March 24, 2024 • 46 mins
Dune, Dune, or Dune? Pick your favorite. Don and Trevor sure have! Listen to this special episode of No Win Scenario where Don and Trevor fight over David Lynch's Dune, Christopher Walken's casting, and so much more! Trevor's tangent incoming... This is No Win Scenario 203 - Dune Part 2....Part 1!
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(00:00):
Trevor, Trevor, Yes, yes, don don The beginning is the time
for taking the most delicates. Herethe prices. What what are we supposed
to talk about doing? Isn't thisour special Dune episode? This is this
is my very old copy of doonelook at this is? This is not
what we're doing. This was youridea. This is what we're doing.
We're talking. I didn't think.I didn't think we were going to start
(00:22):
out with this. Oh you meantDune Part two, the movie? That's
exactly what I meant do Part two. This book is my favorite book.
I know it is. You keptthe copy in the bathroom in your old
studio. I did multiple copies.I've got him in various states. I've
(00:43):
known you for a long time.I'm very well aware you have copies of
it everywhere. So you want totalk about the movie that that movie that
you didn't like. I would liketakt to talk about Denis Villeneuve's movie Dune
Part two, which I loved.Okay, I well, I have some
thoughts, as you might ask,Oh my god, I can't imagine you'd
(01:04):
have thoughts on it. So howabout we talk about on the show today
that sounds great, and then I'lllend you my copies. You can finally
read a book. Fantastic. Okay, let's get on with the show.
Let's get on with the show.I haven't listened to anything you've said in
the last twenty seconds. Damn it, Trevor. Oh God, I hate
you so much. Well it's you. We can cross off the reading.
(01:26):
I watch almost everything in the majorityof this terrible What is this podcast about?
My record? Damn it, Trevor. Hi, everyone, and welcome
to this very special episode of NoWhen Scenario podcast where we talk about Doom
Part two. I am don andthat strange man is waving strangely at me
(01:48):
is Trevor part part two? That'swhat that was, Trevor, How are
you just shut up and start?Okay, let's just I just want to
hold on to the part where youbreak my heart. No, no,
no, no. First of all, I didn't get to see the movie
with you because I was busy workingand I had You couldn't wait a day
to see it with me. Youcouldn't wait one day, twelve hoursas you
(02:09):
see it with me again? Howmany times have you seen it? Absolutely?
I've always seen it once. Iwould have seen more times if I
thought. But I'm going again ina few days, and then I'll go
again with you, and uh yeah, I'm very well aware. So why
am I going to break your heart? Because you're going to crap all over
it? Listen, hold on,let me just let me just show everybody
(02:34):
what your single response was to thefilm when you finally saw it. Oh,
hold on, I knew this wouldtrigger you. I know how to
trigger dude, people of all ages. You made me, You made me
so mad before you saw the film. I wrote don a novel before you
even saw saw the film about howwrong he's going to be. He finally
(02:58):
sees the movie doing part two.This in imax, big screen. This,
Well, you didn't you saw itin limax. You didn't see that?
True? Wasn't true? Yeah?I saw it in true Imax.
I'm seeing it again in true Imax. I needed a reserve seat. I
didn't have that kind of time toYeah, three hours ahead of time.
(03:19):
Actually, that's very true. Ihad to get there very very early.
I've got to get there early whenI see it again. That part is
a pain that our true Imax screendoes not have assigned seats. That sucks.
So Dawn sees it. I dowhat did you see an evening show
on Sunday? Or I saw likea seven PM show? Okay, the
three hours later, at nine fiftyfive pm, I get this single text.
(03:47):
That's it. This is all hesays about the movie. This is
it. This was his takeaway,folks. It's so pathetic, it's unbelievable,
he writes, can't believe. Ican't believe they made still Gar a
clown. That is what he gotout of every time still Guar talked.
(04:09):
I mean, that's the one.That is what he walked away with from
that movie. No, no,no, no, no, hold on
hold it's not a full epic.That's not what I walked away with.
I spent two hours in that moviethinking about what to say to you.
I was so distracted by how torespond to you. After I got out
of that movie, that that's allI could think about. No, let
(04:31):
me let me tell you something,Trevor can't taste something. I'm going to
shock you right now. I'm gonnashock you. Know you're not I really
really liked the movie. No youdidn't. I thought it was a great
movie. I really did. Iswear to God, I wanted another hour
of it. I really loved it. Okay, however, yes, yes,
however, it was a very verygood movie, A great movie for
(04:54):
the masses, very good movie.It was an interesting adaptation of Doom.
I do not think it's the bestmovie. The best Dune movie that,
of course, you don't could bemade. Uh I'm curious, don which
which? Which is the best Dunemovie made so far? Let me tell
you this, This, of courseis the best movies made so far.
(05:15):
However, this one, even thoughit's campy, even though it's bad,
this one made me appreciate how muchwas in the David Lynch movie that they
did not put in this one.And I can give you some examples if
you allow me, sir, Yeah, please, And I'm not talking about
the crazy voice attacks. Mm hmm. Dune. Wait wait, hold on,
(05:40):
hold on. I fell as Iliterally fell asleep real quick. I'm
just I'm waking down. I'm wakingthis book in my hand. Dune is
a magic mushroom fever dream of FrankKerbert. Great, right. It was
a lot of fun stuff in there, a lot of crazy stuff in there.
This Dune Part two made me appreciatethe David Lynch movie because they were
able. They tried to put somuch more of the book into that movie
(06:02):
than this one did. I willgive you just one or two examples of
things that are not crazy that Ifelt like we're missing. Where was the
guild, Trevor. The guild isso important to the book, and so
it's no, no, don theguild is important to you, to me,
to the you of the book,to make the story even stronger.
(06:24):
Okay, because it was not clear, what I just say, I again,
I love that film was very clear. That's the brilliance of what Denie
Villanov did. That thing is verydense, and he adapted it in a
very clear for the masses, cinematic, beautiful, great storytelling. What he
did new with Chawnnie I thought wasgreat. That was so great. This
(06:46):
book ends saying, even though we'reConcubine's history, will will remember us as
wives or something Jessica is saying toChawny. What he did with Jessica I
thought was really interesting. What hedid with Shawnnie was very interesting, really
good. There's pillars of society,there's the oil barons, there's the transportation
with like the whole colonial allegory partof this of the book in the in
(07:10):
the movies and taking out Spice reallyexcept from the first movie as a hint
as being so vital to space commerceand chum. Right, do you didn't
read the book though? Right?No? And I never will? You
should? You really should? No, I won't joking aside. It's it's
it's a great book and it wellokay, okay, joking aside. Listen,
(07:33):
I we talked about this before withDavid Mack. I have a I
have a genuine I have very goodreading skills. I have a genuine issue
with reading right now. It's verydifficult for me. And I've heard that
Dune has a very specific kind ofprose, that is that is possibly two
(07:56):
dense, super very dense. However, have the visuals like when I was
a kid, I started reading thebook in third grade or something. It's
a very hard book for a littlekid to read. But I had that
movie to help me guide me throughthe through the book in terms of the
visuals, so I think it wouldbe okay. But even then I would
try the audio book because I thinkyou'd find it really interesting how rich the
book is. It really is Okay, but Is there multiple version? I
(08:18):
mean serious question, is there multipleversions of the audio? Like, because
this is again weird. It alldepends on the person's voice. If I
can get into an audiobook, isthere different there different versions? I don't
know. I've never listened to theaudiobook. Yeah, I've read this book
probably three four hundred times in mylife. I mean that. Yeah,
but no, you love you lovethe book and it's my whole life.
(08:39):
Yeah, and I'm glad it's apopular hit now, so you know,
again I can't have a biased opinion. Well, the real question, hasn't
it always hasn't the book always beena hit? Or no? Was it?
Like not book? When when atfirst it builds It took a while,
so I think it was something liketwenty two publisher said no to the
book and then like some small publisheroriginally picked it up that did like appliance
(09:03):
for para manuals or something. I'mnot quite sure, so don't quote me
on that. Thankfully, no one'slistening. So it took a lot and
then it was a flop when itfirst came out, and then it built
up and built up. Yeah,what's so, it's so it's a little
strange in terms of the writing.But in that book you have the you
know, you have these pillars likethis, like Denny said, like this
is a Reverend Mother adaptation of themovie, like that's the focus. But
(09:26):
in that you had the Reverend Brothers, you had the Guild. The Guild
like they are changed from the Spiceto be able to travel through space and
ships. These are these like monstroustype secretive people and they're the power behind
everything. So the Emperor can't bean emperor without the Guild, who is
the transport. The Emperor can't bethe emperor without the great Houses, which
(09:50):
you know at the end at thegreat scene where he's like go liberate them
or send them to Paradise, andnow the frim and are great space ship
fighters. That was the one flawin the whole film. I felt to
go on to space and fight peoplethat you know, which they do sort
of in the book, but it'sdifferent. But having all these pillars of
society all be dependent upon Spice,right, What's so interesting on the political
(10:11):
side of Doune the novel that Ifelt that that was missing, that I
would, you know, and itdidn't have to be a big, a
big add on, I thought tothe movie for that, so that that
was kind of sad, you know. You know again, I love the
movie. I just wanted more.Touffer is missing. He was missing in
this one. You know, thingsthat are weird. I'll ask, who's
(10:33):
that the mentat from the first one, okay, the guy with I forgot
the actor. Yeah, he's ahuman computer. So they they do more
of that in the book with theseare mentas. So the book and the
David Lynch movie I thought was granderin scope, not better story, but
was grander in scope. It feltbigger like in the new movie. And
(10:54):
then I'll stop talking. In thenew movie, the Hearkening Planet was cool.
