NextPod Soccer Podcast for September 6

In a special Labour Day Weekend edition of the podcast, Duane and James are joined by Canada Soccer's head of referees to talk about the development of officials. The boys also touch on the League1 Ontario final (next week's show will be all in on a season review), CanW17 qualifying and Metropolitain University of Toronto forfeiting games because of suggested hazing.

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
Welcome to Next Pod, your weeklylook at North American soccer prospects and l's
next Broke campl M beyond Lease.Are your host Dwayne Roland and James Grassy,

(00:26):
and welcome to Next Pod. Alittle later this week because it's Labor
Day. Labor Day weekend, James, I was in Muskoka all weekend,
had a lovely time saucing deer,had some ice cream, rolled my bicycle
along ways. I had more icecream. I really like ice cream.
James, how was your long weekend? What's a little weekend, Dwayne,

(00:49):
There's no there's no vacations in soccerman, what are you talking about?
I was, I was watching MLSaction. I was keeping it on MLS
Next Spring. I was heading tothe Ontario Soccer Center, which was thankfully
I did not have to rely onpublic transit to get too because it takes
me about two hours to get upto Vaughan from from where I am in
Toronto. And so another busy weekendof soccer action. And now I'm sitting

(01:14):
in my office. I got allmy fans off so we don't have any
background noise. So I'm a littlebit hot in this season, a little
warm spell that we're having. Butyeah, I'm glad you had a lovely
long weekend and I like a screamedtoo. Yeah, this is the year
I decided to take off of coveringthem less on a daily basis, So
I'm enjoying it, but might bechanging that soon. But anyway, that's

(01:38):
let's get into the show, James. It was the League one on Tario
final this week. As you mentioned, we're going to do a special League
one Ontario rap show next week.I'm gonna have some interviews on. We're
gonna talk the game up right,We're gonna we're gonna give you a full,
full coverage of a league that wouldpay a lot of attention to and
we'll do some moving forward. Sothat's next week. But James, you
did have a chance to see thatgame. Tell that's what you saw and

(02:01):
what excited you have down. Yeah, it was. It was a pretty
awesome night up and vone at theOntario Soccer Center. You know, I
went up there. I didn't reallyknow what to expect in terms of what
kind of crowd there would be,what kind of atmosphere there would be,
And I ranged a little road tripwith my buddy Duncan Fletcher of Waking the

(02:22):
Red and then now Vocal Minority podcast. So we chucked up to Volan and
we watched a thoroughly entertaining four twowin for the Simcoe County Rovers over Scrisapi
FC. Simcoe took the lead,you know, a little bit of a
surprise. There were two early goalsfrom from Simcota to kick things off and
sort of stunned Scrisappi. They managedto pull one back before halftime, but

(02:46):
then Ravers reinstated their two goal lead. Around me a little after the hour
mark. There was there was somedrama towards the end of red card in
the seventy seventh minute and a goalfor Scrissoppi to make it three two.
But but Simcoe you managed to navigatethat added their fourth in pretty short order
to deny the sort of dramatic finishthat we were hoping for. But you

(03:08):
know, all told, it wasa fantastic night at the soccer field.
A really good crowd. I'm terribleat estimating what numbers are in the crowds,
but those stones were slow, andthey were loud, and they were
cheering, and they were involved,and they were booming and they were hissing
and and all that sort of stuffthat you want to see from from two
rival fan bases. There's a littlebit of smoke towards the end, which

(03:30):
I always quite enjoyed, but I'msure the stewards and the security guards didn't
love that part of it. Butjust you know, all around, it
was a really good night of football, really really quality action and just pure
entertainment. Yeah. Look, Iwasn't able to make it because well I
explained, well, I was upin the skull conflict. But I have

(03:51):
been really going to tea flanoffs beforeand they are a delight to watch.
The intensity is incredible and the soccerlevel is just growing year after years.
So so it sounds like a greatnight that has had and it was a
great season overall that we sell alot of action this year that just really
pushed this level and this league toa new level. Simplo is one of
those teams that came in under thatkind of we want to be the big

