204 - Star Trek Author Derek Tyler Attico and Remembering Johnny Lee Davenport.

Star Trek Author Derek Tyler Attico discusses "The Autobiography of Benjamin Sisko" and the impact of Deep Space Nine 31 years later. Trevor interrupts Don with another "Trevor's Tangent" and the duo pay tribute to the late Johnny Lee Davenport. 

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
I haven't listened to anything you've saidin the last twenty seconds. Damnit,
Trevor. Oh God, I hateyou so much. Well it to you.
We can cross off the reading.I watch almost everything in the majority
of this terrible What is this podcastabout? My record? He's turning off?
Damnit, Trevor. Welcome back toNo When scenario. It is twenty

(00:24):
twenty four, Trevor. So goodto see you. How are you doing.
I'm doing great, Don and sogood to see you. Oh,
good to see you. It's beenweeks since I saw you. What have
you been out? It's been wonderful, wonderful weeks since I've seen you.
We're just having you absent from mylife. I feel like I've grown as
a person. I feel more opportunitieshave come my way. I feel that

(00:46):
the depression that I suffer from andwas magically lifted. I kind of wondered
you and I were both sick,laying in bed for most of this breakout.
I was pretty sick. I wasvery sick, and I'm still.
I've got that lingering cough and nostuff. So this is fun. Yeah,
well we're back. We're back.Got some great gas lined up for

(01:07):
season two. Can you believe wemade season two? Appena, I can't
believe it. So before we geton with our special guests, anything you've
been watching, reading, loving nothing, No one cares, No one cares.
I missed. I missed a lotbecause I was sick. You recommended
a monarch to me. That's beenkind of fun. Yeah, and I

(01:27):
bailed on it because I thought itsucked after a four episode. It started
out great. Then I bailed,but so great it was. It was
promising it. It didn't start it. It started out fine, fine.
I gotta say for All Mankind,solid, solid, really, because I've
heard both good things and bad things. I'm about to start it. I

(01:48):
love it. Yeah, I needto finish the Crown. I need to
finish Fargo. I need to finishthe Curse. I need to finish the
final season of Letter Kenny. Andthen I'll get to that. I'll get
to for All Mankind audience. Eventhough we've edited the breakout, Don literally
just walked away from the podcast,walked away from his desk, barked orders

(02:10):
at his minions. I heard oneof them cry as they watch Trevor.
I was so bored by you.What what have you been able to watch
not much. Oh man, doyou know what time it is done?
Because I don't know. It's tooearly in the years, too early in
the year. Don't care what youdo. You know what time it is

(02:35):
done. It's time for Trevor's tangent. Okay, real quick, real quick.
Let's remind people of the rules here, Trevor. The rules are is
that I get my own tangent.This is a new uh. Every time
we do an episode of the podcastis a new part of the format.
We're gonna just I'm just gonna interrupt, break away, you know, talk

(02:58):
about something that might not have anythingto do with science fiction at all.
And the beautiful thing about it isthat Dawn can't say a word, not
a single word, like we're losingad revenue right now by you speaking treverse
tangent. Okay, real quick,real quick. Here is quick my top
ten list of movies I saw intwenty twenty three. Now the best film

(03:23):
that I saw in twenty twenty threehas actually been delayed until twenty twenty four,
so that is evil does not exist. By Raisuki Hamaguchi, the director
of Drive My Car, which wasnominated for a bunch of Oscars last year.
It's a masterpiece. When it comesout later this year, everybody sees
it. Everybody please see it.Number ten. Bo Is Afraid by Ari

(03:45):
Aser Great film. Number nine availableon Netflix. The Killer by David Fincher.
Number eight shot right here in Boston. The Holdovers by Alexander Payne.
Number seven. Pasted Lives directed byCeline Song Number six. John Wick Chapter
four directed by Chad Stealhalski. I'venever seen any John Wicks? Should I

(04:10):
shut the hell up? Number five? The best science fiction film of the
year. Godzilla minus one by TakashiYamazaki. Number two. We see that
black and whiter color because I knowthey were releasing it. You should see
it in color, and you shouldshut the hell up. Number four.
Best horror film of the year,El Conde by the Chilean director Pablo Lorraine.

(04:33):
Incredible film. Number three Priscilla bySophia Coppola. Actually number two is
the best horror film of the year. That is Birth Rebirth, a directorial
debut by Laura Moss. It's kindof a contemporary twist on the Frankenstein story.
Best horror film of the year andmost impressive directorial debut I've seen it

(04:55):
in a while and at number oneon Netflix right now May December, by
director Todd Haynes, kind of aretelling sort of of the Mary kay Laterno
story with a twist. One ofthe most bonkers, courageous films I've seen

(05:15):
in quite a while. That rightthere is my top ten films of twenty
twenty three. Go on my loveliesand watch my films that I recommend.
And that is all for Treverse Tangentone more time, Treverse Tangent, two
more times, Trevers Tangent, TrevisTangent. Wow, did you see any

(05:43):
of those films? No? God, you're pathetic. I will see God,
and you want and you want meto see The Creator, which I
just Oh, I want to watchit, but I just can't get motivated.
H It's worth seeing the movie theaterif it's still out somewhere, still
available somewhere. Probably it's on Huluright now. Yeah. Yeah, it
was okay. You know, Iguess what was okay about it? I

(06:05):
mean it was a fine sci fimovie. It was not worth all the
hype. I mean we were hearingall the hype because of the cameras and
all that stuff. I thought itwas noisy and and cheap and stuff.
It was fine. You thought youthought, because they shot it on the
Sony f x three that it lookedcheap in a way, I mean a
certain style, which was fine.So I tried not to think about what

(06:27):
cameras they shoot a film on.It's all I kept hearing about. It
was fine, it was fine.Well, what about the story? I
heard the story lifts from a youknow a lot of things, uh,
you know, Blade Runner and nothingsuper original, but that's here's kind of
racist. Interesting. Did you getthat feeling? Honestly, I was just

(06:47):
looking at all the noise in theimage most of the time, really focused
on the story. I can't remembermost of it. The noise in the
image was so distracted that you couldn'teven pick say, it's been a while.
It's been on and months, soit's been quite some time. I
do appreciate you not putting Leave theWorld Behind on your list. Did you
see that on Netflix? Yet?I did see Leave the World Behind on

(07:09):
Netflix. And I'm a big bigfan of Sam s Mayo, especially his
show that Nobody Saw, which Ithought was one of his best works,
is called Homecoming, which I thinkhas Julia Roberts' best performance. I actually
think Julia Roberts and Sam es Maolare are perfect. They he brings things

(07:29):
out of her that she's never donein her career. I thought she did
great. You know. All theactors were fine stringed film though strange,
film overstylized, but that's Sam smayol a a awful lot of stuff,
like the animals, and I don'twant to get you know, spoil anything,
right, but like there was abunch of things that they could pay
off. I liked, you know, the setup, but it was like
two and a half hours to getthrough the setup and then that was it.

(07:50):
Even though it was an obvious specialeffect, I thought the barge coming
up on the beach was an incrediblesegment. And I don't see that a
lot, you know. I waslike, man, I'd love to see
that. This is what I wouldhave loved to have seen that on the
big screen. And you know what, I will say this, even though
it didn't make my top ten ofthe year or even my honorable mentions list,

(08:13):
which I spared all of you of, I will say this, it
had the most honest scene of anymovie I saw this year, and that
that honesty is is that when youare a media nerd like I am,
and you have Julia Roberts in yourhouse and it's the end of the world,
you don't do any preparation. Youdon't start, you know, saving

(08:35):
water or you know, canning orpreserving food. Instead you take her to
see your vinyl collection. That isthe most honest moment of Eddie film.
I saw like in twenty twenty three, and then you laughed so hard.
I was like, Yeah, that'sexactly what I would be doing. Yeah,

(08:56):
a certain class of people, Ithink, but I do. I
do. I am in for allmankind. I think. If you haven't
seen it, watch all seasons.I enjoy the show very much, and
I'm looking forward. This is thefinal season, right, I don't know.
No, I don't think so.I think we're at the final episode.
I hope it's on the final season, okay. And one, well,
this is the current season. Yeah, it's this eighty six, eighty

