ethnic group you stay amongst
your own, you don't typically trust law enforcement because of
the country you came from law enforcement experience, and so

(52:12):
it sort of evolves. You borrow money, You can't go
to a bank, You borrow from somebody that has money
in the neighborhood. But what I would like to think
of as it evolves your silver spoon. Kids that come
don't always treat people the same as maybe their parents did,
and it just becomes a much more volatile ego assaulting people,

(52:38):
abusing people, where it helps facilitate cooperation with law enforcement
to address these issues with arrests, convictions in some instances
discreetly without you know, using informants to put bugs in.
But now it's become much easier because you see the

(53:00):
hypocrisy of their life, and you've got so many cooperating
witnesses now and it's a it's a you know, allows
others to cooperate.

Speaker 4 (53:09):
The gangsters know this, The public doesn't, but the gangsters
know about the hypocrisy and treachery. Many, if not most,
if not all, gangsters sleep with guns under their pillows
or beside their back because they're hyper aware that, uh,
it's treachery.

Speaker 6 (53:23):
It's all hypocrisy.

Speaker 1 (53:24):
And that's that's what always struck me as interesting about
the Gravano case too, is because that dude was so.

Speaker 3 (53:30):
Loyal it was crazy.

Speaker 1 (53:32):
And then he hears the you know tapes of Gotti,
you know, talking about talking about him, and then when
they were in jail on that indictment, I mean essentially
gott he said, hey, you're going to take take the
rap for all this, you know, and he's like, you know,
fuck you man, you know you just you know, I
just heard a bunch of recordings about you talking shit.

(53:53):
So here's how it's going to go. And to be
able to have one of the most loyal people just
turn because because at that point, you know, he's like,
this is all bullshit, you know, this is I always
found that interesting.

Speaker 4 (54:06):
Yeah, it's almost always the most loyal, the the strongest,
you know.

Speaker 6 (54:11):
Gravano's one example.

Speaker 4 (54:12):
Al di Arko was the acting boss and Casey Filler
didn't want to be a witness, but they tried to
kill him fat he chowed, it was a great example.
He was as loyal as you can possibly be. But
they shot him thirteen times. By that he still didn't cooperate, Justin.
Then they threatened to kill his father and they took
all his property. He still didn't cooperate. Then they put

(54:33):
a bulle in his sister's head. Finally he cooperated.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
Crazy to me, I guess it's hard for me to conceive,
you know, coming from my background, which is, you know,
out in the middle of nowhere country and stuff like that.
But I mean, obviously there's certain forms of loyalty. But yeah,
that's why I've always kind of found that interesting it.

Speaker 5 (54:53):
Justine, you'll get a kick out of this because in
the book, again when I said I didn't realize I
had an accent. I went and there's some humorous stories
in the book, but I had to go across to
meet a investigator with a bank that had a fraud
that was committed. It was like eight thirty in the morning,
and this guy had like a barny millet to tie

(55:14):
down as though it was like midnight, cuffs you know,
on his shirt up, and he pulled out a bottle
of whiskey asking me if I wanted a cup of coffee,
and I just thought I'd only been there recently. I
was just out of the academy. This is guys breaking
the new agent stones. And I said, no, I have
my coffee. And then no, sooner did that sentence end

(55:36):
when he said my name, Mike Campy. Is that one
of them there Italian names? And I said yeah, campus Italian.
He said, and about I ever tell you? You talk funny?
You couldn't make it up. And I just thought it
was breaking my stones. And it was like when I
told the guys weeks later this bank had a bank

(55:57):
robbery and he was out there and I was pointing
to guys on my squad, you know, responding, I said,
you guys ever deal with that? When I told him
the story, because I thought it was the old timers
in the office that were just trying to use him
to screw with me. It just burst out laughing, And
eventually months later I would joke when people would talk

(56:18):
about is that a New York accent, I said, no,
it's not a The York accent. It's an attitude. It's
a Jersey attitude. And they would just laugh it was funny.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
I enjoyed the two years and Cincinnati that's awesome. So
speaking of like funny stories and like the book, you know,
kind of goes lighthearted at times with all the stress,
all the sleepless nights, frustrations. What is a case or
an instance with what you guys have done over the
years where you were just super proud of yourself and

(56:50):
just super happy.

Speaker 3 (56:51):
It's like, you know what, this is why I do
what I do?

Speaker 1 (56:54):
Is there one instance that stands out?

