Ep 71 -Navigating “Populaire” with Debra Ollivier

If you grew up worrying the world was a popularity contest, get yourself to France, where the word populaire is better translated as "working class" or literally, "of the people." Without an apt translation for "popular," French society governs itself by different principles, which author Debra Ollivier is more than ready to unpack.


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Credits 
Host: Emily Monaco. @Emily_in_France; Website: http://www.tomatokumato.com and http://www.emilymmonaco.com
Producer: Jennifer Geraghty. @jennyphoria; Website: http://jennyphoria.com

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About Us 
From one Emily in Paris to another... just speaking French isn't enough to understand the intricacies of the locals, but it's definitely a good place to start. Famously defended by armed "immortals" of the Académie Française (no, we're not making this up) the French language is filled with clues that show interested outsiders what, exactly, makes the French tick. 

Each episode, listen in as Emily Monaco and an expert take a deep dive into a word that helps us gain a keener understanding of the French.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
You are listening to Navigating the Frenchon Paris Underground Radio. For more great
content and a bonus episode of Navigatingthe French, please join us on Patreon.
Hello and welcome to Navigating the French, the podcast where each episode we
take a look at a French wordand try and see what it tells us

(00:22):
about French culture. I'm your host, Emily Monico. Today I'm chatting with
Debra Olivier, author of What FrenchWomen Know. She's here to dive deep
into a cognate who's wildly different meaningsin French and English offer a bit of
insight into how the French perceive oneanother and wish to be perceived. Put

(00:43):
you there what Welcome back to thepodcast, Debra. Thank you, it's
great to be here. I amso so glad you're back because on our
last episode together we just barely sortof touched the surface of one of the
biggest false friends that I had toencounter when I first moved here. Because

(01:03):
you see, I moved here whenI was fourteen years old, and the
word populaire and popular were very veryconcerning to me at fourteen, as they
are to so many American girls.But of course there's a it's a big
false friend. In France, populaireand popular might look very similar and they
mean super different things. So rightoff the bat, what do you see

(01:26):
as the major differences in definition butalso in connotation between populaire and popular.
Well, there's a really basic,fundamental difference. If you take the word
populaire just strictly in the French,I don't even want to say vernacular,
I means it has a political connotation. It means working class. That was

(01:49):
the original when I say original whenI was living in France. I've lived
on and off since the nineties,but that's what populaire meant, and hence
le popular Front Right, which wasa alliance of working class and left wing
parties fighting for democracy, right andagainst fascism. So the word populaire was
in there, and that was reallyworking class of the people, nothing at

(02:15):
all to do with being popular.As we American girls women people understand the
word right. So like I alsohad the same problem when I first went
to France, which was actually beforeI even lived there, when I was
a student, so it was likepopular, you know, like what,
So it does not at all havethe same linguistic roots or sociocultural roots for

(02:39):
starters, and I think, youknow, that's something that the sort of
political context of it is really interesting, because I think the longer you live
here, the more you realize thatthere's a political side to it. But
these days you also see it inthings like I see it in my job
as a food journalist, people talkingabout lubistros populaire, And it's really easy

(02:59):
to look at that and think peoplemean a popular bistro, a bistro people
like to go to. But it'sactually more about it being you know,
well priced, or you know,catering to a certain I don't know,
socioeconomic group. It's very, verydifferent. I think it's one of the
most different cognates I've found in mythree years of doing this podcast. Yeah,

(03:21):
it's like for the people. It'slike for the people, it's means
we're not a shishi bistro, we'renot snooty, we do not we are
not on the schanz dz or evenfrankly in the Latin quarter. Right,
that's what it means. It meanswe relate to you where of the people
were cool. Right. But yeah, it's really easy I get the tourists,
you would think, oh wow,this is a really popular place where

