August 25, 2025 • 36 mins
Star Trek The Next Generation had it's Shades of Gray episode - so this is ours. We go back into the vault and reflect on highlights from our first two seasons.
No Win Scenario is your portal into the universe of science fiction entertainment. Join Don and Trevor as they debate varied viewpoints and dissect beloved narratives. Engaging with industry insiders, they delve into the everyday realities of production and highlight the growing importance of mental health awareness in the film and television industry.
Podcast: No Win Scenario
Episode Number: 304
Release Date: August 25, 2025
Duration: 00:36:47
Hosts: Don Schechter and Trevor Chamberlain
Guests: Dave Blass, Liz Kloczkowski, Davif Alan Mack, Jenny R. Johnson, Todd E. Slayton, and Robin Morselli
Website: https://www.nowinscenariopodcast.com
Email: NoWinScenarioPodcast@gmail.com
Follow No Win Scenario on X (Formerly Twitter): @nowinscenario
Follow No Win Scenario on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61551025621867
TikTok: @NoWinScenarioPodcast
Subscribe on your favorite platform
Mental Health Crisis Resources
In the US: 1-800-950-NAMI (6264)
Or text HELPLINE to 62640
Or email helpline@nami.org
International: visit suicidestop.com
©2025 Charles River Media, Inc.
All Artwork AI created and not meant to represent any real or fictional people.
No Win Scenario is your portal into the universe of science fiction entertainment. Join Don and Trevor as they debate varied viewpoints and dissect beloved narratives. Engaging with industry insiders, they delve into the everyday realities of production and highlight the growing importance of mental health awareness in the film and television industry.
Podcast: No Win Scenario
Episode Number: 304
Release Date: August 25, 2025
Duration: 00:36:47
Hosts: Don Schechter and Trevor Chamberlain
Guests: Dave Blass, Liz Kloczkowski, Davif Alan Mack, Jenny R. Johnson, Todd E. Slayton, and Robin Morselli
Website: https://www.nowinscenariopodcast.com
Email: NoWinScenarioPodcast@gmail.com
Follow No Win Scenario on X (Formerly Twitter): @nowinscenario
Follow No Win Scenario on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61551025621867
TikTok: @NoWinScenarioPodcast
Subscribe on your favorite platform
Mental Health Crisis Resources
In the US: 1-800-950-NAMI (6264)
Or text HELPLINE to 62640
Or email helpline@nami.org
International: visit suicidestop.com
©2025 Charles River Media, Inc.
All Artwork AI created and not meant to represent any real or fictional people.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I haven't listened to anything you've said in the last
twenty seconds.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Damn it, Trevor.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
We had a shit lying.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
Two friends who hate each other, rude talking science fiction.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
It has become this cultural phenomenon, along with some special guests.
Speaker 4 (00:15):
I appreciate what Star Trek did to me.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
I would love to have this book get banned.
Speaker 5 (00:19):
And that wasn't acting, That wasn't real.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Do you know what a YouTube channel is?
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Absolutely not No Win Scenario with Trevor and Dawn.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Okay, we're not doing that. Boom, Hi everyone, and welcome
to this very special episode of No Win Scenario. I
am one of your hosts, Don Scheckter and with me
here in his No Win Scenario shirt. Once again, Trevor Chamberlain.
How you doing, Trevor.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I'm good and I wave even though this is.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Told him to not wave, especially with people listening. But yes,
he's waving semi emphatically with his weird small hands.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah, my weird, pasty small hands.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
But this is a special episode. Do you know why
this is a special episode, Trevor.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
This is the fifty Shades of Gray episode.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Right, No, no, no, this is you ruined it. This
is our clip show the Shades of Gray episode Shades
of Gray, as everyone knows the season, the second season
finale of Star Trek the Next Generation one of the
worst episodes ever.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Right, but we are special guest is Dakota Johnson from Shades.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Of Gray and everyone's keeping their clothes on. Okay, no
Shades of Gray. The end of season two Next Generation
was how do you say a disaster? People have said
it was a zero out of ten awful, awful episode
for a good time. Everyone should look up Wikipedia of
Shades of Gray. But we were here in the no
win scenario studio once again, it's awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
And realize it's pretty awesome.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
This was a great time in the middle of season
three to look back at this podcast. So we thought
we'd look at some of our favorite moments from the
last couple of years here. But I think before we
do that, well, before we do that, Traver's gonna or
listen to some episodes and figure out what we said.
But before we do that, Trevor like, people should talk
about the genesis of this podcast. I know we've joked
(02:06):
about it before.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
The genesis of the podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Was genesis get it punk, I get it pun intended go.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
On was that Don and I have always had this rapport.
Speaker 6 (02:24):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
We genuinely are good friends. Don just had me over
for dinner a few weeks ago, is very nice and
we get along really well. And even though our tastes
are are different, they are somewhat aligned. Yet we also have,
as many of you probably picked up by now, we
(02:46):
have zero respect for each other's taste. Correct, zero respect.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
The first thing you've ever said but agreed with.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
And at the same time, I had been producing podcasts
for a local hospital, and I think I was getting
frustrated with the content or maybe not, but I was like,
you know this podcast stuff I'm doing, why don't it
(03:15):
would be pretty cool if I did something that was
fun and you know, something that I really enjoyed, something
that was personal. And I thought about Don. I thought
about the back and forth we would have. I knew
if if I was going to sell it to Don,
it had to be science fiction. My only request was
(03:38):
is that it'd just be small, small, small, small, And
of course, the second I asked Don about it, not
only was he all in, but it got big, big, big,
and we had merch even before our first episode, which
(03:58):
I've been embarrassed about this day, I'm gonna get that
off the site.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
But yeah, and but we weren't even going to use
your your likeness or your full.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Name, right, we weren't going to use my full name.
