101 - Star Trek Picard Production Designer Dave Blass - No Win Scenario

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I haven't listened to anything you've saidin the last twenty seconds. Damn it,
Trevor. Oh God, I hateyou so much. Well, it's
you. We can cross off thereading. I watch almost everything in the
majority of it is terrible. Whatis this podcast about? My reporter?
He's turning off? Dammit, Trevor. Hi, everybody, and welcome to
the first ever episode of No WinScenario with Don Checkter. That's me and

(00:26):
Trevor. Trevor, how are youdoing today? I thought we agreed on
no last name. Oh. Ithought no last names for you, Trevor.
I thought you're in hiding. Okay, that's fine as long as I
stay in hiding. I'm totally wellwith you in the face like that.
You should stay in hiding, myfriend. So did you did you just
ask me? How I did?I didn't actually care. I just thought
it was like a polite thing forpeople first meeting us and be introduced to

(00:48):
us. I don't really care.I gotta be honest. This is No
Win Scenario and you have already lostperfect So before we dive into the show,
I mean, you know, Idon't know if you know this,
Trevor, but I basically started podcastinglike for everyone. Twenty years ago,
my friend Isaac and I we dida podcast called The Dormac Show. It
was a single episode podcast. Didyou listen to it? I haven't listened

(01:15):
to anything you've said in the lasttwenty seconds because you're so bored. Well,
that too, was sort of aStar Trek sci fi podcast. But
back then we it was pre iPhonesand pre podcasts being popular, and so
I was ahead of the curve everybody. Now, we hadn't We had no
clue how to get it out thereto the world, so nobody saw it.
So why don't you just we shouldhave just stopped that. We had
no clue. We had no cluewhatsoever. Yeah, so that was twenty

(01:38):
years ago. That was about twentytwo years ago. I think it's what
we did, and so, youknow, I could. You know,
I'm an expert here on podcasting,but I've taken a bit of a break
to do some things, you know, created a successful production company, done
some movies, written some books.Professor sometimes here, Trevor, what exactly
do you do? I've actually beenproducing podcasts for the last four pH That's

(02:00):
why I would get you around.Okay, that's great. What kind of
podcast. However, U, Iproduce a mental health podcast for They're one
of the big mental health facilities inthe world. So do I do video
production? I do all sorts ofdigital media production for them. Well,
now I feel that I was justsaying how I feel bad making fun of

(02:22):
you, because that's actually a reallygood work, because you know, I
don't if you remember this, butyou you once worked for me for summer.
What was that like? It wasterrible? It was terrible, Yes,
but I hate your dog. Ilove your dog, but my dog
is fourteen year old and still kickin and amazing and loud shout out to
Cassidy the cockapoo listen in retrospect,I wasn't that great of an employee.

(02:46):
I would I would just kill myselfover every edit, and Don would just
be sweating me over over my shoulderand going, who cares? Just get
it out or get you know,the clients not going to know. And
the thing is as much as himsaying that irritated me. He is right.
Well, you know what, thisis not Trevor podcast about your fledging

(03:09):
career, although you're probably in yourfled forties at this point. But this
is in fact, what is thispodcast about? We should really tell people
what No Win Scenario is about.So what is our podcast about? Our
podcast is about you and I notagreeing on anything. That's that is why
we've called it No Win Scenario.We're going to talk about sci fi,

(03:30):
entertainment and technology occasionally technology and stufflike that. This basically all came out
of you and I fighting constantly overPocard season three. Well not even that.
I've been trying to get you towatch Bablon five for you know,
most of my adult life, insome of your life, and what happened
when I try to get you,well, we'll talk about We'll talk about

(03:52):
that later. I'm sure stay tunedfor that. Everybody shocking turn of events
later when I did actually watch something, Trevor asked, But we'll talk about
in our in our podcast series here, any Star Treks, maybe some Star
Wars if we're bored Babylon five,Firefly, Dune, well, so many
good things you oh my goding onDune. That is shocking. I thought

(04:14):
you love Dune. I love thevillain ofve Doo Doom, but I don't
love the David Lynch Dune, andI love Lynch Lynch is one of my
all time favorite filmmakers, and TwinPeaks is like my favorite franchise of all
time. It's just I have alittle issue with Dune, and that makes
it more insufferable when I'm sitting nextto you in a movie theater. We

(04:38):
watched a really bad print of theoriginal one, but it was what a
great, great movie five years old. This is the greatest piece of Sun.
The new one just left out somany I mean, it added a
lot. We'll get into it,and that's one of the things that that
everyone our listener. We'll hear infuture episodes. We'll do some deep dives
into shows, we'll do some rewatchingand commentary. We'll fight over specific episodes,

(05:00):
we'll fight over everything. Well,I think we can agree on something,
but we haven't found that yet,so maybe I'll figure it out that
yet. And shockingly, we dohave some structure to our shows, which
we'll get to in a little bit. But you know, let's go back
to you know, this podcast isvery mostly science fiction heavy and again no

(05:21):
one scenario, So you're saying it'ssolely because we don't agree. That's that's
why we came to this name.Pretty quickly. Is it solely well,
because I have other theorists. Ithink we come at entertainment and art in
two different directions. I'm a littleolder, a lot a lot older.
I prefer my entertainment to have anautour's voice, and it doesn't matter to

(05:46):
me whether details carry over from youknow, one entry into a franchise to
the next. You are of thedull, monotonous world building generation where everything
has to taste the same, allall the pieces have to connect everything,
and it just has to keep buildingto a bigger picture that never gets complete,

(06:09):
and eventually anybody with half a braingets tired of and walks away.
I disagree because, as we'll talkabout soon, I think season three of
Star Trek Piccard did a nice jobof completing the storyline that's been going on
for decades. It did absolutely nothing. Well, you don't have them take
a step back once more, Trevor. No win scenario though, you know

(06:29):
what does that remind you of?That name? Well, it comes from
actually, it comes from the quitepossibly the only thing we agree on,
and that's the Wrath of Khan andspecifically the Kobyashi Maru, the Kobyashi right,
the no win scenario that was sucha big part of that. But
again, as I get old,please, as I get older, actually

(06:51):
find the Kobyashi Muru to be oneof the most thought provoking things I've come
across and pop entertain So as you'reas you're there facing deaths on the doors
death pretty much. So I've gotsome bad mystery, Trevor. You know
it dawned on me that we agreedto it's very quickly. I too love
Star Trek two, so maybe thereis something that we agree on. Even

(07:13):
though I don't think it aged aswell as you might think it aged insane,
but I do. I do,in fact love it, and I
think there's a ton of parallels betweenStar Trek two and season three, the
last episode, I should say,the last raw. I do think there's
a lot of parallels. But beforewe get to it, my friend or,
Trevor, well, I don't knowif you know this, but there
is an episode of Star Trek Picardcalled no Win scenario. You do know

(07:36):
that, Oh, and that's whyI was so surprised that you were okay
with the name. That is,in fact the fourth episode. I believe
that is one of that's one ofthe nine thousand things that I have to
complain about regarding season three. Butthat episode, see that I see,
Wait a second, was that number? That was number four? That was
the one that I thought where Iwatched and I thought it really took a
turn where like, wait a second, this show might actually be something.

(07:57):
There's a voice behind the show whereyou know, at the end they get
out of this nebula. There's thisbeautiful moment with music and these like space
squid that show up and it hasthis sort of scientific Star Trek you know,
moment that's beyond just the sort ofcat and mouse thing to seek out
me alive. I think we shouldboldly get the hell out of here.

(08:22):
Yeah, I agree with you.There, I'll give you episode four.
Episode four was very good to me. That was a turning in four other
episodes in the series, well thatis to me. It was the turning
point two. I thought, Ithought it was going to continue with that
kind of vision and very quickly abandoned. Well, this is awkward because all
our special guests are gonna be StarTrek Pocard season three special guests. I'm
Dave Blast, I'm the production designeron Star Trek. To Card and Liz

(08:46):
Quikouski. I'm an art director knownfor Star Trek to Card. My name
is Todd Marks. I'm a computervideo playback supervisor projects like Star Trek Card.
Well, you're gonna have to doa lot of give me, forgive
me. I know. I'm DaveLast. I'm the production designer on Star

(09:09):
Trek The Card seasons two and three. But as as a whole, I'm
a production designer in the film andtelevision industry. Everyone's like, I have
no idea what that is. Productiondesigner is the guy who takes the script
read descript and says, this showtakes place on a space ship, or
it takes place in a coal mine, or it takes place in a bar,

(09:31):
and it's up to me to workwith the creative team and figure out,
Okay, how do we do this. Do we go to a bar,
do we build a space ship?Is it a visual effect? And
how do we turn the what's onthe page into reality? So I'm gonna
turn the page into reality. Guy, you grew up in Ashland, Massachusetts,
and you were on a path.I mean, you decided to be

(09:52):
a filmmaker at some point early on. Yeah, in high school I was
one of those lucky few people whohad a career goal figured it out early
and then just you know, Isaid, you know, to my guidance
counselor, I'm like, I wantto go to Hollywood and work on Star
Trek. They're like, well,don't you think you come up with a
more realistic goal. I'm like,no, it's a that's a fantasy goal.
I would like to use the spaceshipsand they're just like, yeah,