(03:43):
everyone likes to go and it's supertrendy. It's not that, even though
they do frankly become trendy in theirown ways, but very different. Yeah.
So I think the fact that theword popular in French has a translation,
or at least as I translation intoEnglish, as working class. I
mean, it doesn't carry all ofthe connotation of popula, I think,

(04:04):
but it carries a big chunk ofit. But going the other way,
I think it's actually quite difficult.I couldn't find I couldn't think of a
word in French that would replace theEnglish popular. Yeah, because there is
no word, you know, there'sno there's no concept, right, I
mean, the word is really loadedand also nuanced in the Anglo Saxon mind,

(04:28):
but there's really no word in Frenchthat has the same connotations because they
don't exist in France. They reallydon't. I mean I was talking to
a couple of friends of mine recently, like, Okay, well you know,
does that word change, Like whatdoes popula or popular mean? And
for what would be the closest Frenchword to how we Americans construe popular or

(04:53):
popularity and invariable. It was like, well likable, you know, like
that person's likable, which is nothingto not have the annotations of being popular,
right, not at all. Ithink that's one of the things that's
reassuring when you're a teenager who isn'tpopular, is that you think to yourself,
well, someday the fact that I'mlikable will be enough. Then it
doesn't compete, it doesn't. It'sthat coolness, This idea is being cool.

(05:16):
I haven't worried about being cool insuch a long time, but now
I'm thinking about it, and it'sgiving me adjita. You know that it's
you know, there's actually a realtwist here, frankly, which is that
is a very liberating twist if youcan get your head around it, which
is difficult if you're American. Butfrankly, if you're popular in France in
the American way that it's construed,there's something sort of wrong with you.

(05:39):
You're actually not cool because you're you'resort of like everyone. There's a certain
blandness to you. There's actually cachetin not being liked by everyone and not
being like everyone. So when yougrow up with that as a teenager or
young girl. You know, that'sall a lot more liberating than trying to

(06:01):
figure out how can I be likedby everyone? How can I look like
everyone? How can I still beauthentic to myself? Which is also right,
that's like who knows how to dothat when you're focused on trying to
be liked by other people and belike them. So it's really the opposite
in France. You know, ifyou're liked by everyone's there's nothing authentic about

(06:23):
you, never mind sexy, whichdovetails into another topic that we touched on,
which is Julie led right, theidea that there's something interesting in being
different, right, and even beingsmart right, smart is sexy. That's
a cliche, but that's sort ofstill true in France. So anyway,
coming full circle, like, yeah, when you're fourteen in America and fourteen
in France, you have two differentmindsets. It's changing in France, but

(06:46):
you know we're speaking in broad terms, so yeah, absolutely, and I
think, I mean, obviously itis changing, and I think that there's
certainly influence from the media that mightbe changing things. You know, you
see things like the movie Mean Girlsbeing released in Ants, well, Obviously
there has to be some sort ofcultural understanding of what that movie is about.
That movie really is about people tryingto be popular. So the fact

(07:10):
that that exists and that people wentand saw it means that they understand the
concept. And yet I think ifwe sort of zero in, I'm curious,
is popularity as it's evoked by youngas you said, Anglophone or maybe
even just American women a thing?Do French girls and French women care about

(07:32):
being popular or even about being liked? And if not, what do they
want people to see them as?What do they want the reason people are
directing their gaze at them to beWell, probably they want to be perceived
as too cool to be concerned aboutbeing popular for starters, And I want
to circle back to the thing aboutmean girls in France. Appeal in France,

(07:54):
it's just that not that they're tryingto be popular, but that they're
just mean, you know French,that's another you know, like being mean.
As we know French have a reputationfor being I mean, mean,
cold, standoffish, nonchalant, rightmisconstrued as mean, and they can relative
to Americans who are very much aboutbeing positive and have a nice day,

(08:16):
even if you hate the person,right. The French don't do that,
so they come off as mean.So I think I think Mean Girls is
as much about how weird it isgirls trying to be popular with just the
phenomenon of being mean, you know, But too, I don't there's there's
really I think that for French women, it's really about, like I said,