And then we went back and forth on a name
for quite a while, and it just hit me. You know,
one of the few things we agree on is that
The Wrath of Khan is not just one of the best,
not just the best Star Trek movie, but one of
the best sci fi films UH made in the West.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
And it didn't age well.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
It didn't age well. You don't think it didn't.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
I'm just giving you all your time. I think I
can't do with you.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
I think it really well.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Except for the graphics, well, parasites like shades. The Great
Wicker has a parasite that causes him to seclips from
the show.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I prefer the puppetry and the analog look. But I'm
old and uh so it hit me. I was like, oh,
it's got to be no in scenario.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
And at the same time was season three of Startrik
to Card episode name Nonio no in Scenario. So it's
a natural fit that name, right, But you also want
to add a little bit of a mental health bit
to it.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
So maybe I did because I was working in mental
health of the time and wanted to whoever we interviewed.
I thought that I not to use it as a
marketing or a selling point, but I knew it would
make our podcast different. We could have fun, we can
rip on each other, we can talk about people's careers
(05:35):
and their backgrounds. But ultimately, not ultimately, but a part
of it. I wanted it to be how mental health
plays into their role in whatever they do. And sometimes
we don't even have to ask. We just recently did
an interview where they're where this person was very forward
(05:59):
about their industry and the effect that it's had on them,
and you know, we didn't even have to bring it up.
We've we've had some people that we've wanted to bring
it up to and they've said, okay, but we got
to just stay in this area and not go out
to this. Everybody has their own level of comfort in
discussing it. But uh, that was that is the mental
(06:22):
health aspect of it, and I was It's not that
I was. I was surprised that you and I don't
mean this in a negative way. I was surprised you
went along with that, because I would have thought that
you want you would want to keep it just strictly
fun sci fi. But when I said, when I brought
in that angle, you were all for it.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Don't take this the wrong way, Trevor, I fell asleep
like five minutes ago.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
You know, I tried. I tried to do something serious,
and this is the credit.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
It's actually a compliment. It might sound like I'm insulting you, but.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
I just gave you ten compliments.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
My father, Trevor has a nice voice for radio.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
But's why I pivoted to video.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Don has the better face for video.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Exactly right. Yeah, okay, let's not talk about it. But
that's interesting now. Of course I think it's important because
I think, you know, working in the industry here on
the East Coast and what we do here, like it
plays into it, the long, long hours and things like that,
especially if you're doing film work and stuff.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
I think a lot more people are talking about it too.
There is, for the longest time, and still to this day,
there's a stigma that goes along with mental health. I mean,
I've been kind of forward about my own mental health issues.
There's definitely a stigma that I need to battle with
almost every day and it uh and I'm just glad
(07:46):
that we have a bit of a forum, granted we
created it where we can talk about fun sci fi
things and you know, a serious side of mental health.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
So you're saying, my podcast is your therapy session.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Our podcast is partially a therapy session for you for
me and you for me.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
I'm in it for the dollars.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Yeah, yeah, and we're killing it on that level, let
me tell you.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
And that's why please listen to this Z. Well, that's
the general and it's gone in interesting directions, like every
year we're like, O, who we're going to get next,
and how do we get them? And it certainly was
easier during the strike in Hollywood. Probably would have been
easier if we started this during COVID.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Actually, yeah, right absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
But it's a been interesting how we had you know,
cinematographers and production designers and technicians in the first season
and then it became a lot of offers painters in
the second season, and then I kind of pivot into
actors and things like that. So it's gonna be interesting
to see where we go from here for the rest
of the season and then future seasons. But yeah, but
why don't we take a little break, get that sweet sweeth,
(08:54):
hand money, and then when we come back, we'll shades
the Greatness together, fifty shades of gray, no whin scenario,
shades of gray, coming right.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Up, coming right up, Welcome back in, Trevor.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
I think we should just start at the beginning. I mean,
I think we did our first two interviews pretty much
back to back. I believe it was right in the
middle of Star Trek Picard kind of going through, which
I know you had some issues with and I loved some.
But we had two close collaborators, production designer David Blass
(09:31):
and art director Liz Koklowski, who brought them the Enterprise
d to life again once more, which was quite the undertaking.
So I really thought it was a great way to
kick off the show and sort of hear how a
beloved show was brought back. And you know, I know
you have some issues with season three, but it really
had was closer to the magic of Next Gen than
(09:51):
the first two seasons were, and it was very interesting
to hear behind the scenes and how they brought back
the Enterprise to life.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Right, Let's me clarify, I'm very glad that I watched
season three very glad. It wasn't all for me, but
it was I'm glad because of these people that we interviewed.
