NextPod Soccer Podcast for July 11

After taking last week off to celebrate Canada Day, James and Duane are back this week to talk Canada at the Gold Cup, with an eye towards the younger players that got a look there. They discuss the lack of opportunities that young guys are going to get going forward with no Olympic Qualifying to look forward to and lament the state of youth performance. lastly, the boys look at the League1 Ontario relegation scrap and James tells us why he's not as big a fan of Pro/Rel as you might expect!

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
Welcome to Next Pot, your weeklylook at North American soccer prospects and US
next Broke, campl and beyond.These are your hosts, Dwayne Roland and
James GROSSI yeah, and welcome theNext Pot. I'm Dwayne Rolands. We're

(00:28):
back after a week. We tookthe week off to celebrate Canada Day,
all the great holidays, summertimes herein the country, cut through the James
and I call home and then wetalked about on this podcast. But we're
back again to talk about the wackyworld of Canadian soccer and development side in
particular. Before we get into it, James, how are you doing today,
we'll Dwyane. It's been a relativelyquiet couple of weeks in the Canadian

(00:51):
Nah, who my kid, It'sbeen madness as usual. I mean TFC
making changes left and right, givensome young players a lot of opportunities in
recent week, send a new interimhead coach, Terry Dunfield. We got
the men at the Gold Cup,we got the women squad gn already for
Australia. So yeah, another coupleof crazy weeks in Canadian soccer. My
head's spending a little bit feeling alittle bit feeling a little bit in mid

(01:12):
season. I haven't caught my secondwin yet, but I'm excited to we're
back here with you and to diginto some of those topics today. Well,
we're almost to the point that wecan get League's Cup fever. James
like, that's going to be happeningin about two or three weeks. So
well, actually it's less though Ithink it was to two weeks, almost
two weeks till Lionel Messi maxes uh. The debut with Shocking is gonna be

(01:34):
in the open day of Least Cup. It's almost like they planned it,
so that'll be something to watch.I'm interested to watch that train right,
not really development conversation to have,but I think that in TFC OK,
we're gonna have a lot of kidstalk about in that tournament because there's no
point playing any of the vuts,I don't think, because I don't know
what the hell that team is doing. But that's for a different kind of
podcast. We're talking less than twentyfour hours after Canada's elimination in the Gold

(02:00):
Cup. They fell in Penley's tothe US after what was a mad uh
sort of end of the game.An extra time we had like like eighty
nine minutes of nothing, some defendingI shouldn't say nothing, and then the
US scores a goal. I thinkmost of us either through the remote through
the TV or turn it off togo to bed at that point. However,

(02:22):
we had some action after that,didn't we end? We saw Canada
come back to tiet to take thelead and then sadly get the lead taken
went back from them and ultimately followingPenleys Hemleys, I'm you know, there's
a bit of a I think alot of Canadian fans, particularly they're also
TFC fans, haven't been of aversion to them, of a bit of

(02:43):
a sort of tick when they hearthe termamm made. But we'll drop that
and we're just gonna focus a littlebit more on how the younger players in
this tournament form for Canada. James, your overall take on the you have
thoughts of the tournament as a whole, people wish, but following that up
with what you thought some of theyounger guys that short Canada that Yeah,
it was a strange tournament. Youknow, Canada has been coming off that

(03:06):
high of appearing in their first WorldCup and in a long, long,
time, and and the question wassort of, you know what's next.
I think one of the larger themesthat we've seen playing out over this year
since since Qatar has been you know, Hurdman. Hurdman put a vision in
front of the guys, and thatvision was to make it to twenty twenty

(03:30):
two. That was sort of theend goal of phase one or Phase two,
or however you want to think ofJohn Hurdman's time in charge of the
men's national team. Then, anytimeyou have a goal and you reach the
end of that particular pathway, there'salways going to be a moment afterwards where
things kind of dip a little bit. I think that's where we find Canada
right now. I think the CONCOCAFNations League Final, you bring in your

(03:52):
a squad and it, you know, went over Panama was good enough that
the appearance in the final against theUS was was a about that considering everything
we've been through the past couple ofyears, and you know, it led
to some recriminations and some finger pointingfrom a bunch of people asking if Herban's
the right guy to take this teamforward, what's going on with Funzie?
How is how is he using him, how do you get the best out

(04:14):
of him? Um? And sowhen the decision was made to field a
B squad for this second for thisGold Cup this summer, I you know,
I think I expressed on this showthat I was a little bit disappointed
because I thought it was a goodchance to get that vibe going again,
to pick up that first piece ofsilverware in twenty three years or whatever it
is, and find, um,find a little bit of joy and what's

(04:36):
been a pretty pretty dowry year forCanadian soccer. And but you know,
you understand that, you know,footballers are people, and they can't play
a million games, and they can'tplay games all the time, and they
need some time in between seasons tostart out their own professional and personal lives.
So I think what this tournament camedown to for me is is that

(04:59):
as Canada was so focused on gettingto twenty twenty two, one of the
things that sort of got jettisoned alongthe way was doing the work that brings
around the next batch of players.You know, Herdman established his starting eleven,
his starting fifteen, his starting eighteenpretty pretty quickly into things. You
know, there were there were campsand there were chances for some of the

(05:20):
French guys to see some minutes,but as the game has got serious and
the stakes got higher, he reliedpretty much on the same core of players
and even on the same squad toa certain extent, and so this was
always going to be a chance toto take a breath and to see how
some of those new guys did.And you know, the group stage was
underwhelming. I think we saw wesaw, you know, a lot of

(05:43):
new guys make their get their firstcaps. I think that first game it
is five players but their first cossfor Ton, which is a little bit
crazy. We've seen some first goals, you know, Leam Miller gets his
first goal, Jaden Nelson gets hisfirst goal too. I think I think
I'll throw it back to you beforeI continue talking. But I'm sort of
separating out the wider squad of guyswho were who were role players a game

(06:04):
with this group, And I thoughtthere were three in Aliamed, Zach McGraw
and Moisbo and Bido who were whowere the focal point for Herdman in this
tournament in terms of guys who wereabsolutely fresh to the group, but who
became who became or the attempt wasmade to make them potentially core pieces at

(06:25):
least for this tournament, and thenwe'll see what talking is going forward.
Well yeah, I mean, look, we revisiting the conversation about whether it
was the right move or not togo B team, so to speak,
for this tournament. It's kind ofpoint was they made a choice. I
do agree with the general concept thatyou have to blood in some players at
some point, and there's only somany games on the calendar to do that.

