2 - Knights of the Old Republic 2

We continue our KOTOR mini-series with Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords. You can find our conversation on the first KOTOR in episode 93 of the main Mythic Mind podcast

Become a Mythic Mind patron and/or enroll in a course here: patreon.com/mythicmind

Leave a one-time tip here: https://buymeacoffee.com/andrewnsnyder

Find Josh's Substack here: https://substack.com/@jgtraylor

Listen to Ian's podcast, "Reader Two, Standing By" here: https://open.spotify.com/show/3V9raDO07MCxeBlEzXiA54

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Alone. Welcome to the Mythic Mind Games podcast, where we
pursue wisdom on the path between primary and secondary worlds.
I'm doctor Andrew Snyder, and I'm glad that you're here.
Hey there, and welcome to the second episode of Mythic
Mind Games, where we are discussing video games from a

(00:26):
general humanities perspective. And as I mentioned in the last episode,
this is part of the Mythic Mind Fellowship, which is
a wide reaching association of Christians of various stripes who
are generally interested in the humanities. I mean, some of
us our scholars, some of us are writers, some of
us are just people who like to read and to
talk about things like this, talk about stories, talk about

(00:50):
what matters. And today we are going to be continuing
our conversation on Knights of the Old Republic. And I
say we're continuing this conversation because today we're talking about
the second Kotor game. Our chat on the first kodet
Or game is back on the main Mythic Mind podcast,
which is the launching point over here. So if you
haven't listened to that, then go check out the Mythic
Mind podcast and look for our episode on Nights of

(01:13):
the Old Republic, but as mentioned today, we're going to
be talking about the second Nights of the Old Republic,
the Sith Lords. This is a great game. I've had
a lot of replay value. I've returned to it again
and again over the years, and if you've never played it,
and then I hope this conversation will encourage you to
pick it up, because well, I think that both of

(01:33):
these games are really significant. They both deal with some
important storytelling elements, some of the most important I think
that have come out of the whole Star Wars franchise.
But this game in particular, I think does some very
important things philosophically, and we'll get into that in this conversation.
And before we get started, I just want to let
you know that everything that we do here is Patroon funded,

(01:54):
and so if you enjoy this conversation, if you enjoy
the things that we're doing with Mythic Mind, then I
very much to welcome your support over on Patreon at
patreon dot com slash Mythic Mind. Whether you're able to
throw five dollars a month my way, or you're able
to do a little bit more than that, it's all
appreciated and if you want to do a one time tip,
then you can use the buy me a Coffee platform,
which you can find a link to in the show

(02:15):
notes along with that Patreon link. All right, but now
let's go ahead and get into our main conversation. All right,
welcome back, well, actually now welcome to the Mythic Mind
Games podcast, which is freshly going here. Today we're going
to continue our discussion of Kodetor, moving on to code
Tor two, the Sith Lords, and so kay the same

(02:39):
formats last time. We'll see where the conversation goes. Talk
a little bit about kind of our experience with this game,
you know, why, why it stands out to us, and yeah,
we'll just kind of take it from there. This is
I've definitely played this one more than I have the
first one. I think it has more replay value to it.
I mean there's more more to is a make, I

(03:00):
mean more, I think, variety of potential engagement with companions.
I think it's general it makes for a better replay.
Although unfortunately it is a little bit unfinished and how
it came out you got kind of rushed through development
a little bit unfinished, although there are some potential fixes
for that I if you're playing on the PC, and

(03:21):
what I appreach about this game is in addition to
some new gameplay albums and just make it more fun,
more more engaging, is that I think it is. It's
more of an explicitly philosophical story as I'm sure we're
going to get into, and you know, with our main
antagonist of the story, with Crea really being this kind
of Nietzschean sortry in sort of like nihilistic, let's just

(03:44):
tear everything down and rebuild it out of our sheer,
independent free will, which you can tell us an older
game in that she's not the hero with that philosophy.
So one of the things that I appreciate about this game.
But you know, I could go off on that for
for a little while on my rants against neihilistic existentialism,
but we'll hear from some other people first, Josh, tell

(04:07):
us something about just wherever you want to kick us off.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yeah. Man, it's hard to give any sort of introduction
to this game, because, as you've already stated, there's so
much to it. And I do agree, first of all
with your perspective that the replayability factor is much more
there for Kotor two than it is for one though,
I do think they're both. They both meyrit many many

(04:34):
replays this one there is there are many more choices
that you can make, and I think you did touch
on this, and I think one of the biggest contributing
factors for that is the relationships that you can build
with your party members and the way you the way
you can influence them, specifically as playing through the Exile

(04:56):
or Metrosurik however we want to go about type like
our protagonist hear he is shaking his head for some reason.
We'll maybe we'll get to that in a second, but
that's really one of the I think one of the
biggest changes in one of the biggest improvements from Kotor
one is the relationship you have with your party members,

(05:19):
especially to just like I mean, first of all, this
is the depth of characters overall. I mean, like I
like Karth a lot, Right, he's like a great. It's
kind of like a great, just like a virtuous, like
paragon type of figure. Not not perfect, right, he's flawed,
but he really like he really is kind of like
an exemblar of a lot of this like heroic mass

(05:41):
heal and virtues in a lot of ways, and there's
a sense where, like you can say the same with
with Aten, but there's a sense where you know the
character Aten this is kind of like the Handy Blast
or a character is he's kind of more of like
a Han solo type in a way. But then once
you like talk to him more and more throughout the
game and you really peel back the layers to him,

(06:01):
I actually think he's one of the most profound characters
in either of the games, and especially if you get
to like that part where you basically convince him and
influence him enough to become a Jedi, and the dialogue
about him and his backstory, and just the fact that
he's not just this scoundrel, swashbuckling rogue type of character.

(06:23):
He is that, but he's so much more than that.
And I think he's just one example of many of
just the depths of the party members amongst others, especially
even some of the dialog Unlock with like the Handmaiden
or Vassis mar Visus mar I'm not exactly sure I've pronounced,
but in Krea, of course, as we could spend probably
two or three episodes just talking about Korea in the

(06:45):
depth there, but just I think the characters are one
of many dimensions to this game that makes it, in
my opinion, one of the most well written games I've
ever played. At least.

Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah, I definitely agree that there's more to the characters,
and definitely more to the engagement with the characters. I
like the influenced system, although I wish it went further
where you actually impact their personality. I mean, you know,
you can go full dark side full dark light side
and bring them along with you, and then there's no
essential change to their character other than you know, the

(07:19):
force powers they can use the best. So I wish
on a more immersive level they had pulled that out
some But at the same time, I appreciate what they did.
I appreciate the development from the first game in what
they're doing with that, and it is I mean, it
is kind of fun how you can induct them into
your Jedi or Sith ways, and it just it adds

(07:41):
to a new dynamic. Right, Ian tell us something about
about this game.

