Det. Jason White

René delves into some grisly true crime cases with Tulsa Police Department's Detective Jason White.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Night Vision Vision. Following clues leftby our ancestors, we unbury the past
to reveal a knowledge of unfathomable value, putting us just a little closer to
our own true birthrights. From thesecret history of a possible bloodline of Jesus
Christ, a secret history of America'sfounders, to the secret history of extraterrestrial

(00:26):
interaction on our planet, here tobring light to the night. Your host
for night Vision Radio Renee Barnett.Hey, everybody, welcome tonight Vision again.

(00:49):
I hope that you are going toenjoy tonight'show it's going to be a
little bit different, stretching my genreshere a little bit. What you know,
as you may know if you've seenthe show before, we largely concentrate
on history and alternative history, andalso the pair of normal to quite an

(01:12):
extent. But what some of youmay not know is I am a true
crime buff and I think I've readjust about every true crime murder book that's
ever been written. And I cameby that honestly because my mother was the
same way, And every time Iwould go visit my mom, I would

(01:36):
come back with a grocery bag fullof true crime books to read and I
don't know what it is. Somepeople thought I was very weird, and
I guess by extension, my momtoo. But I think what it is
is it's that some of the crimesare so heinous. The ones that are

(02:00):
less interesting to me are the oneswhere people act in the heat of passion
or in a moment of madness.But to actually, you know, take
someone's life for your own gratuitive,gratuitous reasons, or for money or something

(02:21):
like that, I just find thatreally hard to wrap my head around.
And what goes through the mind ofpeople that, for whatever reason they're wants
and needs outweigh the life, thevery life's breath of someone else. So
to help me sort of sort someof this out, I have tonight with

(02:46):
me Jason White. He is ahomicide detective in Tulsa, Oklahoma. You
guys might recognize him from television becauseI know he's been on some shows like
The First forty eight and others likethat. We're going to talk about that
too, and why police departments involvethemselves in those types of productions and things.

(03:09):
And I think we had some conversationsoff the air, and I kind
of I was surprised to find outthe reason why departments do this and how
it actually helps them out. Butbefore I do any of that, Hi,

(03:29):
Jason, Hey Renee, thanks forhaving me on. Yeah. Now,
aside from you being a police detective, you're also a show host on
KGRA and your show is called Intothe Fire, That's right, and you
and your co hosts talk about crimeand different cases and that sort of thing.

(03:52):
What did you tell us a littlebit about your show? I will.
We're honored to be a part ofthe KGRA Digital Broadcasting family. This
is actually my first podcast. Well, no, actually it's my second because
I've been on Eye Detective. Andso when I went on I Detective with
Christaperno and in his crew, heapparently, you know, he liked he

(04:12):
liked me, and so he askedme if I wanted to be a part
of the family. I I absolutelydid, And then uh, I got
with Ronnie Leatherman, and he reallywanted something that was in reference to true
crime. And since Ronnie and Iare both still employed, uh and we
both I work as a homicide detective. He is. He now works for
the city and he's basically working asa cold case, like a civilian cold

(04:34):
case investigator. I mean he's he'slike on day three or four right now,
so he just started in that capacity. But what we wanted to do,
uh well, actually it's been kindof nice because both you know,
Bill Bill Forte who's the program director, and Christaperno, they said, you
can do whatever you want. We'renot gonna we're not going to tell you

(04:55):
what to do. But since weboth still work, you know, we
try to stay off of the hotbutton issues that are going to cause a
lot of you know, people freakingout if you say one thing that just
ticks people off. So we stickwith basically individuals that I like to have
to come on the show. We'vehad individuals that have actually we have one

(05:15):
that actually served time in federal prisonthat I actually met by a chance encounter.
She was cleaning the windows in thein the lobby of a federal prison
and then she reached out to meafter the fact, and we've had her
on all the way to probably oneof the best crime scene detectives, one
of the best in the world.And and so we've got people all over
the place. I'm interested in peoplethat are moving in a positive direction in

(05:39):
the world of criminal justice. That'sactually making a difference, and that's what
I want. I want to Iwant to showcase people that are actually special
and they're really making a huge impactor a positive impact in this world.
And I think that, you know, I'm honored to be able to do
so. It's been it's been afun journey so far. We've had twenty
one episodes. So to your listeners, if you want to, you want

(06:02):
to be entertained for a solid fiftyfour minutes, we would love to have
you. We're on Friday nights,seven pm Central Standard Time and we go
live. And so it's been it'sbeen a fun journey so far. That
is really wild. Now do youis there a large stack of cold cases

(06:25):
there in Tulsa, Oklahoma? Well, some of the cold cases that I
know about have been solved, sowell, to answer your question and be
specific, if I was to takeyou on a virtual tour of our of
our cold case room, there's approximatelythree hundred cases that exist in that room

(06:46):
that date back to nineteen sixty eight. So if you committed a murder previous
to nineteen sixty eight in the cityof Tulsa and you didn't get arrested,
I really don't know what to sayabout it, because I don't know where
those cases are. I just knowthat cases go back to nineteen sixty eight,
and I think that I think that, you know, the quality control

(07:06):
is much better now to keep trackof those type of cases than it was
back in the day. Yeah,I mean now we've got computers and everything,
so absolutely so we've got three hundred, well, we've got three hundred
cases there, and then each detectivehas, you know, most of the
detectives rather have probably an assortment oftheir own personal cold cases. And the

(07:30):
way it kind of works is thatonce you get a case, it's yours
until you retire or leave the unit, and once you do that, then
that case actually will eventually get downto the cold case room. But you
know, I have a little Ithink I have ten or eleven or twelve
cold cases right now that I've hadover the years, you know, and
they're going to stay with me untilI either solve them or until you know

(07:54):
it, I end up retiring oneday, which one day we will all
retire out of in it. Sothat's what I think telling myself, is
one day I'll retire. I'm lookingI'm looking at it about another nine years.
If i'm you know, health permitting, we'll see yes, you know,
yeah, then you probably do somethingelse. You know, you probably
say I'm bored, I need toget I need to do something different.

