Ep 69 - Navigating “Je Ne Sais Quoi” with Debra Ollivier

Je ne sais quoi is a phrase American women love to use to describe their French counterparts, but according to Debra Ollivier, best-selling author of What French Women Know About Love, Sex, and Other Matters of the Heart and Mind, the French don't use it at all. She's here to talk about why – and what this means about the French approach to popularity, likeability, and identity.

https://www.amazon.com/What-French-Women-Know-Matters/dp/042523648X


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Credits
Host: Emily Monaco. @Emily_in_France; Website: http://www.tomatokumato.com and http://www.emilymmonaco.com
Producer: Jennifer Geraghty. @jennyphoria; Website: http://jennyphoria.com

Music Credits
Édith Piaf - La Vie en Rose (DeliFB Lofi Remix)
🎵 MSKD Sounds: https://www.instagram.com/mskd_sounds/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRql... https://soundcloud.com/mskd_sounds
🎵 DeliFB: https://www.youtube.com/c/DeliFB https://soundcloud.com/delifb https://www.instagram.com/cativo.kevin/ https://twitter.com/DeliciousFB

About Us
From one Emily in Paris to another... just speaking French isn't enough to understand the intricacies of the locals, but it's definitely a good place to start. Famously defended by armed "immortals" of the Académie Française (no, we're not making this up) the French language is filled with clues that show interested outsiders what, exactly, makes the French tick.

Each episode, listen in as Emily Monaco and an expert take a deep dive into a word that helps us gain a keener understanding of the French.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
You are listening to Navigating the Frenchon Paris Underground Radio. For more great
content and a bonus episode of Navigatingthe French, please join us on Patreon.
Hello and welcome to Navigating the French, the podcast where each episode we
take a look at a French wordand try and see what it tells us

(00:21):
about French culture. I'm your host, Emily Monico. Today I'm chatting with
Debra Olivier, author of What FrenchWomen Know About Love, Sex, and
Other Matters of the Heart and mind. She's here to discuss a phrase American
women often use to longingly describe theallure of their French counterparts, a phrase

(00:42):
that oddly the French don't use atall, junouseaquos. I'm so excited to
welcome Deborah Olivier to the podcast today. Deborah, thank you so so much
for joining me. Could you giveour listeners a little bit of information about
who you are and what your connectionto Frances Sure well, thank you first,

(01:04):
Emily, thank you for having meso My connection to France goes way
back to my pre college years.I studied there in high school, I
went to college there. I studiedFrench literature at UCLA and also at the
Sorbonne, and then a couple ofyears later, I'm really this is the

(01:26):
short version. I met a Frenchmanactually in Los Angeles, where I returned
to live where I was born,and returned to Paris with him, got
married, and spent the next tenor twelve years in France, living in
Paris. I had two kids there, and then returned to Los Angeles in

(01:49):
the I guess early two thousands,and went back and forth between Paris and
Los Angeles. And I did writequite a bit when I was living in
Paris about the differences between French andAmericans, particularly in the realm of parenting,
because I was a new mom andI was really observing the cultural differences
and parenting between Americans and French.Started writing quite a bit at the time

(02:10):
for Salon magazine about these cultural differences. And then when I returned to the
Los Angeles, I was contracted towrite one book about French women, and
that parlayed into a second book aboutFrench women, again looking at the cultural
differences between mostly Americans or Anglo Saxonsand the French. And that's a really
broad brushstroke of my connection to France, but it goes way back. My

(02:32):
kids are French citizens. I havedual citizenship, and you know, it's
a long standing relationship. And you'vespent so much time and so much of
your writing time thinking about these differencesthat you know have been of such interest
to me over the past few yearsof doing this podcast, I know are
of great interest to our listeners.And one phrase that I know you spent

(02:55):
quite a lot of time thinking aboutis the phrase that we're going to be
chatting about today, which is squa. And for me, you know,
when I hear jeni sequa, it'sit's one of those things that people say
in English, you know, whenthey're speaking English, they don't translate it.
And often I find that that sortof phrase that gets borrowed in its
whole self, like faux pas ormenage atois, are things either are intrinsically

(03:23):
or that we as Americans assume areintrinsically French. So, just to get
the ball rolling here, do youthink that's the case with juna sequa.
Is this something that is so innatelyintrinsically French that it would be silly to
translate it? Or is there anotherreason why you think we're using juna sequa

