NextPod Soccer Podcast for December 15

In the final show of 2023, James and Duane talk to John Molinaro about the state of development at Toronto FC, wrap up the u17 World Cup, set up the women's U17 qualifying and touch on developments in the League1 pyramid. We end the show by reflecting on 2024 and looking ahead to season 2 of NextPod.

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
Welcome to Next Pod, your weeklylook at North American soccer prospects and the
West. Next bro Campiel and beyond. These are your homes, Dwayne Rod
and James Grossi, and welcome toNext Pod. Joining me Dwayne Rolands on

(00:27):
the line today. Is the mostpatient man in Toronto. They're right,
honorable, James Grossi. How youdoing, James, They're right honorable.
That's a new one, man.I'm doing well. I'm doing well.
It's you know, technically it's offseason, but you know, things haven't
slowed down at all since you know, when I last spoke. It's been
a little bit sleepy compared to someof the more hectic times, but still

(00:50):
keeping myself busy. Still lots ofstuff to keep on top of, both
at the professional level and down belowat the development level where you and I
are focused on this chat. SoI'm I'm excited to spend some time together
and to dig into some of that. I'm excited too. It's been a
couple of weeks. As James saidthat that's why I called him the most
patient man in Toronto, because hewas patiently waiting for me to stop having

(01:11):
emergencies at my work. They're askingme to do my job, James,
It's really really unfair of them toask me to do my job for in
exchange for money, But Alas Idid that. But we're back today.
This will be our last show oftwenty twenty four, our twenty twenty three.
Pardon me, I'm obviously a timetraveler as well, but it's going
to be our last show of twentytwenty three. We'll be back in January
twenty four for season two of theshow, hopefully with some improved sounds and

(01:34):
some improved other stuff there too.But we're gonna get through a pre action
packed show today First. John Molnarrowis going to join us a bit later,
but before we get into that,tell us, James, what's been
going on in the development world overthe past couple of weeks. Yeah,
as I said, I was lookingforward to having a bit of downtime,
but it's been anything. But wehad MLS Next Fest, the first major

(01:57):
event of the MLS Next season wrapup. Over the past week or so,
CF Montreal sent a couple of youngsters, including Alessandro Biello and guyel One
TV, off to Bologna for sometraining stints. Those are two guys that
jumped off the page for me asas young men that we've talked about a
little bit. And they also addedanother local club, CS Ruth Simon to

(02:19):
their scouting and development center, Solots of things happening in Canada. Soccer
announced a new championship for young players. Can we call the Player Development Program
Championship, you know, a reallycatch a name. There will be representatives
from the four the four leagues thatare a part of this PDP network,

(02:40):
Alberta Youth soccerbc's Soccer, Premier OntarioPlayer Development League, and the Premier League
Soccer Juvenile du Quebec will all besending teams and it'll be U seventeen and
U fifteen, both for boys andgirls. The tournament is set to kick
off in August of twenty twenty four, and that'll be two teams from each
of those members associations. So that'sanother sort of Premiere development tournament on the

(03:05):
horizon to put some of the bestplayers in the country and have them square
off against each other. So somethingelse to keep on top of. Tons
of League one news. With Leagueone Alberta officially joining the League one Canada
system. That will be the fourthprovince or provincial league under the fold of
League one Canada alongside Ontario, Quebecand DC. Of course, we had

(03:28):
our friend Dino Rossi stepping away fromhis role as president of League one Canada.
There lots of movement there. There'ssome rumblings of CFC rejoining League one
Ontario. I want a little bitmore concrete information before we dig too much
into that. And chrissop EFC,a team who's turned some heads on the
men's side of League one Ontario,are adding a women's side to their program.

(03:49):
So that's some exciting news as well. So yeah, lots going on,
even though it's supposed to be thesleepy time of the year. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely lots going on.I think the for our listeners,
the most interesting of all those mightbe that League one Alberta news. We
kind of knew it was coming,but it is good news. Nonetheless,
it is great to see that progress. You don't want to see, you

(04:12):
know, steps going backwards, andwe're certainly continuing to see League one grow
and growing into Alberta. You wouldhope that maybe this League One in Alberta
might lend itself to an ability tothen expand naturally further east from Alberta into
Manitoba and Saskatchewan in the near future, or perhaps they might even have a
way into those leagues for the Saskatchewanteams. We'll see how that works.

(04:34):
But quick thoughts on League One expandingout Alberta permanently. Now, Yeah,
well, like the press release mentionedthat, you know, the talks ongoing
for League one Maritimes and for Leagueone Prairies, are you know, hitting
all the boxes that they need tohit. They're just not quite ready yet.
And so yeah, this is somethingwe've talked about all year, is

(04:56):
how important it is to have thatnetwork coverage across the a whole of this
vast, vast country. And soanother another problem stepping up and starting to
lay that infrastructure that that, aswe've seen with Ontario, Quebec and BC,
is a really viable pathway for players. And for me, it's it's
all about filling in those gaps withinthe webs that allow players to take the

(05:19):
steps when they're ready and also tohave a place to continue playing when maybe
that next step isn't quite there infront of them. And so yeah,
just having another team there and Iknow Cavalry will be will be keenly watching
all those all those teams, allthose players, and so it's it's only
good things to have another another provinciallead stepping up to that to that level.

(05:43):
Yeah, there's been some rumblings ofsome ownerships might be interested in to
bring a Campel team back to Emonton. We'll believe that woman happens, but
hopefully it does. And obviously Leagueand Alberta having some roots there and having
some top soccer happening in Edmonston inthe meantime, it is good news for
everyone all around. And I reallyhope that we see League one Prairie get
going. You know, I thinkthe poor fans in Saskatchewan have been put

(06:06):
through the ringer in the past yearor so. We don't need to rehash
that, but but to have somethingto hold on to would be great for
them. And you know, there'salso if you move into Manitoba, and
I would think Northern Ontario would beincluded in that. Thunder Bay thunder Base
had a great program there for yearsthat has kind of been underserved because of
their geographical isolation. Then you reallyare you have a pyramid. Suddenly it's

(06:30):
a unique Canadian pyramid. I don'tknow if any other country in the world
would evolve this way, but Ithink it's it's obvious and it's natural to
me that this is how it worksout. And yeah, it has some
models based in the Camp Canaan HockeyLeague sort of model, and maybe some
people don't like that in the soccercommunity that we might be following a bit
of a hockey model. But sometimeswe've got to recognize that you don't fix.