I got to learn a lot more about what happened
behind the scenes. And I again, not to be repetitive,
(10:20):
I'm glad I saw season three.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I just you know, we had different experiences, like I
remember I got to go down to New York and
seeing in Imax with a big crowd right for the
premiere of the finale, right and you know, they saw
the second to last episode. We're all sitting there, hundreds
of people, big event. There was a Q and a
after with the cast, and then the beginning of that
final episode and you hear check V's voice in a
(10:42):
callback right to start took four and it was like,
oh my god, I can't believe. Like that was Yes,
it was fan service, but it was done.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
It made sense, right.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
And having that experience you just don't have anymore for
show that was thirty years ago.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
And I've known I know we've said this a million times,
but I'll say it again. The one thing we both
agree on best Trek credit sequence, absolutely soever.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Let's hear a little bit about what Dave Blast and
Les Kolowski.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
Time to let the adults talk.
Speaker 7 (11:07):
I'm Dave Blast. I'm the production designer on Star Trek
to Card seasons two and three. But as as a whole,
I'm a production designer in the film and television industry.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Production designer is.
Speaker 7 (11:19):
The guy who takes the script, read the script and says,
this show takes place on a spaceship, or it takes
place in a coal mine, or it takes place in
a bar, and it's up to me to work with
the creative team and figure out, Okay, how do we
do this. Do we go to a bar, do we
build a spaceship? Is it a visual effect? And how
(11:39):
do we turn the what's on the page into reality?
So I'm the turn the page into reality guy.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
I'm Liz Klokowski. I'm an art director for the film
and TV industry, and I guess most known for Star
Trek to Card and Promising Women. That's the Star Trek fandom.
Though they do care about what's behind the left care
about all of the artists. You know, the musicians, the directors,
the writers. I mean they know everybody by name. So
our directors have been thrown in. But even since original series.
(12:07):
I mean, Matt Jeffries is a household name, you know,
and he was the art director. He's not not acting
in the show. They named a set after him, you know,
the Jeffries Tube. We're kind of like project managers, or
you could like a not a construction coordinator, because we
work with the construction coordinator, but it's kind of like
the wedding planner of the film set. So we were construction, paint, greens, drapery,
(12:29):
set dressing. We liaise all those departments, to the lighting departments,
to the camera departments, to the ads, you know, assistant directors,
maybe the actors want something.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
We're day to day with the director.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
Hey, the director's asking for this, so we basically facilitate
getting this stuff delivered for the shoot day.
Speaker 7 (12:46):
As it used to be, you know, for years, all
the production, most of the production was done in Los Angeles,
and you especially if you were doing TV. You know,
you'd go to work, you know, every day at Warner
Brothers for twenty two episodes, and you'd work for a
year on a on a season of a TV show,
and you have your things, and that's what it was.
(13:07):
But now with the streaming world, everything's cut down to
ten episodes if if that, and it's not done in
LA it's done in Atlanta or New Orleans or New
Mexico or Toronto or you know any you know, yeah,
Bulgaria exactly. You look at you know, something like Netflix Wednesday.
(13:29):
I mean, the show takes place in Vancouver and Vermont,
and they showed it in Bulgaria or Brutapest. Every six months,
you're jumping on a plane finding anywhere else to go
somewhere else, and you know, and then that you know,
that takes a toll in people's families, and you know,
and all that other stuff.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
So I had a show shooting in Mexico. They called
me on a Friday and they were like, can you
start Monday, meaning you need to be in Mexico on Sunday.
And so I had like two days to pack my
life up. But they said, once they send you the
deal in the mail, it's like the legal document. You know,
you sent sign your deal memo, you agree to what
the rate is, and then the travel coordinator sends you
the info or the office will send you you know,
(14:09):
here's where you park on your first day to get
your pass or whatever. You know, it just depends on
where the where it's shooting. I had been trying to
get on Pickcard and then COVID hit and they had
basically they had already crewed up. So it wasn't there's
no hard feelings or anything, but they had already crewed up.
And then somebody quit and my I had a friend
that was working on the show. He kept putting my
resume on their desk, but you know, there are other
(14:29):
people in line, so they hired like three different people,
and then you know there was turnover or you know,
people leave for other jobs all the time. It's pretty frequent.
Actually just replace yourself. And I was on this show.
It went like season one only called Rebel for ABC,
and we were like in the last two episodes and
so I just like gave my notice. They were mad,
(14:49):
but I mean it was the end of the show,
so you I replaced myself. Everybody was fine, nobody died,
and then I got in. It was I'm like, it's
it's Star.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Trek, guys, it's a where.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Yeah, And they decorated my whole office like space and
Spock everywhere, and they were so excited for me.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
So one of the episodes that really stood out for
me was season two with Star Trek author David Mack.
He written Star Trek Picard Firewall heavily central around seven
of nine, who wasn't one of my favorite characters watching
the show. I loved her in Startup Pcard. We'll get
into legacy another time, but I was really impressed and
(15:26):
grateful to hear how candid he was about how people
who may not respond to what's in his book, how
you know what his thoughts are on that.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
He was about as open as Eddie Guest could ever be.
