5 - Red Dead Redemption 2 (feat. Master Samwise & Jeremy Kee) - Mythic Mind Games

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello, and welcome to Mythic Mind Games, where we discuss
video games through the lens of the Christian humanities. I'm
doctor Andrew Snyder, and I'm glad that you're here. Hey, then,
welcome back to the latest episode of Mythic Mind Games.
Today I am joined by Jeremy Key and Master Sam Wise,

(00:26):
both of whom have been on the main Mythic Mind
podcast before, although it's been a little while, and we
are here to discuss Red Dead Redemption two. Just an
incredible game, as I've talked about some in the last episode,
really focusing specifically in on Arthur Morgan. Today we're going
to have more of a broad reaching conversation about what

(00:47):
makes this game so great and a good why why
provides good evidence for the argument that games can serve
a role. This is the very least analogous to good literature.
And if you enjoy this conversation and see more of
this happen on a regular basis, than you can head
over to Patreon dot com slash Mythic Mind to lend
your support and also to get involved in these conversations

(01:08):
because patrons get open invitations to any of these chats
we have on this podcast, the main Mythic Mind podcast
or Mythic Mind Movies and shows. But for not, let's
go ahead and get right into our conversation on Red
Dead Redemption two. Right. Hello, Hello, Jeremy. I'm glad that
to see that you dressed for the occasion.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Oh I'm underdressed.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
No, no, see, I'm a text and we just dressed
like this natural.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
Man. I should plan to h head on this. Welcome
to the latest episode of Mythic Mind Games, as we're
gonna continue our conversation on Red Dead Redemption two, and
this time I'm joined by Jeremy Key and Master Sam Wise,
both of whom have been on the main podcast before,
although it's been a little while, especially for for Jeremy

(01:56):
and so I think it'd be helpful just to start
off quick review, brief introduction, whatever you want to say
about yourself, whatever you want to plug. Jeremy, you want
to go first.

Speaker 3 (02:06):
Yeah, sure. So my name is Jeremy Jeremy Key. I
don't actually know what my Twitter handle is, but I
would I would I would plug that if I knew
what it was. But I'm on Twitter and people seem
to enjoy me from time to time. I'm a therapist
in Dallas, born and raised Texan, which is one of

(02:27):
the reasons I think I'm on this podcast, but also
relevant to the podcast, a great appreciator of the West
and the storytelling power of video games, and so here
we are to discuss that there's a lot more to me,
but I think that that's the most relevant bit for now.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
All Right, fantastic Sam.

Speaker 2 (02:47):
All right, I'm Sam.

Speaker 4 (02:48):
I run the Master Samwi's channel on YouTube, which recently
made a video about Reddad two, specifically the character journey
of Arthur Morgan back in January February of this year.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
I think I played the game for.

Speaker 4 (03:01):
The first time last year, and yeah, a truly fantastic story.
I'm not really a Western guy typically. I'm a born
and raised Minnesotan. My mom is my mom is Texan,
and you grew up in North Carolina, so I've got
a little bit of that blood in me. But yeah,
I mean, it's just a fantastically told story, beautiful game,
and I'm excited to talk about it more.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
Good. Yeah, I should should watched that video before this conversation.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
I'm glad you did.

Speaker 4 (03:27):
I'm glad you played the game, and you know didn't
didn't watch it before that get to go in fresh.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
Yeah, yeah, And so I'm experiencing a lot of games fresh.
I've mentioned a few times in these parts that I
really took a break from video games for like a
decade or so, just doing other things again of over
correcting perhaps for playing too many games my youth, but
now stuffing back in. I'm just discovering for the first
time some of these incredible stories, and Red Dead two

(03:56):
definitely is up there in the realm of incredible stories.
In the last episode on this podcast, I did a
solo episode connecting Arthur Morgan with the death of Ivan
Ilitch by Tolstoy, which I think that there are some
strong thematic connections there, as you deal with a bad
guy who yearns for nobility, yearns for goodness, and and

(04:18):
the way that he has to come to terms with
that through wrestling with his immortality. And I should say
that there will be spoilers nature of what we do
here for anyone listening, So starting off just generally, I mean,
obviously we we all think this is a great story,
it's a great game. What do you think looking at
just the the esthetics here, what is it about the

(04:39):
West what is it about Westerns that that tends to
draw in especially the American mythological spirit, because it's really
the cowboy, I would say, is the quintessential American folk hero,
mythological hero. He is the closest we have to the
the the European night is the American boy, I would say,

(05:01):
what is it about the West? About Westerns that tends
to draw us in? Jeremy, I feel like you're you're
probably equipped to say something about this.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
Yeah, yeah, And I'm I'm not gonna I'm not gonna
make this political other than to point out that at
the moment of this recording, there is a lot going
on with a certain US Senator wanting to sell federal land,
particularly out west, and there's a lot of opposition to that.
And so to your question, Andrew, I think the reason,

(05:31):
or one of the reasons for that is because, at
least in modern times, the West represents a way of
life that we don't live anymore. We live in most
mostly we live in in cities or towns where very
modern everything is is technologized and plugged in and digital

(05:52):
and connected and all these things. And and you know,
I live in Dallas, ninth largest city in the country,
and there's it's very claustrophobic, right, everything is concrete and glass,
and I can't even I can see about ten percent
of the night sky from my apartment balcony, which really

(06:13):
bothers me because I know that there's a lot more
than just that little ten percent that I can see.
And so when you when you think about the West,
when you go out west, when you watch a Western
movie or play a Western video game, you're confronted with
with wide open vistas and wild, untamed land. And you know,

(06:36):
that's just that's today. If you go back into the
idea of the of the wild West, right, it was
truly a lawless time, right, it was it was people
just going out there and figuring it out as they went.
And so I think what what speaks to what speaks
to us about the West is just that there's something

(06:58):
foreign about it compare to how we live today. But
there's also something beautiful or romantic about it, right, the
idea of of packing it all up and just heading
out west. You know, even in even in more modern times. Uh,
you know, back in the sixties and seventies, a lot
of young people did that as a means of like

(07:20):
their early adulthood, uh, right of passage, right like going going,
and just becoming a wanderer for a while, which is
a very modern take on the Western idea. And so,
I don't know, there's something appealing about the freedom of
wide open spaces and in the the uh the way

(07:43):
that it stokes our imagination. I don't know how much
time either of you've spent out West, but when you're
when you're wandering through Colorado and you're you're at the
base of a of a fourteen or you know, you're
looking up at this, at this huge, massive land that
seemed just impossibly big, you can't help but feel very small.

(08:04):
And some people find that very uncomfortable, but I think
a lot of people find that very refreshing. It takes
away a lot of the sense of I have to
figure everything out. The world is on my shoulders. It's like, no,
it's not. You're actually a very small piece of a
much larger a much larger world, a much larger natural

(08:28):
thing that you are a part of, but a small
part of it. So I'll stop it there for now
and throw it over to sand. But those are my thoughts.

Speaker 4 (08:37):
Yeah, I think you touched on a lot of what
I well, you've touched a lot more than I would
have said on that. So there's an interesting book which
I haven't finished reading called Red Dead's History. It's by
a history professor called named Torres the Olson, I believe,
and he's clearly of a different political elk than than
I am, and that reflects in how he views his history,

(08:58):
but does have a lot of interesting points that he makes.
Where As, like, as an industrialization, everything started to set in,
especially now in our modern era where I work in technology, right,
So I work at a keyboard and with screens both
my job and my hobby, you know, making YouTube videos.
I work with all this tech, and there is this

(09:21):
kind of innate sense, anat urge almost in me to
like want to work my hands.

Speaker 2 (09:25):
So when I get to.

Speaker 4 (09:26):
Do a little house project, whether it's just putting up
blinds or you know, painting something or you know, doing
a little bit yard work, it feels good, right, it
feels natural, It feels like this.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
I needed that.

Speaker 4 (09:38):
And as even in like you know, the setting of
Red Dead two in eighteen ninety nine, things were starting
to move away from that. Firearms, for example, were being
manufactured in factories on mass right, they were revolvers were
no longer unique artisanal pieces. Right, it was just like
you know now you was you know, Colt was manufacturing
them by the hundreds thousands, and so.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
They kind of touched on this.

