October 27, 2024 • 39 mins
Maternity in English is most closely associated with pregnancy jeans, but here in France, maternité encapsulates not just where you give birth, but the entirety of motherhood. Here to delve into this and other cultural nuances of being a mom is journalist and American expat Caitlin Gunther.
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Credits
Host: Emily Monaco. @Emily_in_France; Website: http://www.tomatokumato.com and http://www.emilymmonaco.com
Producer: Jennifer Geraghty. @jennyphoria; Website: http://jennyphoria.com
Music Credits
Édith Piaf - La Vie en Rose (DeliFB Lofi Remix)
🎵 MSKD Sounds: https://www.instagram.com/mskd_sounds/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRql... https://soundcloud.com/mskd_sounds
🎵 DeliFB: https://www.youtube.com/c/DeliFB https://soundcloud.com/delifb https://www.instagram.com/cativo.kevin/ https://twitter.com/DeliciousFB
About Us
From one Emily in Paris to another... just speaking French isn't enough to understand the intricacies of the locals, but it's definitely a good place to start. Famously defended by armed "immortals" of the Académie Française (no, we're not making this up) the French language is filled with clues that show interested outsiders what, exactly, makes the French tick.
Each episode, listen in as Emily Monaco and an expert take a deep dive into a word that helps us gain a keener understanding of the French.
Join us on Patreon: patreon.com/parisundergroundradio
Find Us Online
Website: https://www.parisundergroundradio.com/navigatingthefrench
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/parisundergroundradio
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/parisundergroundradio/
Credits
Host: Emily Monaco. @Emily_in_France; Website: http://www.tomatokumato.com and http://www.emilymmonaco.com
Producer: Jennifer Geraghty. @jennyphoria; Website: http://jennyphoria.com
Music Credits
Édith Piaf - La Vie en Rose (DeliFB Lofi Remix)
🎵 MSKD Sounds: https://www.instagram.com/mskd_sounds/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRql... https://soundcloud.com/mskd_sounds
🎵 DeliFB: https://www.youtube.com/c/DeliFB https://soundcloud.com/delifb https://www.instagram.com/cativo.kevin/ https://twitter.com/DeliciousFB
About Us
From one Emily in Paris to another... just speaking French isn't enough to understand the intricacies of the locals, but it's definitely a good place to start. Famously defended by armed "immortals" of the Académie Française (no, we're not making this up) the French language is filled with clues that show interested outsiders what, exactly, makes the French tick.
Each episode, listen in as Emily Monaco and an expert take a deep dive into a word that helps us gain a keener understanding of the French.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You are listening to Navigating the French on Paris Underground Radio.
For more great content and a bonus episode of Navigating
the French, please join us on Patreon.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hello and welcome to Navigating the French, the podcast where
each episode we take a look at a French word
and try and see what it.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Tells us about French culture.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I'm your host, Emily Monico. Today I'm joined by Caitlyn Gunther,
a journalist, American expat and mom living in Paris.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
She's here to delve.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Into a word that in English is more often associated
with pregnancy, jeans, but here in France encapsulates the entirety
of motherhood. So welcome Caitlyn to the podcast. I am
super excited to have you on. Before we get started,
could you let our listeners know a little bit about
(00:52):
who you are and what you do here in Paris.
Speaker 4 (00:55):
Sure, I am a New Yorker in Paris. I will
always call my I save the New Yorker no matter
how long I live here. I've been here for about
six years and I'm a freelance journalist. I focus on
travel and food and lifestyle. When I came here, I
was more of a food writer, but travel just became
a natural progression and extension of that. So yeah, I
(01:17):
do a little bit more travel these days I have.
If I back up a little bit, my career path,
little Windy, I started out as a lawyer and then quit,
moved to Spain, worked in a few Michelin Star restaurants,
and went back to New York, started full time food writing,
and then met a French guy that in love, came
(01:39):
to Paris. We got married in New York and then
I moved to Paris with him, and yeah, I've been
here ever since, freelance writing, in the ground running.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
And you also have a little girl, and your sort
of transition into motherhood is part of what we're going
to be chatting about today. So this idea of matt
told with is in French the word for motherhood but
also the word for maternity. So it's a little bit
of a false friend for us Anglophones.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
You know.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
I was wondering, first of all, if you can sort
of help us figure out the different ways that we
use the word mattalite in French, because I know that
in English we think a lot of maternity clothing, but
it's used in a lot of other different sort of
areas in France, So.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
How do you sort of conceive of that word.
Speaker 5 (02:27):
Yeah, so I have a five year old daughter.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Her name is Mimi, and I when I moved to France,
I was very pregnant with her.
Speaker 5 (02:35):
So that was a good introduction to the country.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
And yeah, maternity, I don't I guess. When I hear maternity,
I think of in English. I think of those like
old school maternity wards where you're like peering through the
glass and like looking for your baby in the glass cube.
But that was in my experience at all. When I
had my baby, they gave her to us directly and
(02:57):
she was like against my chest and right aways. But
in France, when I diar mine, I think more of
mazern that's like preschool in France. And yeah, it's funny.
The whole school system is just organized so different here,
and it's it takes a while to learn it. But
(03:19):
one of the wonderful things is public school starts at
age three and that's Matzernin and then yeah, after that,
it's like Petit six and Moya six, Grand six Yon
and then sat Bay and they have a whole It's
not like in the US where it's kindergarten one, two,
three for five, six seven. It's a different system.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yeah, it seems like that very French desire to take
something that could be really simple and make it overly
complicated for no particular reason.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
But yeah, of course, like from our perspective, I'm like,
our system is so much easier. But then I'm like,
but your system is a lot less expensive, and there
enough kind of love it.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Yeah, So let's go back and timing your journey, because
you moved here super pregnant. So I'm sure you did
some of your sort of pre childbirth care in the
US and then you came to France. So what were
sort of the immediate differences that you noticed between the
approach in America and the approach in France.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Yeah, so it actually this, I guess if we call
it my pregnancy journey. It started in the US. My
partner and I, like I got when we decided we
want to have a child. I got pregnant right away,
and I was like, oh my god, this is amazing,
is so easy.
Speaker 5 (04:31):
I was all starry eyed, like over the moon excited.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
And then after about six weeks, I guess you could
just say I had a miscarriage, but it was just
the pregnancy. It just wasn't like viable. So at the
time I had to get a procedure at DNC, and
that was just extraorded. It was only six weeks along,
which isn't that long, but like it was still like
(04:54):
so upsetting and traumatic and all these things. And then
at the same time, while dealing with all this like
extraordinary disappointment, I had a good job. I was working
for a culinary school. I had wonderful insurance, and it
was like wildly expensive, Like you know, the doctor said
what I had to do. I kind of was like
numb and said okay, And then I got this villain.
(05:15):
I was like Jesus, Jesus Christ, and yeah, I think
that just quickly made me realize, like having a child,
even just like the pregnancy process in the US, can
be extremely expensive and adds like stress to an already
like stressful situation. And I think within weeks after that happened,
(05:39):
we decided to move to France. We had already been
talking about it. My ex he has in an apartment here,
so like we were always kind of like thinking about it.
But then when that happened, I think I was like
still just like a little shell shock from the experience,
and I was like, Okay, I'm out, let's go. So
we moved from Brooklyn to France. But then we did
kind of like a I don't know why, have like
(06:02):
a lot of a lot of things happening, but I
decided it was a perfect time to open a sandwich
shop in Spain. See my ex's parents lived there, so yeah,
I was like, on the way to moving to France,
I'm going to stop first summer in Mayorca and open
a sandwich shop, which I had never done before. And
it was just like it was like a lifelong dream
(06:23):
of mine. After working in restaurants, I was like, I
want to do something with conor I want to keep writing,
like being a food writer. But I just had this
like dream my whole life to have a sandwich shop.
And I had been like sketching out sandwich menus in
my journals for years.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
So yeah, I did that.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
It was like a whirlwind, wild experience. And then I
got pregnant actually in Mayorka, I guess in July, so
July and my Yorka and then yeah, I moved to France.
In we just like settled for real in France, and
I think it was September or late September, and then yeah,
it was kind of like I was never like reading
(06:58):
up all the things and doing all the research. I
kind of like trusted that I would like figure it
out as I went. So when I arrived, I like
I didn't realize so many things about like the healthcare
system here, and like I didn't have like a guyecologist,
so I just kind of like went with who my
sister in law went with, and yeah, I just I
quickly realized that it was just a different system in terms.
(07:20):
I mean, I had never had a full term pregnancy
in the US. I didn't really have like means of comparison.