Speaker 3 (07:45):
So I was shaking my head because I reject the
name Metris Hirk. I think it's it sounds like it
was developed in the name Generator and has no connection
to the character And the really interesting thing is, even
though in both Kotoor one and Kotoar two, the character
that you play is kind of a blank slate, the

(08:09):
Jedi Exile is what I call that main character has
so much more personality because the choices that your character
has to have made to get to where you are
are so individual. I mean, she well, so I generally
think of her as she, even though I played her
as both male and female. But the Jedi Exile went

(08:33):
against the Jedi Council and Reven, which means that, like
there's a very specific type of rebellion and moral code
that she has to have had to do those things.
The Jedi Exile also draws people to her in a

(08:53):
way that Reven doesn't really. I mean, Reven just kind
of happens a bunch of a bunch of people, whereas
the jedixle kind of people just kind of really want
to follow that character. And so there's a charisma that
I would say Reven doesn't really have necessarily. I mean,
you can play Reven as if he has charisma, but
the Jedi Exile has to because of what the story

(09:17):
she's involved in does. So I think that there's a
lot more necessary defined personality that you can play as
both light or dark, but she still has a defined
code and a defined rebellion to her that's required. I also,
again like with those companions, like I personally really love Mira,

(09:39):
like this bounty hunter character who was kidnapped by Mandalorians,
and she also you can convert her to a Jedi
as well, and that scene when you do it on Darshada,
the Hot Moon has real emotional depth, Like the writing
and the voice acting really hits me when I'm able
to get that. So even with the quote unquote broken ending,

(10:05):
I think that there's so much emotional weight of the
characters and the character you're playing and the journey you.

Speaker 2 (10:13):
All go on that.

Speaker 3 (10:17):
It sticks with you longer. I mean, even apart from
all the gameplay stuff that I completely agree with. I mean,
you can blasters are no longer completely useless, You can
have so many different weapons, You can make your own weapons,
so it feels like you actually have all these different
skills and stuff. But those characters and the influence system
and the way everything gets to a darker place I

(10:41):
think really make Kotor two really the standout of the
two or three. I mean, I also include the Old Republic.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yeah, and I will say for anybody who hasn't played
the game, who isn't super familiar with it, that if
we can get a little inconsistent with the Hishi stuff,
we're not positive a philosophy of gender here. This is
you know, canonically it's supposed to be a female, but
obviously when you're playing the game, you can pick either option.
So just in case there's any confusion, was to what's
going on there? All right, David?

Speaker 4 (11:15):
Yeah, I'm here to represent the people that aren't as
familiar with it. I mean, just because of so much
time has passed. Same with the last game. I do
remember the story. It's one of the bleakest stories Star
Wars stories that I can recall, and I, I don't know,

(11:37):
there's really interesting Sith characters, and I had to like
look online to try and remind myself of some of
what was going on. And there's so many just huge
video essays that people have written and made YouTube videos about.

Speaker 3 (11:53):
You know.

Speaker 4 (11:53):
I saw one that said why this is the best
story in video games? And then I saw that it
was eight hours long and didn't even click on it.
But yeah, so I know there's a lot of depth
to plumb in this, and I don't know. Hopefully I'll
I'll have some more questions and comments as we get
into it.

Speaker 1 (12:12):
I feel like I need to watch this eight hour
video essay now, maybe on triple speed get the gist
of it. Interesting. Yeah, So, I mean, I guess it
might be helpful to just kind of frame what the
story is. And I was hoping I would get to
replay it before this conversation, but I just haven't had
too much other stuff going on. And so I mean,

(12:36):
joshure you know, I mean, do you want to just frame, like,
what is the plot of this game?

Speaker 3 (12:43):
Well? It's fascinating because it starts off as kind of
a horror story when you're trapped in a mining colony,
surrounded by droids that want to kill you in dead bodies,
and you have very little memory, as most of these
games are. And as the story develops, you meet an
old Jedi woman who starts telling you all these creepy,

(13:07):
sort of as you say, Nietzschean things, and you discover
that there's actually a syth plot to kill all the
Jedi and take over the galaxy, and they've gotten really
far in the rim where you are so instead of
being kind of in the central world like the first game,
this is on the rim. You've got all these hut
planets and smuggler moons that you have to go to,

(13:30):
and on every world you find self hidden assassins that
are trying to kill you, and you slowly develop the
picture of why they're trying to kill you, who's leading them,
And you discover a syth triumvirate, a world eating monster,
a scarred zombie, and a mysterious hooded figure who keeps

(13:52):
popping up. And as the game progresses, of course, you
find out more about the origins of each of these
three characters, what your relationship to them is, and your
relationship to Reven and the civil war ten years ago.
And so you just keep diving into these layers and
finding hidden Jedi on each planet, and it all builds

(14:14):
up to a big confrontation at the Sith Academy.

Speaker 1 (14:19):
It's a pretty good overview. Now, Okay, remind me of
exactly the backstory. So I know the exile was cut
off from the Force or cut themselves off from the
Force or something. What's the specifics of the starting place
of the protagonists to the Force?

Speaker 3 (14:43):
Well, I think this is perhaps a little bit debatable,
I think, but you discover in your exploration of your
character's history that you were, in general for Reven. You
were one of Reven's top military commanders. One of the
final battles, you triggered a super weapon that destroyed an

(15:05):
entire planet full of Mandalorians. And the catastrophe of that choice,
because you're the ones who made that choice, either you
or that trauma itself stripped the force from you, and

(15:25):
you slowly are getting it back as you as you go.

Speaker 1 (15:31):
Right right. And I recall that if you, especially if
you take the dark path and you basically go off
and kill all the Jedi, then you are you're blaming
them for like cutting you off from the force. So
that's at least part of the driving element. And so
it is interesting that if you take the light side approach,
it's more of a story of coming to terms with

(15:52):
your own sin and sort of integrating that, recognizing owning that,
like I did that and in so doing, I cut
myself off from like the reality of life. I entered
the shadow. I entered the darkness willingly. And so there
is that idea of coming to terms with your shadow
sort of reconciling it and moving forward to repentance, which
is exactly what you would want from a light Side story,

(16:13):
whereas the Dark Path is a lot more just built
around resentment and externalizing your problems rather than actually dealing
with them, which is we're kind of ironic because CREA's
whole spiel is about like your radical independence. At the
same time, it's a radical independence that actually shirks personal responsibility.

(16:36):
And so that there's a lot of I think, just
very strong, very good philosophy that that's playing out here
in portraying the just the illusory nature of the dark
side justification compared to the reality of coming to terms
with what is on the light side. And that's one
of the things that I think just makes this in

(16:57):
a moral sense, in a philosophical sense, a good story,
not just compelling, but it's actually promoting something good with
a kind of message that you rarely see from modern games.
You rarely see for modern Star Wars in such explicit terms.
And so, yeah, that's that's powerful. Josh, how you unmuted
for a second.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
Yeah, I can remember exactly what I was going to
comment on, and that's gonna probably be a recurring thing.
Because there's so much to comment on, but you mentioned
some of like the Light Side and Dark Side path differences,
and for anyone that hasn't played this game, especially on
the Light Side Path, you you encounter the different basically

(17:38):
the Jedi Council members, like the Jedi Masters who really
judged and condemned you are to not really draw a
out of attention via just their combined kind of like oneness,
I guess, or power in the force. They've all scattered
to like kind of these more remote like outer rim planets.

Speaker 5 (18:01):
Right.