(08:16):
But you're probably going to be doingyour shows and other things. But and
when we're talking about cold cases,we're talking about murder cases, right,
Yes, that's the Yeah, that'swe're talking about cold case homicides, and
some of them, you know,they may actually be a missing person case
where and I'm talking specifically about itin our cold case room. It might

(08:39):
be a missing person case that wesuspect to be a murder or actual actual
homicides that we know are cold cases. And so with the technology and how
it's advanced in just a short time, I mean, my gosh, in
just the last few years, theDNA DNA thing is really oh yeah,
it's fascinating. And actually that's whatI really you know, when I heard

(09:01):
you speaking, when you did yourintro, I loved that because you know,
I'm not near the avid reader thatyou are, I'm sure, but
I have read. That's how Igot interested in all of this to begin
with. I mean, the bookHelter Skelter is what really opened my eyes
to the world of murder. Andit's a fascinating book. And then I
can remember reading In Cold Blood byTruman Capoti and then Fat Fatal Vision by

(09:24):
Joe McInnis. You know, yes, yes, yes, those are fantastic
books. And I've read many others, but those are really the ones that
kind of started me on this roadof wanting to do this. And you
know, like you, I waskind of probably one of those people that
they're like, is he all right? You know, he's reading these books
about murder at a young age.And I can remember going back to and

(09:48):
think, are you having murderous thoughtsor something? Is that what? But
to me it's like, you know, how does a person's mind, you
know, get manipult related or howare they able to justify? And then
you know, and then sleep atnight. For one thing, you're going
to be worried constantly about, youknow, the law coming after you.

(10:11):
And another thing is you got tolive with yourself. And I do understand
that not everybody's the same. Youknow, all men are really not created
equal when it comes to conscience andthat sort of thing. And some people
are social paths and psychopaths, andthey don't have capability. I hope,

(10:33):
so I hope that they're looking overtheir shoulder. I hope that they're freaking
out. That's what we want.We don't want them to be cool and
have no conscience about this. Thatwe kind of count on that, and
fortunately for us, most human beingshave. They just can't keep their mouths
shut. I mean, that's basicallyone of the problems too. And really
in today's day and age, youleave such an electronic finger or footprint,

(10:58):
regardless of whether or not you're onyour phone, on the computer, driving
a car, I mean you are. It's really really difficult to just evade
all something. There's something that isgonna going to show us something. And
then on top of it, youknow, you gotta you gotta, you
gotta think that there's people. Youknow, if we didn't have people telling
us what's up, then we wouldn'tsolve hardly a fraction of what we solve

(11:20):
now. I mean, if we'renot counting on scientific methods to solve cases,
even though it's great, but ifyou're, if you're relying upon solving
a case based on that, you'regoing to be in real trouble and you're
you're not going to last very longin this business, I can promise you.
Yeah, No, you know,it's very much the technology is very
much a tool, but it's certainlynot the whole investigation, that's for sure.

(11:43):
But you know that you mentioned.One of the books that sort of
sparked your interest was Fatal Vision byby Joe McGuinness, and uh, for
those that may not know, especiallythose of you who are a little bit
younger, Uh, that was abook about a Green Beret doctor who allegedly,

(12:07):
well, I guess he's been convictedof murdering his wife and small children,
his pregnant wife and small children.And he claimed that this wasn't long
after the Manson murders, which youalso just mentioned in the book Helter Skelter.
He claimed that it was a bunchof hippies that came in and wrote
things like LSD is cool and youknow, blah blah blah. But later

(12:37):
at that time and I later workedon a television show that's my pay job,
I guess you could say that.And I spoke with the prosecutor and
he explained to me about the bloodevidence and how each one had a different

(13:03):
you know, blood type, whichof course was mostly what was available at
the time, so that because ofthat they could tell exactly what order those
murders were committed in because of theoverlap of the blood splatter and things like
that, And I mean he wasconvinced without a doubt that that was it.

(13:28):
McDonald was that the guy's name,His name is Jeffrey McDonald, A
McDonald. He was a lieutenant colonelin the army. Yes, actually originally
he was a plastic surgeon, butI think he was a general surgeon.
You know, people don't realize thatplastic surgeons are actually general surgeons first,
actually doctors. Yeah, they aregeneral surgeons that actually go to a specialized

(13:50):
training to become a plastic surgeon.So he was a Green Beret, you're
correct. I loved listening to thatbecause you actually know, a lot of
people don't even know about that caseat this point in life, you know
what I mean. But he's stillin prison, he's still maintaining his innocnce,
and he still has a big followingof Oh, I'm sure of people,
especially women of a certain age,who you know. I actually knew

(14:16):
a woman here in Los Angeles.She lived in South Pasadena, and her
husband before he passed was this reallybig prominent doctor, and I don't remember
if it was before he passed awayor after he passed away. She got

(14:37):
involved somehow with this Jeffrey McDonald thing, and she was like sending money and
you know, trying to plead hiscase to people. And I just thought,
you know, why would you involveyourself in that? I really don't
know. But and plus I hadtalked with the you know, the cops

(14:58):
and the prosec and I knew alittle bit more than the average person on
the street just from having talked tothem. And I thought, YEA,
well, I'll tell you something.It's interesting about that case, his part
instead of the victim's part. Well, when I talk about that case,
because usually I'm kind of like theI'm kind of like the tour guy through

(15:20):
our office, and so when I'mtalking about crime scene and stuff like that,
when I'm giving somebody a tour throughwhere we work, you know,
part of that tour, I kindof take them through the crime scene area
as well. And I was acrime scene detective before I joined homicide,
so not for very long a yearand a half. I've been a cop
for twenty six years. I probablyshould have mentioned that I've been a cop
for twenty six years. I workedin a variety of assignments from undercover to