(04:14):
team model. You know, theyare developing players, sure, but they're
also a bit winning and that's aneat thing to see. They represent a
community that is outside of the GTA, just outside of the gt I don't
know it's burying the GTA. That'skind of a debatable question one way or
the other, but they're certainly onthe other outskirts of it anyway. Which
is it is I think a positivesign that we are continuing to see expansion

(04:38):
out there. Like you know,we talked last week with folks from Sunday
there, so so I think it'sjust great that we're seeing this league and
the sport continue to expand it andto get into new markets and get people
excited in those markets. So it'sgreat. And of course now earned the
spot in the Canadian Championship where theywill have an opportunity to perhaps play and
we'll know they well play a professionalteam and perhaps get an upset like we

(05:00):
saw GSS rovers due this year.So so congratulates to Zempo. We will
endeavor to talk to someone from them. We'll certainly talk to people from the
league. We'll do a show upreal well for work for next week.
Before we get into today's main topic, which I'm very excited about, it's
it's referees. This week we're goingto talk about referee development and very important

(05:20):
part of the game. But beforewe get into that. There was some
U seventeen women's action that we talkedabout last week. That tournament process,
that qualified process continues, James,what can you tell us about that?
Yeah, before before we dig intoCanada's final match at the CALF Women's U
seventeen Championship Qualification or whatever that superlong title is, I just wanted to

(05:42):
apologize to everybody for not noticing aheadof last week's episode that Guiana had pulled
out of the competition due to financialconstraints, so Canada's match against them ended
up being canceled. I think Itease that that was supposed to be happening
the day of the release, soI just wanted to bologize everyone. I
was working off my initial schedule andI didn't see the news that they had

(06:03):
decided to pull out until afterwards.It it wasn't particularly well circulated that that
was happening. I didn't see anythingon the con Calf site, and I
ended up having to find a newspaperout of Guiana, Starbuck News, that
it was the only place that Icould find any sort of details, and
you know, apparently there their explanationwas that the financial constraints of having three

(06:26):
competitions ongoing at the same time,between the women's U seventeen the upcoming con
Calf Nations League, when the conkyCalf Women's Gold Cup qualifiers that were in
the near future. They just couldn'tmanage it. So that's a little bit
disappointing, but that's something that's youknow, two out of the usual for
where football is in con Calf thesedays. But back to Canada. They

(06:47):
followed up their twenty one nothing winover Dominico with a nine no win over
Gerrita on Monesday to seal their spotin the in the U seventeen Championship.
That there, nicolet Stocky scored threegoals, Annabel trick we scored two,
and then four players had singles aswell to round out the scoring. And
you know, through those two matchesCanada and scored their opponents thirty to nothing.

(07:11):
Annabel led the way with seven goalsand goalkeeper in the well Heading kept
clean sheets in both matches, whichis about would we sort of expected.
I think you and I have bothtalked about how at the U twenty pre
qualification camp Canada had had a verysimilar sort of outlay against similar level of
opponents, and so we weren't expectingthis to be too much of a challenge

(07:31):
and this was just a good chanceto get the girls together ahead of you
know, those more serious matches comingahead and next year. So with these
two results, Canada secured their qualificationto the conquer Calfwomen's U seventeen Championships in
twenty twenty four. The field isset US and Mexico. We're given a

(07:53):
bye to that competition and how SalvadorHaiti, Costa Rica, Puerto Rico,
Panama and Canada will we'll fill outthe feed yeld than the top two to
qualify out of that will will goon to the twenty twenty four FIFA U
seventeen Women's World Cup, which isgoing to be held in the Dominican Republic,
which should be pretty interesting. I'mnot sure if a Central American Caribbean

(08:15):
nations has ever held a youth WorldCup. I'm sure they have, but
to have another one coming to CAFFis just just a more great news.
There's no word yet on the drawdate or the host for the COUNC Championship,
so we'll keep an eye out forthat. And got another little quote
from from U seventeen head coach onthe Humphreys. If if people are enjoying