But like the first guy tocologist was this like older
man with like he was kind of like a jet
setter at this like bronze skin. I could just tell
if he like spent his like weekends in Sanchope and
the summers and whatnot. And so the first time we
(07:41):
did the I don't know it when they check for
the heartbeat, it was like a really emotional moment for
me because I was like, you know, really scared about
the first pregnancy and everything. So I'm in this guy's office.
It looks like a beautiful house Manian apartment. It doesn't
look like a doctor's office at all, and basically just
like naked behind like a or something.
Speaker 5 (08:01):
And then we hear the heartbeat and I.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
Start crying and I'm like oh, and he just like
lightly like slaps me on my cheek or like taps
my cheek and he's like, come on, no tears.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
That's like all right, well, okay, So that kind of
makes me think of I mean, I think a lot
of American women, especially when we come here. You know,
you see it in all of the Facebook groups of
expat women in Paris, Like the gynecologists here are the
bedside manner is really.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Different, very different. And also like ninety nine percent of
them are men. I don't know what's up with that.
I feel more comfortable with a female gynatologists, but it's
like pretty hard to come by in Paris.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Yeah, And I mean like I don't know what, if
what it's like when you're pregnant, but I know that
if you go to just the gynecologist on a regular,
you know, appointment, it's not like they give you a
gown or any sort of you know, they're not pretending
that they're not going to just be examining you naked.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
They're like, all right, hop up here. Strip.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
It's very h Yeah, and it's weird because it really
looks like you're in someone's like I mean, this was
kind of like a chep doctor or something, and I
think it was in the eighth and yeah, it looks
like this like beautiful house Madian like stately office with
like art on the wall, like very stylish. And then
it's like all right, you know, get in the full
stern like get ready.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
So you've had, like I guess, I don't know how
much actual you know, checkups and stuff you had to
do when you were in Spain, but have you had
sort of experience with the sort of medical side of
pregnancy in then the US, Spain and France, or mostly
the US in France.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Not Spain. I've had other things in Spain, but just
like in general, from just visits to hospitals in Spain
and in France and just even it's just the the
insurance factor is just wild. It makes such a difference.
Like when I first arrived, I still didn't have like
the equivalent of a green card. I was, you know,
(09:58):
still working on my papers. That is when I arrived
in France, and so I was basically paying in that
fancy doctor. I was like paying out of pocket. And
I got my first bill and I was like, I
think like a hundred euros and I almost started laughing
because I'm just like, oh my god, like which is
you know, it's not a nothing. But I was like,
compared to the US, if you go to a doctor,
(10:19):
like they'll look at your wrist and it's like six
hundred dollars, right, yeah, yeah. And then from there, I
don't know at what point. At some point, like I
was covered by Social Security during my pregnancy, and at
some point we got like insurance. But for the most part,
like everything I did was covered just by like Social Security,
so like the minimum that every person gets. I gave
(10:41):
birth in a semi private hospital. I had to have
a C section. I stayed there for five days. My
partner was with me for five days, like on a
little car. We had a private room. We got a
bill for like five hundred euros. I was like, let's
like I'm more hospuitable place to like push out a
baby or have a baby rabot.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
In any way, I mean, yeah, so I guess that
sort of answers my next question, which I know that
when women in France have a natural childbirth, typically they
don't actually have they don't have a doctor intervening that
Often it's mostly midwives, whereas in the States there's a
lot of doctors. What was your experience kind of how
(11:23):
much were you looked after by a team of midwives
before you actually had to see a doctor in the
case of your experience.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
That's a really good question, because I guess I had
always imagined, you know, there would be like one doctor
who's like following up with you and coming along with
you on your pregnancy journey. But I was at the
Franco Bruttanni hospital and I don't think I maybe I
saw the same doctor twice. But yeah, for the most part,
even when I did, like my monthly visits, it was
(11:53):
midwives taking my blood whatever. And then the day of
when I went into labor, I didn't see single face
that I recognized, like there was there was no one
I didn't know the doctor, like, it's basically like whoever's
on call. And I don't know how it would have
been had I had like a doula or somebody that
I didn't know there, maybe I would have maybe would
(12:15):
have made the experience different. All I know is like
when I was like experiencing contractions, I really didn't care.
I want to have this baby.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
But one thing I was surprised about. I don't know
if it's like this in the US, though, is that
once we were there, I was in labor, they basically
like come to check on you once an hour and
then they're just like all right, like keep breathing.
Speaker 5 (12:38):
It's like, wow, who really intense.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
So not like super medicalized, then really like not a
ton of people hovering over you or no.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
And then yeah, I remember I when the doctor was
like okay, the baby's or I didn't even know I was.
It was like maybe a midwife. The baby heart rate
went down and they were maybe this is because of
the place I was. I don't know, but they were
like immediately they were just like, okay, you have don
the C section right away. And then yeah, there was
an anesthesiologist that I had never seen before, doctor Champagne
(13:14):
or something, and I swear to god, he made a
joke to me and I was like, why is.
Speaker 5 (13:18):
He trying to make me laugh? Crazy? But then yeah,
I mean, for me, I had always imagined giving natural
birth because all the women and my family did, and
they're kind of like I just kind of assumed that
I would too, and I didn't.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
And you know, when my daughter was safe and healthy,
I just I couldn't have cared less. I was just like, yeah, here,
it's fine.
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And you mentioned then that you stuck around for five days,
that your partner was able to stay with you. Part
of the reason I do this podcast is because we
as Americans have this idea, these lofty ideas of you
(14:33):
know France as being this magical place where everybody's treated
like a queen. But I do think that French people
tend to get a little bit more out of the
system when they've just had a baby in terms of support.
You know, whether it's learning how to nurse, or you know,
access to childcare what you talked about.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Or even you know, the finances, which you already talked about.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
So in the immediate aftermath after you had Mimi, did
you have people checking in making sure or that you
were okay, coming to your home, teaching you how to
nurse sort of? How was that afterwards once you had
it a healthy baby.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
I remember at the hospital there were a couple of
appointments that we did during those first five days of
just like showing us all of the basic things like
how to change the baby, how to like wash for
a belly button, you know, she still had the umbilical
cord attached. How to give because they give her like
vitamins in the beginning, we had to give vitamins, like
all these little things that like you just you know,
(15:30):
when you're a new parent, you have no idea how
to do. They just like walked us through how to
do that at the hospital and they did check in
a lot on me, and the baby food was decent,
I will say at that hospital brankover tenny. Yeah, and
then I was really surprised that afterwards, through just like
Social Security, you can make an appointment with a lactation
(15:53):
specialists because I was breastfeeding and there was just like
a little period where I was having trouble because it
was just like hurting a lot, and the lactation specialists
came and it just like changed my life and I
restfed for like fourteen months after that. It was just
like such a game changer. And yeah, there were I
think two appointments at the house, which I want to
(16:13):
say midwives, but yeah, it's just like all included and
just like everybody gets that with Social Security. And then
I think, yeah, I think also there was some like
tax credit. I know, I'm talking met a lot of
financial stuff, but these are the things that like blew
my mind. You know, they were like giving us money
for having a baby, and I was like, wow, crazy.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Yeah, it's so different.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Yeah, but I think yet in general, like there was
a lot of care and just like to make sure
you're doing okay. And yeah, there's resources available, which is
for us, Like I mean, I was my mom came
right away, like she came and I went into labor.
It was like my mom arrived and I was like, okay,
it's time boo. And I went to labor like wow,
like a week early. So I was lucky that I
(16:58):
did have my mom here. And she's a politician, but
she's she was a nurse for twenty years, so she's
extremely good. But you know I didn't have like I
wasn't surrounded by friends and family, so that was helpful.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Yeah, well, I mean that was going to be my
next question. Is I think, you know, finding community as
new parents. You know, it looks different depending on where
you live. And I know that in the States, and
I have friends in the UK who joined sort of
like groups of people before they give birth so that
the kids will all be around the same age and
then they all are kind of raising up kids at
(17:31):
around the same age. Is that a resource or something
that you sought out while you were here or did
you have a community of new parents, you know, with
kids around Mimi's age.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
No, I didn't, and I didn't I didn't seek it
out really, like I was kind of trying to like
meet friends and trying to figure out like how to
be a freelance writer over here. So it was like
a lot of things I was trying to navigate once.
But I will say my two best mom friends who
remain like my best mom friends to this day, they
(18:02):
reached out to me on Instagram because they had read
like a story I wrote for Food fifty two and
they were both our need and Toulaka love them. They
both like reached out to me separately and were like, hey,
I'm a mom here too, my baby's the same age,
or she'd get together and yeah. It was actually like,
you know, social media, it gives the cakes.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
I mean, social media has gotten me a lot of
a lot of.
Speaker 5 (18:26):
My friends here.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
But it's cool that what was the story about in
Food fifty two that they found you on?
Speaker 5 (18:31):
Do you remember?