(10:16):
that's just not going to happen.I'm like that me, so I wish
I took that that but yeah,and then you just kind of figure it
out. But this is you know, when I'm coming up with these stupid
ideas. It's in the eighties.At that time, there is you know,
there there was no Star Trek.The next generation. Uh, the
Star Trek movies were coming to youknow, we were until I think Star

(10:39):
Trek four about that time. Soeven though it had been you know,
so it wasn't like those were goingto go on for another extended period of
time. So you know, soit was just kind of an idea.
And I started out going to goingin northern California, trying to get in
an ilm who did all the visualeffects and everything that didn't work, and
then I relocated to down to southernCalifornia. You've been Emmy nominated a bunch

(11:03):
of times, but you're also,if I read this right, you're an
Is it an honorary Kentucky colonel?Is that what I was reading? You're
you're an official Kentucky colonel? Sofrom National mass to Kentucky colonel, what's
uh exactly you should be addressing meas Colonel Blast? But but yeah,
No, I did a TV showcalled Justified, which took place in Kentucky

(11:26):
and I love Justified. Yeah,and I love it. Justified. Uh
was the probably the biggest example orone of the biggest examples of showing Kentucky
culture. And it all took place. We all shot it in southern California,
so not one frame was we neverwas ever shot in Kentucky. However,

(11:50):
the people of Kentucky saw the showand what I did with the show
and recreating the hollers in the inthe in the feeling of Appalachia, and
they fell that it was representative oftheir culture and the fact that we went
the extra mile to try and replicatenot just the you know, oh pretend
we're in Kentucky. It's like,no, we're trying to replicate the nuance

(12:11):
and the whole style of things.And I think that there's a a very
negative connotation to the term hillbilly,and that's kind of a pejorative for these
people. And once you know,I've spent a lot of time in the
hollers of Kentucky, and once youget to know these people and you understand

(12:31):
them and how challenging their lives havebeen over decades, it really showcases how
they live. And that's what Itry to do with my design work.
And the folks from Harlan, Kentucky, it's a real town saw that I
had met with them many times andI helped establish a Justified Museum exhibit there

(12:54):
for their tourism department because all thesepeople travel and they all now go to
Harlan because of Justified. And atthe time, there was nothing, you
know, as we never shot there. It wasn't like, oh, you
here's the location, so people wouldjust go and it's like, oh,
this is Harlan. But it gavepeople a focal point to do it,

(13:16):
and so it became this this bigtourist attraction thing. Just because of something
I did to give back to thepeople of Kentucky. So uh, and
for that they honored me as aKentucky colonel. It's amazing. And so
you were nominated for two Emmy's correct, Yeah, Art Direction Direction three excuse
me three for that. So itwas at each time losing the Game of

(13:37):
Thrones. So I don't bring thattalk about talk about mental health. It's
like, literally, I'm gonna youknow, it's like when I go crazy,
we'll be done. No, no, no, no, no no.
It's like, yeah, well,I know this isn't the equivalent of
an Emmy job, but Justified isway better than Game of Thrones. Yeah,
that's what I say too. Yeah, I'm not a fan of Game
with This is maybe a tough question, but like those those Emmy nominations and

(14:03):
and that work. You know,has that been so far the highlight of
your profercial career or has it beenwrapping up the card recently or wrapping up
the card? Definitely? I mean, you know everything, you know,
because I mean literally, it's itwas the the arc of my career was
too when I started out to goto Star Trek and then actually, you
know, it is the My teachersweren't wrong when they said it's impossible.

(14:26):
What I did was impossible when yourealize that when I started out, only
three other people had designed Star Trekor four, I think four at that
point. But so it was liketo sit there and say, oh,
you're choosing a career path where onlyfour people have ever done it before,
and you're a kid and you don'trealize, you know, the adults are

(14:46):
supposed to go, Okay, that'sjust not you know. It's like it's
like saying I want to be inthe Beatles, or you know, it's
like I want to be but yeah. So so to actually then land end
up on Star Trek, getting inthe opportunity not only to to do the
show, but to get the job, to do the thing, and then
to stick the landing, as wedid with season three of Piccard, that's
pretty amazing. So how was itthat you came to Piccard. I had

(15:11):
met with him for Discovery at onepoint and that didn't work out, and
I was on a Marvel show calledghost Rider that imploded, and we were
shooting at the same State studios wherethey're doing Picard, And in fact,
we had some sound stages. Welent them to Piccard for season one,

(15:31):
and so then they knew me.They knew it was that I was in
the loop and whatever. And thenwhen ghostwriter went down and Todd Tronowsky,
who did season one Piccard, heleft, I was kind of like right
there, right there, so youknow, they call me. Then it
turned out, you know that TerryMattalis, the show runner, we both
went to Emerson College in Boston,both knew the same people, we had

(15:54):
friends and things of that nature.Both huge Star Trek bands. So we
clicked and and and it went fromthere. So then all of a sudden,
bang, I'm doing I'm doing StarTrek. Terry right, he was
an assistant or something to Voyder Ibelieve you know. I mean to go
from that to running is that's quiteremarkable as well. It is. It's
a it's you know, and he'ssuch a great visionary and hopefully he gets

(16:17):
to do more Star Crek or moresomething else. Yeah, would you would
you? Would you pop on legacyif it happens? Oh yeah, I
mean it's again it people people alllike to say, it's what you did.
It's like, you know, there'sit's show business and you know,
we're people do to work, youknow, doing and we'll get into the
mental health aspects. But uh,it's not like you know, people think

(16:40):
it's like, you know, somethinglike Star Trek. It's like, oh,
there's just like people sitting around waitinguntil Start TWK goes and then you
know, they pop out of thewaiting room and then they joined the show.
It's like you gotta pay your rentand work. And it's like when
when we started back up for aseason two, I mean it's it's a
great uh story anecdote that gets told, you know, I, you know,
the band back together. Well Icalled everywhere. No one's available because

(17:03):
they're all in all the shows.So it became that thing. I'm going,
oh, it's like, well,wouldn't it be great to get all
these people back. And it's like, well, they weren't all just sitting
you know, on their couches waitingfor day last a call. They were
you know, Mikakudo was on forAll Mankind and Doug Drexler was on Orble
and you know, so that's theway it will be. So it's like
what I liked, what I loveto do legacy, Sure, but you

(17:25):
know you're working, Well, we'renot working, and we're not working in
this case. Yeah, yeah.The next call that comes, it's like,
it's a donut commercial. I'm doingit, and it's like, why
didn't you do legacy those on adonut commercial? What do you want me
to do? And I think that'ssomething that's important that a lot of people
don't understand about the industry. Rightit's either you're working, and then there's
so much job in security for everybodyabout what's going to come next. You're

(17:45):
on a show, you're on aseries, whatever it is. You know.
I had a friend who years agotold me I just pitched a show
to J. J. Abrams andnow I'm going to the unemployment office to
check. You know. It's it'sso is that kind of yeah, Oh
it's horrible. It's it's and youget used to it. But it's just

(18:06):
gotten next level toxic in the lastsay six years, because it's probably sixty
eight years because of also runaway productionand you know, and because it's not
only the do you have a job, it's where is your job? And
who are you working with? Andwhat's the situation? Because it used to

(18:29):
be, you know, for years, all the production. Most of the
production was done in Los Angeles,and you'd, especially if you were doing
TV, you know, you'd goto work, you know, every day
at Warner Brothers for twenty two episodesand you'd work for a year on a
on a on a season of aTV show, and you have your things.
And that's what it was. Butnow with the streaming world, everything's

(18:51):
cut down to ten episodes if ifif that, and it's not done in
LA it's done in Atlanta or NewOrleans or New Mexico or Toronto or you
know any you know, yeah,Bulgaria exactly. You look at you know,
something like Netflix Wednesday. I mean, the show takes place in Vancouver

(19:11):
and Vermont, and they should bein Bulgaria or Budapest wherever. The so
I mean, if you think aboutit and why, and and that spins
back to the whole situation that we'rein right now with the with the writer's
strike. And I'm one hundred percentbehind the writers. I think that they
deserve what they need to get.And but on the flip side, the

(19:34):
result of it will be more Budapestbecause they you know, the studios don't
don't have the money because I'm orif they do, they just don't spend
it because I'm the you know,the first guy who gets the we don't
have any money, uh, youknow thing, and we don't have any
money, and thus we're in Budapestshooting a show to take place in Vermont.

(19:55):
So but but that just means thatevery six months you're jumping on a
plane finding anywhere to go somewhere else, and you know, and then that
you know, that takes a tollon people's families and you know, and
all that other stuff. So well, outside of like traveling to other locations,
I know, one of the questionsthat Trevor was was was hoping to
ask you, So I'm gonna jumpin here and just steal it from him.