I mean, he no fear to say whatever was on
his mind, very open about mental health issues, very open
about the fan a small section of the fan base
(15:58):
who he is very much in a disagreement with. Incredible
interview one of my favorites.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Let's take a listen, hold on to something.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
The entire point of Firewall as a novel is that
it's structured like a classic buildings Roman or coming of
age tail, and the idea behind Firewall is that it's
supposed to be, for seven, a queer, normative coming of
age tale, except that in the you know findsic. Late
twenty fourth early twenty fifth century Federation being you know
(16:30):
lesbian or whatever is not considered any big deal. That's
not going to be a source of statement. But we
find the allegory for that in the fact that because
she has Borg implants that she cannot be rid of
because it would kill her if they took them out,
she has this sort of mark, this indelible thing that
(16:52):
people can see. You know, this is a culture that
has still just barely survived recent fatal near fatal brushes
with the board. They're still terrified of the boorg. There's
a lot of prejudice, there's a lot of fear, there's
a lot of anger. So when she starts living there,
you know, early in the book, you see she gets
her house vandalized. Somebody pains dye Borg bitch on the
front of her house, and the cops aren't really interested
(17:14):
in doing anything about it. And it's because she has
this very visible thing that makes her different and therefore
self conscious, but she can't change. In that respect, it
could be an allegory for both prejudice against race, but
also it's about prejudice against those who are openly queer,
openly different. You know, anything not cis heteronormative. One of
(17:36):
the things that upsets me most is seeing bullying elevated
to the political arena, bullying elevated to the legislative scale
of things. When bullying gets to the point where we're
now actively legislating making people's very existence potentially a felony,
(17:56):
to make it just to exist as you are, honestly are,
that's the point where I just have to say, you know,
screw you. I'm going to fight you on this one,
because now you're messing with my colleagues, You're messing with
members of my family, You're messing with my friends. I
would love to have this book get banned in multiple
states across the Sun Belt. I would love to have
(18:16):
Florida and Texas declare me a threat to the American family.
Go ahead, boost my sales, I dare you please order
in bulk. Feel free to barn them them as long
as you pay for them first.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
You know, someone else who opened up to us was
Jenny R. Johnson, the artist up in Canada who jumped
on our show has been you know, I've seen in
all the photos and conventions and stuff and doing our work,
and they've got her picture up there from far beyond
the stars of Benny Russell looking out at Cisco in
the reflection and I love that that hangs up actually
(18:51):
in my office. Though. It was interesting to hear her
how she found Next Gen and what that meant for
her growing up, and just hear about her work and
how meaningful it is, and you know, if she keeps
doing it, and kudos to her.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Right, I bought I bought one of her prints of
Sigourney Weaver with the Flamethrower from Aliens. I absolutely love it.
She's incredibly talented and it was great to hear her
story about how she was a not to say she's
not a serious artist now, but you know she was.
(19:24):
She was a painter and it it kind of wasn't
going anywhere financially for her. And she had this pop
culture background and grew up with Star Trek, and so
she just started painting these you know, these stills, these
scenes from famous episodes, famous movies, and like people went
(19:48):
nuts over them. And it's not that she's doing well financially,
she's like building a name for herself. Like a lot
of the major players know who she is. Yeah, and
I wouldn't be so prize if she gets tapped to
paint like the cover of a major book or something
like that. It's just I think it's just a matter
of time for her. She's too too damn talented.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
I agree, you'll tear a little bit from her engage.
Speaker 8 (20:13):
I was a really imaginative kid, but I also was
an ADHD kid in the eighties and a girl, so.
Speaker 9 (20:23):
I yeah, so you know, I would blurt things out.
I would.
Speaker 8 (20:27):
I didn't sort of have the filter that would necessarily
keep me, you know, under the radar with the other kids.
So I was picked on pretty pretty badly the point
where I just kind of was trying to separate myself
from it. So I was hanging out in the library
at lunch and you know, like eating my lunch alone
like that kind of. But and then, you know, and
(20:47):
then I go home in the evenings and I just
be watching TV and just kind of, you know, trying
to trying to be okay. And there was one day
that I was just flipping through the channels and I
saw that guy from reading Rainbow, oh, you know, and
I was like, oh hey, and he's like crawling around
in the mud. What's going on here? And then I
started watching and I realized that, like I didn't really
(21:10):
know this was about nineteen ninety one, so Star Trek
the Next Generation had been on the air for several
years at that point, but I guess I didn't really
have I kind of knew that it was a thing,
but I didn't really I'd never seen it, so I was.
Speaker 9 (21:25):
Like, wait a minute, Oh, this is like that new
Star Trek show.
Speaker 8 (21:28):
And then I watched the rest of the episode and
was you know, it was the Enemy was.
Speaker 5 (21:33):
The first one?
Speaker 9 (21:34):
Yeah, ok yeah, so you know, and he's like stuck.
Speaker 8 (21:38):
On learning core with the Romulan and and.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I was just like that, that's the episode that's sung
to you.
Speaker 8 (21:43):
That was yeah, And there was actually a little while
that I sort of didn't see it again.
Speaker 9 (21:48):
I don't know.
Speaker 8 (21:49):
And then the next episode that I watched was Skin
of Evo of all things.
Speaker 9 (21:54):
I know, I know, but but there's something about that.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah I know the names, No I saw it, Okay.