(15:46):
school resource officer. But really themeat and potatoes of what I've done is
I went and joined the crime sceneunit. I was lucky enough to get
into there. I did that fora year and a half before segueing into
homicide, where I've you know,we recently calculated these numbers and it's kind
of a fun fact, but itwas told to me that there's three detectives
that have actually been assigned as thelead detective in the city of Tulsa of

(16:10):
over one hundred cases to be thelead detective on and I'm a number three.
So I'm only one of three,or I'm actually three all time in
the in the history of Tulsa.And eventually, if things go, if
I continue to do this for theas many years as I think I can,
then I will one day be I'llbe number one on that list.
And I don't know that that willever be broken because the young people of

(16:33):
today, they don't stick around.But what I was going to say about
that case, as far as crimescene that I think is fascinating and I
always bring it up, is thatthat that particular crime scene was actually sealed
off and they kept that crime sceneintact for years, like multiple years.
Now. They didn't keep the victimsthere, of course that's crazy, but

(16:56):
they but they did keep the sceneas is. And they were able to
do that because the crime scene actuallywas on Camp La June and this crime
happened in nineteen seventy one, butit was on Camp La June, and
so you know, it's owned bythe military. They can do whatever they
want, and so they kept that, They kept that sealed off that barracks
where he lived at the time.It was kind of family coarters like little

(17:18):
condos or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, they tore it down. Gosh,
I want to say probably ten yearsago, maybe now, but they ended
up tearing it down, but formany, many years they kept that up.
It was like an actual model ofthe scene because it was the scene.
And how interesting is that. Yeah, yeah, I remember, you
know, if I'm not misremembering it, that he might have gotten away with

(17:48):
that at least back then before therewas all this DNA technology. But he
started kind of like enjoying the tensionand he went on talk shows. I
know he went on this show calledthe Dick Cavot Show. Yeah, way
back, and yeah, way wayback, and I remember that was when

(18:14):
his wife's his deceased wife's parents beganto doubt him. Plus, they had
asked for the transcripts of something,maybe in quest or I'm not sure what
it was, and he kept puttingthem off to provide them with a copy
of it. They finally obtained acopy through their own means, and then

(18:36):
they realized how much he had beenlying about. And that's when her stepfather,
who was like her dad, that'swhen it turned for him and he
began to really start pushing this caseagainst Jeffrey MacDonald. Yeah, and I
would really want to applaud the policedepartment for actually listening to as opposed to

(19:00):
this, you know, closing themoff and not really giving him a chance.
But yeah, there's a there's amade for television movie that came out
way back in the day. Iwant to say it was probably in the
late seventies or the early eighties,and I remember watching it and I think
it was Carl Maldon that played hisdad. I can't remember for sure,
but it was. Yeah, itwas a great It was a great movie,
and I think it was multiple partsactually, but it was really good.

(19:23):
And uh, anyway, it's it'sone of the cases that I'm I'm
interested in that one as well.But really, my my favorite case of
all to talk about, honestly isprobably the Manson murders. I just think
it's got everything. It's got sex, drugs, rock and roll and famous
people all wrapped up into the waterthat happened, you know how I can't

(19:44):
remember, you know, and Iwas living in Tulsa at the time,
still is before I moved to LosAngeles in uh, which I did a
few years later. But I justremember it was just so scary, you
know, when the murders first happened, and hearing the reporting because nobody knew

(20:06):
who it was at that time,right, it was just these hideous murders,
you know, the Sharon Tate andIsabelle Folgers or in Abagail Bulger and
then the two yeah, the Lobyanka'sthe next night. I'll tell you what
I've said this all along, andI keep saying it. If if I
ever had an you know that theresidence where the Lobbyancas lives still exists,

(20:30):
yeah, it's it's located at thirtythree eleven Waverley Drive and Lose feel.
Yeah. Yeah. But anyway,so that that house still exists, and
it recently sold, and I wantto say it was it was sold for
like one point seven million, whichis actually a screaming deal for for for
that house, and it was yeah. Absolutely, But anyway, so it
sold recently, and I still Itell all the classes and the places that

(20:52):
I go and teaches. I wouldlove to if that thing ever comes up
as an Airbnb, I'm probably gonnarent it just one night, and I'd
love to lumin all it, justto see if it would lumin us fifty
five years later, fifty four yearslater. I mean, wouldn't that be
an exciting experiment to just check?But har it wouldn't be interested. But

(21:14):
it would be fun to take aghost hunter team in there too, Well
it really would. As a matterof fact. Uh, you know that
the Tate House got tore down,but they did, they did it.
They did a ghost Hunters or Idon't know what the show was, but
they did a ghost Hunters deal thatwas like a few houses two houses down
from Yeah, no kidding, reallyyeah, yeah, oh my god.

(21:37):
Yeah, it's it's next door.It's next door where uh the house was
where Sharon Tate lived, right,and he claims that he has a lot
of ghost activity and stuff. Yeah, I saw a YouTube video with him
on it and I watched to workwith really, you know, it wasn't

(21:59):
that one long ago, well maybeit was two years ago now that it
was during COVID, and you know, there wasn't any TV production going on
obviously, or anything going on.And so these producers that I was working
with, these old colleagues of mine, came up with this idea of doing

(22:22):
these live streaming events where we wouldplace cameras, you know, hidden,
you know, cameras all over alocation and then you know, we would
have just one small crew in theirghost hunting and then people around the world
could view it, and people youknow, were recording it, and they

(22:45):
would send us little things that theycaught on camera, you know, an
ORB or someone you know, ghostlylooking walking past, and you know,
it was a lot of fun.We did it at the first one we
did was at the house from theConjuring House, you know, for the
Conjuring movies. Yeah, and thenwe did Lizzie Borden's House, the Lizzie