Speaker 4 (10:03):
We talk about, you know, the romanticization of of of
the West is the time when men worked with their hands,
when men were you know, free in a sense, you
could explore and wander and you just you got to
do traditional man stuff. That was all you had now
you could do really and so like there is a
little bit of a you know, identity crisis within you know, masculinity,

(10:25):
because it's just like, well, this is what we've been
doing for centuries, working with our hands and everything, and
it's all of a sudden it's shifted again. That began
with the Industrial Revolution, I really think, and kind of
continue through uh through today. So I think that's part
of it. The romantization of the cowboy is interesting because
cowboys were in reality just kind of like glorified sheep herders,

(10:48):
except they were you know, they're men, not not not dogs,
and they're they're wrangling cattle. They're just getting cows from
one place to the next. Eventually get them to Chicago
or whatever so they could be shipped off to the
East coast to be slaughtered. They weren't anything really all
that special. They just spent a lot of time out
on the open field. And it reminds me of like
the you know, the Eastern you know kind of ideal man,

(11:13):
especially in Japanese, is the samurai. Right, every people have
the glorified ideas of samurai and they're very romanticized in fiction,
and then you read about the actual history of samurai
and like, no, they were just kind of they were
largely bullies. They were men in power and with swords
who could do whatever they wanted without really any repercussions

(11:34):
as long as they were doing those awful things to
people beneath them in status. And it is so, but
they are you know, glorified or you know, romanticized because
of this, you know, suppose a code of honor that
they lived according to. And I think you see the
same sort of thing with the Cowboy, where you take
the aspect of it that we kind of long for,

(11:54):
Like Jeremy said that that freedom, that freedom, that open country,
that experience of vastness, and you're kind of focus in
on that, and you know some other aspects like theyre
supposed you know, their toughness, there are no nonsense attitude,
and you kind of leave out the bits where they
really were just kind of lowly workers that just rode

(12:15):
horses with a bunch of cows from one place to
the next.

Speaker 2 (12:18):
So yeah, I think that's all end there now.

Speaker 3 (12:21):
And I had one more thing just to just to
go along with that. I found this quote just happenstantially
this morning that I think is is relevant, So I'm
going to read it now comes from a Teddy Roosevelt.
We know Teddy Roosevelt, We like Teddy Roosevelt. He wrote
or said, I'm not sure which, but he communicated the West,

(12:44):
with its boundless prairies, its mighty rivers, and its rugged mountains,
is a land of infinite possibilities, where the strong thrive
and the weak are tested. And so I think that,
you know, going back to what me and Sam have said,
I think that it's you know, the infinite possibilities. You
don't know what you're getting when you go out west, right,

(13:06):
and that's a very it's a very scary, scary thing,
and a lot of people fold under that pressure. But
you know, kind of like like Frank Snatcher said about
New York City, if I can make it here, I
can make it anywhere. That's kind of the same out West,
or at least it was back when it was untamed.
If you can if you can carve a living for

(13:27):
yourself out there, you can do it anywhere. And I
think that that's that idea still exists. I think it
still pervades the popular imagination of the West, that it
is rugged and it's it's wild and untamed. But again,
there's something going back to what Sam said, there's something

(13:49):
very appealing about just like rolling up their sleeves and
getting to it and seeing what you can put together.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah, there's a lot to comment on there. First of all,
I'll say and thanks for disenchanting us from the great
American mythology. But to that point in particular about Okay,
what were the cowboys really like on a on a
regular basis, I think it's natural that as the the

(14:18):
fact of of something, the historical reality starts to well
fade into history, that our imagination naturally begins to gravitate
up toward the ideal, towards the archetype. Because there are
certain things that we all long for. When we think
about the European night, normally we think of this great,
you know, noble warrior, which I mean, I'm sure there
were such nights, but that obviously is not not not

(14:41):
all knights were good guys, put it that way. But
we we tend to think about them as the ideal
virtuous warrior because we have certain certain desires, certain inklings
of what human nature is supposed to be, what the
ideal person is. So naturally our imagination starts to move
these historical realities up into this realm of myth, this

(15:03):
realm of archetypes. And really that's that's what a myth
is it. Carl Carl Jung says that the myth is
a it's like a public dream, and dreams themselves are
often well they're there are our desires for what could be,
maybe what should be, what we want to be, And
to what Jeremy's talking about about the West being just

(15:25):
this brand, this big, expansive place that helps to break
us out of our claustrophobia.

Speaker 3 (15:33):
You know.

Speaker 1 (15:33):
It makes me think of the the major differences between
pre modern and postmodern thought, and that in postmodern thought
we always talk about how we want to contextualize reality
within ourselves. What does this mean for me? Right, we
contextualize reality within myself? You know, I'm going to speak
my truth that that sort of talk. Whereas if you

(15:55):
look at the pre Moderns, for the most part, they're
not going to talk about this language of you know,
live your truth, of of contextualized reality within yourself. They
can talk about how do we contextualize ourselves within reality?
Right when you go into the ancient Greeks, go into
Plato going to Aristotle, like, as much as they may
have some disagreements with each other, they begin with the
presupposition that there's such a thing as capital l reality,

(16:16):
that there is a good that I didn't come up with,
but that I have a responsibility to contextualize myself within.
And that's how you grow in virtue, That's how you
get closer to being the ideal person. And I think
that's fundamentally true, which is why even the most radical
postmodern that when they experience a sunset, look out over

(16:37):
the ocean, maybe even experience a good storm. I mean
I ask my students sometimes, like, you know, how many
of you as long as you're in a safe place
so you're relatively safe. How many of you enjoy like
a really good storm, And most people, most students will
raise their hands and say, yeah, I get it. And
if I ask them why, they'll usually say because it
just kind of makes me feel small, which sounds like

(16:59):
it should be a bad thing, but it's actually a
very human thing. It's something that we long for because
it's the way that we are supposed to be. And
so I think that there is something very grounding about
getting outside of our hyper controlled environments that most of
us experience. Right. We live in the safety of society.
We live in the safety of our own lives, which

(17:20):
as much as we're able to, we can kind of
manage and shape the way we want to. But when
you just get out into this idea of the expanse, well,
suddenly now you're not in control, and it's potentially a
very good thing. So I think that that I think
that's at least in part why the West, the American West,

(17:41):
has such a strong mythos for us.

Speaker 4 (17:44):
Yeah, the idea of awe is something that we all
have this deep longing for awe and wonder, right, and
as where we get the words awesome and wonderful, and
I know that you have a tweet that still sticks
in my mind to this day Andrew about like people.

Speaker 2 (17:59):
I think it's maybe a.

Speaker 4 (18:00):
Wolf where someone, someone or something is described as awesome
and your students are like, why are they using such
a mundane word? And you said something to the effect of,
why have you like made this incredible word so, you know,
so mundane, Like we should not take this word as
that because you know, awesome is you know, inspiring. Aw
which is this incredibly I don't even want to say primal.

(18:21):
It was like god given feeling for us as we are,
as we experience like the just incredible depth and height
and width of like the created universe, right, like all
in wonder are supposed to ultimately point us to God.
And like that's what we experience in that in our
smallest in the middle of the thunderstorm, where it's just wow,

(18:42):
Like it gives you the sense like there is like
I am so small and I like something is so
bigue like what is that? It really just it kind
of draws you out of yourself, right, And so much
of postmodern I thought you have said most most things
you see on you know, most modern writing or whatever
is so focused on the self and just looking at yourself,

(19:03):
and it's it doesn't look it doesn't look outside. And
that's what like experiences like that force you to do.
And I think, you know, relating this to the game,
I mean that that is the experience that you get
just riding through the open country, and I think it's
a large part of the reason why the developers let
you just do that, where you just spend time riding
from place to place and experiencing the absolute vastness of

(19:26):
the world and the enormous amount of possibilities that you.

Speaker 2 (19:30):
Have, all the thousands of little interactions you could do.
It's it's awesome.

Speaker 3 (19:35):
Yeah, yeah, I'm I don't want to I don't want
to push the conversation too quickly, but there is that
moment early on in the game where you know you're
you're out of the opening area, your ad the tutorial
era area, and you get to Horseshoe Bend, right, and
that's the that's where the game really opens up. And

(19:56):
now it's truly an open world and you can go
anywhere and you can do whatever you want. And there's
this I'm sure you both went there, there's this this
overlook in the camp. Uh there in Horseshoe Bend where
it's you know, it's right on the cliff and down
there is the bend from which it gets its name.