Speaker 5 (56:57):
I wish I had that moment. I mean, the idea
case was what I was most proud of, but I
really banged my head against a lot of bureaucracy to
get it done. I so appreciated the assistance I had
by other agents that worked with me on that, you know,
and my prosecutor because I just had some upper management

(57:19):
that just was problematic to getting fixed. So I don't
the things that made me most proud were really coming
from the street. I mean, I remember the squad adjacent
tois had a guy from Bureau of Prisons finally joining
this joint task force, and this was a big compliment
because I was introduced to him and he looked shocked

(57:42):
that you're my CAMPI and he goes, you don't know
how many times I have heard your name mentioned on
prison calls, like and he cited a specific call, a
recent call where the collect call to the guy outside
cited that I had knocked on his door or the
guy in the street and visited him, and the guy

(58:03):
in prison said, hire an attorney and plead guilty. Goes,
he hasn't charged me with anything yet. Hire an attorney.
I'll see in a few months. So that was a
very you know, something I viewed in a complimentary manner.
I just sort of giggled, and he was surprised because
he was thinking of, you know, a big full head
of hair, like John Gotti, angry Italian, you know, comical

(58:27):
moment for me, I said, are you disappointed? He just laughed.

Speaker 6 (58:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (58:32):
For me, I would always try after charals just to
kind of like have the recognition that society was a
little bit safer, you know, people were a little bit safer,
potential victims were a little bit safer, and that was
what kept me going. But a specific moment was after
and Mike he had a similar experience after the conviction

(58:56):
of Joe Watts. I was sitting at my desk, I
don't know. A day or so later in the phone rings.
This was before like phone numbers showed up on your phone,
and it was a really gravelly voice that quickly told
me this was not the type of call I'm used
to receiving.

Speaker 6 (59:15):
And I can't.

Speaker 4 (59:16):
Really mimic the voice. Maybe I'll try a little bit,
but it was like you.

Speaker 5 (59:20):
Are you Dorski?

Speaker 4 (59:21):
And so I kind of braced myself a little bit
for whatever was coming, and I go, what do you
you know, what do you want?

Speaker 6 (59:28):
And he goes, you're the guy that just convicted Jill wants.

Speaker 4 (59:31):
And I go, yeah, the trial, the trial's over, and uh,
I had no.

Speaker 6 (59:36):
Idea where he was going. But what he did was
he thanked me.

Speaker 4 (59:39):
He said, uh, he said Watts was going to get out,
he had a list of hits that he was going
to carry out, and that I had saved a lot
of lives and that just meant a lot to me.
I quickly put on you know, investigators slash prosecutor hat like, hey,
you know, let's get together to diner somewhere.

Speaker 6 (59:58):
Then he hanged he hung up the phone.

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
That is that's pretty awesome.

Speaker 5 (01:00:02):
Again, another similar call I had, but in the Iida case,
I had lost my favorite supervisor, you know, was replaced.
I had partners detectives. One was indicted and was acquitted
a trial regarding corruption, and another one retired because of

(01:00:23):
what was going on. I had another partner, Bob Dougherty,
a really great agent, and he just left organized crime
because of the frustration. So when that Aida conviction came down,
we went out after with the prosecutors to have some
beers to celebrate. But I had this empty feeling, and
I called Patty Maggiory, the detective that retired prematurely, to

(01:00:45):
say I wanted to thank him for his work. The
case would have never the trial would have never gone
as well as it did had but for his participation.
Even though he didn't testify in the trial, we worked together.
We did a bunch of different things, and I just
felt empty because of the guys that were involved. Initially,
I felt good with the guys that were involved at trial,

(01:01:08):
but at the same time, there were so many missing parts,
and I felt good for the prosecutors, but I didn't
get that same joy. It was more of an empty feeling.
Looking back on what occurred in that investigation.

Speaker 4 (01:01:21):
And Mike All on the Mickey Generoso.

Speaker 5 (01:01:25):
Yeah, I got a call from an unknown person who
basically was so happy convicted. Mickey Generosa was the acting
underbuss because of his evil nature, and he never I
don't think he was ever previously arrested. He was old.

Speaker 1 (01:01:38):
You had actually mentioned earlier a little bit you kind
of glazed over it, and I was gonna ask about this.
You had mentioned like some of the upper management making
things a little bit hard for you at times. I mean,
can you elaborate on that at all?

Speaker 7 (01:01:54):
I mean, I don't want you to give like a
whole lot away, but how did that all come about?