(20:17):
But yeah, other than you know, flying to Budapest or something and
moving around, like you know,can you talk about how like filming in
volumes, you know, like thatto me seems like a big money saver
versus you know, being out locationor building sets and and sort of how
you know your experience with that andyou know, well, for folks who

(20:38):
don't know what it is, thevolume is is basically a big curved TV
screen. It's like a big screenlike That's the example is if you go
to like a concert, the bigscreen that's behind the band that has video
on it. It's like that,but it's a big curved one so that
when you're standing in front of it, as opposed to the way it used
to be down where you put ablue screen up there and add the stuff

(21:00):
later. You now have this videoscreen and you add this stuff at the
time you're shooting the challenges. It'sit's a massive paradigm shift for the fix
it in post versus now you haveto do it in pre production. So
you're looking at a matter of likelet's just say twenty to thirty weeks to

(21:23):
create the digital assets to go onthe wall, which means that the script
pads to be done. The writershave to you know everything, Everyone has
to know what it is it's goingto go on the screen. The director
has to chime in. So itchanges a lot of things because normally a
director comes in a week or two, maybe a month before starting shooting.
So now all of these decisions haveto be done well, well in advance,

(21:48):
and often before the director gets hired. Then director comes on, it's
like that it's not going to workfor my vision and then it becomes problematic.
So but that's the main thing,which is you completely we'll go from
you know, you have to doa lot more upfront, and it just
changes the crewing and staffing and andall that stuff. Was the use of
volume a life saving band aid duringCOVID. We didn't use it at all

(22:11):
during during PCARD For some shows itwas I mean, really the deal Discovery,
right, I discovered use it quitea bit. Yeah, and but
the but the main problem is thatit didn't. It helped a little bit
during COVID, but you know,not on because but but not really because
most of the stuff I'm just like, something like Discovery that they were going

(22:33):
to that they put on the volumewould be something that you would put in
in blue screen so that you knowit's it's the same thing, and it's
not really I don't know, seelike I personally, I've directed I directed
one project on a volume. Ididn't love it. I'm finding if the
future technology like the green screen withunreal, Okay, I get that a
little bit better. I'm just findingnot every show, but a lot of

(22:55):
shows I find that I hate tosay this to something the industry. But
I feel like sometimes the blocking orthe dp's end up being a little bit
lazy. When a volume's in playand every feels very flat. You're very
limited to only a few focal linkswith volume. I mean That's what I've
seen consistently, and and that endsup lending to I just feel like I'm

(23:21):
seeing, you know, the samerange of camera shots or like even like
watching like the show like The Mandalorian, I feel like, you know,
I was watching with my wife andI'm like and cut and cut because I
just saw they were just picking aspot to walk to and that was unchanged
it. So yeah, it's it'sit's adult, it's a money saving thing.
It's but again you look, youlook. I mean John Favreau is

(23:45):
a magician, and he and theydid with that, especially season one,
in creating all that from scratch andlearning it, so it's like brand new.
Yeah. Yeah, it gives you, it gives you the ability to
do these things without going to thedesert. I mean again, Uh.
The other thing I'll give them kudosto is Mandolorian shot in Los Angeles,
So you they did the thing whichis like, oh no, we're gonna

(24:08):
shoot it an all in Hollywood figureout how to do it, do it,
do something whatever, and is aperfect no, it's but it's a
TV show. If you imagine takingthat and then going back to the you
know, the nineteen eighties Battlestar Galacticoor you know any other sci fi show
that you know you would do onan episodic weekly basis. Now we're just
so used to these massive scale TVshows that feel like they should be on

(24:33):
on in a movie theater, andyou know, we're like, oh,
well you can look at this andit's like, well, yeah, you're
right, it's not whatever, it'sa TV show. And but now,
you know, the the expectations keepclimbing. But as you've seen now,
the budgets and what everyone wants toget paid is climbing as well. So
and also then the audience doesn't wantto pay for everything. So it's like

(24:57):
that's why Netflix had to say,Okay, we're done with the share your
password with you know, nine peoplethings. So it's we're coming into a
weird world. But I think thevolume is going to become more of a
thing. But it's a it's atool like anything else, and you just
got to get people who know howto use the tools rather than just you

(25:18):
know, show up and point acamera. I mean, I'm seeing great
examples of it being used. Ithought Greg cinematographer Greg Frasier, the way
he used it and the way heused it in The Batman, I mean,
I didn't know that that so manyof those shots were volume until you
know, until afterwards, there isI mean, of course that movie had

(25:40):
a huge budget and a lot ofresources, but it is an early technology,
and I think once the positive isis that people will learn how to
be more creative with it. Yeah. Well, and also once the the
i mean the volume walls are Ijust did a project with the folks up
here on the volume at picks aMoto and once the screens and everything,

(26:03):
you know, it's paid for,then they can more shows can do it.
But it's it's going to be athing. But you need the combination
of the people designing the elements andthe people shooting it to all be in
synergy together, otherwise it just becomesa hot mess. And and that's the
other thing is you just you know, you're moving the digital concept artists and

(26:26):
people creating the elements from the visualeffects world, which is a non union
world over to the production side,which is a union world, and how
does that all work and affect thebudget? So it's a it's a lot
of it's a lot of stuff.So but before we sort of hand the
silver to you, Trevor, Ido I just won't want to get a

(26:48):
sense of, you know, alittle bit more of a deep dive into
sort of like a typical day foryou, you know, from you're you're
brought onto Let's talk about Piccard.It brought to Piccard through sort of that
run. What's the sort of dayto day look like it? Really,
it really depends on Pcard. Weshot and wonder called blocks blocks of two
episodes, so one director would comein and do two up two episodes at

(27:10):
a time, so depending on youknow, we the monumental difference between season
two in season three was huge,even though we shot the series back to
back, so there was no actualbreak between season two and season three.
We finished season two on our Friday, started season three on a Monday shooting,
so there was no even breaking.But in season two there's a lot

(27:33):
of locations, so the day wouldprobably start jumping in a scout, banning,
going and looking at locations with directorsand producers and stuff and looking at
seeing what we will what we like, and then also at the same time,
either before we go scouting or youknow, in the mix, I'm
working with the crew that is shooting, because you know, we're shooting and

(27:53):
prepping episodes at the same time.So not only my building sets, but
I have to deal with the directorwho is shooting the sets that had been
built two weeks ago. So it'sa juggling act of you know, I'm
working on probably six episodes at atime. So now I heard you in
another podcast say that you said StarTrek is a historical drama that takes place

(28:15):
in the future with sixty years ofhistory. Is that roughly what you said?
So, you know, in termsof pressure, like knowing that it's
such a big property, you know, is there does the pressure from studio,
from directors, from show runner orfrom the fandom. Is that something
that that that plays a part oris that this is just this is my
gig. I happen to love itbecause I was always wanted to do Star

(28:37):
Trek and this is my gig andignore all that. No, it well,
can I do a lot of youknow, and again this thing.
Now, I do a lot ofintellectual properties, so it's comic books and
even just five was based on aSo I mean, but you know,
Star Trek is an easy one tosit there and say, oh, this
is a pressure. It's like,well, yeah, because you know,

(28:59):
you be well, the fans don'trealize that you get a director comes in
to shoot the an episode. Theymay never have have seen an episode,
you know, and they have noidea who the characters are or not only
you know, or they may haveyou know, they know mister Spock or
something like that. But they mayknow and then even worse, they may
not care. They may not careyou know how you who fires the phasers

(29:23):
or where they sit or whatever.So all that's information that you have to
to work with them and get themand do it in a way that you
know gives empowers them. But doesn'tyou know, tie their hands and things.
And the same thing with the youknow, cast members. It's like,
you know, it's that crazy thingof going the guy sits down at
the at the console to do thething. Who tells them how to do

(29:48):
the thing? I mean, that'syou know, in reality, it's that
it's a question that doesn't get asked. It's like, well, whose job
is it to tell the you know, the guy flying the ship how to
fly the ship? Is that oppositethem? When you have someone like canthan
Freaks come into direct to us suchdeep knowledge of stuff, is that do
you have the opposite kind of experience? Oh yeah, it's yes, and
and and I would say Freaks isprobably one in my top five of favorite

(30:11):
people in the in the entire galaxy. Working with him is just such not
only does his star to acknowledge,but he's just such a fun and talented
person. You're like, who's lessstressed this week? But but even that,
I you know, I remember havinga thing with between Freaks and Terry
going okay, you're not doing theway it the way he should be and

(30:33):
they're like, yeah, okay.I'm like, but you're not doing the
way you should be and they're likeokay. And I'm like, I'm gonna
go away because you guys outrank me. But just you know, if the
fans say something, I'm pointing itat you Freaks and no one noticed,
so they were right and I waswrong. But you know, it's that,
it's that thing. But yes,he's having someone coming in like freaks
helps. But then you know,uh, you know, there's other people

(30:57):
who don't know, and they're justlike, yep, to me what I
need to know. And you know, you give me the Star Trek stuff,
I'll do the directing stuff. Andif I do something that's not bumping
on you and just tell me andwe'll fix it. So I have a
few friends at work in the industry, and I went to film school in
the nineties and so I'm in mylate forties, and so they've been in

(31:18):
the industry for a while. Andwhen we talk, they're constantly talking about,
you know, how how little moneythere is, how how long the
schedules are, how deliverables or deadlines, turnarounds are really quick. Days are
extremely long. There's not a lotof free time for family and friends,
and and they would talk about mentalhealth stuff. But the thing that they

(31:41):
talk most about was reliance on drugsand stuff like that. Now, in
the past a few years, technologieshave changed incredibly. You've had the pressures
from COVID. Now you have tohave COVID people on set just to make
sure everything's going well so you canget your insurance bond. Uh, there's

(32:06):
you've got pressure coming from you know, the the industry having an effect from
people making a d I y theirown DIY industry with TikTok, Instagram and
other social media. Have you seenI'm assuming because I've been seeing it myself.