(23:11):
Boyden Murder House, and then wedid the Queen Mary, and we were
going to do this guy's house,uh that was up there next to the
old Tate House. And I toldmy colleagues, look, I've worked with
this guy. I've talked to thisguy before, and I said, he's

(23:33):
impossible to work with my girlfriend,who's uh, you know, pretty prominent
producer in town and she's not knownto be a shrinking violet. She goes,
I'll handle him, and so weshe and I went over to his
house to talk about it, andhe started telling us, you know,
how we were going to do it, and then it had to be all

(23:56):
about him and you know, allthis stuff. Any Way, we ended
up just standing up and walking out. But so I can't vouch whether or
not he does have any activity,although ghost under groups have been over there
and yeah, blamed to have gottenthings. Well, I think it's a

(24:18):
fascinating case. Nevertheless, And yearsago, years ago, before I was
a cop, I was actually doinga book report on Helter Skelter and I
wanted to blow up the photos fromthe book. And so I was in
college and I went to a placecalled that a lot of your viewers aren't
even going to remember unless they're reallyold, but it's called Kinko's. Yeah,

(24:41):
young viewers aren't going to know it. But anyway, so I went
in there, and I remember beforeKinkos even existed, so there you go.
So they basically said, hey,you need a copyright release on this,
and I was like, what isthat. I don't even know what
the heck that is. And theysaid, they said, well, you
just need to call the author,or you need to call the publisher.
And so that's what I did.I called the publisher and they were like,

(25:02):
yeah, that isn't going to happen. And then I called. I
called his I don't take know thateasily. So I called. I knew
he had a law office in LaVincent Buliosi, and so I call.
I called his office and I lefta message with his with his secretary and
she said, well, i'll giveit to mister Buliosi. Thanks, And
I thought, yeah, I'm nevergoing to hear from this guy ever,
and I'll be He called me atmy house and you know, he had

(25:22):
a really unusual voice. Yeah Ican hear it. I can hear it
right now. Yeah, so whathe called me. I couldn't believe it.
I was like, I was inawe and he goes, I said,
you know, I just please forgiveme. I just can't believe.
He called me at my house andI remember him telling me. He goes,
oh, I don't worry about it. I'm nobody special. And I
said, well, I can assureyou I'm not gonna I'm not trying to
make money off of your book.I just wanted to do this. He
goes, oh, I don't careif you make money, good for you.

(25:45):
Have fun. He was great.We talked for like twenty minutes on
the phone, and the craziest partwas I didn't even want to I wanted
to talk about the Manson murders.I wanted to talk about all that.
He didn't want to talk about anyof that. He wanted to talk about
a book that he had written calledOutrage, that he had wrote about the
O. J. Simpson case.And that's what he really wanted to talk
about. And so, which wasfine. I didn't care. I was

(26:07):
I was just wanted to talk tothe guy. My One of my biggest
regrets to this. Anybody might notbe familiar with Vincent Bugils. He wrote
the book Helter Skelter, And washe the district No, he was a
cop. Well, no, hewas a he was an assistant district attorney
for and so he actually he's onlylost one case in his career. He's

(26:29):
dead now, That's what I wasgonna say. He did about five or
six years ago. And that's oneof my regrets. That's one of my
regrets is that, Oh, Ireally wish I could have called him and
just you know, he wouldn't haveremembered me from anybody else, but but
I wish I could have called himand just said, hey, you know,
I just wanted to let you knowthat you have been such an inspiration
for me to make it to thispoint because I just kind of grew up.

(26:51):
And I know there's a lot ofspeculation about that book as to whether
or not I don't know. There'sdifferent things that have came up about it,
but there always is there is.But I'll tell you what. For
him to take the time, Ithought that was pretty amazing and it's something
that I never have forgotten. AndI just wish that I would have had
an I wish I would have takenthe time to call him up just to
say, hey, by the way, I'm a homicide detective. And it's

(27:12):
the large part because of you.So but anyway, it was still a
cool, cool experience and neat andand something that I fondly remember. Yeah.
Yeah, now I talked to I'vetalked to another guy a couple of
times that. Matter of fact,I've tried to get him on my show.
But Scott got Lee what's his lastname, But he does a He's

(27:37):
the guy that did Dearly Departed toursin Los Angeles. He's kind of an
authority when it comes to the Mansonmurders and a lot of these famous deaths
of people. And he has apodcast. It's just fabulous. I love
listening to it because he's just gotso much. The information he's got on
a lot of these cases is justphenomenal. But anyway, so that's that's

(28:00):
my that's my thing. I love. I'm kind of obsessed with murder a
little bit. Uh not not notnot your just like you what you said
that those those those ones that arekind of like a there's really not a
story to it. Uh, thosearen't really the ones that I'm talking about.
I'm talking about and really I thinkif the general public had an idea
as to what most of these revolvearound. It's not your dateline mysteries.

(28:22):
It's just stupid stuff. I mean, most of them are just really really
stupid. And then you're dealing withreally really stupid people. And I hate
to say that, but that's reallywhat it is. You're just dealing with
ignorant people with very very poor conflictresolution and really very little conscience. And
it's just kind of sad. Butthat's that's the that's the deep dark secret

(28:45):
about what we generally deal with.We're not dealing with fascinating cases that that
are just a and I've had afew of those too, but but nothing
like nothing like that. Yeah.Well I moved to Los Angeles, US
in June of nineteen seventy seven.Well then we lived there. That we
lived there at the same time becauseI lived in Sherman Oaks right right there

(29:08):
at the one. I'm in thevalley. I'm just right by Sherman Oaks.
Yeah, I lived off I livedoff of Van Eys Boulevard. So
when I was a kid, andthat's when and that's when we went up
to Coello Drive, you know,I mean I remember that one we went
up there, and I remember lookingat it. The first time I came
out here, as a matter offact, was for a visit, maybe