It was cool with the infrared.It was good gimmick. The CG
I thought was terrible a couple oftimes when the large groups of people,
I thought it looked terrible. Waitwait, wait wait wait. The CGI
in People of Villanove's Dune Part twoyou thought was terrible in two spots.
The fighting scene okay on the Heartkeuningplanet where the people were chanting and that
(11:16):
you know, they looked like itreminded me. And what was it the
Rise of Skywalker at the end whenyou saw the sith just as like shadows
in the background in the arena completelyreminded me of that they were too just
cookie cutter yeps of people doing thesame motion over and over again. Yeah.
And then when Paul standing on topof the theoretically millions of Fremin fighters.
(11:37):
Oh, and when he held upthe knife, Yeah, I thought,
just the it looked, it lookedtoo amazing. He looked amazing on
top, but less so than theHerdkening fight scene. It just looked to
copy and paste groups of people doingthe same kind but mostly in the in
the theater. That was the onlything I thought that took me out of
it, the worms and take meout of it all that I wanted more
(11:58):
fighting at the end, I kindof wanted more. The whole last bit
wrapped up too quickly. But there'sa lot, there's a lot to talk
about. There's a lot. Idon't know if there's less action in this
in this in part two, butI will say this and this, I'm
surprised it's being as it's as wellregarded as it is. I'm surprised that
(12:20):
I'm not surprised that the critics loveit. I'm surprised that the general public
loves it because I take this onething missing from this I am not complaining.
I think it's a better film.I think it works in the first
film. I don't think it wouldwork in the second film. But the
sense of adventure from the first filmcompletely gone in the second film. Wellritely
gone. Interesting. You said thatbecause my wife I asked her what she
(12:43):
thought after she saw the movie.She's only seen the first part. She
fell asleep on the David Lange fiftytimes, so she never saw it.
She's like, it was fine,but I wasn't really interested in the story
which was in it. Wow.And then I thought about it and I'm
like, well, yeah, Imean I loved it because I'm seeing to
come to life a book. Ilove characters. I know, I'm seeing
what's different that I like, seeingwhat I don't like, like still go
(13:07):
the clown right. Couldn't disagree more. But you know, I love the
acting. I just thought he wentfrom being this like leader serious thing in
the first one to like being thecomic relief silliness thing. I mean,
it was funny, but it wastoo much anyway. So I don't have
an unbiased opinion here about the story, but like she didn't care that he
(13:28):
wanted revenge and she wasn't like rootingfor him to you know, it just
wasn't enough for her. It waswell done, it was well made,
it was interesting, but she's notlike, oh God, this story was
so impactful to me or anything.Okay, two things real quick. Number
one. As much as I dislike, you know, the irony, I
think Lynch is one of our bestcontemporary filmmakers right now. I do not
(13:52):
like his version of Doune. Iwill concede that it that Denis Villeneuve's vision.
Uh, I don't think it lacksambition. It's very ambitious. It
does not have the art, directionand ambition the visual ambition of Lynch's Doune.
(14:16):
I'm gonna I'm totally gonna give youthat that winn winner that film.
Admittedly, Witch's film looks fantastic.I know people complain about the optical effects
in the end, screw you.I love optical effects. They are great.
I understand why the optical effects arethat way. It was produced by
(14:39):
Dino de Laurentis, and if you'veseen any other DNO films, all of
the opticals look like that. Itis it's not so much a Lynch's signature,
that's Dino signature. He must havehe must have had some control over
which effects house that they were goingto use for for Inch's version of Doune,
(15:01):
so that they could save money orsomething like that. I love how
the opticals look. Second thing,what he's lost? Everybody, I am,
I really am? Why I saveyou? No it, I've got
(15:24):
it. I one thing that downand I have had an argument about for
god, I think over a yearnow since it was it was announced.
This was Don's point that he kepthammering over and over and over again,
basically pre judging the movie in advance. I was going to be a failure.
(15:46):
So now I want to know howyou really, now that you've seen
the film, how you really feltabout Christopher Walking. Oh? Oh yes,
absolutely, Because I was very veryon Hint and the casting. I
didn't think the movie was gonna bebad. I was just doing that to
give you a hard time. ChristopherWalking I thought was an awful choice before
(16:07):
hind and still now. I don'tknow if it's because of him or because
he didn't have much to do.I felt like the Emperor in Lynch's version
was more interesting and more realistic,and like the Emperor like that was again
one of like the maybe the productiondesign or the ambition. Here the emperor's
planet, what did that look like? What did the court look like?
(16:29):
They were just like outside some house. Whenever we saw the Emperor, it
felt very powerless. There's no worldthere. I'm like, it feels like
a few simple exteriors or a planetor something could have added a lot in
a few spots, which is mycritique of like a lot of J.
J. Abram's films and things likethat, like the scale and the scope
and the danger and the just allof this didn't make sense, wasn't there?
(16:55):
So you know, he didn't havemuch to do, he didn't have
much to say, and he seemedpowerless to be with, Okay, which
I don't think he is in thebook, you know, he just he
seemed like, I don't know,and he sounded like Christopher Walkin. It's
hard for him not to sound likehim. So my favorite, my favorite
film critic, Mark Kmode loved thefilm, but he came down really hard
(17:17):
on walking. Oh did he?Yes? He was. He was like
Walkin was doing his walking thing,and this was not the movie for that
exactly. He was doing his insiderwinky. You know, I'm gonna pause
in the middle of this sentence forno reason and then accentuate the next word,
(17:42):
which is not a word to beaccentuated, and then finished the sentence.
He wasn't. I don't completely agreewith that, but I have to
admit as much as I love walking, are you agreeing? Uh, I'm
(18:03):
kind of agreeing with you. Yeah, I mean I I like the performance
because he he I don't know ifhe's supposed to be, but he looked
tired. He did like it wasan interesting choice. I think it was
the wrong choice. Whether it washe did, it would have been a
good choice. Hergan procknow from thefirst movie, the original movie. Well,
(18:26):
h I'm not is he heard of? I'm sorry that that was sorry
that was later a trades. I'msorry that was later a trades. I
don't remember the actor's name for well, for the emperor, but you know
what didn't feel like a royal.It didn't feel like someone with power who
was used to the trappings of office, to all this stuff. It was
like this Porsche lub in his garden, you know, I mean, Erlin
was okay, she was fine,but like, was that Florence Pugh?
(18:48):
Yeah, yeah, you know,it just it's felt so unroyal, so
small. And it was a weirdchoice too, to have Paul be the
one to send a letter to him, to have him come and meet with
him on a racus at the end. You know, doesn't that fit with
the film? That that that visualhold on not the book. I'm talking
(19:11):
about the overall aesthetic with Like,the film is a war between minimalism and
maximalism, and there's stuff that's veryminimal and then I got to say,
don seeing it in full imax,then there's stuff that's massive and filling the
screen. I got. I satthere, I had a great seat,
(19:33):
and I'm like, I wish Iwas watching this movie. I'm a vision
pro because it's so much cooler.That would have been amazing. I can't
wait to see it on that becausethat's better than going to any movie theaters.
I plug for Apple, but watchingit that way is amazing. You
got to come see I disagree,it wouldn't. It's not going to be
as great as seeing it at Jordan's. It's just not. It's not,
Oh, it's not. It's aresolute the Resolute I had how big screen
(19:56):
is you get? Yeah? Anyway, and I I hope they release it
in actual full Imax on the Visionpro because Dune two is all the four
k U H D Blu ray isalready up for pre order and you can
only get the Scope version, justlike the first. And I'm so I'm
guessing that when denis done the trilogy, there will be a box set and
(20:19):
you'll actually be able to get theImax versions. Interesting, well, there's
a bunch of for the Vision there'sa bunch of Imax ones available. Yeah,
there's an actual Imax app so yeah, and then again like through Disney
you can see the Imax those thosesome of those films Imax version. So
I understand that. But again inthe in the David Lynch movie, in
the book, the reason that theEmperor comes to Racus is because the baron's
(20:42):
failed is failing, you know atthis and the Emperor comes for business being
like I'm gonna get the order right, and here he's like I've been summoned
here, I'm gonna talk to thisguy, right, you know. So
it's like less of a presence ofa thing and part of the great Houses
is that they are. You don'tagree, I agree, Oh you agree?
(21:07):
God, will you stop that?And the great houses being there,
like the Emperor brings great houses there, but the great houses are so dependent
on spice that Paul goes, Iwill blow up with the atomics the spice,
and you will all be trapped inyour planets. And so that's how
he becomes emperor. Right. Yes, there's jihad that happens going forward,
(21:30):
but I just feel like that waslike, Ah, that's too bad,
that's not there I didn't need.In the book, Paul and Chawney have
a son who gets killed in thebattle, a little one. I didn't
need that. We didn't need Alia, a weird toddler walking around like you
know, she's the one who killsthe baron like in the movie you've seen,
you know. Like, so therewere things that he skipped, which
I get. But the sort ofpillars of the society of Doune is number
(21:53):
one thing that I feel like wasmissing. And number two, the sort
of psychedelic pressions and seeing the futureand all that that was very It was
such a light touch in this film. And again, I love this movie.