(06:47):
M I would have reversed it ifI could have you look in an
ideal video game world, I wouldhave preferred to have the core group play
in the Gold Cup because I thinkit's it's a more valuable experience to go
through a tournament situation with each otherand you can build and and I do
believe that they could have won aGold Cup with the core groups that they
have right now and use the twonation leagues games too, because you got

(07:08):
too guarantee you give you if you'reunaware to play some of the kids.
It's a lesser tournament that I Imean, I think her been looked at
it as a situation that he wastwo wins away from winning a trophy,
and had he got the job donein the second game and the players got
the job done, then then maybewe're having a different conversation now. Um.
Yeah. Look, in terms ofthe players that went through you mentioned

(07:30):
the names there. I felt that, you know, particularly that final game
of the game that they were eliminatedagainst the US. Had all of the
games looked like that, I thinkI would have had a better feeling about
this tournament as a whole. Iwould have would have felt more confident that
that there was the opportunity to sortof building, to find some players from
this group that that you might buildforward. But it was a little concerned

(07:55):
about that group stage, particularly blowingthat lead at Demo at the home.
You've got to finish out a gamelike at it, and I guess maybe
you don't learn the experience, Youdon't learn how to do that if you
don't get the chance. And Idon't give I give Herman a lot of
criticism, a lot, I'll givehim some credit. He did once he
brought these kids in. He didlet them try to close that game out
and they didn't get a job thejob done in Toronto and ultimately losing those

(08:18):
two points. Was the difference betweenfirst and second, the difference between playing
Jamaica and playing the United States andthe quarter finals, and and perhaps the
difference of going out in a quarterversus moving on to a semifinal and perhaps
then having a chance to win thistournament. Once the US game took place,
they you know, he got histactics right that night. I mean,
I think it was pretty obvious whatthe tactics harding to be, but
he got them right nonetheless, andthe players on the pitch did perform.

(08:43):
Who do you think in terms ofthe young players, you mentioned some names
that are earlier, all those nameswho impressed you the most in this tournament.
I think of the three that werethe focal points that I mentioned,
amedin, Girl and boldto you know, you got to say that Aliamed was
a guy who who came to thisterm, I mean lad and unknown.
You know, we'd seen what hewas capable up with Vancouver but a season

(09:03):
and last season. But you alwayswonder how a player is going to take
to the international stage. And youknow, once they pull that red shirt
on, are they are they goingto rise to the occasion. And I
think it would be fair to saythat Eliab has probably been one of Canada's
players at this tournament. He wasexcellent and energetic in that first game against
Guadaloupe, and every other time we'veseen him out there, he's been impactful.

(09:28):
It wavered a little bit here andthere. He had stretches in games
where he wasn't quite as effective,but I mean on the whole, he's
probably the guy who who gets themost headlines when you start bringing guys back
in, the guys who were notavailable for this tournament. Is there a
space for him on the field oron the bench. I think that's where
where you sort of have to makea split in this conversation, because I

(09:50):
think the open positions on the firstteam has got to be coming around the
back line and there. I thoughthow Zach McGraw looked fine. He didn't
exactly He didn't scream out, heyI'm here, I've arrived, I'm ready
to be a starter for this teamthe way that you you know, you
don't expect the guy to hit theground running all the time. He had

(10:11):
some nervy moments. He looked alittle bit, a little bit like still
a young player learning the game,especially especially compared to Stephen Victoria, who's
a wily old veteran fox that knowsall the tricks of trade. But that
back line is going to be thequestion for Canada heading into twenty twenty six.
And we've got some interesting, reallyyoung players further down on the pipeline,

(10:31):
but there's a bit of a gap. And so I liked what I
saw from a girl up, butI don't know that i'd be comfortable with
him stepping in for Victoria, rightlike, immediately, right now, Yeah,
you nailed it there, mad Ithink that a lot of people have
talked about how good he looked inthis tournament, but you can't help but
came down right leaving the number onthe back of his on his back,

(10:54):
And I told you what the mainroadblock there is for him, right like,
I mean, you've got some players, some pretty significant players he's got
to overcome to get his spot onthat pitch or play out a position to
make the national team when the fullfirst choice is there. That's said,
if Canada's playing a lot of gamesin the Nations League, in particularly against
those Island nations, then I don'tthink anyone's going to be too upset if

(11:15):
he comes in and plays that ruleto allow those guys to stay back in
Europe, which is also important.It's really important to develop that den so
you don't have to rely so muchon the same core group. That's a
something that Canada hasn't really had theluxury of doing the past because we haven't
the ability to. You look atthe US, they're they're the favorite to
win this tournament with you know,their second squad, and we would all

(11:37):
love to be at that point.We're not so so, you know,
developing guys like that is particularly goodwho we didn't see a lot of the
really young guys of this restant.Unfortunately, we're not going to see a
lot of chance for them to playmoving forward. In case you're under where
there is no Olympic qualifying like theywould have had in the past, that
was a victim, likely of COVID. Perhaps moving forward they'll eliminate this.