(20:17):
But it's just it's such a view. And up to
this point the game has been very again, very confined.
You're up in the mountains and it's snowing and so
visibility is limited and again using the word claustrophobic because
it you know, everyone's just huddled together to stay to
stay warm and survived. And then you get down there
into the into the plane, you know, and it's just

(20:42):
the game literally and mechanically just opens up. And that's
when the player really gets a sense, you know, going
back to what you were saying, Sam about AWE to
the extent that you can experience AWE in a in
a virtually curated experience, that's when the player first gets it,

(21:02):
because that's when the player first really sees like this
game is wide open, which again that's the west. Right
that moment, there's a I don't know if either you
played Breath of the Wild, one of the Zelda games,
but early on in Breath of the while he link
he comes out from this cave and it's at the

(21:23):
very beginning he stands on this cliff and it just
shows all of the map and it's this very cinematic
moment that's when the player realizes like, oh wow, there's
going like there's a lot of adventure to be had here, right,
and there's there's a very you know, it's not quite
as curated, but there's that very similar moment in Red

(21:43):
Dead and it just it is bracing, right, It just
makes you stop for a moment and just kind of like,
even though it's a video game, you kind of want
to just stop and take pictures and look around and
imagine the possibilities. So maybe that's what the West is
and it is just one big possibility.

Speaker 1 (22:02):
Yeah, I think that sudden realization of possibility, right, you
come out of And I'll admit I was getting kind
of tired of the introduction is is it's very a
very slow intro, which does Yeah, I guess I can
appreciate what they're doing story you know wise, and they're
they're taking you by the hand toward teaching how to

(22:22):
play the game, but it's so incredibly slow. But just
like you know, whenever you're you're walking around camp. I
get so frustrated with how slowly he walks. But that aside,
uh to to your point that that that moment of
entering into expansiveness past the intro territory. Uh, that this

(22:44):
is something you see at least in in a number
of video games that are kind of in similar space
genre wise, like for example, but That's it does this
a lot where you leave the opening area, you know,
the prison and oblivion, the cave in sky, the vault
and fallout, and there's just like this moment where everything
is bright and expansive and now suddenly you can just

(23:06):
go wherever you want to. It's a way of just
awakening you to possibility, to the glory of exploration. And
I think that something similar does happen in read that,
and I think that there's something good about that that
And this is part of my ongoing thesis of doing
this whole project and talking about games at all, you know,

(23:28):
as somebody who's primarily had a literary and philosophical focus
for a number of years, that I think there's something
good about enchantment. There's something good about wonder, There's something
good about even if it is in this confined design
space there's something good about the possibilities of exploration, fourteen
year identity, deciding what kind of character you are, because

(23:50):
all of those things, if you're engaging in them the
right way. You can engage in video games or anything
the wrong way. But if you're engaging it in the
right way, I think it makes you more of a
curious kind of a person who's more given over to
to wonder and so to just really echoing what Jeremy said,
I think that that is a good moment. It's a
good launching place too, to the wonder and enchantment of

(24:13):
this game has to offer.

Speaker 3 (24:15):
Yeah, there are not a lot of people know this
about me, but years ago I actually wrote essays about
video games for an upstart video game website. I have
no idea what's become of it since, but one of
the essays I do remember writing was about The Breath
of the Wild, and it was about this very idea

(24:37):
of of enchantment and and encouraging curiosity. I wrote about
about the the environmental storytelling in that particular game. How
how so much of the story was just told by
the ruins that you wander through or the towns that
were that populated the map, and how all of this

(25:00):
was based on Kyoto, Japan, which is where the developers
and the writers were from, how they based the map
off of Kyoto, and and it just it encourages again,
and it encourages that awareness that the world is a
lot bigger than my bedroom or my office or even

(25:21):
my home. The world is a very big place, and
there's a lot to explore and to do and to
see and to try. And you know, Red Dead I
think does an excellent job of that because you know,
not only is the story wildly engaging, and I'm sure
we'll get into that and do course, but just the

(25:43):
world itself, there's so many, so many characters to interact
with and things to do. And do you want to
be a good guy, you want to be a bad guy,
you want to be just kind of middle of the road.
You have this total choice. And again I'm gonna hand
on this all morning. The idea of the West is

(26:03):
what are you going to do? You know, you're going
to get out there, who are you going to become?
What are you going to build? And I think that
Red Dead does a good job of that, not only
in a video game perspective, but also for people with
eyes to see and ears to hear. I think it's
a good way of reminding the player that, like, there's
a real world out there, you can live it, and

(26:23):
to a large degree, you can choose how you live
it too. Do you want to be the good guy
the bad guy? Do you just want to be an MPC? Yeah?
So I really like what you're doing with video games
because I think that there's a lot of value that
can be taken from them, and I think that Red
Dead is a good way too, is a good carrier

(26:45):
of that value.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
Yeah, and maybe at this point, now that we've done
we've talked about the general esthetic, the general experience, I
mean we should talk about the story a little bit.
So I think it's a great story. You could it
could easily be turned into a movie. What what about
the story? You can get as general specific as you
want to. What about this story is compelling to or?

(27:09):
Maybe I should ask did you guys play Red Dead one?

Speaker 4 (27:13):
I have not yet, It's on my list, my like
very it'll probably be like the next game that I play.

Speaker 1 (27:19):
Okay, then we're all in the same boat there. I
was gonna ask if anyone can share any insights on
that connection there, But okay, fair enough.

Speaker 4 (27:24):
I don't think there's a whole lot because Arthur's does
not feature at all in Red Dead one.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
It's just John.

Speaker 4 (27:30):
I mean, I think there's other members of the gang
who you've seen Red Dead two that carry over to
Red Dead one.

Speaker 2 (27:35):
Because Red Dead too is the prequel.

Speaker 3 (27:37):
I'm familiar with the story, and uh, and yeah, it's
a a sequel to the prequel that would become Red
Dead And there's all from what I From what I know,
it seems like there are a lot of seeds in
the first one that are that are realized or that
grow in the second. Yeah, that's the extent of mine.

Speaker 4 (28:01):
And I know that the John Marston was a very
beloved protagonist. And when the release trailer or the you know,
the whatever trailer dropped for Red Did two and it
was revealed that you're gonna be playing as this Arthur
Morgan guy, all the fans of the original game.

Speaker 2 (28:16):
Were like, who's this? I want to play as John?
What are we doing? Like what's going on?

Speaker 4 (28:21):
And then you know, they played the game and went okay,
and yeah, no that was that was.

Speaker 2 (28:25):
I like, I like this guy. Yeah, never mind, I was.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
Now playing Redhead two. First, I feel like if I
played Redd one, I wouldn't be Arthur Morgan. Yeah, absolutely well,
which obviously can't work for for obvious reasons. So okay,
So just focusing on on Red Dead two. What what
about the story is generally as specifically as you want
to get with it. What makes this a compelling story
to you?

Speaker 4 (28:52):
I mean, the title is right, it's right there in
the name. It's a story about redemption. And I really
love that they I mean they handled the way they do. Again,
there are different endings to this story, right, so you
know how how redeemed you You want your Arthur to be?

Speaker 2 (29:07):
Right? My Arthur was max honor.

Speaker 1 (29:10):
Right.

Speaker 4 (29:10):
I've played you know, I got through all the you know,
all the missions that you could play, I think with
only if you have high honor. And it's you know,
it's this incredible story about just like finding goodness where
it can be found, right, because you have this guy
who like grew up without a mother with you know,
apparently abusive father. Arthur says like, I watched my dad

(29:32):
die and it couldn't have happened soon enough, who was
raised by you know, a main an egotistical you know
sociopathic maniac, you know, grew up on the streets in
a life of crime that he just fell into because
that's how you survived. And the fact that he just
sought for nobility, right, that he was able to at

(29:57):
all find some sort of self gift within himself that
he could give to someone else is truly remarkable, right.
So I mean that's just very broadly when you start
from that foundation, and there is so much to work with,
and they did a fantastic job executing on that theme.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yeah, I when I played, I've only played one so far,
at some point and you go back and do it
again with a more compelling character arc, because I don't
really I didn't have it mapped out who my Arthur
Morgan was, so I yeah, I started off, you know,
can't kind of neutral going dishonorable because it's fun to

(30:39):
rob trains and stuff. But eventually once I recognize that, no,
I feel like, I feel like Redemption makes sense for
a game called Redemption that obviously they're they're pushing in
that direction, like that there is a good ending and
a bad ending, not just morally speaking, but like there's
an ending that makes more sense that would be the

(31:00):
honorable ending, and so eventually it got to that point
in the story. I figured, no, I should turn it around,
but I just wasn't consistent enough. So it's kind of
a schizophrenic character.