Speaker 4 (18:32):
I think it was a story about It's either a
story about the best breakfast in Paris, which don't google that.
I don't like that story, but that either that or
I wrote in a story about their Rue de Martier
because it was I live in the ninth So I
think it was one of those two stories, and I
just it really does I don't know I didn't. I
(18:54):
hadn't considered like the benefit and like the support you
have when you have like other parent friends, and it
really is. It is a wonderful thing. Because backing up
a little bit, I've always my sister, she she has
four daughters. She became a mom before me, and she's
always been, i say, like my role mother. Like she's
(19:16):
always been such a wonderful mom, but she's never when
she became a mom, like she always still had like
a very rich social life and like intellectual life. She
was always reading, seeing movies, just like you know, very
in tune with whatever is happening in the world and culture.
And I always kind of use that as an example
of like being a mom and like a wonderful mom,
but not like losing who you are. And I think
(19:38):
part of that is incorporating your friends and socializing into
like your life as a mom, Like I love hosting
mom friends and having our kids play together, and like
having someone and having like a delicious dinner. So I
don't know, some people, like when I was pregnant, you know,
you get the inevitable eye rolls and people that are like, oh,
life is going to be over.
Speaker 7 (20:00):
I never felt that way when I became a mom.
I don't today like things change, of course, because like
there's a human that you have this you know, unconditional
love for. But so I guess to answer your question,
having those mom friends has been amazing.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
It's like a I highly recommend it.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
I love that approach, and I love that you aren't
you know that you're able to sort of continue to
be who you are in addition to having this lovely
little human that you're responsible for and loving and looking after.
Do you feel as though there's anything specifically about being
a mom in France that makes that easier or harder?
Is it more culturally acceptable here or less? You know,
(20:42):
I assume it must be facilitated in some way by
the you know, the significant financial stressors attached to pregnancy,
but also by the fact that you do have public
daycare and you know Kesh and all of these things.
Did you find it easier here to do that basically
than what your sister went through in the States?
Speaker 4 (20:59):
I think that people here it's hard because, like a lie,
I will say, a lot of my friends here I
have met moms at the school who are like Spanish
and French. But yeah, a lot of my mom friends
are American, so you know, we're not all just like
(21:20):
French people. You know, we live here, but you know,
we're not just like doing all the French things. But
I do think in general, like you know, people do
do up arrows and kids are there and it's it's fine,
Whereas in the US maybe there's more of a culture
of like, Okay, if we're going to go socialize, we're
going to like get a babysitter, so you know, And
(21:41):
I'm not saying that's I'm painting with broad strokes here,
but I think, yeah, they're like kids are a little
bit more incorporated into life.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I've definitely noticed that with my friends who have kids
in France as well, like a lot of French people
who you know, when you're invited over to someone's house
for dinner, it's unless you hear otherwise, you expect that
the kids are included, and they'll all sort of you know,
they clink their glasses for aparo filled with apple juice
and then they go and play.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
And kids seem to be at least included.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
Adurie Aki, who she just wrote a book called Jois.
I did a profile of her for France and Marique,
but we were just like talking. And I think she
writes about that in her book, how like her kids
have grown up with aparo and getting together with like
the neighbors and other kids in school.
Speaker 5 (22:24):
And yeah, they look forward to it.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
They're like looking at like, you know, creating little table
scapes of their own. And it is it is really
nice to have, yeah, to like show that to the
kids from an early age and get them like excited
about like having friends over for dinner and like excuse
the word, but like entertaining.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yeah, well, I mean, speaking of entertaining and entertaining kids specifically,
it seems as though, you know, I grew up in
the nineties. I definitely wasn't a latch key kid, but
we were expected to entertain ourselves. And I feel as
though in the time since when I was a small kid,
parents have seemed in this US at least, to become
(23:01):
more and more responsible for managing their kids downtime, managing
their after school activities and getting them from you know,
ballet to judo to soccer practice to violin and sort
of packing their schedules full of things.
Speaker 5 (23:15):
Is that the thing?
Speaker 2 (23:16):
I know, Mimi still little, but is that something that
you're noticing is as culturally present in France or is
it less present here?
Speaker 4 (23:24):
I think it is.
Speaker 5 (23:26):
I mean maybe does ballet and judo?
Speaker 4 (23:28):
Okay, her activities, I'm like, and I'm trying to like
put a tennis racket in her hand. I'm like, Mama,
played tennis, do you want to play tennis too?
Speaker 5 (23:37):
Next year? And she she's kind of saying no.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
So I'm trying not to like force that onto her,
but she will play no.
Speaker 5 (23:44):
But yeah, I think like kids do a lot of
activities here.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
There are parents that are like, you know, very focused
on making sure that kids are doing activities and getting
into like XYZ school. I have the idea and also
just like very like attentive to the kids. They're not
just like play on your own, you know, parents. I
go to the park a lot, and I it's kind
(24:08):
of like I always pick my daughter up at four
thirty and we go to the park when it's nice,
and a lot of times in my neighborhood it's like
me and a lot of the new news, like a
lot of the nannies. But then there are a few
parents too, and I kind of I like to like
sit on the side and I'm like, okay, park time
is like we're here so she can play with other
kids and like you know, run around and do stuff
like that. I don't like to play with her at
(24:29):
the park so much because I just think like, yeah,
there's other kids around, you know.
Speaker 5 (24:33):
A little bit, but like have fun with the kids.
Speaker 4 (24:36):
But yeah, there are parents that are like helicoptering around
their kids and playing with them throughout the park, and
I don't want to be like hunched over my phone,
so I'm just kind of like daydreaming and looking around.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
But yeah, in Paris specifically, do you have a lot
of different parks that you can go to, or do
you have a couple in your neighborhood that you really like.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
I love to go to the Square on there, which
is right by my place. I love it. It's just
it's small, it has like a view of this Africa.
It has like pretty flowers. It's relatively clean. Because we
also go to mont Alone, which is between the ninth
and that's closer to your place, actually between the ninth
and the tenth, and that's a big park, but it
(25:16):
is dirty. There's just like I won't be two girls,
but if you sometimes my daughter is like she loves flowers,
so she tries to climb into like the flower area
and like in the bushes, and there is some human
feces in there sometimes.
Speaker 5 (25:33):
And I'm like, God, out of there. It's just kind
of like a dirty park.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
But yeah, I mean I don't think, you know, coming
from New York, people say like aut Paris it has
no green space and like complain about it, but I
honestly find that there's parks are fairly accessible. I think
what's hard about Paris though, is that, like if I
did want to like take me to play tennis or
take your how to like ride a horse or something
(25:58):
like that, you do have to travel. Bit it's usually
like around the covery or so to do certain like
sports and stuff, it is a little bit harder.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
And when you do those sports and those activities for
French kids, is it still mainly on Wednesdays that they
would do those activities rather than as like an after
school situation.
Speaker 5 (26:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
So I don't know if people listening, no, but Wednesdays
in France is usually kids get out of school either
at eleven thirty and go have lunch at home. And
Mimi did that for a while, but now I've like
scooched it back to one thirty so she'll have lunch
at school and then I pick her up. But yeah,
it's kind of crazy. I'm like, I don't know how
parents do it because a lot of kids, most kids
(26:39):
like go home. So I'm lucky because I'm a freelancer,
so i can just be there and.
Speaker 5 (26:43):
Take her through our activities. But otherwise you need healthcare
because you have to be clear.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
French kids don't go to school on Wednesday afternoons at all.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
Well, I mean the thing is you can you can
sign them up for like they have activities and stuff
like recreational things that they do, so it is it
is available, you have to pay for it, right, Yeah,
most parents will take their kids out either at eleven
thirty or one thirty, and yeah, everybody goes to like activity,
So that's the day that Mimi does judo. Yeah, I
guess this. At first, I was like, what is this
(27:13):
system of like a hot day on Wednesdays?
Speaker 5 (27:15):
And now I've just like accepted it.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
You know, we do some fun things we'll do like
a playdate after judo or something.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
So okay, and when does she do ballet?
Speaker 5 (27:25):
She does ballet? Thursday nights.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Okay, kind of a slog because there'sday night at five o'clock.
She just turned five, but she's tired, and so I
have to like, there's some lollipops involved together there. Sometimes
I have not a book bribing my child.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I mean, we all turned out five and I was
definitely bribed.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
So oh yeah, that's what my mom says about television
when I'm like, Mom, like, don't let her watch another show.
Like if we're visiting my mom in New York, it's like,
you watch shows all the time and you came out great,
and I'm like, yeah, them have smartphones, tablets.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
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right back after a word from our sponsors. So there's
been lots of different reports, essays, books about the differences
(28:46):
between raising kids in France and raising kids in the US.
What are some of the biggest differences that you've noticed
in terms of the culture of raising kids in France.