(03:43):
in England. That's a really greatquestion. I'm going to say I have
rarely heard a French person say I'veheard them sat like, but I think
that qua has been appropriated by AngloSaxons become much more of a weighted term
for Americans, I'll just say Americansthan for the French, for a number

(04:06):
of reasons which we can explore.So yeah, I don't think it's intrinsically
deeply French or embedded in f orthe French are deeply attached to that term,
or that it's as loaded for theFrench as it is for Americans.
And I think I didn't want toput words in anybody's mouth, but I

(04:26):
would agree with you after sixteen years, I don't think I've ever heard a
French person say juna sequa. I'veheard them, as you said, say
na, I've heard them say ohship ba, but I've never heard them
sayqua. And juna sequa has areally unique meaning for Americans who use it,
and one that feels to me atleast to be you know, I
intuit it to be quite tied intothis American perception of French women or French

(04:51):
femininity. Does that feel accurate toyou. Yes, although I will say
that as I explore the term,particularly in my second book, I really
cast a wider net around the term. I do think it started with the
allure of French women, and itwas kind of embedded in our notions of
style, like what is this effortlesschic that they have? You know,

(05:14):
how can the French women look somade up with so little makeup? You
know? How can they do morewith less? Like all these sort of
contradictions that as Americans who are veryblack and white, we couldn't quite put
our finger on it, which isessentially what the word means. You know,
gena say quai. You know,I don't know what it is,
right, So I think it startedin the context of style and French women

(05:36):
and that allure, but I thinkit has ramifications in other areas, including
like culture and love. And it'sjust I think it's really connected to ambiguity
and nuance and the coexistence of contradictionsthat we Americans can't put our finger on
because we are very black and whiteculture. We're a very binary culture.
So I think it's yes, verymuch connected to the allure French women,

(06:00):
but it's actually a term that embracesmore and so when we look at that
more, I mean, I'm gettingalready some of the ideas that you're putting
into this, and it's just sofascinating to me. This this allure that
we have of this unnameable quality likethat is what we're saying is I don't
know what it is, but it'sa little something. I can't quite put

(06:21):
finger on it. But it feelsas though whether we're going to use it
to talk about women or in thisbroader way, which I want to go
way more into with you, becauseI'm super fascinated. I do get the
sense that there is almost this,as you said, this like effortlessness kind
of built into it. Do youthink the French care as much as we

(06:45):
think they care about how effortlessly theyare cool? Absolutely not. I think
they find it amusing and in fact, I know, I mean, I've
had many conversations about this with Frenchwomen, including French women who work in
the style industry in Paris, youknow, and they find it very amusing
when Anglo sextions or Americans comment onthis. So I would say no to

(07:09):
that. It's very much seen throughthe lens and Anglo Saxon lens. I
want to and to your point,you know, I wanted to kind of
take a little tangent here and say, like that unnameable quality that you're describing
that we see in French women.Again, I said that it has to
do with I also think like contradictionsthat can coexist, and the term jolie

(07:30):
led. I'm not sure if you'veunpacked that with another guest. I have
not, and I wanted to askyou about that, So let's dive in
right now. Tell me more aboutOkay, I think it's connected to jendesiqua.
And that's a term like if youtranslate it directly in English, it
doesn't work like ugly pretty or Iguess you'd have to reverse it and say
pretty slash ugly. I don't knowwhat, but it essentially is a term

(07:53):
that describes the coexistence of something thatis traditionally beautiful and perhaps traditionally not ugly
is a harsh word in English,but you know, the kind of coexistence
of imperfections that are sort of perfectlycome together but in an imperfect fashion,
right Like this is very French,I think, and this is something that

(08:15):
we Americans have a very hard timegetting our head around nqua. You know,
the Juli Led like there's we justdon't have that in our culture.
So I feel like Julie Led andwe could go for that. Somebody needs
to write it. Maybe you shouldwrite the book about it, Emily,
maybe you should write a book aboutit. I should. I do find
it fascinating. So some of theseFrench women who kind of embody that Julie

(08:35):
Led, who have that sort ofqua. I'm not talking about like you
know, the classic you know,Catherine Den or these types, but you
know women who I'm trying to thinkof off the top of my head.
I can't even slightly more quirky.Well, I can think like the gap
tooth of Vanessa parody for example,exactly talk a lot about that or anyone.
I mean, honestly, I feellike the fact that French women tend

(08:56):
to do minimal makeup or like they'revery rarely perfectly quaff Like even when I
moved here and very as a curlygirl, I was so upset about it.
Very straight hair was still very verypopular, and I got to France
and I was like, oh,nobody has very straight hair here. You
know, nobody's spending hours with awith a straightening iron. Wildly. No,