(06:54):
You don't have to fix what's notbroken, right, and it works
for that sport, and it wouldwork in this or two to have those
regionals feeding into a final competition,as we've seen, and as we've seen
a man like Deino Rossi, whichis a segue build from a scratch since
he started that league about a decadeor so ago, you know, and
I've known each other for years.He's worked his bum off to build this

(07:18):
league up to this program, probablyemotionally and just for his own mental health.
It was probably time to make abit of a change. It might
be good to have some new leadershipas well. It's always good to have
some changes of ideas up there.But I don't know what much more to
say about, you know, otherthan just to thank him for his work
and recognize what great work it's been. Yeah, I know, I don't

(07:42):
have very much add to that otherthan you know. I really think one
of the first things we should dowhen we kick off for a twenty twenty
four season is have you know,on to sort of reflect on on that
ten year journey and look ahead towhat's next for him and for the legal
instructure as a whole. Yeah,and look continue the hockey comparison here for
a second. I think it's goodto change things up. You know,

(08:07):
Deno as a friend, as Isaid, and I respect him greatly,
but I think you can get alittle bit too comfortable in any role.
Anyone can. And David Branch isan example. And if you know who
David Branch is. If you don'tknow who David Branch is, He's the
commission of the Kennion Hockey League.He's been around well. When I was
a teenager watching junior hockey in Bilbo, Ontario, he was the commissioner of

(08:28):
the OHL. So the man who'sbeen in hockey for seven thousand years,
and if you look at some ofthe problems there, maybe some new leadership
might be not the best I'm notcomparing Dino too, mister branch Or the
problems of hockey which are very seriousright now with that of soccer. But
I think it's always good to changethings up, and it's good for everyone
to maybe get some refreshed ideas andto give a refreshment when it comes to

(08:50):
your own involvement in the sport.And Deno's hardly going to go away.
We know that, so we wishhim well and we should have him on
in the in the new year numbersof my phone, so it's one text
away. I'll have to get onthat, James, all right, you
briefly mentioned the rumor of TFC returningto League one. They were in League

(09:13):
one Ontario the first season they werethe champions of League one Ontario. That's
quite the team too. There wasa mobile bully was their top scorer there.
Marc Anthony k was a member ofthat team. That was a very
good team. If yould Sacramento asa guy, that's Campel players might remember
like there There's there was a lotof players on that team that went on
to have a decent run, includingyou know, a national team appearance by

(09:37):
Mark Anthony K or two so soit'd be interesting to see them come back.
We don't know if the top meyet and we're not going to delve
into much now, but it wouldbe certainly interesting to have them back in
the fold. We'd have to seewhat that meant in terms of their own
structures, but I would welcome it. I've always thought it was a little
bit unfortunate when they left, andthought that that was that they sometimes tied

(09:58):
themselves to the American system too muchfor a Canadian team. I get why,
but I also think that it's beneficialto maintain a flecting home and and
I kind of hope these rumors aretrue. James, Yeah, Yeah,
it's something that that I'll be keepingearly close on and that will discuss as
as things will come a little bitmore concrete. You know, we saw
them feel the U nineteen team andin this Winter Reserve tournament, and they

(10:22):
were they were pretty dominant. Dominantis the word I'm trying to say,
you're struggling with a little bit andwent on to win the final and that
and you know, we've talked aboutthis as well, that I think part
of that move down to the USSDAand then into MLS next was to ensure
that that week in, week outthey had the caliber of opposition that that
they needed to have. And maybemaybe with League one making the changes that

(10:43):
it has, we have the promotionand relegation system, maybe that has changed
in the intervening five six years,whatever it's been. So Yeah, always
good to keep an eye on themoving things. And that's the one thing
you can be sure of in inyouth so here in North America is that
it's a constantly shifting landscape and it'snever a bad idea to reevaluate things and

(11:05):
don't get stuck where you are justbecause it's what you've been doing. Yeah,
there is some complication you mentioned thepro rale, like where does a
TFC team come into League going Ontario. And I'm sure that the League Ontario
listeners out there would be saying thatthey should come in at the bottom where
the rest of the teams would comein, and I don't disagree with that,
but I suspect within TFC management theremight be some reluctance to come in

(11:28):
at a lower level than they feelthat they're going to get pushed at,
because that was why they were threwAs you just said, I do think
that the difference between leaguan Ontario nowand League on Ontario in the early years
is night and day in terms ofthe quality. It was a good league
back then. I think it isa very good league now with the top

(11:48):
six seven eight teams being able wouldbe able to really give TFC a run
week in week out. That said, I think TFC, even with the
youth team, comes in and instantlyis very competitive in the league as well.
I know there are folks out therethat get a little bit resistance of
the idea that TFC has the besttalent, but you know, they do

(12:09):
have the biggest resources, and theretends to be a correlation between resources and
talent sometimes jams, so it willbe interesting to watch that play out.
We did have an episode recorded thatunfortunately, through a lot of memes,
didn't get out, and I apologizefor that. But we talked about the
Under seventeen World Cup wrapped up,you know, right after right before we'd

(12:31):
recorded that, So let's just revisitthat because we had talked a lot about
the U seventeen World Cup prior toour little break there, and it turned
out Canada's group maybe it was alittle harder than we thought, just like
the World Cup, Just like theWorld Cup a year ago. It turns
out that when you have two semifinalists coming out of your group, maybe
it's a little harder in your thought. Yeah, that's exactly where my mind.

