Ep 82 - Navigating “Paysan” with Sophie Duncan

The word "peasant" in English may bring to mind blouses, skirts, or Monty Python sketches, but paysan culture is alive and well, as author Sophie Duncan is here to explore.

https://www.amazon.fr/Beyond-Paris-insiders-guide-France/dp/1910779032 https://chateausurvivor.medium.com/


Additional thoughts from Sophie: 

"Gabrielle Chevalier's novel Clochemerle, published in 1934 is a good snapshot of the values and divisions of small country village life then. It was a spoof and made fun of the village rivalries and pretensions. Those types definitely still exist today. A great deal more light hearted than Jean de Florette.  

The school teacher, liberal. The ex retired military type tends to be more conservative, siding with the priest and his posse. The village priest has all but disappeared from our village life altogether now. In the Aude, a single priest will be responsible for 10 or more parishes, visiting only when invited for funerals and baptisms. 

The local struggle to control the water still goes on.

Having been involved in renovating the Chateau, something I noticed change was on an aesthetic level of taste. The paysan life, idealised as far back as Mariantoinette, valued hand crafted items produced skillfully and at no cost, artisanal,l natural gathered from woodland and field.  An escape from modern excess. 

It values a sense of simplicity, a commitment to minimal waste, and a homely, handcrafted aesthetic. Even high-powered professionals find themselves longing for the uncomplicated quality of paysan life.
Nowadays land gets sold and farmers need a loan, and a concrete bungalow pays the tractor loan and makes more sense than cultivating  firewood or selling mushrooms at the market. My favourite villager one assorted me that back where I came from the ‘paysans’ there would also know the power of the phases of the moon in all matters. If he were alive now I think he would be amazed by how lunar cycles have been jetisoned.

Even though that type of country life is still way more robust than it is in England the aesthetic has changed too.

For example in our village there was a grove of wild pomegranates, a rare strain that ripened these wonders until christmas. People would come from far and wide to the village to admire them, and the view.  A mayor came to power, not from the village who had them bulldozed, then got a grant to build a wall in the Toulouse Hospital car park aesthetic. 

Although hearts bled there is a reflex that getting a grant for anything is a wonderful thing. But maybe that is more of a continuation of the way things are going. The impression believing they can have something for nothing is defin timely an achilles heel. Another mayor in another village is busily bringing back the fruit trees. Overall though the shift to the uniform, predictable and lower skilled way of life.

Not so long ago locals once set on a career could stick to it to the end but now the jobs end and they wish to learn something new they need to leave the countryside. The real paysan sensibility and skills are more and more a rarity and knowing the rules of grants and loans is more important than the phases of the moon and the wisdom of good husbandry"


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Credits 
Host: Emily Monaco. @Emily_in_France; Website: http://www.tomatokumato.com and http://www.emilymmonaco.com
Producer: Jennifer Geraghty. @jennyphoria; Website: http://jennyphoria.com

Music Credits 
Édith Piaf - La Vie en Rose (DeliFB Lofi Remix) 
🎵 MSKD Sounds:  http

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
You are listening to Navigating the French on Paris Underground Radio.
For more great content and a bonus episode of Navigating
the French, please join us on Patreon.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hello and welcome to Navigating the French, the podcast where
each episode we take a look at a French word
and try and see what it tells us about French culture.
I'm your host, Emily Monico. Today I'm joined by Sophie Duncan,
the author of Beyond Paris, an insider's guide to rural France.
She's here to explore a distinct element of French rural

(00:35):
culture linked to its long standing agricultural roots. Paison Welcome
Sophie to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining
me today.

Speaker 3 (00:48):
Hi Emily, thank you for having me so.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
For our listeners at home. Some might have already discovered
you on TV. Could you share a little bit about
who you are and what you do slash did here
in France. I think you kind of lived up to
a lot of people's biggest dream.