(32:27):
Uh and I'm an outsider. Justall of these pressures creating a mental
health and epidemic in the industry.Oh yeah, and you know, you
just it's it's it's a stress andit's seeing how people deal with the stress.
And yeah, I mean it's it'sa very hard thing because you know,

(32:50):
no matter what happens, there's thethere's never even even though the budgets
go up, people started talking abouthow much you know, this show make
costs or to do the expectations keepgoing up the amount of time, and
and then that's the other thing.It's like, you know, oh,
how do we you know, howdo we save money? And they,
you know, they come up withall these crazy stupid ways to save money

(33:13):
that make people's heads explode, Buthead exploding doesn't cost money, so it
just you know, they save money. So we're going to do this,
like this crazy concept to double updays. So like on The Boys,
we did this a lot, whichwas the So if you're shooting for fourteen
days on an episode, the firstday and the last day of the episode,

(33:34):
they'll shoot overlapping episodes. So youknow, episode seven will shoot on
that day and episode eight, sothey'll have two crew crews of people going
and they'll bring in additional people,and so there'll be two different things shooting
on those those first and last days. Because then if you add that up
over the course of the show,you're saving like two weeks of filming time

(33:59):
and and and all the costs thesound stages, the rentals. This that
uh, it saves millions of dollars. But a lot of people are doing
twice as much work because you're nowtwo think shows to and then there's you
know, they bring in some newpeople, but some people are just doing
twice as much work and for thesame amount of money. So you're seeing

(34:22):
you're seeing quicker burnout. Oh yeah, yeah, I mean it's like and
also the you know, that's theother thing, which is the industry has
been growing exponentially over the last youknow, fifteen years. There's so many
shows and so and then the skillset of people. It used to be

(34:43):
a much tighter, etting, tighterknit thing. And now it's the industry
has gone global. So you havea combination of people that are really skilled
and a combination of people who areworking on a ton of projects just because
there's no one else available, right, so's there's a mixture. And then
as horrible and whatever the COVID was, it exposed this really interesting thing where

(35:12):
people like, oh remember that forthat, you know, six months where
I had to work from home andI didn't have to wear pants. Uh
yeah, I want to go backto doing that. I don't want to
have to go into the office anymore. I was able to be at home
with my kids and my walk mydog whenever I wanted to do it,
and take care of my sick motheror whatever, and still do my job.

(35:32):
And I didn't have to drive,you know, especially in LA like
an hour to work every every morning. You know, people spend I mean
you just think about it's like intraffic, an hour to work, an
hour home. That's two hours ofyour life that you spend sitting in a
box. And if you are workingfrom home, you don't have to do
that and you save all So Ihave so many know, so many people

(35:54):
that are like, yeah, Idon't want to go into the office anymore,
And the studios are saying, well, that's less office space, that's
less things that we have to do. And you know, especially during COVID,
it's like, oh, that's oneless COVID test to do. That's
great. I'm like, okay,but now I have all these people disconnected.

(36:15):
It used to be that that hivemind where everyone would sit around a
conference table will share ideas and things. Now everyone's sitting at home doing their
own thing, not looking at thedesk of the guy next to him and
see what he's doing, being inspiredby it and connecting and seeing, oh,
he's doing this. My wall thatI'm doing here, it has to

(36:36):
go up against his wall. That'sthere. They need to match, you
know, because they're sitting at home. You get there and then the walls
end up like that and then youhave to redo it all. So,
but that was a big issue duringthe car because you know, I assembled
the dream team as everyone calls it, of Star Trek designers and it wasn't
until just recently in Vegas that wewere all in the same room together.

(36:58):
So we were never in the sameroom together. While we were doing the
show. Is there is there somethingthat you found that you do to kind
of keep your stress level down.No, you just have to find a
version of his end. But it'sit's hard because you know, it doesn't
film, production doesn't stop. It'sjust it's a it's a bulldozer that just

(37:21):
keeps rolling forward, and it's like, you know, you have to find
a way to put the blocks infront of the bulldozer otherwise, you know,
it doesn't stop. And keep thoseconnections with your family or friends something
and trying to do something like that. Yeah, I would say, yeah,
I would say that that I've lostmost of my I don't want to
say lost, but it's like I'mnot good friends with most of my people

(37:42):
I was friends with six years ago, because every I would say more like
eight years ago. But over thelast eight years, I'm constantly every six
months on the road and you're justlike, you don't you don't have that
social you know. I used toplay ice hockey and I you know,
you hang out with the guys afterthe game everything. But if you're not

(38:04):
playing hockey, you're not hanging outwith the guys. You don't talk to
the guys a thing and or whateverwhatever it happens to be. You're you
know, I did you know backto back to back. I was in
Atlanta for four jobs, when it'sin uh, New Mexico for for two
different jobs, New Orleans, Torontoover multiple jobs. So you're never in

(38:24):
the same place, and it's likeyou just you know, so you lose
and then you just land in thereand say, well, what are you
doing in Atlanta when you don't knowanyone and you have to re establish things.
So it's it's a real uh,it's a real challenge and I know
that a lot of people. That'sa major impact for people, and it's
going to be a bigger impact comingout of the strike because you know it

(38:46):
the money. I would like tosay, you know, studios, please
take the money out of your pocketsand put it into the thing. But
in the same in the same token, people are going to want bigger shows
than they want whatever. So they'renot going to say, oh, we'll
do a smaller version of Game ofThrones. It's like, well, no,

(39:07):
you can still want this version ofGame of Thrones. You just will
have this much money, so you'llhave to figure out how to do it.
You know that for this and youknow, and we usually what it
is is it's with you know,my team have four less guys or you
know, whatever it is. Sowe're sort of inundated with prequels, right,
we have been since two thousand andand you know, when you're when

(39:29):
you're thinking about creating a prequel orus as audience watching prequels, you know,
it seems like there would be youknow, in production design, like
this almost restriction where you know wherethings are gonna be in you know,
in the story, in the storylinefuture, and so you know, maybe
you're you're sort of restricted in whatyou can sort of conceive of because you

(39:50):
know that the X has to endup to why whereas in Picard you had
this like history, but like thefuture was could be anything? Is that
true or just you know, arethey you know the same thing, well
to a certain extent, I mean, the future can be whatever. But
and but you know the problem iswhat the Hollywood houses. And again it's

(40:12):
not the writers having been there.It's the idea that the studios want something
marketable. I mean, if youthink about it, Barbie has been sitting
there for decades, no one didit, and it's like, and what
Greti Growing did with that is magic, It's perfect. I saw the movie.
It's like people, you know,I love that people are complaining.
I'm like, it's Barbie I had. I had a guy angrily walk out

(40:36):
during my first screening of it andit was wild. Yeah. I'm just
like, okay, I'm like it. So but the problem is that,
you know, now that Barbies cameout, they're like, oh, well,
let's do this, and it's like, nope, hire an artist like
Gretit Growing, like Terry Mattalis.Let them take the thing and do their

(40:57):
thing with it. What we've runinto doing is that, you know,
it's show business, and it usedto be you know, as we saw
in the seventies and that where thatHollywood didn't you know, the bruisers didn't
really understand what they're doing. Theygot a bunch of creative people to go
do crazy stuff. I mean,can you imagine going into a studio right
now and pitching Caddyshack and it's likeor Ghostbusters or or or you know,

(41:22):
Big Trouble in Little China. It'sjust any of these these just bizarre things.
But I just you know, forme, I'm like I look at
Caddyshack going. The person who wroteit was high, the person that you
everyone was high, including the peoplewho approved to give them millions of dollars
to do it. But now that'snot a thing and all it's all this

(41:43):
super corporate you know, analyze what'sthe IP type of thing, and then
you end up and then you knowto the extent that we're still doing you
know that that you know, it'sfaded a little bit, but not really
reboots. It's like, you know, name me a reboot other than maybe
like Galactica that had that in anyway came close to to what the original

(42:07):
did. I mean, I wastalking with some friends about it, and
we were going down the list ofthings like RoboCop and Conan and and and
Total Recall and just you know,dirty Dancing and and foot Loose and it
just you're going to wait, theydid they remain and they you can just
keep going on the on the onesthat you're you're just going and I and

(42:28):
you're like, I don't remember thator you saw it, and you're like
why It's like no one, likeno one remembers the new RoboCop movie,
Like no one, And yet youknow, the original is still classics,
still out there, but it's like, but the studio will keep finding a
way. Yeah, and you know, and Disney's now found on the creative
way to do it was we're goingto take our animated films make them live

