May 17, 2023 • 50 mins
I'm sure we've all seen the news update on the Zodiac Killer. Here's some of the inside info on what's going on, that you won't read in the news. I'm joined by Jen Bucholtz to break down, and add to the recent information.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:17):
Welcome everybody to this episode of MysteriousCircumstances. This is a Zodiac update episode
because the same day I'm dropping thisepisode is the same day that a bunch
of news just broke. I basicallywanted to do an update with Jen to
help explain exactly what is in thenews and what's going on, and help
(00:40):
explain some of the DNA talk aswell. So Jen, I appreciate you
joining me again. How are youdoing? Not a problem? I'm glad
to be here, and I hopethat we can bring some clarification, you
know, for people who aren't reallytrained or well versed in forensics in DNA.
Absolutely so, I guess with thatbeing said, help me explain,
(01:04):
like what's going on with the pressrelease? What do you know? Because
you are going to be doing apresentation on this, so you are way
more familiar with it than I am. You have the inner and outer workings
of it. I will do mybest. If everything goes as planned today,
when this episode drops, there willhave been a press release that went
(01:26):
out to all the major news networksthis morning talking about new DNA evidence in
the Zodiac case. This is somethingwe've been working on for at least two
years, even longer than when thelast big press release came out in October
twenty twenty one. Obviously, we'vebeen doing all this behind the scenes with
strict confidentiality agreements, but since thepress release has now dropped, we can
(01:49):
talk a lot more about what's goingon from the DNA aspect. There's been
so much skepticism and criticism from people, some who are well vested in the
Zodia case. They've got their ownsuspects, even people who don't know the
Zodiac case that well, because everyone'slike, oh, I don't have any
DNA, you know. And aswe explained previously, there's a now retired
(02:12):
news anchor named Dale Julian and I'mjust going to give listeners a background because
probably not everybody knows this. SoI got to backtrack a little bit.
About three and a half years ago, a guy named Dale Juelan reached out
to me. He had read anarticle I wrote on behavioral analysis as it
applies to homicide. In that article, I had mentioned Zodiac and taunting the
police with his letters. So Dalehad like a Google search set up on
(02:37):
his computer to automatically notify him anytimea new article came out mentioning Zodiac,
so that's how he found me.He reached out to me at the university,
sent me a quick email basically saying, you know, this is who
I am. You can google meto you know, see my credentials.
And I think I've figured out whocommitted the Zodiac murders and I've written a
book on it. Would you readit? And so, of course,
(02:59):
I mean, I was like,okay, okay, here's another person who
thinks they've solved Zodiac. And Ihate saying that. Now. I feel
so bad because Dale's an amazing guy. He'd just done a thousands of hours
of work on this case, andhis work is solid, in my opinion.
So I read his manuscript and I'mnot even joking at all when I
say this. I was probably thirtyforty pages in and I was fascinated.
(03:22):
And then once I learned the evidencehe was uncovering through the cryptic letters that
Zodiac had sent to law enforcement,I felt one hundred percent confident he'd figured
it out. And so we talkedand he's like, I don't know what
to do. I've gone to theFBI, I've gone to the NYPD.
I'm sorry, SFPD, all thesedifferent law enforcement agencies, nobody will listen
(03:43):
to me, and I was kindof like, I don't know what to
do either. But I asked aroundat the university and one of my fellow
employees introduced me to a guy namedTom Colbert, who runs the Case Breakers,
which you and I are both officialmembers of. Now I got in
touch with Tom and I learned abouthis background and work on a couple other
high profile cases. Dale asked meto give him the manuscript, so I
(04:08):
did, and Tom had the exactsame reaction I did. He read it
in a day and said, ohmy gosh, you know this is earth
shattering to me, and I thinkhe's got it right. So from there,
Tom has sort of taken the reinsand I've spent many hours on the
phone with Dale. I've tried tohelp him on anagrams, but really my
only role in all of this wasthe conduit to get him in touch with
(04:29):
someone that could run down this evidenceand get in touch with law enforcement.
So let's the backstory on that.So anyways, fast forward to October twenty
twenty one. There's a big pressrelease out there. People can google it
basically identifying a guy named Gary FrancisPost as the Zodiac Killer. Now,
I also want to clarify, wehave never claimed to have solved the case.
(04:51):
There's this huge misconception that we madethat claim. That is not true.
We understand that case it's not solveduntil the investigating authority says it is.
But we think that we have uncoveredenough evidence that all points to Gary
Francis Post as the perpetrator. No, I agree, And that was when
we broke like a lot of thenews or not we but the case breakers
(05:14):
broke that news. There were alot of media outlets who were very generous
to themselves with the headlines, andit just spiraled out a little bit.
And I remember you getting a lotof stuff. You were just getting a
lot of shit on social media andwhatnot because you were the spokesperson. But
(05:36):
you were also you know, investedin the case for the last couple of
years because of Dale, who amazingwork and just the information that he has
compiled in the researches. Okay,I can't even imagine that man has dedicated
a good part of his life tothis. Yes, so the better part
(05:57):
of the last ten years. Yeah, absolutely, ten years. Yeah,
We've only been involved for a coupleand I remember when I joined the case
Breakers, this was one of thehuge ones that Tom kept talking about,
and it would be really quiet forlike six months, and then here comes
Tom. You know, he's like, Hey, this is what's going on,
YadA YadA. I guess with thatbeing said, what is the main
(06:20):
goal that we're trying to do witha lot of the forensics right now and
how did that come about? Well, the ultimate goal in the forensic aspect
is either proving or disproving that GaryFrancis Post is connected to these multiple homicides
that fell up under the moniker ofthe Zodiac killer. That's the ultimate goal.
(06:41):
And we really could care less ifthe DNA proves him not related to
any of these cases, because atleast that answers a huge question and then
we can move on. I don'tthink that's going to be the case,
but you never know. The frustrationthrough the years has been that we had
items with Gary's DNA on it,and none of the law enforcement agencies would
(07:03):
take those items and develop the DNAprofile to compare to what they have.
So what we ended up having todo is do it ourselves and it's I'm
gonna keep I'm gonna stay tactful here, but it really pisses me off that
we've had to pay and do thework of law enforcement last couple of years.
Absolutely many of us are thousands ofdollars out of our pocket because of
(07:25):
their refusal to cooperate. So letme just put that out there. So
what we did, really, whatDale did was developed sources in Grovellne,
California, which is where Gary Postslived for the majority of his adult life.
He was a house painter there.After the last press release. Actually
no, I'm sorry, it wasbefore the last press release. Dale had
developed these sources in town. Well, one of them came to him and
(07:46):
said, hey, Gary's former neighborhas a bunch of camping gear that Gary
gave him, and these buckets ofspent shellcasings and even some live rounds.
Would that be of interest to you? Of course, Dale's like yeah,
So we sent a team from thecase breakers up to grosven to collect those
(08:07):
items as forensically competent as possible,maybe is the way to put it.
So I told the team, youneed to pretend you are badged armed law
enforcement, adhering to the proper chainof custody, and so what they did
was take video during this entire exchange. They obviously logged each item on a
chain of custody sheet, put itinto the proper packaging with gloves on,
(08:30):
took video of the whole process,so there's proof. And then it got
mailed off to a woman named FrancineBardol in Utah who runs her own DNA
extraction lab. She used the mbackmethod and her own Bardol DNA extraction method
to get DNA profiles off this campinggear and many of the spent shellcasings.
(08:52):
She in turn sent those mback filtersand Bardol filters to another lab in California
because she doesn't actually develop a DNAprofile, she just extracts the DNA from
items. So she sent those filtersover to the lab in California and they
developed various DNA profiles. It cameback with three, so we were stuck
(09:13):
for a little while because we didn'tknow which of the three belonged to Gary
Post. We were pretty confident thatone of them had to be his because
these items that belonged to him,but we didn't know how. I mean,
we knew how, but we hadn'tdone it yet, but we had
to figure out a way to determinewhich of those three profiles belonged to Gary
Post. And this has been monthsand months in the making. So recently,
(09:37):
another case Breaker team member traveled toanother state in the US and I'll
leave it at that, and throughdevelopment of a confidential informant was able to
obtain some forensically valuable items from oneof Gary France's Post close relatives. We
in turn sent those items to thelab different lab and they developed a singular
(10:05):
DNA profile off three different items.When we compared the three profiles off those
items with Gary Francis Post, thereare so many a wheels in common that
we can say with pretty high confidencethat we now know which of our original
three profiles belongs to Gary. Andso what has gone on this week is
(10:26):
that DNA profile of Gary Post hasbeen presented to the Riverside Police Department because,
according to a History Channel special afew years back, they developed a
DNA profile off hairs that were foundat the Sherry Joe Bates murder scene,
and we have asked them to makea comparison between Gary's DNA and what they
have now at the time of thisrecording. Obviously we don't have an answer
(10:50):
because they haven't been approached yet,so I can't speak to what their response
is. Does that make sense?Yes? Actually that was a very good
breakdown because, like me and youwere talking before recording, the information that
we got a lot of it wasinformation that we had previously known. I
think it was like eighteen pages ofinformation and I think maybe two or three
(11:11):
of them were related to the actualDNA. And when I'm reading it,
it does not make a bit ofsense to me. So I was like,
I want to get Jen on andI mean I was going to do
an update anyway, because Tom hadgot a hold of me, and he's
like, hey, can you dothis and release it the same day as
the press release? And I'm like, yeah, that's no problem. But
I have no idea what I'm talkingabout. Man, I have no idea
(11:35):
what's And he's like, there willbe a whole chain of people to email
if you want some interviews. AndI'm sorry, Jen, I'm dragging you
into this because and you already workedtogether on other stuff. Yeah, and
it's it's way more casual of aconversation than somebody I don't know, and
I know you have that forensics background, so it makes it a lot easier.
(11:58):
It's pretty much been and I'm nottrying to take credit for all of
us or anything, but in termsof the forensic and this DNA quest,
it's pretty much been me and Francine, along with Tom and others on the
team you included who have had countlesszoom meetings brainstorming, but her and I
basically advising them what we think wasthe best path to try to get this
(12:20):
answer. I'm not just a talkinghead. Have been involved in the process
the whole way, and I havea very good understanding of what's gone on.