I can't wait to see it again. Right again. It was a
really really awesome movie for everyone,and it was a good, interesting adaptation,
but I don't think it's the bestdo movie that could have been.
(22:14):
And it's very small point there.Okay, so Rich, this is not
an insulting question. It's a genuinequestion. It is something that I've been
pointing out to you time and timeagain, and it's okay to admit.
Don I have this about a lotof films? Do you because of your
love for the book, because ofhow influenced it's not just your love of
(22:38):
Winch's done, but how influential thatmovie is for you saw it at a
you saw it during formative years.Yes, you probably looked at that movie
and said, I didn't even knowyou could do that with a movie like
this? Blew my mind open.Do you lack objectivity? Coubjectivity? I
absolutely do. I lacked objectivity,But you just think about how much better
(23:04):
it could be. And I don'tthink that's wrong. Even though I don't
have that objectivity, you know thatthere's material there to draw from that could
have made it better? Could ithave? Could the addition of that material
made the film too dense, because, in my opinion, Lynch one.
It is dense. It's not atall. But that's why I'm so obscresed
(23:26):
with the Lynch version, because there'sso much crammed in there. Right Well,
that's the problem with the Lynch version. Crammed in the last half an
hour is like a Christopher Nolan expositiondump on steroids, like it's that last
half dawn. Give me the lasthalf an hour. That last half an
hour's ridiculous. It goes through likeninety books in twenty minutes. It's ridiculous.
(23:48):
Don give it to me. Idisagree. I disagree. I disagree.
I disagree. I disagree. Youknow, and I think the fact
that he's un interested and unwilling todo any book adaptation after Dune Messiah shows
that he played it too safe.Because Trevor, I'm going to run some
things for you right now, seeaarnack at these. I don't think who
(24:12):
is the main character of the Duneseries? Who do you think of the
Dune series? Paul's sister incorrect?Okay, who's the main character of this
whole set of books? M duncanIdaho? Okay? Interesting because my friend
(24:33):
Brian, who were going to haveon the show soon. Don and Brian
met at a at a screening ofLynch's Dune at the Bridle Theater in Cambridge
last year, and they're both massivefans of the book and massive fans of
(24:56):
Lynch's Dune. They I honestly thoughtDown was gonna cheat on his wife that
night with my friend Brian. Theyfell in love so quickly with each other,
and it was quite a sight tobehold. Wow. One thing that
(25:18):
I believe it was Brian that mentionedhe absolutely loved Doune Part two, the
movie. Loved it. I've alreadyseen it. I've already seen it a
few times. And he I believeit was him that said, but I
missed Duncan So is that? AndI got to be honest, I missed
(25:41):
Duncan. You remember who it was? I remember Momoa? Yeah, okay,
yeah yeah. I mean he dies, he dies in the book.
He just comes back later on anotherbook, right, I like, how
is that even set up in thesemovies? It's not. I well,
I wouldn't be surprised if Dennie andhis writers maybe don't bring up They're not
(26:07):
going to bring back for Messiah,he comes back. Children God Emperor is
a great book it's crazy. Idon't know if you know this, but
god Ember of Dune is a massivework. The whole book centers around Paul's
son, who lives for ten thousandyears I think, and is a giant
sandworm and the talks. Well,I like, there's no way I'm going
to make this, but it's itwould be fascinating to try. I've heard
(26:29):
it. The books, according tomy friend Brian, like, they get
crazier and crazier, crazier because becauseFrank just Craig Herbert the writer, Yeah,
went too many mushrooms. Yeah,but I got to tell you,
god Eber of Dune, it's avery interesting book. It's dense, it's
political, it's good. Can youbring a giant talking sandworm who has a
(26:53):
love interest to life, right,you know that's a challenge. But you
know, again, the fact thathe said it shows that he was playing
it safe the whole time. Andyes, the fight scene with the infrared
in black and white very cool,very cool, But that doesn't mean it
wasn't safe. Right now, andso much of doing is the politics,
(27:17):
you know, Like he added inwith the Ferring or whatever with her name
fed Fenring, the Countess Fendring.She was was that Leis? Was that
Lais to do? I believe?Is that her? Yeah? Yeah,
okay, I believe. You know. They cut out you know, her
husband, the Count, you know, in the both Lynch and Villain new
I can't say his name that Isay, right, yeah, both versions.
(27:40):
They cut out this great scene inthe first part, or would have
been the first movie, where there'sa dinner with the water traders and the
smugglers and and Paul's father that reallygets into the whole political stuff. So
again, the political side of things, the structural things for the society and
all the different worlds were just kindof missing. And it seemed small.
You know, it seems small forsuch a big looking film. In a
(28:04):
way, the galaxy seems small.There's nothing mystical and magical. There was
no guild there, really, therewas no like, oh, this is
the mysteries of traveling through space.There's so much that could have been peppered
in. Even so, uh II initially heard, I I initially uh
(28:26):
read and heard by people who sawthis film before I did, And I
initially rolled my eyes when I firstheard this. But there are a lot
of comparisons to David Leane and Lawrenceof Arabia. Have you ever seen Warrens
of Arabia? Of course? Okay, so Lawrence of Arabia. That's when
that wait is. That is thatwhen the guy is on the it's a
(28:48):
sergic five bit. All right,never shut up and let me make my
point there. It has a massivevisual scope and it and story wise,
it has the intimacy of a ofa character drama. Now, when I
saw Doom Part two, I waslike, yes, this is very David
(29:10):
Leyne. This is kind of Lawrenceof Arabia. That it it. It
had a massive scope versus and intimacywith the characters. And it sounds like
that bothered you a bit. Theintimacy is fine, Actually there was,
Like I was reading one thing thatmentioned like in the books, when Gurney
comes back after being a smuggler,he's so suspicious of Jessica because he thinks
(29:34):
she was the trader. They didn'tknow who the trader was, right,
so he thinks it's her. Hetries to assassinate Jessica. It stopped.
Paul explains what's going on, andthen he becomes indebted to Paul again.
Essentially, but he thinks he's avengingit, so like there there were there
were little moments that could have stillbeen there, having those intimate moments.
So it's not that I just thinkthere's there was no reason to leave out
(29:57):
certain things. So I got onemore question for you, and then I
just want to move into Dune Parttwo exclusively and if we can just leave
the book and Lynch out of it. We've we've made a lot of comparisons
and I'm sorry this is a spoiler. We should probably put a spoiler warning
at the beginning of this episode thing, but spoilers spoilers. So this is
(30:21):
a question for you, Yes,sir, Anya Taylor Joy or Alisha Witt,
Alicia Witt. We're talking about theactress who played Alia. Are you
saying Alicia Witt as a child oras a don I want I want you
to ask me the same question.Alicia Witt or Anya Whatever Toy, Taylor
(30:44):
whatever her name is, Queen's Cambit, Alicia Witt. Do we agree on
something? Yes? And that's becauseI am ride or die for Alicia Witt,
an unbelievable talent. Yeah, well, local, local person. She's
from here, and we're comparing tosomeone who was like a five year old
(31:06):
versus yes, twenty five year old. But in terms of I think in
the film, I would have likedto see listen. I love Anya Taro
Joy. She's very, very talentedactor. I saw her. I did
like the Menu, by the way, that's a fun movie. Menu is
great. I love it and I'mlooking forward to her Furiosa film. Though.
(31:29):
I just wish they brought Charlie's back, but I don't know how they
do it, but I wish nointerest. You're an idiot. I would
have liked to have seen that characterin Dune two portrayed as younger, because
she's crazy and weird and like,you know, knocked up of the book.
But in the book, Thomas's wifekeeps her safe. There's no Joma's
(31:51):
wife in this, which is interesting. You know, it's a weird character
who's like really intense and creeps outthe fromen and so you know to do
to because she's because she's five yearsold in the Lynch version, and she
she reads her lines like a fiveyear old. She does come across as
it's creepy from which she is,and she's creepy her whole life, her
(32:14):
whole existence, in the new novels, if she's creepy and knows too much
and all that stuff, and againthat sort of connection, like you know,
like Jessica drinks the water of life. You know, it's sort of
hinted at that the old reverend motherdies at the same time, letting her
live. But it's not like Jessicawas supposed to die from that, right,
but the Reverend Mother kept her alive. Like it's just these small little
(32:37):
choices that I don't think were necessaryto skip over, right, you know?
So okay two, Part three,what's going to happen. Let's just
let's just get to do too.Let me let me say my piece about
the family. I got a coupleof things to say. Sit here.
Number one, I have never seenthe movie Elvis, and I have no
(32:59):
I never will, I am not. Will you cut the crap put the
book down? Yeah? Shut up? I hate you? Uh yeah?
And uh I've only seen two performancesby Austin Butler. Number one was in
Tarantino's Once upon a Time in Hollywood, which he is excellent, and number
(33:22):
two doing Part two, which heis funenominal in this film his incredible what
what I uh? I wrote apost on on Facebook because I'm old,
and I wrote about how this guyhas single handedly corded the market on villains
(33:44):
that are just filled with tired tropes. And you've seen this a million times,
but somehow I really believe, bothin Once Upon Time in Hollywood and
this that this guy is rotten.That you feel the rot. That's why
I use the word rot. Youcan just feel the rot inside of him.
