TIME CAPSULE: Near Death Experiences w Jimmy Akin

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
We are being hypnotized.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Why people like this.

Speaker 3 (00:12):
News readers, politicians, teachers, lecturers. We are in a country
and in a world that is being run by unbelievably
sick people. The chasm between what we're told is going
on and what it's really going on is absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Oh yeah, dude, listened that from ship because like, we
all know what's going down, but no one says what
happened to the home of the brief? They can do
this now and then we're talking about and the Siddy
Plase and everybody's just walking around out in the present a.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
Week and to go in the greve, but a little
name we need to be ready.

Speaker 4 (00:51):
To raise that.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
Welcome to the end of everybody.

Speaker 4 (01:00):
Welcome back, guys to another episode of Nephelum Death Squad.
I am David Lee Corbo, aka the Raven that is
top Lobster, the Father of Disinformation, and today we are
joined by Jimmy Akin, which is actually a recommendation from
one of the fans of the show. I was talking
about near death experiences, I believe on Twitter and Jimmy's

(01:23):
name came up, and needless to say, as soon as
I clicked on his YouTube page, I knew that this
was our guy, Jimmy, can you please let the audience
know a little bit about what it is that you
do and where they can find your work.

Speaker 3 (01:36):
Yeah. Sure. So I cover a wide range of topics.
I'm a Christian apologist and so I do that for
my day job. But on the side, I also do
a lot of podcasts, and my most famous podcast is
called Jimmy Aikins Mysterious World. It's a podcast that looks
at mysteries, all different kinds of mysteries, paranormal, supernatural, scientific history, coal,

(02:00):
true crime, bigfoot, UFOs, everything, And unlike a lot of
shows that are focused on mysteries, we don't just try
to generate wonder and imagine what if, we try to
solve them. And so we look at every mystery, give
the background, and then we look at it from the
twin perspectives of faith and reason and say what would
reason tell us about this? And what would the Christian

(02:21):
faith tell us about this? And it's a top twenty
podcast among documentary podcasts on Apple Podcasts and we've got
more than two hundred thousand listeners a week.

Speaker 1 (02:32):
Incredible, man. We started this show not really knowing what
it was or what we were doing, and it turned
into yeah, if the name definitely punches you in the
mouth right off the bat. The content not so great,
but the idea we're making.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
It up as we go.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
We didn't really know what it was going to be,
if it was going to be supernatural, and it just
kind of delved down into this idea of like looking
at current day going on on through a Christian Biblical lens,
because as you as we progress, it's the only way
that any any of this makes sense. Otherwise we're just
kind of like flailing wildly in the dark right where

(03:11):
there might be aliens or there might be you know,
some something's happening in politics, but we can't explain it,
something's happening cultural. We're not sure. And then you start
reading the Bible and getting some great guests that come
on and can really decipher and explain a lot of
these things to you, and it's like, Wow, picking up
this prism has made my life a lot easier in

(03:33):
many different facets. So you're you're like, you're right at
home on this show. I'm excited to see where this goes.
And uh, yeah, man, take take it away.

Speaker 3 (03:42):
I know I've covered a lot of the similar topics.
I mean, I've I've talked about the Nephilem. In fact,
I just had the most recent episode of Mysterious World
is on the Book of Jubilees, which talks about the Nephilem.
I've got a two parter coming out on the Book
of First Enoch, which also talks about the Nephilem. I've
saw you guys had an exploration of the Book of Revelation.

(04:03):
I've done a lot of exploration of the Book of Revelation,
and also lately I've done a lot of research on
death related phenomena. So this is not just near death experiences,
but also things that occur before and after near death experiences.
So that includes what are known as deathbed visions, you know,

(04:24):
which a person has before they die, and then the
near death experiences that happen when someone is either clinically
dead or near clinically dead. And then after death there
are what are known as after death communications, which are
just spontaneous where people will report their loved ones coming
back and giving them a message. And these phenomena are

(04:48):
much more common than people realize. For example, with spontaneous
after death communications or ADC's between forty and fifty percent
of the population reports having an after death communication at
least once in their life. So these are not talked
about a lot because of basically because of the prejudice
against them in our society. In fact, near death experiences

(05:11):
weren't talked about really prior to the mid nineteen seventies
when Raymond Moody's book Life After Life came out. But
all three of these different types of experiences really do
point to an after life, and they mutually reinforce each other.
They have elements in common, and so I think it's
good to look, you know, broadly at death related phenomena

(05:35):
and see what we can learn from them.

Speaker 4 (05:37):
That's interesting. I wonder too about the other side of
the fence. So you mentioned after death communications, and I
only kind of not that I only, but I look
at these things oftentimes to my own experiential lens. And
I had a dream once where an uncle who was

(05:57):
very close to me passed away, but before he passed
away in this dream, and he wasn't, you know, in
bad health either, So I kind of pondered that sometimes
I'm like, am I thinking about it? Because he was
doing actually pretty well and he wasn't that old. He
was maybe in his in his late fifties, and it
was a medical accident that caused this event. But before

(06:22):
he passed away, I had this dream that he and
I were in a supermarket together and he was I
always say he looked like Gandalf the White. If you're
familiar with Lord of the Rings, there's Gandalf the Grain,
then there's Gandalf the White. When Gandolf is resurrected, which
those films.

Speaker 3 (06:37):
People sometimes call me Gandolf's the Red, there you go.

Speaker 4 (06:41):
So that film actually mirrors Christ on like three different levels,
where you have the resurrection of Gandolf, you know, the
resurrection of Chrisis, the return of the king, and then
there's also the suffering of Frodo Baggins. So there's these
three different Christ like elements within the film. But he
looked like Gandalf the White. He had this long flowing robe,

(07:02):
his hair was uncharacteristically white, his beard was uncharacteristically white.
Not that he had aged, but he just looked like
almost grandiose. And then shortly after the afterwards he ends
up passing away in real life, and I always kind
of held onto that connection, so uh to me, it
seems like this this phenomenon of death that awaits us all.

Speaker 2 (07:24):
You know.

Speaker 4 (07:24):
Obviously, it's so integral to the human experience, and it's
religious in nature because the existence of human beings is
biblical with nature. But it permeates the people surrounding the
person who passes away too, in such a way that
you know, it's like if your life is filled with
signs and symbols with which oftentimes when we hear these

(07:47):
near death experiences, I only have a peripheral knowledge some
of the stories that I've I've read myself's testimonies and such,
they're they're heavily symbolic, almost like I don't want to
say coded message, but you get a lot of different
things coming back from people who have had near death experiences.
There was a lot of heavy symbolism. Somehow this place

(08:08):
felt more real than the place that we inhabit. Now,
did you have you collected these through testimony of people
that you've communicated with, or are these things that you've
read and come across yourself?

Speaker 3 (08:21):
Well, these are ones that I have. I have done
a lot of reading on now. In addition to my
work as a Christian apologist, I also study parapsychology, and
in fact, I teach parapsychology at the Ryan Education Center
like this. Later this month, I'm starting a course on
Christianity and parapsychology and how the two relate to each other.

(08:46):
But there's an extensive literature in parapsychology about death related experiences.
It's survival. Bodily death is one of the two main
subject areas that parapsychology studies. The other is psychic functioning.
So parapsychology is the study of psychic functioning from a

(09:07):
scientific perspective and the study of survival of bodily death
from a scientific perspective. And so there's been a lot
of work done on these, and of course the basis
of these of these experiences is of course experiences, you know,
things that have happened to people, things that people report,
And so there are varieties of different collections that have

(09:30):
been made of hundreds of near death experiences and hundreds
of deathbed visions and hundreds of after death communications. They're
done in different countries here, like on the subject of
after death communications, I read one collection that was primarily American,
but I read another that was Icelandic. You know, in

(09:55):
the study of deathbed visions, I've got one collection or
one book that's considered a in the field. That is
a study of reports from over eight hundred doctors and nurses.
But they're divided between the United States and India because
they wanted to compare cross culturally and see how do

(10:16):
these things change cross culturally. Do they report different things
in America than they do in India or are they
substantially the same? And it turns out they're substantially the same.
So I have, you know, talked to people who have
had such experiences. In fact, I have family members who
have had both deathbed visions and near death experiences and

(10:41):
after death communications. So I have talked to people who've
had them, and I even think I may have had
an after death communication myself, which I'm happy to tell
you about if you want. But primarily what I'm drawing
on today is case study collections and survey and looking

(11:01):
at the phenomena in aggregate, you know, so not just
one person. In fact, there's even reason to be suspicious
if you see, like a book that someone says I
had a near death experience and here's my book about it. Well,
most people don't have enough of an experience to get
a whole book out of So that's an atypical experience

(11:24):
at the minimum, and atypical experiences often you got to
treat them a little more skeptically, and especially if someone's
making money off it with the book, there's reason to
be suspicious about that.

Speaker 4 (11:36):
So I start grasping when you can't fill the whole book, well,
what do you do? Maybe you start filling in details
that weren't necessarily true. I do want to just draw
attention to the fact that this stream will end to
the general public probably around the fifteen to twenty minute mark,
and it will stream exclusively to our Patreon members at
Patreon dot com backslash Nephelum Death Squad. The entire episode

(11:58):
will drop it its in its tote this next week
next week on Thursday, so the following Thursday it will
air for free on our channels. But if you want
to gain early access to it, then Patreon dot com
backslash Nephlin Dead Squad is for you.