So yeah, I totally agree.And I remember when everything got sent
to Francine, and I know Tomwas extremely excited about that opportunity to get
the stuff, finally get the DNAactually extracted, and especially when we got
(12:43):
the shell casings and stuff that thatwas a very huge deal. Yeah,
and then of course we have theciphers as well. Yes, that is
always a huge thing when it comesto the Zodiac and you were telling me
before recording there's a cipher that wascracked or an annam and it leads to
another anagram that needs to be cracked. Can you kind of get a little
(13:07):
bit more run on that. Actually, you were right. It started as
a cipher because it came in codedform, and this is the three forty
cipher. Probably most people listening knowwhat that is. But again, just
google it and you can see theoriginal three forty cipher that was sent in
by the Zodiac killer. It's calledthree forty because there's three hundred forty characters,
but they're not all like American lettersor anything. Some of them are
(13:31):
just made up coded characters. Andso it took oh gosh, I don't
even know how many years, butdecades. I think it was late twenty
twenty one that some brilliant guys developeda computer program just for that cipher,
I believe, and it finally crackedit, and it revealed a message in
English from the Zodiac. But everybodywas kind of disappointed because it didn't really
(13:56):
say anything like, you know,this is who I am and blah blah
blah, but actually does Here's thething, and one hundred percent credit to
those guys. I am so gladthey cracked it. Here's the problem.
It's another anagram and it needs tobe decoded one more time and Dale,
and I mostly Dale because I justsuck at anagrams. But I've tried,
(14:16):
I've tried. I don't even test. Oh my gosh, it's it will
literally give you a headache. Buthe's brilliant at it, and he has
he had the methodology down because he'sbeen cracking the zodiac letters for years.
Anyways, he's part way through decodingthat anagram. But it's huge, right,
it's three hundred forty letters. Butwhat I will reveal, and I'm
(14:39):
not going to reveal all the sentencesthat he's figured out so far. But
as with all the other zodiac letters, Gary Francis post name is in the
last third, and there is asong title or lyric I forget in the
first third. I have it writtendown somewhere. But and that falls right
in mind with the m O ofall the other letters. All the anagrams
(15:01):
that Dale is decoded have Gary's namein the last third and then usually a
song title. From the fifties orsixties, there's been a couple movie quotes,
I think even a couple of theater. Gary Post really liked the theater,
so I think there's like a coupleof references to theater, and that's
always in the first third. Throughthe years, Dale had always been told
(15:24):
Sherry Joe Bates was not a Zodiacvictim. She definitely not. Then that's
Riverside still stands by that now.And so he never looked at the confession
letter that was sent in after SherryJoe Bates was murdered. He just put
it aside because he figured it wasirrelevant. Well, recently he said,
you know what, let me takea second look at this, and whn't
you know? So he found thatthere's clues in both the envelopes and the
(15:48):
actual letter contained within. And sohe's already cracked the whole envelope. I
will leave it to him to revealwhat it says. But he's in the
middle of working on the actual confessionletter. And again Gary's name is in
the last third, and there isa song title or lyric in the first
third, and he's also figured outa bunch of the other senses. And
so I suggested, I don't knowif this will be done, but I
(16:11):
suggested, just submit, even thoughit's unfinished at the moment, but submit
what he has so far decoded onthat confession letter with the DNA and just
explain to Riverside, like, notonly is here the DNA we want you
to compare, but here's kind ofsome evidence that falls in line with all
the other research and anagram decoding thatDale has done through the years. And
(16:36):
he's finally able to be public now. There was a situation where he couldn't
really come out and say much abouthis work. And I think that was
one of the advantages, I guess, of having Tom and the case Breakers,
because everybody else was able to takethat information and run with it when
he couldn't yes publicly do anything.And he is out now and the case
(17:00):
Breakers has a YouTube channel and Dale'sbeen on there. It's talking a lot
of stuff. I mean, likeI said, he's an amazing dude.
And when it comes down to it, let's say, when we get this
DNA and which we have, whatis the next step, Because I know
(17:22):
we have to give this to lawenforcement and have them actively test it against
evidence that was found at the scene. I believe some hair can we elaborate
on that at all, So theyactually don't even have to do any testing.
Literally, all they need to dois take our piece of paper that
has Gary's DNA profile on it.I'm not as good as explaining what each
(17:45):
line of an actual profile means.But we all have these alleles in our
DNA, and the paper with theprofile has a bunch of numbers and letters
and all this stuff, and it'sto me that's foreign. It looked but
anyway looks like gibberish. I'm noteven gonna light it does. I was,
like, it does, it doesn'teven look like I mean, I
(18:06):
can make one, yeah, so, but all I have to do is
take our print out and compare itto their print out from the hairs and
see how many leles are in common. And if there's you know, a
high number in common, you've gota pretty good suspect to look at for
the murder of Sherry Joe Bates.So there's not even any as far as
I understand, there's not even anylike in depth forensic testing that needs to
(18:30):
be done. We just need someonein the lab who's certified to look at
these two profiles and say yea ornay. And for some reason they've been
so resistant, I'm honestly curious asto why they keep saying that Bates is
not a victim of Zodiac. Idon't know, because back in the years
after her murder, the Riverside Policechief or not emailed. Sorry they do
(18:55):
this back then, but he eithercalled or and it's in writing. He
sent a letter also to SFPD saying, Hey, I've read about your series
of murders up there. I thinkmine might be part of that series or
committed by the same perpetrator. Sohe believed that in the very beginning,
and then through the years, differentpolice chiefs and people have changed that narrative.
(19:15):
But what we know is Gary FrancisPost was in the Riverside area at
the time of Sherry Joe Bates's murder. There's a watch that came off the
perpetrator. It broke and was leftat the scene. It is a military
watch that was only sold on Postfrom my understanding, and had paints batter
on it, which was Gary's profession. Again circumstantial, right, but still
(19:38):
it's something. And then there wasa size ten military bootprint at the scene
too that matched bootprints from other Zodiacscenes. So I'm a little confused as
to how they're just going to ignoreall that. And also Gary was receiving
medical treatment at I'm sorry, Ican't remember the name of the base,
but it's about a fifteen minute drivefrom the Sherry Joe Bates murder and so
(20:00):
again that solidifies that he was downin that area at the time of her
murder. With all this information given, and I can guarantee people cracked open
and read a bunch of articles,whether those articles are informative or not.
That's why I kind of wanted todo this, because we break down the
process. You know, every weall know how the media works. They're
(20:22):
gonna have a sensational headline and they'regonna give some some key talking points,
maybe three or four paragraphs, andthat's going to be it, and everybody's
either going to be like, Oh, they solved it, or oh they're
totally wrong because I got the rightguy and these you know, I'm gonna
have to ignore Twitter again like amonth or more than likely. Yeah,
(20:44):
I believe the lashing last time.I'm like, whoa. It was so
brutal. And it's so funny becauseevery time I posted something about it,
there's usually four or five people thatare just like, Nope, that's not
it, You're wrong. I alwaystry to put a little bit of teasers
because Tom is like, hey,you know, put a little teaser out.
(21:06):
He's like, don't say much.You can't say not because lawyers are
involved and shit like that. AndI'm like, no, that's fine,
Like I'll just put a little teaser, and of course that just brings I
don't know if people, I swearpeople go on social media and just type
in Zodiac killer like once or twicemy day, and then they're just like
(21:27):
scrolling through to see what's going on. And I mean, I have Google
alerts set up for certain things thatI follow as well. But and I
know that's gonna come the seventeenth,which we're recording this ahead of time,
but you guys are listening in realtime, posting this at twelve pm Eastern,
so news probably broke an hour twoago. And yeah, so it's
(21:51):
gonna be it's gonna be all over. But with that being said, what
can people look for in the future, What with the information that we provided,
with the information that is in thearticles and the media outlets right now,
what kind of stuff can they lookfor in the short term future.
(22:11):
Well, obviously, our ideal outcomewould be that Riverside would take our information
and do a comparison and give usa result. Whatever that result, maybe
I have a feeling it's going tobe another fight. They've been super resistant
to talk to us or do anythingwith us, which I don't really.
If you can clear our cold caseoff your books without doing any work on
(22:32):
it, and everybody volunteered their timeto do your work for you, what's
the problem that's like, what fiftysixty years old? It's from sixty six?
I think, yeah, I meancome on, so, I mean
that's our ideal hope. But likeI said, that probably won't happen.
So we're gonna have another like youknow, media battle or something. And
but what should happen hopefully later thisyear, is Dale's book gets published.
(22:55):
Yes, him and Tom Lawyers andwhat it's above my pay grade, But
they came to some agreement at thelast press release that they were going to
hold off publishing his book. Ithink also part of it is because it's
not complete, right, like untilwe know for sure if Gary Post is
a guy or not, Dale can'tactually finish the book, and he keeps
(23:15):
cracking anagram, so then he keepshaving to write more chapters, so it
is technically a work in progress.But when I talked to him last weekend.
He had plans to get it publishedin the near future, and I
really think once everybody reads it,you're gonna understand where we're coming from and
why we're so convinced as to hiswork being valid. And Dale didn't seek
(23:37):
out the Zodiac case. He knewnothing about it. Even though he was
like a news anchor in California.He'd heard of it, like me,
right, he didn't know the detailsof it. What happened was a homeless
guy came to his news station severalyears ago and sought Dale out, specifically
because he really liked his reporting,and Dale took a chance on him and
they had lunch and Dale obviously boughtbut the guy gave him Gary Francis post
(24:00):
name and explained to Dale why hethought that his stepfather was Zodiac. Now
I know there's a thousand other peopleout there who have thought their father,
grandfather, whoever, was Zodiac too, But Dale thought his story sound incredible
and he just kind of became interested, and so he did some digging on
his own, and he kept intouch with this guy and they kind of
(24:22):
worked together for a while, andit was literally on a whim when Dale
was home one day, his wifewas out somewhere. It was like a
weekend, I think, and hewas just kind of staring at I think
it was the Halloween letter, andhe's like, wait a minute, I
think there's more to this. Andso he what he did was typed up
all the letters that are included inthe Halloween letter, and then he increased
the font size to a big sizeand printed it out, and then he
(24:45):
cut up each individual letter out ofthe paper that he printed and so then
he had this group of letters andhe kind of like he decided to sort
of like shuffle him around right andthen start from scratch. And he was
giggling how to solve an anagram?And by the way, he gives great
credit to anagramsalver dot net has beena huge website that has been of great
(25:06):
help to him. And it tookhim a little while, but he realized
if he rearranged the letters, hehad a message that actually made sense and
I'm not going to give it away, but it'll be in his book.