Speaker 5 (01:01:59):
I mean, it's difficult to talk about because I understand
the difficulty of trying to put listening devices in social
clubs and other areas. I just had a lot of times,
you know, where I was. You create a document that
basically identified the best window of time, because say Mondays

(01:02:21):
during football season, you know, they were gambling, they were
watching football, they were there at three or four in
the morning. So you know, the break in and little
Italy in Mulberry Street is a complex process. So I
appreciate the frustration, but some of the things that occurred
could have easily have been avoided. The purpose of my
communication to the tech team that Disney installation was to

(01:02:44):
alert them of things to be aware. So there were
things that I was getting information. I mean, one of
the bizarre things was a bug was installed, and I
got an information from a source who said there was
a the FBI broke in the Jiggly Club last night
at three o'clock in the morning to install a bug

(01:03:06):
that they caught. And this is a bizarre story. So
I remember, you know when I saw this communication, wasn't
my source. It was just a source that went into
the control file and I read it and I went
back to saying, they know we put a bug in there,
and then tech team, one of the bosses, basically said
they didn't get caught, and said, here's a source that's

(01:03:28):
not only describing the night that it was installed, but
all the accurate details. It was the FBI. I said
it was three in the morning. It was on that night.
So why are you saying the source is wrong, Because
the whole thing is you're going to be sitting there
monitoring a bug or bugs with multiple guys sitting around

(01:03:50):
on their shifts, and if they know the bug is there,
They're not going to be talking and so that process.
The funny thing was, years later I learned the guy
Derso was the guy that caught them. It was, and
he told me the details of how he caught them
and was he just was driving up Mulberry Street and
he saw the lights on in the social club with
shades now and he thought the guy in there was

(01:04:11):
having sex with a girl. So he knocked on the
door and he could see people scurrying behind the shades,
and he was like, well, this isn't normal. And then
he saw a car with it obviously an agent sitting
in it, probably had an accent similar years, and he
asked him, what are you doing and he basically said, oh,
I'm waiting for a guy. He They asked him, oh,
because he knew the neighborhood. And when you can't come

(01:04:33):
up with a name, that's when he drove off and
he basically called other guys at the FBI's in the club.
It was just I mean, it's comical when you hear
it years later, and when you you know, when you're
looking at the faces of the people, you're saying, I
think we got caught. Well, why would you think that
they said they didn't get caught, just like the specifics
of the information. So there are some numerous stories. That's

(01:04:56):
all right, Hey, Justin.

Speaker 4 (01:05:00):
Has talked about Ida Generoso Boloma. Can I just put
it into context for you so.

Speaker 6 (01:05:04):
You're listening absolutely, and the import.

Speaker 4 (01:05:07):
So this is a Genovi's crime family. Mike took down
their leadership. He is the only agent to my knowledge
to have ever done that. And he did that in
what he's referring to as Jimmy Ida case. So he
took down their acting boss, who is Barney Balomo. He
took down their acting underboss was Mickey Generoso, and he

(01:05:28):
took down their consiglieri, which was Jimmy Ida, that is
the ruling body for the most powerful criminal organization in America.
After he did that, what he hasn't told you is
when he started his next massive investigation of the Genovies,
a pretty powerful acting capo named Sammy meetballs Aparo was

(01:05:50):
captured on recording that Mike made with Derso saying, if
we take another hit like we did last time, meaning
in the Ida case, we're done.

Speaker 6 (01:05:59):
We can't serve I have another hit.

Speaker 4 (01:06:01):
That was when Mike was starting the second hit, the
biggest takedown of the Genevese family ever, to the degree
not only the Genevie's, all five crime families, to the
degree that the FBI made an official statement on Mike's
second case, which we've spoken around but we haven't directly addressed.

(01:06:23):
They referred to it as perhaps and I think I
have the words exactly right. Quote the most significant and
successful undercover operation in the history of law enforcement.

Speaker 6 (01:06:36):
Close quote.

Speaker 4 (01:06:37):
So you're not talking just the mafia, You're not talking
just New York. This is the entire history of American
law enforcement. That's the magnitude of what Mike accomplished.

Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
That is honestly impressive, super impressive. And that's why I'm
gonna if people need to read this book.