(34:05):
And he is God. He's sogood in this film. It's a
it's a great performance. Number two, Wonka, I do you like Wwonka?
Hey man? I went into Wonkawith an open mind on that movie.
No, I meant like the actorwas his name Tom Tim Wonka shot
(34:28):
stop it stop it, stop itwait on this kind of time. Number
two, My heart broke for Zendayain this film. She did a great
job. My heart was, Isaid part one. She had nothing to
do and she was there for likea day of film or whatever it was,
and it was a waste of spacein that movie. I thought she
did a great job. It wasan interesting addition to the to the lore
(34:49):
here how they had her storm offand it was great. Now Number three,
this is going to be long,winded, but I actually think you'll
be interested in what I have tosay. You've got five minutes. This
is where I lack objectivity with thefilm. I I'm going to get very
personal here. I was raised byfundamentalist extremists and it was very damaging and
(35:22):
it resulted in a lot of traumafor myself and my sisters. This film
spoke to me on such a personallevel. I took it. I was
so moved by this message of youknow, prophecies versus just plain old common
(35:51):
sense, and how Paul is destinedto be this leader for now, but
as that is gonna end up maybebeing their destruction in the end. I
was so moved by this. Imean I can't. I have thought about
(36:15):
it non stop, and that reallyreally spoke to me because I can't listen.
I'm not I'm for our listeners,I listen. I am not criticizing
you how you brought up what youbelieve in. I am just saying for
me, and I'm not going togo into specific examples that how I was
raised in a very very similar situationand it was so damaging to my siblings
(36:44):
and I and it was it wasan absolutely horrible experience. I could not
believe this message was being said onsuch a big scale movie. I can't
believe this film is doing as Idon't hear a lot of controversy around this
message. I don't think people,Trevor. Here's the thing. I think
(37:05):
half the audiences who love it didn'tget it. They think Paul's the hero,
like, yeah, he won,Well, that's it. And I
think that was a mistake of thefilm, a little bit that could have
been more fleshed out. Hair Imegain. It's a long movie, there's
a lot to do, but thatcould have been fleshed out more than he
could be. You know, it'sit's sort of said if you know it's
there. But I think a lotof people missed it, right, Okay,
(37:27):
okay, two points real quick.My friend Brian said the same thing.
He was so frustrated because he's he'slike so many people I know who
have seen it have come up tome and complain that they're like, oh
my god, Paul's another white savior. Why are we see And he's like,
did you completely miss the point ofthat film? Because clearly they did
(37:50):
it. He is not a saviorof anything, right, I mean,
maybe for that moment, but itis very clear in that film that what,
you know, the incredible damage thatPaul is going to bring in the
(38:12):
future. Now my last point,they should have showed it. You know,
they have still goar, I'm sorry, still go to the clown jumping
on a jumping on a ship andthen going off to you know, like
attack. But they could have theycould have really pushed pressed on that.
So I know we got to wrapup my last question for you as we're
(38:37):
going to go back to the booksas a book reader. Uh, you
said to me that a few monthsago. I remember it perfectly. You
said, there's no way Villaneuve isgoing to do Dune Messiah. No way,
no, no, you said DuneMessiah. Don I never heard that.
(38:59):
I not on the show, becauseyou know, there's Dune Messiah,
then there's Children of Dune, which, by the way, I have a
sawt spot for the sci fi versionof Children of Doune. You should watch
that. What's what's what's not?The argument? I have a genuine question,
Yes, there was done Part two, Dude Messiah? Was it?
Kind of dude Messiah? Is it? Setting Upsia was originally written as the
(39:22):
end of the Dune the book,but you know, it's long enough to
be a shorter book. So doesdoes it look like the third film is
going to be Dune Messiah. That'smy understanding that eventually he's going to do
it in the book. I thinkit's been a while Villa, who have
only said he's doing three films threethat's it out right because the children.
(39:43):
I think he's afraid to do Childrenof Dune. It has to do with
like Leedo, Paul's sun starting toturn into a sandworm in a way,
and dealing with the more mystical stuffof like the Golden Path, like what
the future is for humankind and gettingpeople to survive ten thousand years in the
future and so on. So Ithink he wants to avoid that into a
more traditional story, which this isin a way. So dude, Messiah
(40:07):
is it'd be interesting because it's lessof an easy story in that it's a
bad guy and overcoming. It's allabout like the failures of Paul and what
Paul is afraid to do. PaulI'm spoiling. The book goes often too
the desert to die blind because he'safraid to do what his son will eventually
do. And become that sandworm,right, and he needed to become a
(40:31):
sandworm and rule for ten thousand yearsto guide mankind viciously, to make them
survive a dark future down the road. Paul just can't bring himself to do
it. Essentially, that's the book. And he has twins, so and
it's all about the forces that aretrying to bring Paul down. Those forces
(40:52):
are not even hinted at in thesemovies, So I have no idea what
he's going to do for this movie. I'm sure to be great. I'm
sure to be but I've done done, yeah, done, Yes, guess
what time it is time to beIt's time for Trever's Tangent. Okay,
this is what's gonna be really reallyreally fast future still gar the Clown.
(41:17):
I could not recommend more. Thisis Denis Villaneuv's masterpiece. I've been a
fan of this guy since the beginning, but I highly, highly highly recommend
you see out a film called Sakario. His masterpiece, gorgeously shot by Roger
Deakins, one of our greatest cinematographersever, Cecario. The brilliance of Sacario
(41:44):
is that it's about the truth ofbanging your head against a brick wall,
thinking that you're gonna break through,and the reality of life is that you're
not going to break through. Andthen the other thing, absolutely brilliant is
that you think that it's a sociopolitical commentary on our border issues and our
(42:07):
and our law enforcement issues between Americaand the cartels in Mexico until it's not.
Until it plays its hand and showsyou what it's really about. And
it blew my mind. I watchit all the time. It's a masterpiece.
Dani Villanovakari Lease seek it out.Is that is that really the main
(42:31):
character wakes up next about Newhart?You ruin everything and that's the end of
Trevor's tangent. I was Trevor mmhmm okay, ebe okay, come on,
it was a little bit much,it was. I mean, that's
what all the memes online are withhim, like Paul, like Sneezes,
(42:53):
the Prophecy, the don to theDoom. Two memes are amazing. I
would have ever thought that done twomemes would be great. They are in
credit up everybody, keep up thehard work. They are incredible. You're
all doing a wonderful job. Amazing. I'm seeing a bunch. Every day.
They keep getting smarter and smart.It's they're so good. Well,
(43:15):
I think, Trevor, we shouldgo see the movie. We should go
see the movie together. Maybe weshould bring a little recorder and uh interview
some people and see what they think. You know. Oh, can I
just tell you before we go here? As we're wrapping up here, I
heard that Sting was offered a littlecameo in this movie and he turned it
down. Is that true? Yeah? I've read that or heard that somewhere.
Really amazing. I would have likedthat, to be honest. I
(43:37):
know that's a little inside baseball,and I know Denis is more disciplined than
that. He doesn't come. Yeah, but I don't think I don't think
that was a meda. I meantdisciplined in terms of meta reference to the
audience. But well, but thenagain, you're saying that he was offered
(43:57):
a role and it and he didn'ttake it. Is that I think it
was like a little cameo or something. Who else? Yeah, that's too
bad. Yeah, I would haveloved to have seen it. All right,
Well, that does it? Doyou have any last thoughts? Last
thoughts? We should come back tothis conversation because I could talk about Dune
forever. No, then that isyear ten thousand and ninety one. The
known universe is ruled by the PattraEmperor. Shit, I'm the fourth my
father in this time, the mostprecious substance is a spice melange. I
(44:21):
could do the whole David Lynch movieGrown Up, all three hours right from
a life knocker. So so okay, so I agree with you. When
we go see it, we shouldbring a recorder. However, I don't
think we should interview people because Ihate people. I think we should.
I think we should record Ourselveves fightshow. We got to see like a
(44:42):
nine AM show right when the credits. Oh no, let's watch like an
eight am screening somewhere or something.Just talk, actually done. I mean,
I'm not saying this as a brag, but I can get us a
private screening. If that's really let'sdo it. We're at the Bridle,
Okay, let's do it. Nono, no, no, I will
I will talk. I I'll getmy cameras school we'll do We'll do a
whole three camera shoots. Let's doit. I will ask around. That
(45:04):
would be amazing. We could doit. No when we need no win
scenario, we don't have fans.What are our fans names? No winners,
non winners scenarios. I don't know. We need names for our fans,
our listeners. I think we shouldcall them winners if we want to
have all right winners, all rightwin should stay tuned for that in our
next episode with author Derek Tyler.Attiko is coming out real soon, so
(45:28):
stay tuned. Email us at NoWin Scenario podcast at gmail dot com,
and subscribe everywhere, Trevor, subscribeeverywhere, everywhere. I just want to
note for the audience we most weagreed here, we did, but let's
be honest, you agreed with me. And with that, thanks for listening.
(45:52):
Going to quit this podcast. I'mgonna quit. I hate it.
I hate this podcast. I've woneveryone, I've won. Take care,
Thank thank you everyone, by bye. In today's world, mental health is
everyone's concern. If you are someoneyou know is in crisis, please use
(46:13):
these resources. For US listeners.Call one eight hundred nine five zero six
two sixty four or text helpline allone word h E L P L I
N E to six two six fourzero, or email helpline at nammy dot
org. That's n A m Idot org. For our international listeners,
(46:38):
please visit suicide stop dot com.That's s U I c I d E,
S t o P dot com.