And so he just started doing thisone letter at a time. And you
know, there's the Peek through thePines postcard, there's the three whole punch
card, and he just kind ofworked on him over time, one by
(25:27):
one and realized they're all anagrams thatGary Post name was included in. And
here's where we get so much criticism. So I strongly believe Dale is the
only person who realized how this casehad to be worked, which is backwards.
That's not usually how a work case. But he needed the name of
(25:49):
the perpetrator first in order to crackthese anagrams. And then going back to
the Halloween card, I think therevelation was like, well, all the
letters of Gary Francis Posts are inthere, let me take those away and
see what's left. And that's whenhe realized there's an alternate message. And
again he used that same methodology withall of these letters. So the peek
(26:10):
through the pines and the three wholepunch and the three forty anagram, and
you know, the first thing hedoes is he takes Gary Francis Post letters
out of it. That is thekey to the cipher. And you cannot
properly break a cipher anagram without thekey, and nobody ever had it,
and I think nobody ever even thoughtto look at these messages deeper, like
there might be something more to them. Oh absolutely, hopefully that helps too.
(26:34):
No, it definitely does. Andlike I told people, the last
time a lot of this news broker, it was in the media, and
it was I don't know, likea year, year and a half ago.
It was, you know, realbig. The thing that people don't
realize is I wish that they couldsee the information that we have, Like,
yeah, because I read through,you know, eighteen or twenty five
(26:57):
pages of the documentation that we havefor the team members, and it's annoying,
but I understand why. But theythey only report or give up like
maybe ten or fifteen, maybe twentypercent of the information, and it's yeah,
that's what drives me crazy. Andother people just think, oh,
(27:18):
well, this doesn't you know,this is total bullshit, blah blah blah.
It's like you guys don't even know, Like I don't even know,
man, Like I wish that wecould just like that eighteen pages we got
the other day. I wish thatfull eighteen pages could be published, just
the whole thing. But we bothknow that's not going to happen, and
(27:41):
that's not up to us. Absolutelyabsolutely, Yeah, it's a proprietary info,
you know, And it's it givesus a way better understanding. And
when people read these articles or youknow, see a headline, you know,
headline media outlets, you guys allknow how it is. They sensational
(28:02):
headline. It could be misleading,it could say this, And like you
had said earlier on, we neverclaim to solve it. That's not our
job. Our job is collecting theinformation and doing the research, and then
giving that information and research to theproper authorities so that they can close a
case, not us. But whenpeople saw that, they started accusing you.
(28:26):
You know, They're like, oh, you didn't solve shit. I'm
like, yeah, she never saidshe did. Nobody ever said that.
But Dale's work is so in depth. When he actually does release this book,
I think it will give people away better understanding of where he's coming
from. And I'm sure there's stillgoing to be those critics out there,
of course, who have the confirmationby us. And that's the big thing
(28:51):
with me, and that's how I'vealways gone into cases. A lot of
people ask me, oh, youknow when you research an unsolved case or
even work on one, and aswe know, I don't like having you
know, they're like, oh,did you listen to this podcast, I'm
like, no, I don't listento shit because I want to go in
with an open mind. I don'twant anything persuading me. And you had
(29:15):
mentioned something when we started working onJudy's case for safe Haven. You said,
we like to go in blind.We don't want all this information.
We want to look at it blindand see where we come from and then
kind of collect more information from thereand see if it jives with what we
got. And Dale just on awhim, happened to get this information and
(29:40):
it all started driving up. Andhopefully one day that book gets published,
people will totally understand where we're comingfrom. I sure hope so, because
there's been so much going on forlike the last two years with this and
me and you. Sometimes I'm notgonna lie whether it's him or not.
(30:00):
Just solve the damn case, youknow, I careless. It's like I've
never been a huge Zodiac guy.I've done it at all. Like there's
so many like me, and youalways say, there's what two hundred and
sixty thousand plus unsolved cases out there, Okay, we need to concentrate on
some of that the famous ones Iget. I understand where we're coming from.
(30:23):
But like me and you always talk, we're like, just end it,
just solve it, and just getit done, you know. And
the frustrating part I think that wecan both agree on is that when we
do provide law enforcement agencies with informationor a DNA profile for that matter,
like, dude, just run it. You know what is the problem.
(30:44):
Just fucking run it. Yeah,it's frustrating, But what's dumb is to
use one word. Gary Francis Postwas arrested in twenty sixteen. I believe
it's for frusaulting his wife. I'mpushing her down the stairs. Guess what
At that time in California, ifyou're arrested for a felony, you have
to give up your DNA and thenguess what's supposed to happen with it.
It's supposed to be put in codus. Guess what never happened yep. And
(31:10):
so again because of this, it'snot even oversight. I mean, it's
just egregious on behalf of law enforcement. And then they destroyed his DNA.
So now again, for the lasttwo years, we've had to spend our
own money to try to develop hisDNA profile. So I hope those people
feel happy about that. Yeah,I'm glad that hopefully when this news breaks
(31:33):
and the information that we provide themedia outlets, I'm glad that we're actually
calling people out this time. Youhave to. You still have Zodiac victims
family members alive that's like twenty plus, like siblings and what like. They
still deserve justice, you know,and they, I'm sure just get absolutely
(31:53):
tormented year after year because zodiacson isstill in the media all the time and
all these people you know, comingout of the woodwork thinking they solved it
and all this stuff, like theyhave to, They've had to relive it
their whole lives. Not is terrible. I mean, they deserve a little
resolution, and so for law enforcementto fall short because of their pride is
(32:13):
what I think. Yeah, that'sinexcusable to these victims families that was your
person that got murdered, you wouldn'tact that way going on that. One
of the comments when I gave alittle teaser on social media was that somebody
made a comment I can't remember who, It doesn't matter who it was,
but somebody is like, well,I mean this guy would be like ninety
(32:34):
or one hundred years old by now, blah blah blah, And I'm like,
that's not even why is that evena fucking thing? That doesn't even
matter, Like, I don't givea shit. Yeah, you could be
fucking hundred and fifty. I don'tcare. Did the victims still have living
relatives? You deserve that closure,and they deserve to know that certain agencies
have been sitting on this information orrefusing to work with people who are literally
(32:58):
willing to pay for it all anddo it all for them, and then
you know what will happen. Jen, We were actually talking about it the
other day on the phone. It'slike, we're somebody's gonna end up doing
all the work and then some lawenforcement agencies going to have this press conference.
We finally solved the yeah, andit's like, yeah, yeah,
(33:20):
No, you didn't know. Youfucking didn't. I honestly don't even care.
It doesn't matter who gets the credit, which which is fine, It
doesn't It doesn't matter. And lookingat the situation that we have with our
other cases that we work on withAMUM, with Judy's case in Lenda's case,
we have a unique advantage of actuallyworking with law enforcement and the prosecutor's
(33:45):
office and different agencies and stuff areinvolved. And the one thing about the
Prosecutor's office in Wood County with Judy'scase is Doug brought up such a great
point. And I don't know whyI had, just it hit me hard
because he goes, we don't havetime. He goes, you guys got
(34:05):
to understand. You guys have puthundreds of hours into this. You guys
put in probably a week or twobefore you even decided to take the case.
Yeah. Yeah, And he's sittingthere and he said, the thing
about us is, you know,we have maybe a week and then there's
another case that comes in, Yeah, and we have to start on that
one. And he goes, wedon't have the manpower. We don't have
(34:28):
these or they do have the resources, but they don't have the manpower.
He goes, we have to keepup with the current cases. And he
goes, we only have so manypeople in so many hours in a day,
and he goes, you guys area team who are dedicated to one
cold case. And I think thatspoke volumes because they are extremely humble and
(34:50):
I don't want to say thankful,but they kind of are because they're like,
yeah, we'll give you guys morecasepiles if you know, if you
guys want to look at other stuffor whatever. Yeah, But the fact
that there are certain agencies that stillhave the pride getting involved, or if
that Prosecuting Attorney's office doesn't want thePD to get involved, which is also
(35:16):
another thing as well. That's itjust blows my mind. It's like,
why would you not take outside help? Like I don't under I just I'll
never understand that me either. I'lltell a short anecdote that I've never told
because it's just happened last weekend.But in the case that me and George
are focusing on now, which isLinda Malcolm from Port Orchard, Washington,
(35:38):
killed in two thousand and eight lastweekend on a weekend day, I know
the detective is not at work onthe weekend. I got this message late
Saturday night, and obviously I can'treveal anything about the message, but suffices
to say it was interesting enough thatif forward it to her right away.
And I actually texted her Saturday nightand I said, I am so sorry
(36:01):
for bothering you this late at nighton your off day, but if you
have time, this spegning, canyou please check your work amount? And
she goes, I'm reading it rightnow, and I was like, damn,
it's ten thirty her time on theWest Coast on like a weekend,
and I was just like, Ilove her. This is this is amazing,
you know, absolutely, And sowhy can't we have better working relationships
(36:23):
like that with these departments? Andobviously you me, George, Melissa Allen,
all of us on our team ortrying to slowly, one by one
change that. But I think theseagencies and regards to Zodiac could take a
step back maybe and look at ourbackgrounds and what else we've done. I'm
also gonna tell one other small anecdote, and I'm not going to name the
(36:45):
guy because I can't stand him andI don't want to give him any more
attention. But he knows who heis. Who was completely trolling my Twitter
page after the last press release actuallytold me I just ruined my career.
I just want to tell you Inow work from my local sheriff's department as
a criminal investigator on cold cases.So somehow I managed to not ruin my
(37:06):
career with that last press release.I know, well, I don't know
jin maybe this one will ruin it. It's hard to tell. Yeah,
I know, it's so funny,dude. Oh, my superiors don't even
know about case breakers, but theyknow about the AMU team and they're fascinated
by it. Oh for real,Like had discussions about do we have cases
(37:30):
in our department that your team wouldbe appropriate for? And we're not at
that point yet because you know,you know, Melissa are Judy's and me
and me and Georgia in the middleof windows but down the road maybe.
