Ep 66 - Navigating “Pain de Campagne” with Apollonia Poilâne

Baguette may seem like France's most emblematic loaf, but pain de campagne or country bread tells the story of France's relationship with bread far more aptly. Here to trace that history is Apollonia Poilâne, the third-generation owner of Paris' Poilâne bakery.

https://www.poilane.com/



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Credits
Host: Emily Monaco. @Emily_in_France; Website: http://www.tomatokumato.com and http://www.emilymmonaco.com
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Music Credits
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About Us
From one Emily in Paris to another... just speaking French isn't enough to understand the intricacies of the locals, but it's definitely a good place to start. Famously defended by armed "immortals" of the Académie Française (no, we're not making this up) the French language is filled with clues that show interested outsiders what, exactly, makes the French tick.

Each episode, listen in as Emily Monaco and an expert take a deep dive into a word that helps us gain a keener understanding of the French.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
You are listening to Navigating the Frenchon Paris Underground Radio. For more great
content and a bonus episode of Navigatingthe French, please join us on Patreon.
Hello and welcome to Navigating the French, the podcast where each episode we
take a look at a French wordand try and see what it tells us

(00:22):
about French culture. I'm your host, Emily Monaco. Today I'm joined by
Appollonia Poilan, the third generation ownerof Poillon Bakery. She's here to explore
a phrase referring to a bread thatlong pre dates the emblematic bagatt and may
even outlast it pounde con so.Pande campaign is a term that we hear

(00:47):
a lot in France referring to countrybread. But actually one of the best
known producers of pande camp in Franceis in Paris and from Paris, and
I feel so lucky to have heron the podcast today. A Pulan.
Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you Emily for greeting me today.
Before we get into country bread,which I think you are probably the

(01:08):
best person to talk to us about, I thought we should start things off
with maybe the most emblematic of Frenchbreads, which is a little odd because
it's a pretty recent invention all thingsconsidered, which is the baguette, and
the baguette seems pretty synonymous with Frenchculture and French cooking. But if I'm

(01:29):
not mistaken, even though we doassociate France with this baguette that we carry
under our arm, it actually postdates Panda compagn You have a sort of
style of bread that you and thePolan family have been famous for making.
Is that right? Am I gettingthat sort of timeline correct? That's one
correct, Emily. I think itreally is emblematic of what in other circumstances

(01:53):
people would call or it's maybe justanother French paradox. There is in France
a bread that has fed and ultimatelygenerations and centuries of Europeans. It's the
country style, big loafs of breadat a time when an average French person,
and this is in the early nineteenhundreds, eight six to nine hundred

(02:16):
grams of bread per person in perday, so that's about two pounds of
bread every single day. Because breadwas really put in Jonathan Swift's word,
the staff of life, it reallywas the main source of food that an
average French person would eat and thelonger pan de fontezie as they are classified.

(02:40):
Breads such as the baguette are actuallyan early twentieth century bread that emerges
probably because for the first time thereare so many people who used to be
in the countryside that now live inthe city, and so they have access
to so many more base crease becausethey're at virtually every street corner, and

(03:02):
I suspect that because of they're theconcentration of men and women in cities.
There was the emergence of this breadthat was possible because people went to the
bait create multiple times a day tobuy this smaller piece of bread that you

(03:22):
could then eat on the multiple mealsthat you would have. But what is
interesting, and you mentioned this inyour introduction, is that a loaf of
wheat sourdough bread such as the oneswe make at Poulan in the heart of
Saint Germain Debre in Paris is intrinsicallya country style loaf that has fed centuries

(03:43):
of French and these I mean,I've had the opportunity and many people who've
come to Paris have had the opportunityto try your bread. You see it
on brasseriy menus as part of aCoqupoilan. You see it, You know,
these these big, really invited slicesof bread, and I think that
once people know where it comes from, then they start to recognize it.