Trevor, Trevor, Yes, yes, don don The beginning is the time
for taking the most delicates. Herethe prices. What what are we supposed
to talk about doing? Isn't thisour special Dune episode? This is this
is my very old copy of doonelook at this is? This is not
what we're doing. This was youridea. This is what we're doing.
We're talking. I didn't think.I didn't think we were going to start
(00:22):
out with this. Oh you meantDune Part two, the movie? That's
exactly what I meant do Part two. This book is my favorite book.
I know it is. You keptthe copy in the bathroom in your old
studio. I did multiple copies.I've got him in various states. I've
(00:43):
known you for a long time.I'm very well aware you have copies of
it everywhere. So you want totalk about the movie that that movie that
you didn't like. I would liketakt to talk about Denis Villeneuve's movie Dune
Part two, which I loved.Okay, I well, I have some
thoughts, as you might ask,Oh my god, I can't imagine you'd
(01:04):
have thoughts on it. So howabout we talk about on the show today
that sounds great, and then I'lllend you my copies. You can finally
read a book. Fantastic. Okay, let's get on with the show.
Let's get on with the show.I haven't listened to anything you've said in
the last twenty seconds. Damn it, Trevor. Oh God, I hate
you so much. Well it's you. We can cross off the reading.
(01:26):
I watch almost everything in the majorityof this terrible What is this podcast about?
My record? Damn it, Trevor. Hi, everyone, and welcome
to this very special episode of NoWhen Scenario podcast where we talk about Doom
Part two. I am don andthat strange man is waving strangely at me
(01:48):
is Trevor part part two? That'swhat that was, Trevor, How are
you just shut up and start?Okay, let's just I just want to
hold on to the part where youbreak my heart. No, no,
no, no. First of all, I didn't get to see the movie
with you because I was busy workingand I had You couldn't wait a day
to see it with me. Youcouldn't wait one day, twelve hoursas you
(02:09):
see it with me again? Howmany times have you seen it? Absolutely?
I've always seen it once. Iwould have seen more times if I
thought. But I'm going again ina few days, and then I'll go
again with you, and uh yeah, I'm very well aware. So why
am I going to break your heart? Because you're going to crap all over
it? Listen, hold on,let me just let me just show everybody
(02:34):
what your single response was to thefilm when you finally saw it. Oh,
hold on, I knew this wouldtrigger you. I know how to
trigger dude, people of all ages. You made me, You made me
so mad before you saw the film. I wrote don a novel before you
even saw saw the film about howwrong he's going to be. He finally
(02:58):
sees the movie doing part two.This in imax, big screen. This,
Well, you didn't you saw itin limax. You didn't see that?
True? Wasn't true? Yeah?I saw it in true Imax.
I'm seeing it again in true Imax. I needed a reserve seat. I
didn't have that kind of time toYeah, three hours ahead of time.
(03:19):
Actually, that's very true. Ihad to get there very very early.
I've got to get there early whenI see it again. That part is
a pain that our true Imax screendoes not have assigned seats. That sucks.
So Dawn sees it. I dowhat did you see an evening show
on Sunday? Or I saw likea seven PM show? Okay, the
three hours later, at nine fiftyfive pm, I get this single text.
(03:47):
That's it. This is all hesays about the movie. This is
it. This was his takeaway,folks. It's so pathetic, it's unbelievable,
he writes, can't believe. Ican't believe they made still Gar a
clown. That is what he gotout of every time still Guar talked.
(04:09):
I mean, that's the one.That is what he walked away with from
that movie. No, no,no, no, no, hold on
hold it's not a full epic.That's not what I walked away with.
I spent two hours in that moviethinking about what to say to you.
I was so distracted by how torespond to you. After I got out
of that movie, that that's allI could think about. No, let
(04:31):
me let me tell you something,Trevor can't taste something. I'm going to
shock you right now. I'm gonnashock you. Know you're not I really
really liked the movie. No youdidn't. I thought it was a great
movie. I really did. Iswear to God, I wanted another hour
of it. I really loved it. Okay, however, yes, yes,
however, it was a very verygood movie, A great movie for
(04:54):
the masses, very good movie.It was an interesting adaptation of Doom.
I do not think it's the bestmovie. The best Dune movie that,
of course, you don't could bemade. Uh I'm curious, don which
which? Which is the best Dunemovie made so far? Let me tell
you this, This, of courseis the best movies made so far.
(05:15):
However, this one, even thoughit's campy, even though it's bad,
this one made me appreciate how muchwas in the David Lynch movie that they
did not put in this one.And I can give you some examples if
you allow me, sir, Yeah, please, And I'm not talking about
the crazy voice attacks. Mm hmm. Dune. Wait wait, hold on,
(05:40):
hold on. I fell as Iliterally fell asleep real quick. I'm
just I'm waking down. I'm wakingthis book in my hand. Dune is
a magic mushroom fever dream of FrankKerbert. Great, right. It was
a lot of fun stuff in there, a lot of crazy stuff in there.
This Dune Part two made me appreciatethe David Lynch movie because they were
able. They tried to put somuch more of the book into that movie
(06:02):
than this one did. I willgive you just one or two examples of
things that are not crazy that Ifelt like we're missing. Where was the
guild, Trevor. The guild isso important to the book, and so
it's no, no, don theguild is important to you, to me,
to the you of the book,to make the story even stronger.
(06:24):
Okay, because it was not clear, what I just say, I again,
I love that film was very clear. That's the brilliance of what Denie
Villanov did. That thing is verydense, and he adapted it in a
very clear for the masses, cinematic, beautiful, great storytelling. What he
did new with Chawnnie I thought wasgreat. That was so great. This
(06:46):
book ends saying, even though we'reConcubine's history, will will remember us as
wives or something Jessica is saying toChawny. What he did with Jessica I
thought was really interesting. What hedid with Shawnnie was very interesting, really
good. There's pillars of society,there's the oil barons, there's the transportation
with like the whole colonial allegory partof this of the book in the in
(07:10):
the movies and taking out Spice reallyexcept from the first movie as a hint
as being so vital to space commerceand chum. Right, do you didn't
read the book though? Right?No? And I never will? You
should? You really should? No, I won't joking aside. It's it's
it's a great book and it wellokay, okay, joking aside. Listen,
(07:33):
I we talked about this before withDavid Mack. I have a I
have a genuine I have very goodreading skills. I have a genuine issue
with reading right now. It's verydifficult for me. And I've heard that
Dune has a very specific kind ofprose, that is that is possibly two
(07:56):
dense, super very dense. However, have the visuals like when I was
a kid, I started reading thebook in third grade or something. It's
a very hard book for a littlekid to read. But I had that
movie to help me guide me throughthe through the book in terms of the
visuals, so I think it wouldbe okay. But even then I would
try the audio book because I thinkyou'd find it really interesting how rich the
book is. It really is Okay, but Is there multiple version? I
(08:18):
mean serious question, is there multipleversions of the audio? Like, because
this is again weird. It alldepends on the person's voice. If I
can get into an audiobook, isthere different there different versions? I don't
know. I've never listened to theaudiobook. Yeah, I've read this book
probably three four hundred times in mylife. I mean that. Yeah,
but no, you love you lovethe book and it's my whole life.
(08:39):
Yeah, and I'm glad it's apopular hit now, so you know,
again I can't have a biased opinion. Well, the real question, hasn't
it always hasn't the book always beena hit? Or no? Was it?
Like not book? When when atfirst it builds It took a while,
so I think it was something liketwenty two publisher said no to the
book and then like some small publisheroriginally picked it up that did like appliance
(09:03):
for para manuals or something. I'mnot quite sure, so don't quote me
on that. Thankfully, no one'slistening. So it took a lot and
then it was a flop when itfirst came out, and then it built
up and built up. Yeah,what's so, it's so it's a little
strange in terms of the writing.But in that book you have the you
know, you have these pillars likethis, like Denny said, like this
is a Reverend Mother adaptation of themovie, like that's the focus. But
(09:26):
in that you had the Reverend Brothers, you had the Guild. The Guild
like they are changed from the Spiceto be able to travel through space and
ships. These are these like monstroustype secretive people and they're the power behind
everything. So the Emperor can't bean emperor without the Guild, who is
the transport. The Emperor can't bethe emperor without the great Houses, which
(09:50):
you know at the end at thegreat scene where he's like go liberate them
or send them to Paradise, andnow the frim and are great space ship
fighters. That was the one flawin the whole film. I felt to
go on to space and fight peoplethat you know, which they do sort
of in the book, but it'sdifferent. But having all these pillars of
society all be dependent upon Spice,right, What's so interesting on the political
(10:11):
side of Doune the novel that Ifelt that that was missing, that I
would, you know, and itdidn't have to be a big, a
big add on, I thought tothe movie for that, so that that
was kind of sad, you know. You know again, I love the
movie. I just wanted more.Touffer is missing. He was missing in
this one. You know, thingsthat are weird. I'll ask, who's
(10:33):
that the mentat from the first one, okay, the guy with I forgot
the actor. Yeah, he's ahuman computer. So they they do more
of that in the book with theseare mentas. So the book and the
David Lynch movie I thought was granderin scope, not better story, but
was grander in scope. It feltbigger like in the new movie. And
(10:54):
then I'll stop talking. In thenew movie, the Hearkening Planet was cool.