(08:37):
being so much in your own senseof self and owning your personal agency
and just really not giving a damn. It's kind of a fine art to
that and that's what makes you,I mean, I wouldn't say popular,
but that's what makes you alluring,you know, I have in my book.
I thought you mentioned the mean Girls. I was fascinated when The Bachelor

(08:58):
that for France. I was like, You've got to be kidding, right,
because of course everything in the UnitedStates, pop culture goes everywhere,
and the French still like ingest it, right, and I'm looking at but
I wanted to quote. I actuallyinterviewed the producer of the show, a
guy named Alexei de Jimini, about, like, you know, what he
found was the most sort of outstandingdifference between American women and their French counterparts

(09:22):
and I'm going to quote from mybooks. I devetails with this. He
wrote, quote, American women havea natural talent to act like they're natural.
This is something you Americans grow uplearning how to do. French women
are just the opposite. They appreciateconflict and don't give what you think of
them. There's a strong tendency notto be liked, but to like who

(09:43):
you are and to try to showthat. And I thought that is the
best quote. The guy totally wasnot prompted. He's a French producer,
probably just trying to make a buckon canan plus or whatever, but I
thought that nailed it totally. Yeah, and so, you know, a
strong tendency not to be liked,but to like who you are and try

(10:05):
to show that. Well, howdo you do that? And there's a
whole self help industry around that inthe United States as we know, and
self help which is very ironic becauseit's all about how to be authentic,
and then it becomes so inauthentic,right because everyone's trying to be authentic in
the same ways. So it's prettymuch a product I think of marketing and

(10:26):
capitalism and all that. But yeah, there's so just you know, who
are you figure that out and showthat and own it. And even if
you're quirky, even if you're juallyled, even if you're you know whatever.
Again, that goes back to Ithink we talked about that, and
when we're talking about Jenna Sequa,there's also the term jumofu, like like,

(10:48):
I don't give a damn what youthink. Probably there's a different word
than dam but I don't know.If we can say it on your podcast,
we can call it explicit, wecan get an explicit tick mark on
it, you know. I mean, there's different ways of translating that.
I don't give it f or Idon't give a damn. It's somewhere right.
But so the German fatima is like, well, I don't really give

(11:09):
a damn what you think, Andthat's that's an important Sorry. I'm going
to stop you there because I thinkthat linguistically is so interesting. Basically taking
a phrase will keep it pg.I don't give a damn. They've turned
it into a noun. I don'tgive a damn ism right, So it's
a great nown great great And theword you know, the verb that is

(11:33):
you know that is an explicit word. It's it's very loaded, you know,
and it goes deep and it's kindof fun when you use it as
a noun. And I think thatsort of idea of a being authentic and
genuine to who you are and bnot needing to be so liked might contribute

(11:54):
to why, you know, whenyou were talking about oh, you have
to be unique, but everybody tryingto be unique. And I was thinking
about growing up as a millennial beingtold, oh, you have to be
the girl next door, you haveto be the smart one. You know,
there's all of these little tropes thatyou can fit into. And I
remember meeting French friends when I hadfirst moved back here, so you know,
in university and saying, oh,you know, were you a jock?

(12:16):
Were you a nerd? And theywould sort of look at me like
quah, Like they don't want tobe part of a club, They don't
want to be part of a group. They don't want to ascribe to being
one of many, whether that's popularor a nerd or whatever it is.
Well, that brings up a reallygood point about the idea of belonging,
which is also much more American thanFrench. Like, think about it,

(12:37):
you talked about the university. Unlessthis has changed very recently. There's no
such thing as fraternities and sororities inFrance the way they are. In fact,
there aren't really campuses, which iskind of a drag. I mean,
there aren't some times, but lessso one is not really a campus
the way we construe them in theUnited States. But in any case,
so there's no fraternities or sororities,there's no space or even to create clubby