And and right when me and Melissastart I don't want to say winding down,
we get this phone conversation. Itjust full throttled right back up again.
(37:52):
It's like, oh shit. Andthen we're like, we need to
go back to West Virginia. Iknow, I know, word o.
Thank yeah man, I wish Icould be there. And the coolest part
is we picked up Alan. Andfor those listeners who don't know, this
is like one of the coolest thingsabout AMU is there's so many different facets
(38:15):
of people who bring in information thatwe interview and talk to, and it's
all a friend of a friend ofa friend. But everybody is just once
they start looking at something. It'sthe information it's and it's the knowledge.
And with Alan, I am soglad that he is on board with us,
because that dude is insanely awesome andhe's a arson investigator, he's a
(38:40):
fire instructor, he's been doing thisfor thirty thirty five years and his knowledge
on this kind of shit is invaluable. And even Doug was like, wow,
man, like I never knew,Like you can look at burn marks
and tell like all this information fromit. That's the advantage of doing things
(39:00):
like this, And I just Iwish more more agencies were were open to
it. I guess yeah. It'sbasically crowdsource saying were you just absolutely bring
you know, build as big ofa source network as possible. Number one,
particularly in the area where the victimsfrom. But number two, find
people with those expertise that can help, because like you and I aren't are
(39:22):
some experts. I don't know shitabout man Parson. To be honest,
I've learned a lot from Alan becauseof these two cases. I didn't know
a thing about it before. LikeI'm really good at homicide investigation, but
I know what spoling is now withhis little blue and red circles and he's
like, put into all this shit, and I'm like, I don't know
what you're talking about, dude,but I'm ready to learn. And that's
(39:45):
the best part though, is likewe all soak in this knowledge from other
people. Like when we were talkingabout metal, I'm like, dude,
I worked under under a metall er, just like this is my family trade
is literally metal. So me andAlan went back and forth and we're talking
about all this stuff, and Melissaof course pops in and she's like,
I just I just can't even believethis right now. And it's like that's
(40:08):
the best part about it, islike we all have these different things.
I don't know it works. Andthen the crowdsourcing. You know, you
get a thousand people from a smalltown where somebody got killed, people talk,
and you start getting all this informationand everything. And that's what I
think more agencies need to look at, or even prosecutors' offices need to look
(40:30):
at, is saying hey, youknow, maybe they're onto something. And
I think more of them are gettingit because there are other universities who were
starting to do what we're doing.I mean when me and George were in
Port Orchard two weeks ago because itwas the fifteen year anniversary of Linda's murder,
and you know, we had abunch of investigative things to do,
(40:51):
but the first thing we did wasmeet with police. And by the way,
when we walked in the room,this is like my favorite story of
the weekend. We walk in thisconference room thinking it's just going to be
the detective Inner sergeant like last time, and there's this huge conference table with
eight people around it and two emptychairs for me and George. I'm like,
oh, I wonder who all thesepeople are? You know, it
(41:12):
turns out it's the FBI, theAttorney General's office at the state level,
the district attorney, the police chief, the Detective Inner sergeant. And I
was just like with glee in myheart, was like, this is the
dream, Like, this is whatwe work towards, you know, is
building the right team for this person'scase. And the fact that all of
those people took us seriously enough totake time out of their friday, to
(41:36):
me, especially the FBI, Iwas just and that guy was so interesting
to talk to afterwards, but Iwas I was just blown away because you
know, obviously the FBI doesn't justshow up that kind of a meeting for
no reason. And then it wasconfirmed that they are. Now they have
assigned an agent to help with Linda'scase. So and none of that was
happening a year ago. That wasjust a great experience. And I forgot
(42:00):
where I was going with this story. But agencies working with civilians, basically,
that's what it's very It's yeah,it's very advantageous. I don't understand
why more don't do it. AndI can get that it's a pride thing.
I get that, But there's alsopeople with certain specialties that could help
out with shit. Oh and Iknow where I was going with that is
that the detective brought up there's acouple of people who have refused to talk
(42:22):
to law enforcement about Linda's case,but they have reached out to me and
George. Not me and George seekingthem out, but they've reached out to
us feeling comfortable enough to talk withus, and so we've been able to
relay important information from those people tolaw enforcement. But the detective said,
(42:42):
without these two, we would haveno contact with these particular people. And
so that's another thing. And youand you and Melissa have totally experienced O's
case. Like, there's a lotof people in Parkersburg who don't want to
talk to a lot enforce. Hellyeah, that's a small town in West
Virginia. Man, they do notlike cops. And nope, we get
(43:02):
messages and everything like that, andemails and everything. And it's you know,
when me and you showed up atso and so's door when we are
in West Virginia last time, likeif we're cops, that dude hanging ash.
But it's like when people look atme, they're like, oh,
(43:22):
this guy ain't a cop. Iknow that. Yeah, we're normal people
like them exactly. And like we'rein a bar full of people. We're
drinking beers and just hanging out andit's just normal discussion and they're like,
yeah, I did hear something aboutthat. You know, maybe you should
talk to this person. And thenyou get a phone number and then it
just goes from there. That's thething that cops can't do because you know,
(43:45):
even if you're non uniform, youcan usually fucking tell. I think
most of the time they have toidentify themselves as long for us. But
I know when they knock on someone'sstore, they have to for sure.
Absolutely. I don't know if they'relike technically off duty in a bar if
they have to, but I knowthere's definitely some legal limits. Yeah,
(44:07):
definitely how they identify themselves or don'tidentify themselves. Absolutely. All right,
Well, that was a nice tangentthere for sure, Thanks everybody for it,
but hopefully it was enjoyable. Yeah, And that's that's basically the long
story of the point we're trying tomake is we are going to give all
(44:29):
this information from the case breakers thathas been collected, and we're going to
give it to law enforcement, andhopefully they do the right thing and either
give us answers. We don't careif it's yes or no. We don't
care if it is or it isn't. We don't care. Just test it.
Just if if it's not him,cool, exclude him, you know
(44:49):
exactly the way that narrows it down. It's a win win situation. So
I don't know. I guess itwould be. It would be disappointing in
some ways, but it'd be reallyto be I think, But I wouldn't
be totally disappointed. DALE would be. But like, even if they got
up there and they said Okay,we took this group's information, we compared
it to ours. It absolutely doesn'tmatch, and they have to provide proof
(45:12):
that it doesn't match. I'm notjust going to take their word for it.
Yeah. Absolutely, And we caneliminate Gary Francis Post as a killer
of Sherry Joe Bates. Fine,let's do it, because then people who
want to continue digging on that case, it's like, Okay, that's a
that's a question that's answered and wecan look elsewhere. So and one of
the things I could see happening toois they were being like, all right,
(45:32):
Gary Francis Post more than likely killedSherry Joe Bates, but that's not
related to the Zodiac murders, youknow, or something something along those lines.
I can see that'd be an interestingYeah. I think if they can
link them to Sherry, she's goingto have to fall up under the Zodiac
cases. But we'll we'll see whathappens. That's just my thinking. So,
(45:53):
but yeah, I hope this helpedclarify a few things that came out
in the press release. And likeyou said, justin there's a whole lot
more going on. You know,there's supposed to be a hike and a
dig for guns and stuff this summer. And I know we've talked about it
a little bit in the past,but there are some more investigative actions that
are in the works and being planned. So this isn't like the end y
(46:14):
any means. But I will puta quick plug for me and George.
Of course. This Sunday, whichis what the twenty second of May,
George and I will be in Jonesboro, Arkansas. We will be speaking at
an events center called Unwind. It'sreally cool. You get it's a fifty
dollars ticket, but you get drinks, you get you get interaction with other
(46:35):
people, you get snacks or darves, and you get one of our either
the book me and George wrote orone of George's books obviously signed, and
you can just come and hang outwith us, interact and a good portion
of our presentation is going to coverDale's work on the Zodiac case, since
the press release will be out andwe can talk more about it. Yes,
(46:57):
So if you happen to be nearthat area and you have time Sunday
evening, come check us out.And this is a true crime event.
Yeah, okay, I think theynormally call it cocktails and culprits. But
I think because George has done acouple of these on his own, because
obviously we live a long ways awayfrom each other and I couldn't be there
for this one. They may havechanged the title slightly, but that's the
(47:17):
overall theme and it's very it's aprivate event center. It only holds about
forty five to fifty people. LikeI said, it's very interactive. You
know, we definitely welcome in puttingquestions from the audience. We'll hang out
afterwards, you know, We'll havea drink with you and talk about whatever
cases you want to talk about.So we're able to make it. We'd
love to see you. For thoseinterested, George is a foremost expert on
(47:39):
the West Memphis three, So youcan go talk to Jen about Zodiac,
jump over to George talk about theWest Memphis three, and yeah, lots
lots of interaction and you can,like I said, have a couple of
beers and just bludge in gen withquestions. Yeah, I don't mind.
And for those who are interested inour crowdsourcing techno, you can like active
(48:00):
current investigation. I know, justinyouth, I'm sure have pitched your safe
Haven oge and but also you canjoin me and George's the Unsolved Murder of
Linda Malcolm and her last name ism ALcom. It's spelled a little differently,
but just look us up on Facebook. Join and check out our page.
There's a ton of information on there, and of course we welcome any
(48:22):
ideas, analysis, brainstorming, questions, whatever. Absolutely, and if you
want to get caught up on thecase before you join the group, listen
to Break the Case. Oh yeah, that's right. It is available wherever
you listen to podcasts. It certainlyis. Break the Case Season three is
on the Linda Malcolm Murder and ourwork on it. So all right,
Jen, Well, thank you somuch for taking the time out of a
(48:44):
Saturday night. Absolutely appreciated. It'salways a pleasure. I always have fun
to chatting with you. They alwayshave fun, Not like I don't talk
to you almost every day anyway,but I know exactly. I appreciate you
you're having me and thanks to everybodywho's listening and following our work. So
there's a lot more to come.All right, now, we'll see you
(49:06):
folks on the flip side. Thenbye Jin, take care, Bye MHM.