(09:18):
on the contrary, In fact,it's intially getting back to the gap
in Venicepadi's teeth. You know thatAmericans would be inclined to fix it,
like we come from a culture wherewe need to fix things. We have
an extremely muscular self improvement culture.It's actually oppressive, right, so you're
constantly fixing and improving, and thatself improvement market is a huge, multi
billion dollar business. And the Frenchare very much the I don't want to

(09:41):
say the opposite, right, becausethey have a certain style and grace,
and they're very into aesthetics and there'sa snobbery around that for sure. But
you don't fix yourself. You kindof attach yourself to your own It sounds
trite, but authenticity, authentic quirksand so forth, and you let them
be right. I've never met aFrench woman who I'm trying to think,
have I ever met a French womanwho blow drives her hair? I also

(10:05):
have curly hair, so and Iresisted the blow drying thing, but yeah,
I don't. It's it's a verydifferent culture. So you know,
the term oneturl, it truly hasa life in France. But I think
the fix it culture, fixing andapproving. You know, there's also something
I'm digressing a little bit, butit is connected to Jeniqua. There's a

(10:26):
kind of emphasis on a cookie cutterbeauty that we have in America. And
I'm not dissing America, but thereis, you know, sort of standards,
and there are certain standards in France, but there's not the kind of
emphasis on sameness around beauty that youhave in the United States, and that
is kind of connected to the Jenesequa, right, there's not a mandate to

(10:48):
be the same and pressure to kindof look the same. You know,
there's all kinds of different expressions ofbeauty that emerge absolutely, and it reminds
me a little bit of I mightbe pushing this too far, but I
know there were a lot of preconceivednotions and stereotypes about French women of like,
oh, they don't wash, theydon't shave, they have dirty hair,
and it's like, well, no, I mean they do obviously,

(11:11):
and everybody has their own relationship withtheir own hygiene and what they how much
effort they want to put into things. But I feel like there's not a
lot of French women who get superobsessed with orthodontia or with having perfect hair
or a full face of makeup allthe time. Like it's very easy to
say, oh, my hair isdirty for me yesterday, I'll just put

(11:31):
it up and go out and puton a fantastic scarf and that'll be my
chic of the day. That couldbe why a lot of French women have
used to wear buns. Oh that'strue too. I'm just thinking as imagining
someone you know, with her puttingher up. But yeah, I mean
I think I think you're right.And I think some of these you know,
weird American perceptions of the French,like around hygiene, and they're very

(11:54):
backwards, you know. I whenI gave birth to both my kids actually
in France, some of my Americanfriends it seemed like they were even astounded
that there were hospitals in France.You know, I had to correct them
and say, actually, the healthcaresystem in France is much better than the
United States. Chomp on mat fora bit, you know. But there's
these weird, embedded, old fashionednotions about the French, and I'm really

(12:16):
I'm sure there's the origins are historicand interesting and socio cultural. But they
don't serve. They don't serve anyone. They certainly don't serve the friend.
So tell me a little bit aboutthe sort of journey of understanding that transpired
for you around this term genesse quabbetween your first and your second book,
and this kind of widening of yourunderstanding of it from just being about French

(12:37):
women to being about you know,more than that. Well, part of
it is related to the type ofbook I was writing and the editorial constraints
I had. The first book wasactually commissioned by a packager, so they
wanted a certain kind of book,and they approached me because they had read
a lot of the writing I publishedwhen I was over there, and this

(12:58):
was a while ago, and they, you know, they were like,
French women are going to be thenext big thing, and we want a
book called. At the time,I think the title was how to Be
a French Girl. And I pushedback and I said, I can't,
I can't write that kind of book. I can't, I can't write that,
you know, And we ended upchanging the title to Entreneur, a

(13:18):
Woman's Guide Defining her Inner French Girl, and we focused more on archetypes,
but there was still an emphasis fromthe packager to focus on stereotypes. So
that first book I had a narrowerlens. My second book, I was
given way more latitude to explore andgo deeper into sociology and you know,

(13:39):
various areas that were a little lessfluffy, shall we say, And so
that allowed me to reach out tovarious people. I'm trying to think of
some of the French women who Ispoke to, but I spoke to a
lot of French women about these topicsand really went deeper for this second book.
And of course I've had my ownlived experience for so long, for