(12:52):
When you know, we were,as you said, we were all
a little bit disappointed. We hypedup Canada a little bit, hoping they'd
go in there and correct that firstwin at the U seventeen level, and
to get bounced out after three games, and to do so in a disappointing
fashion was obviously disappointing. And thetournament wrapped up. Since we last spoke
with Germany defeating France in a shootoutafter a two two draw with that old

(13:16):
us, that old saying about thedefinition of football in Germany. Win the
kids. But yeah, I mean, I mean Mali. They just batch
Mexico five mil in the round ofsixteen, beat Morocco one mil in the
quarterfinal, and we're ahead of Francein their semifinal, only for a red
card and a quick equalizing goal toturn the tide early in the second half,

(13:39):
and they went on to beat Argentinain the third place playoff for a
podium position at the U seventeen WorldCup who was Pakistan beat England to to
one in the round of sixteen andpushed the French in the quarterfinal, they
were denied a lead by an offsideflag, only for France to find the
winner in that match in the finalten minutes, and Spain the obvious challenge

(14:01):
in Canada's group, got past orPann in around of sixteen, but ended
up losing to the eventual champions Germanyin the quarterfinal with a penalty kick the
decisive factor in that match. Soone of the tricky things about the U
seventeen level is I think I saidgoing into the tournament that we all know
the teams that are kind of thereor thereabouts. You know, you know
Germany is going to have a goodside, you know, France, England,

(14:24):
Spain, all the big countries aregoing to have good talent. But
there's going to be teams that youknow very little about and lots of players
that you know absolutely nothing about.And this is one of those early chances
to put yourself on the world stageand to be a surprise. And so
the fact that Canada's group turned outto be a bit of a group of
death, at least from Canadian perspectives, is just something I think we should

(14:48):
note and maybe temper that disappointment thatwe initially felt. Well, the key
out of seventeen event isn't necessarily whetheryou wonder or lost it. It's great
for I think we've said this butten times this year. It's great for
the kids. While it's happening.It's great for us to support these kids.
Well, it's happening. But interms of a long view, what
matters is the conversion upward. Andif you look at the conversion of U

(15:09):
seventeen rosters, even from teams thatwin the USE seventeen World Cups, that
you know, you're still ultimately lookingat maybe ten to twenty percent of those
those players going on to have significantpro careers. So you have to have
the pro structures in place for themto advance to. And you know,
we just got done talking about aLeague Ontario conversation here that's continued to improvement
of our structures here. You know, the campl we're going to talk about

(15:31):
the camp draft after the interview withJohn Molnaro today. You know, that's
another other opportunities that league get strongerand stronger that younger players might get an
opportunity to play in that so thatwhen we go to you seventeen World Cups,
they're a little more battle tested.And I think that's maybe the bigger
difference right now. When they're playingthose big clubs, you have players that
are you know, practicing with worldclass talent and even getting any games for

(15:58):
clubs that you know you see peoplewear in their strips in downtown Toronto,
right like, these are significant clubs. These kids are coming through and our
guys just aren't there yet. Soit's just all a learning experience. But
you know, congratulations from them makingit. They got a great experience playing
two very good teams to find out, and a very famous team in Spain,

(16:18):
and nothing wrong with that. Allright, let's take a quick break
now, I'm gonna come back.We're gonna bring John Molnarrow on. If
you don't know John, John isone of the best reporters in the game.
In my mind, he when Johnsays something's true, it's true.
So if you don't follow him,follow him, get his newsletter, pay

(16:40):
for his newsletter. And yeah,before you do any of that, though,
let's listen to him. Just listento and talk with us right after
this quick break and welcome back tonext pot joining us on the line.

(17:03):
A legend in the TFC press boxis John Molnarrow Sportsnet TFC Republic. Whats
stuff, John, How are youdoing good? Dwayne James, how are
you guys doing We're doing pretty well. Before we jump in, just tell
people about your site, TFC Republicif they haven't heard about it. Yeah,
So TFC Republic dot Ca. It'smy paywall site that features all and

(17:26):
everything on Toronto FC, in depthcoverage I like to think nuance coverage of
Canada's original MLS team. So yeah, people can subscribe. We've got pretty
reasonable rates and you get to readall my stuff there. So it's a
good time. So, John,I want to jump into to TFC now
a little bit because you have beenaround for a long time. TFC is

(17:52):
struggled, I think to convert playersto the first team. I think it's
fair to say, is there anyreason that that happens in your mind or
is it just sort of a naturaloutcome of of what MLS is. I
think it's largely the second thing yousaid, just a largely byproduct of what
MLS is, and I think inToronto's case, it's probably exasperated, if

(18:19):
that's the right word, in thesense that, you know, I think
that glory period of twenty fifteen toyou know, twenty twenty, where they
reached you know, three MLS cups, you know, one at once,
reached the Champions League finals. Youknow, I can't remember how many Canadian
championships. There's two or three inthere. I mean, when you look
at that squad, you know whowho was at the center of the roster.

(18:41):
It was Michael Bridley, it wasJosie Altador, Sebastian Javinko, Drew
More, Jonathan Assario, you know, Stephen Beta Short a certain extent,
Alex Bono. These are all sortof guys who were either you know,
signed or traded for or acquired orsigned as free agent. And you know,

(19:02):
so I think, you know,built on that, you know,
the team's success was largely built onyou know, those types of players.
And I think there was just anatural default from TFC over the years too,
to default to those sort of typesof players rather than look to,
you know, players throughout in theirin their own system. I think the

(19:22):
you know, the pressure to winand to be relevant in this in this
market in Toronto, is is youknow, especially great because there's so much
competition, right, You've got theRaptors, You've got you know, the
J's, you've got the maple leafsa certain extent, you've got the argos,
and there's other things as well goingon. And so I think there's
just such great pressure on MLC toput a winning team on the field.

(19:45):
And there is a sense I getfrom talking to people that you know,
with the old saying that you can'twin with kids, that you have to
have like experienced hands, experienced playersin there. And so I think that's
a large part of what's driving it. Now. That's not to say that
you know, the team hasn't sortof graduated team or players into you know,

(20:06):
the first team from the youth academy. When you look at you know,
I look over the last couple ofyears alone, there's been players of
the caliber of you know Jade Nelsonand Jaquille Marshall, Ruddy, you know
Cosey Thompson, you know several otherswho you know, cut their teeth in
the academy, went up to TFCto learn their trade and then you know,

(20:29):
made made it graduated into the firstteam. But I think that you
know those you know, the numberof players who have you know, followed
that path and and you know,became regular starters and became key figures for
the team. I think there's fewand far between. Obviously, Jaye Nelson
during his one season as a starterdid quite well before he got sold off.
And when you look at someone likeKobe Franklin, you know, I

(20:51):
would argue, who's probably among oneof the TFC's most consistent and best players
this year. But as I said, I think there is a sense that
there's a comfort at TFC and withan m ll C that you know it
has to be done with veterans justbecause of the pressure to to succeed,
and that you know, there isn'tthat same comfort level that you know success
can be attained with, you know, with young players. So I think