It was cool with the infrared.It was good gimmick. The CG
I thought was terrible a couple oftimes when the large groups of people,
I thought it looked terrible. Waitwait, wait wait wait. The CGI
in People of Villanove's Dune Part twoyou thought was terrible in two spots.
The fighting scene okay on the Heartkeuningplanet where the people were chanting and that
(11:16):
you know, they looked like itreminded me. And what was it the
Rise of Skywalker at the end whenyou saw the sith just as like shadows
in the background in the arena completelyreminded me of that they were too just
cookie cutter yeps of people doing thesame motion over and over again. Yeah.
And then when Paul standing on topof the theoretically millions of Fremin fighters.
(11:37):
Oh, and when he held upthe knife, Yeah, I thought,
just the it looked, it lookedtoo amazing. He looked amazing on
top, but less so than theHerdkening fight scene. It just looked to
copy and paste groups of people doingthe same kind but mostly in the in
the theater. That was the onlything I thought that took me out of
it, the worms and take meout of it all that I wanted more
(11:58):
fighting at the end, I kindof wanted more. The whole last bit
wrapped up too quickly. But there'sa lot, there's a lot to talk
about. There's a lot. Idon't know if there's less action in this
in this in part two, butI will say this and this, I'm
surprised it's being as it's as wellregarded as it is. I'm surprised that
(12:20):
I'm not surprised that the critics loveit. I'm surprised that the general public
loves it because I take this onething missing from this I am not complaining.
I think it's a better film.I think it works in the first
film. I don't think it wouldwork in the second film. But the
sense of adventure from the first filmcompletely gone in the second film. Wellritely
gone. Interesting. You said thatbecause my wife I asked her what she
(12:43):
thought after she saw the movie.She's only seen the first part. She
fell asleep on the David Lange fiftytimes, so she never saw it.
She's like, it was fine,but I wasn't really interested in the story
which was in it. Wow.And then I thought about it and I'm
like, well, yeah, Imean I loved it because I'm seeing to
come to life a book. Ilove characters. I know, I'm seeing
what's different that I like, seeingwhat I don't like, like still go
(13:07):
the clown right. Couldn't disagree more. But you know, I love the
acting. I just thought he wentfrom being this like leader serious thing in
the first one to like being thecomic relief silliness thing. I mean,
it was funny, but it wastoo much anyway. So I don't have
an unbiased opinion here about the story, but like she didn't care that he
(13:28):
wanted revenge and she wasn't like rootingfor him to you know, it just
wasn't enough for her. It waswell done, it was well made,
it was interesting, but she's notlike, oh God, this story was
so impactful to me or anything.Okay, two things real quick. Number
one. As much as I dislike, you know, the irony, I
think Lynch is one of our bestcontemporary filmmakers right now. I do not
(13:52):
like his version of Doune. Iwill concede that it that Denis Villeneuve's vision.
Uh, I don't think it lacksambition. It's very ambitious. It
does not have the art, directionand ambition the visual ambition of Lynch's Doune.
(14:16):
I'm gonna I'm totally gonna give youthat that winn winner that film.
Admittedly, Witch's film looks fantastic.I know people complain about the optical effects
in the end, screw you.I love optical effects. They are great.
I understand why the optical effects arethat way. It was produced by
(14:39):
Dino de Laurentis, and if you'veseen any other DNO films, all of
the opticals look like that. Itis it's not so much a Lynch's signature,
that's Dino signature. He must havehe must have had some control over
which effects house that they were goingto use for for Inch's version of Doune,
(15:01):
so that they could save money orsomething like that. I love how
the opticals look. Second thing,what he's lost? Everybody, I am,
I really am? Why I saveyou? No it, I've got
(15:24):
it. I one thing that downand I have had an argument about for
god, I think over a yearnow since it was it was announced.
This was Don's point that he kepthammering over and over and over again,
basically pre judging the movie in advance. I was going to be a failure.
(15:46):
So now I want to know howyou really, now that you've seen
the film, how you really feltabout Christopher Walking. Oh? Oh yes,
absolutely, Because I was very veryon Hint and the casting. I
didn't think the movie was gonna bebad. I was just doing that to
give you a hard time. ChristopherWalking I thought was an awful choice before
(16:07):
hind and still now. I don'tknow if it's because of him or because
he didn't have much to do.I felt like the Emperor in Lynch's version
was more interesting and more realistic,and like the Emperor like that was again
one of like the maybe the productiondesign or the ambition. Here the emperor's
planet, what did that look like? What did the court look like?
(16:29):
They were just like outside some house. Whenever we saw the Emperor, it
felt very powerless. There's no worldthere. I'm like, it feels like
a few simple exteriors or a planetor something could have added a lot in
a few spots, which is mycritique of like a lot of J.
J. Abram's films and things likethat, like the scale and the scope
and the danger and the just allof this didn't make sense, wasn't there?
(16:55):
So you know, he didn't havemuch to do, he didn't have
much to say, and he seemedpowerless to be with, Okay, which
I don't think he is in thebook, you know, he just he
seemed like, I don't know,and he sounded like Christopher Walkin. It's
hard for him not to sound likehim. So my favorite, my favorite
film critic, Mark Kmode loved thefilm, but he came down really hard
(17:17):
on walking. Oh did he?Yes? He was. He was like
Walkin was doing his walking thing,and this was not the movie for that
exactly. He was doing his insiderwinky. You know, I'm gonna pause
in the middle of this sentence forno reason and then accentuate the next word,
(17:42):
which is not a word to beaccentuated, and then finished the sentence.
He wasn't. I don't completely agreewith that, but I have to
admit as much as I love walking, are you agreeing? Uh, I'm
(18:03):
kind of agreeing with you. Yeah, I mean I I like the performance
because he he I don't know ifhe's supposed to be, but he looked
tired. He did like it wasan interesting choice. I think it was
the wrong choice. Whether it washe did, it would have been a
good choice. Hergan procknow from thefirst movie, the original movie. Well,
(18:26):
h I'm not is he heard of? I'm sorry that that was sorry
that was later a trades. I'msorry that was later a trades. I
don't remember the actor's name for well, for the emperor, but you know
what didn't feel like a royal.It didn't feel like someone with power who
was used to the trappings of office, to all this stuff. It was
like this Porsche lub in his garden, you know, I mean, Erlin
was okay, she was fine,but like, was that Florence Pugh?
(18:48):
Yeah, yeah, you know,it just it's felt so unroyal, so
small. And it was a weirdchoice too, to have Paul be the
one to send a letter to him, to have him come and meet with
him on a racus at the end. You know, doesn't that fit with
the film? That that that visualhold on not the book. I'm talking
(19:11):
about the overall aesthetic with Like,the film is a war between minimalism and
maximalism, and there's stuff that's veryminimal and then I got to say,
don seeing it in full imax,then there's stuff that's massive and filling the
screen. I got. I satthere, I had a great seat,
(19:33):
and I'm like, I wish Iwas watching this movie. I'm a vision
pro because it's so much cooler.That would have been amazing. I can't
wait to see it on that becausethat's better than going to any movie theaters.
I plug for Apple, but watchingit that way is amazing. You
got to come see I disagree,it wouldn't. It's not going to be
as great as seeing it at Jordan's. It's just not. It's not,
Oh, it's not. It's aresolute the Resolute I had how big screen
(19:56):
is you get? Yeah? Anyway, and I I hope they release it
in actual full Imax on the Visionpro because Dune two is all the four
k U H D Blu ray isalready up for pre order and you can
only get the Scope version, justlike the first. And I'm so I'm
guessing that when denis done the trilogy, there will be a box set and
(20:19):
you'll actually be able to get theImax versions. Interesting, well, there's
a bunch of for the Vision there'sa bunch of Imax ones available. Yeah,
there's an actual Imax app so yeah, and then again like through Disney
you can see the Imax those thosesome of those films Imax version. So
I understand that. But again inthe in the David Lynch movie, in
the book, the reason that theEmperor comes to Racus is because the baron's
(20:42):
failed is failing, you know atthis and the Emperor comes for business being
like I'm gonna get the order right, and here he's like I've been summoned
here, I'm gonna talk to thisguy, right, you know. So
it's like less of a presence ofa thing and part of the great Houses
is that they are. You don'tagree, I agree, Oh you agree?
(21:07):
God, will you stop that?And the great houses being there,
like the Emperor brings great houses there, but the great houses are so dependent
on spice that Paul goes, Iwill blow up with the atomics the spice,
and you will all be trapped inyour planets. And so that's how
he becomes emperor. Right. Yes, there's jihad that happens going forward,
(21:30):
but I just feel like that waslike, Ah, that's too bad,
that's not there I didn't need.In the book, Paul and Chawney have
a son who gets killed in thebattle, a little one. I didn't
need that. We didn't need Alia, a weird toddler walking around like you
know, she's the one who killsthe baron like in the movie you've seen,
you know. Like, so therewere things that he skipped, which
I get. But the sort ofpillars of the society of Doune is number
(21:53):
one thing that I feel like wasmissing. And number two, the sort
of psychedelic pressions and seeing the futureand all that that was very It was
such a light touch in this film. And again, I love this movie.