And then on the flip side, is there anything that
you feel like people you know paint the French as
being perfect parents and standing out from American parents in
a certain way where you're like, actually, that doesn't seem
(29:07):
to be the case to me.
Speaker 8 (29:08):
Well, one thing that comes to mind is the shame factor.
I think in the US there can be a lot
of shame surrounding what you do or don't do with
your kids, and like, you know, people that are a
little bit moralistic about what decisions you make when you're
pregnant or as a parent, like from breastfeeding, for example.
(29:33):
I love breastfeeding because it made my life easier for me,
but absolutely completely understand it's it's a personal choice. You
don't have to breastfeed, and I think in the US
people feel guilty if they don't breastfeed. And I remember
one of my ex's friends who had a baby a
little bit before us I think I asked her, I'm like,
(29:53):
are you brestfeeding?
Speaker 4 (29:54):
She's like no, and I was like oh, and she's
like human kiuah, Like she was like, I want to smoke,
I want to have a drink, like not excessively, but
she was just like, just don't feel like it.
Speaker 5 (30:06):
It's like all right, And I kind of like that.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
You know, there's a million reasons why breastfeeding might not
work for you, or maybe you just don't want to,
and that's fine, And I think that's more acceptable here.
And it's more acceptable to prioritize yourself your happiness and
you know, the plain thing like say, you have to
put on your mask before you help others. And I
think that that's you know, it's a good thing to
keep in mind for moms, like you do have to
(30:30):
take care of yourself. You have to like keep prioritizing
your happiness too, in order to be a good mom.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
And I think that's a huge difference, and it's definitely
something that maybe makes being a mom. Already you have
a lot of hormones and a lot of you know,
things that are changing in your life, and not having
that added shame must make it a lot easier to navigate.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
Yeah, mom, guilt is like I deal with that a lot.
I talked to my therapist about it. I think it's
just it's hard. I mean maybe that's just personal to
be like I think about it a lot, like what
I could be doing better and this and that, and
sometimes you have to realize that, like you have to
just trust your judgment. That's what my purpose says, Like
if I have to let my daughter like watch a
show for like half an hour of five thirty, she's like, well,
(31:12):
if you prioritize picking up your daughter a four thirty,
but you still have a little bit of work to finish,
that's okay, you just like have to do it.
Speaker 5 (31:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
The other part of my question was whether you think
that there's something that either the media or just people
who look at France and think that it's perfect, which
we all know it's not. It's a place and it's
a wonderful place, but it's not a perfect place. Is
there anything that people look at French moms and they're like, oh,
they're so good at this, and you're like, yeah, maybe,
(31:40):
or it's maybe just not quite as perfect as as
it's depicted in the media.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
Yeah, for me and you know, French people might come
for me for this, but sometimes in parenting there's this
side that for me can feel a little cold. I
for example, I'm like a very affectionate person. I love
like struggling with my daughter every night before bed, we
read books together, and she often likes to like lie
(32:08):
in my bed, which makes more sense because it's a
lot bigger, it's more comfortable. But she'll sleep in my
bed sometimes because she'll fall asleep there and I don't
feel like moving her. And I have absolutely no problem
with that, like I find you know, in two years,
she's probably not gonna want to spend time with me
at all, and if she wants to like sleep in
my bed sometimes now I don't mind that. But French
people for the most part are like, no, like the
(32:32):
childhoods their bed, this is the adult bed. No, there's
no like sleeping there. And to me being like from this,
I don't know. Maybe I'm like a little bit of
bit hippie or something, but I don't agree with that,
and I don't I don't know, I don't. I feel
like there's something sweet about like letting your kids do
stuff like that while they're little. To me and they
(32:53):
can be to me a little bit rigid about like
no bult are like this kid like this.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
I mean that rigidity is something I I've definitely seen
in like, for example, the French school system, especially as
you know, you get older. I did some of my
high school in France, and there's a lot of just
sort of these are the boxes in which you are
meant to be. Has that been something that you've encountered
yet in Mimi's schooling or are you having her an
international school at all, or maybe she's still young enough
(33:21):
that that's not something you've come up against.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
She's in the public school. But so it's not exactly
the way you described it. But I remember when she
first started at three, it was a big transition because
when she was in daycare before that, I would drop
her off at ten and pick her up at like
whenever three or something, so it was like.
Speaker 5 (33:38):
An easy day for her.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
And then when she started maternal at three years old,
it was eight twenty in the morning to either eleven
thirty on Wednesdays otherwise like four thirty. So it's like
a long day for a little person. And I think,
you know, she just wasn't really a morning person. At
that point. So for two months solid, when we would
(34:03):
drop her off, she would cry and scream and like
the teacher would be like, it's better if you go,
and I just like it would break my heart every day,
and I just I felt like they were like, okay, goodbye,
and maybe that's been the best, right, Like maybe it's
better to not like I shouldn't be sentimental about it,
(34:24):
like she's crying, I shouldn't like. But sometimes I would
walk out of the school in like tears and just
feel like a failure of a mom. And yeah, it's
not like I went to like a Montessory school when
I was little, and they're a little bit more touchy feely.
They're not so much like that in the French school theater.
They're good, but it's like a more of a like
a professional okay, like drop your kid off, goodbye?
Speaker 3 (34:45):
Okay, does she like school now?
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (34:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (34:48):
And you know what they used to say. They'd be like,
literally three minutes after you leave, she's fine, don't worry
about it. She forgets about it, but and yeah, now
she loves it. She's really blossomed. Three was tough. There
was less, she didn't have Terrible two's she had terrible
threes with the tantrums, and then four was better and
five is like I don't know, I feel like this
(35:09):
is like a I'm coasting a lot. It's a great
period and I'm sure it's gonna get hard again soon.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
But is she speaking both languages and sort of blossoming
in that as well, and in terms of being like
a bicultural, bilingual little person.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
Yeah, yeah, I mean she's always been bilingual. She started,
I like she's she even from like the time she
started speaking, she would speak both French and English and
a little bit of Spanish because that was like her
first language because we went there for a while during
the pandemic to Majorca. So like the first song she
sang was in Myroquine, Oh my goodness. Yeah, so she
(35:48):
had a lot of languages in her head. But now
she's at the point where she can, like really she
can translate for me, Like so it's not just like
thoughtlessly speaking two languages. Like I can say to her,
like how do you say that in English? Or how
do you say that in French? And she can do
like the translation. I'm very it's very impressive.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
That's really cool.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
That's very pretty amazing language awareness for someone so little.
Speaker 4 (36:10):
Yeah, and then she corrects my pronunciation, like if I'm
reading it, I'm like, she's like.
Speaker 5 (36:16):
Mamma, she makes me feel stupid.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
That's I mean, that's what kids are for, right, to
make their parents stupid.
Speaker 5 (36:27):
Yeah, and to and yeah, and to like make us laugh. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (36:30):
Sometimes I say stupid and that's for her, that's a
that's a bad word. And she look at me and
she's like.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Oh, what does she call you mama?
Speaker 5 (36:42):
Yeah? Yeah. I can't even do her accent because it's
like she says, she doesn't say.
Speaker 4 (36:47):
Like moment, I don't know. She doesn't sound like quite
like a little French girl, and she says it. But
one thing that always freaks me out is when, like
if we're in New York for a little while, she'll
say mommy, and I'm like, who are this?
Speaker 3 (37:00):
So she doesn't call you mommy?
Speaker 4 (37:02):
No, never, I think just when she's like being like
funny when we're in New York and she hears like
her cousin saying that, oh. Sure. She had a little
meltdown the other day about like not liking her curly hair,
and I was like, please, you're I don't know it's
like I'm navigating that now.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
Poor little curly girl.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Although she has beautiful ringlets, it took me until like
maybe ten years.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
Ago to figure out how to have curly hair, so
she's already.
Speaker 5 (37:30):
It's a lot of work.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
It's a lot of work, but once you figure it out,
it's amazing.
Speaker 4 (37:34):
So yeah, I think she gets a lot of attention
for it. Like in the street, people are always like, oh, oh,
it's like so pretty, and she like she likes it.
But then, yeah, I don't know. Kids after a while,
you know, they don't want to be different. She's like,
I want straight hair like mama, and no, but you're
just so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
That's the constant fight, right, the curly girls want straight
hair and the straight haired girls want curly.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
Yeah. But and then I you know, I have to
think about my messaging too. I'm like, your hair is beautiful,
but more importantly, you're smart.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
Yeah, exactly. Your hair is just protecting your beautiful brain.
Speaker 5 (38:13):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Well, speaking of beautiful brains, where can people read more
of your work? Where can they find you on the
internet if they want to find out more about Caitlin
and living in France?