(21:14):
that's a large I think that's largelywhat's driving it. John. This is
something you and I talk about anawful lot on our subway rides back down
from the from the training grounds.Uh. You know you mentioned Kobe Franklin.
You and I were both really highon him. I think Alonzo Coelo
is a guy that that we sawglimpses of what he can do this year,
and you know how how high Iam Luca gavern is being a guy

(21:37):
who's ready to to step into intothe first team environment if not, if
not be a starter himself, andI think we saw that over his couple
of cameos towards the end of theyear. But yeah, it's it's it's
been an interesting facet of CFC tofollow the draw of bringing in guys who
you know exactly what they're going toget, versus taking that risk of bringing

(21:59):
guys in internally. And you know, some clubs go that you route and
some clubs don't. The number ofguys that we've seen move on, like
Liam Fraser was a guy that thatI thought was was good enough to step
into that Michael Bradley role when thetime came, and you know, his
time comes and goes. Ralph Priso, another guy who I was really high
on, sort of gets moved outto make room for for Mark Anthony k

(22:22):
coming back, who's just another guywho came up through the TFC system only
to go elsewhere to find that sortof success. So yeah, it's it's
an interesting it's an interesting element tofollow, and I think you're you're spot
on with the club is is morecomfortable with with having you know, seasoned
professionals that can step into those roles. And you know, we all love

(22:42):
to see those homegrown guys and hopefullythe next crop and make a name for
themselves with the team, but it'salways going to be that balancing act of
finding opportunities for guys but also knowingthat you've got that quality there, John,
I wanted to go back. Iwanted to look back with you a
little bit here and you know,kind of get a sense of what the
player development pathway looked like when whenyou were starting out in this soccer covering

(23:06):
game of ours. Who were someof those first guys that you sort of
tracked their the ascent of their careersand what did what did the landscape look
like back in those days. Arewe talking about TFC or just Canadian soccer
in general, just Canadian soccer ingeneral. I'm thinking, yeah, I
mean it was. It really waskind of like a free for all and
to a certain extent, players whoyou know, showed promise were very much

(23:30):
on their own. You know,we're talking pre Canadian clubs and MLS days.
I can remember watching a Tiba Hutchinson, you know, playing for the
Toronto Lynx, you know, atVarsity Stadium in god the nineties, late
nineties, whatever it was, maybeit was the early two thousands, and
I'm dating myself here, and youknow, I'm thinking, you know,
this guy is you know, toogood for this league, and he's going

(23:52):
to go places and he's going toyou know, go somewhere and going to
greater success. But you know,what was the past way for him at
the time, There really wasn't anyHe really had to sort of make,
you know, a break for himself, and you know he ended up,
you know, you know, gettingtrials in with European clubs and you know,
bounced around between Sweden and Holland andDenmark and finally, you know,

(24:15):
ended up you know, Club Iconat Bashiktas in Turkey. But it was
largely his doing. I mean,it was really you know, something that
he had to do on his ownand make that sort of opportunity for himself.
I think if someone like Julian deGuzman as well, who you know,
left to go, you know,join the youth academy at believe,
the Olympic Marseille as a youngster andthen you know, played in Germany and

(24:38):
you know, really got his bigbreak at Deportivo Lakaruni in Spain. And
there are countless stories of that,as I'm sure Dwayne could could sort of
weigh in on as well of talentedplayers at the time who you know,
there was just no opportunities here.There was no sort of developmental pathway if
that in that if they really wantedto you know, reach that next level

(25:00):
and you know, get to thenext level of their careers, they really
had to go to Europe and essentiallyyou know, create an opportunity for themselves.
But when I think back to it, I mean, yeah, it
really was kind of where players werereally left on their own. I think
those are the two that really standout. Again, having saw a tea
but at at Varsity Stadium for theLinks, I just thought, you know,

(25:22):
this kid is going to go somewhereand he can be a great star.
And you know, Dwayne two,you know, we or sorry,
Julian, you know we here wekind of heard rumblings of this young kid
who was was going to France andhad a great deal of you know,
potential, and boy did it everpan out and it's interesting that you know,
those two became one of the youknow, future captains of Canada.

(25:44):
I think they're one and two incaps or you know, certainly Julian is
up there. But it's just interestinghow it panned out that they went on
to become, you know, suchgreat stars at club level and for the
countries. But it was largely,you know, based on the hard work
that they had to do them cellsin terms of you know, finding their
career paths. We use the wordtrailblazer pretty lately these days, but I

(26:07):
think both those two gentlemen fall intothat category question, I think, and
I think it's interesting that Julian nowis involved in the some Coke County rovers
we had. We had one ofthe member of our front office on a
couple of months ago just to giveus a lay down. And so it's
always good when you see those guyswho have walked to the pathway come back
into the game and continue to sharetheir experiences in those ways. Uh,

(26:30):
if we fast forward to now,what do you see as the pathway right
now? What are the biggest changes, What are the things that give you
encouragement that Canada can can continue togrow and to be in a proper soccer
nation. In terms of creating apathway for players with promise, well,
I think the big thing is justyou know, with the Canadian MLS teams

(26:53):
that you know, with the academysystem, right, I mean, there's
pretty excuse me, the fact thatthey have sort of been vested, you
know, in their own academies andthey are sort of you know, committed
to the development. Now we canmake the argument that they're not doing a
good enough job and there should beyou know, a lot more that they're
doing, and then I think that'sabsolutely a fair criticism. But you know,

(27:15):
I can remember talking to Bobby Leinerdoozylike a long time ago, and
he said it really should be upto the clubs to a large extent to
sort of in terms of developmental interms of developing young talent, because you
know, youth academies and that aretied to clubs, you know, those

(27:36):
are the guys they're going to beworking with those players on a daily basis.
They're the ones who can be chartingthem from day to day. Sometimes
you know, they're going to trainwith the senior team and they'll get to
sort of bend the ear of youknow, senior team players and learn from
then. And Bobby seemed to suggestthat that was sort of the pathway forward
to really develop like a lot ofgood players because again, they're going to

(27:57):
be in that sort of working environmentday to day as you know, if
they were developed through like a nationalsystem, you know, a national youth
program, you know, those coachesare only going to see them, you
know, not nearly as much.And and I just think, I just
think there's a sense that that youknow, really the clubs have really invested

(28:19):
in you know, youth development,and again they should be doing like a
lot better. But I think that'sbeen the biggest change that now. You
know, when the MLS team's spacatingteams came into an MLS, you started
to see this career path, right, this developmental path of you know,
signing on as a young player,going to the youth academy, going on

(28:40):
to MLS next pro or even beforethat, you know, graduating to the
senior team and then you know,either having success in MLS and or moving
abroad. So you know, Ithink twenty years ago that would have been
really unimaginable just when you think aboutwhere we were right now. So for
me, I think that's probably beenone of the biggest and most positive changes.