Speaker 1 (12:14):
Jimmy, go ahead, I had I had a question. So
one of the things that I know makes me skeptical
about not It's not whether or not this stuff is happening.
I know that there are these post deff experiences and
near the new deaf experiences, but how much of these
are actually the person that is visiting their loved one

(12:36):
after and how much of this is like a glamour
or a magic sort of thing. Because I know you
can test the spirits, you can ask them, this is
something that I would be like concerned about.

Speaker 3 (12:46):
Okay, so oh and before I answer that, let me
also just mention, Raven, your experience that you mentioned with
your uncle who looked like Gandalf the White Yeah, that
would be assuming that was, you know, not just a
random dream, because we all have random dreams, but assuming
it was something more than that, that would be a premonition,
a worn in ahead of time of something that that

(13:08):
was later going to happen. If if your interpretation of
it is correct, so that would be a precognitive experience
that pointed forward to your uncle's death.

Speaker 4 (13:18):
It was interesting just to note in the dream he
was walking away from me. I couldn't get his attention.
No matter how much I tried, I couldn't get around him.
It seemed that the the aisles of the supermarket had
had narrowed in such a way that I couldn't maneuver
around him, and despite my attempts to get his attention,
he just kept walking away.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
So that's kind of the way that I interpreted.

Speaker 3 (13:39):
And that can be a sign of the inevitability of death.
You know, we're not going to be able to stop it, right, Lobster.
In terms of your do you prefer top or do
you prefer lobster?

Speaker 2 (13:50):
The top is fine.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
If you're not comfortable with TOP, I get it's a
little weird. I'm fine.

Speaker 3 (13:57):
So so if I understand your question correctly, you're asking
about the what in parapsychology is known as the verticality
or truthfulness of these experiences, and there are different ways
of judging that. Now, in a lot of cases, whether
it's a deathbed vision or a near death experience or

(14:19):
an after death communication, we don't really have more than
the experience report, you know, we have, and so that's
that's all we gotta go with. And you could say, well,
this is a person's imagination, or they're making it up,
or they're mentally ill, or it was the product of
a dye in brain, or any number of things.

Speaker 4 (14:40):
Well, to interject, top, is it really that you are
alluding to whether or not this is not that the
near death experience itself is a deception, but can you
be deceived?

Speaker 2 (14:52):
Are people? Is that where you're going with this top Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
It's not it's not a I'm not asking about a
mental illness because that will play a heart but uh,
we're kind of on this. Have you have you ever
heard of doctor Jerry Morzinski.

Speaker 3 (15:05):
I've heard the name.

Speaker 1 (15:06):
Okay, Yeah, he's a he's a psychologist for a number
of years, and he thinks that schizophrenics are in contact
with entities. And I'm not sure if he thinks all
of them are, but he says that there's a vast number.
We just had him on with one of his former patients,
well yeah, his former patients, and he was basically telling
us about what what he was going through.

Speaker 3 (15:29):
I saw that, pew.

Speaker 1 (15:31):
Okay, yeah, And it's just it raises concern for me.
Whenever you have like a dead relative visit you from
uh after they've died, it's like, a is this is
this a genuine spirit? Are they are they just walking around?
Are they left out there? Or is this something trying
to get get you to consent? You know what I'm

(15:52):
saying like, do you have any idea about the numbers
on on this kind of thing.

Speaker 3 (15:57):
Yeah, so in terms of numbers, I don't, but in
terms of procedure, I do. So to me, the first
question is can we establish that anything paranormal is likely
happening here or could it just be purely natural? And
then if something paranormal is happening, then you can then

(16:21):
so it's like is it a spirit or is it
not a spirit? If it's a spirit, you can then
apply the test to spirit's principles. So I would kind
of split the question in two. First, is there anything
paranormal here? Do we have evidence for an afterlife? Or
do we have evidence for a spirit? And then second
do we have evidence for deception taking place? And so

(16:43):
like with your with your guest doctor Marzinski, I am
not at all opposed to the idea that certain types
of schizophrenics are actually experiencing something paranormal and it could
be contact with a malicious, deceptive spirit in some cases.
There are other cases where that I know about anecdotally,

(17:08):
where when you know, you go into a mental institution
and when you actually talk to the to the patients there,
they seem to be picking up on things like the
thoughts of the doctors and the nurses and things like that,
and and so there some some mental conditions may involve

(17:31):
a kind of psychic openness too, and that and that openness.
If you're picking up on the thoughts of doctors and nurses,
you could also be picking up on the thoughts of
evil spirits that are trying to mess with you. So
I'd say, we have to be careful in those areas,
and we we want to consider all the possibilities, not
just the paranormal ones. In fact, I'm a paranormal investigator.

(17:52):
In the first rule of doing a paranormal investigation is
you make a list of everything that could possibly explain
the experiences that are being reported, and then you look
at the natural explanations first, because natural phenomena are more
common than paranormal phenomena, and so you always want to

(18:14):
look at could this have a natural cause? First? But
in some cases you get evidence that something beyond just
the natural is going on. So, for example, if someone's
reporting a death related experience, whether it's before, during, or after,
they tend to fit certain They tend to have certain characteristics, like,

(18:36):
for example, in near death experiences, seeing the floating above
your body and seeing yourself. That's called autoscopy seeing yourself.
That's a common characteristic of near death experiences. So is
perceiving a very bright light that yet doesn't seem to
hurt your eyes. So is having a review of your

(18:58):
life in terms of did I do good or bad?
So is seeing either departed loved ones or angels or
you know, some kind of religious figure welcoming you into
the afterlife. So those are all common characteristics. Now, if
a particular experience has those common characteristics, then there's at

(19:21):
least a little bit more confidence that, Okay, this is
a standard one, this is not this is not totally weird.
It's something that you know has at least a modicum
of credibility. But then you can build upon that and
get in some cases and get additional credibility for it. Like,
for example, just to stick with near death experiences for

(19:43):
the moment, did the person retrieve vertical information while they
were in the near death experience, meaning did they learn
something that they didn't previously know and that they had
no natural way of and that's too specific to be
guessed by random chance, and then that turned out to

(20:05):
be true, To give a classic example in the nineteen seventies,
there was a woman named Maria. She was a migrant
worker from Latin America, but she was here in the
United States and she began to suffer heart failure and
they took her to a hospital. And while she was
in the hospital, they took her in at night, so
she couldn't even get a good look at the end

(20:26):
at the outside of the hospital, you know, they rushed
her there in an ambulance. And in the hospital she
suffered a cardiac arrest. And while she while the doctors
and nurses were working on her to try to restart
her heart, which is something that really only became possible
in the nineteen sixties, so this is pretty early in

(20:47):
resuscitation technology. But they're working to restart her heart, she
has an out of body experience. She looks down, she
sees the doctors and nurses working on her, and then
so she had autoscopy, and then she starts looking around
the rest of the hospital and she sees something very

(21:07):
odd that you would not expect to see. And they
get her heart restarted, and she doesn't really speak English,
so she's really excited and talking in Spanish, and they
bring in a hospital worker who speaks some Spanish to
talk to her, because it wasn't as common to speak
Spanish back in the nineteen seventies as it is now.

(21:28):
And she tells the hospital worker about her near death experience,
and she says, I saw a men's dark blue tennis
shoe with some scuff marks on it and the shoelace
wrapped around it on a ledge outside a window on

(21:50):
one of the upper floors of the hospital. Can you
go find that so I'll know if I'm crazy or not.
And so the hospital worker does, and she starts going
around looking out the windows on the upper floors of
the hospital and lo and behold, there is a men's
dark blue tennis shoe with scuff marks and the shoelace
wrapped around it. And she's able to open the window

(22:11):
and get it back and bring it down and show
it to Maria. So this is something very specific. Maria
did not know about this shoe before she suffered cardiac arrest.
It's too specific to guess that there would be something
like that on a ledge outside of one of the
upper floor windows, and it turned out to be true.
So that's a case of vertical information or truthful information

(22:36):
that was retrieved during the near death experience, and that
gives us additional evidence that this experience was not just
a hallucination or something like that, this was something that
was real. And because Maria did not find the shoe,
it was the hospital worker, we've got an independent witness,

(22:56):
and so independent witnesses of things also provide additional evidence
for the reality of the experience. Now, there are still
other ways of interpreting it, you could say, and this
was an idea that was explored even as early as
the late eighteen hundreds when what was then called psychical

(23:18):
research or it's now called parapsychology, then it was called
psychical research. When that first started, you know, you had
a lot of you had a lot of researchers who
were sometimes very prominent scientists, like, for example, the American
William James or the British I'm gonna blank on his
first name, but Crooks. He you won a Nobel Prize.

(23:39):
You had these psychical researchers and one of the things
they considered in some of these survival related experiences is
could this, instead of really being survival of consciousness beyond
bodily death, could it just be psychic functioning. So you
could say, okay, maybe Maria never left her body. Maybe

(24:00):
maybe she just psychically perceived there's a shoe up there
and then interpreted that as something she saw as part
of an out of body experience, even though that didn't
really happen. And so there are other ways of looking
at these things. You could also say, well, maybe a
demon planted that in her head. Well, okay, so you

(24:24):
can say such things, but how do you decide between
these options? Now, there's no way to do so one
hundred percent, But I rely on a principle that we
all rely on in philosophy. It's sometimes called phenomenal conservatism.
And the idea of phenomenal conservatism is you take every
experience as it appears until you get evidence that it

(24:49):
should be taken in some other way. And we all
do this every day. If you, let's say, I don't
know if you, gentlemen, happen to be married, but let's
say you are. You come home one day after work,
there's a woman there who looks like your wife, and
she's making dinner, and she feeds you at dinner. And
the logical way to interpret this is is it's my

(25:12):
wife serving me an ordinary dinner. It would be paranoid
to assume, based without any evidence, that it's not your wife,
it's her evil twin that you have no evidence even exists,
and she's not meeting you.