Speaker 5 (01:06:56):
I mean the book sites After that, I was looking
to put in for organized crime desk. But the boss,
the ASAC, basically at a process to review the applicants
for an organized crime supervisor position, said to five other
people that were participating in the review process where you
have a list of candidates and they rank them. That

(01:07:19):
is long. And this was a guy, but Headsworth, and
you know, basically was able to succeed without his input.
He said, as long as he has anything to do
with it, Mike Camp, you'll never get a desk in
organized crime. So my family always wanted me to go
back to white collar crime. You know, that was just
a head scratcher, And I did leave OC to go

(01:07:39):
back to to public corruption, the white collar crime, and
then subsequently was recruited to come back as the OC quarters.
You can't make these stories up. It could be a sitcom,
but it's it's kookie on so many levels.

Speaker 1 (01:07:52):
It's just honestly impressive that you got so deep into
it and were able to accomplish what you did. What
time spanned, It was this all happening in like over
a ten year, twenty year span.

Speaker 5 (01:08:04):
I got to New York in eighty five. The Ida
case was indicted, but it took a while because of
numerous issues. But he was indicted in June of ninety six,
and the trial was in ninety seven. Eight months later
is when Durso reached out to me to cooperate, and
so at that time I was looking to maybe leve

(01:08:28):
OC to go to do something else. It was time
to work Derso. Our cooperation was supposed to go from again,
it was June to December, and we were supposed to
address the guys who murdered his cousin, shot him in
the head. And these same participants had roles in bank croperty,
some of them, and so that's all we were supposed

(01:08:49):
to address. But as we made recordings and we followed
up on the details of the recordings with additional details.
Mike Derso was extremely a street savvy, bright, tough kid,
and we at a Christmas party. He got to meet
the power in the Bronx. And as a result of
meeting the power in the Bronx, which is people around
Barney Bolomo who I previously put in prison or was

(01:09:13):
in prison, it was like, Okay, let's pursue this. And
it was three years and we did so many different topics,
criminal topics, so many different organized crime families, schemes regarding
you know, multimillion dollar type of schemes where you would
block the sewer outside high rise buildings and make a

(01:09:33):
million dollars on the weekend based on coordinating with the
engineer in the building. It was corrupt, I mean check
cashing schemes where you had a check casher that would
basically facilitate millions, tens of millions, hundred million dollars in
stock proNT type schemes. So there were so many schemes
that it was like, Okay, how do we get the evidence,
how do we facilitate And a load of these were

(01:09:56):
where the people were talking about nobody's supposed to know
about this, and they would share the details with or
so as we're recording him, and it's like, okay, this
is another thing we got to get on. I mean,
there was an Albanian massacre that they were talking about.
We had to say pace down because that was wild
and it was too volatile. And they were talking about
taking five members from each family, so total of twenty

(01:10:17):
five with fully automatic weapons to just go into these
clubs to kill them. And it was like, you know,
you're gonna have innocent people, you know, as part of it.
If you saw Sammy Gervano's conversation when he described the
killing of Paul Castellano, he cited that if innocent bystanders
tried to interfere, they would have been killed. So this

(01:10:41):
thing about the only kill people involved in the life.

Speaker 6 (01:10:44):
Is not true, you know, not close to true.

Speaker 5 (01:10:48):
Yeah, it's the recklessness of it all.

Speaker 4 (01:10:50):
So justin you're talking around a twenty year period. He
starts in eighty five, first takedown ninety six, second takedown
two thousand and one. By the time the trials are
all over, you're talking around twenty years.

Speaker 5 (01:11:01):
Yeah, there's other investigations I worked out between you know,
to takedown.

Speaker 1 (01:11:05):
But yeah, I got some questions from some listeners. If
you guys want to answer some, absolutely, all right, Well,
so this is for both of you. What mob related
crime stuck with you the most, or a case that
still haunts you to this day, whether it be solved

(01:11:27):
or one that you couldn't solve.

Speaker 4 (01:11:30):
I'll take a shot that The first part of the
question for me would be the attempted murder of Patricia Capazola.
She was a law abiding PTA president, you know, mom
of children, just living her life and an assassin puts
a gun to her head and pulls the trigger, and

(01:11:52):
buy some miracle, the silencer fractures, causing the bull to
mithsfire and she survives. And so I prosecuted the guys
who tried to kill her. And that was in retaliation
for her brother, who was a gangster, Fat Pichoto, for
his potential cooperation.

Speaker 5 (01:12:10):
So the.

Speaker 4 (01:12:12):
Praised murderous leadership of the Luczy family assigned that murder.
That's probably the most wanting. And then the second part
of the question for me is just that despite all
the really accomplished work that we were able to do
in so many others in law enforcement, mafia's still out there,

(01:12:33):
still five crime families, still disrupting people's ability to live peaceful,
law abiding lives, and that's very frustrating.