(08:37):
James trying to read quotes out outnews and that is that this camp has
provided our program with a great assessmentof our players from across the National Development
Centers. Together as a group,we're able to start to form our team
culture and identity across the camp andthe players were able to start to form
some of the partnerships, which wasnice to see. Squad is in a

(08:58):
really good place ahead of the newChampionships in the new years. So just
a good run out for Canada wasn'tas much of It wasn't very much of
a challenge judging by the scoreline,but it's always it's always good to get
these girls from from the various NDCstogether to give them a chance to start
to jail as a team before movingon to the next stage. I believe

(09:20):
James, I'm going completely off thetop of my head here where we're internet
free or I am right, Well, it's obviously on internet free. I'm
recording over it, but I don'thave a computer that I can tap on
right now. I believe that Canada'sunder twenty team when Paul felt Terry was
in it played a tournament in TriNetto bay go Fe for level. So
there has been one down there that'sgoing back a few years if Paul still

(09:41):
Terry was in under twenty player atthat time, so there's a blossom the
past. Totally in the development sideof things, although postal Terry might be
developing players right anyway. Before wethat this is me just avoiding the conversation
to move to my final topic rightnow because it's kind of not a gray
one real quickly, we wanted totouch in the fact that traum metch Walton

(10:03):
University had to forfeit a couple ofgames this weekend. That's your former Ryerson
in case you haven't got used tothat new name yet. They had to
for for a couple of games thisyear. There's some suggestions that it might
be some hazing stuff that's happening,that it's causing them to investigate and suspend
their soccer team. The met andsoccer team off for these games, but
we will continue to follow us up. I want to stress that I don't

(10:26):
know for sure whether the incidents arehazing related. That's just what the Scuttle
blog is. So we'll watch thatclosely and we'll see what's going on.
Regardless, there's been a couple ofgames forfeited by what is generally a pretty
strong program in New Sport, theleague kicking op it's opening weekend the last
week. James, I'm not sureif everything got to that before we sorry

(10:46):
rough rega conversation. The no,just you know that that we're still talking
about this kind of stuff in intwenty twenty three just kind of boggles my
mind that, No, it wasn'tparticularly unusual, unusual when you and I
were going up to hear whiskers aboutthings like this happening from time to time.
But the fact that it's still goingon just means we've got so much

(11:09):
more work to do. Yeah,and and hopefully we're making an apology next
week that this wasn't what happened,but that is what certainly is being suggested.
All Right, We have a greatlittle interview here with Isaac Raymond of
Canada Soccer. He's joining us rightafter the break to talk about the developing
pathway for Canadian referees. As Isaid before, this is a topic year
and dear to my heart, Ibelieve very strongly that we should give greater

(11:33):
value to the referees. I mean, I'm human. I share for teams.
I will sometimes question their calls tobut the reality is if you really
watch them with some kind of criticaleye, you realize how good the referees
can be, how difficult it isto referee this game that we love.
Isaac's gonna talk chat to us aboutwhat we do to make sure that they're
doing it better and they are performingto the best of their abilities. Right

(11:56):
after this great break and welcome backto next pot. Joining us on the
line is the manager of referees forCanada Soccer, Isaac Raymond. He's here

(12:18):
to have a nice conversation with thisabout this state of refrain and the development
world they're in. I'm excited aboutthis one. I was a referee way
back when, referee both soccer andhockey as well on different sports. I'm
sure they have similarities and how theytrain their referee, so I'm eager to
have this conversation. I think it'san important one. I think it's one
that often gets forgotten in the developmentworld. Without referees, we don't have

(12:43):
games, folks, and we needto develop good ones. Isaac, thanks
for joining us. Thanks for havingme. I'm very excited to speak about
referee very much. Let's give usa bit of background and yourself before we
jump right in. Then to tellus a bit of your pathway and how
you ended up where you are.Well, I'm probably like most referees.

