3 - Star Wars The Old Republic

We conclude our Old Republic mini-series with SWTOR (the mmo) for a broad-level discussion of themes, stories, and the moral nature of gameplay.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello, and welcome to the Mythic Mind Games podcast, where
we pursue wisdom on the past between primary secondary worlds
with a focus on video games. I'm doctor ANDREWS. Knyder,
and I'm glad that you're here. Hey, they welcome back. Today.
I'm joined by Ian Miller to wrap up our Knights

(00:24):
of the Old Republic series with Star Wars the Old Republic,
the MMO that came as something of a sequel to
Nights of the Old Republic one and two. Now, as
we discuss, this is a game that I mostly played
many years ago. I mean it's probably been I don't know,
ten years since I had really played it. Now I
recently played a little bit in preparation for this. I

(00:47):
did recently play through the Jedi Knight storyline as a refresher.
But there are, I mean, there are eight different class
stories that are like fully worked out games, they're just
countless companions. Like this is a difficult came to remember
the details of, and so for that reason, I mean,
Ian really did a great job of carrying this conversation.
It was difficult for me to remember the details, let

(01:09):
alone engage in significant philosophical analysis and investigation. But I
thought that it was important to wrap up this series
with this game, and so keep that in mind as
we as we get into this. I feel like it
was a good conversation. It was a fruitful conversation, even
though I wasn't really equipped to go as in depth
as I would like to. Let's go ahead and get
to it, and at the end I will reveal where

(01:31):
we're going next. All right, well, welcome back to Mythic
Mind Games. As we wrap up this series on the
Old Republic. This is a game that perhaps is less
familiar to many of the listeners versus the first two games,
the Kudr one Kudre two, But I thought that it's
important to to kind of round things out here. Although

(01:54):
I should say that I played through this game quite
a bit years ago, went through all all the class stories,
which that alone is basically like eight more Kotar games.
With how in depth and just well written these various
class stories are. Now for that same reason, makes it
a little bit difficult to remember years later what's happening
in each story. But I think that this is significant enough,

(02:19):
It has enough staying power that I think it's gonna
be a good conversation. Join here by Ian, who I
think is the only other member of our fellowship who's
played this game, and so I look forward to seeing
what he has to say about this. In fact, maybe
maybe that's just where we'll start. Just tell us generally
about your experience with the game. You know, how long
you've been playing, I mean, kind of where do you
want to start off with your own relationship with this game.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah, so I played Quotar two in college, and then
I played Quotar one in between college and grad school.
And that was around two thousand and eight. Two thousand
and nine when they announced The Old Republic, which I
think was actually like four years before it actually came out.

(03:02):
You know, you had that trailer of the shuttle slamming
into the Jedi temple and all the Syth coming out,
and you had that great lightsaber battle between the main
Sith and the main Jedi. I was really excited. I
read the Talian novel that came out at the time,
Fatal Alliance, and then when the actual game came out,

(03:23):
I subscribed for three months because I thought I could
finish one of the storylines in that time. Unfortunately, I miscalculated,
and I got to level forty nine of fifty and
didn't quite finish it then, and that was back in
twenty eleven twenty twelve, whenever the game first came out.
I didn't try again until the pandemic, and so I

(03:49):
was able to still work, but a lot of the
other social things that I was doing at the time
kind of disappeared during the pandemic. So during the nights
I would play The Old Republic and I finished all
of the storylines, included the first one they started, and
then I did all the other seven. Had a really
good time. I think that took me between four to

(04:13):
six months. It was a pretty significant amount of time
that I developed because I wasn't rushing, I was just
having fun playing the game. I didn't I did never
go on to the Fallen Empire storyline, the DLC stuff,
which has been continuing. I think it's kind of fun
to note that The Old Republic still has about one

(04:35):
hundred thousand people who still play it daily, which is
pretty significant for a thirteen year old game.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah. Now, I can't remember when I first or I
know it wasn't there when it first came out. I
think I joined right around the time that the first
DLC the Hut Cartel came out, although I never really
got to that content, but that's about when I jumped
into it, and I mean I was just blown away.
I have not played a lot of MMOs now, I

(05:07):
mean I played. I played Wow a good bit back
at the launch. You know. I was there from the
the open beta up till probably a little past Burning Crusade,
and I jumped into here and there every once in
a while for a couple of years. But moving to
the Old Republic, it's just a totally different dimension. I mean,
for one thing, I think a Star Wars just has

(05:27):
richer potential for storytelling. I say, this is somebody who
really enjoyed, like you know, Warcraft three, and like, I
think they do some stuff and some significant stuff there.
But I think Star Wars is such a richer environment.
And then also the full voice acting that the fact
that each class does have its own fully work story.
I was just really blown away by this potential, by

(05:49):
by this experience that I really wasn't expecting, because in
many ways, the Old Republic it is kind of like
a Wow skin, and that it keeps all the same
basic gameplay elements down to the user interface, Like everything
is almost exactly the same mechanically, with the difference being
I think it's just a much richer potential for storytelling.