(04:04):
And it is that sort of hearty, really consistent, filling loaf that makes
you feel like you're actually eating somethingthat it's not just sort of accompanying what
you're eating, which can often bethe role that something like a white bread
or a bag att takes. AndI think what we do at Poilan,

(04:26):
baking these thick crusts, thoroughly cooked, beautiful fermentation breads, is really about
nurturing this community of people and inspiringthem by a bread that feeds their body
and mind. It's rekindling with rootsof the pasts that have fed centuries of

(04:47):
men and women. In France,yes, but also across Europe, because
our country style loaf is ultimately acontinental European bread, but as you said,
our bread is distinctive. And whenpeople have a slice of our loaf,
whether it's over breakfast, toasted onone side with a little bit of
butter, salted butter even better smotheredon it, or whether they have a

(05:10):
tactine so an opus space sandwich thatyou will typically have at a little cafe
or a cock monsieur on my bread. There's no way of going back.
It is so distinctive that you willrecognize it and you will want to have
that experience. Again, what Ithink is interesting for our listeners to be

(05:30):
aware of, you know, andI know that there's been a lot of
stereotyping when it comes to France andto the way in which the French live
their lives, and I think thatthere's a little bit of rose colored glasses
kind of mindset when it comes specificallyto the food system and to the industrialization

(05:51):
or you know, mythical lack thereofof food in France. And one thing
that's uncomfortable for us to be awareof, but I think is essential for
us to talk about if we're goingto talk about the role that your family
had in sort of bringing Panda compaand back to life as it were,
is that there was a period oftime, you know, concurrent with your

(06:14):
grandfather's work, where we did haveindustrialized bread in France, and there is
still industrialized bread in France. Socould you talk a little bit about sort
of what the bread scape looked likeat the time when your father got start
or your grandfather. I'm sorry itgot started in nineteen thirty two one hundred
percent of milion. I appreciate youasking, and I actually think we should

(06:35):
even go a little before that andtalk about how bread, wine and cheese
and dairy products broadly speaking, andwhen I say wine, it could be
beer as well as grape wine.How these three products essentially fed our civilization,
and how put in the words ofdairy and butter producer, they're the

(07:00):
most counterfeited foods that we found.So that is to say that as humans
we've been pretty ingenious over the centurieson how to multiply breads, expand wine,
and grow cheese beyond the actual quantityof dairy products, grapes and grains
that we can use. Or inother words, bad bread didn't wait industrialization

(07:25):
to happen. You could have breadin the nineteenth century that for lack of
a good crop one year could becut out with some sawdust or whatever kind
of flower, of whatever product thatcould blend in colorwise into a grain flour.
And it's important to reframe this becausethen you can better understand why in

(07:48):
nineteen thirty two, when my grandfatherstarted in the heart of Paris to make
these big country loafs, where asmost French or Parisians rather were very much
seduced by this smaller bread, andalso for bakers it was an easier way
to free themselves from the price controls. So my grandfather started making these big

(08:09):
country style those because it was away of sharing bread with his neighbors who
were artists and craftsmen who shared thiscommonality of being bon vivans and people that
wanted to nurture community, and bigloaves of bread do that, plus they
keep so they're also better value.But that was mainly important for the starving

(08:30):
artists that little by little started paintingmy grandfather's bread and that are in the
back room of our stir on Ridischmedi But I put this anchor to say
my grandfather starts in nineteen thirty twoat a time where Paris is in a
love affair with the baguette, andthen post World War two, my grandfather

(08:54):
was faced with another challenge, whichwas during the war years, people used
a lot of darker flowers, andthe white flower breads gave the impression of
a sense of richness you could affordnot to use the entirety of the grain.
It was chaker, even though itwas actually nutritionally speaking, rather void.
But post World War two, thecountry is destroyed, there's not enough

(09:18):
grain to feed people. You know, France did survive off of American and
Canadian especially grain. Meanwhile, therewas a baby boom, and so the
question becomes how do you feed themass? And bear in minded Until I
think it's nineteen forty seven, atleast we carried on having food stamps in

(09:39):
France because we just did not haveenough quantities. Rationing was in place.
So all this to say that therewas post World War two an impulse to
create masses of bread, and itdoestrialization for all of its bad aspects,
and that whether that's poor quality productsor rather void calor ease and just generally

(10:01):
speaking a process that doesn't respect theraw material that is the grain, or
the fermentation the process, it actuallyserved the purpose of filling in the quantity.
And so now we're at a timewhere we can afford the quality because
we've overcome the hill of the quantitythat was the problem post World War two.