Speaker 1 (25:29):
You just messed up the rest of my wife's evening
because this is what I'm going to be doing.

Speaker 3 (25:34):
Where'd you come from?

Speaker 2 (25:36):
What were we doing five years ago?

Speaker 3 (25:38):
Yeah? That, incidentally, that's called capgross syndrome. It's a known
where you think your your loved ones are being replaced
by impostors. It's kind of like invasions of body snatchers.

Speaker 4 (25:47):
Well, have you ever heard those stories of like the
mimics right where it's like you hear your your wife's voice,
let's say, coming from the other side of the house,
and you kind of wonder to yourself, like, oh, when
did she get home? And you respond and she doesn't
say anything back, and then ten minutes later she walks
through the door and you're going, wait a second, I
just heard you from upstairs. I've read stories like that
that'll make your hair stand up on end. But what

(26:08):
you're talking about here?

Speaker 3 (26:10):
Go ahead, Well, just to tie it up, you know,
if you assume it's your wife's evil twin when you
don't even have any evidence she's got a twin. And
if you assume it's not an ordinary dinner, she's trying
to poison you so she can get insurance money. Well,
that's possible, but it's not how the experience presents itself.
And it's frankly paranoid disordered thinking to propose that without evidence. Now,

(26:33):
if you got evidence that that's what's happening, go with
the evidence, don't eat the dinner. But if you don't
have evidence, then you you need to behave normally and
in the same way when you have something like Maria's
experience with the shoe. Okay, she perceived herself leaving her
body and see in the shoe, so that would be
the logical way to interpret it until you get evidence.

(26:57):
For now it was just a psychic and she misinterpreted it,
or you get evidence that, oh there was a demon
involved doing it. But it's paranoid to go with one
of those other interpretations without evidence. As long as you
don't have evidence for something else happening, you should interpret
the experience as it presents itself. So that's how I'd

(27:20):
sort through, you know, the apparent interpretation of something versus
other possible interpretations that we don't actually have evidence for.

Speaker 1 (27:30):
Well, I'm I'm at the point now in twenty twenty
four where when I hear you say something like this,
my mind immediately goes as you're explaining this woman's experience.
What it sounds like to me is that she had
a fourth event of astral projection, which is something that
I know people do. I know Anton Levy did that.

(27:50):
You're talking when we started talking about like the Silver Cord,
and this stuff is mimicked throughout Disney movies and other
you know media. I mean even us that new show
with the Upside Down it's with the kids or whatever.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
This Strangers.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
Yeah, they're depicting some sort of astral projection as well.
And this is like, now, it's a meme in the culture,
but you can go back thirty years. I'm reading a
book that's thirty years old and there's a woman describing
this exact It's not a phenomena. Some people do it
on purpose, some people know how to do this, and
it just sounds like that's what she did. She was

(28:24):
out of her body, traveling and then snapped back in
and did it unintentionally.

Speaker 3 (28:30):
During clinical death when her heart is not functioning. Yeah,
now in terms, just in case, it's helpful. So the
term astral projection is not generally used these days in
parapsychological circles. It used to be, but it's largely been
abandoned because it has religious connotations. It comes from a

(28:54):
religion that started in the late eighteen hundreds known as Theosophy,
which was started by Madame Helenaplovatsky. And in Blavatski's view,
humans are more than just a body and a soul.
There are several other components too, one of which is
called the astral body, and the astrobody, in Blavatski's thought,

(29:20):
is not the same thing as your soul. And so
the idea was, you've got this astral body that you
can send out, and that's why it's called astral projection. Also,
they borrowed a line from the Book of Ecclesiastes which
talks about death, and it uses a metaphor that involves
a silver cord, and they would propose that the astral

(29:42):
body is connected to your physical body by a silver cord. Well, okay,
subsequent to that, there's been research done on this type
of experience today to avoid the religious connotations of theosophy,
and these have been reported all the way through history.
There's even an example of what looks like one in

(30:03):
the Bible, in fact, more than one example, like when
Saint Paul in Second Corinthian says he was caught up
to the third Heaven and he didn't know was I
in my body or not? Okay, Well, he just raised
the possibility that he was not in his body, and
that would be an out of body experience. And so

(30:23):
that's what those are called today in parapsychological cirvice. Look,
they're called out of body experiences where you view your
point of view is somewhere outside of your body and
you're looking at stuff. And in recent surveys of out
of body experiencers, they've asked about things like do you
see a silver cord? And the answer overwhelmingly is no.

Speaker 4 (30:46):
It seems to be so I've from what I've heard,
most of the time people are unaware of the state
of their body at all, meaning like sometimes they are
out of body and can see their physical body, but
there's never really a description of like and was also
aware of my new astral body. There's there seems to
be an absence of any descriptive you know about the body.

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Speaker 3 (32:02):
That was the next thing I was going to mention,
which is there's also a dispute among out of body
experiencers about does anything leave your body when you have
an out of body experience or is it just a
shift of viewpoint, which would be like travel and clairvoyance,
and some out of body experiencers say, yeah, I think

(32:25):
something does leave. For example, there is a guy named
Alex Tannis who did research with the American Society for
Psychical Research back in the nineteen eighties, and he did
astral projection or out of body experiences. He could do them,
you know, on demand, when people requested him to, and
so they did a bunch of experiments where they'd like,

(32:47):
have him lay down in one room and they would
then have a target in another room and say, can
you go down the hall to this other room and
tell us what the target it is?

Speaker 1 (33:00):
Okay, this is what they're asking in the chat.

Speaker 3 (33:02):
Here.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
Is there a difference between astro projection and remote viewing,
So please continue.

Speaker 3 (33:06):
I'll get to that. Yeah. So what Alex said was, well,
I'm my soul is obviously not leaving my body because
if it did, I'd be dead. But he thought that
there was something that left his body, which he referred
to as Alex two. So Alex one is laying here
on the bed and Alex two is going down the
hall to view the target. But not all out of

(33:29):
body experiencers agree with that. There is a British gentleman
named Graham Nichols who is an out of body experiencer.
He can also do it, you know, on command. I
mean he has to get ready for it, but he
can do it on command. And he says, no, nothing
leaves my body. This is This is traveling clairvoyance, where
I'm shifting my point of view to look at something
in the distance. And it's related but not necessarily the

(33:54):
same thing as remote viewing. Most remote viewers do not
have out of body experience. They instead, you will sit
at a desk with a pad of paper in front
of them and just try to pick up impressions about
a distant target. And so they don't have their viewpoint,

(34:17):
and often they don't even get a general look at
the target. They just get little details like, oh, it's
smooth and it's metal, and it's pointed, and it's got tourists.
Oh it's the Eiffel Tower. But it's not like they
get an image of the Eiffel Tower and they can
zoom around it and stuff. On the other hand, because

(34:40):
there is a similarity between these two kinds of experiences,
it could be that they exist on a spectrum and
that remote viewing is at kind of one end of
the spectrum, and then full out of body experiences are
at the more immersive end of the spectrum. But all
of this is still current debated, and there are studies

(35:04):
underway to try to figure out how all this works.

Speaker 4 (35:07):
What are your So we mentioned Helena Bovatsky for a
moment there, and in my limited peripheral understanding of her,
she was a Satanist maybe to put it in No, no,
that's not an accurate description.

Speaker 3 (35:18):
No, she hybridized. She hybridized Christian thought with Hindu thought
and Buddhist thought and some other stuff that she made
up herself. She claimed that she was in communication with
living people who lived in who lived in like to

(35:40):
bed and places like that, who she called the ascended masters,
and they were her supposed source of information. But she
didn't worship the devil. Now there are actual Satanists who
do that, but she didn't happen to be one of them.

Speaker 4 (35:55):
So when when you hear that, write this ascended masters notion,
this description of astral projection, the presence of a silver cord,
you know, your astral body. Do you think that there's
any room for that? In your opinion? Was if this
is a separate thing, because in testimony people don't necessarily

(36:19):
describe the presence of a silver cord. Do you think
that Blovotsky was wrong in her assumptions or her descriptions,
or do you think that these are two separate things
and there may well be something, some sort of function
that one could undertake that would fit more accurately the
description of what Blovotsky was talking about.