(06:13):
Have you Have you delved much into MMOs outside.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
Of I'd heard a lot about both Wow and Star
Wars Galaxies, the previous Star Wars MMO in college, but
I never got into them, and I never played the
MMO part of The Old Republic either. I basically played
it as as you said, like eight sequels to Knights
to the Old Republic, because it's structured in such a

(06:40):
way that you can have a full story just playing
as if it were a single player game.

Speaker 1 (06:47):
Yeah, that's that's true. That's that's mostly how I played
as well. I mean now for the MMO element, I
would sometimes do the battleground games and those were kind
of fun, but you know, otherwise, yeah, I agree, you
can play them fully independently, which is mostly how I
did it. In that I mean, per when I have
played games over the last several years, it's usually you know,

(07:08):
late at night or kind of whatever. I can work
it in here and there, and so not not great
for like actually socially playing. So as we mentioned, it's
kind of like eight games packed into one. Just looking
at the class stories, what are what are some of
your favorites or what's what is your favorite out of
the eight?

Speaker 2 (07:28):
I would say I have two favorites, and that would
be the Trooper. As people who have listened to the
previous Star Wars podcasts that I've been on know, I
love the x Wing series of novels, So I love
that sort of ground level elite troop band of brothers,
military science fiction story, and the Trooper is very much

(07:48):
you get to live that story. You you collect your
squad members, you train with them, you go on these
missions where you save other soldiers, you say, civilians. It's
is perfect for someone who enjoys that military science fiction,
small unit tactics type thing. I also really love the

(08:10):
Jedi Consular, which is different than the Jedi Knight. So
the Jedi Knight is much more a warrior going in
pursuit of glory and honor. The Jedi consulor is a diplomat.
You are constantly forming relationships with important representatives of groups
and trying to offer things and fix problems for those

(08:31):
groups so they'll join you in your alliance. And the
reason I like that Jedi Consular better than the Night
is every one of the eight storylines has a finale.
In the finale of The Jedi Night, you arrive at
the final planet, which is Karelia, and a bunch of
people who saw you do stuff in the past show
up and say you inspired me. I'm gonna follow you now,

(08:53):
which is nice, but it doesn't feel like you had
to work on that. When you get to Karelia as
the Jedi counsulor all of the Alliance, you've formed, all
the different people groups, all the different ships and military
units that you've done favors for, you've solved problems for.
They are part of your team, and you get to
coordinate like a real like a leader in general, you

(09:14):
say this team has this specialty, go over here, and
so it feels much more like you built up this
entire faction of people that help fight the Sith Empire.
And that's a really different way of being a Jedi
than I think the movies really portray that. I really
liked being able to experience. It's still very spiritual, still

(09:35):
very much focused on the force, but it's not in
that direct way. It's in that relational and diplomatic way.

Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah, you definitely generally speak. Well, maybe I shouldn't say that.
In this game in particular, I suppose with the Jedi storylines,
it definitely is a lot more engaged than the general
detachment that you see in the movies that that's at least
your players. I mean, I guess it'd be kind of
boring if you weren't. But I think that we definitely

(10:06):
just see more involvement. And I think that part of
that has to do with just the general head to
head nature of the Jedi in the Sith that it
is kind of underwrapped in the in the movies, versus
this major galactic conflict that's you know, already kind of
the Galaxy of part and at the beginning of these
stories it's threatening to do that again, there's this this
kind of cautious piece. But I did recently replay the

(10:30):
Jedi Night story, and that's the only one I've played recently,
and I do think that they do some pretty sophisticated
things with that story. I think it's very interesting that
it really begins on a somewhat political angle, where you know,
you have the these natives of sorts attacking the Jedi civilization,

(10:51):
and so you know, kind of dealing with you know
what's going on there, you know what what's something seems
to be funding them or equipping them, or you know,
setting them off on this. And so as you uncover
that plot, you know, eventually you discovered that there seemed
to be some kind of Sith backing, but even then
it's kind of unclear. Then you move on to Coorissant,
where we continue from a very political kind of angle
that there are all these refugees in Coroissant that had

(11:13):
been kind of just taken advantage of by this criminal
enterprise that's come in. And so we really start on
a very political kind of angle dealing with some very
hot button issues that I don't know if they would
have wrote that story today, or at least it would
have looked very differently I think if they did. And
then out of the political we start to emerge into
the more spiritual, the more religious conflict between the light