(42:51):
action, and and and and youknow, they've got that whole thing.
And then you know, and everycomic book that adds out there that's getting
adapted, and I mean, I'mon, you know, with I had
I actually done a ghostwriter, Iwould have done four Garth Garth Ennis projects
that he had worked on that Iwere brought to screen. So it's like

(43:13):
any comic book that's out there isbeing done and being mined for things.
So because people like, well theythe comic book, people like it,
so we'll do it. And thenwhen they do the comic book, they're
like, well, we don't wantto actually be like the comic book to
kind of like the comic book,but we're going to do our own thing.
And yeah, so originality is beingforced out. I think it is.
And it's like because his originality isscary. I mean, I would

(43:36):
say if you look at someone likeJames Cameron, Avatar is people should study
that film and the intellect that wentinto that film, knowing that he created
this whole mythos in his head,designed the process to shoot at the three

(43:57):
D and again, you see threeD it's not really a thing in the
theaters anymore. It was like ahot thing for a while. It's because
much like the nostalgia, three Dis a tool that all of a sudden,
they just started, you know,using it to paint houses with.
And it's like, no, Cameronused that tool, and the new one
did it just as I mean,I want to say just as well.
I think very well. But thefact that The Avatar Too is one of

(44:22):
the top grossing movies of all timemakes absolutely no sense with all because it's
like it was set up to faileveryone after the fact, like Avatar one
was this the story was and thenand then the new one comes out and
it's like oh yeah, and thenit's like and it does huge numbers and

(44:42):
you're like, he just did itagain, how did he do that?
And although I wonder how much ofthat is post COVID kind of getting back
into theaters too, so you know, like top Gun and all that stuff.
Yea, again, Yeah, it'sit's a thing. But you know,
but that said, you look atand going, you know, the
guy does original with the exceptional.I guess aliens too original, coming up

(45:08):
with original ideas and saying here's whatI want to do and consistently does it
well. I mean, and Ithink Christopher Nolan is now doing that as
well, and having come out andcome out. But he started with the
Batman's It's like, you know,he was deep into those and that gave
him a starting. But I thinkthat people who are able to do that
on it you do want. LikeQuentin Tarantino, I had a chance to

(45:30):
meet with him. A friend ofmine was the accountant on Kill Bill,
and we went to the producer's housefor the going way party before they went
to trying to go shoot it,and we're sitting at the table and and
he came out. Quentin came upwith the table and I said, I
just want to say I read thescript and I was like blown away.
It was the best Paige Turner Iever Just the way he writes it.

(45:52):
He's like she pulls out a bigmotherfucking state knife and in the script and
it's just and as it came outof my mouth, I realized, holy
shit, I just told the directorof the film that has him come out
that I read his script and I'mgonna get everyone in trouble. And he
was He's like, oh, didyou get to the part where they got
to it. I'm like, ohmy god, damny and he was just
so. But it's like, giveQuinton Darren you know, money because you

(46:15):
know, and that's what the studiodid when Kill Bill, because if Killed
Bill was originally one movie, onescript, and they're getting into it and
they're like, dude, you're shootingso much stuff and he's like, I
know, I know, I can't. I'm gonna try and cut it down
and do that. And they're like, well, before you cut it down,
could you could you take it andmake it two movies? And he's
like, well, yeah, Icould do that, and they're like,

(46:36):
go make your movie. And theygot both Killed Bills, where I think
it was like eighty eighty million dollarsand then you know, it's like for
the student, and that was youknow, Merrimax back in the day,
going give Quinton his money. We'regonna make our money back. It's not
a big deal. And but youknow, I think that age twenty four
is probably the only thing that wehave going right now that is close to
that where they're taking artists and givinghim a little bit of money and letting

(46:59):
him fly. So I think,yeah, so finally, what's next for
you? Wait? What can weI'm waiting for a managed commercial or I'm
always shooting manaed commercial, That's whatI do. Yeah, I mean anything
at all. I mean it's likeso, I mean the way you know,
talk about mental health. The problemwith you know, design is we're

(47:20):
the first people who get hired onshows, and you know, we're the
people who when the studios are,oh, we're gonna start doing this thing.
Oh, but there's a strike comingup. Do we really want to
have a giant spaceship sitting on ayou know, the sound stage that cost
us two hundred thousand dollars a week? Because you know, we're going back
to things time and money. Soif we build the spaceship at City on

(47:42):
the stage, we're going to payfor the stage every week. So we
should make Dan well sure. Andeveryone knew. Everyone knew in January that
the strike was going to happen,so they stopped starting new projects in January.
So I've been out sitting sitting onthe on the bench for a lot
longer than I would normally like andthen and even like jobs that I would

(48:04):
interviewing forward that uh, you know, several of the Star Trek Show New
Star Trek Shows, we're start supposedto start in May, and they were
like, yep, no, we'restarting in May. We're gonna start in
May. And it's like no,so uh, you know, people are
like, oh, you're gonna youknow when Legacy It's like, well,
Legacy isn't a thing. It's youknow, it's a it's a it's a
it's an idea. Uh. Youknow, the studio would have to call

(48:27):
Terry and say, Terry, wewant you to you know, we're gonna
book you for this thing, getyour team together, come up with an
outline we want to want to dothis thing, and then after you know,
three months or whatever, they go, okay, we're gonna greenlight this
thing. Then we can start.Actually, so if they called Terry the
day the strike ends, we're intotwenty twenty four before Terry is able to

(48:51):
say, hey, we're doing theshow called Legacy, uh, and we're
gonna start talking and moving forward.So by then you know I've already had
to sell my house and and whatnot. So I mean it's it's going to
get out. I know lots ofpeople and this is not hyperbole, people
who are losing their homes and thechallenges that the It's not just the actors

(49:14):
and writers who are striking. Everyonedown that way, everyone down the line,
the sign shops, it's the florists, is the caterers, it's the
people who are supporting. And whenthe strike is over, they will have
no more. They will not havebenefited. People aren't prepared for how that.
You know, the studios are gonnalike CBS is gonna take Yellowstone and
move it from their paramount network andput it on the CBS, and car

(49:37):
dealers are gonna go, wow,Yellowstone, we can buy an ad And
Yellowstone was on CBS on Thursday night. Yeah, and they're gonna make a
ship tone of things because more thanhalf the country has a seen Yellowstone and
those that have seen it, we'llprobably watch it again. So they have
And also the CBS makes money,CBS Online or you know the online be

(49:59):
the streamers don't make money. SoI mean, you know, you look
at you can look at Netflix asa good example of how much money they
lost in their their share price.So it's gonna be a thing. And
uh, and lives are going tobe ruins, you know. So a
lot of mental health issues coming up. So well, let's let's end Happy
Notes dream project. Let's working onStar Trek dream project going forward. What's

(50:21):
your what's your dream? I'd loveto work with Terry again and do legacy
and start from scratch and and andwhatnot. I mean, it's like,
for me, I thought it wasa missed opportunity by all because when start
trick, I mean, but thepart of the problem with that Legacy is
that we shot season two and threeback to back. We keep saying that.

(50:43):
But when season two aired and wasdone, there wasn't a damn person
in the world going, you know, let's start talking about doing more of
this. They didn't, so thestudio didn't, so no one thought about
it. And it wasn't until seasonthree dropped and everyone started bing, wow,
then then we want more of it. It wasn't like halfway through that
we want more legacy. And thenso if there's a different show, I

(51:04):
mean, it's a completely different show. I mean, but it wasn't for
the studio, and that's that.Yeah. So but at that point it
had they someone, you know,they really get motivated, they should have
said, hey, we should it'sgoing to take us six months to rebuild
the enterprise, g and do allthese things. We should start doing it
now, so when the strike isover all the sets are built that we

(51:25):
would you know, our core sets, and then we can start you know,
going. But it you know,so if again, if Terry gets
the call, he gets three monthsto develop his stuff, then it's another
six months to build all the stuff, and you know, you're looking at
twenty twenty year before anyone's you know, seeing anything called legacy. So well,

(51:46):
thank you so much for your time. We super appreciate it. Yeah,
thank you, Dave, really appreciateit. No problem at all.
Thank you guys for having me.And it's a really fascinating topic, the
combination of but I think, yeah, I think that it's a bigger deep
dive in the mental health and inthe Hollywood. I would love to see

(52:07):
someone do a deep dive on theuse of drugs in Hollywood, and just
not only just the coping drugs,but the you know, recreational things and
so everyone's doing like maintenance drugs thatget them through the day, and you
know, they keep them on onsome version of an even keel or keep

(52:28):
them whatever, as opposed to I'mgoing to get stoned out of my mind
and write this crazy stuff and youknow, be in a different place.
So now everyone's just trying to maintainan even keel level of drugs. But
I find that the drugs are stillthere. People are tons of people that
are doing it. But it's nota happy places drug. It's a more

(52:49):
of a morose drug. A lotof people are using drugs uppers and amphetamans
just to do their job. Andthat tells me that the expectations of these
jobs are are not manageable. Inmy opinion that yeah, well, I