(11:58):
They qualified through the under twenty process, which means we're already out because as
you well know, Canada doesn't dowell. Do you have a twenty level?
We talked about this looking on ourcouch for our thoughts on that.
Anyway, we're out of that herand it so so nothing to play for
there no no movement forward. ButRussell Row Nelson guys like that. We
didn't see a lot of them,well, we did see some of them

(12:18):
in the tournament. What were yourthoughts on on those two, the youngest
two guys in the roster, andwhether or not they're gonna have much of
a chance to the feature moving forward. I mean, Russell Roe has impressed
me ever since I saw him tearup MLS Next Row with Columbus's second team
last season. And and you alwayswonder, this is something I probably mentioned

(12:39):
a thousand times already through are fifteentwenty odd episodes here, But me,
the question is always how does aplayer do when he's thrown into that next
level? You know, does hefind a way to play his game?
Does he find a way to havean impact during the game. And of
course Jason's you know, his firsthis first introduction that their own goal scored

(13:01):
against Badloop is definitely not the waythat he would have liked to announce himself
on this stage. But every timewe've seen him out there, he's been
a guy who plays the same waythat he does with his club team,
and that's he's a dangerous for alreadygets himself in those positions. He was
so close to scoring that goal andextra time against the US the other night
that that's what I wanted to seefrom him, and so I have a

(13:24):
lot of time for him going forward. I'm curious how John's gonna work him
into the group, but the samethe same problem of who are you just
placing there in the biggest matches comesabout for a young attacker like that.
I was quite impressed with Jaden Nelson. I really wanted to see a lot
more of him. He struggled attimes with TFC last year. They to

(13:46):
see to be as productive in thatfinal flad to make that final decision as
I would have liked to have seen. And I've been able to catch a
game or two of his over inNorway, and it seems like something has
clicked for him in the last sixmonths. So I was really expecting he
was a late call up to thegroup, if I'm not mistaken, and
I was hoping to see a lotmore. I was hoping to see him

(14:07):
play at a much bigger role thanin this group. I think I think
one of the things that that struckme with with not so much the players
as it was sort of the reaptionto the new guys coming in was that,
you know, Mois Bombido, he'stwenty four, but he's he's like
five games into his into his professionalcareer. You know, he was just

(14:30):
drafted by Colorado this season and youknow, played his made his first team
debut like a month before his nationalteam call up, and then a month
later he's making he's getting his firstcap in toronot the national team. You
know Ali Amed he's twenty two.He's got you know a couple of years
in the White Camp system, butthis is his first year proper in MLS
and he's got you know, fivegames, nine appearances under his belt kind

(14:52):
of thing. And Zach McGraw hasbeen in MLS for four years, but
he only just established himself as astarter and pass a year and on offers.
So and I think Canadian fans havegotten used to to the new guy
on the scene being some undiscovered gemthat we've never heard of before, whether
it's it's Mel Coney or Alister Johnsonor Steph In Eustachio. Those were some
of the big games that came onthe scene through this last cycle that maybe

(15:16):
we needed to have more sensible expectationsof what some of these young guys can
offer. And you know, Ithought Jacob Schaffelberg looked good. I wanted
to see if the tour you geta run out there, dumb the tour
had a bit of a rough outingin his couple of appearances. But um,
this is all just about for me. This is all just about putting
this level and this experience in frontof the guests so they can absorb it

(15:39):
and then the next time they're calledup they're more and more ready for it.
Yeah, you mentioned a lot ofplayers. The players that we have
mentioned that have good tournaments, oftenthey have that crossover of their in area
strength. Already, I didn't hearanother Alister Johnson emerge in this tournament.
That's that, that's really who weneed to emerge. Again. I always
used Alister Johnson as my main reasonwhy Canada was going to a World Cup

(16:00):
the last time, not to saythat he was the key player and in
a literal sense, but kind ofthat diti sense, in the sense that
we needed, um, you know, central offenders to emerge, and it
came kind of out of the bluefor a lot of people. So Hopefully
someone like that's out there. Butin the meantime, you know, we
can be a little bit up.This conversation is making me a little bit
happier about the Gold Cup, havinga little bit more reasonable reaction to it.

(16:22):
I wanted to see Canada win somethingthis summer. I am really worried
about what happens next. Like tome, this was almost you know that
any Nation's league final was the endof that cycle in a lot of ways,
like they used the same guy asthey tried to win something that kind
of starting back then, and itkind of you know, this merge into
this this Gold Cup with the youngerplayers sort of signified a true break from

(16:45):
that group that took us on thatmagical journey they ended up in Qatar,
and now you know, the realwork begins. To get to twenty six
no qualifying, they do have toget qualified to a Copa America. Hopefully
they get to play in that tournament. It's going to be an absolute disaster
if they don't, so let's notthink of it in that way. But
we had to get through the falland we you know, there's lots of

(17:06):
questions about the CSA. I'm ona podcast tomorrow talking about the CSA potentially,
you know, declared bankruptcy. Ithink that's a play, to be
honest. Spoiler if you're listening tothat podcast later, I'll will spress out
in greater terms tomorrow on that show. But nonetheless, we don't know whether
there's going to be friendlies. Wedon't know whether there's going to be opportunities
for these young players to get intocamps. And and if you don't play
games, you don't have camps,then you don't have an opportunity to develop

(17:27):
that depth. It's going to takeit to another level to build that that
used to meet teams forward, toget under twenty groups, to get under
fifteen, under eighteen, under nineteengroups out there playing. We need money.
We need to CSA to get itsact together to do that stuff.
But I don't know, James.It's it's kind of disheartening when you start
thinking it right in that way.But in terms of the players we saw