(11:35):
and the dark, that the Jedi and the Sith, until
eventually you're coming head to head with essentially the devil,
the Sith emperor, who doesn't he's unlike Palpatine, he even
you know, he doesn't have like a peace and order.
He's trying to establish he just wants to consume everything,
very much in Anhelist kind of way, and so we
get these strong terms between being and non being happening

(11:58):
here and along the way, you have to, you know,
undergo a kind of repentance. You know, you gotta break
out of influence, and then you know, decide how you're
gonna deal with your fellow Jedi who had fallen. And
so there's a very spiritual element that spirals up from
the political and it reminds me of this quote from
Kirkyguard kimming Rid word for word, but he basically says that,

(12:21):
you know, eventually the political gets unmasked to reveal the religious,
and I think that that is actually accomplished pretty well
in the Jedi Night story.

Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, I'd agree. I think that in general, all of
the four Sith and Jedi storylines do a very good
job of showing how the underlying moral and religious beliefs
of that forced wielding set plays out into the political order.
So I think it's really interesting that, unlike the prequel movies,

(12:57):
the Jedi have removed themselves from direct Republic control. They're
no longer on Coruscant at the time of the game.
You're on your own planet, whereas the Sith are in
direct control of the entire political structure of the empire.
So the Jedi, your political and moral elements are very

(13:19):
much on a liminal basis. You're kind of between official
and unofficial, and it's up to you to navigate those
things when you interact with senators and regular people. Whereas
when you come in as a Sith, you are a
direct representative of the governing theocracy of the Sith Empire,

(13:39):
and you know the guiding principles of the Sith of
aggression and hatred and envy, and you know all the
things that we think of as sins, the cardinal sins.
You embody that for people. Even if you are playing
a light side character. One of the things that I
enjoy playing is I am always lightside because I just

(14:01):
enjoy being that kind of character. So being a light
side Sith and maneuvering around all these dark side darths
and your masters and the Emperor himself eventually is really
kind of funny because it shows the difference that someone
who's trying to live according to virtues versus someone who's
always selfishly attempting to betray, destroy, consume everyone around them

(14:26):
makes and I think that well, of course they want
Sith players to have fun. The writers of the game
aren't interested in portraying some kind of utopia. When the
people with the religious force powers have the power, they
show all the negative consequence of that selfishness and that

(14:46):
greed and that lust.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, it is interesting playing the opposite of alignment of
what's natural. I mean, especially if you're playing a light
side because one hand, that play style means that you're
you're maintaining a certain kind of honor, that you're not
just consumed by what's gonna gave me. The dark side points,

(15:11):
you know, what's the I'm gonna kick a puppy just
because it's there. It's it's more of you're more rational
in what you're doing, even though you're still working for
an evil empire. You know, maybe you could argue that
you're you're playing some kind of reformer. And in fact,
even in the Jedi Night story, you encounter the Sith
on Oh I can't remember, maybe maybe it was tattooing.

(15:32):
He's someone who tries to maintain you know, honor and
fidelity and as somebody that who makes him really stand
apart for that reason, but of course it's very arguable
that that kind of syth would be far would make
for a far more effective empire than the one that's
just constantly backstabbing and betraying.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
You know.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
I've commented before on Twitter that if I were a Sith,
I would not take an apprentice is going to kill you, right,
I don't understand the upside. I suppose that it's just
a demonstration of the irrationality of evil, which like, whenever
you have a villain who just wants to destroy everything,

(16:14):
you know, that seems kind of cliche people will you
kind of turn away from that, thinking that it's just,
you know, we need someone that we can really relate to.
But at the same time, I think that's actually a
pretty solid demonstra representation of what actual evil is. If
you could get as close as you can get to
absolute evil, it's just destroying everything just because we hate goodness.

(16:36):
And so I guess that is something that the Sis
had going for him.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
Well. I would argue that we've got several of what
I would consider death cults in today's political movement, certain
types I don't want to say all types, but certain
types of environmentalism very much want basically human extinction certain
types of philosophy or like existence is suffering and the

(17:00):
goal of humanity should be to end suffering. So we
should end human distance because then end suffering. Like that's
almost literally what the Sith Emperor and Krea and Kotor
two want, is this end of existence because their own
life is so much pain, or they perceive it to
be so much pain. Yeah, I think there is some
realism in that kind of villain really.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
Yeah, yeah, you're You're exactly right, and you know, ultimately
taking a very Augustinian framework as I tend to do,
I mean, that's behind all forms of evil, that even
more palatable evils than we want the elimination of humanity.
It comes down to valuing lesser goods over the higher goods.
And in valuing lesser goods, we're turning away from the

(17:41):
font of goodness. We're turning away from the source of
being toward non being. You know, it's a very Platonic
Augustinian way of viewing things, but I think that I
think that's true. And so whether we go all the
way to we just want to eliminate existence, to I
prefer lesser forms of existence over the greater it's moving
in the same trajectory. And so I do think that

(18:02):
these great world destroying villains are telling something real about
certain elements of contemporary philosophy and politics, as well as
just something real about the reality of all sin, even
the more palatable and relatable ones to most of us.
So I'm actually very much okay with the irrationality of
the Sith as the storytelling element. Now you say, you you, you,

(18:30):
you always play light side, whether you're republic or or empire. Now,
maybe this gives us We've addressed this a little bit
in previous conversations, but what would you say about somebody
who enjoys playing the dark side? Is there resalithing about

(18:52):
the characters that play style? Like, what do we think?