(09:18):
five or two thousand and four maybesomething. Oh really, wow, I
think yeah, Actually, I don'tknow. But they're on Mars and and
no, it's a lot of starTrek folks that are, you know,
involved in the show and it's interesting. It's like basically how you get to
Star Trek or how you get tothe Expanse, which is in two different
ways that the show could essentially goyeah yeah, because they had the strike
happening, and that's an interesting kindof like setup for what happens many years

(09:41):
later with the Expanse or not rightright right. I think it's a more
hopeful show then where that would headto, you know, where that precursor
would be, that type of story. Don Dona is actually really happy.
I texted him one night and Itold him that I begrudgingly started watching Lower
Decks. Oh my god, I'monly a couple episodes in, and tell
me, tell me I like it. It's funny. I listen, this

(10:05):
is a better every season. Thisis not a fair comparison at all.
It's probably not even correct. Itis a a I'm going to tell you
right now, it's not even fair. I just I feel like, even
though the humor isn't similar at all, I just feel like an executive saw

(10:31):
how well Rick and Morty was doingand was like, let's do that with
Star Trek, and that right awayput me off of it. I had
no interest in a cartoon version ofStar Trek. I don't watch product either,
did I. When I first heardit was announced, I was like,
terrible idea, Why would you dothis? It's like, but you
know what, it's a love letterto the fans, and just every season
it's just more and more. Sucha love letter to the fans. It's

(10:54):
so funny, so smart. Mykid and I enjoy watching it. The
crossover episode was Stranger Worlds. Idon't think you've seen that one yet.
I saw the Strange New World's episodeis over. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
So I'm holding off on watching thelast two episodes of Strange New World
so we can talk about it here. Oh, let's do the Subspace Rhapsody.
Oh, we should do that next. Ye. I have not watched

(11:15):
them. I've held off on themusical episodes. So that weekend we're gonna
do that. We're gonna watch that. We'll do that tomorrow. Yeah.
Fantastic, amazing, amazing. Well, I will say this audience, Don
is very very passionate about lower decks, and I'm like not being insulting,
and after a while I just hadto break down and be like, well,
if he enjoys it this much,I might as well give it a
shot. Even though I told himto go see Godzilla Minus one, you

(11:37):
want to watch it, I toldhim again to watch Evangelion. Oh wait,
that's what I did. I watchedthe first Evangelian Rebuild movie, even
though some people have said, don'teven bother, and you know what,
I liked it. So it's basicallythese are movie retellings of the series with
a lot of changes. And Iwatched part one. I still have two,
three and four to go, andI I liked part one quite a

(12:01):
bit. Well, Trevor, oneof these days I'll get around to it,
and one of these days you'll getaround to Babylon five. But I
already started Babylon five. I watchedlike six or seven episodes. We've discussed
this on this podcast. Keep goingmany times. Watch the entire thing.
It's a novel god anyway. Butyesterday was the thirty first anniversary of Star

(12:22):
Trek Deep Space nine, premiering whatyesterday was the thirty first anniversary of Star
Trek Deep Space nine premiering Deep SpaceDeep Space nine. Yes, I've never
ever heard of Deep Space nine?Is that a Is that a Star Trek

(12:45):
thing? Well, Trevor that's goingto make our interview coming up very awkward
because coming up we have the author. Okay, okay, let's go back
and redo that part. You're right, Oh no, we're keeping this in.
We're keeping this up. That's afair Eric Tyler at Listen. I
saw the pilot of Deep Space ninewhen it aired. I saw that was
the that was the one where yousee Cisco jettisoned from the ship because it

(13:11):
has to do with that Borg episodefrom uh Next Generation? Where is that
the one where where Picard gets kidnappedand everybody gets ki show if you're yeah,
because it was it was ninety yearsago. Okay, you're old enough,
you're older than me, like itwas your childhood. It was.

(13:33):
I saw the pilot, and thepilot was very good, and I continued
with the episodes and I just reallyafter that and I realized it just wasn't
for me. I was very young. I want yo, Well, okay,
I was young. I wanted more. I've wanted more, uh,
I want more action and Deep Spacenine was a have a feeling. As

(13:56):
an adult, I would I wouldprobably find it far more appealing and like
you possibly think it's the best StarTrek show ever. I mean, that's
your thing, right, Deep Spacenine is the best the one Deep Space
nine, to you is the bestStar Trek show ever made. Right,
that's your whole thing. Yes,yes, Now, I think Strange New

(14:18):
Worlds is a great show. Ilove Next Generation, I love the original
Discovery I watched and I enjoy.So I really don't have anyone that I
particalarly don't like. But Deep Spacenine was the one that really hit home
for me the most. I thinkit's I just showed my my daughter,
who's just nine, she saw duetfor the first time, which I know
means nothing to you, but tosome of our listeners will know how impactful
that episode was in the first season. But I do think, Trevor,

(14:41):
if you got to the last twoto three seasons, you would like it
because then it became a longer story. Okay, I mean maybe I'll do
that because I'm getting you know,Strange New Worlds has you know, got
has you know got me excited aboutTrek again? So you know that's now
let's let's kind of extrapolate on this. What what is it about Deep Space

(15:05):
nine? Like, is it level? Is it the cast, is it
the directing, which you know,the directing in TV those days really wasn't
that good. It was still soapoperay TV. It still it looks stated,
you know a little bit. Soyou know, it wasn't that it
was the stories. It was thatthe characters. It was not black and
white. It's that they didn't resetyou know, every episode like it was

(15:28):
you know, long form storytelling ityou know later on more so it was
much more interesting. They had todeal with stuff in one location. It
wasn't just the monster of the weekor the bad guy of the week.
And there was a lot of thingsgoing on there. You know, there
was conflict within the characters. Youknow. Again, according to modern standards,
it would feel normal. Who wasupdated, you know, the direction

(15:50):
and the look and feel, Butback then it was rare. Now what
it was so great? I mean, such great characters they had. Yeah,
I'm not I'm honestly just just asking. I'm not trying to you know,
insult Deep Space nine. But didit did it have enough of I

(16:12):
remember reading that the ratings for theshow weren't necessarily there. It was just
enough? Is that what it was? It was just enough to keep going?
And what was that was it becauseof the syndication that they were able
to find enough viewers to keep itgoing. I think so. But part

(16:32):
of the problem too is that youknow, DS nine and Next Gen overlap
by a year, and then Voyagercame out and became ship right for I
guess was it PTN I'm sorry,right, whatever it was. I remember
starting Voyager being far more excited aboutBoyer. People really more excited about Voyager
because it was like, it's likethe new Deck generation kind of thing.

(16:52):
So it kind of got sandwiched andstuck in a way, and you know,
it did take a few years forit to like really step into gear.
There were some really weird, badepisodes, but Next Gen had a
horrible first couple of seasons us afew episodes, so I think it never
had the chance to like fully getout there because people just came on to
Voyager and kind of skipped it over, or they felt it was too dark
at the time, you know,things like that. But why should we

(17:15):
talk about it. Let's get Derekout here, so you know what,
let me you can edit this outif you want. I just want to
ask a couple more questions, whichI believe will lead up to Derek,
what was it about the characters,specifically Cisco, that you found far more

(17:37):
well, I'm assuming you found farmore involving than the other shows. I've
always read that Deep Space nine maybedidn't have the best characters, but had
the richest characters. It had veryvery human, very very well developed characters.
It did. So, you know, one of the things that was
interesting about Cisco, the character ofCisco was the first African American captain for

(18:02):
Star Trek at the time. Youknow, he came into the show hating
Picard episode one, right, Younever remember that he hated Picard because Picard
was involved unwillingly as a borg andyou know, was responsible in a way
for the death of his wife,and that's how the show started. So
Picard was this legend right in themass media. And here in the first

(18:22):
episode you have a character who hateshim, who can't who can't get over
it, who wants to quit Starflightin the beginning, right, and then
he goes to this rundown, horriblespace station run by that was created by
aliens with a population that just gotaway from their oppressors. Everything's a mess,
right, And so it was richto begin with he's a single father.
Mm hmm. There you go.You have a shady business guy,