(17:48):
on the pitch, I mean,you can't fault the effort that all of
them did, whether they're young ornot. In that quarterfinal against the US,
Mistakes were made that got them inthe position that they were elimited.
At the car Final. But itis what it is, all right before
we unless you have any final thoughtson the Gold Cup, I was going
to justually talk about the women's Roster'snot a lot of talk from the development

(18:08):
standpoint, But to any final thoughtsin the Gold Cup, yeah, I
think I think I just sort ofadd that maybe to put some context there
and how I'm thinking about this GoldCup is a lot of the work that
Canada will have accomplished by getting thesenew guys in is the work that it
seemed like the United States does duringtheir winter camps, you know. And
it's a chance for all these newfaces to come in and strengthen both the

(18:33):
tactical identity and the cultural element thatHerdman is so strong on, even those
moments in between the matches, andyou know, the Gold Cups always kind
of crazy, and I was neverunderstand why Canada played one game in Toronto
and then went to Houston for theirnext two. But Canada doesn't have the
opportunity to get these guys involved andto begin that learning process of, for

(18:56):
lack of a better term, indoctrinatingthem into the and it a soccer way,
and so that has to happen inthe middle of these competitions. You
have to you sort of have topull a double duty with that. And
if how I will feel about thisGold Cup in the longer term, we'll
play out in the next six twelve, eighteen months, two years, something

(19:17):
like that, we'll see it.I think I understand everyone's reaction to being
disappointed about it. I wanted tosee a little bit more myself. But
we won't know the fruits of thislabor for a little bit of time.
Still. Yeah, final final thought, this isn't really I guess it's a
development topic in the sense that it'sa development of the national team. But
a lot of people played to alack of results and say that that's going

(19:41):
to suffer. It's going to makeit more difficult to attract to old nationals.
Look, the dual national conversation isa bit of a fool's errand to
get into the conversations about that.If you can find them and they can
help, then you bring them in. Then here's the thing. We're going
to be playing in the twenty twentysix World Cups. So that's account you
have, regardless of like the worldranking is. So I wouldn't worry about

(20:02):
the results and their impact on dualnationals and if there's something out there,
you know, another a staque offense, now I'd be happy to have them
on. But let's worry about whatwe can control, and that's the players
that we're going to develop, whichis the topic of this conversation. All
right, Um, we're gonna justwe want to address the women's World Cup
roster. But as we said,we're a development show and there's just not

(20:25):
a lot of players on this rosterthat you can call development on games it
is. I would say I'd calledthe women's national team for closely for many
years. This is the most inprime roster I've ever seen a lot of
can in the past. A lotof World Cup rosters for Canada were very
sort of know they were missing themiddle a lot of times. He had
a lot of some older players andhe had real young players. So this

(20:48):
is the oldest team I can rememberin the sense of a World Cup roster
across the board, and a lotof these guys, these players are like
twenty seven, twenty eight, twentynine, Christian Claire's forty. But by
the most part, you have playersthat are right in their prime, so
they're you know, this is theirchance to shine. There were a couple
of younger players named to this.I think the one that surprised most people
was Olivia Smith getting the call Semielwould you she's an American dual national that

(21:15):
that has chose Canada to make fieldthey're there? I did she would got
a call as well. Both ofthose are teenagers and only two players in
this roster that are you know,in the development standpoint, they're amateur players.
I can't see either one of themfeaturing a lot in this tournament.
Um, but it's good that you'regoing to have a good bit of a
run out there, get to integratewith a group that is pretty together.

(21:41):
I don't know what to think ina general way about this Women's World Cup.
I was pretty high on their chancesat the start of the year.
The draw isn't bad. If theywin the group, they have a barely
favorable route to a semifinal. Theyhave to beat a France probably in the
quarterfinals to get their team like Austriain the in the in the run of

(22:02):
sixteen, so it's it's a it'sa root that you could get through if
you lose the group. You're you'relooking in England and around a sixteen match.
That's going to be tough, butbut it's there for them if they
perform. I don't know, James, any thoughts on the two young players
or the World Cup in the hallbefore we take a quick break and talk
some League one director show no.I think I agree with you pretty much
that the two youngest players are unlikelyto see a ton of action. I

(22:27):
think if if you get a chance, you should look up the video that
Canada Soccer put out of Olivias findingout from bad Priestman that she's going to
be named to the squad. Itdoing those things that you know, even
warms the jaded heart of of anold soccer scrid like myself. Um.
I think that point that you madeabout this not being this being a more

(22:51):
complete squad, it speaks speaks somewhatto the professionalization of the women's game that
we've seen in the last couple ofyears. I mean, I was looking
at the roster and the only otherU twenty three players are Julia Grosso,
Jade Rivere and Jordan Hydemer and they'veall you know, Julia's a full full
fledged pro at Juventus jades with ManchesterUnited and she she had a bit of

(23:14):
a difficult season this past year,but there's big things ahead of her.
And Jordan Hydemer was at PSG andYe actually didn't play as much as you
might have liked, but she's beendoing good things on her loan back to
the end of USL late and youknow, has a lot of football left
ahead of her as well. Andso for Canada to have the options even
with all the injury absences that havesort of been enforced on the side is

(23:37):
fascinating. It's a fascinating time forthe women's game right now and I'm really
curious to see what Bev can dowith this group. We saw a little
bit the distraction of everything that's goingon in the background percolating side at the
She Believes Cup, and they haven'thad a chance to get on the field
very much this year. I thinkI think I was looking at it.