Welcome everybody to this episode of MysteriousCircumstances. This is a Zodiac update episode
because the same day I'm dropping thisepisode is the same day that a bunch
of news just broke. I basicallywanted to do an update with Jen to
help explain exactly what is in thenews and what's going on, and help
(00:40):
explain some of the DNA talk aswell. So Jen, I appreciate you
joining me again. How are youdoing? Not a problem? I'm glad
to be here, and I hopethat we can bring some clarification, you
know, for people who aren't reallytrained or well versed in forensics in DNA.
Absolutely so, I guess with thatbeing said, help me explain,
(01:04):
like what's going on with the pressrelease? What do you know? Because
you are going to be doing apresentation on this, so you are way
more familiar with it than I am. You have the inner and outer workings
of it. I will do mybest. If everything goes as planned today,
when this episode drops, there willhave been a press release that went
(01:26):
out to all the major news networksthis morning talking about new DNA evidence in
the Zodiac case. This is somethingwe've been working on for at least two
years, even longer than when thelast big press release came out in October
twenty twenty one. Obviously, we'vebeen doing all this behind the scenes with
strict confidentiality agreements, but since thepress release has now dropped, we can
(01:49):
talk a lot more about what's goingon from the DNA aspect. There's been
so much skepticism and criticism from people, some who are well vested in the
Zodia case. They've got their ownsuspects, even people who don't know the
Zodiac case that well, because everyone'slike, oh, I don't have any
DNA, you know. And aswe explained previously, there's a now retired
(02:12):
news anchor named Dale Julian and I'mjust going to give listeners a background because
probably not everybody knows this. SoI got to backtrack a little bit.
About three and a half years ago, a guy named Dale Juelan reached out
to me. He had read anarticle I wrote on behavioral analysis as it
applies to homicide. In that article, I had mentioned Zodiac and taunting the
police with his letters. So Dalehad like a Google search set up on
(02:37):
his computer to automatically notify him anytimea new article came out mentioning Zodiac,
so that's how he found me.He reached out to me at the university,
sent me a quick email basically saying, you know, this is who
I am. You can google meto you know, see my credentials.
And I think I've figured out whocommitted the Zodiac murders and I've written a
book on it. Would you readit? And so, of course,
(02:59):
I mean, I was like,okay, okay, here's another person who
thinks they've solved Zodiac. And Ihate saying that. Now. I feel
so bad because Dale's an amazing guy. He'd just done a thousands of hours
of work on this case, andhis work is solid, in my opinion.
So I read his manuscript and I'mnot even joking at all when I
say this. I was probably thirtyforty pages in and I was fascinated.
(03:22):
And then once I learned the evidencehe was uncovering through the cryptic letters that
Zodiac had sent to law enforcement,I felt one hundred percent confident he'd figured
it out. And so we talkedand he's like, I don't know what
to do. I've gone to theFBI, I've gone to the NYPD.
I'm sorry, SFPD, all thesedifferent law enforcement agencies, nobody will listen
(03:43):
to me, and I was kindof like, I don't know what to
do either. But I asked aroundat the university and one of my fellow
employees introduced me to a guy namedTom Colbert, who runs the Case Breakers,
which you and I are both officialmembers of. Now I got in
touch with Tom and I learned abouthis background and work on a couple other
high profile cases. Dale asked meto give him the manuscript, so I
(04:08):
did, and Tom had the exactsame reaction I did. He read it
in a day and said, ohmy gosh, you know this is earth
shattering to me, and I thinkhe's got it right. So from there,
Tom has sort of taken the reinsand I've spent many hours on the
phone with Dale. I've tried tohelp him on anagrams, but really my
only role in all of this wasthe conduit to get him in touch with
(04:29):
someone that could run down this evidenceand get in touch with law enforcement.
So let's the backstory on that.So anyways, fast forward to October twenty
twenty one. There's a big pressrelease out there. People can google it
basically identifying a guy named Gary FrancisPost as the Zodiac Killer. Now,
I also want to clarify, wehave never claimed to have solved the case.
(04:51):
There's this huge misconception that we madethat claim. That is not true.
We understand that case it's not solveduntil the investigating authority says it is.
But we think that we have uncoveredenough evidence that all points to Gary
Francis Post as the perpetrator. No, I agree, And that was when
we broke like a lot of thenews or not we but the case breakers
(05:14):
broke that news. There were alot of media outlets who were very generous
to themselves with the headlines, andit just spiraled out a little bit.
And I remember you getting a lotof stuff. You were just getting a
lot of shit on social media andwhatnot because you were the spokesperson. But
(05:36):
you were also you know, investedin the case for the last couple of
years because of Dale, who amazingwork and just the information that he has
compiled in the researches. Okay,I can't even imagine that man has dedicated
a good part of his life tothis. Yes, so the better part
(05:57):
of the last ten years. Yeah, absolutely, ten years. Yeah,
We've only been involved for a coupleand I remember when I joined the case
Breakers, this was one of thehuge ones that Tom kept talking about,
and it would be really quiet forlike six months, and then here comes
Tom. You know, he's like, Hey, this is what's going on,
YadA YadA. I guess with thatbeing said, what is the main
(06:20):
goal that we're trying to do witha lot of the forensics right now and
how did that come about? Well, the ultimate goal in the forensic aspect
is either proving or disproving that GaryFrancis Post is connected to these multiple homicides
that fell up under the moniker ofthe Zodiac killer. That's the ultimate goal.
(06:41):
And we really could care less ifthe DNA proves him not related to
any of these cases, because atleast that answers a huge question and then
we can move on. I don'tthink that's going to be the case,
but you never know. The frustrationthrough the years has been that we had
items with Gary's DNA on it,and none of the law enforcement agencies would
(07:03):
take those items and develop the DNAprofile to compare to what they have.
So what we ended up having todo is do it ourselves and it's I'm
gonna keep I'm gonna stay tactful here, but it really pisses me off that
we've had to pay and do thework of law enforcement last couple of years.
Absolutely many of us are thousands ofdollars out of our pocket because of
(07:25):
their refusal to cooperate. So letme just put that out there. So
what we did, really, whatDale did was developed sources in Grovellne,
California, which is where Gary Postslived for the majority of his adult life.
He was a house painter there.After the last press release. Actually
no, I'm sorry, it wasbefore the last press release. Dale had
developed these sources in town. Well, one of them came to him and
(07:46):
said, hey, Gary's former neighborhas a bunch of camping gear that Gary
gave him, and these buckets ofspent shellcasings and even some live rounds.
Would that be of interest to you? Of course, Dale's like yeah,
So we sent a team from thecase breakers up to grosven to collect those
(08:07):
items as forensically competent as possible,maybe is the way to put it.
So I told the team, youneed to pretend you are badged armed law
enforcement, adhering to the proper chainof custody, and so what they did
was take video during this entire exchange. They obviously logged each item on a
chain of custody sheet, put itinto the proper packaging with gloves on,
(08:30):
took video of the whole process,so there's proof. And then it got
mailed off to a woman named FrancineBardol in Utah who runs her own DNA
extraction lab. She used the mbackmethod and her own Bardol DNA extraction method
to get DNA profiles off this campinggear and many of the spent shellcasings.
(08:52):
She in turn sent those mback filtersand Bardol filters to another lab in California
because she doesn't actually develop a DNAprofile, she just extracts the DNA from
items. So she sent those filtersover to the lab in California and they
developed various DNA profiles. It cameback with three, so we were stuck
(09:13):
for a little while because we didn'tknow which of the three belonged to Gary
Post. We were pretty confident thatone of them had to be his because
these items that belonged to him,but we didn't know how. I mean,
we knew how, but we hadn'tdone it yet, but we had
to figure out a way to determinewhich of those three profiles belonged to Gary
Post. And this has been monthsand months in the making. So recently,
(09:37):
another case Breaker team member traveled toanother state in the US and I'll
leave it at that, and throughdevelopment of a confidential informant was able to
obtain some forensically valuable items from oneof Gary France's Post close relatives. We
in turn sent those items to thelab different lab and they developed a singular
(10:05):
DNA profile off three different items.When we compared the three profiles off those
items with Gary Francis Post, thereare so many a wheels in common that
we can say with pretty high confidencethat we now know which of our original
three profiles belongs to Gary. Andso what has gone on this week is
(10:26):
that DNA profile of Gary Post hasbeen presented to the Riverside Police Department because,
according to a History Channel special afew years back, they developed a
DNA profile off hairs that were foundat the Sherry Joe Bates murder scene,
and we have asked them to makea comparison between Gary's DNA and what they
have now at the time of thisrecording. Obviously we don't have an answer
(10:50):
because they haven't been approached yet,so I can't speak to what their response
is. Does that make sense?Yes? Actually that was a very good
breakdown because, like me and youwere talking before recording, the information that
we got a lot of it wasinformation that we had previously known. I
think it was like eighteen pages ofinformation and I think maybe two or three
(11:11):
of them were related to the actualDNA. And when I'm reading it,
it does not make a bit ofsense to me. So I was like,
I want to get Jen on andI mean I was going to do
an update anyway, because Tom hadgot a hold of me, and he's
like, hey, can you dothis and release it the same day as
the press release? And I'm like, yeah, that's no problem. But
I have no idea what I'm talkingabout. Man, I have no idea
(11:35):
what's And he's like, there willbe a whole chain of people to email
if you want some interviews. AndI'm sorry, Jen, I'm dragging you
into this because and you already workedtogether on other stuff. Yeah, and
it's it's way more casual of aconversation than somebody I don't know, and
I know you have that forensics background, so it makes it a lot easier.
(11:58):
It's pretty much been and I'm nottrying to take credit for all of
us or anything, but in termsof the forensic and this DNA quest,
it's pretty much been me and Francine, along with Tom and others on the
team you included who have had countlesszoom meetings brainstorming, but her and I
basically advising them what we think wasthe best path to try to get this
(12:20):
answer. I'm not just a talkinghead. Have been involved in the process
the whole way, and I havea very good understanding of what's gone on.