(14:01):
decades, right, and I havea lot of French friends, men,
women, and over time, youknow, there's just more experiences and more
opportunities to explore some of these ideas. If you're enjoying this episode of Navigating
the French, you may also beinterested in our sister podcast, story Time
in Paris, where each week hostJennifer interviews a different author. Navigating in

(14:26):
the French will be right back afteraward from our sponsors, and now back
to Navigating the French. I thinkalso you assume you live in Paris,
correct, and you live in Paris, yeah, so you rarely see the
stereotype of the traditional Parisian chic womanwearing high heels, except in you know,

(14:48):
maybe you know one Alan Deisment,right, you know, they're not
really French women come in all shapesand sizes and colors, and you know
so, and the more you livethere, the more you see that.
So I'm not sure if I'm answeredyour question, but it's just you know,
in writing these two books, thesecond book, having more time,
spending more time in France, havingmore latitude to explore these ideas in a

(15:09):
book really kind of deepened my appreciationand understanding of shinequa and what it really
means in terms of you know,nuance and so forth. I mean,
even I'm going to digress, butit's still connected. Like in the notions
that the French have around love andromance and relationships, there's a certain genesseequa
about how they negotiate and navigate relationshipscompared to Americans. I was really interested

(15:35):
when I in my earlier years,and I wrote about this, I think
in my second book, when Ifor the first time was with a young
woman who was picking pedals off offlower and you know, in the United
States we say he loves me,he loves me not, he loves me,
he loves me not. And shesaid in French he loves me a
little, a lot, passionately,madly, not at all. That was
her So I thought, that's fascinating. I thought she had actually made that

(16:03):
up. But in fact, no, this is how French women do it
with love. Right. There's agamut of nuance. There's a range,
there's you know, from he lovesme to not at all, right,
And I think there's something in thatthat is also connected to jenese qua.
This might sound very abstract, butfor me, it's all connected. And
is it connected because of that layerednuance? Is it connected because it's not

(16:26):
a binary Yes, exactly, becausegenes qua is something that's hard to pin
down, something that's a little elusive, something that is nuanced, right,
and so, and that's also connectedto like the whole psyche and the difference
between the French, you know,Americans like you know, shades of gray
versus black and white, or theFrench are very private. We're more public,

(16:47):
we like more. They do lesswith more or sorry more with less.
So these contradictions between Americans and Frenchand these nuances that can coexist in
French culture I think elude us butalso intrigue us. And they're all around
j sequa, like what is that? And they do intrigue us, but
they also I think infuriate us.I mean, if you meet American expats

(17:11):
who are living in France, someof the pieces of French culture that infuriate
expats so much are these sort ofnuanced answers, these this lack of a
clear cut response that we're so usedto in America. I mean, we
have such a complicated relationship with thisthing that we so emulate and desire but

(17:33):
also makes us so crazy, verytrue, very true, and it can't
be infuriating. I think it alsoI'm not sure if this is connected to
Jinesequa, you can tell me,but I think the French what's infuriating for
a lot of Americans is the Frenchreally don't care if you like them like
you know, they don't. There'sthey don't need to be like other people,

(17:57):
and they don't need to be likedthe way that we Americans do culturally
kind of strive for that, andthat's infuriating, I think for Americans and
there's kind of a jensqua around thattoo, Like to not care what somebody
else thinks of you is infuriating forAmericans, I think it is, And
I think that's linked to another pieceof this that I think when you were

(18:19):
saying, you know that Americans theway that we sort of present ourselves.
I think Americans are really good atpackaging ourselves because of the sort of social
media motivated world we live in,but also just because I think of the
way that American media has worked evenbefore social media. We're really good at
sound bites. We're really good atexplaining who we are in a couple of

(18:40):
sentences. And the French are notthat good at it, nor do they
seem as though they desire to begood at it. And that might also
be this Jena sequa. The Frenchrefuse to define themselves as easily as we
do, and therefore everything that makesthem so cool in our eyes is difficult
to put a finger on. Absolutely. And you know, when I was

(19:00):
researching my second book, I spokewith this French woman who'd lived a long
time in the United States. Sheraised kids here. We were sort of
opposite in terms of where we grewup and where we lived, and we
were talking about the notion of popularity. You know in the United States,
when you're going to speak of younggirls, right that being popular is really
important being liked by it. AsI said, being liked and being like

(19:21):
everyone and being popular, there's alot of pressure around that. And I
was talking to this French woman andshe said, you know, it's just
the opposite in France. If everybodylikes you and you're smiling too much and
you're like everyone up, there's somethingwrong with you. There's something suspicious about
you. Like they don't grow upwith this mandate to be popular and to
be clubby. And you know,that's a whole other conversation. So to