Speaker 4 (01:08):
We moved out to France in nineteen ninety seven. We
had a sort of unofficial prenup that we wouldn't stay
in London and my husband was absolutely passionate about Katar
history and took me down there on a reconnaissance. We
drove around all summer looking at places in around to

(01:29):
lose around the ode, getting closer and closer to his
Katar castles, and then, in a moment of complete folly,
bought a huge chateau that had been mostly abandoned for
over one hundred years and moved in with one plug
in a porterloo and started renovating it.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
God, and that is just like such a crazy dream,
potentially sometimes an nightmare. I mean, I don't know what
that experience was like for you.

Speaker 4 (02:04):
After about a year, Ryan Es started flying and we
considered this an act of God.

Speaker 3 (02:10):
It was meant to be.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
That's perfect. Well, I've brought you onto the podcast today
to talk about a number of different things, but kind
of all surrounding this idea of the word paison, which
we see in a number of different contexts in the
French language. You know, the most apt translation is peasant,
which you know can make you think either depending on

(02:34):
when you grew up of you know, peasant blouses and
peasant skirts, or you know, yelling at someone, oh you peasant.
In French, it doesn't it has a slightly different context.
So I mean, I think in English we have these connotations,
these almost negative connotations of the word peasant, and it's
also quite an old fashioned word, whereas in France I

(02:55):
feel like it's actually still used to this day. Can
you tell us a little bit about sort of the
encounters with peasant culture that you had while you were
doing this big renovation project.

Speaker 4 (03:07):
Absolutely, I don't think that I would have ever rushed
into that folly if it hadn't been for the Paysan
quality of that part of the world. It's absolutely true
that I remember talking to people out at dinner about
the peasants and my husband saying, don't say peasant.

Speaker 3 (03:29):
So yeah, you have to say Paysan.

Speaker 4 (03:31):
But in fact, for me, their presence was really part
of the magic, the way that the land is tended
that very very small scale. I had really such vivid
memories as a child driving through France to Spain and
stopping overnight in French villages and being sort of kidnapped
by the French women in the village and taken to
see the rabbits and given some eggs to take home.

(03:55):
So absolutely, the Paysan culture in France is unrecognizable from
the word that we use for peasant in English. I'm
not sure about in the States, it probably doesn't even exist.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yeah, in the US, I think our use of the
word peasant comes straight from the UK because we wouldn't
have really had you know, we didn't have a feudal past,
so we don't have a peasant culture.

Speaker 4 (04:19):
Yeah, And they are very very much part of the village.
There's strong peasant roots in most of the village. There's
a book called the Compoi which is held in every
mary and sometimes they've been destroyed in the Revolution, but
not always. And you can find the village names going
back to the time of Saint Louis in them. So

(04:42):
it's they have a very very strong sense of belonging
and ownership. And I think probably like all rural communities
that outsiders move into, there's a whole network of knowledge
and relationships that you'll never really privy to.

Speaker 3 (05:02):
But they do love to share their savoirfare.

Speaker 4 (05:06):
And their passions, and they love to In my book,
I say how the best of the best is usually
found at the kitchen door of a local. If it's
blanket or a variety of grape, or a renclaud a
green gage, at the perfectly right time of year. They're
just condocervable this sort of thing, and they love to

(05:28):
share that part of their lives absolutely.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
And I think as foreigners, and especially if Anglophones, we
have this tendency to overly romanticize sort of the French
rural culture. But the reality, I mean, I'm quite familiar
with the ode as well, which is just such an
amazing kind of lost department that I feel like I
almost don't want to tell too many people about it
because of how amazing it is, and I don't want

(05:52):
anything about it to change. But at the same time,
I do want people to go because I want them
to reap some of the benefits of tourism. But I
think one thing that's really interesting in French rural culture
is that even though we do I think, maybe slightly
overly romanticized things, the reality is that France remains an
extremely agricultural society as compared to something like the US,

(06:17):
which is heavily industrialized, or the UK, which underwent the
Industrial Revolution long before France did. I mean, France really
only becomes industrialized after World War Two, and so those
little rural enclaves and this Peisan culture did really survive
into the second half of the twentieth century, which I
feel means and you know, I'd love to hear your

(06:39):
perspective on this, because you've actually lived there, among it
and within it. I get the sense that whereas there
is this sort of return to our roots, as it were,
you know, among Americans and among Brits, in France, we
didn't actually get that far removed from those roots. There
wasn't quite as big a disconnect that paysan culture.