(10:24):
And so I think that now thequestion is what is the style of
bread that you want to eat.And this is something where I think that
we ought to turn our minds intothis very simple, overlooked product of our
daily lives, because bread can reallybe a wonderful and quite magical ingredient.

(10:45):
And this is not hocus pocus.This is just simply like an egg,
a piece of bread is this magicalobject that links us humans to the earth,
to our civilization, to generations ofthe past, onto the future ones.
And so I just want to turnto the symbolics of bread beyond what

(11:07):
its physical function to say, andto provoking people listening to us the questions
what is the bread that you wantto eat? Who do you want to
be? Yeah? Wow, Imean there's so much. All I was
going to say an awful pun butis going to come out anyway. There's
so much baked into but the conceptof bread, and especially in France,

(11:31):
where I mean, as you've soeloquently traced for us, the surge in
availability and then the dearth and thedesire for whiter breads, or for country
breads, or for any bread atall, has been such a mirror of
the way that society is sort ofebbing and flowing in terms of prosperity and
just throughout France's history, in Paris'shistory specifically. Absolutely, and to further,

(11:54):
you were feeling ashamed of your pun, but I would celebrate your pun
because the reality is there are somany puns and words and expressions that surround
bread and grain. I think it'stelling of how important bread is in our
lives. In fact, I wouldactually try to dare you not to go
throughout a day without making any puns, reference or cultural something that links us

(12:20):
to bread. It's impossible. Imean, if you look at the way
that we talk about bread and theparallel you can create with maternity or a
sexual vocabulary, it's telling of howimportant and how basic it is. And
I give those two examples because thesame way that you have one generation of
breads to another, especially if youuse sourdough like we do so a piece

(12:41):
of dough from one batch which wetransmit to the following batch. It's not
all that surprising that as bakeries becomebusinesses, then that vocabulary that's seeped into
the culture, you know, takeson some funny quirks. Like there's Stephen
Kaplan, who Who's Who's a veryfamous French American historian who's a specialist,

(13:05):
if not the specialist, of bread, and especially French bread. He has
this incredible video that you can findonline where he reminds us that when two
breads stick to each other in theoven, one says that in our jargon,
or in our baker's jargon, wesay ebez, they copulate. The
reality is this is how raw andhow wonderful bread is. And yes,

(13:30):
you must make those puns or tryand escape from them. And what you'll
realize is that the same way thatthe French say long as a day without
bread, it is hard to escapethis beautiful product of nature and our hands
and our intelligence into feeding us.Yeah. I mean in English, I
can think of a few sort ofidioms and expressions. I mean, you

(13:52):
know, having dough and things likethat, but in France it really is
avois dup or even Saint manche padtin. You know, there's so many different
ways in which bread is part ofthe way that we illustrate the world through
expressions and through words. And Ithink that's really it just shows how front
of mind it is in France prettymuch all the time. Descent. If

(14:20):
you're enjoying this episode of Navigating theFrench. You may also be interested in
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I've been in charge of my family'sbusiness now for twenty one years.