Speaker 4 (38:26):
But my portfolio is linked in my Instagram at Caitlin
Tea Gunther, and I have my website Kaitlyndunther dot com. Recently,
I've been writing a lot for Kanye Nash Traveler Washington Post,
and I've got a really exciting story coming out and Eater,
which I already I told you about at my last party,
(38:48):
so that should be dropping in the next couple of
weeks and I will hear that.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Yeah, amazing.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Well, we will put links to all of your places
to find you in the show notes. Anyone who wants
to find out more about Caitlin's perspective on food, travel,
and life in France should be sure and check that out.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
And thank you so.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Much for joining me today and telling us all about
your adventures with motherhood in France.
Speaker 3 (39:14):
It has been enlightening.
Speaker 5 (39:15):
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
Thank you so much. This is fun.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
This has been navigating the French. You can find more
from me Emily Monico at Emily Underscore in Underscore France
on Twitter and Instagram. This podcast is produced by Paris
Underground Radio. To listen to other episodes of this podcast,
or to discover more podcasts like it, please visit Paris
Underground Radio dot com.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
Thanks for listening and abientu.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
This episode of Navigating the French was produced by Jennifer
Garrity for Paris Underground Radio. For more great content, join
us on Patreon at patreon dot com slash Paris Underground
Radio
You are listening to Navigating the French on Paris Underground Radio.
For more great content and a bonus episode of Navigating
the French, please join us on Patreon.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hello and welcome to Navigating the French, the podcast where
each episode we take a look at a French word
and try and see what it.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Tells us about French culture.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I'm your host, Emily Monico. Today I'm joined by Caitlyn Gunther,
a journalist, American expat and mom living in Paris.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
She's here to delve.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Into a word that in English is more often associated
with pregnancy, jeans, but here in France encapsulates the entirety
of motherhood. So welcome Caitlyn to the podcast. I am
super excited to have you on. Before we get started,
could you let our listeners know a little bit about
(00:52):
who you are and what you do here in Paris.
Speaker 4 (00:55):
Sure, I am a New Yorker in Paris. I will
always call my I save the New Yorker no matter
how long I live here. I've been here for about
six years and I'm a freelance journalist. I focus on
travel and food and lifestyle. When I came here, I
was more of a food writer, but travel just became
a natural progression and extension of that. So yeah, I
(01:17):
do a little bit more travel these days I have.
If I back up a little bit, my career path,
little Windy, I started out as a lawyer and then quit,
moved to Spain, worked in a few Michelin Star restaurants,
and went back to New York, started full time food writing,
and then met a French guy that in love, came
(01:39):
to Paris. We got married in New York and then
I moved to Paris with him, and yeah, I've been
here ever since, freelance writing, in the ground running.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
And you also have a little girl, and your sort
of transition into motherhood is part of what we're going
to be chatting about today. So this idea of matt
told with is in French the word for motherhood but
also the word for maternity. So it's a little bit
of a false friend for us Anglophones.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
You know.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
I was wondering, first of all, if you can sort
of help us figure out the different ways that we
use the word mattalite in French, because I know that
in English we think a lot of maternity clothing, but
it's used in a lot of other different sort of
areas in France, So.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
How do you sort of conceive of that word.
Speaker 5 (02:27):
Yeah, so I have a five year old daughter.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Her name is Mimi, and I when I moved to France,
I was very pregnant with her.
Speaker 5 (02:35):
So that was a good introduction to the country.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
And yeah, maternity, I don't I guess. When I hear maternity,
I think of in English. I think of those like
old school maternity wards where you're like peering through the
glass and like looking for your baby in the glass cube.
But that was in my experience at all. When I
had my baby, they gave her to us directly and
(02:57):
she was like against my chest and right aways. But
in France, when I diar mine, I think more of
mazern that's like preschool in France. And yeah, it's funny.
The whole school system is just organized so different here,
and it's it takes a while to learn it. But
(03:19):
one of the wonderful things is public school starts at
age three and that's Matzernin and then yeah, after that,
it's like Petit six and Moya six, Grand six Yon
and then sat Bay and they have a whole It's
not like in the US where it's kindergarten one, two,
three for five, six seven. It's a different system.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yeah, it seems like that very French desire to take
something that could be really simple and make it overly
complicated for no particular reason.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
But yeah, of course, like from our perspective, I'm like,
our system is so much easier. But then I'm like,
but your system is a lot less expensive, and there
enough kind of love it.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Yeah, So let's go back and timing your journey, because
you moved here super pregnant. So I'm sure you did
some of your sort of pre childbirth care in the
US and then you came to France. So what were
sort of the immediate differences that you noticed between the
approach in America and the approach in France.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Yeah, so it actually this, I guess if we call
it my pregnancy journey. It started in the US. My
partner and I, like I got when we decided we
want to have a child. I got pregnant right away,
and I was like, oh my god, this is amazing,
is so easy.
Speaker 5 (04:31):
I was all starry eyed, like over the moon excited.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
And then after about six weeks, I guess you could
just say I had a miscarriage, but it was just
the pregnancy. It just wasn't like viable. So at the
time I had to get a procedure at DNC, and
that was just extraorded. It was only six weeks along,
which isn't that long, but like it was still like
(04:54):
so upsetting and traumatic and all these things. And then
at the same time, while dealing with all this like
extraordinary disappointment, I had a good job. I was working
for a culinary school. I had wonderful insurance, and it
was like wildly expensive, Like you know, the doctor said
what I had to do. I kind of was like
numb and said okay, And then I got this villain.
(05:15):
I was like Jesus, Jesus Christ, and yeah, I think
that just quickly made me realize, like having a child,
even just like the pregnancy process in the US, can
be extremely expensive and adds like stress to an already
like stressful situation. And I think within weeks after that happened,
(05:39):
we decided to move to France. We had already been
talking about it. My ex he has in an apartment here,
so like we were always kind of like thinking about it.
But then when that happened, I think I was like
still just like a little shell shock from the experience,
and I was like, Okay, I'm out, let's go. So
we moved from Brooklyn to France. But then we did
kind of like a I don't know why, have like
(06:02):
a lot of a lot of things happening, but I
decided it was a perfect time to open a sandwich
shop in Spain. See my ex's parents lived there, so yeah,
I was like, on the way to moving to France,
I'm going to stop first summer in Mayorca and open
a sandwich shop, which I had never done before. And
it was just like it was like a lifelong dream
(06:23):
of mine. After working in restaurants, I was like, I
want to do something with conor I want to keep writing,
like being a food writer. But I just had this
like dream my whole life to have a sandwich shop.
And I had been like sketching out sandwich menus in
my journals for years.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
So yeah, I did that.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
It was like a whirlwind, wild experience. And then I
got pregnant actually in Mayorka, I guess in July, so
July and my Yorka and then yeah, I moved to France.
In we just like settled for real in France, and
I think it was September or late September, and then yeah,
it was kind of like I was never like reading
(06:58):
up all the things and doing all the research. I
kind of like trusted that I would like figure it
out as I went. So when I arrived, I like
I didn't realize so many things about like the healthcare
system here, and like I didn't have like a guyecologist,
so I just kind of like went with who my
sister in law went with, and yeah, I just I
quickly realized that it was just a different system in terms.
(07:20):
I mean, I had never had a full term pregnancy
in the US. I didn't really have like means of comparison.
But like the first guy tocologist was this like older
man with like he was kind of like a jet
setter at this like bronze skin. I could just tell
if he like spent his like weekends in Sanchope and
the summers and whatnot. And so the first time we
(07:41):
did the I don't know it when they check for
the heartbeat, it was like a really emotional moment for
me because I was like, you know, really scared about
the first pregnancy and everything. So I'm in this guy's office.
It looks like a beautiful house Manian apartment. It doesn't
look like a doctor's office at all, and basically just
like naked behind like a or something.
Speaker 5 (08:01):
And then we hear the heartbeat and I.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
Start crying and I'm like oh, and he just like
lightly like slaps me on my cheek or like taps
my cheek and he's like, come on, no tears.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
That's like all right, well, okay, So that kind of
makes me think of I mean, I think a lot
of American women, especially when we come here. You know,
you see it in all of the Facebook groups of
expat women in Paris, Like the gynecologists here are the
bedside manner is really.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Different, very different. And also like ninety nine percent of
them are men. I don't know what's up with that.