Speaker 2 (18:55):
I think there's a There's a really good article I
found when I was prepping for this episode call a
Moral Galaxy War and Suffering in Star Wars the Old
Republic by doctor Robert Garassi and nat Racine that addresses
this very question. And they said that someone who chooses

(19:15):
the negative or or vicious or sinful play style or
pattern is that there's no demonstrated correlation between that and
you know, sociopathic or cool behavior. In real life and
Star Wars the Old Republic. The writers are careful too,

(19:39):
never make it a pure fantasy as I As I said,
when you behave in that way, the characters react and
dislike you. You you develop a negative reputation, You don't
have as much help, and maybe you can develop enough
power that you can still you know, bulldoze over everyone else,
but you you are given up that that's pro social,

(20:02):
that relational, that communal, that community aspect of the universe
when you make those choices. So I think that it
is not something that you could just say, oh, yes,
this person loved shooting people in call of duty, therefore
they're going to be a school shooter, as is so

(20:23):
often the common narrative. I think that someone who is
thoughtful and just enjoys exploring what it's like to live
as someone who's given themselves over to their base desires.
You know, that's that's an experience that they know they're
not part of that. There's a there's a separation. You

(20:45):
are not the main character. You are not the sith Worre.
You are not a rogue Jedi knight who's given over
to the dark side. You're Ian or Andrew who's choosing
to explore that. You know, there's a detachment where it's
not just oh, I'm this person, I just enjoying murdering civilians.

Speaker 1 (21:03):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's a good point
that I mean, when you're playing a game, for the
most part, you're playing a character, like you're not playing yourself. Now,
obviously characters and archetypes have some relation to human psychology,
but at the same time, you aren't identifiable with every
I mean every every fiction that you act out. And
so I think that I agree that you know that

(21:26):
role playing in this universe that doesn't necessarily have real
world ramifications, that is a good way of psychologically dealing
with things of interest and interest can you know, take
a number of different manifestations. It can be good, it
can be bad, right told con says, don't don't study
the device of the enemy too too deeply. But at
the same time, like, I think that there can be
value in that. Is it's why people like watching the

(21:49):
you know, the like crime shows and you know that
really get into the mind of criminals and murderers and whatnot.
That there can be some value in that as long
as that inst doesn't turn into personal devotion, which I
think for most people isn't a serious threat. You know,
I in my recent Jedi Night playthrough, I decided that,

(22:12):
you know, it's always boring if you just go I
want to get light side points or I want to
get dark side points. And so I decided I was
I was gonna try to play like a pragmatist, where
you know, he's not necessarily a you know, full on
Jedi code, but also not necessarily a villainous monster. But
I noticed that as I started off on sort of

(22:32):
this this gray pragmatist uh sort of philosophy, that over
time it ended up becoming very very dark, which because
those those decisions became easier. And I think that that's
just one example of how engaging in fiction can reveal
something significant because you know, I don't I didn't set

(22:54):
out to be a dark Jedi. I set out to
be a pragmatist, but in that I became a dark Jedi,
which I think demonstrates something very true about the nature
of pragmatism of setting aside code, setting aside principles, and
saying I'm just gonna do what's gonna get the effects
that I want. And so I mean, that's just one
example of how I feel like the dark light dynamics
of this game demonstrate to something that I think it's

(23:16):
philosophically valid, philosophically true.

Speaker 2 (23:21):
One thing that I really like about every one of
the eight storylines is your companions almost always include someone
who has come over from the other side in some aspect.
The Jedi Knight, of course, has Cure Carson, who was
raised as a child of the Emperor, the Sith Emperor.

(23:42):
The Jedi Consul, actually Jedi Consular doesn't, but either the
Trooper you've got a defector from the Empire. The Sith
Inquisitor and the Sith Warrior both have Jedi apprentices who
you sort of kidnap, and you can either if you're
light side, you can kind of side with them and
form this reform Sith, or you can you know, turn

(24:02):
them into a dark Side apprentices like Bastile and Malik
in kotoor one you're smuggler. You've got your smuggler and
your Sith and guizor you run up against this shadow
Illuminami and so you have characters from that join your
party who tempt you towards greater power and greater self aggrandizement.