(23:59):
They've played format this year and whereyou know, getting towards the middle of
July August, and that's not alot of time to put the frustrations of
federation stuff and association stuff and contracts, and there haven't been opportunities for them
to put that to the side andto just go ahead and play. And
you hope that going to Australia givesthem a real good chance to put that

(24:23):
to the side and just come togetheras a group and see what they can
do. So I'm really excited tosee to see how this all plays down.
As I said, it's it's apossible nice path to the semifinal if
they can find their way out ofthe group in first place. Second,
running into England, who they'll havea warm up friendly against behind closed doors
this week, could throw a bitof a spanner in those works. But

(24:47):
I'm hoping that um that it doesn't. Yeah, um fight a daily podcast
still you wouldn't hurt in this opinionalready, But I'm not. It's not
for me to tell the women howto fight their fight, but I would
suggest that they should take some motivationfrom what the US women did when they
were in their gender quality fight,and that's too to put a marker down

(25:10):
on the field. Is the bestpath forward for them if they can get
together as a group and find motivationinternally from from the struggles they've had.
And look, again, it's notnot my fight, but if they could
and put that marker down and reallyprove their worth with the World Cup to
remember, then they're gonna have albthe burdening power at that point. Lots

(25:30):
to talk about with that, James. I wish I did have a daily
podcast some guys, but I alsodon't have time. Speaking of time,
We're gonna take a quick break.I'm gonna come back. We're gonna wrap
the show up with lot'll talk aboutthe League one promotion relegation at battle.
We're gonna look at the teams involved, maybe set up a further conversation next
week. Can get James opinion onpromotion and relegation and welcome back to next

(25:59):
pod. You told me off airis just the start way, Darren,
I'm throwing out the bust already.You don't like prom what are you?
Why do you hate the fun?Why do I hate fun? It's not
that I hate fun, and it'snot that I I too do not appreciate
the drama that that promotion and relegationbrings to the rest of the table.

(26:22):
When when a season gets to thesharp end, you know, like we've
all we've all sat around and watchedthose matched A matched A male virus between
Blackburn and Burnley to see who's goingto scrape into seventeenth place and enjoyed it,
and yeah, that drama is amazing. But there's two things that that
rubbed me the wrong way about it, or not even rubbed me the wrong

(26:44):
way about it. There are tworeasons why I don't see it as feasible
for the North American landscape, right, you know. The first one is
that I don't know that if Europewere to start over from at that they
would do it. And the reason, you know, we keep seeing big
clubs doing everything they can possibly doto get out of the league systems as

(27:07):
they are currently structured over there,and there's an inherent instability in it that
ass much as it fosters that competitionand that entertainment that we see the number
of clubs that we have seen,not just big clubs, but clubs lower
down the leagues that we have seenenter into financial difficulties, go out of
business, have to rebrand themselves assomething else. In the past ten,

(27:27):
fifteen, twenty years that I've beensort of keeping an eye on this stuff
is massive and the headlines all goto, oh, this happened on the
final day of the season, butnobody talks about the other side of that
coin being and this club that's beenaround for a hundred years no longer exists,
and so there's with instability comes thatentertainment and excitement, And I wonder

(27:55):
where the trade off is and howcomfortable we should be with that once we
factor in what the bad side ofthat deal is. And then if we
look at the North American landscape,I think what and what what's happening in
League one Ontario is a little bitof a different situation. I have some
different thoughts on that, but Idon't know that the landscape here can can

(28:18):
really support a team that's going tolike, let's talk about an MLS club
for example, Like let's say youbuy into the league with an expansion fee
of fifty million dollars. Now that'snot what the expansion fees are anymore,
but let's just use that as anexample, right, and then you have
to come up with the funds tobuild a stadium and to build out the

(28:38):
club side of it, and todo all the things that make you capable
of being an MLS team. UMgranted, you you more often than not
get some government help when it comesto the financing a stadium and all that
sort of stuff. Um, butthere is no investor on the planet that
would invest that hundred million dollars ifthere was the possibility that in a year

(29:00):
or two or three they would dropdown the leagues. And it's not just
the effect that that has on therevenues of the team, but it's the
effect that that has on the valueof the team. Like, I don't
put a lot of stock in theForbes numbers when it comes to the evaluation
of clubs because we don't see themchanging hands very often. So it's a
little bit of you can say somethingis worth whatever you want to say it's

(29:25):
worth, it's only when somebody hasto come around and buy it that it's
actually worth that thing. So Ithe worry that I have, and like,
don't get me wrong, I wouldlove to see how a team with
a really good fan base managed toserve live relegation, Like does Seattle get
crowds of forty thousand every week ifthey're playing in MLS two? How does
how does TFC fair? You know, throughout the struggles of this season,

(29:49):
they've been they've been pretty steady aboutthat. Twenty seven twenty eight thousand market
in pairs of attendance. How doesthat fair if they're in a second division.
Like you and I both know thereare a core group of ten to
twelve thousand people that I'll be thereeven when they're playing FC Dallas on a
Tuesday afternoon because the game before Igot canceled because of a tornado ris or
whatever it was. Yeah, Iwas there. I was there. I

(30:12):
was eating the schtzel from the foodbuilding. It wasn't twelve thousand. I
think it was about very twelve hundredat the most. But now we've also
seen those con CAF Champions League nightswhere it's part of the season ticket package
and you struggle to get ten thousandpeople to come up because they don't understand
what the competition is anymore. SoI would love to see our team actually

(30:33):
navigated that. But I don't knowthat. I don't know that the rate
of growth that we've seen in NorthAmerican soccer from where MLS was twenty years
ago to where it is now issustainable if the people who are putting the
money up to make that happen haveto worry about the evaluation of their club
going down and So that's my bigthat's my big concern with the die hard

(31:00):
pro round people is that we've we'vewe have a long history in this part
of the world of getting really excitedin something and going really big with it
and it being the hot thing fora year or five years or ten years,
and then the shine wears off andwe don't want something that's just made