(13:03):
I played, and I played forquite a long time, and then when
the body broke down, I decidedthat if I wanted to stay in the
game, I needed to find somethingof less contact, and I found refereeing
and just followed my journey there.I was a referee for many years,
joined the national list referees in Canadafor a few years, and since retiring

(13:26):
I've been assessing and instructing at thenational level and for the last eight years
and four days i've been a managerof referees to Canada Soccer. Well,
I'm so glad you could join usthrough as I we've shared many a press
box over the years. I wantedyou to take us down the pathway of

(13:46):
becoming a referee. And so thefirst step, I imagine is is somebody's
refereeing in their local house league.They've done their initial badgers, how does
that progress start and how do youguys identify candidates that you think have the
talent to go on to the professionallevel. Well, when you're talking about
the young referees at the very verylocal referee at the very local level,

(14:11):
we're not in the least looking atprofessional game referees at that point. Obviously.
Well, what we're looking for isreferees who enjoyed the game, who
want to give back, who aregetting something a little bit out of it.
Obviously most of them are in itto get a little bit of pocket
money. And really we don't startto look at them from the standpoint of

(14:33):
the talented pathway until they hit aboutseventeen eighteen years of age and up.
So young referees start refereeing between theages of fourteen and sixteen at the earliest,
they call youth referees. At thatstage, after the age of sixteen,
they become district referees and from therethey take their their progress as they

(14:56):
as they are comfortable, and thenthey take the various steps. But the
the biggest starting point is about sixteenyears of age, where young referees become
district referees and then are really moreinvolved in the eleven A side game at
that stage. Excellent excellent, Andyeah, I hope I'm not giving away
too much of my ignorance when itcomes to how how referees progress through those

(15:18):
levels with these questions, But whenwhen somebody does catch your eye or want
to move on to that professional pathway, how do you guys educate those referees.
And I'm particularly curious. I alwayssee you tweet pictures of those development
camps you guys hold with the referees. What goes on at those camps?

(15:39):
Well, the first thing is alot of work is done in province and
it's there is there a refee developmentgroup that is observing them on a day
to day basis and making evaluation,coaching and really understanding which ones of the
group had the end first of all, and then obviously have the talent.

(16:03):
And once those two key points areidentified, then then they are brought to
our attention and given opportunities and thingslike you know, national championships and events
where we can put our group ofassessors and evaluators on them to assess their
talents. And then and then theyprogress at a rate that they're comfortable with.

(16:27):
Your district referee then becomes a regionalreferee. After regional they become a
provincial referee. Really is the provincialreferees who we at Canada Soccer are looking
at as the ones who have thenext opportunity to join what we call our
next Gen program. There's a men'sand a women's component to it and that's

(16:49):
our that's our elite development group atCanada Soccer. Sort the next Gen program
brings together that group, like Isaid, usually eventual referees who have the
most potential to referee at the professionallevel. No, how is progress ass

(17:10):
What are you looking for in refereesas they make those jumps up and what
are some of the factors that gointo when it's decided that a referee is
ready to move up through the variouslevels, whether it be getting some MLS,
next games, MLS, next Pro, Thecadian Premier League, eventually MLS
and then onward the FIFA. Howhow is that manage? How are those

(17:30):
decisions made? Well? I gottabe honestly, it's a grind. It's
a grind for referee to endure theprocess because it's it's deservedly a difficult process.
If you want to be refereeing atthe highest level, you need to
really show that you can do that. So the various steps are the most

(17:52):
simple one is I say simple,That is the fitness test. Referees have
to be fit. They have tothe required standard for their level. If
they do that, then they eitherattain the next level or retain the level
that they're currently at. They haveto write an exam every year on the
laws of the game, they haveto attend clinics to receive appropriate education,

(18:18):
and then throughout the season they're evaluatedon their performances. And that whole cocktail
is put together by the provincial refereeDevelopment committees to decide on who can be
promoted and then who's best suited tobe put forward for Canada Soccer. Canada
Soccer is looking for all of thosesame things, of course, but at
a more elite level, and we'relooking for elite fitness. We're looking for