Speaker 2 (18:01):
But and like a big part of the game is
whereas like in Kotor one you kind of have like
the star like collecting the Starmat pieces, they're kind of like,
in a sense, like a maguffin that like you you
get these these fragments that move the plot along. Well,
in this you're really like you're almost like instead of
collecting Starmap fragments, you're collecting Jedi Council members, whether you

(18:23):
meet them up and you know, basically challenge them to
a duel and kill them on the Dark Side Path
or bring them back on the Light Side Path, or
do some weird mixture of both, because you technically you
hypothetically could like I'm gonna kill two of them and
save two of them. For some reason, you really wanted
to go that route again. A lot of decisions to
make in this game. But the way, like there's this

(18:45):
really culminating scene in the Light Side Path where you
do bring the Council members back and they almost basically
have this approach where it's like, yeah, you're still too
powerful and too dangerous, so we're just gonna do the
same thing and condemn you again anyway, And then that
scene where Kraa comes in and she she just like
kills all of them on the spot, like on Dan

(19:06):
Tween and the old Jedi on Clay from the first game,
and it really just shows that even on the like
even on the light Side Path, they die, even on
the Light Side Path they get criticized, and so there's
it's not just like CREA's philosophy. It's not just that
the Sith are are bad, but it's that it's criticizing

(19:28):
really in a lot of ways, this monastic just like
complete like detachment of everything that the Jedi and like
Joe even criticizes in the first game right where he
talks about like, you know, while of not leading to
the dark side, and basically that it's having passions that

(19:51):
are unchecked and unrestrained maybe in a sense by reason,
unchecked and uncontrolled by reason, that lead people to the
dark side. And we get debate whether that is, whether
Joe Lee's correct in that or not, but either way,
he has a point in being critical of this whole,
like this whole like Jedi code basically, and that like

(20:11):
the Jedi code is almost like the law in a sense,
it's this thing that can't be challenged. And you see
that even after like the Jedi have gone through the
Jib Council members and Masters have gone through all these
things that they're kind of still really reluctant and unwilling
to change, you might get like hints of that. Right,
Like I think if like Masters, as Kyle, he's the

(20:34):
he's the guy with the cool like thick mutton chop
mustache that you you see you meet at the end
of nur Shada, and he he says, for the acts
we do to preserve the galaxy from such an arrogance,
that all we do right and just I wonder if
there is a counter effect that is created that strikes
back at us so he's almost like willing in some
sense to acknowledge that their entire philosophy and way of

(20:59):
living that out potentially be causing problems too. But then
at the end of the game, they kind of just
basically do the same thing and are really unwilling to
change and accept or be open to new ideas. And
this is in part, not entirely, but in part like
why Krea is also critical of them two from herself

(21:19):
being a former Jedi historian actually and way in the
past in her life story.

Speaker 4 (21:28):
Yeah, and you can't I can't really trust Crea in
what she says through the game, right, like she's she's
sort of narrating it a bit because you're, you know,
your character is you. But the reasons why she says
you should or shouldn't do things, I think often eventually
you realize, oh, that was just to serve her her
own ends, because if I did that, she saw that

(21:49):
as a choice that would not help her achieve her goal.
I feel like, But I I also remember that a
lot of the story just seemed to be about kind
of the fallout and the consequences to ordinary people in
the galaxy from this conflict with the Jedi and doesn't acten.

(22:10):
He just hates Jedi and Sith right, Like when initially
I feel like he had a speech about how Jedi
are terrible because they're always falling and everybody just knows
this as a Jedi war because it's all the same
to us. It's just this religious conflict that is just
having fallout and causing havoc. Like they've been at war

(22:32):
for like there have been lots of wars for like
the past fifty years, and everything's just in the shambles
at this point, right, So yeah, I thought that that aspect.
I love Star Wars when it's able to get into
deeper less just a hero's journey kind of a story
and we can see the impact that it has on
the universe around them. So that's one of the things

(22:55):
I really liked.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
But enough to disciple character when you talk to him,
I believe it's when you talk to him on Dan
Tweed and like the archives, he actually comments on that
same thing that basically just like ordinary like to ordinary people,
the Jedi in the Sith are both just Jedi with
different philosophies, right, It's like basically what he's saying here,
and he's he's giving you. He's like a scholarly guy, right,

(23:19):
so he's not like you can really call him like
a commoner, but he's definitely like giving you like more
of like a perspective of somebody who isn't really wrapped
up in like the Jedi way or the like the
way of the Sith in a sense, I think you
did hit the nail on the head there where there
is like this theme in there. It's like the effects
of war, the aftermath of war, and how that affects
common people, not just the people in high positions of

(23:42):
power or the people who are powerful in the sense
of possessing the force. And I mean, I think that's
an interesting theme that you see point out here. I'm
gonna give a very very very quick plug to the
like the original like couple like Gundam anime series from
like this the eighties where it's really like a theme
throughout this. So no, it's not just people in Giant

(24:04):
and Mex fighting each other, but like the effects the
devastating effects of like galactic warfare is like a massive
theme that's well done in like the early Gundom series
as well. So I'm just gonna throw that out there
I will talk about it anymore.

Speaker 4 (24:17):
No, I'm with you on that though. I think the
creator of Gundam didn't even really want to make a cartoon.
He just wanted to make this story about the hordes
of warfare. And it really is a lot deeper than
you would think.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
So Gundam podcast episode coming soon. I'll leave it at that.

Speaker 3 (24:36):
Something Joshua said about how this is or so and
David about how this is the impact of just multiple
waves of galactic war on the normal person. Whereas in
the first game you go to a lot of cities
of planets with really functional ecosystems and economies and towns,

(25:00):
this game, I think the majority of planets you're on
are either reconstructing from the war, like Telos, or are
just devastated. Because you go back to Corbat, and Corbat
had a whole Sith academy in a Sis city. This
one is a devastated desert, just tombs, and then Dantuin,
which was the Jedi city and Jedi temple again devastated,

(25:24):
just settlements covered in bodies and that visceral Every planet
you go to feels like it's just been ripped apart
by war. And if you played the first one. Planets
you went to in the last game are are just
shells of what they were before. I really like that
the impact that has on your just the psychological experience

(25:48):
of playing the game.

Speaker 1 (25:51):
Yeah, and of course the exiled character themselves, they're ripped
apart from war, from especially their own involvement in the war.
They're they're a broken shell of a person, even as
we have broken shells of planets and people's And maybe
maybe this is very natural. In fact, I think it

(26:12):
is very natural. And you consider the kind of post
war skepticism of like the real world of the just
the rise of sort of this crater kind of philosophy,
this secular existentialism, this old morality just doesn't really work,
like the no purpose of anything, that skepticism that that
followed the Great Wars. And you know, I wonder as

(26:32):
Kotar two gets into some of these ideas of the
the impact of wars ex essentially speaking, I mean, should
we take from that that the Jedi were entirely unjustified
in their war with the Mandalorians? I mean, you know,
at what level do we do balance out unfortunate necessity

(26:56):
with the tragedy of war? I mean, I don't know,
what do you where the Jedi where they justified in
going you know, totals scorts Earth on the Mandalorians.