I can't wait to see it again. Right again. It was a
really really awesome movie for everyone,and it was a good, interesting adaptation,
but I don't think it's the bestdo movie that could have been.
(22:14):
And it's very small point there.Okay, so Rich, this is not
an insulting question. It's a genuinequestion. It is something that I've been
pointing out to you time and timeagain, and it's okay to admit.
Don I have this about a lotof films? Do you because of your
love for the book, because ofhow influenced it's not just your love of
(22:38):
Winch's done, but how influential thatmovie is for you saw it at a
you saw it during formative years.Yes, you probably looked at that movie
and said, I didn't even knowyou could do that with a movie like
this? Blew my mind open.Do you lack objectivity? Coubjectivity? I
absolutely do. I lacked objectivity,But you just think about how much better
(23:04):
it could be. And I don'tthink that's wrong. Even though I don't
have that objectivity, you know thatthere's material there to draw from that could
have made it better? Could ithave? Could the addition of that material
made the film too dense, because, in my opinion, Lynch one.
It is dense. It's not atall. But that's why I'm so obscresed
(23:26):
with the Lynch version, because there'sso much crammed in there. Right Well,
that's the problem with the Lynch version. Crammed in the last half an
hour is like a Christopher Nolan expositiondump on steroids, like it's that last
half dawn. Give me the lasthalf an hour. That last half an
hour's ridiculous. It goes through likeninety books in twenty minutes. It's ridiculous.
(23:48):
Don give it to me. Idisagree. I disagree. I disagree.
I disagree. I disagree. Youknow, and I think the fact
that he's un interested and unwilling todo any book adaptation after Dune Messiah shows
that he played it too safe.Because Trevor, I'm going to run some
things for you right now, seeaarnack at these. I don't think who
(24:12):
is the main character of the Duneseries? Who do you think of the
Dune series? Paul's sister incorrect?Okay, who's the main character of this
whole set of books? M duncanIdaho? Okay? Interesting because my friend
(24:33):
Brian, who were going to haveon the show soon. Don and Brian
met at a at a screening ofLynch's Dune at the Bridle Theater in Cambridge
last year, and they're both massivefans of the book and massive fans of
(24:56):
Lynch's Dune. They I honestly thoughtDown was gonna cheat on his wife that
night with my friend Brian. Theyfell in love so quickly with each other,
and it was quite a sight tobehold. Wow. One thing that
(25:18):
I believe it was Brian that mentionedhe absolutely loved Doune Part two, the
movie. Loved it. I've alreadyseen it. I've already seen it a
few times. And he I believeit was him that said, but I
missed Duncan So is that? AndI got to be honest, I missed
(25:41):
Duncan. You remember who it was? I remember Momoa? Yeah, okay,
yeah yeah. I mean he dies, he dies in the book.
He just comes back later on anotherbook, right, I like, how
is that even set up in thesemovies? It's not. I well,
I wouldn't be surprised if Dennie andhis writers maybe don't bring up They're not
(26:07):
going to bring back for Messiah,he comes back. Children God Emperor is
a great book it's crazy. Idon't know if you know this, but
god Ember of Dune is a massivework. The whole book centers around Paul's
son, who lives for ten thousandyears I think, and is a giant
sandworm and the talks. Well,I like, there's no way I'm going
to make this, but it's itwould be fascinating to try. I've heard
(26:29):
it. The books, according tomy friend Brian, like, they get
crazier and crazier, crazier because becauseFrank just Craig Herbert the writer, Yeah,
went too many mushrooms. Yeah,but I got to tell you,
god Eber of Dune, it's avery interesting book. It's dense, it's
political, it's good. Can youbring a giant talking sandworm who has a
(26:53):
love interest to life, right,you know that's a challenge. But you
know, again, the fact thathe said it shows that he was playing
it safe the whole time. Andyes, the fight scene with the infrared
in black and white very cool,very cool, But that doesn't mean it
wasn't safe. Right now, andso much of doing is the politics,
(27:17):
you know, Like he added inwith the Ferring or whatever with her name
fed Fenring, the Countess Fendring.She was was that Leis? Was that
Lais to do? I believe?Is that her? Yeah? Yeah,
okay, I believe. You know. They cut out you know, her
husband, the Count, you know, in the both Lynch and Villain new
I can't say his name that Isay, right, yeah, both versions.
(27:40):
They cut out this great scene inthe first part, or would have
been the first movie, where there'sa dinner with the water traders and the
smugglers and and Paul's father that reallygets into the whole political stuff. So
again, the political side of things, the structural things for the society and
all the different worlds were just kindof missing. And it seemed small.
You know, it seems small forsuch a big looking film. In a
(28:04):
way, the galaxy seems small.There's nothing mystical and magical. There was
no guild there, really, therewas no like, oh, this is
the mysteries of traveling through space.There's so much that could have been peppered
in. Even so, uh II initially heard, I I initially uh
(28:26):
read and heard by people who sawthis film before I did, And I
initially rolled my eyes when I firstheard this. But there are a lot
of comparisons to David Leane and Lawrenceof Arabia. Have you ever seen Warrens
of Arabia? Of course? Okay, so Lawrence of Arabia. That's when
that wait is. That is thatwhen the guy is on the it's a
(28:48):
sergic five bit. All right,never shut up and let me make my
point there. It has a massivevisual scope and it and story wise,
it has the intimacy of a ofa character drama. Now, when I
saw Doom Part two, I waslike, yes, this is very David
(29:10):
Leyne. This is kind of Lawrenceof Arabia. That it it. It
had a massive scope versus and intimacywith the characters. And it sounds like
that bothered you a bit. Theintimacy is fine, Actually there was,
Like I was reading one thing thatmentioned like in the books, when Gurney
comes back after being a smuggler,he's so suspicious of Jessica because he thinks
(29:34):
she was the trader. They didn'tknow who the trader was, right,
so he thinks it's her. Hetries to assassinate Jessica. It stopped.
Paul explains what's going on, andthen he becomes indebted to Paul again.
Essentially, but he thinks he's avengingit, so like there there were there
were little moments that could have stillbeen there, having those intimate moments.
So it's not that I just thinkthere's there was no reason to leave out
(29:57):
certain things. So I got onemore question for you, and then I
just want to move into Dune Parttwo exclusively and if we can just leave
the book and Lynch out of it. We've we've made a lot of comparisons
and I'm sorry this is a spoiler. We should probably put a spoiler warning
at the beginning of this episode thing, but spoilers spoilers. So this is
(30:21):
a question for you, Yes,sir, Anya Taylor Joy or Alisha Witt,
Alicia Witt. We're talking about theactress who played Alia. Are you
saying Alicia Witt as a child oras a don I want I want you
to ask me the same question.Alicia Witt or Anya Whatever Toy, Taylor
(30:44):
whatever her name is, Queen's Cambit, Alicia Witt. Do we agree on
something? Yes? And that's becauseI am ride or die for Alicia Witt,
an unbelievable talent. Yeah, well, local, local person. She's
from here, and we're comparing tosomeone who was like a five year old
(31:06):
versus yes, twenty five year old. But in terms of I think in
the film, I would have likedto see listen. I love Anya Taro
Joy. She's very, very talentedactor. I saw her. I did
like the Menu, by the way, that's a fun movie. Menu is
great. I love it and I'mlooking forward to her Furiosa film. Though.
(31:29):
I just wish they brought Charlie's back, but I don't know how they
do it, but I wish nointerest. You're an idiot. I would
have liked to have seen that characterin Dune two portrayed as younger, because
she's crazy and weird and like,you know, knocked up of the book.
But in the book, Thomas's wifekeeps her safe. There's no Joma's
(31:51):
wife in this, which is interesting. You know, it's a weird character
who's like really intense and creeps outthe fromen and so you know to do
to because she's because she's five yearsold in the Lynch version, and she
she reads her lines like a fiveyear old. She does come across as
it's creepy from which she is,and she's creepy her whole life, her
(32:14):
whole existence, in the new novels, if she's creepy and knows too much
and all that stuff, and againthat sort of connection, like you know,
like Jessica drinks the water of life. You know, it's sort of
hinted at that the old reverend motherdies at the same time, letting her
live. But it's not like Jessicawas supposed to die from that, right,
but the Reverend Mother kept her alive. Like it's just these small little
(32:37):
choices that I don't think were necessaryto skip over, right, you know?
So okay two, Part three,what's going to happen. Let's just
let's just get to do too.Let me let me say my piece about
the family. I got a coupleof things to say. Sit here.
Number one, I have never seenthe movie Elvis, and I have no
(32:59):
I never will, I am not. Will you cut the crap put the
book down? Yeah? Shut up? I hate you? Uh yeah?
And uh I've only seen two performancesby Austin Butler. Number one was in
Tarantino's Once upon a Time in Hollywood, which he is excellent, and number
(33:22):
two doing Part two, which heis funenominal in this film his incredible what
what I uh? I wrote apost on on Facebook because I'm old,
and I wrote about how this guyhas single handedly corded the market on villains
(33:44):
that are just filled with tired tropes. And you've seen this a million times,
but somehow I really believe, bothin Once Upon Time in Hollywood and
this that this guy is rotten.That you feel the rot. That's why
I use the word rot. Youcan just feel the rot inside of him.
(34:05):
And he is God. He's sogood in this film. It's a
it's a great performance. Number two, Wonka, I do you like Wwonka?
Hey man? I went into Wonkawith an open mind on that movie.