Speaker 4 (07:01):
Is that the sense that you get absolutely and you
could actually talk about the decisions that France made commercially
about not signing up entirely into the Marshall Plan after
World War II, where they clung onto that independence, and
I think that is a reflection or an extension of

(07:23):
that very fierce sense of independence that every local community
has in terms of being able to have their forests.
Our village had its own quarry nearby, and that is slowly,
slowly being forced out just of the way that global.

Speaker 3 (07:42):
Economics are at the moment.

Speaker 4 (07:44):
I remember having a conversation, but there were still three
big farmers in our village, people who had a lot
of land. But of course, back just after the war,
everyone in the village would have been involved in agriculture
in some way, and he was saying, you know, back
then we had much less land, and we didn't have

(08:05):
any equipment. We didn't have all this agricultural equipment. We
couldn't hire a harvester or have this great, big tractor.
But now we're busier, we have more work and we
have less leisure because we have so much more land
that we look after. So their lives have changed a lot,
and people, you know, it's a source of sadness and

(08:28):
regret to them that they's you know, caught in all
those credit things of the massive investment they made in
their tractor, which has an impact on it. What I
liked about the ode is actually the boulders. It's so
rocky and mountainous. Up until after the war, the forest

(08:50):
around us was all terraced with terrace walls. If you
went walking in the forest, you would see trees growing
through dry stone walls. And until that time, when people
still worked with donkeys and horses, that was all arable
in that time that the farmer was talking to me about.

Speaker 3 (09:08):
And now they work in the.

Speaker 4 (09:09):
Big fields, but they still have to work around the boulders,
and that keeps the really big industrial scale of agriculture
out of the Ode, which I think there are more
species of flora and fauna in the Ode department than
there are in the entire British isles.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
Wow, I had no idea.

Speaker 4 (09:31):
There's Mediterranean climate, there's the Garigue, there's the Pyrenees.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (09:39):
It's so fabulously diverse and beautiful, and people are very
proud of that and aware of that.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
And in your book, I mean you delve into sort
of the variety that you find not just in the
Ode but in the other French departments. And one thing
I really loved that you wrote was that in the
French countryside sort of country pursuits as it were, are
far more accessible to know your average visitor than they
might be in the UK. Can you tell me a

(10:08):
little bit more about what that's like in the Ode
and in France in general.

Speaker 4 (10:12):
Yes, So many things that sort of slightly middle class
and she can share in the UK are much more accessible,
particularly good food, good beauty products, and sport, whether it's
equitation or water sports, hiking. My husband used to say
that when the revolution happened, the idea wasn't that everyone

(10:37):
became equal, but everybody could do everything that the aristocrats
and the upper classes were doing. And so you do
find that things like eating oysters in the sunshine outside,
having a really really fine cheese, going to a whole

(10:58):
food shop and have an amazing range of reasonably priced
cosmetics sitting out are things that in France people are
entitled to do. The exception to that, of course, is
hunting on horseback.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
See I was going to say the hunting example, but
I mean, hunting on horseback is one thing. But I
mean I was just in the Ode. I got back
yesterday and oh yeah, funnily enough, and on Wednesday you
heard all of the guns going off because everybody was
hunting for wild boar and Wednesday is hunting day, right,
and that and that is I mean, not on horseback,

(11:35):
but it is accessible to everybody.

Speaker 4 (11:37):
That's right, and that that was a huge part of
that sense of equality. And that's what hunting is like cycling,
one of those sort of very sacred things that are
fiercely defended. There was a big wind for farm debate
going on in San Furial and still is in the
area because the ode is quite famous for being windy.

(12:00):
In fact, a lot of French people will say, oh, yes,
it's very windy down there, and it's the exact opposite
to in the States. The Paysan are very pro wind
farm and in the States it's the opposite. It's the
sort of the liberal hippie progressive types who are for
wind farms and the other way around. So the hunters

(12:23):
do have a reputation for being quite the conservative end
of the community, and people are quite baffled by things
like they hunt on Wednesdays, which is the day children
have off from school.