Speaker 3 (27:15):
I would personally argue, and this is partly just because
of my own, you know, philosophies of just war and pacifism,
But I think Kotor two and Quoture one serve as
an indictment on the Jedi because, and this is partly
because it was influenced by the prequels attack of the

(27:37):
Clones and the Phantom Menace, the Jedi refused to get
involved in the Mandalorian War for so long, which led
to the Galaxy seeing them as being these ivory tower
monks who don't care that entire worlds are getting devastated,
and then Reven saves all the worlds and then turns

(27:57):
into an even bigger threat and starts destroying his own war.
And so I think that that detachment from the first War,
where they're like, oh, if we get involved, we'll turn
to the dark side, and it doesn't matter that entire
populations of civilians are just dying for no good reason,
because the Mandalorian reason for fighting is it's fun. I

(28:20):
think that that really is why they can't see the
difference between the Jedi and the Sith, because what are
the Jedi doing that impacts people on a daily level.
I think that the message I take away is that
you should be like a light Side exile. If you
take the light side path, you are trying to find
the best way to be involved with normal non Jedi people,

(28:43):
traveling around and helping people, so you're visible and you're
you're doing a life where people see what the difference
is in what you believe, and you don't just sit
around and wield enormous power and judge people for making
hard moore or choices like they judge the exile.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
I think it's an important point that we're talking about
the games or even the movies. I feel like the
Jedi don't have a super clearly defined relationship with the
Republic regarding like what their role is. You know, are
there are they warrior defenders or are they pacifist advisors?
And I feel like sometimes they push one way or
the other, but usually they push too hard one way
or the other because they don't have that relationship firmly

(29:27):
worked out. And so I think it's a good point
that you know, first they're potentially guilty of not getting involved,
and then they overcorrect and destroy a planet and it's
like it. And I mean, I don't know how real
world we're going to get with these connections, but I
do think that they're at least dealing with some interesting

(29:48):
dynamics there. I mean, I can throw some other stuff
out there, but I mean, do you guys have any
other questions or thoughts that you want to introduce.

Speaker 4 (30:00):
I saw some people online talking about how they thought
that this game successfully told the story the kind of
story that the movie The Last Jedi failed at doing.
And if you guys have more because I don't remember
The Last Jedi well enough because I did not particularly
like it. I saw it a couple of times, but

(30:22):
to me, it was that whole trilogy. This is a
bit of an aside, but you know, when you were
a kid in school, did you ever do the assignment
where you had a few minutes to write a part
of a story and then pass it to the person
behind you and they had to write more. But you know,
there's a row of like five kids and then the
third kid just says and everybody died, and then the

(30:43):
next guy has to be like but they actually didn't
and just continue the story. That's how I feel about
that second movie and that trilogy. But anyway, I'm just
curious what y'all think they meant by that.

Speaker 2 (30:57):
I am, I'm glad you brought that connection up, David,
and I don't I I think I watched The Last Jedi.
I saw it like the day it came out, right
like I did with The Force Awakens, and even like
some of the prequels when I was a kid, and
I remember like watching the trailers for The Last Jedi

(31:19):
before it came out and thinking this might be the
movie where a big blockbuster Star Wars movie where they
actually explore something different in like the philosophy of the
Jedi and the syth right, and I was hoping they'd
be like, you know, you're kind of like I think

(31:39):
they had like these image images of like Luke, and
he's kind of like, you know, he's like gray and
bearded and scraggly, and he seems like he might have
like a more almost like gray like Jolie Bindo, like
good more gray Jedi or even like I always thought
like it would have been more interesting in episode one
if they like got into Kuai Gun's philosophy more because

(32:01):
I wanted more depth with Qui Gon. I thought he
was an interesting idea that just wasn't wasn't executed well
or its certainly not just maybe wasn't given enough time
to talk more about what he actually believed about the
Jedi in the Sith. But there were these connections there, right,
and then instead of like doing something interesting with that,

(32:22):
it just seemed like a complete yeah, like it just
there's a lot I could say about the Last Jedi,
and I haven't seen it since it came out to
be honest, so I don't have a fresh mind on it.
But I was I was very disappointed that it wasn't
anything like the really the profound ideas exporting koetor two.
I was very disappointed by that. I thought it was

(32:44):
really like subversion in all of the wrong ways, where
I think Kotor two it wasn't just subverting expectations for
the sake of doing that, but it was actually trying
to provide some interesting commentaries on both just philosophy and
Jedal but also just the philosophy of Star Wars at
large and especially those of the Jedi in the Sith,

(33:06):
and kind of providing some different, uh different like avenues
for how to explore that or even even like almost
like a different like via media just in general for that.
So I think there are definitely connections there. I can't
speak too much to them, maybe Ian or Andrew can,
because I haven't seen that movie in a long time,
but I think I agree with you that it was

(33:26):
really like, it looked like it was gonna be something
different and interesting and then it was just really a
disappointing kind of epic fail in my opinion, of doing
that not to dog on episode eight or turn this
podcast into that, and maybe we'll do that later.

Speaker 1 (33:45):
Yeah, I mean I can see the connections there in
that both Kotor two and Last Jedi provide strong critiques
of the Jedi and demonstrating their failings. I mean the
Last Jedi we find out more of the origin story
for Kylo Wren, that basically he's a failed padawan of

(34:06):
Luke and that that's what led Luke to abandon his
attempt to recreate the Jedi. And so there are those critiques,
and then in that what I find to be the
most abysmal scene of that whole movie is when gas
Yota shows up and destroys the old Jedi temple and
sacred texts and says, just burn it down and you know,
go be yourself or something. People trying to correct be

(34:30):
on that and say that, oh, but you know, Ray
had some of the text with her that misses the point,
like the image there is Gostiyoda is showing up to
destroy the foundations of the Jedi, so I guess they
can start fresh. And at that point we're no longer
just creating the Jedi who. We're no longer criticizing the
Jedi who happened to be in charge. We're not criticizing

(34:50):
just the institution. We're criticizing the very foundation of the institution.
And at that point, I think that what the last
Jedi is doing is they're uprooting the very identity of
the Jedi, whereas in Kotor two we're getting some strong
criticisms of the institution where we see, you know, where
they went wrong and like they are under judgment, and
you know, that's something that I that I can appreciate.

(35:11):
You know, same thing about what Qui Gon kind of
introduces to the canon that we see that the Jedi
are not identical with the Light Side, but at their best,
they are servants of the Light Side or representatives of
the Light Side. But as representatives sometimes they can fail
in that task. And I think demonstrating that sometimes they
can fail is a good thing. But saying we need

(35:34):
to uproot them at their very foundations, go back to
the original Jedi temple and demolish it, at that point,
we're doing something similar but in a much more subversive,
like postmodern deconstruction is kind of way. And so I
think that making those connections is interesting. I didn't make
them before you brought that up, David, but I think
that I think it's a good way of framing it

(35:56):
that Kotor two kind of does what the last Jedi did,
but better and in a more wholesome, upbuilding sort of way. Yeah. Interesting, Ian.
Do you have anything to add to that.

Speaker 3 (36:15):
I think I would say that whereas in one of
the biggest problems of the sequel trilogy is the villains
are so undefined, and in my opinion, lazy Crea is
is there is so much work put into CREA's thoughts
and how they work and how they fit in Star Wars,
and there's so much room in the game for you

(36:37):
to figure out how much you agree with her and
how much you disagree, because I don't think you're meant
to come away and say, oh, Creia was wrong with
everything you're supposed to think. She's a liar. She's deeply
traumatized and furious. She refuses to take responsibility for her
own actions, but she does recognize some real old problems

(37:00):
with both the Jedi and the Sith, and her traumatized
perspective I think does often, you know, require us to
look at our own ideas of the good, you know,
return to the odyssey of what do we do with
the idea of how can a good God allow suffering?