So yeah, I totally agree.And I remember when everything got sent
to Francine, and I know Tomwas extremely excited about that opportunity to get
the stuff, finally get the DNAactually extracted, and especially when we got
(12:43):
the shell casings and stuff that thatwas a very huge deal. Yeah,
and then of course we have theciphers as well. Yes, that is
always a huge thing when it comesto the Zodiac and you were telling me
before recording there's a cipher that wascracked or an annam and it leads to
another anagram that needs to be cracked. Can you kind of get a little
(13:07):
bit more run on that. Actually, you were right. It started as
a cipher because it came in codedform, and this is the three forty
cipher. Probably most people listening knowwhat that is. But again, just
google it and you can see theoriginal three forty cipher that was sent in
by the Zodiac killer. It's calledthree forty because there's three hundred forty characters,
but they're not all like American lettersor anything. Some of them are
(13:31):
just made up coded characters. Andso it took oh gosh, I don't
even know how many years, butdecades. I think it was late twenty
twenty one that some brilliant guys developeda computer program just for that cipher,
I believe, and it finally crackedit, and it revealed a message in
English from the Zodiac. But everybodywas kind of disappointed because it didn't really
(13:56):
say anything like, you know,this is who I am and blah blah
blah, but actually does Here's thething, and one hundred percent credit to
those guys. I am so gladthey cracked it. Here's the problem.
It's another anagram and it needs tobe decoded one more time and Dale,
and I mostly Dale because I justsuck at anagrams. But I've tried,
(14:16):
I've tried. I don't even test. Oh my gosh, it's it will
literally give you a headache. Buthe's brilliant at it, and he has
he had the methodology down because he'sbeen cracking the zodiac letters for years.
Anyways, he's part way through decodingthat anagram. But it's huge, right,
it's three hundred forty letters. Butwhat I will reveal, and I'm
(14:39):
not going to reveal all the sentencesthat he's figured out so far. But
as with all the other zodiac letters, Gary Francis post name is in the
last third, and there is asong title or lyric I forget in the
first third. I have it writtendown somewhere. But and that falls right
in mind with the m O ofall the other letters. All the anagrams
(15:01):
that Dale is decoded have Gary's namein the last third and then usually a
song title. From the fifties orsixties, there's been a couple movie quotes,
I think even a couple of theater. Gary Post really liked the theater,
so I think there's like a coupleof references to theater, and that's
always in the first third. Throughthe years, Dale had always been told
(15:24):
Sherry Joe Bates was not a Zodiacvictim. She definitely not. Then that's
Riverside still stands by that now.And so he never looked at the confession
letter that was sent in after SherryJoe Bates was murdered. He just put
it aside because he figured it wasirrelevant. Well, recently he said,
you know what, let me takea second look at this, and whn't
you know? So he found thatthere's clues in both the envelopes and the
(15:48):
actual letter contained within. And sohe's already cracked the whole envelope. I
will leave it to him to revealwhat it says. But he's in the
middle of working on the actual confessionletter. And again Gary's name is in
the last third, and there isa song title or lyric in the first
third, and he's also figured outa bunch of the other senses. And
so I suggested, I don't knowif this will be done, but I
(16:11):
suggested, just submit, even thoughit's unfinished at the moment, but submit
what he has so far decoded onthat confession letter with the DNA and just
explain to Riverside, like, notonly is here the DNA we want you
to compare, but here's kind ofsome evidence that falls in line with all
the other research and anagram decoding thatDale has done through the years. And
(16:36):
he's finally able to be public now. There was a situation where he couldn't
really come out and say much abouthis work. And I think that was
one of the advantages, I guess, of having Tom and the case Breakers,
because everybody else was able to takethat information and run with it when
he couldn't yes publicly do anything.And he is out now and the case
(17:00):
Breakers has a YouTube channel and Dale'sbeen on there. It's talking a lot
of stuff. I mean, likeI said, he's an amazing dude.
And when it comes down to it, let's say, when we get this
DNA and which we have, whatis the next step, Because I know
(17:22):
we have to give this to lawenforcement and have them actively test it against
evidence that was found at the scene. I believe some hair can we elaborate
on that at all, So theyactually don't even have to do any testing.
Literally, all they need to dois take our piece of paper that
has Gary's DNA profile on it.I'm not as good as explaining what each
(17:45):
line of an actual profile means.But we all have these alleles in our
DNA, and the paper with theprofile has a bunch of numbers and letters
and all this stuff, and it'sto me that's foreign. It looked but
anyway looks like gibberish. I'm noteven gonna light it does. I was,
like, it does, it doesn'teven look like I mean, I
(18:06):
can make one, yeah, so, but all I have to do is
take our print out and compare itto their print out from the hairs and
see how many leles are in common. And if there's you know, a
high number in common, you've gota pretty good suspect to look at for
the murder of Sherry Joe Bates.So there's not even any as far as
I understand, there's not even anylike in depth forensic testing that needs to
(18:30):
be done. We just need someonein the lab who's certified to look at
these two profiles and say yea ornay. And for some reason they've been
so resistant, I'm honestly curious asto why they keep saying that Bates is
not a victim of Zodiac. Idon't know, because back in the years
after her murder, the Riverside Policechief or not emailed. Sorry they do
(18:55):
this back then, but he eithercalled or and it's in writing. He
sent a letter also to SFPD saying, Hey, I've read about your series
of murders up there. I thinkmine might be part of that series or
committed by the same perpetrator. Sohe believed that in the very beginning,
and then through the years, differentpolice chiefs and people have changed that narrative.
(19:15):
But what we know is Gary FrancisPost was in the Riverside area at
the time of Sherry Joe Bates's murder. There's a watch that came off the
perpetrator. It broke and was leftat the scene. It is a military
watch that was only sold on Postfrom my understanding, and had paints batter
on it, which was Gary's profession. Again circumstantial, right, but still
(19:38):
it's something. And then there wasa size ten military bootprint at the scene
too that matched bootprints from other Zodiacscenes. So I'm a little confused as
to how they're just going to ignoreall that. And also Gary was receiving
medical treatment at I'm sorry, Ican't remember the name of the base,
but it's about a fifteen minute drivefrom the Sherry Joe Bates murder and so
(20:00):
again that solidifies that he was downin that area at the time of her
murder. With all this information given, and I can guarantee people cracked open
and read a bunch of articles,whether those articles are informative or not.
That's why I kind of wanted todo this, because we break down the
process. You know, every weall know how the media works. They're
(20:22):
gonna have a sensational headline and they'regonna give some some key talking points,
maybe three or four paragraphs, andthat's going to be it, and everybody's
either going to be like, Oh, they solved it, or oh they're
totally wrong because I got the rightguy and these you know, I'm gonna
have to ignore Twitter again like amonth or more than likely. Yeah,
(20:44):
I believe the lashing last time.I'm like, whoa. It was so
brutal. And it's so funny becauseevery time I posted something about it,
there's usually four or five people thatare just like, Nope, that's not
it, You're wrong. I alwaystry to put a little bit of teasers
because Tom is like, hey,you know, put a little teaser out.
(21:06):
He's like, don't say much.You can't say not because lawyers are
involved and shit like that. AndI'm like, no, that's fine,
Like I'll just put a little teaser, and of course that just brings I
don't know if people, I swearpeople go on social media and just type
in Zodiac killer like once or twicemy day, and then they're just like
(21:27):
scrolling through to see what's going on. And I mean, I have Google
alerts set up for certain things thatI follow as well. But and I
know that's gonna come the seventeenth,which we're recording this ahead of time,
but you guys are listening in realtime, posting this at twelve pm Eastern,
so news probably broke an hour twoago. And yeah, so it's
(21:51):
gonna be it's gonna be all over. But with that being said, what
can people look for in the future, What with the information that we provided,
with the information that is in thearticles and the media outlets right now,
what kind of stuff can they lookfor in the short term future.
(22:11):
Well, obviously, our ideal outcomewould be that Riverside would take our information
and do a comparison and give usa result. Whatever that result, maybe
I have a feeling it's going tobe another fight. They've been super resistant
to talk to us or do anythingwith us, which I don't really.
If you can clear our cold caseoff your books without doing any work on
(22:32):
it, and everybody volunteered their timeto do your work for you, what's
the problem that's like, what fiftysixty years old? It's from sixty six?
I think, yeah, I meancome on, so, I mean
that's our ideal hope. But likeI said, that probably won't happen.
So we're gonna have another like youknow, media battle or something. And
but what should happen hopefully later thisyear, is Dale's book gets published.
(22:55):
Yes, him and Tom Lawyers andwhat it's above my pay grade, But
they came to some agreement at thelast press release that they were going to
hold off publishing his book. Ithink also part of it is because it's
not complete, right, like untilwe know for sure if Gary Post is
a guy or not, Dale can'tactually finish the book, and he keeps
(23:15):
cracking anagram, so then he keepshaving to write more chapters, so it
is technically a work in progress.But when I talked to him last weekend.
He had plans to get it publishedin the near future, and I
really think once everybody reads it,you're gonna understand where we're coming from and
why we're so convinced as to hiswork being valid. And Dale didn't seek
(23:37):
out the Zodiac case. He knewnothing about it. Even though he was
like a news anchor in California.He'd heard of it, like me,
right, he didn't know the detailsof it. What happened was a homeless
guy came to his news station severalyears ago and sought Dale out, specifically
because he really liked his reporting,and Dale took a chance on him and
they had lunch and Dale obviously boughtbut the guy gave him Gary Francis post
(24:00):
name and explained to Dale why hethought that his stepfather was Zodiac. Now
I know there's a thousand other peopleout there who have thought their father,
grandfather, whoever, was Zodiac too, But Dale thought his story sound incredible
and he just kind of became interested, and so he did some digging on
his own, and he kept intouch with this guy and they kind of
(24:22):
worked together for a while, andit was literally on a whim when Dale
was home one day, his wifewas out somewhere. It was like a
weekend, I think, and hewas just kind of staring at I think
it was the Halloween letter, andhe's like, wait a minute, I
think there's more to this. Andso he what he did was typed up
all the letters that are included inthe Halloween letter, and then he increased
the font size to a big sizeand printed it out, and then he
(24:45):
cut up each individual letter out ofthe paper that he printed and so then
he had this group of letters andhe kind of like he decided to sort
of like shuffle him around right andthen start from scratch. And he was
giggling how to solve an anagram?And by the way, he gives great
credit to anagramsalver dot net has beena huge website that has been of great
(25:06):
help to him. And it tookhim a little while, but he realized
if he rearranged the letters, hehad a message that actually made sense and
I'm not going to give it away, but it'll be in his book.