(29:30):
a couple of years before U seventyseven, and I came out here to
visit my boyfriend who was a musician, and that's one of the first places
he took me was up to CoelloDrive and where the clothes were thrown over
the side and everything. You know, that was that was right around the
corner from where I walked. Iwould walk right past that area going to

(29:53):
school because I went to Sherman Oaksor no was it, I went Sherman
Oaks Elementary School. So I rememberI would walk right past that area,
you know, and crazy, itwas crazy. But then right after that,
you know that the hillside stranglers wererunning around Los Angeles too, oh,
I know. And then at thattime I was living I don't know

(30:15):
if you're familiar with Mount Washington,I've heard it. It's sort of like
the next set of hills on northeastof Hollywood Hills. Okay unless posh,
But anyway, I was living upthere and there was someone that was dumped
up there, not you know,just right sort of by my house.
It was really weird, and Iremember, you know, it was in

(30:38):
the hot, hot summer. Wewere having a horribly hot summer when all
those nightstalker. Oh, I'm gettingconflated here. I'm getting the Hillside Strangler
and the Nightstalker conflated because I hadHillside Strangler too though when you know,
because that went on for a while, and I remember sleeping, you know,

(31:00):
with all the windows shut and everything, and I didn't have air conditioning
because you didn't really need it thenhere, and I just remember suffocating at
night, but not daring to leavea window open, because that's what he
was doing, was you know,one of them was going into well,
yeah, you're thinking of Richard Ramirezthat I think that's Richard Ramirez. Yeah.

(31:21):
And the other two, the HillsideStrangler guys. Ah there, the
Angelo or whatever his name was.His his house and body shop weren't very
far away in Glendale. They werevery very close to me. And then
there was they picked up, youknow, a couple of little girls at

(31:45):
the Eagle Rock Mall, which wasright there by where I lived. And
then at the Shell gas station onthe corner, there was a couple that
owned that that got killed and thenand those were the stranglers, I think,
but the Nightstalker, I knew peoplethat, you know, their next

(32:06):
door neighbors got murdered and things likethat. Yeah, it's crazy, it's
crazy, and you know, andpeople don't realize it. I've told people
this, I said, even inthe even in the mid seventies, you
know, nineteen seventy five, andthat's probably when I first saw the book.
I know, the book came outin nineteen seventy four for Helter Skelter,
But even even in the mid seventies, there was still a fear that
kind of gripped Los Angeles, believeit or not. I mean when you

(32:28):
were driving up there in the HollywoodHills, and I can remember it.
I mean, when we were drivingup there, people people were watchful of
who was up there. And itwas still it was still I wouldn't say
that the Mansibers were necessarily a hugetalk of the town, but it was
still. It changed, it changedthe way the world was in that area.

(32:49):
It's like the love and piece ofthe sixties that's gone, you know,
Yeah, and now we're now we'vegot we're locking our doors and locking
our windows and stuff. And Ithink in large part it was based on
that. But like, uh,then the Hillside Strangler started running around,
and then you had that that fearthat gripped Los Angeles again. And and
I just remember my dad was ahighway patrolman in California, and I remember
him telling my mom, be careful, you know, be be really careful.

(33:13):
This is you know, these guysare picking people up, they're picking
women up, and they're killing them. And uh. But but aside from
that, uh, the that thatthat was another thing and another reason that
it really kind of fascinated me.And then it went on to the to
the nightstalker. Of course that's anothercase. It's fascinating. And I know
I've been fortunate enough in this position. I mean, you probably can tell
I'm a little obsessed. And Idon't think that most of your homicide guys

(33:36):
are going to be able to recitea lot of these cases. But you
know, Gil Corilla, Gil Corillawas that one of the one of the
lead detectives on that. It washim and his partner, and his partner
actually was a lead detective on theHillside Stranglers and somewhat of a legend and
so when Gil being the young detective. I've been fortunate enough to meet Gil,
hang out with him, talk tohim. He's been on my show,

(33:57):
and uh, he's just an interestingguy. I I love listening about
those cases because you know that they'rethey're they're important for us to know.
And as a homicide detective, Ithink you should be a student of those
type of cases. You know,we we can do so much more now.
I told Gil this. I toldGil, I said, Gil,
if the night Stalker happened today.I don't know if you liked it or

(34:19):
not, but I was like,if the night Stocker case happened today,
we'd probably solve that they get aboutten minutes. I mean, it is
so much different the technology that existstoday that you know, they they when
they had a fingerprint that you literallyback then, people don't realize they literally
would have to go through card bycard searching. They didn't have it automated

(34:39):
via computers and stuff. So imagineyou had to have a name, You
had to have a name of somebodyto basically compare that to or you would
be I don't know how in theheck they did it back in the thirties,
My gosh, you know, theyhad guys literally sitting in a room
going through fingerprint cards. Can youimagine. And so it's not like that
anymore, Thank Heaven, thank God, thank god. We don't have to

(35:01):
do that anymore. But you know, like, for instance, I mean,
you know, the last you know, twenty years, there's been so
many advancements, even in the lastfew years in things like DNA. I
wonder if you know, if anybodyis going back and looking at cases like

(35:23):
okay, for instance, like theOJ case, you know, hotly contested
verdict there, but would there besomething there that would that would then make

(35:43):
it more definitive. I'm going tosay that they're probably not looking at that
case, and I'm going to tellyou why. Yeah. I don't think
they're looking at it either. Butyeah, do you tell me one well,
in their opinion, you know,OJ's the guy. Yeah, And
I know that there's been a lotof information. I get a guy that's
in me stuff all the time inreference to that case, and basically some

(36:04):
of the information that he's sent inme is stuff like you know, uh,
Kim Kardashian basically went into her dad'ssecret room that he had and found
compelling evidence that would suggest that notonly OJ but his son were the ones
that actually committed the murder, youknow, and and that you know,
based on the fact that she didn'twant to destroy her dad's reputation by basically