(29:06):
John, it suck with camp alla little bit. You were involved
with that league for a while.Is it meeting what you thought in terms
of the development side or do youthink the more can be done there to
sort of push younger players forward oris it not even something we should be
worried about. Oh, I thinkit's something we should always be worried about.
I think you know, you alwayssort of want to replenish, you
know, the stock, restock theshelves, right and sort of you know,

(29:32):
develop as many players as you can, so that way, it's not
just from a national team perspective,but just you know, I think it's
good that you have as many playersplaying the sport as possible and then you
know, hopefully that has national teamramifications because it widens the player pool for
you know, whoever the national teamcoaches. But yeah, I think it's
overall it's been a positive. Look. I mean, like with the MLS

(29:53):
academies, is there more that therecould be doing? Could they be doing
better? Absolutely? But you lookat you know, the under twenty,
you know the under twenty one,you know, quotas in the CPL.
I think that's been a positive.It's really you know, the league when
you think about it, it's reallygiven opportunities, excuse me, to players,

(30:15):
you know, professional opportunities, toplayers who otherwise would have slipped through
the cracks or who might not havehad the chance to play. They would
not have necessarily been you know,looked at by MLS clubs or European clubs,
and this is really, you know, the only sort of viable option
that they had. And so Ithink it's been positive. You know,
the fact that you have you know, players like Joel Waterman and and Mo

(30:40):
Farsie and you know, Jason RussellRowe sorry, Mo Farsie and Joel Waterman
you know, cutting their teeth inthe CPL and then eventually graduating you know,
t MLS. That's been positive.I've been a little disappointed in terms
of the number of players, excuseme, in terms of the number of
players from the CPL who have movedon to MLS. I thought after five

(31:04):
years that you know, that numberwould have been a little bit higher.
But you know, I think it'sit's still a positive that you see guys
who have you know, who've sortof done what they've had to do,
you know, cut their teeth andlearn their craft, you know, at
a lower league before you know,moving on to a higher level. I'd
like to see more of that.But you know, I think, you

(31:26):
know, overall, the league hasbeen positive and it's it's as I said,
it's given a lot of opportunities toplayers, Canadian players who otherwise,
you know, probably wouldn't get achance to make a professional living playing soccer.
So I think that's been really positive. Yeah, John, The thing
that I always try to remind myselfwhenever I think about, you know,
where the CPL is and where wewant it to be is now. I

(31:48):
think the pandemic really sort of alteredsome of the timelines that that we might
have hoped to have see from seenfrom the league, where we're starting to
see the the first little bits ofclubs, you know, rea down into
the local youth systems. We gotCalgary Cavalry out in Calgary with their alliance
with Foothills and the work that they'redoing with Alberta Soccer. We saw a

(32:09):
big announcement from fordge earlier this year, but bringing Hamilton that the local Hamilton
clubs sort of under their their pyramid, and Halifax is doing a lot of
good work out there. Some clubsthat are doing it better, some clubs
that you know, have some distanceto make up. But you know,
if I go back to the foundingof those MLS academies, it took them
a good you know, some ofthat was the turnover in the front offices

(32:31):
and the coaching staffs that we sawat all the clubs over the years,
but it took them a good decadeto get their feet under them. So
I'm hopeful that that as things goalong, the CPL can play an even
bigger role in bringing in their ownplayers and developing their own players, and
we're starting to see the fruits ofthose young guys getting opportunities. We had
two players in the you seven teamsat the recent World Cup and no I

(32:53):
thought to Vernie and Tahed were twoof the more consistent players for Canada and
those three matches there. I guesswhat we'll wrap up with is, you
know, we we touched a littlebit on the history, we touched a
little bit on the current circumstances,but you know, what are you looking
for that as those next signposts alongthe road that that Canada is doing things

(33:15):
right. What are what are someof the some maybe not specific changes that
you'd like to see, but whatare some of the things that that you
think will raise an eyebrow from youand go, okay, we're doing some
work here. Well, I meanit's probably from just from the national level
in terms of you know, Canadasoccer. I think, you know,
when you look at the recent Useventeen World Cup and how Canada performed and

(33:37):
you know, buying out after threegames. You know, I hate to
say say this, but I wasn'tterribly surprised that that happened, because you
know, they're going against teams thecaliber of Spain, who you know,
had players who have you know,made you know, senior team seen senior
team debuts for Barcelona and Real Madrid. And you're talking about a Canadian team
who you know a lot of theirplayers are still at youth academies and CPL

(34:01):
teams and there was a couple fromabroad. But you know, a team
that largely only gets together, youknow, two or three times a year,
maybe I think there has to beand you know, I say this,
while you know Canada soccer is cashstrapped, but I think there has
to be more resources poured into sortof the youth programs and just in terms

(34:22):
of getting you know, allowing theplayers to come together more as a team,
you know, more often during theyear, more resources poured into the
that the coaches have at their disposal, because I mean, you know,
those players have to sort of cometogether and play on a regular basis together,
and I think, you know,obviously when they do that, then
that's going to have just benefit forthe national team but also on their individual

(34:45):
sort of club careers. So Idon't know, for me, I don't
know if that's sort of the biggestthing that has to happen, but it's
it's one that I've sort of tooknotice of, just based on Canada's performance
at the U seventeen World Cup.I definitely like to see. I think
there has to be more sort ofinvestment and where more resources poured into the
you know, the youth programs.At the national team level. We're still

(35:07):
a very young soccer nation. Ithink it's important to reenter that. Sometimes
getting to a World Cup last year, it seems like everything has gotten backwards
since, but it was a remarkableaccomplishment, and you know, we still
a World Cup in three years tolook forward to. John. Appreciate your
time. I always like reading yourwork, and I encourage readers to sign