(13:01):
that sort of clubbiness that you have, which is clubbiness, but it's also
belonging and it's great and it's fine. I'm not saying that with any judgment
to it, right, but wedo covet belonging and it could be.
And now I'm going way out ona limb. You tell me what you
think I do it like, we'rea very young country compared to France,

(13:22):
right, and where everyone's from everywhere, and most people are sort of you
know, the roots don't go thatfar before we're actually in Europe, right,
So there's not a sense of ancestralconnection or belonging, even though you
know, there's a whole rise ofnationalism in this country that's really scary and
you know, being an American whateverthat means. But really, if you've

(13:43):
step back Americans, we're a newcountry. We don't have the connection to
like Tehroi. That's another that's ahard word to describe. Also, we
actually have for anyone who's interested inTaiohoa, We've got an episode in season
one with Fred Puyo about Taiowa.It's a fascinating, crazy word. I
love it. But can listen tothat because that's something that's very You have

(14:05):
to have a connection to the landand a generational connection that goes back,
you know. So the French havethat to a point where they probably don't
really want to belong anymore. LikeI remember my ex husband was like,
you know, grew up in thesame village where god knows how many generations
grew up, and it was likeI don't want to belong like I don't
want everyone in the village to knowwho I am. I don't need to

(14:26):
belong to the church or this orthat or it's actually like screw that,
right, because that's like so imbuedin French culture. And again I'm going
out on a limb. I'm goingto listen to that ta podcast. But
the belonging thing is very American andit dovetails with popularity because when you're popular,
you belong to a big group.Right, You're really safe. Everyone

(14:50):
likes you, you're part of everyonesupports you. That's a big belonging with
a big be If you're enjoying thisepisode of Navigating the French, may also
be interested in our sister podcast,Paris, a State of Mind, where
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(15:11):
right back after award from our sponsors, and now back to Navigating the French.
I was fascinating. I tried toexplain what a fraternity and a sorority
was when I was in France,and they looked at me with blank stares.
What are you talking about? Wedon't know what you're talking about.

(15:31):
That has not changed, right,I mean, and there's no campuses.
I mean, not really well,but that's also why I think a lot
of Europeans do love coming to theUnited States. I mean, our university
system, aside from being ridiculously expensive, is pretty wonderful in that regard with
these you know, kind of worldsunto themselves on a campus, it's pretty

(15:52):
awesome. But yeah, that doesn'texist. But the fraternity sorority thing,
the belonging, that being part ofa group, that being popular, and
of course to be in a sororityof fraternity, I mean talk about popularity.
I mean there's a whole hazing thing. There's a hole you've got to
go through, hoops to conform toa certain way of being to be accepted

(16:15):
into the fraternity or the sorority orthe club or whatever. And again that's
very unFrench. Yeah, not alot of secret societies. A lot of
dining clubs, but not a lotof secret societies, no, exactly,
because you know, if you scratchthe surface deep enough. Of course,
like belonging in who you belong to, that is very important in France,

(16:36):
but in a very different way,in a much more subtle way and inscrutable
way compared to the American way oflooking at that. Because yeah, there
are a lot of secret dining clubthere's also all kinds of generational belonging that
goes very deep and is impenetrable ifyou're not French, which is a key
thing there being French, so there'sa lot connected with that word definitely.

(17:00):
So there's this mindset of popular,which is the first one that comes to
my mind, and I think thatis because I grew up as a girl
in the nineties and two thousands inthe United States. But then I think
when I think about popular as well, I think about it in terms of
popularity of people in the public sphere. So you think about actresses or politicians
whose I mean at least politicians actorsis maybe to a lesser extent, but

(17:23):
still sell to a certain extent.Their entire career is predicated on the fact
of being popular, which in thiscase feels more closely linked with the word
likable. Although I suppose there arecertain politicians that are popular because they make
people angry. But for the mostpart, I think that people in the
public eye cultivate a public facing imageso that they will be popular. And