(24:26):
It's fascinating how your party is designed to allow you
to go in any direction, so you always have a
character who you can hang out with and have a
strong bond with, whether you choose to go towards the
light side or the dark side. On any faction, you've
got your scoundrels, your your sith converts, your Jedi converts,

(24:48):
your traders, your double agents. It's just really well constructed
how no class story is designed to funnel you along
and just be a good partisan. There's always someone who's
a little voice in your head, sort of like Kraya, like,
what are the consequences of this action? Are you really

(25:08):
serving the best interests of yourself or is this just
a facade that you've put up to please the people
around you.

Speaker 1 (25:17):
Yeah, that's a good point that there are very interesting
character dynamics. Now, I will say from a gameplay angle,
I don't really like that at some point, if I
remember correct, I don't think this is always the case,
but at some point they made it so every companion
can serve every role of you know, fighter, heeler, tank,
which just I don't know. I like when you have

(25:38):
to specialize, but nonetheless, that you do have this whole
cast of characters that you can choose from. And I
will say that generally speaking, they've really I don't know
if this is only for the like you know, one
to sixty level of content or not, but that they
really emphasize the story element. Like the game itself is
not difficult. It's actually incredibly easy for the most part,

(26:02):
at least in my experience. And you know, all the companions,
you can make them play a new role because there
really is this emphasis on the story that's being told,
whether that be the plot of your class or even
just the interpersonal story. And so you know, many ways
it is a different game depending on what companions you're
taking and what conversations that you have on on a
regular basis. And I think that you ill stated well

(26:23):
that just that different dynamic of you know, the different
voices that are in your head, so to speak, and
I do think that that's that's interesting. I guess I
should mention another fan favorite story, which is the uh,
the the Imperial Operative or agent, right, the Imperial Agent. That's
a really fun one. You're you're kind of like a

(26:46):
James bond Er, like maybe like Jason Bourne is a
better connection, and that for a time you're you're even
I only vgular remember it. I feel like at one
point you're you're like, don't you go from like fighting
that the you know, terrorists, the resistance to you, uh
doesn't like the empire turn on you or I can't
remember the detail.

Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yes. So the fascinating thing is the Sith Empire is
very much not a utopia, and as an agent, you're
constantly dealing with different Sith lords taking control of the
agency and fighting a different Sith lord with it. So
you become their tool, and eventually they get tired of
that and they dissolve your job, and so you're kind

(27:23):
of this rogue agent with no authority over here. You
just try to accomplish your missions. And then eventually a
Syth lord comes and says, no, we're gonna have a
new Syth intelligence. You're directly under my control again. But
one of the great things about that is you spend
a lot of time in a kind of George Smiley
versus Carla in you know those John Leclaury stories. There's

(27:45):
a republic agent who's kind of your opposite, and you
go back and forth trying to control them, and they
control you like sometimes literally they control you with you know,
Star Wars technology, And in the end you have a
choice whether you turn them into a double agent so
they give they become a Sith Empire agent, or you
can become a Republic agent helping them. And I love

(28:08):
just how you can make that choice as a as
an Imperial agents. Every single companion in the Imperial Agent
has a split loyalty, whether it's you've got a guy
who's half bug half human, You've got a guy who's
you know, loyal to the Chiss part of the Empire
versus the Sith part of the Empire. Just everything is

(28:28):
split loyalty. And I love the thematic consistency that you
get with that agent storyline, even though I actually put
it pretty low on the on the overall storylines. Uh,
there there's a lot to admire about it.

Speaker 1 (28:43):
Yeah, I don't know that's one of the strongest philosophically,
but I think it's one of the more interesting ones politically.
It's just it's just it is fun for that reason,
all those divided loyalties, different ways you can go with that. Yeah,
I don't know. I mean, where else do you want
to go with this.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
Well, one thing that I think is kind of funny
and I if the Old Republic had been made a
few years later, I think that the bounty Hunter and
Smuggler would have been their own faction, the fringe faction,
because you see a lot of games like the current
Star Wars Outlaws that are about the fringe rather than
being necessarily imperial or rebellion or Republic. And I really

(29:25):
like both of those storylines because you get to be
a more normal person and you see how the choices
of the Sith that the Republic impact you as a
person just trying to live your life with your own
goals that aren't explicitly political or religious. So one of
my favorite things is you're a smuggler just wandering around
on tatooed and a Jedi comes and you get to

(29:47):
see them helping people and you see their selflessness, and
it's kind of a fun what happens if the normal
person meets Superman kind of moment, and there's there's a
real spiritual thing, a real inspiration thing about how that
Jedi is portrayed and how you as a smuggler who
tend to be much more. Oh, I'm out for my
own I want my own ship, on my own life.