(35:29):
up for TFC Republic because when Johnsays something's happening with TFC, it's happening
with tfc most reliable voice out there. John. Thanks again, thanks guys
for having me pleasure, and thanksagain to John Ford joining us, and

(35:57):
welcome back to you for listening.Thank you to Thank you everyone, and
merry Christmas. Have a merry Christmas, all of you. They're festive today,
James, let's talk about the CAMPLdraft. Who doesn't get festive when
they're talking about the CAMPL Draft?I mean, come on, yeah,
I mean, what's not to loveabout draft season. It's sort of a

(36:22):
I'm more used to starting off theyear with the MLS Super Draft, but
the fact that December has become draftmonths, and all of a sudden,
we have cpl U Sports Draft thisweek and the MLS Neck and the MLS
Super drafts coming up the week afterthat. I mean, it's a good
way to sort of wrap up theyear, sort of spring boarders ahead to

(36:45):
what's coming next the draft. Adraft for me is always about future potential,
and so to sort of wrap upa year of soccer by by looking
at what we can anticipate to beon the horizon in the next two,
three, four years. However itworks out, it's always a little bit
exciting for me. But it comesat a time of year where I can

(37:07):
only read so many more player profilesand I can only watch so many more
sketchy YouTube clips. So I justsort of go in as a bit of
a blank slate and try and keepmyself aware of what's happening and look forward
to seeing these boys when they geta chance out there on the field.
Yeah, I don't you know.MLS Super Draft has how many first round

(37:30):
picks, twenty eight or whatever,So we don't go through those, but
very quickly Owen Shepherd with the firstround pick or first overall pick from Saint
John's, Newfoundland. That's kind ofan interesting story from an unexpected place.
He played at cape at University.Valor selected him with the first pick overall.
The rest of the first round vacouverResci Luke Norman from the University British
Columbia. We have Luca Pacholi fromCarlton University went to Athletico Ottawa and the

(37:54):
third pick local pick there. That'ssomething that we're going to talk about a
lot. Both of those two BCVancouver Carleton that's in Ottawa went to Ottawa.
Christian Zeppierre, Oh my god,I can't pronounce that Zappiery. He's
from York University. Daniel Clark,Michael Maslanka Hayden, rozen Sinski and Mohammed

(38:21):
Maddie. Okay, they did nothelp the pronunciation guide today. So there
you go. There's your first roundpick. I'm sure you could find that
on campl dot c A. Butwe're not going to ask you, James,
to break down the picks one byone because well that's not really what
we're here for. But as yousay, I have no real throw to
it. It's just, you know, there's no more comments on it.

(38:43):
But I do think it's it's interestingto watch how this draft evolves and hopefully
we get to see some of theseplayers prior their trade. There there there
is a talking point, and I'mgoing to talk my involved self into a
circle until I find a talking point, and that is the localness of it.
We did talk about that before abouthow players the teams tend to pack
local players, and there's a logicalreason for that, I think, but

(39:05):
I'll let you speculate and what thatlogical reason might be before I jump in
with more thoughts. Yeah, yougot there. You got there in the
end, and pronunciation for these guyswhen you're just sort of getting on your
radar is always a little bit tricky. But I wanted to give a shout
out to it to our friend BenSteiner forty nine Sports and CBC Sports dot
Ca with his mock draft. Mockdrafts are always tough. You sort of

(39:30):
try and look at what a teamneeds and who they might have had their
eye on, and considering how undercoveredU Sports has been, hit sixteen out
of seventeen, I mean seven,he hit seven out of sixteen. Of
his mock draft selections were spot onin terms of the right club and the
right player. One of those,he thought they were taking the guy in

(39:52):
the first round. They ended uptaking him in the second. But I'll
grant him that, and that's that'sa pretty spectacular return for for a mock
draft. I don't think I've seenanybody get anywhere near fifty percent on their
mock draft before, so kudos toBen on that. And yeah, the
theme one of the things that Bentalked about when we had them on was
how teams have tended to go intotheir own backyards when it comes to picking

(40:15):
players out of this draft. It'snot necessarily about who the best young player
in U sports is and getting himin. It's more about getting a guy
that you're familiar with and that maybehas some ties to the areas or that
you've been able to keep an eyeon as they've developed a little bit.
You mentioned it Vancouver FC. Bothpicks were BC products. Athletico Ottawa grabbed

(40:37):
one young man from Carlton and anotherfrom twelve a year HFX hit up Cape
Breton University in Saint Francis Xavier University. Cavalry looked at Mount Royal University in
the University of Alberta and York selectionof Zeppiery is a guy who played at
York Lion Stadium this season. Sonone of those guys are going to be
are going to be pushed too farinto their comfort zones when it comes to

(40:59):
joining the CPO sides. And Ido think the two outliers are also worth
noting as well, you know,Pacific grabbed a pair of Ontario based players
out of the U of T andout of Western and Forge Forge. They
continued that little there's there's been alittle threat of Francophone players going through through
Bobby Schmarni Onus's system, and theypicked up another one in Common and Die

(41:23):
and out of another gentleman with aFrench name, at least in Amadu Cone.
So lots of those trends that we'veseen playing out have continued in this
one, and I'm just curious tosee how these guys do. It's you
know, we're still really young inthe CPL and in the cpl U sports

(41:44):
affiliation, and has been mentioned inthat long conversation we had recently, there's
a lot of reasons why it's notnecessarily the life changing getting grafted. Isn't
that life changing moment that it canbe in some other sports right now.
But every every year that we dothis, I think we get a little
bit closer to solidifying those pathways thatwe talk about so much. And so

(42:07):
I wish these sixteen young men nothingbut the best, and I look forward
to seeing which one of them canemerge and be true talents in the Canadian
Premier League. Yeah, I lookedat the draft list that saw Owen Shepherd
and Luke Norman as the first twopicks and thought all these names would be
a piece of cakes. I didn'tbother practicing the rest, so I apologized
toward that. But look drafts tome, I have a funny relationship with

(42:32):
them. You're right, like,it's not life changing in any way.
The money that we're talking about,it is quite minimal here that they have
an opportunity, however, to getsome professional experience and to test the waters
to see whether that's really where theywant to go. Because you know,
with all due respect to anyone who'sin a mpl DRFT situation, these are