Speaker 8 (22:05):
Yeah, so you know, I get to the end of
this episode and I don't really know these characters, but
I'm crying.
Speaker 9 (22:10):
I'm just like, this is the greatest show I've ever seen.
Speaker 8 (22:13):
And yeah, it was about sort of right around the
point where I was about twelve years old. Okay, Yeah,
and it as I you know, and and and from
then on I was watching it because it was on
five days a week in syndication at that point, and
I was watching it religiously every day.
Speaker 9 (22:31):
I started, you know, recording it on.
Speaker 8 (22:33):
VHS, and it became like my world because all of
a sudden, I had this other place to go, you know,
the Star Trek and and TNG in particular, that group
of people, that crew, like the characters were such a family,
(22:55):
and I mean, I mean and now we know in
retrospect that they the actors themselves were just loved each other,
and obviously that came across. So there was that like
like like I felt like part of the crew, you know,
I felt like.
Speaker 9 (23:12):
Yeah, like like and.
Speaker 8 (23:13):
Then sort of having this having this friend group of
chosen friends, right, that really wasn't the thing growing up, right,
You just were friends with the people that you grew
up with. So it's yeah, like like like in that
chosen family, that idea really really spoke to me. The
scene from the d Space nine episode Far Beyond the
(23:34):
Stars where Benny Russell is looking out the window and
sees the reflection of Ben Cisco, So that particular scene
was chosen that was another commission, and that was chosen
by a gentleman who has become a collector and friend
(23:54):
in San Francisco, who his wife's African American, and he
introduced her to d Phase nine and she connected hugely
with with Cisco and that episode in particular, just that
that moment, and he just thought it was such a
such a kind of evocative moment. And that's that's what
(24:15):
I look for when i'm you know, when I'm wanting.
Speaker 9 (24:18):
To to choose.
Speaker 8 (24:20):
Yeah, like to choose the moment, I either want something
that is like iconic or something that really really kind
of gets across like the feeling of watching it.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
You know this because this is somewhat seriously and I'm
saying this is like a not a Devil's advocate, But
I don't believe what I'm saying. But does painting something
that already has emotion baked in? Is it cheating? Is
it cheating?
Speaker 9 (24:47):
I mean maybe, but I don't I don't care.
Speaker 10 (24:54):
No, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
No, No, I actually think that's a very very compelled
it is.
Speaker 9 (25:00):
It is absolutely.
Speaker 8 (25:01):
I mean, I think for me, the challenge isn't so
much in creating a new feeling it's more about like
working from photos, working from an existing reference. For me,
the challenge in it is to recreate the light, the mood,
(25:25):
the the you know, even down to the fact that
you know that that episode is filmed on it's like
on video, isn't it Like it's not even.
Speaker 9 (25:36):
It's not an HD. Just just those kind of things.
Speaker 8 (25:40):
I'm really interested in light, shadow, the things the camera does.
So for me, what I'm doing and sort of my
my experience and making these paintings for myself has a
lot more to do with h.
Speaker 5 (26:00):
Yeah, like.
Speaker 8 (26:02):
Accurately recreating a moment, and yeah, if it the fact
that these moments have like feeling attached to them, awesome.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Now, we usually deal with celebrities here at no win
scenario because we're that popular, but we did have a
local hero here.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Your friend, Yes, my friend Brown Brian, our friend who
is the head of Independent Film Festival Boston and is
a very very big fan of a movie that I
like to call Dune nineteen eighty four.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
David Lynch's Dune.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Dune nineteen eighty four, which.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Sting recently said was an un is a masterpiece that
people just don't understand. He just literally liked this week
ago or so.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
I don't believe that for a second, but I mean,
I don't like I'm a huge, huge fan of David Lynch,
one of my all time favorite filmmakers. Cried when he died,
totally cried. Not a fan of Doune. That said, I
love Dune. Yes, that said Brian Tam from the Independent
(27:05):
Film Festival Boston and Don have really bonded because they
both love Dune nineteen eighty four, David Lynch Dune, and
we had no then.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
It is the year ten thousand and one on any
one the known universe is rule, but the past driversh
on the fourth go ahead, go ahead. I promised him
I wouldn't do this.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
We had Brian Tam on the show. And even though
I in the edit I cut some of this out.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
It was you haven't edited a second of this.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
I edited the Brian Tam episode.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
That's the one you did.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Yeah, and I did another one too. I don't remember
I've done too. Get out probably, but it was clear
that and I'm not laughing at him, but it was
it was clear that he was very uncomfortable with our
back and forth.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Did not like it.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
No, he did not like it at all, like you
did not like I remember him telling people, well, uh uh.
I was working on a project with him a few
weeks later, and he was like, Trevor, such a sweet guy,
and I never hurt him like this. He was just
so monstrous to his friend. I mean, I couldn't believe it.
And uh yeah, he brings it out and what are
(28:17):
you gonna do?
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Thank you, Brian, Yeah, thank you Brian. We're gonna play
a clip of Brian being uncomfortable, I hope, So move
on Brian's sake, which just move, just go right back up, man.
We'll just move on to Toddy Slayton and our friend
who we discovered and we had now one but two
episodes with Todd. You know, worked on Deep Space Dine.