Speaker 3 (36:40):
Well, there are out of body experiences and they're not
dependent on Helen on Helena Blovotsky and her theosophical society.
I mean, they would try to tell you here's how
you can have one, maybe, but they've been reported all
the way through history. There's another example from the Old
Testament where it sounds like either remote viewing or out

(37:01):
of body. But there's a particular instance, you know, where
Naemon the leper comes to the prophet Elisha and wants
to get healed of his leprosy, and he thinks, I'm
gonna have to do something really amazing, and Elisha just
tells him go down and go down to the river
and bathe in the Jordans seven times, and he kind
of scoffs at that, but eventually he does it. And

(37:21):
he gets cured and he comes back and says, thank
you so much, let me reward you, and Elisha says, nope,
I don't won't take a reward, and Naemon says, okay, well,
then let me take some earth, you know, some dirt
back home so I can build an altar to Yahweh
on it and I'll worship Yahweh from now on, and

(37:42):
Elisa says, sure, that's great. So he gets the earth,
loads it on his donkey's heads out. Well. Then Elisha's
servant starts thinking, my master wouldn't take anything from him,
but he was willing to give something. I bet I
could get something out of him, and so he follows

(38:03):
Nayeman and he meets with them and he says, hey,
my master just had two visitors come. Could we get
a couple of nice robes from you and some other
nice stuff that we can give them? And Naman is like, oh,
by all means here you go, please, I'm happy to

(38:24):
do this, and so the servant takes all this back
and when he gets back, Elisha's saying, so, what did
you do today? And it's like, oh, I didn't do
anything today, did not? And then what Elisha says is,
did not my heart go with you to meet with
this guy where you got the robes and the stuff. Okay,

(38:46):
this is sounding like an out of body experience. If
his heart went with you but his body didn't go
with him, this is sounding like an out of body experience.
So and they are similar reorts all the way down
through history, including in the Christian community. So I would say, however,
you explain these phenomena. What happened was Helena Blovatski came

(39:11):
up with her own ideas about them and then talked
about them in terms of her ideas, and that influenced
the discussion for a while because she helped popularize them.
But then these days, at least in parapsychology, they've tried
to scrape off all the Helena Blavatski stuff and say,

(39:32):
let's take this material out of it and just look
at it from a scientific perspective and try to describe
it as neutrally as possible without presumptions about silver cords
and astral bodies and stuff, and see what we find.
And when they did that, they found no evidence basically
for a silver cord, and mixed evidence for whether something

(39:53):
leaves you but there have been thinkers in Christian history
who have proposed that in addition to our body and
our spirit, there might be some kind of in between
thing that we have that could could potentially be sent out.
But that's theological speculation. You find some thinkers, for example,
in the Middle Ages talking about that.

Speaker 4 (40:16):
It seems that you find quite a bit of that
as well in testimony of alien abduction. That some of
it at least doesn't seem to actually happen in a
physical sense, but all of the emotion and the experience
of being removed from your home by these shadowy entities

(40:37):
is there. But you know, if you look around the room,
if you have a camera, let's say, set up, it's
evident that you never actually went anywhere. You know, when
you're talking about all these things, these are things that
a lot of the medical industry would dismiss as hallucinations,

(40:58):
including the near death experiences. But the problem with that
is that, just as you've described here, over hundreds, if
not thousands of cases, there are discernible patterns which kind
of betrays the idea that these would be hallucinations. Doctor Marzinski,
who we talked about earlier, would say that drink yeah,

(41:20):
every time we mentioned we can help, but mention the
guy all the time, but he would say that hallucinations
by definition don adhere to patterns, and so once you
have a series of patterns, especially in the way that
you've been describing, it seems pretty obvious that there's something
else going on here. For the longest time, these things
were kind of dismissed by the medical and scientific community

(41:46):
as a pseudoscience. There's always been a paranormal study that
is the underbelly of these aforementioned industries, right, the scientific
one and the medical industry, but for the longest time
they've been.

Speaker 2 (42:02):
Ridiculed.

Speaker 4 (42:03):
We just had recently, what's this guy's name, top Tucker Carlson.

Speaker 2 (42:08):
Tucker Carlson.

Speaker 4 (42:10):
He's making the rounds, and he said something pretty interesting,
and it's that the West in the West, I'm paraphrasing,
we've been we've lost our understanding of spirituality and more
than likely by design. It's just funny because where we
sit right now, and I don't know if you feel
this way, Jimmy, but the state of things suggests that.

Speaker 2 (42:34):
We need to understand.

Speaker 4 (42:38):
We've got a lot of catching up to do, because
it seems imperative based off of just world events, and
especially in the West, the State of America, that we
familiarize ourselves with the spiritual realm, because it seems pretty
obvious that there is one and that we're constantly engaging
with it, unbeknownst to the average person who's just going
through the nine to five grind. You know, whatever, you're doing,

(43:01):
public transportation, you come home, you live your life on repeat.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
But in a million this.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
Is my wife cooking dinner.

Speaker 4 (43:06):
We don't know, it could be her evil twins, but
we seem to be interacting with it without even knowing it.

Speaker 2 (43:13):
Do you think that's fair to say? Oh?

Speaker 3 (43:15):
Yeah, I think there is a spiritual world and we
are interacting with it, and most much of the time
unaware of the fact. So one of the things, let
me see if I can remember this, because I had
a thought, well, well you were well, you were speaking. Oh,
I know what it was. It was about hallucinations. So

(43:38):
I've actually been reading a good bit about hallucinations recently.
For example, Oliver Sachs, the neurologist, has a whole book
about them, and it's really fascinating. One of the things
that I think we have to be open to is
that there could be hallucinations that have common patterns. Now,

(44:01):
most hallucinations seem to be quite random, but and I
know your other guests talked about that. But in principle,
if let's say a there's a particular kind of hallucination
that's based on a certain kind of bodily malfunction, it
could generate similar experiences. So, for example, one of the

(44:27):
commonly reported phenomena in near death experiences, you often hear
about going through a dark tunnel. Well, it's not always
a dark tunnel. Sometimes it's just a sense of motion
towards a light, and in some cultures reportedly it's not
even it's not even moving through darkness. It's like crossing

(44:47):
a bridge to a beautiful park or something. But however,
in all these different situations, though, it seems that there's
some kind of transitional movement or experience of transition movement
that frequently is through darkness to some kind of light
or lighter realm. Now, there has been a proposal, and

(45:10):
I believe this was proposed by uh the British researcher
Susan Blackmore, that what what's responsible for this is the
dying of the visual cortex, and that the visual cortex
goes offline in such a way that you that your
field of vision kind of narrows and you perceive light

(45:33):
in the distance, and it's kind of like you're moving
towards this light, and it's really our visual cortex dying people.
So tests m h, yeah, something like that. Yeah, And
so okay, I think we got to entertain that possibility. Now,
what that's not going to do is explain Maria's shoe

(45:56):
or other aspects of the experience where someone comes back
with vertical information. So even though I'd say it's hypothetically
possible that there could be hallucinations that people experience that
are based on, say a physiological process that's shutting down

(46:16):
or working wrong, I don't want to dismiss that. But
I also want to acknowledge that most hallucinations that people
have tend to be very random. They're like dreams and
deathbed visions, near death experiences, and after death communications are
not like dreams, although after death communications sometimes occur in dreams.

(46:39):
But there's enough here that you can't even if Susan
Blackmore was right about the visual cortex being responsible for
this aspect, and she's just speculating. There's no proof that
that's what's happening. It's just her guessing. But even if
that guess turned out to be correct, there's other stuff

(47:00):
happening in these experiences that that will not explain, and
that does not have any normal explanation. That has to
be paranormal. If someone's coming back with knowledge that's that
specific that they couldn't that they had no natural way
of knowing, and that's something that you find in the
other experiences as well. It's not just near death experiences.

(47:22):
You get vertical information like that in both deathbed visions
and in after death communications. Let me give you an
example of one of the types of information that people
sometimes get in deathbed visions. They also get this in indes,
but it appeared first in the literature and the study

(47:43):
of deathbed visions. It's what's known as a peak in
Darien experience. Now that's peak like a mountain peak, and
Darien is a province in Panama, and there's an old
poem about climbing a peak in province Panama, and when
you get to the top of the peak, you suddenly,

(48:04):
unexpectedly see the Pacific Ocean on the other side of
the peak you know, which are like explorers would have
this kind of experience when they were first exploring Panama,
and so in parapsychology, the term peak in Darien has
become associated with a type of experience where you see

(48:24):
something totally unexpected and the thing that you see is
someone you didn't know was dead. So, in death in
hallucinations that people have, they will hallucinate anybody. They'll hallucinate
people they don't know, they'll hallucinate people they do know

(48:47):
who are still alive. They'll hallucinate all kinds of people. Well,
in deathbed visions, they don't hallucinate people who are still alive,
and they don't hallucinate random strangers. They specifically see departed
loved ones who were here to welcome them into the
afterlife and to help them cross over. But sometimes one

(49:11):
of their departed loved ones is someone they didn't know
was dead. So, for example, one early this one was
documented quite early in the late eighteen hundreds, there was
a British family where you had a woman who's dying
and she's surrounded by most of her siblings, but some
of her siblings are dead, and so as she's having

(49:32):
her deathbed vision. She says, oh, here's my first sibling,
who everybody knew was dead. And here's my second sibling,
who everyone knew was dead. And here's my third sibling,
who everyone knew was dead because people died a lot
back then. But then she says, oh, and here's my
brother who who he's in the afterlife too welcome in me.