(31:22):
for five years. We want somethingthat's going to last forever. And you
can't you can't risk the rug gettingpulled out from people in order to add
some extra entertainment to the last coupleof months of the season. For me,
we need stability, We need moreclubs. Will there come a day
where every Canadian city with more thanfifty thousand people has a football club that's

(31:45):
sustained by the heartfelt passions of thelocal populace, and whether they are playing
in the Canadian Premier League, PremierLeague or in the Canadian Premier League,
believe three they are packing twelve thousandto containing people through those gates weekend weekend
and demanding that their team is onTV every week. Maybe maybe one day
will get there, But for rightnow and for where the game is here,

(32:08):
and for what this country needs todo to each towards that future.
I just don't see how how itis feasible, How does things currently stand.
I'm not going to more people withmy opinion because I've expressed it many
many times in the hospital. I'llquickly summarize it as this. People often

(32:28):
talk about the glory of promotion.They rarely think about the reality of relegation
and what that means for clubs.And when you're talking about it from an
a Major League Soccer perspective, TFCdoesn't exist if there's relegation in two thousand
and seven, They don't we rememberthe links crowds. Well, maybe we
don't because there was no one there. And if TFC had gone down within

(32:52):
a year or two of having thatMLS experience, I don't Just nothing happens,
like the build isn't there. Whatyou say is right. The investment
does not happen with a guaranteed natureof a first division soccer And that's because
we operate within a North American sportingculture here, and the North American sporting
culture does not have prorell as partof its institution, as part of its

(33:16):
history. It's part of the sportshistory. It's a European thing. Just
in the same way, if youtry to put a closed league in Europe,
people would revolt as they did withthe Super League. Yeah, but
it just doesn't happen. You nailedit on. They the little owners of

(33:38):
it there, would dearly love toclose that league, to close that league
off, to have a super League. And you know, the more American
owners to get over into the PremierLeague, the more likely that is.
That one day happened. Many peoplesmarter than I have said it were more
likely to see a closed Europe thana than an open North America in our

(33:59):
lifetime. I hate to crap onyour parade, folks, but I don't
see it happening. However, toget off that topic into a development topic,
into a topic more League one Ontariofor a second. It's different down
here, and that's because it hasa different goal. I'm going to give
you the the what's happening, likethe battle. I'm not going to read
everything out of the table, butI'll tell you sort of the teams that

(34:21):
are around there, and look atsome highlights of the table that I'm looking
at right now in a second.But to me, the most important thing
that's happening with this promotion and relegation. And you know his planned that he
outlined on our show two weeks agois that it's trying to sort these teams
into where they belong so that theycan have competitive games, so that they
can develop their players in an environmentthat is most appropriate Port Dot club.

(34:45):
This is part of a sorting exercisemore than it is an entertainment exercise.
The reality is League one in Tariodoesn't get the attendance out there to warrant
them making decisions that are entertainment based. You'd love to see more people support
and I hope that they do.But this is a development and this is
about what's getting these clubs in theirright place so that they can fight at
the level that is appropriate for themand have the biggest benefit out of the

(35:08):
league that they're in. And that'sjust as important to get teams that naturally
belong at a lead two level inthat three level system that you know talks
about as it is to you know, to have your Vaughan's competing for a
championship and and you know other teamsthat might be in that middle ground that
for them a fight to stay inthe top league is what they might be

(35:29):
most benefiting from. So it isa bit different. Before I take a
look at the teams around this list, and we're gonna have a further conversation
about this next week. We're gonnalook to get a guest in to talk
about it a bit more before wedo that, and then before I just
you know, to stop me fromtalking further, James, I'm going to
ask you what your thoughts, whatyour differentiator is when it comes to League
One. You mentioned you had onea minute ago. Yeah, that's that's

(35:52):
basically exactly what it was is.It's a it's a streamlining it's a streamlining
process, it's a concentration process.And more, it is necessarily a I
don't know what the word here.It's not a it's not a competition thing,
it's not a it's not an entertainingthing. As you said, this
is more about making sure that thattop two of clubs is providing the right

(36:16):
challenge for the players in those environments. And you know, one of the
things that we're probably going to seeas this plays out is that the players
who do really well in the seconddivision are going to find themselves in those
first division teams. The season afteror a season or two later. And
one of the things that that getstalked about a lot when it comes to
North American academy systems. And oneof the things that you know that Greg

(36:38):
then he talked about as being partof why Toronto FC wanted to get involved
in the USSTA and now MLS nextwas weekend week out. They could guarantee
that their players were facing a moremaybe a more consistent and a more quality

(36:59):
opponent week can we get by travelingto play those teams versus staying and what
league Ontario was back in those days? And you know that the old cliche
is that iron sharpens iron, andyou want to have the best talent playing
against the best talent in order toreally advance those players up the development pathway.

(37:19):
And so having a league where thereare twenty four teams and maybe let's
say in twenty four teams, you'relooking at three hundred, four hundred players,
whatever it is, how many doesthe league? Does the quality of
each game get better? If youhave a league of ten teams and then
there's only two hundred players there,it's a sorting effect and for a league

(37:42):
that's you know that I think weall hope becomes the proving ground for guys
who are sixteen to twenty one tothen move on to the CPL, or
to be spotted at a younger ageand go on to the CPL. You
really want to get your best playersplaying against the best competition they can have,
week in week out. So maybethat's more manageable in a twelve team
league than it is in a twentytwo team league. And so I I'm

(38:06):
with you. I see this asmore of a sorting process than it is
about adding some drama to the backend of the season. And it allows
teams to play at the level thatthey're comfortable with, whether it's the amount
of investment that they're able to makeany whether it's the facilities that they have
it. And the one thing thatI will always give credit to promotion and
relegation for is that just because thingsare a certain way today doesn't mean that