(53:10):
mean you look at just the hours. It's like people talk about like you
know, doctor's hours, they're they'reworking like twelve hours ships, and I
go, if I work at twelvehour shift, that's a short day.
Yeah, And that you're doing thatevery day for decades. We have the
mentality and again mental health and thestudios that we need these We need these

(53:30):
fifteen hour days because it saves money. It's like and one of the things
we were doing because of COVID everything. We were doing French hours on Picard,
which means no lunch, so youjust you have a walking lunch when
you have thirty sections, you goand something that's ridiculous. And but then
you go over to England and they'relike, no, we're done at five

(53:52):
o'clock and we're having tea and yeah, yeah, I worked in Ireland and
at five o'clock, you know,they were a piece of wood in your
hand just dropped and you and youand we would go to the pub and
there'd be fifteen plaints, you know, lined up on the public because they
finish their job. Go I havea pirate blacks. You're done, and
they don't end. Turn the brainoff. We're not thinking about whatever that

(54:14):
was. And it's just not athing. So it is possible people do
do it, but in our worldit's always that thing going. But if
we shoot fifteen hours, we cansave four dollars and we can save the
thing, and that is gonna whatSo all this strike is going to do
is make that worse. Well,thank you, Dave, thank you for

(54:38):
our hot topic of card season three. What are we watching, reading or
playing Trevor. Well, we can, we can see you, we can
cross off the reading. Uh yeah, I come like the biggest joke in
this podcast and I just want everywhereto know. But yet time to be
big time for this. I mean, trust me, I'm the big dark.

(55:01):
Yeah. It's funny that you saythat because I can literally see two
books on my nightstand that have beencollecting dust right now. No. I
mean I read a lot of youknow, video production forums and articles,
but that's yeah, right exactly.Dungeons and Dragons just came out on streaming.

(55:22):
Have you seen that? It's notI just watched that the other I
just watched it the other night.I liked I thought it was surprising.
I took my kid to it inthe movie theater. I was like pleasantly.
I thought it probably one of theworst advertising campaigns ever because I had
no plans on seeing it, butmy kid decided to wanted to see that
over Super Mario Brothers, which hassince seen, and I liked it.
I think it was smart to havea very strong British supporting cast. I

(55:45):
think that added a whole level toChris Pine is just he's just he's so.
I think everybody was pretty solid inthere for the most part. Yeah.
I'm a Michelle Rodriguez fan, alwayshave been since her first film,
Girl Fight, And I know shegets Oh she has a lot of haters.
I don't understand that. I thinkshe's a great, uh leading performer.

(56:09):
And yeah, the film was funand it's it had a couple of
sequences that were really well staged andvery very creative. The whole portal thing
where they actually used the sound effectsfrom the video game Portal Yeah in the

(56:29):
movie. Yeah, they used thesame sound effect. It was very clever.
Yeah, and the the you know, special effects they can be great,
but you know they if they're notclever, it gets dull after a
while. These special effects, Imean, you could argue that they're not
as good as some other films,but they were so clever and so well

(56:49):
staged that you know, this iswhy they stood out. So I'll remember
the special effects in the Dungeon Dragonsfilm more than most of the crapp I'll
see this year. Well, Iwatched a couple at Apple TV shows recently.
I'm a big fan of Drops ofGod, which is not sci fi,
but it's about have you heard aboutthis show. Well it's good,
so that's way. I don't knowit drops of god, great, great

(57:10):
show. Really check it out French. I believe I should have done some
research here on this one. Butwait, wait, it's forign language,
multiple languages, French, and you'rewatching this. Yeah, it was good.
It just it just finished up.So I completely recommend that. And
then of course Foundation, I thoughtthey did a pretty good job of I
am going to start watching Foundation.Yeah that looks I bet you haven't read

(57:32):
the books I read. I thinkI was in fourth grade or third grade.
They're kind of heavy books to readas a small child. But yeah,
and then as as Spangler said,and Ghostbusters, print is dead?
Are you referencing a movie from likenineteen eighty four or five four? Yeah?
Okay, well are you serious?Ghostbus? I'm siddy. I love

(57:55):
Ghostbuster thirty. It's thirty nine yearsold. It's it's completely lee out of
the lexicon. Are you serious?It is time for our hot topic.
That's the segment we're calling it ahot topic. It's down in our notes.
I don't know who wrote that down. It seems like something. I
know what our hot topic is andI couldn't care us. But here we

(58:19):
go, here we go. Well, I am still on the high.
Many is it months later? Atthis point, months later from the high
of the end of season three ofstarting Piccard. Let's dive into this,
Trevor, So you know the firsttwo seasons. Did you watch any of
it? No? It was notthe kind of show that I was interested
in. Well, what did youwant, Trevor? I mean, because

(58:40):
you know, I know a lotof people were disappointed that the original cast
wasn't there. So I wanted somethingit was different that nobody would have wanted,
and that was I was fine withthe original cast not being there.
I wanted something much smaller, muchmore character oriented. I wouldn't have cared
if Starfleet had anything to do withit all at all. I wanted to

(59:01):
see a show about this, thiscaptain, this hero of mine, growing
up, getting older. I knowthat that's boring to most people. I
thought that that would have been freshand compelling for star Trek. Well,
wasn't it because he was, youknow, lost? He was you know,
as he says in season three,he was basically like, oh,

(59:23):
it was a bunch of world buildingcrop in season one. You're saying,
I don't know. Okay, that'sthat's not that's not being fair. I
bailed after one episode, you know, so it's hard to judge it based
on one episodes. So I thinkit's a little unfair down to be honest.
No, no, it's not unfair. Not fair, Yes it is.

(59:45):
It is unfair. But you youtold me to watch. You told
me. You didn't ask me likeI asked you to watch. Even on
Genesis, say the proper name Evangelian. No, no, no, the
people, the people that love it, they called it Evanga. You you
told me to watch Star Trek Pricardseason three, that this was completely different

(01:00:10):
than the previous seasons, completely willbe either the Next Generations continuation that you've
always wanted. And because I youknow, I don't really care for the
Next Generation films though, you know, as bad as Generations is, I
have a soft spot for a coupleof scenes. Oh wait, no,
no, that's not true. Ilove First Contact, of course, First

(01:00:32):
Contacts. Great film. Great film. So I here here's the thing.
I talk a lot of crap.You know, I'm a hater. I'm
pretty negative, but I do whenI sit down and watch something, I
do sit down and open my mindyou know, I act like a curmudgeon,
but I really do open my mindand I went into season three with
a very open mind, and rightaway I just I just felt like it

(01:00:57):
was I didn't feel any connection tothe characters, even they already established characters.
There are these new characters that,of course, you know, I
had to contact you and be like, you know, who's this? I
mean, of course would they wouldget even you also know, but forget
season one two, so Laris wasbasically the only crossover and Raffi excuse me,
Laris and Raffi Laris they kind ofjust like a Larriss who I didn't

(01:01:22):
find compelling. But she was inthere for the one episode and then gone
and never never returned in the season. They kind of let her go,
and then you know, Raffi,you didn't know. But I don't think
you need to show anything about Raffi. I mean I think they kind of
established hers, you know, theundercover and they drive. Yeah, so
I don't think I couldn't care lessabout her story. It was fine,
and she has a relationship with seventhat kind of you know, was at

(01:01:42):
the end. But but you know, you had no connection to these characters,
which is very strange. I mean, these are you know, characters
who seven years and movies who youknow had an impact on you. I'm
sure growing up. Jonathan Frakes,who just did a great job of that
fantastic job and it's such a hewas why I held in. It's such
a good director too. But hedid a very good job with his episode
directing, very good. I thoughthe did the best. I thought Jerry

(01:02:06):
Ryan was fantastic. Yeah, solike Jerry Ryan's so interesting, the new
captain of the Enterprise, you know, Voyager I watched. I wasn't a
huge fan, you know, Ijust some of it, you know,
I watched it all. It neverhit you know, I was really more
into Deep Space nine seven. Inever really connected with I kind of she
always felt awkward to me. ButI think Jerry Ryan really really showed up
in the show and she just dida fabulous job. You know. It's

(01:02:30):
the thing where, you know,I talked about this a lot when we
watched like like music talent shows andthe difference between professionals and good amateurs,
right, the differences Professionals don't seemlike they're trying, right, and she
didn't seem like she was trying.There was a level of confidence and relaxed,
like a relaxed nature while she was, you know, being this character

(01:02:53):
that I think was so good andjust was such just did such a great
job. I mean she was great. I mean Shaw was great. I
don't know how they would bring himback in legacy. So that's what that's
why I saw this is something Iwant to bring up with Shaw in particular.
I and and you know, wetalked about this. I loved Shaw.
I thought Shaw was fantastic. Ithought the performance was great, and

(01:03:15):
I thought they did him dirty.To be honest, it kind of it
was it almost felt a little easyto get I mean there was the goal
was to get to get her on, you know, as the captain,
and you know they probably needed someoneto die. Yeah, but they could
have found another way. He's like, you know, it's yours now,
seven of nine. I saw someonetrying to justify a man. Where I