(14:41):
I took over my family's business whenmy parents passed away in an accident.
I was eighteen. I had myFrench Bacquelo Ria, taking a year off
before I went to college in theUS, and I am here twenty one
years later because the beauty and theincredible richness of what I'm doing in the
bakery, the people I meet,the subjects with which bread links you to

(15:05):
life and societies, and it's justincredible. I mean, of course,
I'm very partial to this, butI can't think of any other profession that
does that in such a delicious way, absolutely and universal, because I will
contend that we all eat bread inone way, shape or form or another.
So something that I feel very passionateabout is turning the conversation from bread

(15:31):
to grain. And I say thisbecause it occurred to me that when we
use the word flour we generically meanwheat flour, but actually not only is
there not just wheat on this planet. Some civilizations were built on corn,
some others on rice, and someothers on whatever the grain is on the

(15:54):
terrain that is best suited for yourgeography. But it's also you can make
flour made out of stone and thenyou have plaster eventually, or you can
make flour about any kind of ingredientthat you can reduce and grind so thinly
that the texture is one that youcall flour. And so I think that
in turning the focus and dropping theword flour or more being more precise in

(16:18):
our use of the word flower,we then open the possibilities and understanding of
the bread links that connects us towhen whether it's you're having a little corn
bread, a slice of my countryloaf, a niningera in Ethiopia, for
a bowl of rice in Japan,and how those are all bread. I've
heard it described in France specifically astaking on a role that is maybe a

(16:42):
little bit harder for Americans to sortof conceive of. If you don't,
as you've just done, zoom outand say okay, let's allow all of
this to encompass bread, because breadin France is breakfast, lunch and dinner.
It's an extra piece of cutlery,you know, you have your bit
of bread to so se la cla. And it's also it's a rite of

(17:04):
passage. It's the first errand thata French parent might send their child out,
you know, go out around thecorner, buy a bag at It's
something that you would go out fortwice a day, if not more,
you know, once first thing inthe morning, once on the way home
from work. There was that advertisingcampaign of Kukrilo Pin. I don't remember

(17:25):
the exact verbiage of it, butyeah, but it's it really is it
really is that thing where bread isindispensable ingredients to our lives. And you're
talking about the cutlery. It usedto be that bread was a plate and
a modern iteration of that is adatine where you can use I mean you'll
probably put it on the plate,but you literally can use your hands as

(17:48):
the cutlery. And the tatine itselfis just the recipient, but a very
important ingredient to the taste. That'sthe only precision I would say you're you're
right now. The campaign you're referringto was about ten years ago. There
was a campaign that was very shockingin France on buses and other types of
public transportation, publicity interrogating people likeor nudging people on have they brought bread

(18:15):
at home? Because our levels asso we go from post World War two
at a time where bread was reallythe people's main food to a more diversified
diet because our societies get richer andso we can afford to eat less bread
now that has an effect compounded withindustrial bread that like, the average intake

(18:40):
of a bread per French person inper day now is less than one hundred
grams, so think less than halfof a baguette. So whereas an average
French person ate half of my bighugs of bread daily that's by the way,
several baguettes per day now, theyeat less than half of a baguette.
Or if they came to my bakery, they could buy bread by the

(19:02):
slice and have just a slice everyday to have that social connection if they
didn't want to take half a loaffor it to last a week in their
homes. So that's that's something thatthat campaign was made to revamp the sale
of bread, but also focus people'sattention on eating bread because it was diminishing

(19:23):
drastically. And I've spoken with otherexperts in this field who've sort of encouraged
me, and I'm wondering if you'dfeel the same to refocus that what was
being framed as you know, peopleeating less bread to the fact that these
days people are merely seeking out betterquality bread. You know, they're not
buying lots of industrial or quickly madebaguettes. They're seeking out breads like yours,

(19:51):
or there are some other sort ofnew wave sourdough bakeries that are coming
to Paris selling more la coup sobread sold by weight, and so they're
maybe buying less bag at but they'rereally seeking out good quality breads, which,
as you mentioned earlier, are morefocused on the grains, on the
ingredients, on the quality. Isthat something? Is that an evolution that

(20:11):
you are seeing on the porous landscape? So that would hold if the weight
and volume of bread bought correspondent,but that's not the case. Okay,
I think that nowadays. I dothink that we're seeing since the two thousands
arise in the new generations of bakers, and I will pretentiously but earnestly think

(20:33):
that my grandfather and father were verymuch the generation that inspired and new generations
of bakers that have at heart tobake quality breads and to say, okay,
we've had our years with industrial bread, and that time has gone by,
we've seen that it's not the greatestproduct. In fact, it's probably
not good neither in the short norin the long term for our bodies or