(37:23):
Now the force, even though I think there is a
strong argument to be made that you can look at
it in an Augustinian perspective that the light side is
much more akin to the Christian God that it is
to a zen Buddhists, light and dark balanced yin and yang.
I don't want to go too far and say this
is straight up a Christian world, because it isn't. But

(37:46):
I think as Christians we can look at it. And
Krea in particular is very much Nietzsche in the idea
that she wants to kill God, you know, Nietsch's like,
God is dead and we killed him, but he doesn't
as necessarily think that's a good thing. And Crea likewise,
is she wants to kill the force, like that's her

(38:06):
master plan. But it's more nihilism and despair than something
that's aspirational, because there's not going to be anything left
if she wins. She's not really going to have a
galaxy that makes her happy. She's just so broken by
her suffering and betrayal. And I think that we can

(38:26):
really see that in the way people respond to God
in tragedy, you know, the whole theology of the Holocaust
that was so difficult to deal with after World War Two,
and theology of dealing with major terrorist attacks after nine
to eleven. I think we can really see a lot

(38:46):
in Creya that we should be aware of in our
own responses to God.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yeah, I definitely think that what makes Creya so compelling,
or one of the things is that she's obviously the
villain of the story becomes pretty obvious, but as you said,
I mean, some of what she says is true and
it's worth considering, which is what makes her so compelling
but also so dangerous, right, because there is some truth.
There is some validity to her critiques, even though she

(39:16):
doesn't really have something I guess standard to use to
critique the Force or Jedi or whatever. But nonetheless there
is some validity to her critiques. Just says with Nietzsche, honestly,
you know, when he comes onto the scene and he
says God is dead and we have killed him, he's
not saying, you know, as he said. You know, he's
not saying like this is a great thing we should celebrate.
He's not even saying we should go off and kill

(39:38):
God and get rid of the vestiges of religion. I mean,
functionally he does say that, but in his declaration of
the Death of God, he's basically saying that if we
look back at the history of modern thinking, you know,
going back to I mean Descartes, really, but go back
to the beginning of the modern era, and we've been
functionally living like atheists for a long time. Let's start
to do that more responsibly and more intentionally, you know.

(40:00):
And so you know, we still have these vestiges of religion,
but they don't really carry the same significance they once
did regard the practical way that we're thinking. The practical
way we're living, the way that we're organizing society, and
so what we need to do is, you know, tear
down these remaining pillars and just deal with what we have.
And with that, he really became a profit of postmodernism,

(40:23):
and so, you know, building off of that legacy, or
at least lack thereof that void of a legacy that
he left us. You know, now we get people like
Jean Paul Sart who says like, there is nothing except
for whatever you choose to create, and so that Nietzschean
sorcery and idea, that's exactly what cray is trying to propose, right.
She's trying to say, let's get rid of this this

(40:45):
kind of false image of purpose, this false image of
the good that has been placed upon us, and instead
internalize that. You know, as Nietzsche says, essentially, the throne
of God is empty, so go take your seat, right,
That's basic what he's saying. Where we get this idea
of the will to power, that those who are going
to live a life of purpose are those who are

(41:07):
going to will that purpose into being through great strength.
And that's why we see in Crayon that she doesn't
just want the exile to go off and be a
syth And it's like, you know, if you take the
absolute dark path where you just do like the worst
thing at every move, she'll critique you for that too, saying,
as Sart would say, that you're living according to bad faith. Here,

(41:29):
you're just adopting an ideology rather than taking responsibility for
your every action. And the thing is, I think that
when Sart says some things like that, like you need
to take responsibility for your actions, don't just blame it
on an external ideology, I think he's saying something important,
But the same time he's saying it important from the

(41:50):
middle of a black hole. And so it's you take
what he says and you're gonna get sucked into nothingness.
Which is why when you read the psychic existentialist like
they're so depressing. I mean, even as sorry, we'll talk
about the life of strength and like radical freedom, he'll
also say things like in your radical freedom, you're inevitably

(42:11):
lost to despair and abandonment and forlornment, and that's just
what human existence is, which kind of makes the question
if their philosophy is true, why believe it? If there
are no standards like what benefit do you get from that?
And and so I just I love how Crea, the
obvious villain of the story, takes such a secularist, postmodern perspective.

(42:38):
I think it's very wholesome that regard. I just I
can monologue against second existentialism for for a while. I'll
cut it off there.

Speaker 2 (42:51):
Did we want to talk about the the other villains,
the other like obvious villains of the story, but the
ones who are actually really perceived as the villains for
most of the story, because I did want to make
sure we do talk about Darth Scion at some point,
because I think he's extremely interesting as well, right, I mean,

(43:13):
at the beginning of this discussion, Ian mentioned something about
Paragas kind of having like this uh, this mood and
tone of really like almost like a Star Wars horror
story type of type of type of on Beyonce and
even just in the way it's even the way the

(43:35):
event's unfold right, And I think there's a sense where
like I remember as a kid, like being like terrified,
like the first time, like Darth's Scion just appears because
he's pretty much doesn't played this game like he's just
he's like gray, almost like charcoal. He's got just like
cuts all over himself. He's got like a gouged out
dead eye, like he's he's objectively gross looking, like just

(43:58):
to put it a little bit bluntly. But there's all
we could probably say about him. But I think for
me one of the most interesting parts is he he's
killed a ton of Jedi, right, He's like the big
baddie Sith guy for most of the story in a sense,
I mean, Darth Neils is in a sense too. We
can also get to but I can't remember if this

(44:19):
is like a dialogue that always comes up, or if
it's something you have to like draw out of him
at the end. But after you defeat him on Malachor five,
which is like the last point in the game, you
fight him, you defeat him, and I know you can
definitely at least ask him if it was like worth
it to him to basically do all of this, And

(44:41):
I have the quote pulled up, but he basically says
it was not no matter how many I killed, there
was no end to the pain that bleeds, the force
tore through my flesh. I am glad to leave this
place at last. Like that's what he That's how he
responds to you, asking if it was worth it to
try to satisfy that longing to kind of satiate his

(45:03):
appetite for revenge and his sense. And he's kind of
represents the idea that like, revenge is not satisfying, revenge
is not satiating to the soul, right, Like he just
and he the way he physically looks is symbolic and
representative that in of itself in a way. But I

(45:25):
think that quote in that conversation at the end really
just hits the nail at the end of that. Like
he lived this whole dimension at the end of his
life trying to like fill that hunger and void of
basically just slaughtering Jedi and others and trying to hunt
you down and cray down in a sense too. And

(45:46):
at the end of his life he's dying and he's
just like, yeah, it wasn't it wasn't satisfying. It didn't work,
and that's that's it. That's the end for him. Like
he lives his entire life or the last arc of
his life trying to satisfy that and he failed because
it always fails. You can't satisfy the soul with revenge
you can't.