I feel more comfortable with a female gynatologists, but it's
like pretty hard to come by in Paris.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Yeah, And I mean like I don't know what, if
what it's like when you're pregnant, but I know that
if you go to just the gynecologist on a regular,
you know, appointment, it's not like they give you a
gown or any sort of you know, they're not pretending
that they're not going to just be examining you naked.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
They're like, all right, hop up here. Strip.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
It's very h Yeah, and it's weird because it really
looks like you're in someone's like I mean, this was
kind of like a chep doctor or something, and I
think it was in the eighth and yeah, it looks
like this like beautiful house Madian like stately office with
like art on the wall, like very stylish. And then
it's like all right, you know, get in the full
stern like get ready.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
So you've had, like I guess, I don't know how
much actual you know, checkups and stuff you had to
do when you were in Spain, but have you had
sort of experience with the sort of medical side of
pregnancy in then the US, Spain and France, or mostly
the US in France.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Not Spain. I've had other things in Spain, but just
like in general, from just visits to hospitals in Spain
and in France and just even it's just the the
insurance factor is just wild. It makes such a difference.
Like when I first arrived, I still didn't have like
the equivalent of a green card. I was, you know,
(09:58):
still working on my papers. That is when I arrived
in France, and so I was basically paying in that
fancy doctor. I was like paying out of pocket. And
I got my first bill and I was like, I
think like a hundred euros and I almost started laughing
because I'm just like, oh my god, like which is
you know, it's not a nothing. But I was like,
compared to the US, if you go to a doctor,
(10:19):
like they'll look at your wrist and it's like six
hundred dollars, right, yeah, yeah. And then from there, I
don't know at what point. At some point, like I
was covered by Social Security during my pregnancy, and at
some point we got like insurance. But for the most part,
like everything I did was covered just by like Social Security,
so like the minimum that every person gets. I gave
(10:41):
birth in a semi private hospital. I had to have
a C section. I stayed there for five days. My
partner was with me for five days, like on a
little car. We had a private room. We got a
bill for like five hundred euros. I was like, let's
like I'm more hospuitable place to like push out a
baby or have a baby rabot.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
In any way, I mean, yeah, so I guess that
sort of answers my next question, which I know that
when women in France have a natural childbirth, typically they
don't actually have they don't have a doctor intervening that
Often it's mostly midwives, whereas in the States there's a
lot of doctors. What was your experience kind of how
(11:23):
much were you looked after by a team of midwives
before you actually had to see a doctor in the
case of your experience.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
That's a really good question, because I guess I had
always imagined, you know, there would be like one doctor
who's like following up with you and coming along with
you on your pregnancy journey. But I was at the
Franco Bruttanni hospital and I don't think I maybe I
saw the same doctor twice. But yeah, for the most part,
even when I did, like my monthly visits, it was
(11:53):
midwives taking my blood whatever. And then the day of
when I went into labor, I didn't see single face
that I recognized, like there was there was no one
I didn't know the doctor, like, it's basically like whoever's
on call. And I don't know how it would have
been had I had like a doula or somebody that
I didn't know there, maybe I would have maybe would
(12:15):
have made the experience different. All I know is like
when I was like experiencing contractions, I really didn't care.
I want to have this baby.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
But one thing I was surprised about. I don't know
if it's like this in the US, though, is that
once we were there, I was in labor, they basically
like come to check on you once an hour and
then they're just like all right, like keep breathing.
Speaker 5 (12:38):
It's like, wow, who really intense.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
So not like super medicalized, then really like not a
ton of people hovering over you or no.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
And then yeah, I remember I when the doctor was
like okay, the baby's or I didn't even know I was.
It was like maybe a midwife. The baby heart rate
went down and they were maybe this is because of
the place I was. I don't know, but they were
like immediately they were just like, okay, you have don
the C section right away. And then yeah, there was
an anesthesiologist that I had never seen before, doctor Champagne
(13:14):
or something, and I swear to god, he made a
joke to me and I was like, why is.
Speaker 5 (13:18):
He trying to make me laugh? Crazy? But then yeah,
I mean, for me, I had always imagined giving natural
birth because all the women and my family did, and
they're kind of like I just kind of assumed that
I would too, and I didn't.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
And you know, when my daughter was safe and healthy,
I just I couldn't have cared less. I was just like, yeah, here,
it's fine.
Speaker 6 (13:42):
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And you mentioned then that you stuck around for five days,
that your partner was able to stay with you. Part
of the reason I do this podcast is because we
as Americans have this idea, these lofty ideas of you
(14:33):
know France as being this magical place where everybody's treated
like a queen. But I do think that French people
tend to get a little bit more out of the
system when they've just had a baby in terms of support.
You know, whether it's learning how to nurse, or you know,
access to childcare what you talked about.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Or even you know, the finances, which you already talked about.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
So in the immediate aftermath after you had Mimi, did
you have people checking in making sure or that you
were okay, coming to your home, teaching you how to
nurse sort of? How was that afterwards once you had
it a healthy baby.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
I remember at the hospital there were a couple of
appointments that we did during those first five days of
just like showing us all of the basic things like
how to change the baby, how to like wash for
a belly button, you know, she still had the umbilical
cord attached. How to give because they give her like
vitamins in the beginning, we had to give vitamins, like
all these little things that like you just you know,
(15:30):
when you're a new parent, you have no idea how
to do. They just like walked us through how to
do that at the hospital and they did check in
a lot on me, and the baby food was decent,
I will say at that hospital brankover tenny. Yeah, and
then I was really surprised that afterwards, through just like
Social Security, you can make an appointment with a lactation
(15:53):
specialists because I was breastfeeding and there was just like
a little period where I was having trouble because it
was just like hurting a lot, and the lactation specialists
came and it just like changed my life and I
restfed for like fourteen months after that. It was just
like such a game changer. And yeah, there were I
think two appointments at the house, which I want to
(16:13):
say midwives, but yeah, it's just like all included and
just like everybody gets that with Social Security. And then
I think, yeah, I think also there was some like
tax credit. I know, I'm talking met a lot of
financial stuff, but these are the things that like blew
my mind. You know, they were like giving us money
for having a baby, and I was like, wow, crazy.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Yeah, it's so different.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Yeah, but I think yet in general, like there was
a lot of care and just like to make sure
you're doing okay. And yeah, there's resources available, which is
for us, Like I mean, I was my mom came
right away, like she came and I went into labor.
It was like my mom arrived and I was like, okay,
it's time boo. And I went to labor like wow,
like a week early. So I was lucky that I
(16:58):
did have my mom here. And she's a politician, but
she's she was a nurse for twenty years, so she's
extremely good. But you know I didn't have like I
wasn't surrounded by friends and family, so that was helpful.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Yeah, well, I mean that was going to be my
next question. Is I think, you know, finding community as
new parents. You know, it looks different depending on where
you live. And I know that in the States, and
I have friends in the UK who joined sort of
like groups of people before they give birth so that
the kids will all be around the same age and
then they all are kind of raising up kids at
(17:31):
around the same age. Is that a resource or something
that you sought out while you were here or did
you have a community of new parents, you know, with
kids around Mimi's age.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
No, I didn't, and I didn't I didn't seek it
out really, like I was kind of trying to like
meet friends and trying to figure out like how to
be a freelance writer over here. So it was like
a lot of things I was trying to navigate once.
But I will say my two best mom friends who
remain like my best mom friends to this day, they
(18:02):
reached out to me on Instagram because they had read
like a story I wrote for Food fifty two and
they were both our need and Toulaka love them. They
both like reached out to me separately and were like, hey,
I'm a mom here too, my baby's the same age,
or she'd get together and yeah. It was actually like,
you know, social media, it gives the cakes.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
I mean, social media has gotten me a lot of
a lot of.
Speaker 5 (18:26):
My friends here.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
But it's cool that what was the story about in
Food fifty two that they found you on?
Speaker 5 (18:31):
Do you remember?
Speaker 4 (18:32):
I think it was a story about It's either a
story about the best breakfast in Paris, which don't google that.
I don't like that story, but that either that or
I wrote in a story about their Rue de Martier
because it was I live in the ninth So I
think it was one of those two stories, and I
just it really does I don't know I didn't. I
(18:54):
hadn't considered like the benefit and like the support you
have when you have like other parent friends, and it
really is. It is a wonderful thing. Because backing up
a little bit, I've always my sister, she she has
four daughters. She became a mom before me, and she's
always been, i say, like my role mother. Like she's
(19:16):
always been such a wonderful mom, but she's never when
she became a mom, like she always still had like
a very rich social life and like intellectual life. She
was always reading, seeing movies, just like you know, very
in tune with whatever is happening in the world and culture.
And I always kind of use that as an example
of like being a mom and like a wonderful mom,
but not like losing who you are. And I think
(19:38):
part of that is incorporating your friends and socializing into
like your life as a mom, Like I love hosting
mom friends and having our kids play together, and like
having someone and having like a delicious dinner. So I
don't know, some people, like when I was pregnant, you know,
you get the inevitable eye rolls and people that are like, oh,
life is going to be over.
Speaker 7 (20:00):
I never felt that way when I became a mom.