(18:41):
talented referees who are who have greatpeople's skills. Of course, at the
stage they reach us, we're lookingfor specialists. So you know, when
we say specialists, we're looking fora division between running the liners and assistant
referee or being in the middle asa referee, and those very two distinct
skills. So the whole host ofhurdles that a referee has to go through

(19:08):
in order to get to the highestlevels. Isaac, I worked closely with
the referees that they want to tearon the three years that I was associated
with the league as of a match, they coordinated and one thing that always
struck me with the referees again,that's the fitness. They're very fit people.
Folks I think really realize that howincredibly athletic it is. But beyond

(19:30):
that, it's how good they are, how few mistakes they at that level.
They really are very talented what theydo. But of course they always
are looking to be better. They'realways looking for improvements. You know,
they want to call the perfect game. That may not be obtainable. You're
going to miss things in a game. I'm wondering what you do to try
and help referees improve from mistakes,How to evaluate them, how to train

(19:53):
them ongoing during a year so thatif there was something the master or an
interpretation that maybe they can better,how do you help them to do that
better than next time. Well,the two most important components that is coaching
and video. It's very hard toevaluate a referee without them being able to

(20:14):
see themselves in action. So it'sfine for somebody to be sitting in the
stands taking notes making observations, butit really is the cocktail for success is
being able to actually see the eventsin replay and then evaluate how it's done.
So we do a lot of workbehind the scenes with video, with
coaching. At the senior level,the professional level, you know, we

(20:37):
have a fitness coach, mental performancecoaches that support them in that manner.
Obviously, in the provincial ranks andlower that's not something that's very typical,
it's unfortunate, but you know,at the very least, we're trying to
get specialists into the provincial ranks whocan help with things like fitness, because
no matter how how fit a refereethink they are, by the time they

(20:59):
get to to the senior level,the elite level, the fitness is never
quite enough. Coupled with the factthat you know, you walk into fitness
tests or matches at this level witha high level of anxiety, typically as
a young referee, which takes awaysome of your fitness, and we've got
plenty of evidence from that over theyears. So the big one, just
to answer the question simply, islots of video review and offline coaching.

(21:26):
Yeah, that's that sounds great.When I mentored off the top that I
did referee, and I don't wantto overplay how high level I was at,
particularly in the soccer side, althoughI was at a fairly high level
of hockey. I'll tell you whyI laughed at it was a series of
instances that I dealt with when Iwas twenty year I had coffee thrown at
me one and this isn't hockey,but but I imagine similar problems, right.

(21:49):
I had player or parents murder me, threatening me. I had a
father hang out by my car andforced me to go back in and call
my father to come get me.Is a twenty year old These things wear
you down, even if you loveit, and I did love it,
but they wear you down and theyget you out of the game. What
steps are being taken to get ridof some of that stuff and to help

(22:11):
young referees deal with, inevitably thebad actors that they well encounter. I
mean, we can do all wewant to try and get rid of them
well encounter bad actors. Is areferee out there, how do you help
them in that way? Well,a number of ways. The one thing
that we're doing in the very immediateis we're reproducing our entry Level clinic to

(22:32):
give more tools to young referees whoare starting out. One of the gaps
that we've had with refereeing up tonow is we haven't I don't believe,
set up our referees well enough tostart refereeing and confront these type of issues
in the right way. So inthe very immediate in twenty twenty four,
our new entry level program, we'llgive referees a few more tools in dealing

(22:55):
with these type of situations. Beyondthat, we're going to hopefully shine a
little bit of a spotlight on it. Kind of a soccer is being preparing
for a little while now, acampaign to help, as I said,
spotlight the need for respecting the gamefrom from players to players and of course
more specifically in my world, towardsreferee. But you know, there's obviously

(23:19):
a larger issue at play here whenit comes to abuse of referees, and
there's a there's many many areas thatthat could be better, from the discipline
process to the training that coaches received, and then of course from the coaches
down to the players. You know, it's a multifaceted problem that as you're