Speaker 5 (01:12:41):
So I pretty much was successful of investigating and convicting
the people I focused on. I did have some bureaucratic issues.
I remember catching a guy coming into One of the
guys I focused on when we became the Genoese family
was a guy a Kapitol and benson Hurst who was
involved in narcotics acted coming in from Italy. And I

(01:13:03):
caught a guy coming into the country with two keys
of heroin, and I remember a narcotics squad on another
squad came to seize my evidence. It was bizarre. It
was all the politics, internal politics. That sort of was
a frustration for me because again I wanted to travel

(01:13:24):
and I had approval to travel to Italy on information
another guy was going over to get additional kilos of heroin,
and I thought, if I'm in Italy and I can
follow him, I can show a meeting with the Capo
in Italy, photographs, surveillance, put him on a plane, and
just stop the plane when he comes back into the country,
because I didn't think he was going to come back

(01:13:45):
into JFK or LaGuardia, that it would be another area
and figure out his transport. So that said, that sort
of frustrated me. But the one thing there was a
guy read hot genteel. He was evil to me, he
was the devil, and I knew singular source information that
he hated law enforcement and he built his own silencers

(01:14:07):
and that he would kill law enforcement and a heartbeat.
And I came close to making a recording with Durso
with him because he used to be over in the
first Avenue tenth Street neighborhood, and I had Durso ask
about him with Sammy Peoples and he's partially described, No,
he's a treacherous guy and he was going into a murder,

(01:14:27):
and then they got onto another topic. And I always
wondered if I could circle back to pursue that because
I knew this from the Eida case and the fsace.
How treacherous and evil the guy was. But he's dead
Dale so and he lived close by to me. He
looked like the Java man. He looked like a cave man.
And you know, I knew he hated law enforcement. I

(01:14:49):
did a surveillance and I remember him square in the
block and getting behind the agent's car, and I had
to tell him over the radio about the details of
him hating law enforcement. If he gets out of his
car and approaches your car, shoot him because he's just
evil and he's going to shoot you because you know,
just look for him going for a weapon. Because he

(01:15:10):
was not to be trusted. Nicki de Blonde originally proposed
him to be inducted. And the sign of disrespect is.
There was another guy, Handsome Jack Gerdano, in that neighborhood,
and because books were closed, Handsome Jack said to him, look,
if you want, I can make him the Gambino family.

(01:15:33):
And when Nicki heard that, and I remember Nicky's old school,
you know, he shook his head yes, when I said,
you got how loyal is your guy? And he realized
that he wasn't. But he didn't. Nicky never would cooperate.
He was old school and you know, he went back generations.
It could have been for whatever reason, but he did

(01:15:53):
agree that he read how it wasn't a guy to trust,
it wasn't loyal.

Speaker 3 (01:15:59):
And that actually kind of leads into the next question
I have.

Speaker 1 (01:16:03):
So sometimes when you look at mobsters, I mean, I've
a like I said, I've done a lot of episodes
on certain mobsters, and it's it's funny to me that
because I've been in the true crime area of the
world for a long time, Like nobody ever really considers
like Hitman as just complete fucking serial killers, like psychopaths.

(01:16:25):
But then you also have mobsters that you look at
who are super intelligent and you would not think it's like,
what are you doing this? Like you could be running
you know. You look at al Capone. You know, he
could have been a CEO of a company, you know,
the way he ran the outfit and stuff. He was
a good businessman. So the next question for you guys,

(01:16:47):
is the one mobster that stands out to you, whether
it be because he's a complete psychopath or you just
you expected more from him, you know, like a different lifestyle.
Who is the one mobster that stands out to you?

Speaker 5 (01:17:02):
And why the person that stands out to me historically,
and I cite this in the book as a sophisticated
gangster is Jerry Katina and he was the low key
boss of the Genovese family. And Jerry Katina goes back
to the days of Lucky Luciano and others. I mean,
he stood out as being a very bright businessman and

(01:17:27):
so there was there's always treachery in that life. So
as far as that type of gangster, I don't think
it exists today. I mean the brighter guys to me
are low key. I remember making recordings and details of
Chucky Tuzo, was a capital in the Genevese family who
turned down an acting boss position because he preferred to

(01:17:47):
be low key. I think those are brighter.

Speaker 6 (01:17:50):
Guys for me.