(17:51):
I feel like that is also quitean American thing, Like I don't think
that British actors concern themselves quite somuch about whether they're like as American actors
do. But I don't know whatyour perception of sort of the French public
person's awareness of his or her popularityis I would think for front facing celebrities

(18:14):
of all varieties. In France it'scloser to the British way. I think
there's more emphasis on having a certaincachet versus being popular. There's another word
cachet. Really the roots of thatword are, you know, because there's
the I don't know if it's connectedto cachet with an er at the end,
you know, to hide. It'sinteresting. I never thought about that

(18:36):
anyway. I think that it's reallyabout cachet. But there's still the same
cultural framework here. There's not thatkind of emphasis on being likable and being
like everyone and having a massive fanbase or rallying a movement around you.
I mean, the political world isone thing, and it's so vastly different

(18:56):
from what goes on in France thatit's will stray into really you know,
whole other turf there. But whenit comes to celebrities and people, cultural
figures and so forth, I dothink it's about cachet. It's about again,
like that guy Alan Angiemi said,you know, liking who you are
and trying to show that. Andif you look at people like traditionally,

(19:18):
like some of the old school celebrities, women like Catherine Dinnov or Brigitte Baldeaux.
Like Bridget Baldeaux, she famously reviledbeing in the public awe and in
fact, the French there's a veryinteresting article about Bridget Bardeaux written by Simon
de Beauvois in Esquire magazine that's sofascinating about how French women, French in

(19:40):
general, perceived Bridget Bardeaux. Hewas not popular, and she was considered
feral and actually working class, eventhough she wasn't because she's so she sort
of defied social conventions in her free, wild, you know, semi naked
presence on the steage. So BridgetBardot, you take from her, you

(20:03):
know, go from there to CatherineDinnov who had a very sort of talk
about jamal foutism, a certain cold, icy, frosty you know, remove
from the public glare or glance orgaze, gaze, That's what I'm looking
for, even like Isabel Ubert.And then you continue to yet know,
I mean, if you look atthe like, they are not. These
women are not out there strutting themselvesand trying to be a big name on

(20:29):
the stage, Like, I don'tknow pick an American equivalent. I'm thinking
of musicians, so that's not afair analogy, like you know, Beyonce
or I don't know, Taylor Swiftor whatever. But if you look at
actresses, I'm not sure what theequivalent would be. But generally, culturally
speaking, my sense is to saythat the French again are doing the opposite.

(20:52):
Yeah. I tend to think aboutpeople like maybe Anne Hathaway or Jennifer
Jennifer what's her face from the UngerGames, Blake and on her name too,
Jennifer something where you feel like theyare definitely cultivating a persona to appeal
to a wide range of people,and you might not actually know who they
are. And I'm not saying Iknow who Brigitte Bardout is, but I

(21:14):
also don't feel like she was cultivatinga persona. No, I really don't
think she was either, And ifyou read about her, you know that's
substantiate and all the reading and everythingshe's written about. I mean, she's
obviously, we know, not particularlylikable. She doesn't care either. I
mean she's politically she's kind of alightning roder. She used to be.
Now who knows, right. Ohwell, I think she had quite a

(21:36):
lot to say that was pretty unpopularduring the me too movement, right,
and she didn't care that and thatwas kind of what was refreshing, is
that you don't feel like you needto toe the party line to a certain
extent. No, there's a veryfunny Saturday Night Live. Yes, I
mean it's kind of all right there, you know, and they're smoking and
drinking and they're not looking kind ofput together like an Anne Hathaway or smiling

(21:59):
or you know, with the white, bright white teeth and the perfect hair
and the you know, the wholething. And it's also interesting to notice
how some of these French actresses haveaged, Yeah, including my goodness Bridget
Bardo, right, who just saidno to a lot of traditional enhancements.
Shall we say that American women doour American celebrities, let's say, actress