Speaker 4 (46:08):
And he's kind of like he's achieved that Sith goal
of immortality, right, Like he's using the Force to literally
hold his body together, isn't he? And so the other
the other one's Nihilus, right, which understanding that name is
pretty obvious. But he's kind of the opposite, like he's
he has no body, he's almost he's just an entity. Really,

(46:31):
that's just like consuming the force, the living force and people.
It's interesting that they kind of dualism between those two villains.
But yeah, I don't have much more to say. I
just thought that was they're they're well designed characters, I think.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
I think that they're both very unique compared to the
Star Wars buildins that you get elsewhere in that they're
both essentially entities of the of the Force. I mean,
Sion you knows, you said he's basically zombie that's held
together by the Force. You got Nilas, who is barely
even a person. He's just a hunger at this point,
just consuming planets and whatever else. And you know, in

(47:11):
many ways like that they're different, but also they're very
similar and that you know, they're both trying to consume
something to give them a sense of purpose that they
can never find in what it is that they're consuming,
you know, because they both identify their life ultimately with
an absence. Zion identifies his life with pain, which is
the absence of health or absence of pleasure. Neilas he

(47:32):
satisfies himself on I mean hunger really like, that's how
he identifies himself as hunger, which is the lack of saciety.
And so you know, they both identify themselves by a negative,
and so that's all that they are possible, the only
thing they are able to receive. It's like in We're
doing our book club on Augustin's Confessions, and Augustine mentions

(47:53):
at one point that in Our Blindness, talking about the
impact of sin, he said, in our blindness, we glory
in the fact that we can't see. We treat that
as if that's some how a strength of ours and
because of that very reason, well, we can't see because
we don't want to be healed. And so I think
we definitely see that playing out in the different kinds

(48:14):
of hunger that we get in these two villains in particular.

Speaker 3 (48:24):
I think it's also really cool how some of your
companions and your own story really mirror the three villains.
Of course, the Exile and Krea have that forced bond
from the beginning, and their journeys of rejection and betrayal
from their institutions intentionally mirror each other. But you know,
you have Aton and if you have the restored content

(48:45):
mod that fixes some of the problems with the ending
in the game. On the PC, he's paralleled with Scion,
you know, his vengeance and his redemption quest versus Scions
living only like holding himself together literally with the four
suggests to kill people he views as wronging him. You know,
that's a really powerful parallel. And then the character of Visus,

(49:09):
who was held prisoner by Nihilis for so long after
he ate her world and you have to tear her
out of this suicidal, self destructive worldview, and then she
confronts him in the AIRD. Like these parallels and connections
between your character and your party members and the villains
I think adds so much emotional an thematic depth to

(49:33):
what they represent like you. Of course, in the first game,
you have the connection between Revin and Malik and Basil,
and that's a nice Master Apprentice betrayal Triumvirate relationship. But
I think the Sith triumvirate and the Coach are two
characters are much deeper. There's so much more meaning to

(49:53):
delve from those relationships and those parallels.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
Yeah, as you mentioned, you get Visa smart her or
she is kind of suicidal in wake of her time
with Nilis, and it just another example of how they
demonstrate this will to power idea leave them empty, and
it leaves destructure in their wake. And I don't have

(50:23):
a whole lot to add to that, but I just
think that that is a significant element of her dynamic,
in particular that she demonstrates that anything else anyone wants
to throw in there.

Speaker 4 (50:39):
One of the main things that I remembered from the
game was the whole Sith academy and how just the
idea of the Sith having an academy seems antithetical to
the Sith way of thinking. And then but when you're
in that school, if I remember right, it's just nothing
but backstabbing and attempting to take everybody out. And I

(51:00):
just thought that was kind of a funny, funny idea.
And how you know, no matter what path you take,
you've got to enter the Sith Academy. Right, So it's
either under false pretenses or or or just because you
are following that dark path.

Speaker 2 (51:15):
Is that?

Speaker 4 (51:16):
Is that right?

Speaker 2 (51:18):
So that's actually in the first Kotor game. I'm not
sure if you were thinking of is it really? Yeah,
So you go to to the planet Corvette and Kotor one,
and then you have to enter the academy. That's kind
of like as a means of getting into one of
the tombs that exists behind the academy and which the
only way to get to it is to go through
the academy. But when you go, you go back to

(51:39):
corbet on Kotor two, and it's very desolate, like the
academy is unsurprisingly based on their own Sith philosophy, is
it's basically like internally self destructed and on itself, like
it's abandoned. But like you do raise a good point
there and Kotar one basically this is like this is idea,

(52:01):
the Sith idea of like you know, the two it's
like you have like the two big dogs in a sense,
and it's like you have like the Sith Lord and
then like the Sith Lord's apprentice. In a way, it's
kind of like the Darth City is Darth Vader complex
or conception, and even in the Academy, like there's this
the head the head Han show of the Academy, and

(52:22):
then there's the the Twelck girl who's like the the
basically number two in that situation, and she comes to
you at the end and she's like, Yeah, I've got
this great idea to backstab my master, so I could
be become number one. You're gonna become my number two
because you're powerful and you'd make a great like asset
to this. But then the whole idea is like you're like,

(52:42):
if that's true, like it would make sense for you
to come after her one day. And there's different like
options for how you can play that out. And I
know this is a koet or two podcast, so I
don't want to grant about kode or one too much,
but basically you can play that out in different ways
where like you can like join one to kill the other,
or you can even the path I like to take
on the light side is like I just you know,

(53:02):
go one v two and end up taking them both
out for the for the greater good in the sense.
But yeah, there is I mean, that's that is you know,
certainly a valid criticism of the Sith ideology there that
I think that probably doesn't play out in some ways
in Kotor two.

Speaker 4 (53:18):
Gotcha? Yeah, wow, I really thought it was in this
game that just goes to show I need I need
to play them again. But so you do go back
to the same location into But is that is that
the final area?

Speaker 3 (53:32):
You know?

Speaker 2 (53:32):
It doesn't have to be as far as I remember,
so obviously in these games, like for listeners who don't know,
like you can a lot of the planets that are
that you go to throughout the vast majority of the
game are like you can go to them in certain orders, right,
so I know I usually go there towards the end
or that's just strategic. I like to go to uh

(53:53):
nor Should, especially to get like a lot of the
party members in the h K forty seven Droid parts personally,
plus NR I was just like my favorite of like
those those planets. Personally, I think it's the most interesting
in the way that it's written. But yeah, you can
go there like at any time as far as I.

Speaker 4 (54:10):
Know, gotcha, Well, I do remember I remember choosing the
final battle, I stood outside of of the agro range
and just through the lightsaber, and they never reacted to what.

Speaker 1 (54:23):
It was doing.

Speaker 4 (54:24):
It died. So probably not the best method, but I
think I may have struggled with it finally discovered that.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
Yeah, the cheesing mechanics are probably real. Throughout this whole series.
You can kind of just like run around and heal
and regenerate force when you fight, like Malik in the
first game. But yeah, you can like basically isolate Treya's
three or Darth Treya's three lightsabers and fight them one
on one and then it's way easier if you want
to go that route. You could argue it's strategic in
a sense.

Speaker 1 (54:52):
Right, Yeah, hopefully they go a different route when if
they ever do a cinematic adapt patient they'll be very antiplomatic.
But yeah, I do think the dynamics of the scythe Academy,
going from the first game to the Ruins in the
second game, it's just another good demonstration of how evil
fragments rather than unites. And you see this a lot

(55:14):
in Tolkien's writing as well. You know, you get a
sour amount of many colors who takes the white Light
and breaks it into different disparate pieces, or the fact that,
you know, the Orcs are always at each other's throats,
like quite literally, like they're always fighting and killing each other.
Because the evil divide, it isolates the fragments, whereas the
good unites, it brings together. And so I do think

(55:36):
that the just untenable nature of the Sith Academy is
just a good representation of that reality, that it's just
it's it's not a tenable academy. We literally have everybody
just trying to kill each other and get to the
top position that this you really can't have just an
inverted Jedi order, that that's not a thing, it's it's

(55:59):
it's falling to nothingness, so substance behind it. And so
I do think that that's a good dynamic dealing with
the ruins of that institution.