(49:54):
And everyone thinks her brother is over in India and
is just fine. And the idea that their other fourth
sibling is dead he's there in the afterlife was so
disturbing to one of the women, one of the other
sisters who was present, she just couldn't handle it. She

(50:15):
rushed out of the room. Well, then they get a
letter saying, we got to inform you your brother in
India died, and he died at a date that turned
out to be before this woman had her deathbed vision.
So she had a peak in Dairyan experience where she
discerned that her brother was in the afterlife, even though

(50:39):
nobody there knew that. Another early when this is from
around nineteen twenty three, you have another woman. She's in
a maternity hospital and she's got a heart condition, and
because of her heart condition, she has been on bed
rest for a long time, and she has given birth,

(51:05):
and then after the birth, she's getting ready to die
because the strain of the birth was too much for
her heart, and so she's getting ready to die, and
she's having a deathbed vision and she's talking about how
beautiful everything is that she's seeing and hearing. People see light,
they see a beautiful realm, they hear beautiful music. And
she says, oh, and here's my father come to welcome

(51:26):
me into the next world. And here's my sister Vida.
And she had not known that her sister Vida was dead,
and she had no way of knowing that her sister
Vida was dead because Vida had died three weeks earlier.
And when the family learned about Vida's death, they talked

(51:49):
to the hospital staff and said, do you think she
can take this news? And the major to the hospital said, no,
do not tell her about Vida's death. Her condition is
too fragile. We've got to get her through this eth
and so they didn't tell her. And her husband even
screened her mail, you know, every loo because back then
they didn't have text you know, texting. They wrote letters,

(52:11):
and so he every letter that comes in from her
from a friend. Before she gets to read it, her
husband reads it to make sure nobody mentions Vida's death,
so she had no way of knowing that Vida had died.
And then she sees her in the afterlife in her
deathbed vision, welcoming her into the afterlife with her departed father.

(52:33):
And so this would be another example of a peak
in Darien experience that counts as vertical information that would
support the idea that this is a real experience. It's
not just a hallucination due to the breakdown of you know,
the mind or anything like that. This is something more

(52:54):
than that.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
It seems like a maybe the similarities here would be
the chemicals that are released in the brain upon death
or upon a strenuous situation that would let you kind
of pull back this veil because you'll see, you know,
you'll see you'll hear about experiences like this when people
do psychedelics or d MT and things like that. I

(53:18):
know that there's similar chemicals that are released in the
brain naturally, like specific specifically d MT, And it seems
like people are able to just kind of take a
peek behind the curtain there right right when they do
these certain things, whether it's intentional or not. Has your
head you studies led you anywhere?

Speaker 3 (53:33):
There there's a definite association between. Now, so we kind
of got two things going on here. These are death
connected phenomena, but whether but in both death related phenomena
and non death related phenomena, there is an association between
gaining paranormal information that's esp and an altered state of consciousness.

(54:01):
There was a researcher in the mid twentieth century named
Lewisa Rhin, and she collected case reports of people who
had paranormal experiences and she classified them, and so she
did statistical studies of them. And one of the things
she found is that when precognitive experiences occur, like raving

(54:24):
your experience about your uncle, sixty percent of the time
it's in the form of a realistic dream. Now, yours
was not realistic. Yours was a symbolic dream if it
was referring to your uncle's death. But sixty percent of
the time when people have precognitive experiences, it's in the
form of a realistic dream. And dreams, of course, are

(54:45):
an altered state of consciousness. We're not in normal alert wakefulness.
When we're having a dream. There are other altered states
of consciousness too, including things just like relaxation and letting
your mind wander, you know, it's to be in a
alert and there is an association in that modern parapsychologists

(55:06):
have found between certain altered states of consciousness and expanded
awareness of things. Now, it's not all altered states of consciousness,
like if you if you hyper caffeinate yourself so you're augitary,
Actually that's not going to help you be psychic. But

(55:29):
there are various states like relaxation and so forth that
that can in terms of uh, in terms of specifically
death related experiences, people do, you know, as they're getting
ready to die, there they do enter altered states. And

(55:51):
this is something that's been commented on for a long
time in the history of Christian thought. Saint Augustine who
lived back around the year four hundred, he has a
whole discussion in actually it's in the twelfth book I
think of his literal commentary on Genesis, where he talks

(56:11):
about how when the mind is quiet and when it
starts to partially disengage from worldly affairs and things like that,
that people can or are reported to have expanded awareness
of things, and so they may predict the future or something.
Pope Saint Gregory the Great, who lived about the year

(56:33):
six hundred, he has a discussion where he also talks
about it's like when your mind is starting to disengage
from your body, you can have greater awareness and can
learn about the future. In fact, Pope Saint Gregory the
Great says that there are two ways that this has
happened that people can learn about the future. Precognitively, we're

(56:55):
not talking about God giving you the information. That's divine revelation,
and what s St. Gregory the Great is talking about
is a little different. He says, some people seem to
have a subtle quality to their soul that allows them
to learn at least a little bit about the future.

(57:16):
But other people, when they're getting ready to die and
their soul is starting to detach from the body, they
may have visions He's talking about deathbed visions, and they
may learn something that's going to happen in the future.
So there is a definite association between paranormal acquisition of

(57:37):
information and altered states of consciousness. You mentioned DMT in particular,
and actually in the mid twentieth century there were parapsychologists
who would test things like LSD and magic mushrooms and
stuff like that to see can we make someone psychic.
They didn't get great results. One of the problems is

(58:00):
that if you get somebody high, they may stop caring
about your experiment. They may stop complying with instructions. They're
just what pretty colors, you know, they're they're off target
because they're just enjoying being high. Also, even if it
even if this altered state is letting them access something,

(58:22):
it's also letting in a lot of noise, and it
can be hard to discern the signal from the noise.
And so psychedelic experiments to enhance psychic functioning and so forth,
they really didn't lead to anything because because of those
two issues too chaotic.

Speaker 1 (58:39):
Yeah, yeah, I can see how that's possible. How about
au How about them fasting? Because it seems like fasting
is also a tool that's been used biblically and throughout
time to kind of do what you're talking about.

Speaker 3 (58:51):
Yeah, so fast and does it can affect consciousness? Actually,
I do fast in myself. I do intermittent fast and
I only have a two While we were eating window
every day, But I've never had visions like that, but
I do know that fasten is at least associated with
having visions in some contexts. For example, there's an early

(59:15):
Christian writing called The Ascension of Isaiah. It was written
apparently in the year AD sixty seven, and the way
we know that is it mentions the death of Peter,
which happened in eight sixty five or sixty six, but
it does not mention the death of Nero. He committed
suicide in sixty eight, So this appears to have been

(59:37):
written between the death of Peter and the suicide of Nero.
That would make it sixty seven. And it's set eight
hundred years earlier, during the lifetime of the prophet Isaiah,
so it's not really written by Isaiah. It's really a
Christian document, but it's set in Isaiah's time. And one
of the things that the figure of Isaiah does in

(59:57):
the book to prepare for visions is fast. Now, it
could be that if you fast long enough and strictly enough,
that that's going to help with the detachment that you
need from ordinary worldly life to have an expanded awareness
of things. It also, though, could be a sign of

(01:00:21):
religious devotion that you're denying yourself in order to make
a stronger connection with God and ask God to give
you a vision. So it could to the extent fast
and gets associated with things like visions or precognition or whatever.
It could be because of a natural effect, or it
could be because of a spiritual effect where you're doing

(01:00:44):
an act of devotion to reach out to God and
then God chooses to reward that by giving you a vision.

Speaker 4 (01:00:52):
I want to kind of take this in a bit
of a strange direction, and this might not yield any
fruit every telling it.

Speaker 3 (01:01:00):
I can't help it.

Speaker 4 (01:01:02):
So there's actually something that that is concerning that I've heard,
and I hope that it's not true. But when it
comes to these sort of like New Age teachings and
things of that nature, oftentimes there's a lot of how
would you put it detail to these things, and so

(01:01:22):
one suspects that the idea at least came from somewhere,
and this is kind of a twofold thing. So the
first one is that there's this concept that when you
die and you're entering this this light that you know,
many people do describe that this is actually an attempt
by something called the archons, if I'm not mistaken to

(01:01:44):
trap you in this karmic loop of of rebirth, that
that there's this cycle that we're trapped in. And one
of the things that makes that a little compelling is
that you do come across these, uh, in some cases,
rather shocking descriptions, sometimes even by children of their past lives,

(01:02:08):
which is something that as I'm as I'm looking at
the world through a Christian lens, through a biblical lens,
becomes a little bit difficult to uh to define. And
so I take that this. You know, anecdotally, you'll have
a child who goes on for an extended period of
time at a shockingly young age about a family that

(01:02:31):
existed before.

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
And let's say one that I'm aware of a.

Speaker 4 (01:02:36):
Descriptive of of dying in the ocean but having a
dog sister James right, And I don't know necessarily that
that one is.

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
It just sticks out to me.

Speaker 4 (01:02:47):
But there's there's a lot, you know, arguably what is
a lot, but there are more that go along with
that one. And then you know, lo and behold, they
end up investigating because it's such a a constant in
the child's life that they feel they need to kind
of put it to rest. And so they find through
one means or another that, well, there actually was a
family that lived in this location, that did have a

(01:03:10):
little boy that did perish, you know, in the water,
that did have this sister, that dog, and then you know,
you kind of hear those things and you go, wow,
I don't know what to do with that. I find
it fascinating, but it's you, you know, unless you're a
parapsychology investigator, if you're just an average person, you hit

(01:03:33):
a wall as far as the investigation goes, and there's
nothing else to do there. And so, like I said,
I just got to put those things in my back pocket.
I wonder if in your studies you've come across that
or what you make of it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:43):
Well, so that is part of survival research. And I've
done a lot of survival research, included on what are
called cases of the reincarnation type. So the word type
there is importance. We're not saying this is reincarnation, but
it's jestive of reincarnation, and so cases of the reincarnation

(01:04:04):
type co RT or COURT is something I've actually looked
at a lot. I've read numerous books on the subject.
I did a two part look at him on Jimmy
Aikin's Mysterious World, where in part one I survey what
current reincarnation research has come up with, and then in
part two I look at potential explanations for it. I'll

(01:04:25):
give you a brief answer now about the arcons and
stuff strictly from the faith perspective. But if you'd like
to talk about this more, why don't you'll have me
on again and we can talk reincarnation because it's a
whole other, big subject.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
I have your YouTube page pulled up here and one
of the first thing is like, was Bigfoot on Noah's Ark?
And I'm like, I want to talk about this too, man, but.

Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
We're going to be dragging you back on. We're going
to be dragging you back on.

Speaker 3 (01:04:51):
And the case of big was Bigfoot on Noah's Ark?
That was a question someone posed to me. And I
don't have a huge amount to say about that, but
if that's a fun question, but it's a fun question. Yeah,
in terms of the scenario you sketch now, I'm going
to have to I think from two perspectives, the reason perspective,
which is what would science tell us about this? And

(01:05:13):
the faith perspective, and so I'm going to skip over
the reason perspective now and we can talk about that
in the future, but from the faith perspective. So Hebrews
tells us that, well, okay, the consistent message of the
New Testament is what happened to Jesus is going to
happen to us. He did not reincarnate, he was resurrected.

(01:05:35):
That's what's going to happen to us. We're going to
resurrect He's the first fruits of the resurrection. We're the
harvest of the resurrection. And that's been the belief of
Christians consistently down through history. There's never been a major
deviation on that. The only people who have talked about
reincarnation were like Gnostic heretics, and they're really a separate religion.

(01:05:56):
They're not really Christian. They just have some Christian elements,
kind of like Islam is a separate religion, but it's
got some Christian elements in it. Okay, so that's the
basic message of Christianity. But could now the arkans that
you mentioned, that's a concept from Gnosticism. The Gnostics believed

(01:06:20):
that there were these various spiritual emanations from an unknowable
ultimate God that ruled things in creation, and they're called
the arkans. So I would say, from a Christian faith perspective,
what evidence do we have that there even are any arkans?
You know, they're not in the Bible, they're not in

(01:06:41):
the orthodox tradition of the Church Fathers. This is this
is really a concept that's being imported from another religion.
So even supposing though, I mean, maybe it's not arcons,
Maybe maybe it's demons, you know, could demons be trying
to trap us in reincarnation? Well, the Book of Hebrews

(01:07:04):
in chapter ten says it is appointed for man once
to die, and then comes the judgment and so and
he's clearly responding to like Greco Roman beliefs in reincarnation,
you know, because there were people in the ancient Greco
Roman world who did believe in reincarnation. And he's saying,
that's not the way it is. It is appointed for

(01:07:25):
man wants to die and then comes the judgment. So
that's the rule. That's that's that's the principle. Now going
out on a limb, well, can there be exceptions to
the rule. Well, okay, let's look at that wants to
die part. Did anybody ever not die? Well, Enoch and

(01:07:48):
Elijah didn't die. A few people, yeah, so a few people.
Did anyone die more than once? Well maybe Lazarus and
the widow of Nane's son and Jayrus's daughter and people,
but like that. So yeah, it looks like there's a
few exceptions to the first part of the rule. And
if there are a few exceptions to the first part
of the rule, hypothetically there could maybe be others. But

(01:08:16):
if so, and even that's wildly speculative, they got to
be a tiny minority. The rule is that that that
that it is pointed for man wants to die and
then comes the judgment no reincarnation. Now, speaking from a

(01:08:36):
faith perspective, so I would look at the proposal that
there are arcans or demons or whatever who are trying
to trap us into a cycle of reincarnation very skeptically.
As a result, I that's something, Frankly, I wouldn't be
worried about. I I, you know, I don't. The state

(01:09:00):
of your soul is when you die, you're either in
God's friendship or you're not. If you're not in God's friendship,
a demon is not going to try to get you
to go back so you can have another chance. And
if you're in God's friendship, then God's going to protect you.
You know Jesus talks about in his parable of Lazarus
and the Rich Man. He talks about when Lazarus, who's

(01:09:22):
in one of God's friends, when he dies, the angels
come and escort him to Abraham's bosom.

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Speaker 3 (01:10:14):
And that parallels what we see in deathbed visions and
near death experiences where people say, oh, yeah, angels or
departed loved ones. You know, they came, they had the
allest piece and they led me or were leading me
into the good place in the afterlife. And so so
I would look at the arkon theory very skeptically from

(01:10:37):
the faith perspective. I also from the reason perspective, I
would say, what evidence do we have that this is
what's happening as opposed to just a story that someone
has come up with, And if someone has evidence for it,
I'd be happy to consider it. From the reason perspective,
I just have not seen evidence for it. It sounds

(01:10:57):
like speculation to me.

Speaker 4 (01:10:59):
But if to happen, you would consider it maybe an
avaristion of that minority that you talked about earlier. So like,
let's say hypothetically it was proven that this young boy
did have this experience or any of these number of
people who have this testimony to share, then these might
fit into the same category as maybe E.

Speaker 2 (01:11:17):
Lazarith or something of.

Speaker 3 (01:11:18):
That nature hypothetically, but I don't know that we need
to go even that far, because there are other explanations
for why one person can have another person's memories. Besides,
I used to be that person. There are and just
to preview a little bit what we can talk about
in the future, I classify the different theories about what

(01:11:42):
could explain cases of the reincarnation type into three groups.
There what are called their soul theories, residue theories, and
psychic theories. And soul theories are like what you find
in Hinduism. In Hinduism, they believe that you have a soul,
they call it an atman, and your atman or soul

(01:12:05):
passes from one body to another over a course of
different lives. So that's the Hindu view, and it's only
in that view that what we think of as reincarnation occurs.
Then there are residue theories where something less than a
full person makes the jump from one life to another,

(01:12:26):
and this is what you have in classical Buddhism. Buddhism
has a doctrine they call anatman. It means no atman.
There is no stable soul that a person has that
could move from one life to another. So in Buddhism,
classically they compare reincarnation to one candle light in another candle.

(01:12:47):
As one candles burning out, it can transmit something to
another candle that causes it to glow, to start glowing,
but they're two separate candles.

Speaker 4 (01:12:58):
It sounds like Buddhism head had a handle on like
the NPC theory before kind of the West came up
with that idea, right, or at least modern modern day culture.

Speaker 2 (01:13:10):
That's that's fascinating.

Speaker 3 (01:13:11):
Yeah, So the thing about now, there are a variety
of different perspectives within Buddhism, and some of them are
more survivalistic. There they would have something at least more
like a soul theory. But classically Buddhism would say it's
like one candle light in another. So there's something that
passes between people that would include these memories, but it's

(01:13:31):
not a full person. Hey, Jimmy on this kind of
residue on.

Speaker 1 (01:13:35):
That As David is talking about the MPC theory, it's
something that I floated out there as like a joke
just on Twitter, kind of you know, having fun.

Speaker 3 (01:13:43):
But there's NPC's around, non player characters around us.

Speaker 1 (01:13:47):
Not just some, But I mean when you're walking around
in like Walmart and you're like, these people have soul?
Like are these people? Do they have that spark in them?
And I know it's kind of like demeaning what God
can create, but I'm like, this's a lot of damn
people around us. How many of them are actually like
functioning awake?

Speaker 3 (01:14:05):
Have that?

Speaker 1 (01:14:06):
It's a great analogy, that little spark that's been passed
on from one thing to the next. Are there a
finite amount.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
Of souls in this use?

Speaker 4 (01:14:14):
It's not necessarily that maybe you can almost incapacitate the
function of someone's soul by giving them so much, right, Yeah,
you put them on drugs, you give them a million
and a half different things to pay attention to, stimulation, stimulation, shows,
your phone, things of that nature. Can you effectively kind
of make all the forman Yeah, dull the flame.

Speaker 2 (01:14:35):
Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

Speaker 3 (01:14:38):
Interesting idea. It aspects of that touch on what's actually
a debate in philosophy. That's what my academic training is
in is in philosophy, and there's a debate over what
are called philosophical zombies. The idea of a philosophical zombie
is it. It looks like a person, it behaves like

(01:14:59):
a person, an exactly like a person, but it has
no consciousness.

Speaker 2 (01:15:03):
Just has a glazed look over its eyes.

Speaker 3 (01:15:05):
No, it doesn't have a glazed look. It responds exactly
the way you expect a person to respond. It is
just there's nothing, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:15:12):
It's funny that all this precognition stuff. So with the
near death experiences, you've got Stephen King books like The
Shining and Doctor Sleep, where this guy's he's he knows
something because he's writing directly about a lot of these
features of life. And uh, with this sort of thing.
Oh man, I just lost my thought.

Speaker 2 (01:15:32):
We were saying the NPCs and the the film zombies.

Speaker 1 (01:15:36):
Yes, so the philosophical zombies. There was like maybe ten
years ago, very popular movement throughout the culture with zombies.

Speaker 2 (01:15:42):
You couldn't get.