(42:52):
brilliant players, much better than Icould ever imagine playing the game. But
there's still you know, they're notin the radar of Barcelona, right so
that they're going to have to fightfor everything in a professional career, and
some of them might break through andhave a great one, but it's going
to be a battle, and it'sgoing to be a battle before those paychecks
are are more than often what theywould make by using that engineering degree or

(43:14):
that or going to law. Schoolor what have you. So there's some
decisions to be made there and it'sgoing to be interesting. The one thing
I do like about the campl draft, and I will give it credit for
this, is it does sort ofunderline how strong and how important the U
sports level is to the Canadian pyramid. And I think the U sports often
is the ugly stepchild of Canadian sportsand it gets forgotten. You know,

(43:37):
maybe we might go to the oddfootball game when we went to university,
you know, Gohawks, but byand large most of us don't really follow
it here. If we do followcollege sports, it's south of the border
because it's you know, on TV, and it seems more excited and big.
But CAMPL U sport is a goodlevel. It is a very good

(43:57):
level, and it deserves respect inthese and these drafts sorted do give it
attention and the attention to deserves.And you see programs like the Cape Brett
University program of the current national champions, they they do brilliant job. They're
a professional factory. Like you know, you look back at the draft history,
there's you're telling me out there,there's appearances numbers, it's like what
close to two hundred or something professionalappearances they've created. Now, that's really

(44:20):
remarkable for a program that, ifyou don't know the geography of Canada,
is in a very remote area andnot a place she'd expect for a soccer
power us to be. But theydo great jobs and these drafts give us
an opportunity with the first overall pickto highlight that and her first store pick
that comes from Saint John's Newfoundland andMaray that doesn't have a League one program,
that doesn't have a professional team,Kate Bretton would be the closest big

(44:43):
program they have, So it showsthat there is a need to fill those
gaps in still and U sports isthat level that does that here, Yeah,
just to give you the official numbers, Kate Bretton University leads the way
both with total players selected and twelveyoung men have been selected at Cape Bretton
University and in total CPO games played, which is at one hundred and seventy

(45:04):
six as things stand all right before, we we're just going to a brief
wrap of the year and talk alittle bit about twenty twenty four. Before
that, I did miss something onthe agenda earlier on. We did want
to mention the women's under seventeen programhad a couple of games in Portugal.
Maybe let's just revisit that quickly beforewe move forward and look ahead to twenty
twenty four. Yeah, I'm HumphreysU seventeen side. We're in Portugal recently

(45:27):
for a bit of a training campand two matches against the Portuguese side.
They lost the first one to niland won the second by the sec by
the same score line, with AdrianaBianchin and Annabel Chuiclu scoring the goals.
The U seventeens will be in actionin February at the Contact Women's U seventeen
Championship, where they will square offagainst Puerto Rico, Panama and the USA.

(45:49):
The top three sides from that willqualify for the twenty twenty four U
seventeen World Cup. In twenty twentytwo, Canada finished third, winning the
third place match after falling to theUS and the semi finals. So a
nice little, nice little chance forEmma to get the girls together, have
a bit of time training in Europeand the face stiff competition in those two
matches, so hopefully they'll be readyfor that early action in February. And

(46:15):
we'll be back to chat about thatwhen the time comes. Yeah, that'll
be one of the first topics ofobviously come crusation in season two. You
know, as we said, withthe men's level, you really don't know
what the talent is at any givenlevel. But I'll say this, the
European countries, the traditional European countriesof which Portugal obviously is one, had
been raising their game on the women'sside. So any result against a European

(46:37):
team I think has to be takenseriously and has to be applauded. At
this point. Came women of courseat a different level than the Kadie man.
At this level at the women's SportingWomen's World Cup tournaments, they should
be going into to compete and godeep rather than you know, make it
out of a group. But Ithink that's a good result there, and
we'll watch that tournament with interest.As I said, this is the final

(47:00):
show of twenty twenty three, Iwas joking with James off the air that
we got real nerdy on the showthis year, where we're soccer geeks to
the core. I really thought thatthis this not to ptute my own horn
error too. James more horn moreno offense dreams. I don't want to
tooot your horn that we h.I think we're doing a good job here

(47:22):
and I think that we're serving aniche that isn't there. And I'm quite
proud of some of the work thatwe've done this year and I'm looking forward
to going into twenty twenty four.What what are some of your favorite topics
that we tackled this year. Yeah, I keep a bit of a spreadsheet,
more of a Google doc actually,I just you know, some of
the topics that we hit on,some of the interviews that were done,

(47:44):
just to make sure we're hitting thingsregularly and keep it on top of everything.
And you know, I went backand spent a bit of time reminiscing,
and you know, it kind ofstarted out. We kind of hit
our stride when TSS Rovers had theirCanadian Championship upset, beating Valor in that
first round, sort of make someheadlines there. We tracked the cpl sending
roots out into the local community,which I think is going to be a

(48:06):
story that we're definitely interested in keepingan eye on going forward. We saw
Forge start their partnership with the HamiltonSoccer Clubs, around there. We saw
Cavalry build up their their grassroots system. We see Halifax doing the same,
so that's something we're going to keepan eye on. We've developed a couple
of regulars. We had Michael McCollon to talk about all things BC.

(48:28):
We had Pierce Lang, our residentLeague one Ontario correspondent, and Ben Steiner
came on a couple of times totalk to you sports. And one of
the ongoing themes that we tracked wasthe cpl U twenty one minutes. We
had all all three key members ofthe MPL dot ca A staff on at
various times, with Benedict Rhodes andCharlie O'Connor, Clark and Mitchell Tierney.