Speaker 3 (31:09):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
But you know, taking the honorable path, taking the redemption path.
I think it really is a profound story, profound character arc.
You know, as you said, you've got this guy who's
who's raised in this pretty lousy environment, but it's all
that he knows. And even within that environment of outlaws,
you know, they're robbing people and killing people and whatnot,

(31:30):
that he's obviously someone who's striving for virtue, which is
why he pried. He prizes loyalty so much, because like
that's the virtue that he knows at least, and so
he's maintaining fidelity to that. Even Tolkien says that Saron
was better than more Gotha for no other reason than
for a time he was loyal to someone beyond himself.
It's like, loyalty is a good thing, even if it's

(31:51):
in the wrong context. And so he's he's trying to
hold on to the good that he knows. And eventually,
you know, as he continues in the path and he's
face to come to terms with his own mortality and
ask the questions that mortality always makes his face of
what's truly important. That allows him to see through the
lies of Dutch, the lies of this deceitful father figure,

(32:15):
and start to carve out his own path, moving in
a different, ideally more positive direction. And that's very much
why I connected with the evan Ili It's similar arc there,
But I think that there's something just deeply redentive about that,
something deeply upbuilding about that, that that's striving for goodness
and hopefully finding it in the end.

Speaker 3 (32:36):
Yeah. I would only add to that that you know,
you mentioned, Andrew, you mentioned loyalty, and that was that
was obviously a very clear through line in the entire
in the entire game. I almost a book in the
entire game. You know, some of the latter the later
conversations between between Arthur and John, when the rioting is

(32:59):
on the wall and the gang is really beginning beginning
to fall apart, Arthur and John talked very explicitly about like, well,
what about loyalty. Yeah, we'll look where that loyalty has
gotten this right, and so Arthur is still Arthur is
still acting according to that loyalty, but he's seeing that

(33:21):
it was misplaced, right, and so you know that that
shows that shows that that's striving towards virtue. The the base,
the base loyalty was always there and now it's it's
growing and flourishing and kind of coming into his own.
But beyond that, uh, you know, if you're if you're

(33:42):
playing as I believe the game is meant to be played,
which is more high honor his redemption. Uh, he's also
motivated by love, right, Like I can't remember what was
the name of his of his love interest, Mary Linton,
Mary Linton. Yeah, that's right. So like if you read
his journal entries and you do all the all the

(34:04):
missions or the quests that involve involve him and Mary,
like that wasn't just some some body sort of you know,
Western uh thing or fling. That was that was a
guy who grew up in an environment where men didn't
talk about love, and he was experiencing these very tender

(34:27):
feelings towards this woman that maybe he didn't know how
to express or even act upon, but he was he
was very clearly feeling them and and and acting upon them.
But also, you know, towards the end when she finally
gets on the train and goes away. Uh, you know,
he he wants to go with her. You can see

(34:48):
that he wants to just throw it all away and
just tell Dutch to go pound sand I'm out of here.
But what does he say? Well, I just I got
to get this one more score, right, we just got
to do this one more job gets some money that
I'm gone, right, So there's that there's that pull between
that we all know all too well. We've all been

(35:08):
in situations where it's like, here's the path I should go,
but oh, this one over here, and and as far
as I know, the game doesn't give you an option
right like you have to you have to see exactly
and so uh so it's a little bit directed there.
But but Arthur was very clearly, uh he was very

(35:29):
clearly aware that that there's more to loyalty than just
the gang, right. There are levels or layers of loyalty,
and he was feeling this pull towards a higher form,
a more exclusive sort of loyalty, and he just he
couldn't quite get there. And know that that leaves the

(35:50):
player asking like what might have been? What might have been? Well,
how how are I mean at that point the die
was cast for Arthur, But how might his last days
have been different had he gotten on that train? Right?

Speaker 4 (36:06):
So even in that scene he says like, there's there's
some things I need to take care of, like one
more score, but he also I forget if he says
there's people I need to see too, But it's very
at that point, he's very clearly thinking of John and
Abbiel and Jack, right, so like they're they're kind of
his big motivation in the final like he's got to
get them to say, that's what we need to take
care of. So, yeah, if he had chosen to go

(36:28):
with marriage, I get it all. I don't think I
could fault him for that at all. But his motivation
to stay is is very much loyalty based. It's like
a more true loyalty, right, It's not it's not just
about money, Like he wants to see to his gang
for their legitimate good. So, like the evolution of Arthur's
idea of loyalty throughout the game is really fantastic, where
at the beginning it's like I'm loyal to Dutch. I'll

(36:51):
do what Dutch says. I trust Dutch to guide us
as you know, as he sees fit, and it kind
of evolves into be loyal to what matters, which is
what he tells John. I mean that in that scene
you were alluding to, it's when they're after they've set
the dynamite on the train tracks and Arthur is telling
John like, you know, like this is all just about done.

(37:12):
When the time comes, you get abbig ala, Jack, you
get the hell here. And John asked, what about loyalty.
Arthur's is be loyal to what matters? Right, So this
is what's kind of come to Arthur over the course
of I mean, we're near the end of the game
at this point where he's realized that, Okay, loyalty does
not mean obedience, right, Loyalty means seeking I mean, loyalty
means essentially love or it means like seeking the good

(37:33):
of the people that you are loyal to, the people
that have been placed in your life that you are
obliged to take care of. And so I think that's
I mean, that's really beautiful like character evolution, as Arthur
kind of understands like the actual virtue in loyalty rather
than loyalty just being a trait or characteristic.

Speaker 3 (37:53):
Yeah, and there's this thought just came to me. There's
also this memento Maury aspect of it, right, like he
only Arthur's thoughts only really begin to change and he
really begins to act on them when he gets his diagnosis.
Right when he sees like, oh crap, my days are
are not just numbered as they all are, but highly

(38:15):
numbered or slowly numbered as it were. Uh, that's when
he really starts taking these thoughts that have been kind
of percolating in his brain, like, you know, is Dutch
losing it? Is he is he not the man he
once was. That's when you know, the scales fall from
the eyes and he sees like, you know what, now
is the time to do something about it, right, I

(38:36):
don't have a lot of time, so let's make the
time that I have count. Which I think that's the
kind of clarity that can only come through uh, a
deep awareness of one's uh ones, not just one's mortality,
but one's pending mortality. There's a there's a great uh
there's a great scene in one of the early episodes

(38:58):
of Band of Brothers where there's a there's a soldier
and he's he's afraid, as all soldiers were, and he's
kind of cowering in a foxhole. And then there's another soldier,
Lieutenant Spears, who is just kind of like a man's man, right,
like he runs into the battle all the time and everything,
and they're talking about, uh, the foxhole soldier says like,

(39:20):
how do you do it? How do you like just
throw yourself into these fights? And Lieutenant Spears says, you
gotta you gotta accept that you're already dead, right, and
tell you accept that you're already dead. You can't do
the one thing that a soldier is supposed to do,
which is throw himself into the fight with reckless abandon
But once you accept that, then it's just a matter

(39:42):
of pulling the trigger, right. And you know that's good.
It's good, uh, good advice for for folks in the military,
but I think it's good advice for all of us.
And you see that with Arthur, right, because again, he's
a dead man. He's a dead man walking, and so
what does it matter if he if he acts on

(40:03):
these these deep thoughts and feelings that he's having and
maybe offends some people that he's he's always been loyal to,
what does it matter because now he's finally acting really
and truly in accordance with I'm going to use my
therapist hat here. He's acting really and truly in accordance
with his own values, right Like, he sees loyalty in

(40:24):
a completely new way and he's acting according to that.
And yeah, I'll over it there.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
Yeah, And similar to what you just said there about
from being a brothers, I was recently reading the letters
of Seneca as I'm putting together this platostosism until we
have face his course that's coming up, and Seneca says that, well,
you're going to spend far more time dead than you

(40:52):
are alive, and so you know, basically live accordingly. Make
that your primary thought. And of course, how much more
value does that hold for the Christian when we consider
the difference between the eternal and the temporal, and that
this this loyalty, this idea, that this virtue that he's
had perhaps in shadow, that's now coming more into substance

(41:15):
and light of his mortality. Well, first of all, I
should say that as I played this game, I didn't
know I didn't know the overarching story. I didn't know
how things were going to play out, and so I
was actually very surprised when this tuberculosis thing just takes
him over. I didn't see that coming because it's something
you expected in a video game. For them just like
throw in this major plot element that seems to come

(41:36):
out of nowhere. I mean, looking back, you know that
he caught it when he was beating up this debtor
who coughed in his face, but you don't think about
that in the moment. And so it's pretty much this
kind of movies situation where they just bring in this
major plot element almost out of nowhere, which I think
is fantastic. But anyways, so yeah, he starts to see
more clearly, and going back to his relationship with Mary,

(41:59):
I mean very much could be argued that in turning
her down at least for a time, but I mean
really ultimately that he was demonstrating loyalty even to her
because he knew that this was not gonna be a
good life for her, even if it would be for
him for his remaining days, That not only was he dying,
but that that he's still an outlaw right like this

(42:20):
is this is no life for a respectable woman that
he actually cares about. And well, you you feel for him,
and you know you want them to go off onto
the sunset together, and you know him living on his
good life with the days that he has left that
on some level he must have known it wasn't going
to work. It shouldn't work, and at that point he's

(42:42):
kind of a tragic hero. Or it has this uh,
this death tost alpha idea that that comes with the
right relationship to mortality.