(38:30):
they're going to be that way tomorrow. And a closed league allows people to
get comfortable, and it allows peopleto get lazy, and it leaves good
work that's being done outside outside.And so if a club comes along and
they prove themselves in that reserve leagueand then they move up to league too,
and then they move up to Leagueone. I haven't committed to memory

(38:51):
the names. I'm sure it's Ithink there's a championship and a Premiership and
all those things in there that Iwill get sorted out before too long.
It allows the opportunity that the statusgoal of today is not always going to
be what's best for development tomorrow.And that's really what we're all talking about
here is finding ways to give youngplayers a chance to continue their development and

(39:14):
see what the future holds on.Yeah, look, I think this is
going to be great for leaguing onTARA. I think it's going to be
great at the top where you're you'regoing to have a league time teams or
twelve teams that are going to beknowing and teams that did clubs that really
have a sort of a brand already. I think we're starting to see it.
You look like clubs like Vaughn Woodbridge. These are well known, long

(39:37):
established clubs in the GTA that thatreally have produced great talente over the years
and they backing that up with theresults. And you know, I could
see four or five years down theroad if the Woodbridge strikers are struggling against
relegation. That's going to be astory and on Tara soccer circles, and
that's something that does benefit the game. But as we said, it's not

(39:57):
all about the entertainment. We hopewe get some entertainment out of it,
all right, As I said,we'll have another we'll have an expert on
next week to talk a little bit, but let's have a quick look.
We'll have a look in the sensethat I'm going to explain it to you
of sort of what we're looking atright now in the relegation zone. The
truth is that there's not a bigbattle for the relegation spots. The teams
that are going to stay up aremostly established at this point with a month

(40:19):
to go, month and a halfleft in the season. We'll start with
the women's division, and there's nineteenteams competing in the women's division in League
one Ontario. Ten are going tostay out. The bottom nine we'll go
down. Really realistically, there arethree, maybe four teams that are competing
with three of those four are goingdown in one that's kind of on the

(40:40):
bubble. So I would say anyoneabove ninth and office is pretty safe right
now. Those nine teams are NorthMississauga. This is an ascending order,
so ninth place in North Mississauga,Electric City, Simple County, rovers I
SC London, North Toronto, NightrosAlliance, United woodbrid Strikers, NBC Ontario
and Von Missouri, which is thepower of league going on both demands.

(41:00):
In the women's side, that's yourteams that are pretty much safe right now.
Forty four points in ninth place.The cutoff is thirty six point two
five. As Dino explained, seventyfive percent of your points from last year
account towards this table, with onehundred percent of this year's points counting towards
the table with a month Pathholic toplay Derby is the team on tent at

(41:21):
thirty six point two five. Theyare competing with Oakfield, Blue Devils,
Guelph Union and Saint Cathrew. RomoWolves are sort of an encumcy I should
put in there as well at thirtytwo, thirty three, thirty five,
thirty five, so they're kind ofin that mix, so you have a
bit of a battle there at thebottom. Blue Devils is a team that
might surprise a few people there thatthat's attached to Oakfield, the largest club

(41:43):
in terms of numbers of the registeredplayers in the country. Their men's team,
will mention in a bit is quitesuccessful, so if they go down
that well be you know, abit of a surprise, but that certainly
isn't guaranteed yet. They're they're onlya point behind with some games to play.
We'll bring some players in to talkabout there tomorrow. And the men's
side of this look the top ofthis table are defending champion Golf uniteds and

(42:07):
third or Blue Devils. I justmentioned them there in second and Vanassuri,
which has been the dominant force withinLeague One and Tarier for the past few
years. They are safe in firstby well, they're not. They're only
two half of a point at afirst in this table, but some games
at hand, but they're safe forthe drop for sure. It's even less
of a battle for the drop.On the men's side, there's really only

(42:29):
two teams involved. It's Burlington andHamilton's United. They are a point apart
with some games to play, asI said, and then the next team
back up after them is nine points. So it's kind of worked out that
these teams have already sorted themselves,and it looks like we have a bit
of a a self identifier and thatwill be better, i think for the
teams that are below them next yearto be competing for a championship and for

(42:52):
promotion, to try and prove themselvesat a level that makes more sense for
them and allows those teams involve ofAnd I'll quickly list them. These are
the teams that look pretty safe.Vonassouri, Blue Devils, GWELP, United,
Simple County Rovers Alliance United North Torno, Nitros, Scare Polsy, which
I think that's how it said.That team was not in the league when
I was there, and I don'tknow quite how to pronounce them, so

(43:13):
I apologize. Someone will correct me, I'm sure in the comments. Broth
Stars, Electric City and Sigma withWoodbridge in eleventh place than Burlington and twelfth
the last team that would stay upright now, interesting thought you had their
The TFCJFC three won the first everLeague one Ontario championship and they were a

(43:35):
pretty dominant team with some you know, great players on a mark. Anthony
k was on that team. It'sprobably the most prominent player of that that
has emerged from a mobile Buley wastheir leading score had to get a Mobile
Buley reference in um. That wasa great team and they did pull out
soon after. They didn't do verywell in the next year. I think
they put a younger group in havingexperience to the ability to dominate that league.