Speaker 2 (56:08):
Parallels to the postmodern American state university system. Andrew question mark,
Oh gosh.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
I don't. I can't publish. Yeah, I cannot. Uh try
to get me, try to get me fired.

Speaker 3 (56:30):
I mean we could we could talk about the mainstream
Christian denominations instead. No one's going to get fired for that.

Speaker 1 (56:40):
No, No, we don't need to talk about the Episcopalians here.

Speaker 5 (56:43):
Oh sorry, Hey, actually weirdly enough, I have I have
a connection here and this isn't going to like uh,
I don't think caused any inter denominational squabbles.

Speaker 2 (56:58):
But a really interesting character that I think a character
that's super underrated in this game is the character Godo.
And obviously that's like the spherical black droid that follows
you around for most of the game. However, there's the
hologram of the character Godo, and he's basically he's a

(57:19):
very alternative perspective to like everyone else in this entire game,
because he sees the Jedi in a Sith. And whether
he's right or wrong, and this can be debated, but
maybe there's some truth to what he's saying, but he
sees the Jedi in the Sith, really, and all this
destruction that comes between the two as some sort of

(57:40):
like intersectarian religious conflict in a sense. And I do
have a quote from him pulled up if you can't tell.
I watched the scenes on YouTube to prepare for this
because I wanted to be somewhat non extemporaneous. But I'm
just gonna read this quote because I think it's fascinating.
So when you're talking to him about what's going on

(58:00):
in his interest in this conflict. He says this, I
do not wish to stop the Sith anymore than I
wish to stop the Jedi. It is simply important to
me that the infighting among these Jedi religious branches be
resolved so the galaxy, So the galaxy may be put
back together. I do not care which one triumphs. I
only want the universe to settle down for a while,

(58:23):
catch its breath. All these constant crises are getting somewhat repetitive.
So he's really he's critical, and as far as I know,
he's almost like, I think he has like some sort
of like more maybe like economic somewhat utilitarian esque interest
in the galaxy. But there's a point to what he's

(58:43):
saying where he's like, hey, like these wars are self destructive.
They reduce like the the quality of life and cause
a lot of problems for not just the people at
the top, but also just the common man, like the peasants,
basically everybody in the galaxy. And he's like, I just
want somebody to win out already, basically so that the
maybe like the galactic economy can flourish and that we

(59:06):
can live better lives in a sense, right, And I
kind of think back to like, and I don't want
to like obviously get into this dimension of our reality
and our past in a sense, but I kind of
think of like it's like in like the seventeenth century,
a lot of like the conflicts in England between different
factions you have, like you know, eventually the Whigs and
the Tories, but even like the conflicts between like the

(59:29):
Parliamentarians and the uh those who are supportive of like
the monarch Charles the First and eventually Charles the Second.
I mean, just even like the general like Roman Catholic
versus Protestant conflicts through all of Europe and especially in England, right,
And there's a point to that where it's just like,
you know, how can we all just like get along
and coexist in a sense and have disagreement but be

(59:53):
be unified in a way, and like how can And
that does obviously play out in some positive ways throughout
the History act or that, but I think he raises
a valid question and point about like how can we
just get along? Or maybe even he wants one or
the other to win out And that's like that provokes
the question of like would it be better for the

(01:00:14):
Jedi and the Sith, the Jedi or the Sith to
win out right, And maybe that's a criticism of philosophy,
is that he he doesn't really care which one wins.
And that's that can be problematic, right because like we
don't ultimately want the Sith to win out. But I
think he's a really underrated character and I think there's
a lot to be even just discussed there.

Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
Yeah, And I think that's an interesting point. I mean,
perhaps you could we argue that he is the voice
of secularism really, you know, that that that mentality of
like I don't really care about the Jedi, I don't
really care about the Sith. I mean, you know, you know,
they can go on practicing their little religion or whatever

(01:00:59):
as long as there'sn't really impact me or the global order.
You know that it's kind of that Peace of Westphalia
idea less end the fighting between the Catholics and the
Protestants and basically just everyone keep to themselves. You know,
we're not really going to deal with this on the
public stage anymore. You know, there's some benefit in that
in that, I mean, sectarian conflicts I'm often aren't good,

(01:01:22):
like war often is not good for At the same time,
do we want to repress this significance of ideologies essentially
say that anything calls the conflict is bad. I think
that's a dangerous position as well. You know, I don't
always know what the best path is forward, but I
think that we could see some positive as well as
definitely some long term negative ramifications of that kind of thinking,

(01:01:45):
where we're just going to limit the significance of ideas altogether.

Speaker 4 (01:01:51):
And there's a prevailing attitude amongst certain people you know
that will say religion is the source of all war,
as the wars wouldn't be fought without religion. I'm not
advocating for South Park, but I do remember there was
a particular episode where, you know, I think Richard Dawkins
was saying that, and then one of the characters ends

(01:02:11):
up in the future and it's just two atheist factions
fighting this endless civil war over what to call themselves,
I believe is what it was. But yeah, that's way
off the rails.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
But anyway, a south Park actually, weirdly enough, does say
a lot of profound things. But I hear you. It's
hard to advocate some of the language and certainly can
be offensive and pretty offensive in content sometimes.

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Yeah, I think the twentieth century shows us pretty clearly
that secularist regimes can be very violent.

Speaker 4 (01:02:50):
Absolutely well.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
Any other maybe we can end on and some kind
of light note related to gameplay or whatever, But I mean,
is there anything else on then the deeper end anyone
wants to bring up that hasn't already been discussed.

Speaker 3 (01:03:11):
I think that on a gameplay level, one of the
things that's so much more fun is a lot of
people will talk about how the level cap and leveling
system in the first game kind of requires them to
hold levels, which kind of artificially constrains your progress in

(01:03:34):
the game, because you become a Jedi about a third
of the way into Kodoor one, and so your first
four to ten levels are kind of pointless in terms
of being a Jedi, and in fact can often take
away your ability to develop your force powers. Whereas you

(01:03:54):
start as a Jedi in Kodoor two and you're able
to get a more specific what are they called, there's
a specialty class that you become a special kind of
Jedi or a syth depending on if you go dark side,
And I think that The fact that there's no functional
level cap in the second game means you can have

(01:04:15):
a much more organic sense of development as a character,
whereas in the first game, I think you really need
to plan at least five or six of your your
final levels so you get specific power, so you're able
to actually beat the game, like there's a couple of
powers that you need, or you just kind of die
in the final level, whereas Kotor two you can kind

(01:04:37):
of just explore. You can you can go down a
path and figure out what you enjoy most as a
Jedi or a syth. I think that is really one
of the things that makes me love the game more
than the first game.

Speaker 1 (01:04:52):
Yeah, I can second that. I mean just from gameplay
level In Kotor one, I always maintain level one until
I've become a Jedi, which makes things a little bit more,
a little bit more difficult in Terrists, but definitely not unmanageable.
But in Kotor two, it's it's much more of a
fluid experience. There's no incentive to hold levels, and so
I think that's a that's a good point. It throws
you right into the well the Star Wars feel of

(01:05:15):
you know, force powers and all that kind.

Speaker 3 (01:05:17):
Of thing.

Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
Now. I don't know, maybe we'll wrap things up said
on a lighter note, maybe just who are your your
two favorite companions to take with you? I know, for
for me, it very much depends on what kind of
game Am'm playing, you know, my dark Light? Am I
doing lying on Force Powers? Am I just doing Lightsaber?

(01:05:41):
But I think that philosophy aside. Just my favorite characters
to play with are again, I like h K. My
one of my first priorities when I play games is
always to get all his parts and put them back together.
So I have to take HK, and I like taking
Candabis around. So maybe I'm double up on the the

(01:06:01):
well potentially blasters, although sometimes I give Canvas a melee.
But I like Candas, I like HK. I think those
are my two picks, Josh, who are your two favorites
to play with?

Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
I mean, honestly, a lot of the time I find
myself just end up sticking with the original too, right, Like,
so you have you meet Korea on Peraugas, and then
you meet at in a holding cell on Parugus very
shortly after that, like literally maybe like two to five
minutes after you meet Korea, just depending on how fast

(01:06:34):
you're moving, I guess, But those are probably my two
favorite characters to run with the most of the game,
not just because I think they're the most interesting to
talk to from the perspective of the player through the exile,
but also they honestly just have some really interesting banter
with each other. And part of that's probably just because
of different beliefs, but also just different personalities. Right, You've

(01:06:54):
got this old old lady with a traumatized past who's
a sage in some sense, but also has some profound
yet terrible ideas. And then you've got Aton, who is
really deep beneath the surface, but on the surface again,
he's like the charismatic, like you know, witty swashbuckling rogue type,

(01:07:16):
and he has a lot of sarcasm and wit that
he uses in his dialogue. But I think they're both interesting.
But as I've said before, like I really love pretty
much all of the characters in this game, and honestly,
I'll I'll switch up the characters I play with the
most every time I play through this game, because there's
a richness to really exploring them all.

Speaker 1 (01:07:38):
In a sense, Yeah, I definitely think from a storytelling angle,
Kreya and at And are probably the best ones to
go with. It's probably the best one to stick with
for your first run, especially all right, Ian.

Speaker 3 (01:07:53):
Is so hard to pick just two, Oh my goodness,
because there's definitely characters I don't care about as much,
but I love at least five or six of the characters.
So going with two, I think I'm gonna have to
go with Mirah, the former Mandalorian captive who becomes a

(01:08:17):
bounty hunter on whom you can influence to become a Jedi.
I think that her story is really one that I
think shows how a Jedi can positively impact the universe
on an individual basis. And then Candoris or the Mandalorian
sorry not Mandalor. Actually I hated Boba Fette in the

(01:08:42):
original trilogy, mostly because I feel like people treat him
like he's a really deep character when really he does
next to nothing. He figures out how to track on
solo and then he falls in a pit. Whereas Candoris
throughout the two games has this incredible character arc, and
he's actually incredibly hardcore and has so many feats and

(01:09:07):
things that he does that are really cool. Plus when
you first beat him in the second game, you see
a whole picture of Mandalorian culture as he's reforming. So
inspired by Revin, he has become a reformer himself of
Mandalorian culture, and so that fits with the Jedi exiles

(01:09:27):
attempt to reform the Jedi as an institution. But I mean,
I just love so many other characters like Visus and
T three and go To, but those two I think,
if I'm forced to pick two, are the ones I'll
focus on.

Speaker 1 (01:09:42):
Now. Yeah, the I mentioned that the Boba Fet criticism
that I mean, obviously, you're right, he doesn't really do
anything significant. I think that he is, as the kids say,
he's all vibes like he's something really cool about him,
but he doesn't really do much. Wise. The the the

(01:10:03):
Kotor games definitely build out Mandalorianism far more than Boba
Fet does, all right, David.

Speaker 4 (01:10:09):
Yeah, And you know he has a cool suit of
armor and Darth Vader points at him and says no disintegrations,
and I think that carries almost everything that that people
loved about him. Yeah, I I gotta go with with
Aton and Krea, just because they're almost the only characters
that I can remember from my playthrough, so I must
have stuck with them quite a bit, and I did

(01:10:33):
like the the view of the universe that Atton kind
of gave a little little extra depth to the Star
Wars universe. So and of course same for Cray as well,
So that would be my answer.

Speaker 1 (01:10:48):
Cool cool, all right, Well, I think that I enjoyed
this conversation. Falwe dealt with some significant things, all just
some fun things, and I look forward to what we
do next time. So I do think we were going
to do one episode at least on the Old Republic,
and so Ian, I'm sure you'll want to contribute on that,

(01:11:09):
you know, David, is time to jump in real quickly.
We'll see what you can do.

Speaker 5 (01:11:14):
Man.

Speaker 4 (01:11:15):
Yeah, that's a lot of ground to cover, I think.

Speaker 1 (01:11:19):
I mean, surely you have, like I don't know, eighty
hours to finish a couple stories real quickly. Gorast some
red bull, get to it, all right, all right, we'll
go ahead and wrap it there. Thanks again, everyone, and
I will I'm sure see you again, all right, bye,

(01:11:41):
all right. I hope that you enjoyed that. I know
that I did, and I hope that you'll continue with
us in this new venture as we pursue wisdom through
our discussion of video games. As I record this a
little bit ahead of time, I can't guarantee the schedule,
but I'm pretty sure that next time we will be
talking about the Old Republic, the MMO game, and so

(01:12:01):
I look forward to getting to that as we continue
this series. And again, if you are enjoying this, then
I welcome to your patronage. You know, become an insider
to get some insider information, play a part in creating
the kinds of things that we're doing here. Head over
to patreon dot com slash Mythic Mind. And I should
say that at least starting out after this episode, we're
probably going to start off with going every other week

(01:12:22):
on Fridays, so you're not waiting too long. I'm going
to try to get the next episode out on June sixth,
and after that it'll be every other Friday. All right. Well,
I hope you enjoyed this and I look forward to
next time. Until then, God Speak The Elder Scrolls in

(01:12:46):
Philosophy a six week course beginning of September twenty twenty five.
I don't play many video games these days, but there
are certain titles that have stuck with me. Enchanting the
Mind of my youth and never entirely fading away. One
of the chiefs among these titles is the Elder Scrolls,
namely Marwin, Oblivion and Skyrim. The level of artistry, mythology,

(01:13:09):
and lore of this universe is vast and provides a
strong representative for asking the question as to how video
games might relate to literature as an art form. Where
might it rise to such a level, where must it
fall short? And what unique advantages does it possess. For
this eight week study, we'll be seeking to answer these
questions while analyzing various elements of this franchise, specifically focusing

(01:13:32):
on content related to Morow and Oblivion and Skyrim. Will
be taking a look at the philosophy of RPGs and
considering the philosophical implications of character creation and formation in
an open ended series such as this, and will be
looking at the relationship between in game religion, lore, and
ideas with our primary world philosophical and religious concepts. Each

(01:13:53):
week will include one to two videos addressing these topics,
ongoing discord conversations, and live meetings. You are also in
courage to spend at least a little time playing one
of these titles each week as a launching pad for conversation.
Join us in Tamreil that we might better understand our
primary life here on Monday's Enrolled today by going to
patreon dot com slash Mythic Mind and checking out the shop,

(01:14:16):
or you can access all courses that begin during your
subscription period if you purchase a Tier three annual subscription.
Get that Tier three annual subscription and I'll give you
that special code for your all Access pass. I hope
to see you there.