(22:21):
and so forth, people in thepublic eye to maintain a certain popularity allure.
I find that interesting too, Ido too, but it's very different.
So okay, So I like tobelieve that we are in a time
where, you know, where weas women are getting back in touch with
our or not getting back in touchyou know, reviling this long term competition

(22:45):
where we've been pitted against each otherand we're finally, you know, learning
to celebrate one another. However,there is still a certain amount of competition
that I feel, maybe less thanbefore, but sort of reigns over American
women's relationships with one another. AndI think that that is fueled to a

(23:06):
certain extent by the fact that we'vebeen so concerned with popularity for such a
long time. So if popularity oreven likability doesn't govern the relationships between French
women in the same way as itdoes in the US, is there still
competition among French women? Are theystill competing with one another, you know,

(23:26):
with their peers for something that's notthis sort of popularity prom queen crown
type thing. That's a really goodquestion, I think, at the risk
of floating into generalities, because it'ssuch a big topic and there's so many
different nuances to that, and everyFrench woman is different, So speaking very

(23:48):
very generally, I think that inthe context of popularity, women do compete
with one another. American women competewith one another and to try and look
good and look a certain way,and the hair it's really for the gaze
of other women, to be allright in the gaze of other women.
Even though there appeal to men,women are the judge there whereas in France

(24:08):
it's more for men. There's aculture of seduction that goes very deep.
There's a whole different relationship between thesexes quote isa quote unquote, because that
word is also changing with you know, gender nuance and so forth. But
I think traditionally and generally French womenhave competed with one another around men,

(24:29):
so to be seductive to a man, to have more of the male attention.
They're oriented that way again figuring outdrilling down into who they are and
owning who they are. But visaVI seducing a man in the context of
you know, if we're talking aboutcompetition the way you described it, thinking
I want to look a certain wayand I need to do this because I

(24:52):
want to look really pretty, soyou know, Sophie or you know,
Laurie or whatever will think I'm coolor popular. It's really I think geared
toward the role of seduction and thetraditional male female courtship kind of dynamic.
So then do you feel as thoughthe friendships and again I know we're speaking

(25:14):
in very broad terms, because everybody'san individual. But do you feel as
like the friendships between women in Americaare different than the friendships the close friendships
between women in France. That's reallyhard to say, you know, because
I've heard French women or the Frenchin general just criticize Americans for being very
superficial. You know, we're allsuperficial, our friendships are superficial, et

(25:37):
cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I kind of think that's bullshit.
I mean, I think Americans cancome off as being superficial on the surface,
right, like in the public domain, you know, the Hi,
how are you, I'm doing great, you look great, you know,
like have a nice day, youknow, that whole thing. But I
think when it comes to deep friendshipsthat are cultivated over the years, that

(25:57):
are truly authentic, I think thatthey I think they transcend culture. And
again this is general and these arelike who knows, right, there's no
instrument to gauge this. Of course, I think it does take longer,
for sure, to cultivate enduring friendshipswith French people, French women. It's

(26:18):
partly as an outsider when you comefrom another culture, and I think also
even within the culture itself. Frenchpeople invite you into their homes for dinner.
For example, Americans like go out, We go out and meet restaurants,
like to invite someone into their homeas an act, an intimate gesture
toward building a friendship, a truefriendship. So there's different like friendship rituals,
if you will, But I thinkonce you get to it, you

(26:40):
transcend a certain point where there's true, enduring friendship that's been built over the
years. I would venture to guessthe emotional ties are similar, and people
love one another, and they betrayone another, and they have fun together
and they disappoint one another in allcultures, you know. And I think,
I mean, that's what's been sointeresting and rewarding about doing this podcast
and talking with experts like yourself,is that you know, at the end

(27:03):
of the day, there are certaincultural acrobatics you have to perform if you
really want to meet people where theyare on their cultural level. But at
the end of the day, youknow, we're all people, we're all
humans. We want to like eachother, we want to love each other,
we want to get along. SoI think, yeah, that's a
really good point. Yeah, welove, we heard, we are in
pain, we have trump. Youknow everyone right, It's kind of the