Speaker 4 (01:17:53):
The Chen just because he was such a mythical figure
and had such a ridiculous fence that worked, so he
outsmarted the system for so long. And then the other
reason why it's responsible to your question is because actually
when he was senced in his first case, the sensing
judge said to him exactly what you just said. Justin

(01:18:14):
He said, had you chosen a different path, your skills
and your brain power your organizational ability. You'd be running
an S and P five hundred company, you'd be the CEO.
Why did you choose this horrible path? Essentially, That's what
Judge Weinstein said to him. So I was reminded of
that when you were asking the question.

Speaker 3 (01:18:35):
That is U And I mean, it's true.

Speaker 1 (01:18:37):
It's so wild to me that you have these super
intelligent individuals for the most part. I mean, you got
some pretty big dummies out there too, but it just
it it's crazy to me to think, you know, if
they just would have taken a different path, what would
happen was some of them? You know, you look at
guys like Gravano too, who are just there's no empathy.

(01:18:57):
The guy will will kill you when not even think
twice about it. But his whole mentality too was that
it was his job. He's like, I'm doing my job.

Speaker 3 (01:19:07):
That's all.

Speaker 1 (01:19:08):
That's how he basically put it off in his brain
as to where he didn't feel bad about it.

Speaker 4 (01:19:12):
It's the oath that they take if you've become conducted member.

Speaker 6 (01:19:15):
Those are the rules of the game. Period.

Speaker 4 (01:19:18):
Gravano became a witness, so he revealed that, but those
are the rules.

Speaker 5 (01:19:22):
There's some of the recordings too, made like when we're
talking about the Albanian massacre, the guys in the recordings
we're talking about there's not a lot of guys in
this life that can do this, So they're identifying weakness
in their own criminal organization because of you know, the
fear that they're going to get killed after they participate.

(01:19:43):
So there's a lot of moving parts to that life,
and a bright streak guy knows when you're approaching them
for cooperation the reality of it, and it's like, what's
in it for If you love your kids and you
love your family, the reality may be it's time to
cooperate and get off the street and get them to
a different lifestyle. You know, I can always understand guys

(01:20:04):
loyal from being there back decades ago because it may
be abuse that they felt discrimination from being an Italian
or something like that. But the logic on so many
levels of you know, do you really want this life
for your kids? I mean, it's one thing to be
a contractor making money and just sort of going along

(01:20:25):
to generate money for your business and your family and
pretty much being a sheep, but you can profit joining
the life and making an oath to kill if asked,
leave your wife or your child's deathbed to go participate
in a murder. I mean, it's sort of juvenile to me,
the reality of it all, because again, the longer you're

(01:20:46):
in the life, the more hypocrisy you know about it.

Speaker 4 (01:20:49):
And it also helps show the treachery of the life
because it has certainly happened that guys are assigned murders
and if the murder goes bad, they're killed in punishment
for it and to get rid of the trail. And
even in some successful cases, the murderers are then killed

(01:21:09):
by their own family to help cover up the paper trail.
So it's a it's a really hazardous assignment and a
lack of trust.

Speaker 1 (01:21:17):
What do you guys think about So with the evolution
of podcasting and YouTube now there are some pretty big
name people who have YouTube channels or podcasts, Michael Franzis
and Samuel boul What do you guys think about them
kind of coming out? And I mean Sammy, I mean
he just got out of prison what like a few
years ago, I think three or four years ago, and

(01:21:40):
he immediately took to the social media aspect. And I mean,
if you do it right, it's a great money maker
and it's legit, But what are your guys' thoughts on
some of these?

Speaker 5 (01:21:53):
I don't really support it. Sat those podcasts, I don't
watch it. I mean I've watched a few to compare
how he talks today to like the Diane Sawyer interview. Yes,
and you almost came across as a braggart back then
and cites how he's which I found funny about how

(01:22:15):
he wasn't involved in narcotics. He won't be involved with
those drinks drug dealers he was, and look at when
he got arrested for the future. And I remember, you know,
I say, when I went to interview him on the
narcotics case that I was looking at regarding this capol

(01:22:35):
in the benson Hurst area, and that's his neighborhood. I
asked him, how did he make money? Oh, I don't know.
I could ask the ten year old kid in the
neighborhood and they would say narcotics. And so at that
point it was like the shortest interview of a cooperator
for me. And I was like, you know, I'm not
going to put a liar on this dad, and I'm
not going to go through you know, a circle jerk