Gave us a lot of background lore on Far Beyond
the Stars. One of my favorite episodes of Deep Space
(28:40):
Dine and one of the few episodes you actually watched. Ye,
great episode. Let's first hear from him.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Yep, we're doing this.
Speaker 5 (28:47):
I was on the phones that day.
Speaker 10 (28:48):
Now I said something online and I got blasted for it.
We considered Star Trek the Black Star Trek. We had Avery,
we had LeVar directing, We had Michael Door, and we
had we had Brock, we had myself, we had Penny.
I mean, I can just name the whole list. We
had all these stand ins who were black for them.
So it was very afrocentric crew without being like anti
(29:11):
white or pro just afro centric.
Speaker 5 (29:14):
So we would sit around us and me being one.
Speaker 10 (29:16):
Of the younger ones, I was mentored by plenty of
names I could name that you would never know on
the crew who were involved with electrical life anyway.
Speaker 5 (29:25):
So we're outside and right by the door you go with,
I think it's Stage four's right there.
Speaker 10 (29:31):
Then there's my desk or the phone desk, so I
could hear the I have my foot in the door,
you know, everything else. And Avery just comes busting out
and he goes, gentlemen, have.
Speaker 5 (29:40):
A nice weekend. I'm not putting up with us.
Speaker 10 (29:43):
And he leaves and I'm like, what happened? And he
has an assistant. His name is Brian Andrew Tungsta. Brian's
a great guy, amazing makeup artist, and Brian and Avery
were really close, very close.
Speaker 5 (29:56):
He was the closest to Brian.
Speaker 10 (29:58):
So Brian goes and sneaks up and he goes to
Avery's trailer and then Brian comes back and Brian says
to me, he said, oh, mister Beet's going home. I
was like, dude, this is one o'clock. He can't leave that.
We got like and I pull up the list like
this guy like five more scenes. Next thing you know,
mister b pulls up and his black convertible Mercedes. He
got the hot glasses on, he got the suit jacket
(30:19):
and everything on.
Speaker 5 (30:20):
He does Jim has a big d and he rolls off.
He rolls out, and Brian's off.
Speaker 10 (30:27):
Twenty minutes later, ten minutes whatever it was, the door
bust open again.
Speaker 5 (30:30):
It's Steve Oaster. He's panicked.
Speaker 10 (30:32):
He's like, where's where's the yeah co producer and he's like,
where's Avery? And Brian just goes, uh, probably over Texas.
So we are blessing up. So now Brian gets to
go home, right, So Brian, Avery's done, there's no need
for Brian off the fuck. Well, I gotta stay until
we wrapped, So I'm going to say it. So the
next morning I'm standing in for Avery because his stuntman,
(30:57):
who is Brian? Excuse me, John Lindell been at rest
in peace, Johnny. He was doing stunts at the time
on the other show. So that Monday at the stand
in for Avery. So we're at Quarks Bar. God, I'm
gonna get in trouble for this, but I'm gonna go
ahead and say it. And so Avery goes to me
and he would turn and now he's sitting there at
the bar, and he got his tooth picked, and he's
(31:18):
like this with his sides and yeah, look at that residual.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
But finally he's.
Speaker 10 (31:25):
Sitting there with his sides reading and I'm reading with them.
And he goes, so, uh, what happened after I left?
I said they had to rewrite. I said, we were
here till like eleven thirty. He said.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
I said, it was just you know they were they
gonna do. Mister b He looks at me. He said,
this is the part I'm I get in trouble for.
Speaker 10 (31:44):
He said, mister He said, mister Slayton, if they don't
treat you like, sometimes you act like.
Speaker 5 (31:53):
And I turned right back and went back to his thing.
And we never talked about it again. So much to me.
Speaker 10 (32:00):
And I know that's controversial as hell because it doesn't
mean a black thing.
Speaker 5 (32:06):
It means a human thing, power things, power, thing.
Speaker 10 (32:09):
They want to They want to push you around and
push you till you break. And I saw him do it.
I saw him try to do it with him and
he just got tired of it.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
And was it. Do you suspect it was like a
contract negotiation issue.
Speaker 11 (32:21):
Human changing words, talking down, just kind of like people
are tired, you're not showing the proper respect to him,
and he is the you know, you're whoever he's the
show is him, and so he was just fed up.
Speaker 5 (32:35):
There's you know, there was a couple.
Speaker 10 (32:37):
Of times where that happened, and it was just you know,
other actors shining at that time and being bravoed and
constantly bravoed, and you'd being like, Okay, we'll get to
you in a minute, and you're the star of the show.
It gets a little old, you know type of thing,
And I think that's what it was. It wasn't the
N word, it was just the attitude treatment.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
And then of course Todd in some of his friends
and we had a nice little Red Deep Space nine
reunion that was so nice to hear. And you know
what I like about our podcast, if I'm serious, is
that we spend enough time with our guests. There's enough
time for them to like open up and tell us
about you know, not just what they worked on, what
they're known for, but what it's like working and the
challenges they've had.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
And sometimes they get down to the bitter truth too, and.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
They get the better truth, like we know from this season.
But you know, Todd was great. Kathy was so interesting
with the murder mark. But really Robin like seeing you know,
her former colleagues and her friends and seeing how meaningful
that interaction was with her was I thought a really
great way to end last season. Let's take a listen.