(27:25):
you dig deep enough and you hitthe universal you know, water table.
And I also think and you mightexperience that being an American in France when
you speak the language really well,which you clearly do, like you kind
of maybe there's a shortcut to havingdeeper friendships with with French people because a
you speak their language, and alsoit's kind of a novelty right for them

(27:49):
to have an American who can negotiatetheir culture well and their language. That
opens a big door. I thinkthat is normally pretty shut if you can't
handle things like linguistically and culturally.I think it's true. I think you're
right. But I think also whatyou said earlier is very apt, which
is that American it's very easy tomake an oh my god, you're my

(28:14):
new best friend friend. In America, you know, you can go to
one clocktail party and have one reallygood conversation with somebody and suddenly you've got
a new friend. It takes longerin France. But I do feel like
once you've made a friend in France, you can piss each other off.
You can fight like sisters. They'restill the person who are going to come
pick you up on the side ofthe road at two am because your car
broke down and it's time. Butonce you get there, that's where you

(28:37):
get. Yeah. Absolutely. Ifyou're enjoying this episode of Navigating the French,
you may also be interested in oursister podcast, Storytime in Paris,
where each week host Jennifer interviews adifferent author. Navigating the French will be
right back after award from our sponsorsand now back to Navigating the French.

(29:00):
We did touch on something which maybeis related to popularity. You know,
we do say I love you reallylike, very facial like, in a
very facial fashion. In the UnitedI love you, You're my new bff.
Love you. We throw that wordaround, and that's also construed as
being very superficial by the French,and even I mean, I guess even
you know, one could suggest itis, but I think, well,

(29:25):
that's a type of a different Iceberg. But yeah, enduring friendships in France,
once you get there, you knowyou have a friend for life.
But again I kind of think it'strue also in the United States. I
think once you get to that pointin either country that's where you are.
I just think that French people don'tsay it until it's true. So it

(29:45):
means that you can feel quite lonelyat the beginning, right, but once
you've gotten there, you won't losethat. Whereas someone who says you're my
best friend in America might forget aboutyou tomorrow, well, they very well
could be your best friend at all. It's like a manner of speaking.
It's almost like a throwaway term.You know, it doesn't have any weight

(30:06):
in reality. But I think everyoneknows it the French. You know,
I'm thinking of my deep friendships andI have two with actually three. I
mean, I've known these French womenfor decades. It took a long time.
I mean, I don't even thinkwe've said you know, I really
love you. You know, that'ssomething that's hard, I think to say

(30:26):
in any culture. But yeah,your point is well taken. We would
say it here and not mean it, and everyone knows we don't mean it.
And in France, if they sayit, you've really earned it and
they really do mean it. Well, I mean, thank you so much
for coming back on and joining meto talk about an equally interesting topic.
Anybody who's just joining us now.Who wants to find out even more about

(30:48):
Deborah's fantastic insights into French culture shouldcheck out the episode on Jeana Sequax and
obviously pick up a copy of herbook, which is linked in the show
notes. Thank you again, Deborahfor joining. This was such a great
conversation. I really appreciate it.I've fantastic rest of your day. Thank
you you. Emily always a pleasure. Take care you'd see you hye bye

(31:11):
bye bye. This has been Navigatingthe French. You can find more from
me Emily Monico at Emily Underscore inUnderscore France, on Twitter and Instagram.
This podcast is produced by Paris UndergroundRadio. To listen to other episodes of
this podcast, or to discover morepodcasts like it, please visit Paris Underground
Radio dot com. Thanks for listeningand abjentu. This episode of Navigating the

(31:37):
French was produced by Jennifer Garrity forParis Underground Radio. For more great content,
join us on Patreon at Patreon dotcom slash Paris Underground Radio