(18:45):
this Frankie Quark, right are You'vegot a first officer who was combative,
who was a former terrorist. Right. No, you've got Miles o' brien
from the Enterprise that had that continuity, who was the working man you had
that was that calm feel called Meeni, called Meeni. Yeah. Great,
great, great actor you had.You had a young doctor who was annoying

(19:06):
at first, whose character and whowas acting really got improved so much over
the years. You know. EventuallyWarf came on for a couple of years
I remember, and it was justa very rich ensemble. And then they
involved the Dominion, which was thebig bad in the in the Gama quadrant
that they had, you know,two years three years of storytelling based around
and so they had big empire storytellingwith the with the Klingon Empire, with

(19:30):
the Cardassian falling, Cardassians falling muchmore. Garrick was a great character Cardassian
spy who he never knew what hisdeal was, and it just dealt with
more gray issues, my ambiguity andtheir issues with Cisco about like they were
going to lose the war, andhe had to do something that was really
not morally great, but they wonthe war and it saved those lives and

(19:52):
it was about tackling those challenges oryou know. They went back in time
to California in the quote near futureI think actually twenty twenty fourth this is
the ear and there were all thesehomeless encampments and stuff like that. So
it was just a lot more richstorytelling and the ensemble was great. Yeah.
Yeah, So my last question,you know, to connect from a

(20:14):
few episodes. If I remember correctly, one of the big things about The
Cards season three was that wasn't theresomething from Deep Space nine that changed?
So yeah, so in The Cardseason three, like I freaked out because
basically one and high audience, hereally freaked out. I get this call
from him. He's going off blahblah blah. This is the most amazing

(20:37):
thing. I clearly have cared less. I just appreciated two things. I
appreciate it. I mean, Iappreciate a lot from season three, and
I've been rewatching it and I'm actuallyenjoying it now my fourth rewatch of the
season. I think one is thatthey brought the changings back, so that
was there was the nod to Odoand the Changings were one of the two
big bads the of the of theseason. Right, that was it.

(20:59):
And then they also brought back RoweLaren, who was from Next Generation but
she was the actress was offered therole of the first Officer for Deep Space
nine. She tried it down originally, but there was that connection to the
Dominion, which was, you know, a really good enemy for Deep Space
nine. Right yeah, yeah,So I loved it. So everyone stay
tuned because coming up we have theauthor of the autobiography of Benjamin Cisco,

(21:23):
Derek Tyler Attiko. So stay tunedand we'll be right back. I am
Derek Tyler Attiko. I am anauthor science fiction, science fiction author says,
and amateur trying to go professional photographer. I've been writing since two thousand

(21:48):
and five and I've currently written theYutobiography of Benjamin Cisco. I am a
two time winner of the Star TrekStrange New World Short Story Intology. Amazing.
Well, thanks so much for joiningus. I'm a fan. I've
got your book right here. Trevorprevented me from having it proudly displayed next
to my desk over here. ButI got to read it over this sort

(22:10):
of and that was no offense toyou, Derek. It just seemed so
shameful and obvious that he had aposition the same book. I want to
sell this man's book. Yeah,well then put it and then if we're
gonna, if we're doing this forsales, and put it back. Well,
Derek, you know, it justhappened to me. Yesterday was the
thirty first anniversary. I saw yourpost on Twitter. Ex how what great

(22:33):
timing a thirty first anniversary of theDeep Space nine pilot. So here's my
big question for you before we getinto the book, why Deep Space nine?
For you? Just in general?Like what is what is it about
it? Oh? That's a greatquestion, Like why do I I like
it? Well, I mean Iwas I was there in ninety three.
I was there. I was thereat ninety three when it premiered, and

(22:59):
I still remember the emotions that itbrought out watching those first like three minutes.
First of all, it was nothinglike it was nothing like a Star
Trek show or even a Star Trekfilm. It opened with these it almost
a very so much like a StarWars fashion, with this preamble coming up

(23:21):
on the screen informing us what ithappened, and then it opened right up
into with three five nine. Iwas like, what's happening, and and
we can introduce to these characters.It's with three five nine. In the
first minute we see Benjamin Cisco.He loses his ship, he loses his
crewmates, he loses his family,his wife, and and that's how it
opens, you know, And andI was all in. I was all

(23:45):
in from from that moment on.I was certainly all in later on in
that episode of the premium episode ofEmissary as a as a young man watching
it and as inspiring at the timewriter watching it, I thought it was
just brilliant that the writers of theSpace nine used baseball to explain litear time

(24:07):
too aliens. And I was like, Oh, that's that's that's that's brilliant.
And that always stuck with me andand start threak. In a lot
of ways, It's always been anot just something I've always enjoyed and for
entertainment, but like a teaching toolfor for for me personally, And so
I was all in. There wasnothing you could say I dove in.

(24:27):
I mean some episodes. You know, the first season they were fighting their
footing, but I was all inand the themes, the characters, uh,
the ideas of of of of traumaand religion, and just seeing the
Star Trek universe from a different perspectiveother than the Federation as Starfleet, I

(24:48):
think was just brilliant. I wastelling Trevor right before you popped on the
call here that I remember watching Ithink I was in high school. And
then when I loved I had thesame reaction to the pilot. And here
you have this captain who's pissed offat a hero. You know, I
grew up with Picard and loved him, and here's someone who hates him.
It was like, what the heckdo we like this guy or we agree
with him? And then getting tothe episode Duet and which I just recently

(25:11):
whacked with my daughter, Duet,where you know, there's a I don't
know, I don't even know howto get into the episode, but there's
so many parallels with the Nazis andI mean a million ways to go with
that, but how impactful and seeingthat episode, I mean like, wow,
this show is could really be something, and it just developed it so
well. Over the years, soI certainly share that with you. So

(25:32):
it's great. It's the anniversary ofthat show. And and if you start
flow around Twitter, just the sidehere, there's someone did a title creation
for you. Saw this for likea modern Star Tic Adversary, And I'm
like, oh my god, Iwant the show so bad. I don't
take my money show. Yes,from the title credits, we love to
Trevor and I were talking about StarTrek bookcard title credits being awesome. This

(25:52):
is an opening sequence for a showthat like, whoever made those credits?
I'm like, that's the show Iwant, you know, it'll ever get
made, never get made. Iwant to do a psychological profile on all
you d S nine fans, becauseyou guys are all like, you're all
in the same circle somewhere. Iswear, well, maybe it's where New
Yorkers. You're right, you're fromNew York. I'm from New York.
Are you living right? Right?Right right? It's right. We're cultured,

(26:17):
Trevor, We're culture we understand,right. Tall truck emissary would be
that would be phenomenal because it couldbe you know, actually the name or
the title emissary could be a doubleon tendre for so many other things.
I mean, don't get me started, man, I mean, yeah,

(26:37):
all right, well let's let's comein the book that just came out.
So the auto autobiography? Why anautobiography? Why not the story of is
it? You know their authors aredoing like the autobiography of Kirk and and
and and Picard. Is that rightdown from the publisher or was this well
Titan Books, who is a phenomenalpublisher. They've done the autobio. They

(27:02):
started a series called the Autobiography ofand it's a star Trek series. And
they started with the Autobiography of JamesT. Kirk, which is a phenomenal
book. And then they followed thatup. I believe they followed that one
up with I'm not sure about theorder, but I believe they followed that
one up with the card and thenthey did a stock which I also have,

(27:29):
and and I spoke behind him everyone, I'm very jealous of all.
Yeah. I was just gonna say, behind him, every book that he
refers to, he just turns aroundand grabs it off the right. I'm
just star trek. But there's amillennium falcon hiding there. That's thrown off
the All Star Trek except one MillenniumFalcon. It's it's everybody, everybody,

(27:55):
love everybody. People very hard forme, very hard. Oh see.
So Titan started the autobiography series,and I'm starting with the captains, of
course. And so they did Kirk, they did a spot, they did
the card, they did Jane Way. Uh, yeah, they did they

(28:17):
well, they actually they did uh. They actually skipped Cisco and went to
Janeway. And so a lot ofpeople were like wondering, well, you
know, if you're going in order, it should be you know, Kirk
Spock, uh the card, thenit should be uh, Cisco and then
January. Why did he get skipped? And so some people were like,
well, what's going on? Allof these are great. I'm very fortunate