Speaker 4 (42:49):
There's a there's a letter that you get from from
Mary near the very near the end of the game
where she she returns like the ring that he gave her.
So they were engaged apparently before her family kind of
stepped in, is the sense that we get. And she says,
you're a good man, Arthur, but you know you're resting
with the giant, and the giant wins time and again

(43:14):
and then flash forward to again. This is assuming you've
played as you are playing as High Honor Arthur, and
I think.

Speaker 2 (43:20):
It might be only in the one ending.

Speaker 4 (43:22):
There's four possible endings, right, whether high honor, Low honor,
and then if you go with John or you go
back to get the money, right, So the ending I
got was the High Honor going with John, and so
in this ending, Arthur is, you know, kind of he's down,
he's dying, he's crawling, and Ikea says, you lost my
sick friend. And Arthur says, no, mike seems that despite

(43:43):
my best efforts, I've won. And I'm pretty sure that
he's referring to that letter, right, but that he's referring
to this this battle between you know, himself and the giant,
the giant being his life experience, right, all the people
he's that are around found him, all his vices and
negative tendencies that you know, just turn him time and

(44:05):
time again to the life of not out law. And
you know here is that you know, I've I've won,
I've broken free of that I've gotten I've helped someone
else break free of that. Right I've become, you know,
at least in this one act, a good man. And
I think that's I think it's so beautiful in a.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
Number of ways.

Speaker 4 (44:24):
But just like what others can inspire us to do. Right,
where Mary is, you know, she's not She didn't have
Arthur's life, and Arthur could could very easily resent her
for that fact.

Speaker 2 (44:36):
Where it's like, you shouldn't. Who are you to judge me?
You grew up in wealth and you know, a life
of ease.

Speaker 3 (44:43):
Right.

Speaker 4 (44:44):
You know, she she is widowed, so there's that she
has experienced some hardship, to be fair, But but he
doesn't hold any of that against her, right He just
you know, wants to be you know, worthy of her
right from but you know, isn't willing to sacrifice you know,
loyalty to his friends, to you know, to do so
to become all that that gentleman or whatever, as if

(45:05):
he'd be acceected anyway. So I know, I absolutely love
that moment where Arthur is like I've I've I've beaten
that giant.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
I've never made that connection before, but I I like
that connection a lot. I'm gonna go with with the
idea that that's intended because that's just too perfect not
to be a callback to that layer. That's God, what
a game? What?

Speaker 1 (45:30):
Yeah? And I mean that that idea of winning though
he's dying, you know it by any have traditional worldly
power concerns. I mean he did lose, right, I mean
he lost by getting turberculosis. According to just a you know, survival,
the fit is sort of mentality, a will to power mentality.
You know, he he became he became weak, and it
could be argued that he became weak by his desire

(45:52):
for a virtue that stends beyond his own self preservation. It,
you know, makes you think of in you know, obviously
I've been doing a lot of Lewis over the last
few years. But in medieval cosmology, when they talk about
the influences of the heavens, that the marshal influence, the
influence of Mars, that it not only is what guides

(46:14):
the noble knight who goes out and gains victory and
combat against the forces of evil, but also it's the
influence that leads the noble martyr. Hence the name martyr,
right it comes from It's the martial spirit, but portrayed
in a different kind of way. It's the resolve, the
victory that comes through fighting against the own shadows of
your own temptation as well as the evil forces that

(46:36):
would come against you and do you harm for doing
what is good, and so being a martyr for a
noble cause is a certain kind of embodiment of the
martial spirit, which goes with its idea that though he died,
though he was disenfranchised from his gang, he ultimately was
I mean, he suffered death for his desire for virtue,

(46:58):
even though death would have come eventually, as it would
for all of us. Uh that that he still gained victory.
He died a noble warrior of sorts. And I think
that that is a it's a it's a very Christian idea.
I mean, obviously, you know rock Star is an't gonna
take that all the way and have him have a
litteral come to Jesus moment. But at the same time,
I think it's it's I mean, it's almost about as

(47:20):
close as you can get to embodying the Christian ideal
without explicitly embodying the Christian ideal.

Speaker 4 (47:26):
Did you play the missions where you had the conversations
with Sister Calderon.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
Yes, remind us of the significance of that.

Speaker 4 (47:34):
I missed them, but I like, I don't think I
even played them when I first played through the game,
and then I saw one of the scenes on YouTube
and went, oh, my goodness, I need to, like, I
need to play this mission. So basically it starts out
where you I forget how it is exactly you run
into you run into a brother in San Denis. I

(47:54):
forget his name now, and you talk with him a
little bit. He says he suspects the the like pawn
shop or whatever around the corner is actually like trafficking
slaves basically, So Arthur goes to investigates, finds the slaves,
bring them, brings them to the brother. He gets them,
you know, so their their shelter or wherever, and you

(48:15):
meet him again and a sister from his order basically
they have You have a couple of mission missions where
you talk to her and stuff, do various things, and
then you run into her again at at a train
station where it's after it's the whole during the Indian
plot at the end where like there's the the one

(48:38):
army officer who kind of who's resisting the his colonel's
orders right to kind of who's released, you know, trying
to basically his colonel is basically trying to shove the
Is it the Wapiti, Yeah, thank you, I was thinking
Wama book that's the Indian tribe from uh Parks and

(48:58):
rec But they starting to shove the bed off their
lands yet again, and so you you kind of pull
that officer out of there and they get him on
the train send him off, and Arthur runs into sister
called around at the train station, and.

Speaker 2 (49:12):
He just completely opens up to her.

Speaker 4 (49:14):
But I don't know if he's told anyone about his diagnosis,
uh to this point, but like he's he's like, yeah,
I got TB like I'm dying, sister, and they have
this conversation where like he for the first time he
really admits, like he quite literally says I'm afraid. And
it just I mean the voice acting and the motion
capture like that is perfect. Like the expression on his

(49:37):
face is unreal. It's like this this mask of like
barely veiled like pain and terror. And yeah, so that's
what she tells him. You know, take example that love
exists and do a loving act, which I mean, if
you know, if you have if you're at all versed

(49:57):
and you know Trinitarian theology at least, this is how
I have heard it time and again, is that you know,
God in three persons is an external is in an
eternal exchange of love, right, you know, the phrase God
is love has been said many, many countless times, and
so like that's I mean, I think that's just a

(50:18):
beautiful example of like how to evangelize to someone when
you have thirty seconds to do it, and like, you don't.
I was like, where do I start, right, what do
I even say? And she says, you know, take a
gamble that love exists, and I think that's yeah. So
I'm like, this is Rockster is not a Christian company.
But it was like, that's a very Christian ideal right there.
And I love that they included that because again, redemption

(50:40):
is kind of Christianity's whole thing, and the fact that
they made this this character, this sister, so I mean, again,
she's optional.

Speaker 2 (50:49):
You don't have to you don't have to run into her.

Speaker 4 (50:50):
If you don't, you run into Reverend Swanson and his
scene's pretty pretty good too. But yeah, it's like it's
remarkable out I mean they lay it right out there.
It's an incredibly emotional it's a beautiful scene.