(36:24):
you know. And whether this istrue or not, I don't really know,
but it's there's, there's I've heardthe son's name come up. I've
heard of I've heard of another guythat basically is a guy that OJ was
running with. Who knows, butI will tell you this, as far
as forensic evidence linking O. J. Simpson to this case, it's overwhelming,
and it's it's it's it's absolutely crazythat that that the verdict came out

(36:49):
as it did. Uh. Imean, you'd have to be an incredible
moron to not see the evidence.There's there's it's overwhelming. You just can't
have a conspiracy that involves as manycops that would have had to do have
existed and be a part of that. And I think that the attorneys that
were on honestly, I think thatthe prosecutors on that And you know,
I'm not a I'm not a prosecutor, but I'm gonna give my opinion,

(37:10):
I think that they were just therewas too much for him. I mean,
I don't think that they had nearthe experience or the I mean they're
up against literally the dream team ofdefense attorneys that were that were you know,
hey, we're going to talk aboutDNA. Let's bring Barry sheck in,
the foremost expert on that. Imean, f Lee Bailey and all
these other attorneys, Yah know,that are the best of the best.

(37:32):
And then and you know, Idon't know, but but but I will
tell you that's an interesting case too. I think it's fascinating and I was
obsessed with it back then. Itell you I will never ever if I
love to be a thousand forget whenthey came down, they read that verdict
out Robert Kardashian's face. Yeah,he was shocked like he had been in

(38:01):
the stomach. Yeah, well hewas shocked. And I think they all
were shocked. You know. Ohnumber one, well rule number one.
You know, uh, Christopher Dardenshould have never had him try on that
glove. That was stupid. Butbut but but you know, you never
you never ask a question you don'tknow what the answer is going to be.

(38:22):
That's right, And you know,you're dealing with an actor, and
yeah, OJ did a good job. But then again, I've always kind
of said this too, well,well, think about it. What happens
to a leather glove when it's coveredin blood or wet, It shrinks,
for God's sake. So I mean, they never really addressed that. I
don't remember that being addressed. AndI can remember obsessively recording those those the

(38:45):
trials, so I watched it allstraight through. I'd come home and watch
it, so I don't remember thatbeing brought up. But that's what's neat
about this this job, and that'swhat I want to at least say,
is, first of all, Iwant to thank you for having me on.
I think this is awful than Ireally appreciate it. It anytime I
can get out there, and Ilike talking about what it is that we
do, and it's it's fun beinga host of one of these shows,

(39:07):
but it's more fun being a guest, honestly, because then I can I
can talk about whatever I want forthe most point, and what's neat about
what I do And one of thethings that I love about it and one
of the things that's cool about beingon TV is that being on TV.
I say this all the time.We should be ambassadors of the profession of

(39:28):
just law enforcement. Please work period. You know, we're we're I'm I'm
extremely accessible. I mean, ifsomebody want to reach if they want to
reach me, they can. Theycan go to my Facebook page and it's
Detective Jason White. You can findme there. You can message me and
I'll actually message you back if Ior or yeah, I'm as at all.

(39:52):
It's at d E T Jason Whiteon Twitter, on Instagram, et
cetera. So my point is isthat I'm accessible, et cetera. We
are blessed to be a part ofthat show. Honestly, I'm I'm I'm
still amazed that other cities aren't jumpingover themselves to try to be a part

(40:14):
of that. And let me tellyou why. The reason is that what
is Well, the reason why isbecause well, first of all, they'll
tell you that they told us whenthey first joined us, because we don't
make any money and neither is thecity. They told us that it's for
recruitment and and and in reality itkind of puts us on the map,
so to speak. And I cantell you, I'll tell you a quick

(40:35):
story. I love this story,and this is the value of that show.
Well, there was a family thatshowed up up there in our waiting
room. And you know, ourshow has been on from coming up on
ten years and this this happened probablya couple of years ago, so we've
been on TV for like seven yearsat this point. And this family comes
up there and it's a it's ait's a white guy, his white wife,
his white daughter. They and thereason why I even said they just

(40:58):
looked like they'd had a hard life. Really, I mean, they looked
like they had had a really hardlife. This guy, when he sees
me, he goes, oh mygosh, it's great to meet you.
It's great to meet you. AndI was like, oh, okay,
because we get that from time totime somebody will want to take a selfie
with us or whatever, and wetry to accommodate that. And I was
like, oh, okay, great, great, and he goes, hey,
listen, I got to tell yousomething, man. I just absolutely

(41:19):
love what you guys do. Youguys treat everybody with respect. You guys,
it doesn't matter what the socioeconomic backgroundis of that person. You're gonna
work just as hard for this personas you will for that person to solve
the case. And I'm like,all right, well thanks, you know
that's cool. He goes, Listen, I've spent over half of my life
in prison, and I was raisedto hate the cops. But I absolutely

(41:43):
love you guys. And I waslike, that's really that's really nice to
hear. He goes, I cameup here with my daughter. My daughter
is eighteen years old. She witnesseda murder yesterday and she actually drove the
killer and she's going to tell youall about it. Now, this murder
didn't happen in Tulsa. But Itrust you guys. I trust you guys
to do the right thing. Andso I said, well, that's great.