(28:41):
that when Titan Books wanted to do, they always wanted to do the autobiography
of Benjamancisco. One of the reasonsthat they skipped the Autobiography of Cisco was
the fact that when we last seehim in the series, he is actually
in the wormhole, which is alike a fifty year old or twenty something

(29:04):
year old spoiler, but he's hesaid, no wormhole, And so it
was like well, how are wegoing to do an autobiography of someone that's
stuck like that in time and space? And so basically what happened was someone
on some podcasts was talking about thisand how it was skipped, and it

(29:30):
was on Twitter. My name wasmentioned as a name being floated as someone
that could write the autobiography of Benjaminancisco. Titan got win of that. They
read one of my earlier Star Trekshort stories called The Dream and the Dreams,
that Benny Russell story which was publishedby Pocketbooks in twenty sixteen for the
fiftieth anniversary of Star Truk, andthey liked that, and then from there

(29:56):
they said, oh, you knowwhat, he'd be a good fit for
the autobiography. They spoke to me, we talked. I told them my
ideas for the automography of Jim Assistantand was off to the rasis that's how
that happened? There? That easy, right? Yeah? Yeah, that
easy. Yeah. All your inspiringwriters out there, it's that easy.

(30:17):
The publisher comes right in too.Well. That brings me to my question
they were they all about your ideasright away or did they have their own
ideas that they came in You triedto meld them. They Was it a
constant notes process? Was it whatyou know, let's see the first three
chapters and and see where this isgoing kind of thing, Trevor, that's
an excellent question. Well, theinitial well, first I should say,

(30:41):
uh, George Sanderson is the managingeditor, and he's the individual that I
spoke with initially. We had agreat first conversation of with some books.
And the idea initially was that itwas going to be a book written by
Jake Sisco, which makes you knowone sense, yeah, and in the
show in Space nine, we knowthat Jake actually writes a book that's kind

(31:06):
of audio biographical, caught answering,and so the idea was to write that
and then have elements of not onlyJake's life, but his father's life.
And I thought that's a great idea, and I think that book should be
done. But what I expressed toGeorge is that all of these other great
books that Titan has put out havethe autobiographies of the captains in their own

(31:32):
words. So I was like,well, you know, I have an
idea where we can do it,and we can do it with Cisco's voice
and Cisco's own words, and myframing device is nothing that's really in all
honesty, it's nothing. Really I'mnew, I'm I'm really steeped in the
classics. I'm I'm religious. SoI've been reading the Bible since I was

(31:57):
a kid. And if you ifyou look at mythology, if you look
at religion, you know, thegods or God has always spoken to man
from some place, whether it beHeaven or Olympus or wherever the gods reside.
So the idea of Ben speaking orsending a message to his son,

(32:21):
that's nothing new. It's just newand perhaps nostoricial, you know terms.
So I just came up with theidea of Ben sending a message to Jake
as soon as he gets to theCelestial Temple. Because in the in the
last episode of the show, henever speaks to Jake. He speaks to
Cassid and his wife, he neverspeaks to Jake. And in the in

(32:44):
the autobiography, his intention is tospeak to Jake first. Well, and
this is a little bit of aspoiler for the book, it's fine at
this point because he's just gotten tothe Celestial Temple. In this kind of
like permanency where he's at he's stilla little wonky with time and feeling things

(33:05):
out. So even though it's thefirst thing he does, it does not
get to Jake until a few yearslater. And one of the things,
I'm glad you did this because youknow, one of the things with the
finale of Deep Space Time, whichI loved, I loved it, was
sad. You know, Next NightVoyage all ended on a high note exactly
iin was sad. I mean,I actually want to ask you about this

(33:27):
just the criticism of of some people. I don't agree with it because I
have a different view, but somecriticism of the show the finale was that
he abandoned his newborn child, hisson, his life, which wasn't good
for you know, at the time, there was a lot of like racial
implications about why are we showing thisAfrican American man doing this. Now.
The flip side is he quote dieda hero saving everybody, but because of

(33:52):
his alien background, he's in thetemple. And what I like about what
you did is this kind of closesthat so it's not like he just disappeared
and that's it. I mean,yes, there's been other stories and novels
and things you can read. Butthat element of talking to his son and
closing that and not ending that finale, I think for me it was a
great, great move on your part, right right now, you're you're absolutely
right. And I listened or actuallywatched the interview with IRUs stephen Burgh Showrunner

(34:21):
one, and of course one ofthe writers were Space nine, and he
even he expressed that it was neverthe intention to have a play on the
fact that there's an African American manleaving his son. The writers of these
Space nine, their intention was thatit would be a mythological elevation. Right,

(34:45):
this captain became a god, right, the same thing, Yeah,
we are making a captain of God. Yeah, exactly exactly. That was
that was always the intention, andand so I believe Ira Stephen Barr said
that Avery Brooks spoke to him andsaid, well, you know, it

(35:05):
also will look like this thing.And so that's where they changed the line
where Cisco says, you know,I'll be back. I don't know yesterday
or a year from now, right, you know, but I will be
back. And so with me asa writer and understanding all of that and
taking all of this in said okay, I don't you know, I'm not

(35:30):
actually taking him out of the wormhole, but I can actually give the reader
some insight into what he is thinking. He being banned is thinking as soon
as he gets there, and thefirst thing he's thinking is this message is
for my son. Here I am, I'm going to send this message to
my son actually before I speak toCassidy. But because it's not linear and

(35:55):
because things are a little wonky,it actually happens in the reverse. And
it's great. I appreciate that somuch because I think you know, some
of the other stories that you cango on and read that people have written,
and his exploits after you know,it takes away from what the show
itself intended to do, and Ithink this holds true to that show.
Along those lines, I wanted toask you, well two parts here,

(36:15):
like how did you get yourself intoinside Cisco's head to write the story?
And why was it important for youto tell Cisco's story? Oh wow,
that's that's a uh don that's agreat question. Eric, professional here,
I'm a professional sci fi a lowbudget discussed Yeah, stop stop playing his

(36:37):
ego. It is not good foryour career and it's not good for anything.
Well, I'm gonna get into bothof you guys, so get ready,
Yes, he said, yes,yes, my favorite guest, my
favorite. So I forgot to question, how did you get into Cisco's head?

(36:58):
And why Cisco's head? It's importantfirst to you to tell Cisco's story
and why is it important? Well? Getting into Cisco's head wasn't that difficult?
In twenty sixteen, Like I said, I wrote this story the Dream
and the Dream. Uh. Itwas a challenge back then because it's it's
Benjamin Cisco. The one thing Ilearned from writing that short story in twenty

(37:20):
sixteen is that Miss d Avery Brookshe's a phenomenal actor and performer, and
what he has done with the characterof ben Cisco he does not bring to
any other performance. So it's notlike I could watch any of his earlier
performances and use like mannerisms or oranything like that for a younger fan Cisco.

(37:44):
It just I just couldn't do it. The only thing I really was
able to use from Deep Space ninewas the episode that we All I think
We All Love is in the PaleMoonlight, which is basically a forty forty
plus minutes of Benjamin Cisco just speakingpretty much to the camera, and and

(38:06):
that episode really allowed me to gethis cadence and his the way he speaks
down and then to just basically deconstructthat because Benjamin Cisco, he always says
throughout the seven years of the show, he says, I'm not a writer,
you know, my son is thewriter, you know, And ben
is very blue collar, playing spoken, but he has these moments of eloquence

(38:30):
as opposed to writing someone like Picard, who is false being and right informal
and Shakespeare and supposedly you know,you know, and it has this this
whole other side to him that justCisco just doesn't have. So I can
be more eloquent with Picard than Ican be with Cisco. So I would

(38:51):
drop moments in with Cisco, whichis what we are used to in the
show. This is very plain spoken. But then he'll say things, you
know, he'll have those moments likeyou know, fortune favors the bold,
or he'll say things and we're like, oh wow, So that was was
doing that. And then so comingback to him for the autobiography wasn't wasn't