No, I meant like the actorwas his name Tom Tim Wonka shot
(34:28):
stop it stop it, stop itwait on this kind of time. Number
two, My heart broke for Zendayain this film. She did a great
job. My heart was, Isaid part one. She had nothing to
do and she was there for likea day of film or whatever it was,
and it was a waste of spacein that movie. I thought she
did a great job. It wasan interesting addition to the to the lore
(34:49):
here how they had her storm offand it was great. Now Number three,
this is going to be long,winded, but I actually think you'll
be interested in what I have tosay. You've got five minutes. This
is where I lack objectivity with thefilm. I I'm going to get very
personal here. I was raised byfundamentalist extremists and it was very damaging and
(35:22):
it resulted in a lot of traumafor myself and my sisters. This film
spoke to me on such a personallevel. I took it. I was
so moved by this message of youknow, prophecies versus just plain old common
(35:51):
sense, and how Paul is destinedto be this leader for now, but
as that is gonna end up maybebeing their destruction in the end. I
was so moved by this. Imean I can't. I have thought about
(36:15):
it non stop, and that reallyreally spoke to me because I can't listen.
I'm not I'm for our listeners,I listen. I am not criticizing
you how you brought up what youbelieve in. I am just saying for
me, and I'm not going togo into specific examples that how I was
raised in a very very similar situationand it was so damaging to my siblings
(36:44):
and I and it was it wasan absolutely horrible experience. I could not
believe this message was being said onsuch a big scale movie. I can't
believe this film is doing as Idon't hear a lot of controversy around this
message. I don't think people,Trevor. Here's the thing. I think
(37:05):
half the audiences who love it didn'tget it. They think Paul's the hero,
like, yeah, he won,Well, that's it. And I
think that was a mistake of thefilm, a little bit that could have
been more fleshed out. Hair Imegain. It's a long movie, there's
a lot to do, but thatcould have been fleshed out more than he
could be. You know, it'sit's sort of said if you know it's
there. But I think a lotof people missed it, right, Okay,
(37:27):
okay, two points real quick.My friend Brian said the same thing.
He was so frustrated because he's he'slike so many people I know who
have seen it have come up tome and complain that they're like, oh
my god, Paul's another white savior. Why are we see And he's like,
did you completely miss the point ofthat film? Because clearly they did
(37:50):
it. He is not a saviorof anything, right, I mean,
maybe for that moment, but itis very clear in that film that what,
you know, the incredible damage thatPaul is going to bring in the
(38:12):
future. Now my last point,they should have showed it. You know,
they have still goar, I'm sorry, still go to the clown jumping
on a jumping on a ship andthen going off to you know, like
attack. But they could have theycould have really pushed pressed on that.
So I know we got to wrapup my last question for you as we're
(38:37):
going to go back to the booksas a book reader. Uh, you
said to me that a few monthsago. I remember it perfectly. You
said, there's no way Villaneuve isgoing to do Dune Messiah. No way,
no, no, you said DuneMessiah. Don I never heard that.
(38:59):
I not on the show, becauseyou know, there's Dune Messiah,
then there's Children of Dune, which, by the way, I have a
sawt spot for the sci fi versionof Children of Doune. You should watch
that. What's what's what's not?The argument? I have a genuine question,
Yes, there was done Part two, Dude Messiah? Was it?
Kind of dude Messiah? Is it? Setting Upsia was originally written as the
(39:22):
end of the Dune the book,but you know, it's long enough to
be a shorter book. So doesdoes it look like the third film is
going to be Dune Messiah. That'smy understanding that eventually he's going to do
it in the book. I thinkit's been a while Villa, who have
only said he's doing three films threethat's it out right because the children.
(39:43):
I think he's afraid to do Childrenof Dune. It has to do with
like Leedo, Paul's sun starting toturn into a sandworm in a way,
and dealing with the more mystical stuffof like the Golden Path, like what
the future is for humankind and gettingpeople to survive ten thousand years in the
future and so on. So Ithink he wants to avoid that into a
more traditional story, which this isin a way. So dude, Messiah
(40:07):
is it'd be interesting because it's lessof an easy story in that it's a
bad guy and overcoming. It's allabout like the failures of Paul and what
Paul is afraid to do. PaulI'm spoiling. The book goes often too
the desert to die blind because he'safraid to do what his son will eventually
do. And become that sandworm,right, and he needed to become a
(40:31):
sandworm and rule for ten thousand yearsto guide mankind viciously, to make them
survive a dark future down the road. Paul just can't bring himself to do
it. Essentially, that's the book. And he has twins, so and
it's all about the forces that aretrying to bring Paul down. Those forces
(40:52):
are not even hinted at in thesemovies, So I have no idea what
he's going to do for this movie. I'm sure to be great. I'm
sure to be but I've done done, yeah, done, Yes, guess
what time it is time to beIt's time for Trever's Tangent. Okay,
this is what's gonna be really reallyreally fast future still gar the Clown.
(41:17):
I could not recommend more. Thisis Denis Villaneuv's masterpiece. I've been a
fan of this guy since the beginning, but I highly, highly highly recommend
you see out a film called Sakario. His masterpiece, gorgeously shot by Roger
Deakins, one of our greatest cinematographersever, Cecario. The brilliance of Sacario
(41:44):
is that it's about the truth ofbanging your head against a brick wall,
thinking that you're gonna break through,and the reality of life is that you're
not going to break through. Andthen the other thing, absolutely brilliant is
that you think that it's a sociopolitical commentary on our border issues and our
(42:07):
and our law enforcement issues between Americaand the cartels in Mexico until it's not.
Until it plays its hand and showsyou what it's really about. And
it blew my mind. I watchit all the time. It's a masterpiece.
Dani Villanovakari Lease seek it out.Is that is that really the main
(42:31):
character wakes up next about Newhart?You ruin everything and that's the end of
Trevor's tangent. I was Trevor mmhmm okay, ebe okay, come on,
it was a little bit much,it was. I mean, that's
what all the memes online are withhim, like Paul, like Sneezes,
(42:53):
the Prophecy, the don to theDoom. Two memes are amazing. I
would have ever thought that done twomemes would be great. They are in
credit up everybody, keep up thehard work. They are incredible. You're
all doing a wonderful job. Amazing. I'm seeing a bunch. Every day.
They keep getting smarter and smart.It's they're so good. Well,
(43:15):
I think, Trevor, we shouldgo see the movie. We should go
see the movie together. Maybe weshould bring a little recorder and uh interview
some people and see what they think. You know. Oh, can I
just tell you before we go here? As we're wrapping up here, I
heard that Sting was offered a littlecameo in this movie and he turned it
down. Is that true? Yeah? I've read that or heard that somewhere.
Really amazing. I would have likedthat, to be honest. I
(43:37):
know that's a little inside baseball,and I know Denis is more disciplined than
that. He doesn't come. Yeah, but I don't think I don't think
that was a meda. I meantdisciplined in terms of meta reference to the
audience. But well, but thenagain, you're saying that he was offered
(43:57):
a role and it and he didn'ttake it. Is that I think it
was like a little cameo or something. Who else? Yeah, that's too
bad. Yeah, I would haveloved to have seen it. All right,
Well, that does it? Doyou have any last thoughts? Last
thoughts? We should come back tothis conversation because I could talk about Dune
forever. No, then that isyear ten thousand and ninety one. The
known universe is ruled by the PattraEmperor. Shit, I'm the fourth my
father in this time, the mostprecious substance is a spice melange. I
(44:21):
could do the whole David Lynch movieGrown Up, all three hours right from
a life knocker. So so okay, so I agree with you. When
we go see it, we shouldbring a recorder. However, I don't
think we should interview people because Ihate people. I think we should.
I think we should record Ourselveves fightshow. We got to see like a
(44:42):
nine AM show right when the credits. Oh no, let's watch like an
eight am screening somewhere or something.Just talk, actually done. I mean,
I'm not saying this as a brag, but I can get us a
private screening. If that's really let'sdo it. We're at the Bridle,
Okay, let's do it. Nono, no, no, I will
I will talk. I I'll getmy cameras school we'll do We'll do a
whole three camera shoots. Let's doit. I will ask around. That
(45:04):
would be amazing. We could doit. No when we need no win
scenario, we don't have fans.What are our fans names? No winners,
non winners scenarios. I don't know. We need names for our fans,
our listeners. I think we shouldcall them winners if we want to
have all right winners, all rightwin should stay tuned for that in our
next episode with author Derek Tyler.Attiko is coming out real soon, so
(45:28):
stay tuned. Email us at NoWin Scenario podcast at gmail dot com,
and subscribe everywhere, Trevor, subscribeeverywhere, everywhere. I just want to
note for the audience we most weagreed here, we did, but let's
be honest, you agreed with me. And with that, thanks for listening.
(45:52):
Going to quit this podcast. I'mgonna quit. I hate it.
I hate this podcast. I've woneveryone, I've won. Take care,
Thank thank you everyone, by bye. In today's world, mental health is
everyone's concern. If you are someoneyou know is in crisis, please use
(46:13):
these resources. For US listeners.Call one eight hundred nine five zero six
two sixty four or text helpline allone word h E L P L I
N E to six two six fourzero, or email helpline at nammy dot
org. That's n A m Idot org. For our international listeners,
(46:38):
please visit suicide stop dot com.That's s U I c I d E,
S t o P dot com.
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