(20:56):
even what it vehicles in terms ofcommunity and and messages. I mean,
there's you don't when you share aloaf of bread, it's around. It's
something that's sentimental, it's lovely,there's something virtuous about it. It's not
this like there was also a fadin France for solo, little tiny loafs
that for individuals, and you're like, okay, well, great, like

(21:18):
that's the ultimate. Not only doyou not get the same kind of fermentation
then you would get in a largerloaf, but it's also just your selfish
little piece of bread, whereas breadis about sharing and nurturing a virtuous circle.
So I do think that we've seenover the past twenty years or so
probably a little more new generations ofbakers that have increased the equality of their

(21:41):
production, and that has created fornew good competition for bakeries like mine that
have been around doing this for ninetyyears, and that is good for the
French people in general. But Ithink that we eat less bread today because
maybe to some extent we've forgotten becausewe've had some lesser quality bread for a

(22:03):
while, just how beautiful a loafof bread can be, and how it's
just a beautiful and deceivingly smart food. I like to cycle a lot,
and when I go cycling and Irun distance, there'll be a time where
I might run out of little foodsand nibbles. And there's two things that
I do. Sometimes I will stopat the local bakery that's on the way

(22:27):
and take a baguette and make sureit has some cheese inside, and I
have a little piece of bread whichare fast sugars and some cheese, just
to like flavor the whole experience,and that's a great snack. I'll also
typically take a slice of my Ryanraisin bread, which has just heartier and
it will keep me going a littlelonger. All this to say, and

(22:51):
I was talking about this with oneof my Millers and we were talking about
and our point was good bread.It really is like an egg, a
very versatile and basic and deceivingly amazingfood. My point being, if you
can find quality bread, you actuallydon't need much else. And I seldom,

(23:12):
I very very seldom skip a meal. And I certainly and I'm certainly
not I'm the person who needs tohave breakfast lunch in their day. But
if a meeting is running late,or if I really do, once in
a blue moon, need to skipa meal, or bound skipping a meal,
I've always found comfort in that Ryanraisin loaf that I was just telling

(23:34):
you about, or just a sliceof my bread. In general, I'm
always surprised to see how much itwill sustain me. Yeah, I mean
doubt when you were talking about sortof the fact that the quantities of bread
that we're eating don't reflect the factthat we might be switching to this sort
of bread, I mean, Iguess maybe we don't need quite as much.

(23:56):
You know, if you make abread that's as nourishing as the bread
that you make, maybe you caneat less of it and reap just as
many, if not more benefits thanyou would of something more typically bag at
eat the kind of white bread thatwe might think of finding in you know,
a basket on a bistro table thatreally doesn't have the nourishment that something

(24:19):
like a country lift does. Onehundred percent agree to the effect of what
you're saying. Bread can also bea great filler of in different opportunities.
So it's normal that you would havesome some fillers that are faster sugars,
and others would be slower sugars,and they all participate. I mean,
bread is an umbrella word to representactually many and various shapes and forms.

(24:45):
I'm curious. I mean, youare, you know, the torch bearer
of Puila, and and I don'tthink that it was in any way you
alluded to the fact that it mightbe pretentious. I don't think it is
at all to assume that your grandfatherand your father really were the first to
pay the way for the trend thatwe're seeing in bread now. Obviously,
I don't expect you to have hadthe perspective of you know, that near

(25:07):
century of history. But if youlook at kind of the different trends of
bread in France and what is onoffer and what's popular today, Is there
anything that you expect next for theworld of French bread. Do you expect
baguettes to become less popular? Doyou expect people to be trying some of
these other types of bread that youwere evoking, whether it's Ethiopian jera or

(25:32):
you know, more rice or somethinglike that. Or do you think that
things are kind of settling back intothe country bread that those country folks coming
to Paris that you alluded to backat the beginning of our conversation were kind
of running away from and towards thesemore refined white breads when they got here.
What do you sort of see asthe next stage? I think the