(42:04):
You know, how about if Itake her back here, if you
don't mind, I'm going to takeher back here. I'm an interviewer.
And he's like, that's fine,take her, just bring her home when
you're done. And and and sothat's what I'm talking about the value of
that show, where there's a guythat had this trust for us based on
what he has seen on television.And and that's and I'm not saying that,

(42:25):
you know, the vast majority ofthe public honestly is behind us.
I don't care what anybody says,the media to say whatever. The overwhelming
mass, the overwhelming population, they'rejust quiet about it, but they're really
behind us. Uh. And thenyou get you just have it. You
have a small sliver of society thatwants to hate on the cops all the
time. So uh. But butby and large, the vast majority of

(42:50):
the public is behind what we're doing. But still, even then, what
an opportunity to be able to dothat. And that's that's one of the
strengths of that show. That's oneof the reasons that I'm such an ad
it for it, and uh,it's just good and and and it's a
it's a it's it's good for peopleto see how hard we work on these
cases. What you see is whatyou get. We're not making it for
television. Well it's it's on television, but we're not changing what we're doing

(43:15):
because I mean, it's right,it's on any it's been on. That
show has been on since two thousandand four. They've had over five hundred
episodes in its entirety. Uh.And and we we've been on that show
longer than any well coming up onI think Miami has been on there the
longest, but we've actually got themost episodes that have aired on there,

(43:37):
and it's it's over one hundred andtwenty and so uh, I mean,
if you tune it to any you'relikely going to see us at some point
in time in a day. Butit's been a blessing for us. And
and I and I always tell Ialways say that because man, I mean,
other cities they should consider it becauseit just it helps with the relations
within the public. So in Tulsa, and since you lived in Tulsa,

(43:59):
for me, you know, it'spretty hard to go anywhere, especially when
I'm in uniform, not to seesomebody that's coming up to us to say
thanks and appreciate it. And we'retalking to people that generally don't talk to
the cops. You know. Well, yeah, for sure, But yeah,
that is wild. I kind ofgot sidetracked. I was I was
talking about something else and I gotsidetracked. That happens, but but I

(44:21):
but I at least I wanted tomention that that, yeah, that's that's
amazing. I wanted to I wantedto know more about that. But yeah,
the my obsession obsession cases, theOklahoma Girls Scout murders. Yep.
And that's actually heard when I wasdriving across country I had the night I

(44:47):
left Tulsa, the night I movedaway and was driving across in my ten
year old station wagon to Los Angeles, and I heard about it on my
AM radio and I was like,oh my god, what is this.
You know, that was the daythat they I just never killed the night

(45:07):
before and had been discovered. Butit really was, It really was.
And I ended up just what wasfunny was my mom again and one of
my sisters got really obsessed with thiscase and we just you know, talked

(45:29):
about it a lot, and rightabout it. I ended up coming back
to Tulsa meeting up with the formerOSBI agents that investigated it and my old
boss. I did radio news inTulsa. My old boss was the one
reporter that the murder suspect agreed tospeak with after his arrest, and I

(45:54):
think he may still be on theair. He might have retired recently.
But a guy named Richard Daldell.He went from KAKC to KRMG, you
know, which was the news radiostation. I guess, Yeah, Richard

(46:15):
told me, you know, thatthat was the case of a lifetime,
and well, what was really awfulwas he had spent so much time with
the families of the little girls andhad become you know, kind of close
with them and friends with them.And then he ended up interviewing the suspect,

(46:37):
Jean Leroy Hart, for the newsand gene Hart insisted on, you
know, providing his own questions,and they were things like what kind of
books do you like to read?And you know, so we ended up
talking about how he liked classical musicand this, that and the other.

(46:59):
And anyway, he ended up youknow, making himself look good in this
interview, and the girl's parents,you know, got really upset with Richard
and they wouldn't talk to him anymore, and he felt so bad about it.
But I did not know that.I didn't know that. But I

(47:20):
will say this for your listeners,you know, kind of it was and
I think it wasn't it three girlsthat were killed. I can't remember,
it was three, yeah, yeah, And so they were brutally I think,
raped, sexually assaulted, killed andone of the one of the little
girls. And I've never met thisguy, but uh, I know people
that know him, but uh,one of one of the one of the
one of the dads of one ofthose girls that was tragically killed, was

(47:44):
a Tulsa cop and he was adetective, wasn't he you know, I
don't remember. I think he was. I think he was. I just
don't. I don't know him.And that's one book that I haven't I
haven't read the book on that.Oh you go, I know, and
I will, I will, butI will say this just for your listeners.
You know, they actually did provehis connection to that case via that

(48:07):
he was put on trial and theyfound him not guilty, and then later
on they discovered that probably within thelast five years, that he actually he's
the killer. That they did actuallydefinitively link him to those girls via.
Yeah, it was so controversial becauseyou know, he was a member of

(48:30):
Cherokee Nation, and you know,the people, uh in the in the
in the Cherokee Nation, I justcould not accept that one of their own
would have committed this heenous, heenouscrime against children, and so they kind

(48:53):
of protected him. It was reallyinteresting though. I remember during the time
and I think it's I'm sure it'sin the book as well. But you
know, the he was a memberof this Petua band of Cherokee Indians,

(49:14):
the suspect was, and they are, you know, known as the original
people because they still practiced the oldways and the old religion. And you
know, one of the ways theydo their religion is to the stomp dance.
And they'd have these stomp dances inthe middle of the woods, you
know, at night where you know, people just knew when when to go

(49:37):
and where to go, and theywould just start showing up out of the
woods. And he was going tothose stomp dances all the time that the
manhunt was going on, which atthat time, I don't know if it
still remains, so what was thebiggest manhunt in Oklahoma history and they just
could not catch this guy even thoughhe was really hiding in plain sight.

(50:01):
Yeah. Yeah, that's an interestingcase. It's it's it's one of those
that it makes your skin crawl.It's disgusting and it's just one of the
but you know, people are fascinatedwith murder, I mean they really are.
I think that I think what itis is that that's one of the
things that why why police shows abouthomicide or movies about homicide or books about

(50:24):
homicide are actually hot items because peopleare fascinated. And I think that by
and large, you just have individualsthat are just kind of I think what
the fascination is is how another humanbeing could possibly do that to another human
and that's really what it is.Yeah, I mean, it's actually something

(50:45):
like this like the Three Little Girls, you know. Yeah, there there's
actually a I'm pretty sure it's onYouTube. Fully is a documentary that was
made by Mike Wilkerson, who wasuh I think he might have been the
lead agent on that case. Well, I'll look for it. You know.