(39:13):
that difficult? What was difficult,I think was writing him as a child
so that I could deconstruct and thenstart to drop elements of that. Yeah,
it was. That was my nextquestion, like how did you choose
his voice as a kid? Andyou spend a fair bit of the book
with him as a child, andpart of it is how do you find
his voice? Is anything drawn fromyou or your experience or people you know,

(39:35):
but also the choice like he's practicallyfuture amish in a way where he
does write, he doesn't know areplicators and transporters and communicators. He's complete
and that is not I mean thatthat was such an interesting choice because I
don't think that ever came up inthe show other than his love of cooking
and his father's his father's opinions.But you really went all in on that,
so you know, curious about thedecision as well as like how you

(39:57):
found the voice of him as achild. No, absolutely, yeah,
definding his voice Some of it ishonestly from my experiences and from me.
But as a writer, I thinkone of the skills all writers should have
and hopefully do have, is theability to know what you can use from

(40:20):
your own personal life and what youshould refrain from using from your own personal
life. And for his for hisvoice. I knew that there were certain
qualities that I wanted to imbue inhim, and I just wanted to show
a steady progression because I want thisbook to be a lot about life,
and family is the people that we'velearned from and lean on. So I

(40:44):
have these moments in the book whereBen is learning things from his grandparents,
you know, from his father,from his from his mother, you know
from his step mother, and soslowly but surely we are building the foundation
of the fully formed, balanced individualthat we know as Capitaal Benjamin Lafaiant Cisco.

(41:05):
So I had to get there,for I had to show everyone to
get there, which is why Ispent so long in his childhood and in
that part to get to get there, to answer just two other questions of
the questions I remember, but toget to to explain why I took the
whole route of almost like a futurearmist. A lot of that came from
Joseph Cisco. Joseph in the show, you know he doesn't like replicators and

(41:31):
he doesn't travel. Yeah, hedoesn't travel, And so I had to
really deconstruct that. And as Istarted to work in the outline, I
realized this was not just the autobiographyfor Ben, but it started to become
an autobiography for his family, forhis father, for New Orleans, for
Louisiana, for Earth. It becamea story of telling them that I was

(41:52):
away from the tell a lot ofdifferent stories, and so that I was
just gonna say, like, incrudersto you, because I think a lot
of writers wouldn't have done that workor that process. And that's one of
the things that I was surprising aboutthe book is that you did delve into
New Orleans and his family and allthat. Because you know, most people
say, oh, he's you know, his father is cranky, like bones,

(42:13):
doesn't want to be on a transport, doesn't travel, end of story.
It's just a quirk. But youyou developed, you added so much
to you know, I hate tosay starter cannon because Trevor hates the word
canon. Oh my god, anotherelement to that world that we don't shows
or movies, you know, versuslike you know, well, y'all man,
go dig or go home? Man, you know, I mean,

(42:36):
you know, don't don't I mean, if if I'm going to get a
Star Trek book and have that honoran opportunity. I'm going to swing for
the fences, right, I mean, I just go right right, yeah,
right, and try and do justice. I mean. And also it's
not I mean not that a StarTrek book is by any means something that's

(43:00):
small. But this is on topof that, this is the thirtieth anniversary
of Deep Space nine. So youknow there are certain expectations, right,
so you know I'm going to meetthem and hopefully exceed them. So I
looked to Joseph, and Joseph openedin incredible doors for me because then I
realized through Joseph, I could explaina lot of things about Louisiana, about

(43:24):
Earth. I could I could talkabout the African American experience. I could
talk about the Black experience in thetwenty second, twenty third, and twenty
fourth centuries. And because Joseph hasa lot of things going on in the
Cisco family until up to Joseph hasa certain amount of trauma that's going on

(43:46):
in the family, but not wantingto leave everything. Why they don't want
to leave earthing And and I thinkBen and his father have a really interesting
conversation. You know, he says, I where Joseph doesn't want him to
leave everything, Benny, like,I have to go for the same reasons
you don't want me to go,or the reasons I have to leave,
you know. So, So Josephopened a lot of doors for me.

(44:08):
Uh, And I'm very thankful tothe writers of these Spaceline but the characters
that they started and they laid out, because without that, it just gave
me so much material to just diveand delve into. To go back to
one of your first parts of thisquestion, what is the mean to me?

(44:30):
Yeah, it means everything. Itmeans everything I mean as a writer,
it's a it's a it's a hellof an opportunity. Let's just let
me come on. This is youknow, it's a hell of an opportunity.
This is also my first novel,So that is That's right. That's
amazing as a as a black manto be able to write. Uh.

(44:51):
The Autobiography of Benjamin Cisco is justgreat. It's a lot of fun.
It's dope, but it's it's itwas also, to be really honest with
you guys, it's also challenging becauseI also wanted to write something that would
stand up to scrutiny within the blackcommunity. Be quite honest, because Benjamin

(45:13):
System is someone that we all loved. It's also someone that is very much
loved in the black community. Soit had it has this character that this
autobiography has to meet a lot ofdifferent has to meet scrutiny on a lot
of different levels, and that pressureis there the whole time you're writing it
Is that or is that just lurkingin the background, or is that really
at the forefront of everything you're writingwhen you go AU be honest with you,

(45:37):
it was. It was really thereat the very beginning, and I
was like, and I had aconversation with myself. I was like,
you know what, man, yougot to put all that out of your
head because if you if you startthinking about that with every word, with
every day, it'll just it'll justdrown you. But I was like,
you know what, this is justanother project and these are characters, you

(45:58):
know, these characters you with andyou should get this project done. And
so I just turned that part offand I watched In the Pale Moonlight about
four or five times back to back, and then I never watched another episode
the Spaceline and then I got theautobiography. O kidding, no kidding.
So I have a question. Iyou know, this will actually be a

(46:21):
good question compared to the little what'sbeing lobbed at you by Don stop persecuting.
So we talked about Don. Donasked a question. It was a
good question about getting into the voiceof Cisco. What I'm curious about is,
as an author, you have yourown pros. Now you're writing an

(46:42):
autobiography from a fictional character's point ofview, who must have their own pros
to writing their own autobiography? Wasthat something you were conscious of? Was
that something that you were that youhad to map out, not just not
us, How would this person say, you know, dialogue, but how

(47:04):
would this person write their own book? You got it? That's exactly right.
I mean, I mean I'm reallygood. I'm really good at this,
Derek, you know, compared toI'm really good. No comment there.
I think you're both a great butyou're You're absolutely right to give you

(47:29):
a little to me about just mepersonally. And I come from a film
background. I like you already see. So the first thing I ever wrote
at sixteen was was was a screenplay. It was actually a Star Wars screen
play, and I was I wasthankful and lucky enough to hit one in
an award from the Drama and Guildof America. That's great. Thank So.

(47:50):
I've always been very theme a filmtheme and the film thinking. And
I remember, like high school andcollege, I took some acting classes and
I learned about stand of philosophy andmethod acting, and so even then I
was like, you know, Ididn't want to be an actor. I
was like, oh, this couldbe great to incorporate into writing. You

(48:13):
know, method method writing. Idon't know if anyone's ever that term,
but method method writing. And youknow, and and I realized that,
you know, just as an actorputs on different skins to become different people,

(48:36):
in many ways, writers have todo the same thing, even if
they don't consciously realize. I thinkmost writers do consciously realize it. You
know, we have to do thatwhen we're when we're writing with different voices
and different point of views of differentcharacters. And this is definitely the case
with the autobiography. And also youknow, they have it in first person

(48:57):
and in the first person from thistype of character there. It was a
challenge. I'm not gonna say itwasn't. It was a challenge but once
I got my head around it,I was good. It took a minute
to get my head around it,and it took a minute to get my
head around the child version of Ciscoright once that that happened. Were there
any moments when you know, yougot far into a part or into a

(49:22):
section and you said, and youmaybe maybe second guess or maybe just flat
out said to yourself, Cisco wouldnot have written it this way. Oh
you felt you had to go backor do you feel that you were in
the pocket the whole time with interms of both his voice and his like
his written pros. Honestly, yeah, No, there was never a moment

(49:44):
when I said, well, Isaid, no, he wouldn't have written
it this way. I didn't,right, If anything, I was,
I was maybe a little bit slowerand more intentional to make sure I had
it the right way. There wasmaybe one or two times, if really
honest, I would like write aparagraph for two late at night and I'd
be like, ah, this isnot no, this is just not working.