Speaker 3 (51:06):
Yeah, no, notes, that's I was hoping you would bring
that up. I was shocked they included that in the game,
because like, you know, this is this is the same
developer that really built this reputation on being able to
carjack people and shove hookers into trunks and you know,

(51:27):
in the GTA series and now here they are intentionally
or not including such a fundamentally Christian idea into this
game about the wild West. It was, it was, it
was a very welcome surprise when I came across.

Speaker 4 (51:46):
You can still hog type people and feed them the alligators.
That is, you can you can still do those things.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
Yeah, I don't.

Speaker 4 (51:54):
I don't know much about the GTA games, but I've
heard from like Catholic friends of mine that I once said, like,
he's like, can that is it equivalent to like Breaking
Bad in terms of kind of the story, right?

Speaker 2 (52:04):
I know, I don't.

Speaker 1 (52:05):
I know.

Speaker 4 (52:05):
GD is this huge open world like Red Dead too,
where you, yeah, you can just go be a complete
and total uh miscreant if you want to. But it
has this kind of when the actual story and these characters,
it's like, no, no person of an actually relatively well
formed conscience should should want to be like you know, Jason,
I think is the main character in the GG series.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
Maybe that's the new one.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (52:29):
It's like, yeah, no person should want to be like
Walter White and Breaking Bad, and yet a lot of
people do because people don't have super well formed consciousness,
and that I think that's a that's a trap that
or a pitfall when you're developing or you know, writing
a story about you know, deprived people, depraved people there,

(52:49):
if they exhibit any sort of strength, then people young
men are going to look up to and admire.

Speaker 2 (52:57):
Them, even when you you definitely didn't intend that.

Speaker 3 (53:00):
Yeah, yeah, but you know, on the on the idea
of showing strength and and the and the scene that
we were just talking about, like that was arguably one
of the strongest moments in Arthur's story, assuming that you
played it was because you got the sense that that was, like,

(53:20):
as he was saying I'm afraid, you got the sense
that he was just coming to that realization himself. Right.
That didn't seem like something that had a thought that
had been consciously rolling around in his head until the
words came out of his mouth. And you know, for
for for big, bad, tough enforcer and a cowboy gang

(53:44):
Arthur Morgan, you don't admit that you're afraid. Right, this
is a this is a cold blooded killer for all
intents and purposes. And here he is talking to this
little wispy you know, Nune. You know she's a she's
one oh five, soaking wet, and pretty close to death
herself by the looks of it, and here he is

(54:04):
basically giving a confession of sorts like that is that
is a profound show of strength, just not in not
in the way that you would expect. But that's what
makes it such an important inclusion, right, because strength isn't

(54:25):
just beating up a dude who's in debt and telling
him to get your money. Strength is also that vulnerability
and that admitting I'm not I'm not okay right now, right,
and I don't know what to do about that. And
you know the fact that Arthur Morgan's story resonates so

(54:48):
pervasively across video game culture, I think that having those
more vulnerable moments from again this big burly man man,
I think that that is a that was a very
important inclusion.

Speaker 1 (55:06):
I think, yeah, you know, obviously, Arthur Morgan at this
point in the story, when he has this conversation with
his sister, he he is somebody who is well acquainted
with death, just not his own. I for a number
of semesters now, I've taught a course at my state
university called Life, Death and Meaning, and the first class

(55:29):
of that course each semester, at some point I asked
the question, how many of you know that you're going
to die, and everyone raises their hand like, okay, that's
kind of a ridiculous question. And then I'll you know,
everyone raised their hand, and then I'll follow up with
how many of you have thought about the fact that
it is you that is going to die? Suddenly they're

(55:50):
a little less, a little less jovial in the response
to that question. It's no longer such an obvious answer,
because on some level on we all know that we're mortal,
we all know that we're going to die. It's very
different thing to recognize that my existence in the way
that I currently know it is going to come to

(56:11):
an end. And you know, we can do a number
of things with that dread that we all inevitably experience. Either,
you know, it can be transmuted into something good, as
we find in the Christian Gospel, or we can just
hide from it and play the coward and just pretend

(56:33):
like it's not there. But as we see in totsoys
evon iliag like, it's always going to haunt you on
some level. You can't avoid it completely. It's always going
to be there, casting a shadow on the good times
and the bad times. Or you can just live in
absolute dread, and that's not necessarily healthy either, you know,
given those options, I feel like there's only one positive solution.

(56:56):
But fortunately it's the real one, the true one. But
that I would argue that if, like, if you've never
had that moment where you've recognized not just them going
to die, but it is me that is going to die,
then I don't think you've come to terms with what
human life actually is. You can't understand anything, the good
times or the bad times. You can't understand your experience

(57:18):
unless you fully recognize your mortality, which is why we
we you know, have this momentum ory idea. You know,
remember your death, Remember that you're going to die, because
when you recognize it within that light, then suddenly what
you do actually gains significantly more significance, uh, and that

(57:39):
in turn makes your life more worth living. You know,
it's the kind of thing that can actually give you
more joy, more meaning, more substance recognizing that you're going
to die. As paradoxical as that seems on the surface,
and so when when Arthur moregon emits, I'm afraid that
is as we've been talking about it, it's a it's
a powerful moment of just discovering something fundamental to the

(58:02):
human experience.

Speaker 3 (58:05):
There's there's a quote from Alexandra saljer Nits, and it's
a long one, so I won't recite it here. But
in the quote he makes the point that if human
life we're all just about having fun and experiencing pleasure,

(58:25):
then we wouldn't be made to die. And so the
fact that we are made to die, the fact that
all of our lives end in death, must mean or
suggest or at least indicate that there is something, something
higher that we're supposed to do. And so again, I
think that we see that. I think that we see

(58:47):
that in the story of Arthur Morgan, right like before
the diagnosis. He's not exactly living a life of pleasure
or fun, but he's living a very violently hedonistic life.
You know, he's he's part of this gang that's the
last vestige of of the wild West. Because one of

(59:07):
the subplots is is the gang keeps getting pushed further
and further to the peripheries because the world is civilizing
and they don't want to civilize with it. They want
to stick with the the the lawless ways of the
old world, and and Arthur is very much a part
of that. But as he after the diagnosis, he realizes

(59:32):
there's there's stuff that I got to do right. They're
they're important things that I need to set right. So, yeah,
I wanted to incorporate Soljionists and I've done that submission accomplished.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
Yeah, And I think that this arc that we've been
discussing HiT's a hits a high point towards the end
when we have the stuff with the the the Indian
chief that we just mentioned it. What was the tribe's name, Yeah,
the Wapiti. So you know, you've got the chief who
he's just so tired of conflict. You know, he just

(01:00:09):
wants peace early above everything else. And then he's got
his warhawks son, who you know, wants justice, wants revenge,
like he just wants to go to battle even if
they die. He figures what's a better way to go
out than just fading off into nothingness. But Arthur, he
really sympathizes with the father who is just so tired

(01:00:29):
of the conflict. And I think that is just a
good continuation of this arc where you know, Arthur Morgan's
the guy who's living conflict his entire life, but he
just is so tired in many ways, he's preparing for
a life that he could never possibly find on the
side of things as he increasingly comes to terms with

(01:00:49):
with death. And you know, if if you ever had
a season of your life that's given over to particular conflict,
to drama, to attention, like we can all probably sympathize
with that. I just want peace, even if that doesn't
necessarily lead to practical solutions.

Speaker 4 (01:01:05):
There's a line that Arthur says when he's talking to
Chief rains Fall, and he says, it's like it's like
I killed a lot of people for a lot of
dumb reasons, and I never seen any glory in it.
And like putting that that quote against like the backdrop
of what he's experiencing right now, where he's facing his
own mortality and he's realizing how many people he's he's

(01:01:27):
sent to, you know, to meet their own especially because
like he, as Charles said, tells him at some point
around this that like he's been given a gift right
where he like gets to to see his end coming
and to prepare for it to you know, take time
to make things right.

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
Whereas you know.