(01:03:35):
wrote this down somewhere, trying tojustify that she was like the seventh captain
of the ninth ship doesn't quite work. But if you go back to like
the original enterprise Kirk's and Pikes shipat c. Seventeen o one, it
got the A, the B,the C, of the D, the
E FG. So she's in chargeof G. So that's the ninth ship,
not quite the seventh Captain, Soshe's seven on the ninth like the

(01:03:58):
letter G Enterprise if you also overnow include the ANNEXO one enterprise ship,
it's the ninth enterprise that we've seen. All of that you just said bored
the hell out of me, likecompletely, you know, I think you
know so first season three, solike if you know, in a perfect
role for you, like, whatwould you want? You know, you
said you wanted to smell with Piccard, but with the next generation casts back,

(01:04:19):
what would you want? Well,maybe this would have been boring for
people, but I really liked theidea, and we talked about this,
uh at length when the episode airedor a few weeks afterwards. I really
liked how Shaw called out Picard andNumber one and and basically the entire history

(01:04:45):
of Star Trek, of of beinga bunch of cowboys and celebrated heroes for
not you know, and disregarding therules, disregard And I was like,
yes, let's go down this direction. Let's force them into a box and
see how they can either survive ormake things work, or you know,

(01:05:14):
let's see them follow. I knowthis sounds boring, but I thought it
would have been such rich ground forfor character development. Let's see them live
under rules like these these celebrated Starfleetheroes. I mean, we all love
them, but they're all rule breakersin's sane series, right that they're right?

(01:05:40):
And if we're gonna call them outsixty years later and then abandon that
later on in the season, that'sTrevor's serious, what's the point? What's
the point? You know, inthe end, it was the cowboy nonsense
that's saying And I was like,what, well, then, what was
the point of talking about that atin the beginning? Like if you're just

(01:06:01):
going to rely on it again?You know what I love is I mean
Terry Mattalas, like he was aco show runner on season two, but
season three was all his, Andyou know, he comes at it from
a fan. He worked on it, you know, as an associate inner
Systant I think early on Voyager,so he really came at it from a
fan perspective, which, as youknow, I appreciate, it's not always
the people who write these shows aren'talways fans. Of the shows and they

(01:06:24):
don't have it in great I feellike this season seen what fandom has done
in the last six years, beinga fan is not a great thing.
Come on, that's a that's anover exaggeration. That that's you know,
that's toxic fandom and Twitter Spider Versethe New Spider Verse movie directly comments on
this. It's great. Here's here'shere's the thing that I ultimately loved.

(01:06:46):
Like, I had very few issueswith the season. I thought it was
too much waiting and waiting. Itwas like, you know, by the
end, it's like, okay,the first eight episodes were just prelude to
the last two episodes. That wasreally a Star Trek At Generation finale movie,
which I got. So my onlybiggest issue was like, who is
Jack's father? Why are they afterJack went on for like way too long,
way too long? That's my onebig gripe about it, you know.

(01:07:10):
But for me, you know,I love that it was a nostalgic
show, like it wrapped up theseries again. I think All Good Things
was a great series finale for NextGeneration, but there was still so much
life in those characters, and Ithink they did such a good job,
Like revisiting that universe without you know, making it, still making something new,
and still having the characters grow andstill having an exciting story. I

(01:07:33):
think the problem with Star Trek,the problem with Star Wars both you know,
with Lucas and then Disney, andthe problem with a like a lot
of genre shows and even non genreshows probably is that everyone is obsessed with
prequels. They're all obsessed with goingback in time some some storyline and explaining

(01:07:56):
some event that happened. You know, I know, there was an there
was Enterprise, like this is allturn Center. There was Enterprise, There's
the Star Wars prequels. There's Discoveryuntil it jumped a shark. It went
to the future, which is actuallybetter, but it's strange. There's strange
New worlds Now, I think isthe exception that it actually works, And
I think that's solely because of Antsand Mount. I mean, he got

(01:08:18):
that show based on him guest starringon Discovery, and he was so good
that everyone demanded he get a show. And I think he makes that show
work and it's fun. And Iwas watching Star Trek again. Yeah,
I want to state for the recordthat I thought strange. I thought Strange
New world It was in my topten best TV shows last year. I
thought it was excellent. I onlywatched it because you told me to and

(01:08:41):
I had no interest. And Istarted watching it and was like, oh
my gosh, this show is excellent. It's well crafted, it looks great,
the cast is fun top to bottomfans, and it feels like watching
the original Star Trek. It feelslike what that must have felt like in
a way. The scripts are farbetter. And that's what was killing me
about Percard season three. I knowthat they're not the same show, but

(01:09:04):
I thought the productions with Strange NewWorlds had like turned a corner, and
I thought I just assumed that theCard would happen. But I think the
Card, I think it did.It did because it was it was a
familiar landscape that was a little bitmore modern or a little bit more new,
but still lived in that same century, in that same technology, right,

(01:09:27):
and that it couldn't be so advancedthat it didn't it didn't belong in
the next generation world. It justneeded to be like just a far a
little further ahead where a Strange NewWorlds can kind of do whatever it wants,
you know, But going back tothis whole sort of like prequel thing,
right, Like right fans, right, talking as a fan, like
we love to dive into the historyof like some event and some stories and
strange new worlds. Like they addedto like the history of the Gorn.

(01:09:49):
They made the Gorn so scary andinteresting, right with those baby that horror
episode that was a fantastic But mostof the time prequels, right, I
think about Star Wars or whatever,like it pulls them some thread to like
tell you a story about something thathappened in the past of the storyline,
but the stakes are so low becauseyou know what happens in the future,

(01:10:09):
so like it's almost like who careswhat happens to these people in the past
of the storyline? Like it's justthere's something that's constantly missing. You know.
We were in a new stage ofstorytelling where world building rules, and
that's fine. I understand things change. I'm not going to be one of
those people that you know, it'sterrible, it should go away. What
no, no, what's you know? Things evolve, things change. The

(01:10:31):
days of the autour are behind usright now, and it's it's the time
of the screenwriter, who who keeps, you know, all the pieces in
place and just keeps making the picturewider and wider and wider. The problem
is is that I don't think thatwas the game. That wasn't the case,
That wasn't the ky buddies obsessed withcan I don't think it has anything

(01:10:54):
to do with hold on and youcan say that something happened, but now
we want to go see it happenand well that but who no, I
agree, who cares about seeing whathappened in the past. But I'm saying,
and that would be fine if yougave us new story. I think
of something that we've never seen.But I think we did get something we
did that we did. I thinkwhat Pocards season Maybe I'm more Star Wars

(01:11:16):
and Star Trek. I agree,because that's the one that it's the elephant
in the room in the way,But Pocards season three did it had like
the nods and the winks to likethe past stuff and indulge the fans in
that in that everything even going atthe end, Rikers saying I missed that
voice to Michel Barrett's computer voice.It had a ton of those those Easter
eggs and all those parts to it. But you're saying you want the new

(01:11:38):
story, right. Yes, theboard was in this, Yes, the
dominion was in this, or thechangings were in this from de Space Now,
which I loved. But the stakes, we didn't know what was going
to happen. We didn't know whowas going to die, We didn't know
who was gonna end up with who, We didn't know who was going to
get past their trauma and all thatstuff. But it was it was still
a big unknown how it was goingto get resolved. And I think that's
that feels fresh to me. Youknow. I saw a bunch of calls

(01:12:00):
out, you know, for fans, a bunch of but it was,
but it was it was for peopleto make memes. Was grown up?
Tell me that it wasn't. Ina grown up version of Next Generation.
Next Generation still for the most part, aged well, for the most parted
well. It felt like a slightlymore version completely. No, I didn't.
I didn't feel that. But here'sthe kicker, Trevor. I let

(01:12:21):
let me pitch you on something.The number one reason why I think season
three was ultimately successful m hm,don't hate me, m Because there has
been criticism, like do they reallyneed the borg again. All this stuff
right right, the biggest, thebiggest moment in Next Generation. I remember

(01:12:41):
this the summer where Best of BothWorlds you know, part one and you
had to wait the whole sum Thatwas great. That really kicked the show
into being pop hit. Things likethat. Yep. The episode after Best
of Both the World's part two,when he goes home to Earth and fights
with his brother's very emotional episode getshim to fight. He's traumatized by that.
They move on, but they comeback to this thing of of Picard

(01:13:02):
being traumatized right first contact there's thebig obviously he is the big blow up
with about you know, kill themall, kill them they come, we
would treat all that stuff, andthen he kind of pulls away. But
basically what season three does is kindof says, you know, it wraps
up that thread of the trauma thathe's had all these years of being part

(01:13:24):
of the collective. He was alwaysafraid of going back. He was traumatized
by this like physical like you know, he says it was a violation right,
his body, his mind was violated. It's what set off Cisco on
his journey was when Cisco's wife waskilled at Will three five nine, and
so he's had this trauma all hislife and he's never been able to get

(01:13:45):
past it. That and then firstSight also in First Contact, why he
there was like the logical of whycan he still feel the board and stuff
like that, So there was alogical part to it that was a nice
kind of closure on it. Butfor him to go into the board ship
to save Jack, to save hisson, and too, he does hesitate
for half a millisecond, which wasinteresting choice before he like sticks you know,

(01:14:06):
the thing in he he does hesitatefor like a very instant moment there.
But the fact that he's willing togo and be in faces like trauma,
go into the collective and then sayto his son when Jack's like I'm
not leaving and I like it here, saying well, I will stay with
you because of you for as longas you need. That completely seals up

(01:14:28):
Piccard's story, you know, fromgoing back from Best of Both Worlds till
now, because it was a holein that character for all these years.
Yes, it was about him gettingold in season one and like trying to
find a new crew and the otherstuff, and like, honestly, the
end of season two was the partI liked. I thought the Will Wheaton
cameo was nice, which you didn'tsee. I thought Q was a little
bit off in the beginning. Ilove John Delante, I love Q.