Speaker 3 (12:37):
So it's a yeah, that is a source.

Speaker 4 (12:39):
Of tension in the rural communities because of course the
hunters want the wind farms because they're very practical pays
antypes and they get money for them, like duh.

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(13:16):
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back to Navigating the French. One other thing that I
love among with that sort of mindset of the hunting, though,
is that it's not hunting for sport. Really it is

(13:37):
hunt I mean it is, but it's also hunting. You know,
in the region where I was, for example, a lot
of the hunters or wine growers and they're hunting wild
boar because the bore come and nose around in their
vineyards and eat all of the sweet grapes. And then
when you actually do get a bore, you're going to
eat it. And even in regions or among people who
aren't hunting, I feel like the paison will often, you know,

(13:58):
on a rainy day go out and mushroom hunt, and
in March they're going to go look for spring asparagus.
Like there is very much still this proximity to the
land to foraging. Did you notice that when.

Speaker 4 (14:10):
You were absolutely yeah, And the hunters engage a lot
with non hunters in terms of being in another conduit
into keeping the paths open and knowing what's happening around
the woodland where it doesn't get regularly visited in the
way it used to be in the woodland and so on.

(14:32):
Which is something that's going to have a huge impact
on rural life in France, is the actually the laws
against woodburning. That's going to have an extraordinary impact on lifestyle,
because even if people weren't still farmers in San Feriol,
they would still have their little bit of woodland, and
every autumn you tier chainsaws revving up, and that was

(14:55):
something that was very much part of that Blowkish country
life and one of the things that the hunters would be,
you know, reporting back to the village on I'm.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
Curious because we're hundreds of years after the revolution now,
but obviously a chateau historically in France would have symbolized
the aristocracy and the paison would have been the exact
opposite of that. Now that we're hundreds of years after
this fight for equality, what was the sense you got
as someone who came in and took possession of this

(15:28):
symbol of the aristocracy among the sort of paisan. Were
they welcoming? Did they put you in that you know, oh,
they must be snooty and aristocratic, and we don't want
anything to do with them. What was kind of the
feeling about that?

Speaker 4 (15:42):
From your perspective, there's a very mixed feeling generally among
the French. I think the Paisan were probably more open
minded than a lot of other types of French people.
They were more interested in how you were going to
be with them, if you were interested with them. I

(16:04):
remember going to see my favorite lady in the village
when I first arrived, I was only just thirty. I
had this great, big diamond ring on my finger, and
I remember looking at it and nodding and going, it's
all right, so quite glad that I was conventional, showing
off that we had a bit of the wherewithal I

(16:25):
think they look with great amusement as well, because I
think the English do go in very naive. I do
think that outsiders are ultimately an entertainment act because they
know that they're always going to be doing. They're not
personally invested, unless, of course, you know, there's a plot
of land that they're interested and so on. So most

(16:46):
of their interaction with you there isn't sharing recipes, telling
you to take your clothing off the line, because it
might freeze and then it will break, and you know,
practical little interactions like that is business.

Speaker 3 (17:01):
And it is.

Speaker 4 (17:01):
Fair to say that they are fairly savvy in terms
of and I think that's one of the things that
the French love about them.

Speaker 3 (17:09):
They've got these.

Speaker 4 (17:10):
Values that are really key to the French people, which
is not wasting things, being very careful with money, because
I think the French are much more careful about money
than Brits.

Speaker 5 (17:23):
Yeah, and a little bit also, I don't know if cagy,
they're a little cagy about money, Like I think there
is a lot of things that you can talk about
at the dinner table with the French person, and you
know a lot of things that Americans might say.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
Oh, don't talk about politics, don't talk about the French
are like, no, let's talk about politics, like, talk about
all of it. But money always feels like one of
those topics that's a little bit off the table.

Speaker 3 (17:47):
Absolutely, yeah, very true.