Speaker 4 (01:01:48):
Who knows what what was in the lives of all
those people that he killed, right, They they never got
time to consider, you know, to just consider their end,
you know, to have a deathbed to you know, to
see it coming. And yeah, it's doubtless that's running through
his mind. And I think that's kind of going to
the end of the story. So in the the low

(01:02:10):
Honor ending where you go up, go up the mountain
with John, Arthur dies by getting shot through the face
point blank by Micah. And I remember I was watching
that on YouTube because I was like, Okay, what are
the other endings after I'd finished mine? And I was like, oh,
I mean, it's like, this really shocked me. Is I mean,

(01:02:30):
it's you know, it's kindily violent, and it's kind of
an appropriate it's almost appropriate. We're like, yeah, that makes sense, right,
of course you did. Of course this happened. But it
robs Arthur of like of those final moments that he
gets in that high Honor ending where he's lying there
and facing the sunrise literally looking at it, literally and
metaphorically looking towards a new day, right if you know,

(01:02:51):
even if that you know, literal new day will not
be for him. But it's a gift he's given to
John and his family. So like, yeah, the you know,
when he's lived his life, you know, his last days
and this, you know, just continued despicable fashion and hence
you know, the low honor and you know it's just
ending suddenly and violently without him getting those you know,
final moments of peace is Yeah, it's like it's stunning.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
Yeah, And that that symbolism of dying facing the sunrise,
there's the symbol of resurrection is there that he dies
with the new day and which again connects to to
Evanilli to if you've read that that you know as
the main character. As he's dying, there's all kinds of
symbolism of resurrection built into that scene, even to the

(01:03:41):
point of the last wards he hears, which weren't spoken
with any great significance, but the aar to him, the
last warts he hears before he dies is it is finished.
And so that there's all this you know, symbolism built
into that scene. And I think that we definitely see
that with High Honor Arthur Morgan dying, that there there's
there's life even in death when death is approached in

(01:04:02):
the right manner, you know, I think often in Tolkien
that the hope is in the west. Yet Ara Gorn
says that at Helm's Deep that dawn is always the
hope of man, which obviously the dawn is in the east.
And so it's like we look toward the west, toward
the sunset, we look toward death with the hope that

(01:04:25):
there's the sun rise on the other side. And I
think that on perhaps a less significant but still significant level,
we see that symbolism here with with the death of
Arthur Morgan in the Sunrise.

Speaker 3 (01:04:36):
Well.

Speaker 4 (01:04:37):
Arthur even says in an earlier conversation at camp, I
didn't I didn't encount happen to find this one. It's
just a random account you can have in camp where
the gang is discussing, like how they want to be
buried or how they want to die. I forget which
exactly I found it just when I was doing research
on the internet and steeing all that, and Arthur sells
them that I don't really care, just you know, bury
me facing the west so I can remember all the

(01:04:57):
good times we have. And I think he might actually
be married in that fashion if you watch the end credits.
But the fact that he does die facing east is
kind of like it kind of flips that on its
head a little bit, which is cool.

Speaker 2 (01:05:09):
Where he's no longer looking back.

Speaker 4 (01:05:10):
He's looking forward, just not for himself especially you know,
as as far as you know life, life on earth
goes anyway. Where he's looking forward for for John, who
he you know, his last act was getting him to
safety and his family as well, which is another point
of Christian symbolism that I wanted to bring up, which
I was like, there's no way that wasn't intentional. It's

(01:05:30):
a conversation Arthur has with Abigail and Sadie. I don't
know said he might be gone to that point, but
you know, is Abigail and Sadie and Jack's already gone.

Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
He's off to safety.

Speaker 4 (01:05:43):
Arthur is about to go back to camp to confront
Dutch because we're continue talking about loyalty. Arthur could just
try to run away at this point, but he goes
back to try to talk talk Dutch down. He feels
like he owes it to Dutch to be like, let's
like you gotta stop, we got to get out of here.
But gives him like the key to the money, you know, say,
for whatever that Dutch has hidden uh, and she says

(01:06:06):
I always was a good thief. And I'm pretty sure
if I remember create that right at that moment when
she says the words good thief, like the last song
that plays throughout Arthur's ride back to camp starts and
I'm like, yeah, there's there's no way you didn't do
that on purpose.

Speaker 2 (01:06:21):
If if it.

Speaker 4 (01:06:22):
Wasn't you on purpose, then like I swear, that's like
divine intervention sticking this into your game. The Yeah, it's
a really cool moment. And like I've gone back and
revisited that scene and went no way.

Speaker 3 (01:06:35):
Again something I never caught. But that's intentional or not,
like you say, intentional or divine intervention. That's that is
a really interesting thing to include, uh, in a game
that's not meant to be Christian, But that is a
very very interesting thing to include.

Speaker 1 (01:06:55):
See. I think that these are things that you find,
whether you're talking about movie or game, when the developer
isn't giving you propaganda, like when they're just trying to
tell you a good story, that naturally a lot of
that's going to resonate with Christianity. It's the true myth.
As Lewis says, So when you're telling the good story.
They're going to be. We should expect a lot of

(01:07:16):
these connection points. But that's a good example. Well, is
there anything else that you feel like should be mentioned
that we haven't hit on at this point.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
I'm sure there's a million things.

Speaker 4 (01:07:26):
But I made a two and a half hour video
about the game, so I anytime you tossed ark about
a certain point, there's a line that pops into my head,
but nothing off the top of my head at this point.

Speaker 3 (01:07:36):
I mean, I guess, just to summarize my thoughts on
the matter, is that there's all it's popular today to
criticize video games for the admittedly very negative potential consequences

(01:07:56):
that playing video games can have. We are all familiar
with those. We don't need to go over those. But
games like Red Dead Redemption too, and there are other
really good games, but in my experience, this may be
the best of them. Games like this really really lend

(01:08:16):
credence to the idea that this is an overlooked medium
in terms of of value communication or or philosophical communication,
like in terms of a medium for transmitting idea, Because
look at us, we've been talking for an hour about
loyalty and love and honor and and theology for crying

(01:08:41):
out loud through a game about the West, right, and this,
this game is a great example of of what this
particular medium can do if if done correctly, right, and
it's a good reason for for people who are more
skeptical of video games as a whole to maybe reconsider them.

(01:09:05):
That's why, again, Andrew, I'm really glad that you have
taken on this particular project because there are a lot
of a lot of good games that offer maybe not
quite to this level, but that offer really good opportunities
to pause and reflect on what a what a person's

(01:09:27):
values are, what their beliefs are, what would I have
done in that situation on that sort of thing. Not
all of them, right, Probably not gonna get this from
like Mario or something, but that would be wild if
you did. But there are games that present this to
those who are willing to look for it and and
do it in such an interesting way because they're interactive, right,

(01:09:49):
They're not movies, they're not lecturers. They are interactive where
you are the character and you have to make the choices,
and so that more than a if the game is fun,
it's great. Everyone should play it. If they get the
opportunity all that. But more than that, the game is
a standout for what video games can be. And I

(01:10:13):
think that more than anything else, that's what I appreciate
about this game.

Speaker 1 (01:10:18):
Yeah, I think as well said and Sam and I've
talked about this before that you know, if somebody is
just interested in amusement, meaning not musing, then well they're
not likely to find a lot of value in video
games or much else for that matter. That if you're
not looking for value, you're probably not going to find it. Alternatively,
if you are looking for value, you typically will find it,

(01:10:39):
especially in good compelling stories like you find a reddit
two in other games. And I've even made the argument
that you know, Tolkien says and on various stories that
one of the reasons why literature is better than movies
is that literature allows the participant, the reader, to well,
to participate in the active subcreation. That not everything it's

(01:11:00):
just given to them. And say, out of your own self,
your experience, other things you've read, other things you've thought about,
like the way that you cast the characters in a book,
the visuals that you have, the sense experience. All that
is something that you are bringing to the story, and
so that's what he thinks it makes literature better than
film and why he was kind of skeptical that Lord

(01:11:22):
of the Rings could be adapted well, because so much
of it is just given to you, thereby forbidding subcreation. Well,
I've tried to make the argument that games can have
that dimension of subcreation in a way that movies don't. They. Yeah,
obviously there's still a lot that's given to you and
you know, the visuals, the story of the structure, but

(01:11:43):
there's a lot given to you in books as well.
But when you have this room to carve your own
path to kind of participate with the protagonists, that it
does provide that realm for like contributing something to the story.
And I think that there is something upbuilding about that. Now.
Before I started talking, I think saying what's about to
say something?

Speaker 4 (01:12:02):
I think I was probably gonna talk about that same
point that I know you made last when last we
talked about video games, where yeah, I mean, you are
able to tell a story through your playthrough some games
more than others. Some games have a very you know,
games like God of War from you know, twenty eighteen,
where it's like they have a story to tell. You
are participating in that story. You're not so much subcreating

(01:12:24):
as you are in Red Dead two. I'm not bashing
out of war, by the way, but it is like
it's it's more an interactive movie, a very fun one.
It works great as a video game, but I love
the game to death, but it is far more of
an interactive active movie than a game like Red Dead two,
where you have actual choices that you make with the
character and just with like you're the various you.