(50:07):
I think. I think, ifI remember correctly, it was when
Benn is talking about the card andhow he felt about Wolf three five nine,
And I remember it was like lateone night, it was like two
three in the morning, and Iwas I was writing and I wanted to
get that. I wanted to getthat done, and it just it just

(50:28):
wasn't just didn't resonate with me.You know what I'm saying, just doesn't.
This doesn't feel right. And forme, it has to be organic.
It has to feel right, becausemy attitude is if it feels right
to me, it feels were gettingto me, then I'm presuming it's gonna
feel that way to the reader,right. And so I just I remember

(50:49):
I wrote like maybe a page ora half the page. I was like,
eh, and I just got ridof it and I was gonna go
to bed, and then I waslike, uh, I think, but
I did I I think I didwatch I did watch on YouTube that that
UH at Tech with the card andCisco and he's just seaving. You know,

(51:15):
Cisco is sieving in that, inthat in that moment when he first
meets uh the card after with threefive nine, you know, And then
I realized that, you know,when you hate someone, the first thing
you have to do is you haveto you have to let go the first
person you say, can you letgo of hate this yourself. And once
I watched that and realized that,I was like, oh, I got

(51:36):
it there, you know. Andthen I wrote that in like twenty minutes
and went the big you know,and I woke up the next morning and
I read it and I was like, oh, yeah, this is good.
And I don't think I ever wentback to it after that, you
know that, you know, it'san interesting opportunity. And I don't know
if it's an opportunity, a privilege, or a disservice to you or any
writer in your position. There's ahundred is one hundred hours of television in

(51:59):
this Arctor's voice, and so that'sa lot like in a way to me,
it seems like, oh, it'sgreat, you know. But then
it's like, oh, a lot'sbeen said, right, a lot's been
done, you know. So it'sit's an interesting thing, you know.
I do want to ask you acouple of specific things from the book I
want to get you too. Thefirst is just, you know, why
deep Space nine again it was Trevorin his ignorance. I was trying to

(52:20):
explain why it was so meaningful.But on page thirteen of your book,
I'm going to read a little thingyou wrote here. I don't like writing
in books. I find it disrespectful. But when I read it, I
circled, my god, this isthe whole thing. So it says the
truth is that everyone wants a pieceof Benjamin Cisco the Butajoran people want to
preserve the sanctity and deeds of theEmissary. The cult of the Paw Race
wanted to file everything the Emissary stoodfor. Starfleet wants their captain back.

(52:45):
Me. This is being Jake.I just want to see my father.
And the truth is no one willget what they want. And for me,
again that hit home for me,that was like that's I'm like,
oh my god, this guy hegets DS nine, this is it.
This is why it's not next gen, why it's so it was so different
at the time. There's no perfectendings, and I know that just stood
out to me like as like atthe moment, but yeah, you know,

(53:07):
I'm just curious about that one alittle bit and like where that came
from and you know, from youand you know so you not, I
guess started reading it, so Iwas curious if that was a little special
moment too for you as a writer, as the writer, thank you,
thank you. No, that wasthat that. I love that whole speech.
But most of that speech was inwas actually in the outline, because

(53:28):
you have to you have to presentan outline to of course, to get
an editor and too CBS before youget you know, act, you know,
the okay to write world one.And so that was in me because
I would write like little as Ias I felt it. I would just
like as I was writing the outline, pieces of dialogue which just come to
me, you know. So Iwould just write little moments of dialogue and

(53:50):
drop it into the into the outline. And that was one of them.
And and that came from uh,I guess being a fan, of course
of these Space nine and understanding wherewe are today and how we all feel
about these Space nine. I thinkwe all want a piece of Benjamin Cisco

(54:12):
today, you know, and they'rebad. We're we're we're we're gonna get
what we get, you know,We're gonna get what we get. A
lot of people want an attire show. And we were just talking about,
you know, it would be greatto have a show call start trag Emissary
and but you know, and Iand I felt a lot about what Jake
must be feeling with his father goneand with this man that that was responsible

(54:36):
for winning uh the war for theFederation and literally saving the entire Alpha quadrant.
And now he's he's just he's justgone, He's gone, you know,
and the conjecture and the gossip andand and the rumors and what that
must that with that vacuum nature ofcourse, the vaalcuum, So that vacuum
that Cisco, uh, what thatmuch do even in a in a in

(55:02):
an upstanding civilization like the Federation,you know. And so Jake when he's
writing that, he's he's a littlefrustrated, he's a little fed up,
you know, as he as heuh as he says, you know,
the Cisco sightings, you know,the popa razzi won't won't give myself and
my stepmother and my new sister arrest. You know, so you know what,

(55:25):
none of us is going to getwhat we want. But maybe that's
okay. Interesting too, is theparallel here, Derek, like with like
us super fans, so Trevor thisyou can go to sleep here a super
fans and having to deal with dS nine is like the bastard child for
all those years having reboots and reshowsand new things coming that you know,
they're not gonna do pluts with theCisco thing. Like, what are your

(55:50):
thoughts on? Like Avery Brook's notreally engaging with the fandom like us as
like the super fans and everyone whogoes to conventions and just whatever watching stuff
you know all the time. Weyou know, all those actors are like
royalty, but he chooses not toengage with the fandom at all. Well,
first of all, why would AveryBook Brooks want to talk to you?
Don I mean really like why?Like why? I mean maybe that's
a question you should ask yourself.Done, why why let's leave Why let's

(56:16):
lead me personally out of it fornow, Trevor, And this is the
Segment's not your choice. No,but that parallel Cisco being gone and every
morning piece of him and then usas fans and Avery Brooks and I'm not
engaging. It's a crazy parallel.Yeah, no, it definitely is.
I know mister Books has done someconventions. We were doing it with the

(56:37):
other captains for a while, butnowhere near the extract any other but nowhere,
nowhere near the extent, you know, And you can't I can't speak
some of what you know is histhoughts and feelings about Star Trek. I
feel sad to me, Derek,it feels sad to me a little bit.
Yeah, yeah, No, itseems like the man is an artists.

(57:00):
I will say this about him.The man is an artist. And
so this is not this is notthe totality of his work. He's done
so much work. He's not thetotality of his work. This is something
that he has presented to us andleft us uh to digest and and speak
about it and write about as wedo. But he he's done so much

(57:21):
other things. So I can't Ican't begin this to speak or think for
him. But I knows me personally. I don't always like to go back.
Once I've done something, I moveon from it a lot of times.
You know, I know a lotof actors they don't watch uh,
stuff that they've done, right,I mean, you know, I mean

(57:44):
we we may think differently about telligiontelevision as opposed to film, but a
lot of film actors they will watcha movie. I mean they will.
They will be in the movie,and then after doing the movie, they
will just not watch it or talkabout it. They'll do press junkets,

(58:05):
but that's about it, you know, So who knows. I have seen
though, in the past maybe decade, certain actors who didn't really want to
contribute to the legacy of this ofa character that was okay, I'm gonna

(58:28):
specifically say it, Harrison Ford fora long time, right right. But
then I've seen this happen that theyreach a certain age and maybe realize that
it's not about career anymore. It'sabout there's this character I did that make

(58:49):
people very happy, and why notwhy not give that to them one more
time? And I kind of wonderif mister Brooks would circle back to that
place, as I've seen a lotof performers they've they've done that in the

(59:10):
past decade. I mean, forHarrison Ford to do a Blade Runner,
a second Blade Runner movie was absolutelyunheard of because he said nothing but horrible
things about the first film for thirtyyears. Great. The difference is,
even if every Brooks wanted to doit, paramout's not going to fork over.
See. I don't think so.I don't think that's the case.