And so he just started doing thisone letter at a time. And you
know, there's the Peek through thePines postcard, there's the three whole punch
card, and he just kind ofworked on him over time, one by
(25:27):
one and realized they're all anagrams thatGary Post name was included in. And
here's where we get so much criticism. So I strongly believe Dale is the
only person who realized how this casehad to be worked, which is backwards.
That's not usually how a work case. But he needed the name of
(25:49):
the perpetrator first in order to crackthese anagrams. And then going back to
the Halloween card, I think therevelation was like, well, all the
letters of Gary Francis Posts are inthere, let me take those away and
see what's left. And that's whenhe realized there's an alternate message. And
again he used that same methodology withall of these letters. So the peek
(26:10):
through the pines and the three wholepunch and the three forty anagram, and
you know, the first thing hedoes is he takes Gary Francis Post letters
out of it. That is thekey to the cipher. And you cannot
properly break a cipher anagram without thekey, and nobody ever had it,
and I think nobody ever even thoughtto look at these messages deeper, like
there might be something more to them. Oh absolutely, hopefully that helps too.
(26:34):
No, it definitely does. Andlike I told people, the last
time a lot of this news broker, it was in the media, and
it was I don't know, likea year, year and a half ago.
It was, you know, realbig. The thing that people don't
realize is I wish that they couldsee the information that we have, Like,
yeah, because I read through,you know, eighteen or twenty five
(26:57):
pages of the documentation that we havefor the team members, and it's annoying,
but I understand why. But theythey only report or give up like
maybe ten or fifteen, maybe twentypercent of the information, and it's yeah,
that's what drives me crazy. Andother people just think, oh,
(27:18):
well, this doesn't you know,this is total bullshit, blah blah blah.
It's like you guys don't even know, Like I don't even know,
man, Like I wish that wecould just like that eighteen pages we got
the other day. I wish thatfull eighteen pages could be published, just
the whole thing. But we bothknow that's not going to happen, and
(27:41):
that's not up to us. Absolutelyabsolutely, Yeah, it's a proprietary info,
you know, And it's it givesus a way better understanding. And
when people read these articles or youknow, see a headline, you know,
headline media outlets, you guys allknow how it is. They sensational
(28:02):
headline. It could be misleading,it could say this, And like you
had said earlier on, we neverclaim to solve it. That's not our
job. Our job is collecting theinformation and doing the research, and then
giving that information and research to theproper authorities so that they can close a
case, not us. But whenpeople saw that, they started accusing you.
(28:26):
You know, They're like, oh, you didn't solve shit. I'm
like, yeah, she never saidshe did. Nobody ever said that.
But Dale's work is so in depth. When he actually does release this book,
I think it will give people away better understanding of where he's coming
from. And I'm sure there's stillgoing to be those critics out there,
of course, who have the confirmationby us. And that's the big thing
(28:51):
with me, and that's how I'vealways gone into cases. A lot of
people ask me, oh, youknow when you research an unsolved case or
even work on one, and aswe know, I don't like having you
know, they're like, oh,did you listen to this podcast, I'm
like, no, I don't listento shit because I want to go in
with an open mind. I don'twant anything persuading me. And you had
(29:15):
mentioned something when we started working onJudy's case for safe Haven. You said,
we like to go in blind.We don't want all this information.
We want to look at it blindand see where we come from and then
kind of collect more information from thereand see if it jives with what we
got. And Dale just on awhim, happened to get this information and
(29:40):
it all started driving up. Andhopefully one day that book gets published,
people will totally understand where we're comingfrom. I sure hope so, because
there's been so much going on forlike the last two years with this and
me and you. Sometimes I'm notgonna lie whether it's him or not.
(30:00):
Just solve the damn case, youknow, I careless. It's like I've
never been a huge Zodiac guy.I've done it at all. Like there's
so many like me, and youalways say, there's what two hundred and
sixty thousand plus unsolved cases out there, Okay, we need to concentrate on
some of that the famous ones Iget. I understand where we're coming from.
(30:23):
But like me and you always talk, we're like, just end it,
just solve it, and just getit done, you know. And
the frustrating part I think that wecan both agree on is that when we
do provide law enforcement agencies with informationor a DNA profile for that matter,
like, dude, just run it. You know what is the problem.
(30:44):
Just fucking run it. Yeah,it's frustrating, But what's dumb is to
use one word. Gary Francis Postwas arrested in twenty sixteen. I believe
it's for frusaulting his wife. I'mpushing her down the stairs. Guess what
At that time in California, ifyou're arrested for a felony, you have
to give up your DNA and thenguess what's supposed to happen with it.
It's supposed to be put in codus. Guess what never happened yep. And
(31:10):
so again because of this, it'snot even oversight. I mean, it's
just egregious on behalf of law enforcement. And then they destroyed his DNA.
So now again, for the lasttwo years, we've had to spend our
own money to try to develop hisDNA profile. So I hope those people
feel happy about that. Yeah,I'm glad that hopefully when this news breaks
(31:33):
and the information that we provide themedia outlets, I'm glad that we're actually
calling people out this time. Youhave to. You still have Zodiac victims
family members alive that's like twenty plus, like siblings and what like. They
still deserve justice, you know,and they, I'm sure just get absolutely
(31:53):
tormented year after year because zodiacson isstill in the media all the time and
all these people you know, comingout of the woodwork thinking they solved it
and all this stuff, like theyhave to, They've had to relive it
their whole lives. Not is terrible. I mean, they deserve a little
resolution, and so for law enforcementto fall short because of their pride is
(32:13):
what I think. Yeah, that'sinexcusable to these victims families that was your
person that got murdered, you wouldn'tact that way going on that. One
of the comments when I gave alittle teaser on social media was that somebody
made a comment I can't remember who, It doesn't matter who it was,
but somebody is like, well,I mean this guy would be like ninety
(32:34):
or one hundred years old by now, blah blah blah, And I'm like,
that's not even why is that evena fucking thing? That doesn't even
matter, Like, I don't givea shit. Yeah, you could be
fucking hundred and fifty. I don'tcare. Did the victims still have living
relatives? You deserve that closure,and they deserve to know that certain agencies
have been sitting on this information orrefusing to work with people who are literally
(32:58):
willing to pay for it all anddo it all for them, and then
you know what will happen. Jen, We were actually talking about it the
other day on the phone. It'slike, we're somebody's gonna end up doing
all the work and then some lawenforcement agencies going to have this press conference.
We finally solved the yeah, andit's like, yeah, yeah,
(33:20):
No, you didn't know. Youfucking didn't. I honestly don't even care.
It doesn't matter who gets the credit, which which is fine, It
doesn't It doesn't matter. And lookingat the situation that we have with our
other cases that we work on withAMUM, with Judy's case in Lenda's case,
we have a unique advantage of actuallyworking with law enforcement and the prosecutor's
(33:45):
office and different agencies and stuff areinvolved. And the one thing about the
Prosecutor's office in Wood County with Judy'scase is Doug brought up such a great
point. And I don't know whyI had, just it hit me hard
because he goes, we don't havetime. He goes, you guys got
(34:05):
to understand. You guys have puthundreds of hours into this. You guys
put in probably a week or twobefore you even decided to take the case.
Yeah. Yeah, And he's sittingthere and he said, the thing
about us is, you know,we have maybe a week and then there's
another case that comes in, Yeah, and we have to start on that
one. And he goes, wedon't have the manpower. We don't have
(34:28):
these or they do have the resources, but they don't have the manpower.
He goes, we have to keepup with the current cases. And he
goes, we only have so manypeople in so many hours in a day,
and he goes, you guys area team who are dedicated to one
cold case. And I think thatspoke volumes because they are extremely humble and
(34:50):
I don't want to say thankful,but they kind of are because they're like,
yeah, we'll give you guys morecasepiles if you know, if you
guys want to look at other stuffor whatever. Yeah, But the fact
that there are certain agencies that stillhave the pride getting involved, or if
that Prosecuting Attorney's office doesn't want thePD to get involved, which is also
(35:16):
another thing as well. That's itjust blows my mind. It's like,
why would you not take outside help? Like I don't under I just I'll
never understand that me either. I'lltell a short anecdote that I've never told
because it's just happened last weekend.But in the case that me and George
are focusing on now, which isLinda Malcolm from Port Orchard, Washington,
(35:38):
killed in two thousand and eight lastweekend on a weekend day, I know
the detective is not at work onthe weekend. I got this message late
Saturday night, and obviously I can'treveal anything about the message, but suffices
to say it was interesting enough thatif forward it to her right away.
And I actually texted her Saturday nightand I said, I am so sorry
(36:01):
for bothering you this late at nighton your off day, but if you
have time, this spegning, canyou please check your work amount? And
she goes, I'm reading it rightnow, and I was like, damn,
it's ten thirty her time on theWest Coast on like a weekend,
and I was just like, Ilove her. This is this is amazing,
you know, absolutely, And sowhy can't we have better working relationships
(36:23):
like that with these departments? Andobviously you me, George, Melissa Allen,
all of us on our team ortrying to slowly, one by one
change that. But I think theseagencies and regards to Zodiac could take a
step back maybe and look at ourbackgrounds and what else we've done. I'm
also gonna tell one other small anecdote, and I'm not going to name the
(36:45):
guy because I can't stand him andI don't want to give him any more
attention. But he knows who heis. Who was completely trolling my Twitter
page after the last press release actuallytold me I just ruined my career.
I just want to tell you Inow work from my local sheriff's department as
a criminal investigator on cold cases.So somehow I managed to not ruin my
(37:06):
career with that last press release.I know, well, I don't know
jin maybe this one will ruin it. It's hard to tell. Yeah,
I know, it's so funny,dude. Oh, my superiors don't even
know about case breakers, but theyknow about the AMU team and they're fascinated
by it. Oh for real,Like had discussions about do we have cases
(37:30):
in our department that your team wouldbe appropriate for? And we're not at
that point yet because you know,you know, Melissa are Judy's and me
and me and Georgia in the middleof windows but down the road maybe.