I don't today like things change, of course, because like
there's a human that you have this you know, unconditional
love for. But so I guess to answer your question,
having those mom friends has been amazing.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
It's like a I highly recommend it.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
I love that approach, and I love that you aren't
you know that you're able to sort of continue to
be who you are in addition to having this lovely
little human that you're responsible for and loving and looking after.
Do you feel as though there's anything specifically about being
a mom in France that makes that easier or harder?
Is it more culturally acceptable here or less? You know,
(20:42):
I assume it must be facilitated in some way by
the you know, the significant financial stressors attached to pregnancy,
but also by the fact that you do have public
daycare and you know Kesh and all of these things.
Did you find it easier here to do that basically
than what your sister went through in the States?
Speaker 4 (20:59):
I think that people here it's hard because, like a lie,
I will say, a lot of my friends here I
have met moms at the school who are like Spanish
and French. But yeah, a lot of my mom friends
are American, so you know, we're not all just like
(21:20):
French people. You know, we live here, but you know,
we're not just like doing all the French things. But
I do think in general, like you know, people do
do up arrows and kids are there and it's it's fine,
Whereas in the US maybe there's more of a culture
of like, Okay, if we're going to go socialize, we're
going to like get a babysitter, so you know, And
(21:41):
I'm not saying that's I'm painting with broad strokes here,
but I think, yeah, they're like kids are a little
bit more incorporated into life.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I've definitely noticed that with my friends who have kids
in France as well, like a lot of French people
who you know, when you're invited over to someone's house
for dinner, it's unless you hear otherwise, you expect that
the kids are included, and they'll all sort of you know,
they clink their glasses for aparo filled with apple juice
and then they go and play.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
And kids seem to be at least included.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
Adurie Aki, who she just wrote a book called Jois.
I did a profile of her for France and Marique,
but we were just like talking. And I think she
writes about that in her book, how like her kids
have grown up with aparo and getting together with like
the neighbors and other kids in school.
Speaker 5 (22:24):
And yeah, they look forward to it.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
They're like looking at like, you know, creating little table
scapes of their own. And it is it is really
nice to have, yeah, to like show that to the
kids from an early age and get them like excited
about like having friends over for dinner and like excuse
the word, but like entertaining.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yeah, well, I mean, speaking of entertaining and entertaining kids specifically,
it seems as though, you know, I grew up in
the nineties. I definitely wasn't a latch key kid, but
we were expected to entertain ourselves. And I feel as
though in the time since when I was a small kid,
parents have seemed in this US at least, to become
(23:01):
more and more responsible for managing their kids downtime, managing
their after school activities and getting them from you know,
ballet to judo to soccer practice to violin and sort
of packing their schedules full of things.
Speaker 5 (23:15):
Is that the thing?
Speaker 2 (23:16):
I know, Mimi still little, but is that something that
you're noticing is as culturally present in France or is
it less present here?
Speaker 4 (23:24):
I think it is.
Speaker 5 (23:26):
I mean maybe does ballet and judo?
Speaker 4 (23:28):
Okay, her activities, I'm like, and I'm trying to like
put a tennis racket in her hand. I'm like, Mama,
played tennis, do you want to play tennis too?
Speaker 5 (23:37):
Next year? And she she's kind of saying no.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
So I'm trying not to like force that onto her,
but she will play no.
Speaker 5 (23:44):
But yeah, I think like kids do a lot of
activities here.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
There are parents that are like, you know, very focused
on making sure that kids are doing activities and getting
into like XYZ school. I have the idea and also
just like very like attentive to the kids. They're not
just like play on your own, you know, parents. I
go to the park a lot, and I it's kind
(24:08):
of like I always pick my daughter up at four
thirty and we go to the park when it's nice,
and a lot of times in my neighborhood it's like
me and a lot of the new news, like a
lot of the nannies. But then there are a few
parents too, and I kind of I like to like
sit on the side and I'm like, okay, park time
is like we're here so she can play with other
kids and like you know, run around and do stuff
like that. I don't like to play with her at
(24:29):
the park so much because I just think like, yeah,
there's other kids around, you know.
Speaker 5 (24:33):
A little bit, but like have fun with the kids.
Speaker 4 (24:36):
But yeah, there are parents that are like helicoptering around
their kids and playing with them throughout the park, and
I don't want to be like hunched over my phone,
so I'm just kind of like daydreaming and looking around.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
But yeah, in Paris specifically, do you have a lot
of different parks that you can go to, or do
you have a couple in your neighborhood that you really like.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
I love to go to the Square on there, which
is right by my place. I love it. It's just
it's small, it has like a view of this Africa.
It has like pretty flowers. It's relatively clean. Because we
also go to mont Alone, which is between the ninth
and that's closer to your place, actually between the ninth
and the tenth, and that's a big park, but it
(25:16):
is dirty. There's just like I won't be two girls,
but if you sometimes my daughter is like she loves flowers,
so she tries to climb into like the flower area
and like in the bushes, and there is some human
feces in there sometimes.
Speaker 5 (25:33):
And I'm like, God, out of there. It's just kind
of like a dirty park.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
But yeah, I mean I don't think, you know, coming
from New York, people say like aut Paris it has
no green space and like complain about it, but I
honestly find that there's parks are fairly accessible. I think
what's hard about Paris though, is that, like if I
did want to like take me to play tennis or
take your how to like ride a horse or something
(25:58):
like that, you do have to travel. Bit it's usually
like around the covery or so to do certain like
sports and stuff, it is a little bit harder.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
And when you do those sports and those activities for
French kids, is it still mainly on Wednesdays that they
would do those activities rather than as like an after
school situation.
Speaker 5 (26:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
So I don't know if people listening, no, but Wednesdays
in France is usually kids get out of school either
at eleven thirty and go have lunch at home. And
Mimi did that for a while, but now I've like
scooched it back to one thirty so she'll have lunch
at school and then I pick her up. But yeah,
it's kind of crazy. I'm like, I don't know how
parents do it because a lot of kids, most kids
(26:39):
like go home. So I'm lucky because I'm a freelancer,
so i can just be there and.
Speaker 5 (26:43):
Take her through our activities. But otherwise you need healthcare
because you have to be clear.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
French kids don't go to school on Wednesday afternoons at all.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
Well, I mean the thing is you can you can
sign them up for like they have activities and stuff
like recreational things that they do, so it is it
is available, you have to pay for it, right, Yeah,
most parents will take their kids out either at eleven
thirty or one thirty, and yeah, everybody goes to like activity,
So that's the day that Mimi does judo. Yeah, I
guess this. At first, I was like, what is this
(27:13):
system of like a hot day on Wednesdays?
Speaker 5 (27:15):
And now I've just like accepted it.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
You know, we do some fun things we'll do like
a playdate after judo or something.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
So okay, and when does she do ballet?
Speaker 5 (27:25):
She does ballet? Thursday nights.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Okay, kind of a slog because there'sday night at five o'clock.
She just turned five, but she's tired, and so I
have to like, there's some lollipops involved together there. Sometimes
I have not a book bribing my child.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I mean, we all turned out five and I was
definitely bribed.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
So oh yeah, that's what my mom says about television
when I'm like, Mom, like, don't let her watch another show.
Like if we're visiting my mom in New York, it's like,
you watch shows all the time and you came out great,
and I'm like, yeah, them have smartphones, tablets.
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(28:26):
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right back after a word from our sponsors. So there's
been lots of different reports, essays, books about the differences
(28:46):
between raising kids in France and raising kids in the US.
What are some of the biggest differences that you've noticed
in terms of the culture of raising kids in France.
And then on the flip side, is there anything that
you feel like people you know paint the French as
being perfect parents and standing out from American parents in
a certain way where you're like, actually, that doesn't seem
(29:07):
to be the case to me.
Speaker 8 (29:08):
Well, one thing that comes to mind is the shame factor.
I think in the US there can be a lot
of shame surrounding what you do or don't do with
your kids, and like, you know, people that are a
little bit moralistic about what decisions you make when you're
pregnant or as a parent, like from breastfeeding, for example.
(29:33):
I love breastfeeding because it made my life easier for me,
but absolutely completely understand it's it's a personal choice. You
don't have to breastfeed, and I think in the US
people feel guilty if they don't breastfeed. And I remember
one of my ex's friends who had a baby a
little bit before us I think I asked her, I'm like,
(29:53):
are you brestfeeding?
Speaker 4 (29:54):
She's like no, and I was like oh, and she's
like human kiuah, Like she was like, I want to smoke,
I want to have a drink, like not excessively, but
she was just like, just don't feel like it.
Speaker 5 (30:06):
It's like all right, And I kind of like that.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
You know, there's a million reasons why breastfeeding might not
work for you, or maybe you just don't want to,
and that's fine, And I think that's more acceptable here.