(59:31):
I think they would. I thinkthey would absolutely. Trevor, we're here
to talk about Derek. So Ijust you know, the beautiful thing is
though, But the beautiful thing isyou could I mean, if a lot
of its right, right, misterBrooks want to come back, you could

(59:52):
have him come back for one ortwo scenes. Yeah, he's gonna have
to have you know, you canhave him come back for one or two
scenes. Doesn't have to be aseries, doesn't have to be a series.
Haven't come back for one of twoscenes? Passed the baton, say,
for example, to Jake who waswho was also part profit, right,
Let's not forget that profit. Jakeis if Ben is, if Ben

(01:00:17):
is half profit, then Jake isquarter profit right, right. So that's
all there, that's all that's that'sa that's cannon. That's not hypothesizing.
This is this is no I'm notgetting no no, no, no,
no no no. I was justthinking a great segue. No no,

(01:00:38):
because both a character I want tosee more of I would have wanted to
see more of. But also youmentioned Jake here is that I found its
awesome but interesting that you chose notto conclude the book with Ben Cisco in
a cutobiography or Jake Cisco, butyou went back to Benny Rustle. So,
you know, Far Beyond the Stars, I think one of the best

(01:00:59):
episodes of Star Trek written Cisco goesback becomes Benny Russell, a writer who
can't who is just a tough timein America as a black man and a
writer. Great episode. Why goback to Benny here? Is it just
to continue that mythology of what's thedream? What's you know? Well,
you tell me what was? Wherewas the rationale here? And what does

(01:01:21):
Benny mean to you? Too?Oh my god, you guys are asking,
you know, such a great questions. Uh, I thought it was.
I remember that I was writing theoutline, and initially in the outline,
you know, yeah, the ideais you started with, uh,
the note about if it starts withJake answer Jake, And I was like,

(01:01:45):
well, you know, that's that'swhat everyone is expecting. I never
liked doing what everyone is expecting,you know, And it just there wasn't
really an opportunity or way to discussor talk about all Far Beyond the Stars
or Benny Russell within the autobiography becauseit doesn't make it didn't make sense,

(01:02:07):
and I'm not gonna try and shoehornsomething in just for fan service, you
know, because it doesn't make sense. But that last page that makes sense.
You know, that then becomes anorganic almost way of like, oh
wow, it becomes very meta nowand you're like, well, okay,
so who's writing this? And andand and and and what that also does

(01:02:28):
is that continues and and almost bookendsthe Benny Russell story. Now it answers
that question. And so then nowI have something really organic because now I'm
I'm closing. I'm I'm not closing, but I'm I'm continuing continuing threats that
has been opened in each space nine. You know, now we know what
happened with Benny finally did to thisstuff published. You know, his autobiography

(01:02:53):
is a part of that. Thisis also Jake story, This is also
band story, you know, soall of that folds into it. And
I couldn't. I had to takethat opportunity and and do that and and
and what Benny says to the readeris something that I think is very important,
something I wanted to leave the readerwith. In the last page,

(01:03:15):
I got to ask you this,Derek, what would your yeah and have
to cut this out? What wouldyou reaction if they ended the show at
Benny oh, I know that wasthat was that was I received him Bear
said that he actually wanted to do. That would have been it would have
been as controversial as the Sopranos ending, I think, But I think I

(01:03:36):
would have loved it. I mean, I don't think I wouldn't have had
a problem with it. I thinkit would have been been nuts. It
would have been mind blowing. Idon't think it would have been to no
studio would have left. It wouldhave been too good. Yeah, I
think I think it's you know,you know, here's the thing, dude,
I think I would have probably ascool and as I have an ideas

(01:04:00):
that is, I probably would havesaid no as well, because only because
you don't want Star Trek Deep Spacenine to be the last installment of Star
Trek. But it was the verylast installment and you knew it was never
gonna been at the Star Trek,then okay, then that would make sense,
you know, and and you're tappingit right, but you want this

(01:04:23):
to continue. So then by havingBenny do that, and you're saying this
guy is writing it, which iscool, But by not doing that,
then you still leave that door openand you need this incredible history and mythos
open to the future, keep going, so then you keep going, yeah
yeah, yeah yeah, even thoughit ended so sadly. Has been the

(01:04:45):
reaction to the book has the fandombeen? I know you've been engaging at
least online with them, and what'syou know, it's it's only been out
a little bit of time now,right, how's it been going. It's
only been out a little a littleunder about a month and a half now,
it'll be two months on the twentyfirst, and it's been nuts,
I'll say, and nuts in apositive different way. I did not expect

(01:05:09):
a lot of the things that peoplepeople are emailing me. One guy emailed
me and said he was reading thebook and inspire him to write a song,
so he re wrote the song Yeahyeah. One one lady on Facebook
she said that she she basically intimatedthat her father had passed away, and

(01:05:30):
she said, and then she readthe book in four hours and it felt
and it felt like her father wasright there with her reading it. And
I was like, what you know, that's that's all the That's all I
need. I don't need anything else. A few days ago, someone message
me because i'm i'm I'm, I'mavailable on Facebook and you know Twitter and

(01:05:51):
stuff than you by the way,that's how we connected. Yeah. Yeah,
I like talking to people, soI mean, it's like why not.
And somebody messaged me a few daysago and said that that they had
a they were having a problem withgrief with their father passing, and the

(01:06:12):
book helped them have a breakthrough.Mm hmm. And I was like,
you know, things that you neverexpect. I know, I know,
I never expected to hear, andI am eternally and sincerely I'm humbled to
hear these things. When when Iwas writing on this book, it was

(01:06:33):
challenging in the sense that I waspulling from emotions that were deep within me
and were heartfelt and were sincere.And they were sincere for me. I
did not even really consider at thetime that they would resonate so much with
other people. I'm just thankful andhonored that they did, you know.

(01:06:56):
Yeah, I mean, you know, that's a great segue to serve or
less bit here before we let yougo. You know, we talk a
lot with all our guests about sortof the mental health challenges in their professions,
and it's great to hear how thebook has helped people who are suffering
with trauma and things like that,you know, but writing writes a very
solitary process. Just curious about sortof your experience with, you know,

(01:07:17):
keeping yourself, you know. Trevorhelp me out here with the terminology.
Well, I think there's to followup with what Don says, and then
I've got my own question. There'sU and I've seen it in all sorts
of industries. There is a wayof just losing yourself in it and forgetting

(01:07:38):
which way is up and empathizing withsomething so much that it and eventually sympathizing
that it takes control of you.How do you prevent from going over that
cliff? That's a great question.I for this book, more than anything

(01:08:01):
else I've ever written. I've usedsince memory before, but for this book,
I really dug and used sense memoryfor for particular scenes. And if
I'm be really honest, there werescenes that after I wrote them, I
just cry because it would it wouldit pulled from emotions that I haven't emotions

(01:08:28):
and memories that I that I haven'treally tapped into in years, you know,
especially like child some childhood things thatin years, like my grandparents,
I'm passing and I wanted to rememberwhat that felt like, because I think,
how can I write it if Icouldn't feel it, you know,
And and so but at the sametime, with sense memory, and with

(01:08:55):
acting and with and with and withusing that form, you're absolutely right you
can get launched in it. Andhow do you how do you like come
down from that? You know,if you have downtime, you know,
so I would say that, youknow, I had discussions with people that

(01:09:15):
were a lot smarter than me andwould say, hey, you know,
if you're going to use that forthis, and if you're going to go
there, then I remember I hada conversation and was like, well,
what do you do after a scenelike that? I said, well,
I had a cry and I moveon to the next scene. I think,
no, Derek, you can't dothat. You have to you know,
take some time. Oh man,just move on to the next scene.

(01:09:39):
Man, you're not You're not amachine. And I was like,
oh, yeah, that sounds kindof right. You know, that makes
that right some sense. So well, I'm half joking, but the say,
and honest is, you know,after pulling something like that so emotional,
you kind of have to have timeto replenish and restore, you know,

(01:10:01):
And and I learned that, andif I, if I'm if I
ever go to places like that againfor something like this, then that's definitely
what I what I what I haveto do. I think in any art,
if you're going to go to placeslike that, you have to take
care of yourself. You just can't. You may want to go to those
places. And and that's the oldadage of dying for your art, but

(01:10:25):
you don't have to die for yourart. You don't have to suffer to
that extent for your art, especiallyor specifically, not mentally. You know,
you have to take care of yourself. The artists have to take care
of themselves because you want to create, continue creating. You know. I've
never been one to use anything totap into my art, like I don't.