(01:14:50):
He die, He dies spoilert inthe end of season two. It's about
him dying and how he and Piccardreconcile at the end. It's very interesting
moment. Some people hate it.I loved it. I thought it was
beautiful how these two actors just satin two chairs and talked. You should
one hundred percent and see it.Well, wait a minute, so why
is why is he dies? That'swhy that that's not according to what I'm

(01:15:11):
not according to the end right theend credit scene where yeah, well because
Jack says I thought you were deadand Q says you're thinking too literally or
something. So there's a lot there'sa way you can get around it.
But I think it was a reallywell acted moment between John de Lancy and
Patrick Stewart. So I would justskip ahead, honestly to the last two
episodes of season two if you're notgoing to watch it, because I really
do think the cameo and then uh, John Delancy was absolutely not going to

(01:15:32):
do that, I don't. Okay, but but but wait, wait,
wait, let me finish, Letme finish, because I'm trying to I'm
trying to convince you. This ismy take and maybe this this is maybe
what we do is we pitch eachother episode to episode, and someone is
you know, if we convince eachother. So you understand that the closing
the loop on that trauma, andthat's a very big deal. Okay.
In that scene with Jack in theVoid this collective, he talks about how

(01:15:57):
he had been waiting in that vineyardto die alone, knowing that there was
something missing and he didn't know whatit was, but he was there waiting
to die, which is true.That was season one, and that at
that moment in that void with Jack, he realizes that what he needed in
his life to be vital, andthat was his kids. To feel young
again with his child, with hisson. What does that harken back to

(01:16:18):
Trevor Star Trek two. The endof Star Trek two with Kirk and his
son, where Spock is on theGenesis planet dead and he says, I
feel young again, right, Ifeel alive. He's connected with his son,
right, and that connection is whatmakes good. It was all about
Kirk feeling old, right, feelingold for his age, all this stuff

(01:16:41):
and what happens to make him feelyoung again, Spock dying no, that
there was this new life, andthat he has the son now that he
didn't know he had, and sothe whole like children make us feel young
and vital rounding us, you know, and acknowled again. It's it's acknowledging
the past and adding to it withthis. Yeah, I mean, fair
enough, they okay, so theythematically, they thematically name checked Wrath of

(01:17:04):
Khan. I don't think. Idon't. I don't. I'd be surprised
it was intentional. I don't,But I think it's that I don't think
that makes it compelling. Listen,And in my opinion, compelling characters have
compelling stories, and I did,I I rarely. I just didn't find
anybody to be very compelling in thisoutside of outside of the Captain seven,

(01:17:28):
what about seven with her whole nameidentity? Seven? Yeah? Yeah,
yeah, But these aren't the majorplayers. These aren't things Ryk with his
son and the thing with his son. Nah, I didn't. I listen.
The Freake's performance is excellent and thedirection of episode four. But like
even his story, I didn't Ididn't care for I cared about the captain.
I liked it, and then Iliked Wharf's kind of like newfound Pacifism

(01:17:56):
stuff like that. They they gotthey got some good laugh some genuinely well
earned laughs out of that. ButI I was kind of rolling my eye.
I'm listening. We talked about thisbefore I knew. I hadn't.
I hadn't even seen a trailer forBricard season three, and I knew going

(01:18:18):
into this, knew it that theywere going to bring low cuts back back
into this thing because they always goback to that. Well they needed to.
But they again, the episode wascalled them Last Generation. It was
started with the next when the lastthat was it. And when it happened,
I just grow I was like,are you serious? I mean,

(01:18:40):
there was a little bit of alogical, like a logical like car like
I thought, First Contact did itright? And and but they were always
they were always, but they werealways still out there, you know,
Voyager or released whatever they released yearssince I saw and so they were always
still out there. And this wasthe wrap up, you know, and
this is the wrap up. Characterhe is linked to the Borg, and

(01:19:00):
so they had to destroy the Borgto finish him his story completely, and
there's nothing left for Pricard. I'dlove to see more of him, but
I don't think we need to,you know. And I think until this
was resolved, and this came outthe way he did, it was always
going to be a home you know, Is k Is Kirk resolved? I
mean the way he died under thatbridge, is his character resolved? I

(01:19:21):
don't think so. Well. I'veI've heard I've heard Geeks tell me,
Oh, he's alive. He's inthat Matrix returns. He's in the Yeah,
the Ribbon and I'm like the Nexusor the book, the book that
he supposedly with where he comes backbecause he's the board. Yeah. And
there was, you know, therewas when they went to the day Stroom
Institute. There was the little JamesKirk body in that part. I mean,

(01:19:46):
I don't know, you know whatI'm saying, Like Piccard, I
think they did right by like closinghim out this way. I thought it
was very disappointing. I was gonnasay, I thought you were agreeing with
me, and I'd want the episode. So the winner of the episode is
Dawn, episode one of No.One's Well, Hold hold On, hold
On. I do want to saysomething positive about The Card season three that

(01:20:06):
you and I actually agree on,something that I found to be very moving,
very emotional, and something that Ithought set a high, high,
very high like watermark for the entirefranchise. That show has hands down the

(01:20:30):
best Star Trek credit sequence every episode, no matter how if I couldn't stand
it or not, I always watchthat credit sequence because it is so well
designed, it is so artfully rendered. I'm You're looking at a bunch of
computer screens and somehow it's it's sanelyemotional. It's using specific cue and they're
all they're all they're all Eastern rhymesand they're all hitting at and I'm just

(01:20:54):
like, this is that credit seequence is superb. If you're not going
to watch this show, I'm withyou. You know what, I think
you should. I think people shouldwatch this show. I think I think
they should. I'm also sure youhate this, but I love the end
when they are just playing cards,like they just let the cameras roll for
forty five minutes or something. AndI saw the act, but it doesn't

(01:21:17):
make sunse No, it does makesense, and I didn't because that's what
friends do. They have fun andthey go to each other and they sit
around and they play poker. Imean, like I have a friend.
Learn how it is how the showfailed to move me emotionally and failed to
make me feel like I was sayinggoodbye. That credit sequence did that.

(01:21:40):
That credit sequence made me feel like, wow, this is it, Like
this is it, this is theend. I don't know how looking at
a bunch of computer screens does that, but it was just so well done
that that was I still felt Ihad the emotional experience of saying goodbye,
you know to this, you know, to a TV show. That credit

(01:22:02):
sequence filled the emotional gap for mewhere the show didn't well with that.
I think we are done with ourfirst ever episode of no win scenario.
So for hate mail to Trevor forquestions about Neon Genesis, Evangelie and Lily,
wasn't she in Lost? Which aboutLost? One day? She was,

(01:22:24):
Yeah, it wasn't good. YEP, I disagree. I thought Lost
was great. I even liked theending. I know a lot of people
hate it. I don't like howthere was this move in and around the
turn of the twenties first century,I should say to always end sci fi
films with a religious bent. Youknow, batt Star Galactica kind of did

(01:22:46):
that? Lost? Did that?Oh? We you and I liked Battlestar
Galactic bactic at the end. Yeah, we watched the finale together. We
have no memory. Yeah, yeah, I went to your house and we
watched all the people getting out ofyour basement. Yeah, how's your cat.
She's great, she's sleeping rip behindthere you go, cat lady,
Trevor. But you know, alot of these shows ended with, you

(01:23:06):
know, the sort of religious tiltto it that wasn't there earlier. So
one of many reasons that lost Ithink fell short in my book, it
wasn't planned out, unlike Bable Onfive, which was fully planned out.
And I'm wonderful. So with that, email your questions, your thoughts or
comments to us at No Win ScenarioPodcast at gmail dot com. That's No

(01:23:27):
Win Scenario Podcast at gmail dot com. I am Don and I am Trevor.
Thanks for listening. In today's world, mental health is everyone's concern.
If you or someone you know isin crisis, please use these resources for
us listeners. Call one eight hundrednine five zero six two six four or

(01:23:51):
text helpline all one word h EL P l I N E to six
two six four zero, or emailhelpline at NAMI dot org. That's NAMI
dot org. For our international listeners, please visit suicide Stop dot com.

(01:24:12):
That's s U I c I de stop dot com

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101 - Star Trek Picard Production Designer Dave Blass

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}101 - Star Trek Picard Production Designer Dave Blass