Speaker 2 (01:12:46):
Know, side quests which you can do.

Speaker 4 (01:12:47):
Which God of War has two various side quests you
could pick up which contribute to your story, or just
the interactions that you have. You know, what kind of
Arthur Morgan do you want to be? There's really only
one Kratos, but there are thousands of Arthur Morgan's. And
this goes beyond Red Dead too. You know, you pick
any sort of like you know, strategy game like x
Coom where you're playing through you have a squad of

(01:13:09):
soldiers and they die and you bring you know, you
rate rise new ones up through the ranks and they
die too, and you know, there's there's tons of storytelling
that can be done through vity games, even ones that
aren't strictly story driven ones. Uh, And I think that is,
you know, really beautiful. But yeah, I mean video games
as this method of storytelling or as a genre of

(01:13:30):
storytelling or a medium for storytelling.

Speaker 2 (01:13:33):
There we go.

Speaker 4 (01:13:35):
I think absolutely have potential to be superior to to
film and television because you have that interactive element where
you really just are in the in the person of
you know, whoever you're playing as, and you you know,
you fight as them, you talk as them, you're you
choose what they say and what they do. It really
kind of lets you put yourself more into that world

(01:13:57):
and and feel it more viscerally, which you know is fantastic,
is you know, so, especially as you know, Hollywood continues
to just not learn this lesson time and time again,
and it's like in Indie and you know, double A
studios continue to step up and make games that you know,
I have you know who knows, you know, they have
the chance of going viral. Like I think, I kind

(01:14:21):
of hope, because I generally prefer games to TV and movies,
I hope we see more games that just continue to
tell great stories.

Speaker 2 (01:14:30):
And I hope, I think, but mostly.

Speaker 4 (01:14:33):
I hope that that will continue to see that, which
brings you to the one game that I've played very recently,
which is kind of a little bit everywhere, at least
on my court of the internet or now, which is
called Claire Obscure Expedition thirty three. If either of you
have heard of it, but looks at your faces, I
guess not. But it's a it's a French developed game
by a bunch of developers who at least there I

(01:14:54):
think most of them were. They left, uh, they leave
Bethesda or or.

Speaker 2 (01:15:00):
They left Ubisoft.

Speaker 4 (01:15:03):
Yeah, they left Ubisoft or at least the you know,
like I started, the studio did and I'm sure he
brought people with him and they made a I mean,
it's a it's in the style of Japanese RPGs, so
it's kind of like turn based, party based combat. But
it's a very it's a very story driven game set
in kind of like a post apocalyptic fantasy France essentially

(01:15:24):
where groups of you know, people every year sent out
to try to defeat the the Paintress, this kind of
you know, mystical distant giant who is slowly erasing their
there the population of of their city, and uh, so yeah,
it's a really really philosophically fast, fascinating story. It goes

(01:15:47):
into a lot of you know, different elements about you know,
hope and grief, duty and and you know family. So yeah,
I mean, if you ever, if you get the chance,
it's it's well worth picking up. And you know, it's
not even not even I don't even say that because
I'm like, oh, I agree with everything the game has
to say. There's definitely a lot of it's philosophy, and

(01:16:09):
I'm like, that's you know, but it leaves a lot
of it kind of open to the player to experience
to think about. Right, Like I've said one hundred times,
I'm sure many other people have said this that good
stories prompt you to think, bad stories tell you what
to think and read Two is certainly one of those
where it's like it gives you the It gives you
the story, and it gives you the journey. It lets

(01:16:31):
you create it, and then it lets you think about
it and talk about it for years and years after.

Speaker 3 (01:16:37):
Yeah, when did when did Red Dead to release?

Speaker 2 (01:16:40):
Was it twenty eighteen?

Speaker 3 (01:16:41):
Yeah, there's still still picking it apart.

Speaker 2 (01:16:46):
I'm sure it's still selling well too.

Speaker 4 (01:16:48):
I mean, I know it sold something like seventy million copies,
which is utterly insane.

Speaker 3 (01:16:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well good.

Speaker 1 (01:16:56):
I feel like it's a good conversation. We hit on
the general instead of grounding experience of the story of
the game. We hit on these story elements, especially Thismento
Moory Redemption arc. We've hit the meta level of why
video games can be profitable. I think that the next
episodes that are going to come out after this, we

(01:17:17):
we've got a couple that are actually already recorded on Zelda.
After that, we're probably gonna do a Mass Effect series,
which I've just started playing through for the first time,
and so I don't know if that interests you, guys,
You're more than welcome to attend than no, no obligation.
We'll be in touch.

Speaker 2 (01:17:35):
Yeah, but I played the trilogy. I'm trying to think
it was.

Speaker 4 (01:17:39):
I played the Mass Effect Trilogy for the first time,
but probably like four or five years ago, and like
I have the legendary like legendary edition. I was like,
I gotta play this again. I really, I want to,
really want to make videos about it. I've not found
the time yet.

Speaker 3 (01:17:51):
It's it's been I played the first two. I didn't
get around to three, and then I heard things about three,
and I decided not to not to finish the trilogy,
which is very unlike me. But the first two were
those are very good, just chef Kiss, just amazing games,
very very co tour like, right, I think they were
even developed by the same people or something like that,

(01:18:15):
but very very co tour alike, which is obviously a
more quality.

Speaker 1 (01:18:21):
Yeah for sure. Yeah. Yeah, I've nearly finished two, which
is just it's a great game. I'm going to go
on to three because I've got to finish it out.
I've heard I've heard things as well, and it's always
sad when you have a great franchise that that they tank.
I mean, I'm still upset about Dragon Age, but that's
for another time. But for now, let's go ahead and

(01:18:42):
rat for now. Thank you Sam, thank you Jeremy for
joining us, and I'm sure that we will talk again.

Speaker 2 (01:18:48):
Thanks shoving me on again.

Speaker 1 (01:18:49):
Absolutely, thank you. Thank you for listening or watching that
if you're over on YouTube. I hope that you enjoyed
that conversation. I know that I certainly did, and I
look forward to what is on the road ahead. And
so after this we have a couple episodes that are
already recorded on zeldam one group conversation, one interview conversation,

(01:19:12):
and so that's gonna be if it's not already, it's
gonna be on Patreon very soon. And so if you
want to access that sooner rather than later, to go
to Patreon dot com slash Mythic Mind, get access to
all episodes of all these podcasts, deliver it into one
feed early and ad free. And so we got a
couple episodes on Zelda and after that we're going to
do a series on mass Effect, as I mentioned in
the conversation and sus it's coming out ahead of us

(01:19:34):
on this show. And good news is that because we
have a decent stockpile episodes right now, we are going
to go back to back with weekly episodes at least
for the next few Now, if you want to see
that continue, then I'm really gonna need to support to
keep up that schedule. So go to Patreon dot com
slash Mythic Mind. But that's for now and until next time,
God speed. The Elder Scrolls in Philosophy is six week

(01:20:06):
course beginning in September twenty twenty five. I don't play
many video games these days, but there are certain titles
that have stuck with me, enchanting the mind of my
youth and never entirely fading away. One of the chiefs
among these titles is the Elder Scrolls, namely Marwind, Oblivion
and Skyrim. The level of artistry, mythology, and lore of

(01:20:28):
this universe is vast and provides a strong representative for
asking the question as to how video games might relate
to literature as an art form. Where might it rise
to such a level, where must it fall short? And
what unique advantages does it possess. For this eight week study,
we'll be seeking to answer these questions while analyzing various
elements of this franchise, specifically focusing on content related to

(01:20:50):
Morow and Oblivion and Skyrim. Will be taking a look
at the philosophy of RPGs and considering the philosophical implications
of character creation and form in an open ended series
such as this, and we'll be looking at the relationship
between in game religion, lore, and ideas with our primary
world philosophical and religious concepts. Each week will include one

(01:21:12):
to two videos addressing these topics, ongoing discord conversations and
live meetings. You are also encouraged to spend at least
a little time playing one of these titles each week
as a launching pad for conversation. Join us in Tamreil
that we might better understand our primary life here on
Monday's Enrolled today by going to patreon dot com slash
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(01:21:34):
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5 - Red Dead Redemption 2 (feat. Master Samwise & Jeremy Kee)

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