(19:45):
your point, they you know,when there's the pressure to be popular and
to appeal to everyone, to beliked by, when there's a certain packaging
of yourself that's involved in that effort. Imagine growing up in a culture with
that doesn't exist. You don't reallycare, right, So you're cultivating other
aspects of your personality or persona,and it's what is it, I don't

(20:07):
know, it's a solusive right.It becomes these cultural states of being that
we call French but we can't putour finger on it. Wow, what
is it? Yeah, but packaging. That's a good point, because we
are very good at that, Americans, We're almost too good at it,
I think. Well, I mean, it's yeah, side of socioeconomics.
It's sights to our entire right.It's got big, big ramifications that sadly,

(20:32):
I don't think they play out verywell overall. But I mean,
yeah, I know, in myjournalism job, I often interview people and
they'll tell me something that sounds reallyauthentic, and I'm sure it is,
except that then I'll find that samequote in some other article and realize they've
just found the SoundBite that works,and they're saying the same sentence over and
over and over again to different Soit's fortunate, and I think, you

(20:55):
know, the notion of authenticity hasalso become really a tired cliche in the
United States. I think also that'sps you know why Americans love France so
much. There's still a certain authenticityin France, although it's changing quite a
bit, quite rapidly, but youstill get a sense of the unpackaged,
the authentically distressed, the you know, the true authenticity behind the word authenticity.

(21:21):
You know, you still have inFrance. These become cliches very quickly
in the United States, and thenthey get recycled. They do, and
I think it's tempting to think.I mean, you know, I'm in
this constant questioning state living in Franceand trying always to question my own preconceived
notions and stereotypes, because I thinkit's tempting to fall into those well tried

(21:42):
paths. And yet you were sayingabout the French not caring if they're liked.
It reminded me of this thing thatsomeone told me when I first moved
here about why you don't smile atstrangers in France, and it's because they
think that there's something wrong with you. If you're smiling vacantly at strangers,
They're like, what do you have? There's something fake about it. So

(22:03):
I think there's something maybe a littlebit mysterious, that we emulate about the
French, and maybe that authenticity,that thing of I don't need to smile
at you just because we've made eyecontact. I don't like smiling, so
I don't have to smile, andnow I won't, And there's something I
think maybe that seems a little braveor daring in that two Americans who've been

(22:23):
raised to be to want to beso liked absolutely brave and daring and also
open to all kinds of misperceptions.Right, Oh, they don't like me.
Also, you know, not caringif somebody likes you or not.
It goes back to this notional selfprivacy. There's I think the French covet
privacy way more than Americans do.We're much more confessional and public. And

(22:47):
you know, so between not reallycaring if people like you and not putting
on a fake smile because you don'tneed to, there's no mandate to do
that, and coveting your private garden, there's a lot that is elusive for
Americans that is connected to this termjin saqua like what is that? This
is very hard to pin down,and I'm going to ask you to to
try and pin it down because Ithink it's one of those It's like,

(23:10):
we love it so much because ofits elusiveness, and I think we as
Americans think about it a lot morethan the French do, because, as
you so actually said, the Frenchdon't care so much about self improvement,
and we very much do. Butif there were some elements of the ways
that the French live their life accordingto this qua that we so covet as

(23:32):
Americans. Are there any I don'tknow, habits, mantras, norms,
characteristics, things that the French dothat that give them this jena sequa that
we as Americans could maybe take onboard to have some of that spirit in
our own lives. Does that makesense? I think so? Yeah.

(23:56):
In other words, how my Americansor Anglo sex and work a little bit
of that genes se qua into theirown lives precisely? You know, that's
a tough question because because there's suchhuge cultural differences between us, and I
think also they're also socio political.I think growing up in a culture where

(24:17):
there's a very solid infrastructure of socialbenefits that create a certain level of comfort,
and where the culture gives you permissionto take four or six weeks of
vacation, not only permission, theygive you like you get your salary and
you get to like have a life. Like there's an emphasis on having a
life versus making a living, andthose differences go a long way, I

(24:38):
think in feeding that genes se quaand that kind of freedom and that kind
of effortlessness and not caring. Justthe very nature of French culture is so
different that it's really hard to answerthat question. It's a really great question,
I think, for I were writinga self help book around that,
I think the without using the wordauthenticity because it's become so hackneyed, I