Speaker 4 (17:49):
And they're completely baffled by people bragging about how much
money they have.

Speaker 3 (17:55):
Is just unfathomable.

Speaker 2 (17:58):
I think it would be impossible for us to talk
about Paisant in the current sort of political climate without
talking about the wave of protests that we saw earlier
this year and last year, the rise of farmer suicides,
the fact that, you know, for a country that positions
itself as being so agricultural and so wedded to its

(18:21):
terroir and traditions, it is currently a country where especially
smaller farmers just can't make a living. Is that something
that you were already encountering when you were living in
the Ode, the sort of struggle.

Speaker 4 (18:34):
Yeah, absolutely, it's you know, the way that they might
have to get in. Debt I'm sure is a very
big factor behind that, and I think people are trying
to find new ways of doing it, and the government
is trying to set up micro ontities with allowances to
try and make it more possible for people.

Speaker 3 (18:55):
I think that.

Speaker 4 (18:56):
Small peasant farmers in the Ode probably have a better
standard of living and a better standard of life and
more integrated than other less agricultural parts of France. There's
something in the Ode called I can't pronounce this because
it's got two hours and I don't even know how
many vowels in it, but the NU vote, and this

(19:20):
is something that the Ode is all. That's one of
the charms of the Ode is that even in the
seventies people would come down from Brittany looking for somewhere
that was a little bit trapped in time and not
moving forward. And they're still there. They're still keeping their
goats and running their farms and campaigning against wind farms
and very much part of the what's called the babbical community.

(19:45):
But they're actually often very seriously engaged in a lot
of activists in France actually just do it through court.
They don't muck about with demonstrations and burning tires. They're
doing league actions. That's what it was like in the
ode that I came across as well. They were actually participating.

Speaker 3 (20:08):
In that way.

Speaker 4 (20:09):
And now there's Anuva Ruro coming down and they're not
that sort of activist seventies type who were coming down then,
but they're young people who have the dream of having
a little postage and selling their eggs at the market
and their ducks, and some of them are doing quite
well and managing if they can keep away from the bottle.

Speaker 3 (20:32):
They managed to do well.

Speaker 2 (20:34):
Well, and I think it definitely comes It's a certain
kind of work ethic you have to have, I think
in a country that celebrates and I mean it's famous
for having a thirty five hour work week. One of
the biggest complaints I've heard from small family farmers is
I can't hire help because you're thirty five hours. You
do them in two days, so I don't actually get

(20:56):
any extra help. So if you're not working as a family,
potentially you know, with a partner, with a spouse, maybe
with your children, with your you know, I report a
lot on cheese and I've met a lot of cheese
farmers where it's like, oh yeah, my sister, my brother,
my brother in law, it's all families because they can't
actually hire anybody. And so that's I mean, one major

(21:17):
thing I've seen. I'm glad to see this neoro thing happening,
because you need, we need young people to come in
and take over these businesses because they are businesses, and
actually bring them forward because right now, you know, if
people are aging out of owning these businesses, a lot

(21:39):
of the children don't want to take over because they've
seen their parents work to the bone.

Speaker 3 (21:42):
Basically, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:45):
So are you still spending any time in the ode now.

Speaker 4 (21:48):
Or I'm going back for a week in November.

Speaker 3 (21:52):
I go back fairly regularly and keep in touch.

Speaker 4 (21:56):
I don't think I've kept in touch with people as
much as I would like to. And usually when I
go back, I have to deal with business because I'm
there so rarely, but I always go and have my
favorite carpachio and speak to my favorite neighbors. Sadly, my
favorite Posan family have all passed away, but there are apparently.

(22:18):
And you were saying earlier, how you think that it,
you know, to encourage people to go there for tourism, Emily,
But the other thing that's happening in the region, which
is really good is that people are going and living
there and working at the distance. And that's something that
is happening in my village and in the area, and

(22:39):
that does bring a lot of good because then they
can genuinely engage in the community, support the local agriculture
and the local economy, local building, trade, local restaurants in winter.
I'm not sure if the restaurants in winter would survive
without all the blow ins that there are there. And

(22:59):
so that is area of hope in the area because
it is such a special and distinct place to go
that the people who go there do you go there
because they love it and they want to support the
things there that make it the rural time warp that
it is.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
When was the first year that you were there ninety seven?