Speaker 6 (33:42):
I've been I've been diagnosed with Parkinson, So I am
very emotional anyway, because I have a I appreciate every
single day and I appreciate every friend that I have
that cares about me.
Speaker 5 (33:54):
I appreciate what Star Trek did to me.
Speaker 6 (33:56):
And I'm doing really well.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
I mean, I.
Speaker 6 (33:59):
Feel great, and I feel like I have a lot
of life and stories ahead of me. But I I
know that what this time in my life was a
Star Trek was was special and I'll never forget it
no matter how hard things get. With your mom with
cancer and with the you know, Kathy who had just
(34:19):
had back surgery and recovered, and Mark are just being crazy.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
I just had grainy old rectal extraction surgery.
Speaker 5 (34:27):
Because they're doing things like those. You know, we will talk.
Speaker 6 (34:31):
Kathy and I have always got back together after several years,
and now we've been you know, we had a pajama
party last weekend, just you know, watching the documentaries and
eating food.
Speaker 5 (34:46):
It's so good. Just don't even think about it. Brother,
slumber party of my house.
Speaker 6 (34:55):
I think it's brought us all back together a little
bit doing podcast and I thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
And that was it. That was the end of season two.
I'm glad we're here in season three. Where are you looking?
You're looking? That's your camera over there, Trevor. For those
people listening, we.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Can find I'm looking at the center.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Came the Wide Shop. But yeah, but if you want
us to talk to the audience, you talk to the
audience right there. Man, No, you just want to look dead.
What a horrible way to come out of Robin's bit.
Oh my god, Our Shades of Gray episode is nearly dofty.
Shades Our Shades of Gray season two. I just dawned
on me this is season three, but we're recapping season two,
(35:35):
which aligns perfectly with Next generations.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Nobody cares.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Nobody cares.
Speaker 5 (35:39):
I call that. Well.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
On that note, I guess we'll just see in the
next episode, Trevor.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
See in the next episode looking in the right camera.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Now, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Apple Breaker, Audible, find us on YouTube, TikTok,
all that.
Speaker 5 (35:57):
Fun, Instagram.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Instagram is still there.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
You're sill on Instagram? All right bye. In today's world,
mental health is everyone's concern. If you are someone you
know is in crisis, please use these resources. For US listeners,
call one eight hundred nine five zero six two sixty
four or text helpline all one word h E L
(36:23):
P l I N E to six two six four zero,
or email helpline at NAMY dot org. That's n A
m I dot org. For our international listeners, please visit
suicide Stop dot com. That's s U I c I
D E S t O P dot com.
I haven't listened to anything you've said in the last
twenty seconds.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Damn it, Trevor.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
We had a shit lying.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
Two friends who hate each other, rude talking science fiction.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
It has become this cultural phenomenon, along with some special guests.
Speaker 4 (00:15):
I appreciate what Star Trek did to me.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
I would love to have this book get banned.
Speaker 5 (00:19):
And that wasn't acting, That wasn't real.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Do you know what a YouTube channel is?
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Absolutely not No Win Scenario with Trevor and Dawn.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Okay, we're not doing that. Boom, Hi everyone, and welcome
to this very special episode of No Win Scenario. I
am one of your hosts, Don Scheckter and with me
here in his No Win Scenario shirt. Once again, Trevor Chamberlain.
How you doing, Trevor.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I'm good and I wave even though this is.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Told him to not wave, especially with people listening. But yes,
he's waving semi emphatically with his weird small hands.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah, my weird, pasty small hands.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
But this is a special episode. Do you know why
this is a special episode, Trevor.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
This is the fifty Shades of Gray episode.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Right, No, no, no, this is you ruined it. This
is our clip show the Shades of Gray episode Shades
of Gray, as everyone knows the season, the second season
finale of Star Trek the Next Generation one of the
worst episodes ever.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Right, but we are special guest is Dakota Johnson from Shades.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Of Gray and everyone's keeping their clothes on. Okay, no
Shades of Gray. The end of season two Next Generation
was how do you say a disaster? People have said
it was a zero out of ten awful, awful episode
for a good time. Everyone should look up Wikipedia of
Shades of Gray. But we were here in the no
win scenario studio once again, it's awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
And realize it's pretty awesome.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
This was a great time in the middle of season
three to look back at this podcast. So we thought
we'd look at some of our favorite moments from the
last couple of years here. But I think before we
do that, well, before we do that, Traver's gonna or
listen to some episodes and figure out what we said.
But before we do that, Trevor like, people should talk
about the genesis of this podcast. I know we've joked
(02:06):
about it before.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
The genesis of the podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Was genesis get it punk, I get it pun intended go.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
On was that Don and I have always had this rapport.