(25:02):
would say that, particularly for Americanwomen, to really try and cultivate the
art of not caring in a benignway, right, in a benevolent not
caring, like more about self explorationand having personal agency and owning your power
as a woman, as a person, as an individual, embracing your idiosyncrasies,
embracing your imperfections. That's courageous.In the United States, I think

(25:27):
it's an act of courage. Icoutely agree, and I would say that
to people like that, do that. If somebody doesn't like you, that's
okay, that's not your problem.That's their problem. Let that be their
problem, not yours. You don'tneed to change yourself to be liked by
that person, you know. Iwould kind of go down that path with

(25:48):
Americans, like I'm thinking of whatI would say to my daughter, you
know, who's kind of has bothcultures already going on but I think that
is what really imbues the French women. Let's talk at French women with that
sheniesequa. But I do think it'svery for most Americans, it really is
connected to style. But again,think about the gienis se qua. It's
always an effortless there's always a sortof not caringness, but very sophisticated not

(26:15):
caring. This I think it saysthough Americans are working so hard behind the
scenes to come off as in acertain way that we admire the French because
it seems as though they're not tryingat all. And maybe they're trying,
or maybe they're not, but thereality is when they try, they try
for themselves and they really mean it. When they say I wear this for
me, I feel like it's authentic, it's true, it is true.

(26:37):
Yeah, I mean, the Frenchare infuriating in other ways. It's not
to say that the French aren't judgmental. They're very judgmental in just different ways
than Americans. But you know,I don't want to come off as romanticizing
the French or exalting them, andyou know, because they're legitimately infuriating in
many ways, and they're very judgmentalof one another, and there's a lot
of stuffy protocol. There can belike a rigidity in the culture because it's

(27:03):
an old culture that you don't haveit all. There's a lot of things
that are frustrating and that where theyou know, French look to to us
for kind of inspiration. It kindof goes both ways. Yeah, No,
I think one thing that has beenreally eye opening in doing this podcast
is sort of learning the ways inwhich obviously we do emulate the French for
certain things, and then there areother things that are very infuriating. Like

(27:26):
you know, they could be quitenegative. They can complain a lot about
things, and they are judgmental,you're right, of other people. But
I still do feel as though forpeople who are interested in hearing a little
bit more about sort of how Frenchwomen grapple with this. We have episodes
on La Parisian and La frances thatI can link to in the show notes.
But I mean it comes back tothe same points that we're talking about,
which is there's not quite so muchof a self improvement pressure or a

(27:51):
pressure to be perfect. So youcan judge you, but you aren't being
held to a standard of perfection right, or popular, or like other people
likeable, even there's not the oppressionof sameness, you know, and that's
very liberating, right, And soI think that you drill down to the
core of what's behind you in asaqua, it's not just how does she

(28:14):
just throw her scarf on like that? What is sion sua like her look?
And it's deeper than that, youknow, It's just it's deeper.
Amazing. Well, Deborah, ithas been such a pleasure to talk with
you about this. I'm sure thatour reader our listeners rather are going to
very much enjoy reading your books.I'm going to put links to them in
the show notes as well. Isthere anywhere else that people can find you?

(28:36):
Follow you? Are you on Instagram? Twitter? Where do you shape
your pinions into the world. I'mnot I'm one of those social media anarchists,
not really, but yeah, Inever got on that bandwagon. I
never liked it, and that's beenjust I mean, I'm on Instagram,
but I'm more of a voyeur,you know, on my website, which
is in the process of being completelyre hauled. But that's really where people

(28:57):
can find me and my books.Are you know, on Amazon? And
Barnes and Noble and every place wonderfulbooks are found. That's where people will
find me. Perfect well, thenthat's where we will send you. If
you want to read more from Deborahand all of her insightful notions about life
and femininity and being a woman inFrance, that is where you can find
her. And thank you so muchfor joining me today. It's been such

(29:19):
a pleasure. I really appreciated gettingyour perspective on this. Thank you,
Emily. It was delightful. Thankyou so much. Thank you. This
has been Navigating the French. Youcan find more from me Emily Monico at
Emily Underscore in Underscore France, onTwitter and Instagram. This podcast is produced
by Paris Underground Radio. To listento other episodes of this podcast, or

(29:42):
to discover more podcasts like it,please visit Paris Underground Radio dot com.
Thanks for listening and abjentu. Thisepisode of Navigating the French was produced by
Jennifer Garrity for Paris Underground Radio.For more great content, join us on
Patreon at Patreon dot com slash ParisUnderground Radio