(30:07):
I lived by my own code. I'm not bound by anything.
And you see someone who has dedicated themselves to this
ideal saves people, and it's it's a really fun kind
of the spiritual breaking forth into the mundane moment for
me when I was playing the game.

Speaker 1 (30:25):
Yeah, I think that's that's a fun element of any
of these Star Wars stories where the Jedi Sith stuff
is kind of on the periphery, whether we're talking about
you know, your I don't know Rogue one or even
your Solo where Darth Maaltra's up at the end. It's like,
you know, the these major force powers are kind of

(30:47):
on the sidelines. It makes them more significant when they
do show up. And I think that that the Old
Republic deals really well with those non force stories, the
the the Trooper, the smuggler, the agent, and the bounty hunter. Yeah,

(31:07):
that I think that they did deal with that really
well in a way that highlights the spiritual dynamics by
not focusing so much on the spiritual dynamics.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
Yeah, I completely agree. I think that as a Christian,
of course, we have the ideal in romans of the
magistrate is put in place to punish the evil and
reward the good. And because so often even in the
non Jedi or Sith characters, you become sort of a magistrate,

(31:37):
or you become part of the one of the big
political entities. You have to make those decisions of what
is the evil, how do I punish it? How do
I reward the good? How do I be the good?
And I think all those questions are really rewarding when
you think them through. As a Christian, even if you
choose to go down the evil side, you see the

(31:59):
results of as a sciety that has chosen to reward
the evil and punish the good.

Speaker 1 (32:05):
Yeah, I think that that's very true, and that you know,
you're you are regularly forced matter what side you're dealing with,
you're regularly forced to deal with those questions of you know,
how do we relate mercy and justice? You know, when
do we forgive and strive for reconciliation? And when do
we execute the sword right? When when do we bring

(32:26):
down judgment? And I think we have to recognize that
there is a place for both, not even that those
are always mutually exclusive, but at the same time it
can be it can be difficult, and I think that
even if you're role playing a character, even asking the
question like how would my character engage with this, I

(32:46):
think that can lead to some interesting thought exercises regarding
what is good and evil? What what is fitting? Right?
That's that's a word that you know, I'm right now,
I'm reading a lot of the mediev for a course
that I'm teaching, and and someone talks about this a
lot about you know, what what's fitting. That's a good

(33:08):
way of approaching kind of what is good, what seems
to be most fitting, and that can be interesting thing
to engage with in these moral scenarios that the game provides.

Speaker 2 (33:18):
I think there's a very interesting blend of the medieval
and the modern in the Old Republic because it is set,
you know, three thousand and seven hundred years before the
prequel era, and so it has got that patina of
the far past. Of course, you've got your spaceships, you've
got your hyperspace, you've got your your blasters, but you

(33:39):
also have a real sense of how these these roving
bands of Jedi knights and Sith warriors meeting out justice
can could impact a society in a way that isn't
quite the same as your organized police forces, and I
would say that that also has application in the the

(34:01):
prequel era. And then when after the movies, you've got
Luke Skywacker rebuilding the Jedi Order and the Old Expanded Universe,
and you you still have that Night Monastery medieval context,
and so I think it's it's interesting. I'm wondering if
you have seen any other parallels between the medieval era
that you're reading from and Star Wars in general, but

(34:21):
specifically the Old Republic.

Speaker 1 (34:23):
Yeah, that's it's an interesting points between question. And I
do think that that that lack of institutionary justice or
institutional justice is something that carries through one hand, you
definitely see it in that medieval kind of uh format,
but then it also carried over very well to the

(34:46):
Western feel of say the Mandalorian, and it's it's interesting.
I never really thought about some of the connections that
can be made between the medieval world and the wild West,
like in both of them, a lot of times you're
i mean lacking clear institutional guidelines, and you have people,
to the best of their ability, either trying to enact

(35:08):
honor themselves or see what they can get away with,
and so I do think that you definitely see some
strong elements of that in Star Wars storytelling and even
in the Old Republic, and I need to think with that.
I feel like more can be done on the connections
between the medieval world and the old American West, which
I had just never even made those connections before, but
I think something interesting could be done there.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
Yeah, both are very liminal stories. Both are about a
space that either civilization has retreated from, you know, the
fall of Rome and the way the troops have left
and all the people are left with, you know, the ideals.
That's where King Arthur comes from, is trying to uphold
the Romano ideals of civilization and justice for all that

(35:53):
a code of laws versus your roving bands of mercenaries
and warriors who just I have the power, I will enact,
my will haunt you. And I think that's exactly what
the Wild West is as well. It's this place that
people came from civilizations, so they have this memory of it,
but there's no one there enforcing it. So are you

(36:15):
going to enforce it? Are you just gonna suck up
to the powers that be?