Speaker 3 (23:24):
Okay, nineteen ninety seven.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
So between nineteen ninety seven and now, what are some
of the biggest changes that you've seen come to the
sort of the Paisan culture.

Speaker 4 (23:36):
For me, it's really the people that I miss. I
think it's probably a case of being the toad in
the water and not noticing the changes so much. But
certainly there are less Paisan. The smaller businesses are closing down,
and that network that rezo arm of them is diminishing,

(23:58):
and they're losing friends, the people they used to go
and get a particular pigeon from and bring back and
so on. It's just becoming more rare and less less
of diverse, but still quite robust. I can't say that
I turn around and see any kind of disappearance of
it at all, And really thanks a lot to the people,

(24:21):
the blow ins from other parts of France who come
in and start taking up the challenge and taking over
the land, and also the state support for that.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
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and now back to navigating the French. And one thing

(24:56):
I really love in your book is that you focus
so intently on regions that are not Paris, because I
think so many people come to France and they go
straight to Paris and maybe they'll take a trip out
to Champagne or maybe to the Normandy d Day beaches,
But there are so many little gems of areas that
you profile, you know, through your book and by way

(25:19):
of these other sort of how do you pronounce the
chateau nuts, chateauntes, chatateau nuts who've gone and really put
in the time and effort and passion into renovating these
beautiful terroir and shining a light maybe on some of
these communities that we might not otherwise know about. So
that's a really exciting.

Speaker 4 (25:39):
Thing, absolutely, And that was one thing that I found
with everybody was that that was something that had really
resonated with them, was that the most accepting people and
open people who don't have an agenda, who don't have
a prejudice or the Paism and the other French people

(26:03):
who are trying to do the same thing, because they
also understand that you're not in it for the money,
you're not in it for the status, and that it
is just a genuine passion that you've been.

Speaker 3 (26:14):
Whipped up in.

Speaker 4 (26:16):
And I think other people are quite skeptical and distrustful
and just can't figure out why anybody would do something
that insane.

Speaker 2 (26:27):
Sophy, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.
For anyone who wants to discover more about Sophie and
her passion for Paisan community, I'm going to put a
link to your book in the show notes. Is there
anywhere else where people can find you learn more about
your adventures? Social media, your website, anything like that.

Speaker 4 (26:47):
Well, I write on the blog medium. I don't have
my own website except for my business, which is I
give historical tools in Oxford and also a platform for
other guy to specialize in historical niches in Oxford and otherwise.
The book Beyond Paris, An Insider's Guide to Rural France

(27:10):
is available on at Barns and Nobles and Waterstones online
as well in Blackwells in Oxford as well as Amazon
and as a kindle.

Speaker 2 (27:19):
Perfect and we'll put a link to your medium as well.
The only other question that I have for you is
what's your favorite French word?

Speaker 3 (27:29):
Off?

Speaker 2 (27:32):
Oh, I do like that one. It's not officially, it's not,
it's it's very it's very French.

Speaker 3 (27:41):
It is.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
Yeah, that's a good one.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
I don't think we have it in English.

Speaker 2 (27:45):
No, those are the best words with viewing at all. Amazing.
Thank you so much for joining me. Have a fantastic
rest of your day.

Speaker 4 (27:55):
Being a real pleasure, and thank you for your wonderful podcasts.

Speaker 2 (27:59):
Thank you. This has been Navigating the French. You can
find more from me Emily Monico at Emily Underscore in
Underscore France, on Twitter and Instagram. This podcast is produced
by Paris Underground Radio. To listen to other episodes of
this podcast, or to discover more podcasts like it, please
visit Paris Underground radio dot com. Thanks for listening and abientu.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
This episode of Navigating the French was produced by Jennifer
Garerty for Paris Underground Radio. For more great content, join
us on Patreon at Patreon dot com. Slash Paris Underground
Radio