(25:53):
next stage is really focusing on whatare the grains that are involved in the
day breads, which are ultimately justthe dress of the core ingredients or the
outfits rather of this core ingredient.I think that as I'm hoping that in
the years to come, people's conversationcan switch to when they talk about the

(26:17):
fermentation, that they stop using sourdough as a category and more as understand
that it's a methodology and not takeit for granted because you can buy sarado
off of a catalog and you canthere's many ways you can cut corners,
but if we start, if we'regoing to use a beautiful word like the
word sourdough, and knowing how muchsome bakers put of effort and love into

(26:44):
creating a piece of dough, whetherit's a hard sour dough like we use,
which is a piece of dough fromone batch, which is fermented and
carried on to the next batch,like the wine and the cheesemaking processes,
learn how to value that and understandsthat food is an incredibly deceivingly complex and

(27:07):
rich ingredient of our lives. Andit's a world where, yes, there's
many ways in which you can sophisticateyour life, but there's these simple things
that we're overlooking that look on thesurface simple, but that are actually complex
enough that if we paid attention tothem, we'd realize the richness that they

(27:29):
have within and that we can address. I think that's something that needs to
be maybe appreciated more, if notjust strike people's curiosity. If you're enjoying
this episode of Navigating the French,you may also be interested in our sister
podcast, story Time in Paris,where each week host Jennifer interviews a different

(27:52):
author about his or her book setin Paris or France. Navigating in the
French will be right back after aword from our spot answers, and now
back to Navigating the French. Well, thank you so very much for joining
me today. It's a pleasure asalways to speak with you about bread.
I mean, you've obviously spent alot of time thinking about it, understandably,

(28:14):
and I really appreciate all of yourinsight. Before I let you go,
I have one last question for you, and that is what is your
favorite word in French? Oh?Oh, oh oh? What is my
favorite? Yes? Very easy?Why am I thinking overthinking this? Oh?
Good one? Nurture because it's alittle bit like the sour dough.

(28:37):
It's something where it comes from you. It's rooted in your past, but
it's investing in the future. Andthat is also what Poulan is about.
It's that conversation between past and present. And I think that you know,
when we talk about the present doesn'texist. It's the product of the past
and future, and you're like,yes, and bread materializes that and to

(29:00):
nurture nourie is about sharing all ofthat amazing wonderful ah. I feel nourished
by this conversation, which is anotheralso fun, and I nourish by your
questions simily. Thank you, thankyou so very much for joining me.
Anybody who is coming to Paris shouldabsolutely go and check out Poalan, although

(29:26):
it's almost unavoidable. If you ordera croke monsieur in a classic bistro,
you're likely to find it on Polanbread. But if you stop by the
original bakery you might even be ableto catch a glimpse of the bread chandelier,
which is a pretty awesome claim tofame. You've got, yes,
and we'll put a link as wellto mister Kaplan's video in the show notes

(29:48):
for anybody who wants to learn abit more about bread from as you,
as you put, probably the reigningexpert of French bread. Yes he is,
and what is incredible is that hemakes it accessible. He is a
scholar, and so what he doesand what he researches he does with intent
and a lot of detail, andthat is really a precious resource. But

(30:12):
I think that he also understands Frenchculture in a unique way that only a
foreigner could understand, because they don'ttake what ultimately the French take for granted.
Absolutely well, thank you so verymuch for joining me. Have a
fantastic rest of your day and youThis has been Navigating the French. You

(30:36):
can find more from me Emily Monicoat Emily Underscore in Underscore France, on
Twitter and Instagram. This podcast isproduced by Paris Underground Radio. To listen
to other episodes of this podcast,or to discover more podcasts like it,
please visit Paris Underground Radio dot com. Thanks for listening and abentu. This
episode of Navigating the French was producedby Jennifer garrierty P Paris Underground Radio.

(31:00):
For more great content, join uson Patreon at Patreon dot com slash Paris Underground Radio