Speaker 1 (36:21):
Yeah, that's interesting, And of course in Mallories telling of Arthur,
he actually conquers room, which shows that we're even even
surpassing the power of what we came from. That has
no real connection to what we're talking about, but I
just felt like throwing it in there.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
I mean, if you're a sith warr, you could definitely
come the course off and cause some trouble.

Speaker 1 (36:42):
Right, Yeah, yeah, I'm kind of stumbling over. I just
haven't played the scheme as recently enough to really get
into it. I mean, I don't know, is there anywhere
any other dynamics you feel like we haven't explored that
you think are worth getting into.

Speaker 2 (36:56):
Well, I think part of the problem with the Old Republic,
part of the reason why so few people really play
it is it's a bit intimidating. I think part of
it is that the multiplayer aspect, which I'm hoping that
people who listen to this can secure and see, you
can play this as a single player. You don't need
to have a party, you don't need to play at
specific times. You can just play it as a satisfying

(37:18):
single player sequel to the Old Republic. But I think
also one of the intimidating factors is the sheer size
eight game plays, and as you say, each one of
them has the kind of depth. You have five companions
for every storyline. You know, that's forty characters. And you

(37:40):
know in Kotor you can remember your Joe Lee's, you
can remember your HK forty seven's, you can remember your
your VSUS Mars, your disciples, your handmaidens, all these characters.
There's only you know, ten or twelve of them, but
forty of them. It's hard to kind of pick out
which one sticking out. And now I have my own
that I remember. I really love the When you're the

(38:02):
Syth Inquisitor, you kind of kidnap a Jedi apprentice because
her family has a line to a Sith ghost. There's
this whole Sith ghost plotline that you're following. And I
actually got into the game because I found out one
of my favorite actresses from a television show was playing
that character of the Jedi apprentice. So that character sticks

(38:25):
out for me particularly, But other people have played who
didn't have that connection, and they thought other characters are
much more engaging and out of forty characters, Plus, there's
a bunch of additional characters that show up in the
endgame content, you can get a bunch of additional companions
with their own storylines. It is kind of harder to

(38:45):
have some of them stand out. You can have your
Lord Scourage, a Sith who hates the Emperor who joins
the Jedi Night Like, that's something that sticks out because
it's a bit different. But there's probably seven well, if
you do Sith and Republic, there's probably fourteen Sith or
Republic military companions because nearly everyone has a military liaison

(39:08):
no matter what character you're playing. So how do those
stand out? Can I can make my arguments. You've got
your Jingo Droid was the trooper who's just hilariously propagandistic
and constantly thirsting for the blood of the Empire. You've
got your your your defector from the Empire who's sort
of like a prisoner on parole, and there's a really

(39:29):
interesting tension there that you can either support her or
you can kind of marginalize her and be mean to
her because she's an Imperial. Like the lieutenant who's the
companion in the Jedi Consul, how does he stand out?
He doesn't really, He's just a Republic soldier who you
have a fun time with. So, Yeah, I think it's

(39:51):
really the size that kind of can hamper these discussions
because unless someone is really deep into these storylines and
has played them relatively recently. Now, I did a rundown
of all the companions yesterday trying to prep for this,
so I kind of have them fresh in my memory.
But even I'm thinking about that Jedi consoler, I don't
remember him. I know he's there. I even had a

(40:13):
romance with him as the Jedi Consuler, but I remember
what makes him stick out. So I think the size,
that the sheer number of characters you're encountering does kind
of hamper discussion on a granular level for a lot
of people.

Speaker 1 (40:29):
Yeah, I feel like, well, you know, I feel like
we're doing baswall as we came for a broad overview.
I feel like that, you know, to really give this
is due, you need like eight episodes you really have right,
or you recently played through or at least reviewed each
storyline because to each of the individually, and you know
they're they're capable of doing that. I mean, there's so

(40:50):
much that we want to cover that well, we're not
gonna do that here, but I think that that could
definitely be done, and I do encourage people too if
you haven't done it, I mean, pick up this game.
It's it's not very difficult to play through, but just
focusing on the story elements, I think that it's worth
going through each of them. Yeah, yeah, yes. Also you
can play for free now it's easier and you get

(41:12):
you know, various helps or bonuses for giving a subscription,
but you don't have to write. So you can literally
play it for free, go through each of these class stories,
and I think that it's it's going to be enjoyable,
and I think it's good. It's worth doing, even though
I can't looking back, you know, however, many years later
since I played, you know, I can't get into the

(41:33):
specifics of the things that happen, but I do at
the time, it was enriching. And I feel like good
stories can be enriching even if you don't clearly remember
them consciously. I think that simply participating in them themselves
can be a good thing. Yeah. So, I mean, I
don't have much else on my part. Is there anything

(41:55):
else that you wanted to bring up?