Speaker 1 (01:15:43):
Enough of zombies, zombie walks. And then it just goes away, right,
they have World War z walking down. All this stuff
took over the culture and then gone. But it kind
of puts it in the zeitguy. So everyone's thinking about
this idea of a zombie. Is it a is it
a lab created thing? Or is this actually happening.

Speaker 3 (01:15:59):
I have a two part look at zombies on Mysterious
World and I'm here to tell you zombies are real.

Speaker 1 (01:16:07):
My new favorite podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:16:11):
It was amazing, All right, are why are they? This
is incredible?

Speaker 3 (01:16:13):
Let's go No, okay, so well, first of all, let
me touch Let me touch on that third theory that
could explain cases of reincarnation type psychic theories. If psychic
functioning exists, then all you need is a link between
a person in the present and a person in the past,
and all the memories could travel through that link. So

(01:16:34):
there are multiple other and I think there are reasons
to propose that as a theory, but that's the third theory.
So notice only on that first theory, the soul theory,
would actual reincarnation occur. On the residue theory, some kind
of residue might pass from one person to another, but
it's not an actual soul. And on the psychic link theory,

(01:16:56):
information passes between one person and another, but that's it.

Speaker 4 (01:17:00):
On the residue theory, that's fascinating because I wonder if
if that fragment of a person or a fragment of
a soul could pass down multiple times. But if there
was a historical figure, let's say, because you get a
lot of people there like I'm the I have the
memories of you know name, you know, historical figure, and
it's like, well, maybe you're not, but Resid does.

Speaker 2 (01:17:23):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:17:24):
One of the things I wanted to touch on too
before we go back into the zombies, we brought up
so he brought up the Arkans and you're like, well,
there's no really like biblical precedent or historical precedent for
the Arcons that comes from a different re leigiond the
gods that that Hindus observe and worship in some cases
they are also not biblical.

Speaker 3 (01:17:43):
But they are there.

Speaker 1 (01:17:44):
And then if we want to think about the Atlanians
or the Greek pantheon are what we've been thinking and
hypothesizing on the show is that a lot of these
entities are they overlap, they're kind of the same thing
renamed slightly different. And then you know, you'll read the
Book of Enoch, and in the Book of Enoch, there's
a lot of good information, but it's not in the

(01:18:05):
Bible for a reason because it was It's not it's
not written by God inspired by God. It's written by
fallen angels, inspired by fallen angels in a way, So
you're getting information, Yes, it's yeah, it's it's the it's.

Speaker 3 (01:18:17):
The historical How do you how do you? Well? Okay,
I mean it obviously talks about fallen angels, yes, in yeah,
well okay. So the modern scholarly view is that it
was it's actually about six different books that got stitched together,
and they were all written between two hundred three hundred BC,

(01:18:38):
and a d seventy was, you know, the latest possible
for one of the books, and and so none of
them were actually written by Enoch. But there are people
who think it is in the Bible. If you're in
the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, they've got it in their Bible.

(01:19:01):
Other Christians don't, But the Ethiopian Orthodox do have it
in their Bible.

Speaker 1 (01:19:06):
And I say that it seems like a lot of
angel worship when you read this book. It seems like
they're glorifying the abilities of these angels. And it just
doesn't sit right with me. So I'm weary when I
read it as to what information is true and what
is not.

Speaker 3 (01:19:20):
Well, I think that's good. I think we should not
And I've got a two Parter coming up on the
Book of Enich. I think we need to be careful
about reading it and how we process different pieces of
information in it. But I'd hesitate to just say the
book was written by fallen angels because Jude quotes it.

(01:19:42):
He says, as Enoch the seventh from Adam prophesied, and
then he's got a quotation. So that's a positive endorsement
of this book. It may not make it biblical in
the positive statement in the Book of Jude in the book.

Speaker 1 (01:19:57):
What I mean is what I mean is when you
read the book, it just seems like there's there's testimony
from like Enoch is telling you what he's being told
from one side, then he goes to God and then
he's saying this, so it's like part of the like
not all of this is coming from God. And also
who's really writing this. I'm just not quite sure where
to put it, so I don't I don't put it anywhere.

(01:20:17):
I just kind of leave it on the shelf and
I refer to it here and there when it when
it might suit me.

Speaker 3 (01:20:22):
Okay, yeah, I don't know that I see the angel
worship in it that you do. But but i'd have to,
I'd have to review it.

Speaker 4 (01:20:31):
This idea that like in the beginning of the Book
of Enoch, it says that this book was meant for
the tribulation generation. And then I believe the Book of
Enoch was found, uh with the Dead Sea scrolls and
like the forties maybe something like that. Uh do you
do you look at that and entertain the idea that
we might be in the tribulation generation.

Speaker 2 (01:20:53):
I don't think the book was meant to be found.

Speaker 3 (01:20:56):
I don't think that Enoch provides I don't think that
Enich provides us with evidence for that, because Enich, we've
had it for the last two thousand years and it
is in the Ethiopian tradition. Yeah, and its greatest period
of popularity was around the time of Jesus so and

(01:21:21):
and if you think about how a lot of Jewish
people looked at the world, then they thought they were
in the end times. You know, we've got the Romans.
There's going to be this great war between the sons
of Light and the sons of darkness, and the Messiah
is going to come in and he's going to kick
butt and then we'll have this wonderful new world in
the Messianic age because they had a political understanding of

(01:21:42):
what the Messiah was going to be and do rather
than a spiritual understanding of the Messiah. So I think
the natural way to read, you know, like this is
for the last generation type stuff is in is in
those terms, Okay. So I don't think we could use
its modern because even today, the vast majority of people

(01:22:04):
have never heard of the Book of Emic, even in
Christian circles. It's it's really a niche thing. So I
don't think we could look at its little flower and
of popularity right now as a sign that we're in
the end.

Speaker 1 (01:22:17):
What are your thoughts on What are your thoughts on
the little season? Have you heard about this?

Speaker 3 (01:22:22):
I've heard of it, but why don't you explain your
understanding of it to me?

Speaker 1 (01:22:27):
David take it away?

Speaker 4 (01:22:28):
So we spoke to I think it was a Paul
of understanding conspiracy and JT follows j C. Both of
them excellent content creators doing very much the same thing,
probably to a higher degree than what we do looking
at the world through.

Speaker 2 (01:22:41):
The biblical lens.

Speaker 4 (01:22:42):
But one of the things that they suggested was that
the millennial Kingdom has already happened and what we are
currently in is the oh Okay Satan's Small season, and
they gave some pretty compelling, interesting, you know, supportive pieces
to help kind of paint that idea, and one of
them was that this erection recently of Tartaria. I'm sure

(01:23:04):
you're familiar with it to some degree, right, Tartaria is
like this. It kind of took the conspiracy realm by storm,
maybe over the past like four to five years, and
it's this remnants of ancient architecture that was mostly covered
up by a mud flood. And long story short, people
are suggesting that a great deal of our history has

(01:23:26):
been erased and there was a sprawling empire called Tartaria
that started off in like Eastern Asia, I believe, and
ended up all the way to the Americas. But that
what they're suggesting, No, I don't think it's something that
they would say definitively they hold to be true. But
what they're suggesting is that Tartaria is actually remnants of

(01:23:48):
Christ's millennial kingdom. And there was a lot of other
things to go along with that. But one of the
things that also paired with it was this idea that
if you look around through to a kind of conspiratorial lens.
You might see things that suggest that the elites, as
they were, are manufacturing End times prophecy in one way

(01:24:10):
or another. They're showing you this one thing and it
suddenly looks like end Times prophecy is coming true. Another
thing happens on the world stage. And I'm not saying anecdotally,
Like we just mentioned a moment ago about how all
people throughout history thought they were in the End Times.

Speaker 2 (01:24:24):
It's like, you know, you have the red heifer situation.

Speaker 4 (01:24:27):
Well, the ways in which they manufacture that is there's
actually a ranch out in Texas that is trying to
genetically modify the perfect red heifer. And you know, there's
a bunch of different, once again anecdotal ways that you
could suggest that they're doing this. But if they are
doing this, then it might be. And it's a very
sexy theory.

Speaker 2 (01:24:44):
I like it. I enjoy it very much. Very sexy theory.
I like it. I like A good theory.

Speaker 4 (01:24:49):
Is that they're manufacturing end times prophecy. To Obvius Skate,
where we are in the biblical timeline, and there is
also this notion that's somewhere along our history we gained
I believe it is we gained and or lost one
of the We gained our loss a thousand years and
they had some pretty interesting evidence to back that up
as well. I don't know that I that I did

(01:25:12):
it justice, but uh, but it was. It was a
very cool episode. Are you familiar at all with this idea?
Satan's Small Season? I think is probably more accurately what
it's called.

Speaker 3 (01:25:20):
I'm I'm familiar with aspects of of what you just mentioned,
and I'll give you my impression on those, but I
know we only have a few minutes left, so all
be very brief in terms of the entire scenario that
you just sketched.

Speaker 2 (01:25:36):
It's a big, it's a big, messy scenario.