(01:10:48):
I don't. I don't drink,I don't, I don't. I
don't use anything. I mean,I drink socially, but I don't use
anything specifically tap into my art.I just use my own memory and motion
and and all that. But insaying that, there's a time to do
that, and they really do haveto know when to back away, you

(01:11:09):
know, go for a walk.Watch I tell you. I watched a
lot of comedy after certain scenes.That was my thing. I would watch
comedy shows, I would write it. I would write a heavy scene,
and then I'd watch like, youknow, Trevor Nola or some kind of
comedy show on Netflix and and maybetake like the rest of the day or

(01:11:29):
half of the day off, youknow. And it was it was like
it was like cleansing my my myartistic palate. And I felt so much
better after that. So that's whatthat answers your good question. I just
want to say, real quick,you just not a question, which is
real quick something that's stuck with mesince you said you said something very uh

(01:11:50):
mature and advanced. I feel abit of go about Cisco's hate, and
I'm really impressed with what you saidspecifically, I see you know a lot
of patients and I'm going to includemyself in that who who still carry a

(01:12:10):
lot of hate because the trauma thatthey have is so they just can't.
Probably they're going through the motions ofprocessing it, but they one of the
last things will be letting go ofthat hate. And uh, well,
I just I'm not going to repeatit, because you know, I want
our listeners to go back and relisten. But uh, you and listen

(01:12:33):
to the ads. Yeah, andlisten to the ads. I commend you.
I think that's a very h matureway to process it. And so,
Derek, what's next? What areyou working on? Oh, I'm
working on stuff I can't talk about, of course, and that's that's not

(01:12:55):
true. You can talk about everythinghere. It's tightened paramount. They're totally
cool with it about I'm also taking, uh do something different in January,
and I'm outlining different projects that I'vealways wanted to do with my own And

(01:13:20):
so I learned a lot from outliningthis novel January to just outline a lot
of different things, and I figureI have a lot about four or five
different pieces of work between short stories, novels, and comics outlined, and
by the end of January, thenI can just decide what I want to

(01:13:40):
do. I went to his ownoutline, that's my own work. So
that's what I'm doing right now,and I'm just you know, one thing
I've learned about about the Cisco bookis that it was done a long time
ago, but it's not it's notlike really ever done, because you're still
I still I'm still talking about it. I still, of course I love
it. I'm pushing it people thatwant to talk about and I'm happy to

(01:14:00):
talk about it. So it's never, it's never. It will always be
with me. You know it's notlinear, you know it's around. So
I'm happy to talk about it.Well, since we Yeah, Derek,
I want to speak for you here, since I think you and I will
induct Trevor into deep space. I'msuper fandom after this call any last question
here for Derek before we let himthis is send to the Special Temple.

(01:14:25):
But that's for me to send.Say go ahead. Truth. This is
a very engaging interview Derek and uhI of the year, I should say,
yeah, I truly wish you thevery very best, and not just
your career but in life. Ia very positive person, very somebody who's

(01:14:45):
genuinely excited about their work and doingthe work. I commend you, sir.
This was a great, great interviewand you sound like a great person.
Thank you, Thank you both.I will say I loved this conversation.
I loved the angle that we're discussingthis book and we're framing it in

(01:15:10):
I think it's really important to talkabout these things, and I'm really happy
to do that with you guys,because no one else has really has really
done that. So I think thisis really some important stuff and it's fun
to talk about not just the peopoo pew and at the star Trek of
Star Trek, but the emotions andthe choices and ideas of characterism behind all

(01:15:32):
that. So I appreciate that,and thank you down for Thank you so
so much. Thank you so much, your friends. All Right, Derek,
thanks for joining us, Thank youall right, we're back. Trevor.
Awesome talking to Derek. What doyou think it was? You know,
this was an interview that I wasreally worried about, and I,

(01:15:53):
you know, I kind of stoodback a bit, and because I know
this was this was something that Dawnwas very very excited about. I get
a I get a holding back alot of people. I can see his
face. I get no, no, no, no no. I got
a photo from him while he wason vacation. He's on a beach and

(01:16:14):
he has Derek's book in his hand, his wife and children crying in the
background because he's been neglecting them theentire time, so he could read Derek's
book and and you know, Ilisten, I'm not a DS nine person.
I don't I'm not insulting DS nine. I started with it, and

(01:16:36):
you know, as I do oftenwith things, I stop and uh and
move on. But this was reallyfascinating and it's just I will agree that
this is a very exciting direction forStar Trek fiction in the written form.

(01:16:56):
Yeah. And I will say justone other thing to what we talked earlier
is that one of one of thereasons I have, you know, a
liking of Deep Space nine, otherthan when I was younger and watching it,
is that, you know, asyou know, Trevor, I worked
on a film series with one ofthe finest actors I've ever worked with are
the Finance, I should say,Johnny Lee Davenport, like Johnny Lee Davenport,
who, like actor may film actor, absolutely deeply, deeply miss and

(01:17:20):
really enjoyed working with him. AndI saw a remastered version of The Fugitive
a few months ago on the bigscreen, and he's in The Fugitive.
He's one of the members of TommyLee Jones's team, and he looks so
young, and you know, I'mlike the one person at the fugitive who's
almost shedding a tear because I onlyworked with him a little bit, and

(01:17:43):
you know that was thanks to Downand what a wonderful, wonderful performer and
wonderful person and he he got heI'll talk about more about him another time,
but you know, the connection hereis that when we were working on
our film series with him, youknow, we had this idea for cameo
and you know, I mentioned AveryBrooks would be awesome in this role as

(01:18:04):
crazy jazz pianists could come in atthe end, it would be awesome.
He's like, oh, well,I know him for try to get him
a new yeah, and he tried. This is you know right, I
think right before you know, nottwo before you know, he passed away,
and I think, you know,right around COVID time. So I
just in my head, you know, I linked the two a little bit

(01:18:25):
because they're such great actors and sogreat great actors. So you know,
you know, there's a little piecethat I always think about Johnny Lee now
when I when I see when Iwe watch Deep Space nine, just that
connection between them to two solid actorswith good voices and great presence. They
both had a really amazing presence orthey have. Yeah, in the last
few years of his life, Johnnywould show up in a lot of locally

(01:18:48):
made films. I remember he showedup en Joy. He was Jennifer Lawrence
and Roberts de Niro and he youknow, he's de Niro's lawyer, I
believe, or or somebody's lawyer.And Edie's always there for a few minutes.
And I mean, this was whatJohnny Lee, Johnny Lee could do.

(01:19:09):
He he made his presence known withouttaking it away from the other.
He left an impression. You know, whether he was on there for thirty
seconds or a minute or five minutes, he always left an impression. Well,
you know what, why don't Iplay a short scene from a sndence.
It's a short film anthology series Idid almost a decade ago. I
wrote and directed this series, andJohnny Lee Davenport was such a big and

(01:19:31):
epic part of the series and theinspiration for the book which is hopefully kind
of come out next year. SoI whytn't you take a listen to Johnny
Lee Davenport. Do you know whatI miss the most? That moment,
that moment when the stage goes darkand the spotlight shines on me when everything

(01:20:00):
that was fades to black, andeverything that will be a sense when all
that was reverberates back, and everythingthat will be courses like an electrical charge
through the air, connecting performer tothe audience and to both an undiscovered future.

(01:20:32):
That beautiful, silent and tortuous moment, and after that final moment,
when silence turned to applause, Ifelt alive. I felt close to God.

(01:21:08):
Thanks everyone for listening. Any lastwords, Trevor gosh we we we.
I don't think I can send anyinsults. I can't say anything here
because we ended on Johnny Pee,and I'm like kind of a little well
sad. The good news is there'smore, no wincidentra to come, Stay
tuned, subscribe, listen on allthe platforms, and thanks for listening,

(01:21:30):
Thanks for listening, and we missyou Johnny Weeb. In today's world,
mental health is everyone's concern. Ifyou are someone you know is in crisis,
please use these resources. For USlisteners, call one eight hundred nine
five zero six two sixty four ortext helpline all one word h E L

(01:21:57):
P L I N E to sixtwo six four zero, or email helpline
at NAMY dot org. That's nA m I dot org. For our
international listeners, please visit suicide stopdot com. That's s U I c
I d E, S t op dot com.