And it's more acceptable to prioritize yourself your happiness and
you know, the plain thing like say, you have to
put on your mask before you help others. And I
think that that's you know, it's a good thing to
keep in mind for moms, like you do have to
(30:30):
take care of yourself. You have to like keep prioritizing
your happiness too, in order to be a good mom.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
And I think that's a huge difference, and it's definitely
something that maybe makes being a mom. Already you have
a lot of hormones and a lot of you know,
things that are changing in your life, and not having
that added shame must make it a lot easier to navigate.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
Yeah, mom, guilt is like I deal with that a lot.
I talked to my therapist about it. I think it's
just it's hard. I mean maybe that's just personal to
be like I think about it a lot, like what
I could be doing better and this and that, and
sometimes you have to realize that, like you have to
just trust your judgment. That's what my purpose says, Like
if I have to let my daughter like watch a
show for like half an hour of five thirty, she's like, well,
(31:12):
if you prioritize picking up your daughter a four thirty,
but you still have a little bit of work to finish,
that's okay, you just like have to do it.
Speaker 5 (31:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
The other part of my question was whether you think
that there's something that either the media or just people
who look at France and think that it's perfect, which
we all know it's not. It's a place and it's
a wonderful place, but it's not a perfect place. Is
there anything that people look at French moms and they're like, oh,
they're so good at this, and you're like, yeah, maybe,
(31:40):
or it's maybe just not quite as perfect as as
it's depicted in the media.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
Yeah, for me and you know, French people might come
for me for this, but sometimes in parenting there's this
side that for me can feel a little cold. I
for example, I'm like a very affectionate person. I love
like struggling with my daughter every night before bed, we
read books together, and she often likes to like lie
(32:08):
in my bed, which makes more sense because it's a
lot bigger, it's more comfortable. But she'll sleep in my
bed sometimes because she'll fall asleep there and I don't
feel like moving her. And I have absolutely no problem
with that, like I find you know, in two years,
she's probably not gonna want to spend time with me
at all, and if she wants to like sleep in
my bed sometimes now I don't mind that. But French
people for the most part are like, no, like the
(32:32):
childhoods their bed, this is the adult bed. No, there's
no like sleeping there. And to me being like from this,
I don't know. Maybe I'm like a little bit of
bit hippie or something, but I don't agree with that,
and I don't I don't know, I don't. I feel
like there's something sweet about like letting your kids do
stuff like that while they're little. To me and they
(32:53):
can be to me a little bit rigid about like
no bult are like this kid like this.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
I mean that rigidity is something I I've definitely seen
in like, for example, the French school system, especially as
you know, you get older. I did some of my
high school in France, and there's a lot of just
sort of these are the boxes in which you are
meant to be. Has that been something that you've encountered
yet in Mimi's schooling or are you having her an
international school at all, or maybe she's still young enough
(33:21):
that that's not something you've come up against.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
She's in the public school. But so it's not exactly
the way you described it. But I remember when she
first started at three, it was a big transition because
when she was in daycare before that, I would drop
her off at ten and pick her up at like
whenever three or something, so it was like.
Speaker 5 (33:38):
An easy day for her.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
And then when she started maternal at three years old,
it was eight twenty in the morning to either eleven
thirty on Wednesdays otherwise like four thirty. So it's like
a long day for a little person. And I think,
you know, she just wasn't really a morning person. At
that point. So for two months solid, when we would
(34:03):
drop her off, she would cry and scream and like
the teacher would be like, it's better if you go,
and I just like it would break my heart every day,
and I just I felt like they were like, okay, goodbye,
and maybe that's been the best, right, Like maybe it's
better to not like I shouldn't be sentimental about it,
(34:24):
like she's crying, I shouldn't like. But sometimes I would
walk out of the school in like tears and just
feel like a failure of a mom. And yeah, it's
not like I went to like a Montessory school when
I was little, and they're a little bit more touchy feely.
They're not so much like that in the French school theater.
They're good, but it's like a more of a like
a professional okay, like drop your kid off, goodbye?
Speaker 3 (34:45):
Okay, does she like school now?
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (34:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (34:48):
And you know what they used to say. They'd be like,
literally three minutes after you leave, she's fine, don't worry
about it. She forgets about it, but and yeah, now
she loves it. She's really blossomed. Three was tough. There
was less, she didn't have Terrible two's she had terrible
threes with the tantrums, and then four was better and
five is like I don't know, I feel like this
(35:09):
is like a I'm coasting a lot. It's a great
period and I'm sure it's gonna get hard again soon.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
But is she speaking both languages and sort of blossoming
in that as well, and in terms of being like
a bicultural, bilingual little person.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
Yeah, yeah, I mean she's always been bilingual. She started,
I like she's she even from like the time she
started speaking, she would speak both French and English and
a little bit of Spanish because that was like her
first language because we went there for a while during
the pandemic to Majorca. So like the first song she
sang was in Myroquine, Oh my goodness. Yeah, so she
(35:48):
had a lot of languages in her head. But now
she's at the point where she can, like really she
can translate for me, Like so it's not just like
thoughtlessly speaking two languages. Like I can say to her,
like how do you say that in English? Or how
do you say that in French? And she can do
like the translation. I'm very it's very impressive.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
That's really cool.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
That's very pretty amazing language awareness for someone so little.
Speaker 4 (36:10):
Yeah, and then she corrects my pronunciation, like if I'm
reading it, I'm like, she's like.
Speaker 5 (36:16):
Mamma, she makes me feel stupid.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
That's I mean, that's what kids are for, right, to
make their parents stupid.
Speaker 5 (36:27):
Yeah, and to and yeah, and to like make us laugh. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (36:30):
Sometimes I say stupid and that's for her, that's a
that's a bad word. And she look at me and
she's like.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Oh, what does she call you mama?
Speaker 5 (36:42):
Yeah? Yeah. I can't even do her accent because it's
like she says, she doesn't say.
Speaker 4 (36:47):
Like moment, I don't know. She doesn't sound like quite
like a little French girl, and she says it. But
one thing that always freaks me out is when, like
if we're in New York for a little while, she'll
say mommy, and I'm like, who are this?
Speaker 3 (37:00):
So she doesn't call you mommy?
Speaker 4 (37:02):
No, never, I think just when she's like being like
funny when we're in New York and she hears like
her cousin saying that, oh. Sure. She had a little
meltdown the other day about like not liking her curly hair,
and I was like, please, you're I don't know it's
like I'm navigating that now.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
Poor little curly girl.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Although she has beautiful ringlets, it took me until like
maybe ten years.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
Ago to figure out how to have curly hair, so
she's already.
Speaker 5 (37:30):
It's a lot of work.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
It's a lot of work, but once you figure it out,
it's amazing.
Speaker 4 (37:34):
So yeah, I think she gets a lot of attention
for it. Like in the street, people are always like, oh, oh,
it's like so pretty, and she like she likes it.
But then, yeah, I don't know. Kids after a while,
you know, they don't want to be different. She's like,
I want straight hair like mama, and no, but you're
just so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
That's the constant fight, right, the curly girls want straight
hair and the straight haired girls want curly.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
Yeah. But and then I you know, I have to
think about my messaging too. I'm like, your hair is beautiful,
but more importantly, you're smart.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
Yeah, exactly. Your hair is just protecting your beautiful brain.
Speaker 5 (38:13):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Well, speaking of beautiful brains, where can people read more
of your work? Where can they find you on the
internet if they want to find out more about Caitlin
and living in France?
Speaker 4 (38:26):
But my portfolio is linked in my Instagram at Caitlin
Tea Gunther, and I have my website Kaitlyndunther dot com. Recently,
I've been writing a lot for Kanye Nash Traveler Washington Post,
and I've got a really exciting story coming out and Eater,
which I already I told you about at my last party,
(38:48):
so that should be dropping in the next couple of
weeks and I will hear that.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Yeah, amazing.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Well, we will put links to all of your places
to find you in the show notes. Anyone who wants
to find out more about Caitlin's perspective on food, travel,
and life in France should be sure and check that out.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
And thank you so.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Much for joining me today and telling us all about
your adventures with motherhood in France.
Speaker 3 (39:14):
It has been enlightening.
Speaker 5 (39:15):
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
Thank you so much. This is fun.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
This has been navigating the French. You can find more
from me Emily Monico at Emily Underscore in Underscore France
on Twitter and Instagram. This podcast is produced by Paris
Underground Radio. To listen to other episodes of this podcast,
or to discover more podcasts like it, please visit Paris
Underground Radio dot com.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
Thanks for listening and abientu.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
This episode of Navigating the French was produced by Jennifer
Garrity for Paris Underground Radio. For more great content, join
us on Patreon at patreon dot com slash Paris Underground
Radio
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