Speaker 3 (01:25:37):
Yet all that stuff, I think it is not supported
by the evidence. Like we're not missing several centuries. There
are ways to show that through what are known historically,
through what are known as synchronisms, where you can show
this person lived at the same time as that person
and they lived at the same time as this person.
You can with hundreds and thousands of synchronisms, you can

(01:25:59):
you can show there's no missing gap, there's no big gap,
there's no big jump. Haven't said that if we take
away these elements in this lost civilization and things like that,
and say, could the millennium have already happened, and could
we be in the little period where Satan gets unleashed

(01:26:21):
before the Second come in? I would say yeah. The
standard view through most of Christian history that most Christians
have adhered to is called a millennialism, and the idea
in a millennialism is that Christ is reign in right

(01:26:42):
now in heaven and through his church on earth, and
the devil. This is a key thing from Revelation twenty.
And if you ever want me to talk about revelation
and prophetic theories with you, let me know. But it
says in Revelation twenty that during the millennium, which is
symbolic for a long period of time, the devil will
be bound in such a way that he can no
longer deceive the nations. Okay, that's now. Christ is reigning

(01:27:07):
in heaven right now and through his church on earth,
and the devil has been bound in such a way
that we are in a vastly different situation now than
in the first century, where Christians were a telliny little
minority of just a few hundred or thousand people. Today
two billion people, a third of the global population are Christian,

(01:27:28):
and half of the global population worships the God of Abraham.
The devil has been bound in such a way that
he has not been able to stop the proclamation of
the Gospel. So I would say the historic Christian view
that we're living in the millennium right now. That's true,
But then we have to face the question of well,
could it have just ended or could we be right

(01:27:51):
at the end of it. Well, there are certainly disturbing
trends in the world. On the other hand, if you
study history, there have been disturbing trends everywhere. And we
got one thousand soul. Give you two pieces of evidence
that point in opposite directions. One piece of evidence is
that a third of the global population is still Christian.

(01:28:13):
You know, it doesn't sound like we haven't had this
massive fallen away where the Church is persecuted almost to
the point of death. So that would suggest that, you know,
it's still farther in the second comment, is still farther
in the future. On the other and related to that,
the prophecy from Romans nine to eleven of the Jewish
people are going to convert and that doesn't look like

(01:28:35):
that's happened either, So that would suggest it's again in
the future. On the other hand, Israel did just get
its land back, and that I have a hard time
saying that's by accident, and so that's something that could
suggest even if it's still in the future, the Second
Coming still in the future away, it could be closer.

(01:28:55):
I mean, it's always getting closer, but it could be
a bit closer than you might otherwise think. So I'm
agnostic on when the Second Coming is, but those are
some of the parameters that I bring to bear in
considering the question.

Speaker 2 (01:29:10):
And that's it.

Speaker 1 (01:29:11):
You can talk for another hour about just Israel getting
their land back and how it's done in such a way,
and also.

Speaker 2 (01:29:19):
What are Jews?

Speaker 1 (01:29:20):
Who are the Jews a revelation three to nine? I
believe it's like they say that they are. But there
there's a lot going on here and it's all smoking
mirrors at this point. I'm waiting for the dust to settle,
to see a little bit more clearly about what exactly
is going on. But we like to entertain some some
kind of crazy theory sometimes every Friday. I wanted to

(01:29:41):
mention ed Mabrey. We do a series on the Book
of Revelation, and we go chapter by chapter and we
let him break it down for us and tell him
what he thinks. He has some unique views on it.
A very interesting guy. So if I thought we were
in the little season, I wouldn't bother doing that on Friday,
because I think we you know, it's still good to
read this book as if we are in possibly the

(01:30:04):
end time generation and look look for the signs to
come of things.

Speaker 4 (01:30:08):
But especially because it's one of the most contested, not contested,
but like I guess argued over books in the Bible
right where everybody's got a bunch of different theories, so
crazy fascinating every time we talk to him, you know,
and we get to learn a little bit more from
a bunch of different perspectives.

Speaker 2 (01:30:25):
So, you know, I enjoy doing the series.

Speaker 4 (01:30:27):
But I do feel like this this episode, Jimmy, we
barely scratch the surface.

Speaker 2 (01:30:31):
It's very clear. Guys.

Speaker 4 (01:30:33):
For the listeners out there, I highly recommend going and
checking out Jimmy's page because as soon as you scroll
just through the thumbnails alone, I struggle to know which one,
which topic I want to have you back for first because.

Speaker 1 (01:30:47):
Like much this thumb nail here, I'll pull I'll just
pull up your page. But I gotta I gotta step
up my thumbnail thumbnail game. And it's not even like
making it like like doing crazy stuff with this one
right here.

Speaker 2 (01:30:59):
He's wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:31:00):
Just pointed to his faces, like, dude, I'm going to
watch that video right now, Like what.

Speaker 2 (01:31:04):
Jimmy, are you making your own thumbnails?

Speaker 3 (01:31:06):
Jimmy, I am, yes, crushing it, well most most of them.
I'm not making the mysterious world thumbnails, but I'm making
all the others.

Speaker 4 (01:31:13):
Look at that Skinwalker ranch, Bigfoot on the arc are aliens, demons?
I mean you're hitting all the thing spots, all the
interesting things demon in the AI. Oh god, top, that's
my stuff, right, stuff right there. We got to have
you back on, Jimmy.

Speaker 3 (01:31:27):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (01:31:27):
Hopefully this this uh at least at least convince you
to like us a little bit enough to.

Speaker 2 (01:31:33):
Back on the show.

Speaker 3 (01:31:35):
Happy to come back.

Speaker 2 (01:31:36):
Excellent, excellent.

Speaker 4 (01:31:38):
Okay, So I guess then one more time, Jimmy, because
I know we got to wrap it up.

Speaker 2 (01:31:41):
Let everybody know where they can find your work.

Speaker 3 (01:31:44):
Okay. So I work for an organization called Catholic Answers
that's Catholic. Dot com is our website because we thought
ahead back in the night.

Speaker 4 (01:31:51):
Wow, you guys got dot com incredible.

Speaker 3 (01:31:55):
And my personal website is Jimmy Aiken dot com. My
YouTube site is YouTube dot com slash Jimmy Akin. You
can go over there right now, check out some of
these videos. Be sure to like, comment and subscribe, and
uh all you gotta do to get there or to
my personal website Jimmy Akin dot com is spell my

(01:32:17):
name correctly? Why don't you leave that up for a second.
As you can see a can if you scroll up
a can is so easy. It is just like it sounds.

Speaker 2 (01:32:28):
It sounds like you've run into problems. Hey for Jimmy, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:32:31):
A k I in There are no e's, t's, or
s's in my name. So so Jimmy Akin dot com
or YouTube dot com slash Jimmy Akin.

Speaker 1 (01:32:47):
All right, man, Yeah, and uh, I guess you're on
Twitter as well. Go follow him there. Thank you Jimmy
for taking the time and uh just dropping some more
knowledge on us. We have a lot to think about.
We have to go back to the drawing board because
this is what happens some of our some of our
theories are now uh moot, So now we have to
go and let those die and figure out what we're

(01:33:08):
doing here.

Speaker 3 (01:33:09):
Again, that's what happens to all of us.

Speaker 2 (01:33:12):
Yeah, over and over again.

Speaker 4 (01:33:14):
It's a constant shedding of all the stupid things we
thought were true.

Speaker 1 (01:33:17):
Yeah, that's life.

Speaker 3 (01:33:19):
But all right, it's better alternative.

Speaker 4 (01:33:22):
Yeah, you believe in a bunch of stuff and holding
on to it like it's part of your identity.

Speaker 2 (01:33:26):
Uh exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:33:27):
I've learned learned very early to uh like your your
ideas are not you. These are just things that you're
compiling on your journey here, and when you find out
that they don't suit you anymore, I put them down nicely. Libertarianism,
I'll put that down nicely. But I remember the lessons
that I learned from it, and I continue on my journey.

Speaker 4 (01:33:44):
And yeah, you know, if you if the name of
the game truly is seeking the truth, then uh, much
like myself, you're gonna be wrong a lot along the
way trying to find out what the truth is.

Speaker 2 (01:33:57):
And so, but it's part of a learning experience.

Speaker 4 (01:33:59):
Guys, don't forge to go to toplopsa dot com check
out all the nephylin death Squad merch that we have
on there. Uh, and also go to Patreon dot com
backslash Nephelin Death Squad if you're looking for a way
to support the show. You gain early access to episodes
before they dropped, like this one with Jimmy Achin as
well as Bacon. As I thought I had, I said it,

(01:34:19):
I said it so like.

Speaker 2 (01:34:21):
H confidently Jimmy Achen. I said it like I knew.
I had it. I knew. Except for when you're confidence
and you're wrong. Uh, you're wrong.

Speaker 4 (01:34:30):
It's okay, guys, So go to Patreon dot com backslash
Nephlin Death Squad help support the show, and also like,
share and subscribe and leave us a five star rating
on your audience.

Speaker 3 (01:34:41):
On star rating.

Speaker 1 (01:34:41):
Don't do that, just say something you want to let.

Speaker 2 (01:34:43):
Us know how you feel. I guess it's fine. All right,
Thank you, Jimmy. I really appreciate your time and I
can't wait to have you back on. We'll certainly be in.

Speaker 3 (01:34:51):
Touch my pleasure. Thanks guys, all right, see you later, guys.

Speaker 2 (01:34:57):
Is a corner of the room. It is constantly telling us.

Speaker 3 (01:35:02):
What to believe.

Speaker 2 (01:35:03):
Is rail if you can persuasion that what they.

Speaker 3 (01:35:07):
See with their eyes is what there is to see Scott,
because they'll last in the face of an explanation that
portrays the bigger picture of what's happened.

Speaker 2 (01:35:17):
And they had

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