(01:22:56):
with this guy. So me and my partner, Dugherty, we
just sort of left and left the thing that you know,
jumped down. Well, his handling aid George Gabriel, Maddy Trick Arica,
and Frankie Spirow. These are the FBI agents that were
you know basically in I have total respect for them.
I mean, he served their purpose, their case well. And

(01:23:20):
I do think that his cooperation was a combination of
al di Arco's cooperation. But at the same time, I
think he looked back on Maddie and Frank respected them
because of a member of his family died and they
basically after ceremony and everything, they passed on their condolences

(01:23:42):
to hit him for this passing of this relative. I
don't know if it was the mother or father. So
he respected that there was a comfort zone with cooperating there.
But you know, I Daugherty subsequently was part of a
security detail for Gravano after he was off the street,

(01:24:02):
and this was a partner I thoroughly enjoyed. He's from Boston,
he's blunt, and Gravano got the impression eadn't like them
when and he said, you're right, I don't like you,
which you know, Dartie is pretty blunt. I got a
kick out of that.

Speaker 3 (01:24:19):
It's all right.

Speaker 7 (01:24:19):
What do you think about all that, Dan, all these uh,
you know, former mobsters and stuff like that starting to
get more public and telling their stories.

Speaker 4 (01:24:28):
Yeah, I don't really pay any attention to any of it.
I you know, I spent enough time doing this kind
of work that I don't feel any reason to listen
to them talk about it. So I'm speaking from a
vacuum of information. But to the degree that they expose treachery,
hypocrisy make it less appealing because of flex reality.

Speaker 6 (01:24:49):
Then I think it's a good thing.

Speaker 4 (01:24:51):
But if it's kind of like trading stories about oh wow,
look at what wonderful tough guys we were and all
the things that we did that you should aspire to you,
then that it's a horrible message.

Speaker 3 (01:25:02):
I can agree with.

Speaker 7 (01:25:03):
That's a good Uh, that's a good point of view,
because they do I mean I listened to them depending
on what what the topic is a lot of times,
but they do actually talk quite a bit about some
of the hypocrisy and all the backstabbing.

Speaker 3 (01:25:17):
And everything like that.

Speaker 5 (01:25:19):
So that is a.

Speaker 1 (01:25:20):
Good point of view right there. But With that being said,
Mike and Dan, if you could tell me and my
listeners one thing about this book that'll make them want
to buy it, what would that be.

Speaker 5 (01:25:35):
There is a scandal and we don't address it's in
the book, and it'll be in the book. We've got
the book. The pre publication from the FBI came back,
and so I think they'd be very interested in that.
It's a headache for me because I found out after
I left the bureau what was going on. It's extortion

(01:25:57):
type of contact, and I would have loved to have
the person arrested for me.

Speaker 4 (01:26:02):
It's I would say, if your listeners are interested in
learning about the real mafia from people who were deeply
embedded from a law enforcement perspective in investigating and prosecuting
them at the highest levels in the country, this is
a fascinating read. If you're interested in true crime, fascinating read.

(01:26:24):
If you like interesting and entertaining stories, this is up there.
And we embed you were in there as well, because
Mike and I we just like to laugh a lot,
and so it's not you know, it's not a somber
kind of like buckle yourself in for the horror. I
mean there's that for sure, but there we also try
to make it very human. So I'm not sure if

(01:26:47):
that really answers your question, but that's that's.

Speaker 3 (01:26:49):
Yeah, yeah, it does.

Speaker 1 (01:26:51):
Actually In speaking which what was what was one of
the one of the funniest parts of your guys' career
working with the mind. Just one thing that stands out
that you still think about that you just laugh.

Speaker 5 (01:27:04):
I have a funny story because I remember a bank
robbery agent coming up to me and my desk saying,
I have a witness of a bank robbery who appears
in your case file. And I said, what's the name?
They said, Carmel and Pulito. I go, He's not a witness,
he's the bank robbery. And it was, you know, it
was a comical The look is like a deer in headlights.

(01:27:27):
What do you mean? And basically the bank that was
located next to his Pietezia was rock And apparently when
I told him to go back and look at the
details of when he opened his safety deposit bops, which
I think the bank robberies stored their guns to come into.
It was a comical moment because when you look at

(01:27:47):
the bank robbery and I see the photos from the
bank robbery cameras, I can see, you know, be like
looking at me with a baseball cat on it and
glasses coming into the bank. It's not hard to figure
out who the banker. So there are some funny stories.
I had a van on Mulberry Stream where I was
trying to get Originally I was a distance away, just
photographing the guy's frequencing the social club. But eventually I

(01:28:11):
had the van located right outside of the social club
and the bank robbers came out and started talking about
banker and referring to my van. We need a van
like this. I've been in shootout before. It was comical for.