(43:55):
I've always been curious where they wouldstock up and Elague one Ontario.
Now this is a bit of adifferent situation. I think that it could
have this where you could slot aTFC three into the top division, that
it might be a bit more ofan interesting proposition for moving forward. They're
pretty committed to the USDF right now, but but that is an interesting tootics

(44:16):
Papa, Yeah, I mean,as long as I've been keeping an eye
on what's been going on, andthey kind made the landscape has been shifting,
and it's it's not uncommon for themto play a lot of guys that
are on their age for the forthe respective agents. The overwhelming takeaway that

(44:37):
I took from that that whole LeagueOne experience and then deciding to go a
different route was just that they neededthey needed to be sure that for it's
it's a maximization thing. It's thatpoint that I was going back too earlier
of you want your players to reallytest your players and to really spur them
on. They need to be facingchallenges every week, and League One Ontario

(45:00):
was too inconsistent of the landscape backin those days. Now now, once
promotion relegation sorts itself out, ifthere's a real, a real build up
in that first division in terms ofthe quality that we can see there.
But then too, the landscape isalways going to be changing, Like is
League one going to go full onU twenty one or you twenty three,

(45:23):
or are we still going to havethe occasional older journeyman who's applying their trade
there or not that there's anything wrongwith that, but it all just comes
down to what the vision of theleague is. And I would love to
sit down with the academy coaches andfind out if there would be a way
for them to have a presence there, because I think there is some value

(45:44):
in having that local presence on thelocal soccer scene. And maybe it's not
the same group that competes weekend weekout, but you know, maybe you're
taking you're taking whoever is not playingfor this team. They probably have enough
teams, if I'm putting honest wherethe movement up and down is pretty well
covered. If I look at aguy like Thozara Stefanovitch, who who made

(46:05):
his first team debut on a shortterm contract this past week, two weeks
ago, my brains a little bitfive. It's been a busy couple of
weeks. He played with the Useventeen Canadian team. He moved up to
MLS Next Pro this season and playedthere as a sixteen year old for a
lot of the season. Then whenthe GA Cup came around, he went

(46:27):
with TFC's U seventeen group to theGA Cup, and now and then he
gets called to the first team andmakes his first team debut. So you
want that little bit of flexibility foryour young players. You want to say,
Okay, this this U fifteen isdoing really well at the moment,
should he be playing with the Useventeen group just to see how he does
against players that are a little bitmore physical, a little bit faster,

(46:50):
where the games are different than whathe's challenged within his age group. And
so you know, it's it's possiblethat we could work something out that.
As I said, I think itwould be an interesting to have that upper
tier expression of the of the game, of the professional game have a presence
in League going Ontario. I'm sureit would be the game on the calendar
that every single one of those clubscircles. But we'll have to wait and

(47:14):
see. There's been a lot ofmovement in the past couple of years,
and you don't want to rule anythingout, but I think I think MLS
next. We're still waiting to seehow the fruits of that sort of come
about in the next five to tenyears. But if I learned anything in
this game, it's never rule anythingout. Yeah, here's a thought I
would wonder, once the top divisionof THEE won to Terry's established, whether

(47:37):
there might be room for loans ofa TFC prospect to give him a little
bit of an opportunity to compete fora championship with a team that has some
older players, some guys that arein college that are pushing him a little
bit, you know, when you'reat the top of the table. That's
something I would wonder as I'm notsure what the Tariffs opp Association rules on

(47:57):
on bline players are. I'd haveto look into that. But that was
just toff they talk about me.Yeah, jameson. All right, as
I said, we're gonna have abit of a deeper conversation. We're gonna
bring a guest in next week totalk about the League one relegation promotion battle,
and you know, let let theexperts talk a little bit more than
James and I. All right,that's gonna be yet for us today.
I do appreciate everyone listening as always, and we look forward to talking to

(48:17):
you again this time next week.Congratulations on finding the hidden tracks little pieces

(48:46):
of stuff that happened in the developmentworld this week. Low Hello, and

(49:10):
welcome to the latest edition of HiddenTracks here on next pod. First three
clips we have for you today arefrom Canada's two to drug inst Guadaloupe at
v. Moore Field to open theGold Cup a couple of weeks ago.
Aliyahmed spoke after the match about integratinginto the Canada squad for his first campus,

(49:30):
first his first start, his firstcap. Moist Bombido touched on being
willing to play anywhere for the men'snational team. He's seen a lot of
action in midfield and he's he's comealong as more of a defender, so
that was a new experience for himand Zach McGraw talked about soaking up the
lessons from his more experienced teammates andall these clips are courtesy of Canada Soccer.

(50:00):
Remaining clips are all thanks to TorontoFC. Earlier that same day,
before Canada began their Gold Cup journey, Toronto made a coaching change, with
Terry Dunfield announced as the interim headcoach. I haven't spent the last seven
years and the TFC Academy. Dunfieldspoke about some of the mentorship he had
over that time and coach education isanother important development aspect that Canada needs to

(50:23):
step up its game with and howthat helped ready him for this next step
in his coaching career. And healso talked about the pipeline of talent here
in Toronto. We got a glimpseof that talent almost immediately as Lazarre Stefanovitch
made his first team debut on ashort term agreement, having just signed an

(50:45):
MLS Next Pro contract with TFC twoearlier in the day. Sixteen year old
center back has been a stalwart forTFC two. I caught up with Las
after his appearance for Susrael Salt Lakeand asked him how he's taking in what's
been a busy year for him.Begin with MLS Next with Toronto's U seventeen
side, went to the CALF Championshipswith Canada's U seventeens, seen a lot

(51:08):
of action in MLS Next Pro,and finally made his debut at BEMO Field.
And finally, another TFC two prospecthas made his first team debut in
recent weeks, Jesus Patise. He'snot an academy guy and like so many
of the players that we talk about, but he joined the club in the

(51:29):
off season from Rochester FC and hasbeen a real spark plug this year for
TFC two. He came on awayto Orlando at halftime and brought some real
energy, some some of that forwarddrive we've seen so much in MLS Next
Pro, and he did the sameagainst Saint Louis and I was able to
catch up with Patise and he confirmedsomething that we suspected here at Next Pot

(51:49):
that one of the draws to thesesecond teams at MLS clubs is that you're
that much closer to your goal