(23:41):
alluding to, first of all,a horrible problem, but it's a prevalent
in every sport and in every countryaround the world. And if I had,
if I had the solution, Itell you, but it is really
something that's working hard to try andrectify. Yeah, is it. Anytime
those stories filter up to me,I'm always a bit dismayed about the state

(24:04):
of the state of our game andthe state of the world, to be
frank, But you know, despitedespite those sort of incidents that I like
to be positive about the future ofthis game in our country here. We've
seen it grow a lot over thelast ten years that I've been I've been
tracking it, and I just wantedto get your impression of how you've seen

(24:26):
this green game grow over the lastcouple of years and how you see things
going forward, both in terms ofthe soccer of the football itself and also
for referee development. Well, Ithink it's fantastic in all honesty. Obviously,
the cpo is is made a bigdifference in that regard. It's given
us a steady diet of games domesticallyas opposed to the cross border mixed that

(24:52):
we had and as you alluded tothose games that we used to sit side
by side in oppress the box andemton watching. So this, this Canadian
brand of soccer has made a hugeimpact on the game. Projects eight looks
like it's going to be coming forwardin a couple of years time with a
women's pro league that's going to makea huge difference for the women in Canada

(25:15):
that want to be referees, players, coaches and so on. And no,
I'm very optimistic about the game.Operations such as League one Canada with
leagues across Canada for the for thesemi pro group is again another foothold in
the development run that's going to makea huge difference for not just a game,
but you know, in my world, speaking specifically about refereeing, it's

(25:38):
it's it's fantastic for the growth ofthe game, Isaac. To wrap up,
I mean, I don't want tomake paint a poor picture of refereeing
because it was, as you say, I get gave me pocket changes that
it's a teenager. It kept meinvolved in the game at a higher level
than I was able to reach asa player. It gave me a lot

(25:59):
of joy with outside of few issuesthat forced me out of it eventually,
and there's you know, not ayear who goes by. But I don't
think that maybe it might be somethingthat one day I go back to as
well. How what would advice wouldyou give to someone who was thinking of
getting a referee, who was thinkingof starting their badges and starting this process
forward. What would you tell ayoung person that they came up to you
and said that they were interested inus, Well, I would tell them

(26:22):
that, first of all, thesky's the limit. As a referee,
there's a there's probably way more opportunitiesto get to the professional game as a
referee per capita than there is asa player. The enjoyment and the fulfillment
you'll receive as a referee is reallyoverwhelming. It's a it's a it's something
I never imagined as a player.I never imagined that there was this whole

(26:45):
other world that doing YouTube obviously haveexperienced, where you've got a whole network
of people who are you, whoare your comrades and your friends, and
you will make lifelong friends. Andyou know, if you look at some
of the people that have been producedby Canadian referee have gone to the highest
levels and travel the world and experiencethe biggest games in the world. What

(27:07):
a great opportunity for young referee startingout. But the biggest thing, of
course, I think the advice Igive to young referees is just come and
enjoy the game. Get into thegame, enjoy the game, be a
referee, learn some new life skillsas a as a young person, and
see where it takes you. Youknow, one step at a time.
But I think it's a great opportunityfor any young person who wants to stay

(27:29):
in bold in the game. Isaac. I'm a fan of the sport as
well, and I have teams thatI share for so of course I have
questioned the offside call that happened threehundred yards before it's going to happen again
in the passion of the moment,but in this sober second thoughts moment right
now, I want to thank anyreferee out there. We do not have
a game without you. I sincerelybelieve that you're highly skilled people and we

(27:52):
really need more of you to getto that level. So so thank you
referees for all that you do.I don't normally thank people when I'm in
the interviews, but I'll thank youas well for the work you do to
produce referees and to continue to admitgrog sport in this country. Isaac,
thank you and I appreciate the opportunityto speak to refereeing anytime. Thanks again,
Isaac will be right back after thisquick little break