Speaker 6 (01:28:23):
Me, I could.

Speaker 4 (01:28:24):
There's one probably that stands out as the funniest for me.
So I was preparing Mike cookie Durso to testify Charles.
This is the guy who was the undercover operative who
took who helped Mike camp Be take down the you know,
arguably the biggest undercover operation in law enforcement history. So
I was spending a lot of time with him. He
was in what's called a safe house, a house where

(01:28:47):
he and his family wouldn't be killed because obviously the
mob was looking to kill him, and I would go
out there on the weekends and spend weekends with him
and his family preparing him for trial. And one of
those meetings they were he and his dad were saying
how much they missed New York pastries. So I said, hey, guys,
you know, I'll go. I'll pick up whatever you want

(01:29:07):
and i'll bring it out on Saturday morning or Sunday whatever.
So they told me the name of some pastry and
I ended up going to Narrow's Bakery in the city,
and I couldn't remember what they said, but to the
best of my memory, I asked the guy for schwung ghul,
and the guy behind the pastry it looks at me

(01:29:28):
like I'm an imbecile, and he hands me something.

Speaker 6 (01:29:31):
So I'm like, okay, great, I got it.

Speaker 4 (01:29:32):
So I drive out to Drso and his dad and
his family the next morning and I say, hey, guys,
here's a shunghoul that you asked for, and I'm very
proud of myself. And he and his father look at
each other and they start bursting into laughter. They go,
what did you just say? I said, you asked me
for a strong gole. Here it is, and they go,
Dan that's half you in Italian. That the fuck you

(01:29:55):
that I had just said they'd asked for shoi tel
it somehow transitioned to shruck you. So they just they
were doubled over crying with laughter. And then the end
of the story is twenty years later, for complicated reasons,
Drso and my campion I started to spend some time together.

(01:30:17):
This is twenty years after and one of the first
things Derso brings up to me, He's like, Dad, do
you remember shrug ghoul? And I start laughing. So every
conversation after that, virtually every conversation whoever got in the
first word, either me or DRSA would be hey, Shrunk, Well,
how you doing?

Speaker 3 (01:30:33):
That is awesome?

Speaker 1 (01:30:36):
Do you guys have any anything planning for the future,
like book Wise or anything like that, going around speaking
or anything.

Speaker 5 (01:30:44):
I think some airplugs.

Speaker 4 (01:30:46):
Maybe the answer to that is a little bit circuitous.
But there's a long tail to this justin and there
were a lot of movie and television people very interesting
in this awesome yeah, and they've kind of resurfaced, So
I don't know if it will go anywhere, but that's

(01:31:07):
that's being discussed actively right now.

Speaker 5 (01:31:10):
And I'm joking about the air plugs. I'm not going
to waste that money.

Speaker 1 (01:31:16):
Oh man, that is outstanding, fellas. I thank you so
much for spending a Saturday with me for a couple hours.
And you know, if you want to, you're always welcome
to come back on together individually whatever, to talk about anything,
even if you want to promote the book more. I'm
totally cool with that. But I can't thank you guys enough.

Speaker 4 (01:31:36):
Yeah, absolutely, thank you. Justin, can we just get out
the name of the book. It's called War Against the
Mafia and it's available on Amazon dot com, Barnzanola dot com,
any any of those kind of places. And if you
just put War against the Mafia, it should pop up
and you can pre order it. It's coming out in
a few weeks, but you can click on pre order.

(01:31:59):
Here's the thought on possibly coming back if this makes
sense to you, if yours come back with like I
wish you would ask ABC and there are no I
think Mike and I would be happy to do follow
up answers to those questions.

Speaker 1 (01:32:13):
That will definitely happen because people listen, they'll be like,
oh man, you know I didn't see the post asking
about questions or something like that. Well, like I said,
I appreciate you guys taking the time out of your
Saturday and I hope you guys have a great rest of.

Speaker 5 (01:32:27):
Your day you too, Thank you very much.

Speaker 4 (01:32:30):
It was a pleasure and enjoyed the weekend.

Speaker 3 (01:32:33):
Thank you Genemen so much than care. Thank you guys,
take care too.

Speaker 6 (01:32:36):
Bye bye

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War Against the Mafia - Interview w/ Dan Dorsky and Mike Campi

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