(51:07):
That's it's called Someone Cry for theChildren. Okay, I'm going to
write that down. It pretty muchtells the story. And that's the name
of the book that they wrote.Also, so I'll tell you, I'll
tell you the deal. You know, that case right there for younger detectives.
And I'm not saying that the copsdid anything wrong. I'm just because

(51:28):
I don't know enough about the caseto really speak intelligently about that. But
nevertheless, that is a reminder tous as detectives or law enforcement to do
your job, you know, dowhat you can do to try and And
you know, that's the thing aboutbeing a homicide detective, and I tell
people this all the time, isthat this isn't a career. This is

(51:49):
really a lifestyle. And really Iheard something recently that I like even better.
It's more of a calling, itreally is. And if you're somebody
out there that that that wants todo this job, then you need to.
You need to. You need todo everything you can, todate whatever,
you know, you need to reallybelieve in it. You need to
do it. If you're not oneof those detectives, if you're one of
those detectives that does it because youwant to have the title or the business

(52:13):
card that says or be cool,or because the schedule works for you better
whatever, uh it isn't, youshouldn't be here. I mean, you're
you're you're deprived, You're you're depriving. If you're one of those people that
just does not care about the victimor their families, regardless of what the
the case was, then you probablyshould move on, you know, and

(52:34):
and and and step aside and letsomebody come in here that really really is
going to be that person that's goingto care. And that's something that I
am passionate about, and it's somethingthat that you know you need to be.
You're getting really down to the wirehere. There are little Can you
tell me what is the one casethat you just cannot forget you've worked on

(53:01):
it is going to take with you? Well, you know, I don't
know that. I've had a coupleof cases that really are disturbing. And
one of them wasn't even a casethat I was the lead detective on.
I was just a helper on it. And it was a It was a
pregnant lady that got beaten to death. She was six months pregnant and got

(53:23):
brutally beaten by her boyfriend. Andthis this abuse had been going on for
a long time, a long time. As a matter of fact, this
guy had actually been to prison forassaulting her, and she was a young
girl. They were high school sweetheartsand anyway, he went to prison for
assaulting her already, and just thethings that he did to her were horrific.

(53:46):
I It's just horrific, really,And then he after he gets out
of prison, he ended up goingto prison. She didn't want to cooperate,
and I think it was a victimlessprosecution, which I'm really proud of
the DA's office for actually doing itand sending him off to prison. And
then once he gets out, thenthe family started discovering that he was she
was maintaining contact with him, andshe called they called the police and saying

(54:08):
he's violating his protective order or whatever. But nevertheless, they ended up getting
back together. And I think itwas almost like the family news stuff was
going on, and and and thesad part about it was is that,
you know, there's a video hewould he would videotape her while she was
sitting at her recliner and she wasn'tallowed to get out, and she wasn't

(54:30):
even allowed to go to the bathroom. I mean she literally had to pee
in like a kool aid jug,you know. And and he would watch
her while he was at work,and if she ever got out of sight,
you know, then then I'm sureit was hell to pay, you
know, but yeah, yeah,and ultimately he ended up killing her.
That's one that's one that I canphysically remember. I can physically remember being

(54:53):
nauseated. And I wasn't the onlyone, it was. It was all
the detectives were like that. Andit was well, should we had a
crime scene person quit over it.I mean, that's how bad it was.
And so, uh, that's oneof them. And there's there's there's
a few others too that that thatI'm not going to say that I lay
awake at night. Well, Ijust had one recently that's a domestic case

(55:15):
that's absolutely sickening, and honestly,I've told people at work I think I
had a touch of pt PTSD fromit. I mean it's it's literally one
of those cases that just nauseates you, uh, to the point of just
it just it is sickening that thatanother human being could do something so violent
to another person. Uh. Andand I got to tell you this,

(55:37):
so in part, as disturbing asthat is, there was a moment where
I was like, Okay, good, I'm still human. Because of all
the deaths and stuff that I haveseen and been a party, it still
reminds me that I am still ahuman being and I still care and and
that's actually refreshing. Okay, ashorrible as that is, I'm still refreshed

(55:59):
somewhat and thankful that I still havefeelings and I still care about humanity.
You know. Yeah, and you'vemaintained your own humanity in spite of all
you've seen. You know, Yeah, I could understand how that would be.
It'd be really hard not to,you know, toughen up and become

(56:20):
cold, I think, or atleast try to just to save your own
sanity. So it's well, Iknow we're running, We're running close,
but you know it's I couldn't tellyou the names of all of my victims.
I couldn't tell you the names ofmy victims this year, I mean
all of them. I'd have tosit and really think hard on that.
Yeah, but I've been the leadon one hundred and eleven and I've assisted
on probably six hundred others. Thereare some of them that I absolutely remember,

(56:43):
and then there's some of them thatthat I was looking through a list
today and I was like, Idon't even remember this name or this location.
Really, it's just part of it. We see a lot of volume,
but got Ley, doesn't this goby quick? When it really does?
It really does. And guys,I hate being at a time you
have to come back again sometimes absolutelyabsolutely more murders. That's right. You

(57:07):
can just have a list of questionsready and we'll we'll cover as much ground
as possible. Well, thank youso much, Jason, I really and
if you guys want to reach Jason, he's Detective Jason White on Facebook and
he's at D E T Jason Whiteon X and Twitter and Instagram and whatever

(57:29):
they're calling themselves these days. Watchwatch my show Friday nights at seven.
We want you to watch. Andthat's a g R a yep yep into
the fire. All right, guys, thank you so much, appreciate you
all, and come on back andsee us again next time. Thanks,