(48:50):
We had Travis Clark on to coversome Canadian content in the NCAA and he's
a guy that we're going to haveback on again in the future. We
tracked the women's youth, We trackedthe men's U fifteen's. We even had
their coach, Mike Bitchiuano on whichI thought was a really fascinating interview.
And we tracked the men's U seventeensas they embarked on a World Cup journey,
which is always a special moment forthe boys on On the League one

(49:15):
side, we talked to League OneSudbury to Sudbury's Connor vander Way as they
get started for their first year inthe league. We talked to c S
Saint Lawrence technical director Rocco Class abouttheir program over there in Quebec. And
we have the Simcoe County Rovers CEOPeter Rocco on. So you know,
between those we hit two of thethree League One clubs that'll feature in the

(49:35):
twenty twenty four Canadian Championships. Soyou know, come January February, we're
going to be getting somebody from theVictoria Highlanders on just to complete that set.
Uh. I thought our interview withwith white Caps FC two coach Rico
Clark was a highlight for me,as well as speaking with MLS Next Pro
champion salma A Zafaro from from AustinFC's second team. We had a good

(49:58):
chat with Canada Soccer's manager referee,you know, Isaac Raymond. I actually
saw him in Fabriziossola, one ofthe one of the referees that's that's reached
that sort of international level for Canadaafter they ran into them in the tunnels
of being all field after the controversialhandbaffs call that saw Canada lose out on
the Contact Nations League finals against Jamaica. If I'd been a little bit more

(50:20):
alert, a little more short,I would have asked them of their thoughts
on that decision. But I thinkI know they would have said that by
the letter of the law, thatwas a penalty, and so it's probably
sort of best that I didn't botherthem with that one. We tracked Amanda
Allen and Olivia Smith and Annabel Chuand Jennifer and as Gray as they you
know, made some big steps intheir young careers, and we kept a
good eye on the League one system. I thought our interview with Dino was

(50:44):
was fantastic and as I mentioned earlier, I think we should have them on
once more for a bit of aretrospective on his time. When the new
year comes around and you know twentytwenty four is going to be more of
the same. We got three bigtournaments on the horizon. We'll kick it
off in February with the Women's Useventeen count CAFF Championship. Canada's qualified for
that. Amma Humphreys will be leadingthat side, as we've just touched on.

(51:07):
Also in February we have the CONCTCAFFMen's U twenty qualification, with that
championship coming up later in the summer. Canada was drawn into Group D alongside
Dominica, Trinidad and Tobago and SaintVincent and Grenadine. So I don't imagine
that will be too rigorous of thechallenge for the U twenty group, but
we'll we'll definitely be keeping an eyeon that and looking forward to just who

(51:30):
makes that squad and seeing how theyfare in that qualification tournament. It should
be a little bit like what thewomen experienced at the U seventeens and U
twenty levels, where they had hadto go through that preliminary session before getting
into the tournament proper. And aswe saw with the men's national team,
sometimes sometimes the long journey is whathelps you reach greater heights. So we'll

(51:50):
be watching that, watching that closely. And then in September we've got the
U twenty Women's World Cup in Columbia. Canada's already qualified. That draw will
be held in the summer, soit's going to be another big year.
And you know, as you said, one of the things that I'm kind
of looking forward to getting into nextseason is to dig more into things at
the provincial levels and see what's goingon, you know, below the national

(52:14):
level that it's a little bit easierto keep track of what's happening. You
know, Canada Soccer puts out pressreleases, we all see it, we
can all talk about it. ButI want to see more of what's happening
at the at the different provincial associations, get get some insights into what they
do on a day to day basis, and I'd like to dig in a
little bit more with specific clubs andbring more voices onto to give people a

(52:37):
better sense of all the work thatis done unseen for this game in this
country and sort of highlight some ofthat. So, you know, that's
that's what I'm proud of that wedid this year and where I think we
can know when twenty twenty four holesaround. Yeah, lucky funny story quickly
that the Rico Clark interview, I, you know, do this and then

(52:59):
that my work that I carve atan hour and James tells me who the
guest is, I write it down, I write it his full name.
I'm halfway through the interview where Irealize I'm talking to you know, Recal
Clark, but at any rate thatthat's just kind of funny. But as
proud as I am i'm getting guestsof that caliber or you know, form
US men's national team player, I'mfound that the interview with Subody Cyclones to

(53:22):
be just as enlightening and interesting,and that's kind of where I vision this
show, Like, if we're goingto get a big name on here,
we're going to get a big nameon here for a reason, like we
did with Rico, and it wasa great interview, no doubt he knows
his stuff and it was great totalk to him, But we're as interested
in talking two guys that, youknow, managing a League One program,

(53:42):
And in fact, maybe even moreso. I'm fascinated to watch how the
lower led the tiers work in LeagueOne this year. I'm really excited to
see what that second tier means,what that level is, and kind of
how clubs, smaller clubs maybe usethat as a springboard to get to bigger
places or to find their place.I talked about that a lot this year.
I'm really interested to watch that playout in real time. Next year.

(54:07):
You know, I'm also interested indoing a little bit more Next Pro
and I think that if there's oneregret I have for twenty twenty three,
James, it's that we didn't doas much Next Pro coverage as I like.
I think part of that was thefact that Apple didn't help us out.
But I would hope to maybe doa bit more next year, get
a little bit deeper in there andthis. You know, I say this

(54:28):
recognizing that there's not many other placesthat did more than us, but it's
you'd like to dive into that level. And I think that the league itself
could do a better job of promotingitself, particularly to those of us in
the Hindrald out here in Canada.But yeah, lots of fun stuff.
I've really enjoyed this show. Scratchedmy podcasting itch after doing a daily show

(54:49):
for seven years, you know,it was a bit weird and not of
anything, and then to bring intosomething I wanted to do, something that
was a lot different than what Iwas doing in the past, and I'm
really glad that I did it.This is a show that I've always wanted
to do and I'm glad to bedoing it For season two, hopefully with
a new entry. I'd like tothank they never were asked, so I'd
like to ask for forgiveness and thankthe Mahones for providing the intro to this.

(55:13):
It's Drunken Lazy Bastard's the name ofthe show. If you want to
download it and give them some pennieson your download streams there. But I'm
probably going to refresh that for seasontwo. You won't have the Celtic punk
blasting years at the start of everyshow and in every break we'll mix that
up a little bit. Other thanthat, James, we'll probably tighten up
a few other things and hopefully learnfrom season one here and go into twenty

(55:36):
twenty four fresh. I'm excited.I'm excited to see what soccer brings.
It's a great thing about the sportthat we love, James, as it
never ends, it always evolves,and there's always something to look forward to.
And I'm looking forward to twenty twentyfour not knowing, James, unless
you have anything else to say,Do you have anything else to say?
No, We'll see you in twentyfour all right, bye, President the Company s