And and right when me and Melissastart I don't want to say winding down,
we get this phone conversation. Itjust full throttled right back up again.
(37:52):
It's like, oh shit. Andthen we're like, we need to
go back to West Virginia. Iknow, I know, word o.
Thank yeah man, I wish Icould be there. And the coolest part
is we picked up Alan. Andfor those listeners who don't know, this
is like one of the coolest thingsabout AMU is there's so many different facets
(38:15):
of people who bring in information thatwe interview and talk to, and it's
all a friend of a friend ofa friend. But everybody is just once
they start looking at something. It'sthe information it's and it's the knowledge.
And with Alan, I am soglad that he is on board with us,
because that dude is insanely awesome andhe's a arson investigator, he's a
(38:40):
fire instructor, he's been doing thisfor thirty thirty five years and his knowledge
on this kind of shit is invaluable. And even Doug was like, wow,
man, like I never knew,Like you can look at burn marks
and tell like all this information fromit. That's the advantage of doing things
(39:00):
like this, And I just Iwish more more agencies were were open to
it. I guess yeah. It'sbasically crowdsource saying were you just absolutely bring
you know, build as big ofa source network as possible. Number one,
particularly in the area where the victimsfrom. But number two, find
people with those expertise that can help, because like you and I aren't are
(39:22):
some experts. I don't know shitabout man Parson. To be honest,
I've learned a lot from Alan becauseof these two cases. I didn't know
a thing about it before. LikeI'm really good at homicide investigation, but
I know what spoling is now withhis little blue and red circles and he's
like, put into all this shit, and I'm like, I don't know
what you're talking about, dude,but I'm ready to learn. And that's
(39:45):
the best part though, is likewe all soak in this knowledge from other
people. Like when we were talkingabout metal, I'm like, dude,
I worked under under a metall er, just like this is my family trade
is literally metal. So me andAlan went back and forth and we're talking
about all this stuff, and Melissaof course pops in and she's like,
I just I just can't even believethis right now. And it's like that's
(40:08):
the best part about it, islike we all have these different things.
I don't know it works. Andthen the crowdsourcing. You know, you
get a thousand people from a smalltown where somebody got killed, people talk,
and you start getting all this informationand everything. And that's what I
think more agencies need to look at, or even prosecutors' offices need to look
(40:30):
at, is saying hey, youknow, maybe they're onto something. And
I think more of them are gettingit because there are other universities who were
starting to do what we're doing.I mean when me and George were in
Port Orchard two weeks ago because itwas the fifteen year anniversary of Linda's murder,
and you know, we had abunch of investigative things to do,
(40:51):
but the first thing we did wasmeet with police. And by the way,
when we walked in the room,this is like my favorite story of
the weekend. We walk in thisconference room thinking it's just going to be
the detective Inner sergeant like last time, and there's this huge conference table with
eight people around it and two emptychairs for me and George. I'm like,
oh, I wonder who all thesepeople are? You know, it
(41:12):
turns out it's the FBI, theAttorney General's office at the state level,
the district attorney, the police chief, the Detective Inner sergeant. And I
was just like with glee in myheart, was like, this is the
dream, Like, this is whatwe work towards, you know, is
building the right team for this person'scase. And the fact that all of
those people took us seriously enough totake time out of their friday, to
(41:36):
me, especially the FBI, Iwas just and that guy was so interesting
to talk to afterwards, but Iwas I was just blown away because you
know, obviously the FBI doesn't justshow up that kind of a meeting for
no reason. And then it wasconfirmed that they are. Now they have
assigned an agent to help with Linda'scase. So and none of that was
happening a year ago. That wasjust a great experience. And I forgot
(42:00):
where I was going with this story. But agencies working with civilians, basically,
that's what it's very It's yeah,it's very advantageous. I don't understand
why more don't do it. AndI can get that it's a pride thing.
I get that, But there's alsopeople with certain specialties that could help
out with shit. Oh and Iknow where I was going with that is
that the detective brought up there's acouple of people who have refused to talk
(42:22):
to law enforcement about Linda's case,but they have reached out to me and
George. Not me and George seekingthem out, but they've reached out to
us feeling comfortable enough to talk withus, and so we've been able to
relay important information from those people tolaw enforcement. But the detective said,
(42:42):
without these two, we would haveno contact with these particular people. And
so that's another thing. And youand you and Melissa have totally experienced O's
case. Like, there's a lotof people in Parkersburg who don't want to
talk to a lot enforce. Hellyeah, that's a small town in West
Virginia. Man, they do notlike cops. And nope, we get
(43:02):
messages and everything like that, andemails and everything. And it's you know,
when me and you showed up atso and so's door when we are
in West Virginia last time, likeif we're cops, that dude hanging ash.
But it's like when people look atme, they're like, oh,
(43:22):
this guy ain't a cop. Iknow that. Yeah, we're normal people
like them exactly. And like we'rein a bar full of people. We're
drinking beers and just hanging out andit's just normal discussion and they're like,
yeah, I did hear something aboutthat. You know, maybe you should
talk to this person. And thenyou get a phone number and then it
just goes from there. That's thething that cops can't do because you know,
(43:45):
even if you're non uniform, youcan usually fucking tell. I think
most of the time they have toidentify themselves as long for us. But
I know when they knock on someone'sstore, they have to for sure.
Absolutely. I don't know if they'relike technically off duty in a bar if
they have to, but I knowthere's definitely some legal limits. Yeah,
(44:07):
definitely how they identify themselves or don'tidentify themselves. Absolutely. All right,
Well, that was a nice tangentthere for sure, Thanks everybody for it,
but hopefully it was enjoyable. Yeah, And that's that's basically the long
story of the point we're trying tomake is we are going to give all
(44:29):
this information from the case breakers thathas been collected, and we're going to
give it to law enforcement, andhopefully they do the right thing and either
give us answers. We don't careif it's yes or no. We don't
care if it is or it isn't. We don't care. Just test it.
Just if if it's not him,cool, exclude him, you know
(44:49):
exactly the way that narrows it down. It's a win win situation. So
I don't know. I guess itwould be. It would be disappointing in
some ways, but it'd be reallyto be I think, But I wouldn't
be totally disappointed. DALE would be. But like, even if they got
up there and they said Okay,we took this group's information, we compared
it to ours. It absolutely doesn'tmatch, and they have to provide proof
(45:12):
that it doesn't match. I'm notjust going to take their word for it.
Yeah. Absolutely, And we caneliminate Gary Francis Post as a killer
of Sherry Joe Bates. Fine,let's do it, because then people who
want to continue digging on that case, it's like, Okay, that's a
that's a question that's answered and wecan look elsewhere. So and one of
the things I could see happening toois they were being like, all right,
(45:32):
Gary Francis Post more than likely killedSherry Joe Bates, but that's not
related to the Zodiac murders, youknow, or something something along those lines.
I can see that'd be an interestingYeah. I think if they can
link them to Sherry, she's goingto have to fall up under the Zodiac
cases. But we'll we'll see whathappens. That's just my thinking. So,
(45:53):
but yeah, I hope this helpedclarify a few things that came out
in the press release. And likeyou said, justin there's a whole lot
more going on. You know,there's supposed to be a hike and a
dig for guns and stuff this summer. And I know we've talked about it
a little bit in the past,but there are some more investigative actions that
are in the works and being planned. So this isn't like the end y
(46:14):
any means. But I will puta quick plug for me and George.
Of course. This Sunday, whichis what the twenty second of May,
George and I will be in Jonesboro, Arkansas. We will be speaking at
an events center called Unwind. It'sreally cool. You get it's a fifty
dollars ticket, but you get drinks, you get you get interaction with other
(46:35):
people, you get snacks or darves, and you get one of our either
the book me and George wrote orone of George's books obviously signed, and
you can just come and hang outwith us, interact and a good portion
of our presentation is going to coverDale's work on the Zodiac case, since
the press release will be out andwe can talk more about it. Yes,
(46:57):
So if you happen to be nearthat area and you have time Sunday
evening, come check us out.And this is a true crime event.
Yeah, okay, I think theynormally call it cocktails and culprits. But
I think because George has done acouple of these on his own, because
obviously we live a long ways awayfrom each other and I couldn't be there
for this one. They may havechanged the title slightly, but that's the
(47:17):
overall theme and it's very it's aprivate event center. It only holds about
forty five to fifty people. LikeI said, it's very interactive. You
know, we definitely welcome in puttingquestions from the audience. We'll hang out
afterwards, you know, We'll havea drink with you and talk about whatever
cases you want to talk about.So we're able to make it. We'd
love to see you. For thoseinterested, George is a foremost expert on
(47:39):
the West Memphis three, So youcan go talk to Jen about Zodiac,
jump over to George talk about theWest Memphis three, and yeah, lots
lots of interaction and you can,like I said, have a couple of
beers and just bludge in gen withquestions. Yeah, I don't mind.
And for those who are interested inour crowdsourcing techno, you can like active
(48:00):
current investigation. I know, justinyouth, I'm sure have pitched your safe
Haven oge and but also you canjoin me and George's the Unsolved Murder of
Linda Malcolm and her last name ism ALcom. It's spelled a little differently,
but just look us up on Facebook. Join and check out our page.
There's a ton of information on there, and of course we welcome any
(48:22):
ideas, analysis, brainstorming, questions, whatever. Absolutely, and if you
want to get caught up on thecase before you join the group, listen
to Break the Case. Oh yeah, that's right. It is available wherever
you listen to podcasts. It certainlyis. Break the Case Season three is
on the Linda Malcolm Murder and ourwork on it. So all right,
Jen, Well, thank you somuch for taking the time out of a
(48:44):
Saturday night. Absolutely appreciated. It'salways a pleasure. I always have fun
to chatting with you. They alwayshave fun, Not like I don't talk
to you almost every day anyway,but I know exactly. I appreciate you
you're having me and thanks to everybodywho's listening and following our work. So
there's a lot more to come.All right, now, we'll see you
(49:06):
folks on the flip side. Thenbye Jin, take care, Bye MHM.
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