Speaker 2 (41:58):
I would really put in a plug for those non Jedi,
non Sith storylines. I think that they really do have
a lot of value in fleshing out the world and
giving you additional moral perspectives. You've got your Mandalorian perspective,
You've got your Secret to Lulabity perspective. You're at the
perspective of someone who's kind of crushed down by Sith

(42:19):
bureaucracy and Sith ambition. I think all of those have
a spiritual element that Christians can really get a lot from,
even though they're not directly dealing with that light side
dark side dynamic.

Speaker 1 (42:34):
Yeah, absolutely, I definitely echo that that. I think that
those are some of the most fun, most engaging stories.
And I say this to somebody who like generally I
mentioned this in previous conversations. If I'm engaging with Star Wars,
I like having the for stuff front and center, typically
because to me, that's what Star Wars is. But at
the same time, I feel like this game in particular

(42:54):
does very well with the non force user stories. So
I would definitely echo that. But yeah, I think that
I'm content wrapping it there. I definitely appreciate you carrying
much of this conversation, and next time we will move

(43:15):
into something non Star Wars y, well, I'll to narrow
down exactly what that is. But Ian, thank you. Are
you joining us for the New Hope conversation?

Speaker 2 (43:28):
I believe so.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
All right, fantastic, Well then I will see you this evening.
Thanks for stopping by. Thanks all right, thanks for listening
to that. I hope that you enjoyed that, and I
do recommend that you play through that game at some
point if you haven't done so already. Now to continue
our Mythic Mind Star Wars series, I encourage you to
hop over to the main Mythic Mind podcast for a
conversation of a New Hope, which that should be coming

(43:52):
out on June tenth over on the main Mythic Mind podcast,
and then I also have an exciting announcement to make
over there at that time. But for next time on
this podcast, I think that we're going to do a
short series, maybe a couple episodes on Red Dead Redemption two,
which I recently played through, just absolutely incredible game, blew
me away, and I really look forward to getting into

(44:14):
some of that with you. I think I'm going to
do one episode by myself giving my own analysis, and
then we'll also have some kind of group conversation about
it as well. And if you are enjoying these conversations,
you like these early episodes of this podcast, and you
want to see it keep going on for a long
time to come, then I very much welcome your support
over on Patreon. And the reality is that we're mythic

(44:36):
mind is moving in so many different directions. I personally
am moving in so many different directions right I've got
these multiple podcasts, I'm teaching courses institutionally as well as independently.
I'm currently writing a book that I need to get
done soon on Tolkien, and there are other books that
I want to that I want to write, and I
just I literally am not going to be able to
keep doing all these different things without the funding that

(44:57):
allows me to buy the time to engage in these
sorts of pursuits. And so if you want to see
me continue to do this, you want to see these
game conversations move on for a long time. You want
to see the literature and the movie conversations that are
happening elsewhere. You want to see these things keep going
in as many directions as are going, and more and
further than the going. Then you can support me over

(45:18):
on Patreon at Patreon dot com. Slash Mythic Mind. Become
a patron of any level, even five dollars a month
is helpful and allows you to participate in whichever these
conversations interests you. And of course if you can invest
more in that, then that's always appreciated and will come
with additional perks. And if you don't want to become
a recurring patron, but you do just want to throw
a few dollars my way as a tip, then you

(45:38):
can click on the buy me a coffee link in
the show notes. But whether you are able to support
me financially or you just continue to listen, I appreciate
your company and I really look forward to where we're
going from here. Until next time, God speed. The Elder

(46:00):
Scrolls in Philosophy a six week course beginning in September
twenty twenty five. I don't play many video games these days,
but there are certain titles that have stuck with me,
enchanting the mind of my youth and never entirely fading away.
One of the chiefs among these titles is The Elder Scrolls,
namely Marowin Oblivion and Skyrim. The level of artistry, mythology

(46:23):
and lore of this universe is vast and provides a
strong representative for asking the question as to how video
games might relate to literature as an art form, Where
might it rise to such a level, where must it
fall short? And what unique advantages does it possess. For
this eight week study, we'll be seeking to answer these
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(46:45):
on content related to Marow and Oblivion and Skyrim. Will
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considering the philosophical implications of character creation and formation in
an open ended series such as this, and will be
looking at the relationship between in game religion, lore, and
ideas with our primary world philosophical and religious concepts. Each

(47:07):
week will include one to two videos addressing these topics,
ongoing discord conversations, and live meetings. You are also encouraged
to spend at least a little time playing one of
these titles each week as a launching pad for conversation.
Join us in Tamreil that we might better understand our
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(47:29):
or you can access all courses that begin during your
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Get that Tier three annual subscription, and I'll give you
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