Speaker 6 (02:24):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
We genuinely are good friends. Don just had me over
for dinner a few weeks ago, is very nice and
we get along really well. And even though our tastes
are are different, they are somewhat aligned. Yet we also have,
as many of you probably picked up by now, we
(02:46):
have zero respect for each other's taste. Correct, zero respect.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
The first thing you've ever said but agreed with.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
And at the same time, I had been producing podcasts
for a local hospital, and I think I was getting
frustrated with the content or maybe not, but I was like,
you know this podcast stuff I'm doing, why don't it
(03:15):
would be pretty cool if I did something that was
fun and you know, something that I really enjoyed, something
that was personal. And I thought about Don. I thought
about the back and forth we would have. I knew
if if I was going to sell it to Don,
it had to be science fiction. My only request was
(03:38):
is that it'd just be small, small, small, small, And
of course, the second I asked Don about it, not
only was he all in, but it got big, big, big,
and we had merch even before our first episode, which
(03:58):
I've been embarrassed about this day, I'm gonna get that
off the site.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
But yeah, and but we weren't even going to use
your your likeness or your full.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Name, right, we weren't going to use my full name.
And then we went back and forth on a name
for quite a while, and it just hit me. You know,
one of the few things we agree on is that
The Wrath of Khan is not just one of the best,
not just the best Star Trek movie, but one of
the best sci fi films UH made in the West.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
And it didn't age well.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
It didn't age well. You don't think it didn't.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
I'm just giving you all your time. I think I
can't do with you.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
I think it really well.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Except for the graphics, well, parasites like shades. The Great
Wicker has a parasite that causes him to seclips from
the show.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I prefer the puppetry and the analog look. But I'm
old and uh so it hit me. I was like, oh,
it's got to be no in scenario.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
And at the same time was season three of Startrik
to Card episode name Nonio no in Scenario. So it's
a natural fit that name, right, But you also want
to add a little bit of a mental health bit
to it.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
So maybe I did because I was working in mental
health of the time and wanted to whoever we interviewed.
I thought that I not to use it as a
marketing or a selling point, but I knew it would
make our podcast different. We could have fun, we can
rip on each other, we can talk about people's careers
(05:35):
and their backgrounds. But ultimately, not ultimately, but a part
of it. I wanted it to be how mental health
plays into their role in whatever they do. And sometimes
we don't even have to ask. We just recently did
an interview where they're where this person was very forward
(05:59):
about their industry and the effect that it's had on them,
and you know, we didn't even have to bring it up.
We've we've had some people that we've wanted to bring
it up to and they've said, okay, but we got
to just stay in this area and not go out
to this. Everybody has their own level of comfort in
discussing it. But uh, that was that is the mental
(06:22):
health aspect of it, and I was It's not that
I was. I was surprised that you and I don't
mean this in a negative way. I was surprised you
went along with that, because I would have thought that
you want you would want to keep it just strictly
fun sci fi. But when I said, when I brought
in that angle, you were all for it.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Don't take this the wrong way, Trevor, I fell asleep
like five minutes ago.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
You know, I tried. I tried to do something serious,
and this is the credit.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
It's actually a compliment. It might sound like I'm insulting you, but.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
I just gave you ten compliments.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
My father, Trevor has a nice voice for radio.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
But's why I pivoted to video.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Don has the better face for video.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Exactly right. Yeah, okay, let's not talk about it. But
that's interesting now. Of course I think it's important because
I think, you know, working in the industry here on
the East Coast and what we do here, like it
plays into it, the long, long hours and things like that,
especially if you're doing film work and stuff.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
I think a lot more people are talking about it too.
There is, for the longest time, and still to this day,
there's a stigma that goes along with mental health. I mean,
I've been kind of forward about my own mental health issues.
There's definitely a stigma that I need to battle with
almost every day and it uh and I'm just glad
(07:46):
that we have a bit of a forum, granted we
created it where we can talk about fun sci fi
things and you know, a serious side of mental health.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
So you're saying, my podcast is your therapy session.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Our podcast is partially a therapy session for you for
me and you for me.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
I'm in it for the dollars.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Yeah, yeah, and we're killing it on that level, let
me tell you.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
And that's why please listen to this Z. Well, that's
the general and it's gone in interesting directions, like every
year we're like, O, who we're going to get next,
and how do we get them? And it certainly was
easier during the strike in Hollywood. Probably would have been
easier if we started this during COVID.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Actually, yeah, right absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
But it's a been interesting how we had you know,
cinematographers and production designers and technicians in the first season
and then it became a lot of offers painters in
the second season, and then I kind of pivot into
actors and things like that. So it's gonna be interesting
to see where we go from here for the rest
of the season and then future seasons. But yeah, but
why don't we take a little break, get that sweet sweeth,
(08:54):
hand money, and then when we come back, we'll shades
the Greatness together, fifty shades of gray, no whin scenario,
shades of gray, coming right.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Up, coming right up, Welcome back in, Trevor.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
I think we should just start at the beginning. I mean,
I think we did our first two interviews pretty much
back to back. I believe it was right in the
middle of Star Trek Picard kind of going through, which
I know you had some issues with and I loved some.
But we had two close collaborators, production designer David Blass
(09:31):
and art director Liz Koklowski, who brought them the Enterprise
d to life again once more, which was quite the undertaking.
So I really thought it was a great way to
kick off the show and sort of hear how a
beloved show was brought back. And you know, I know
you have some issues with season three, but it really
had was closer to the magic of Next Gen than
(09:51):
the first two seasons were, and it was very interesting
to hear behind the scenes and how they brought back
the Enterprise to life.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Right, Let's me clarify, I'm very glad that I watched
season three very glad. It wasn't all for me, but
it was I'm glad because of these people that we interviewed.
I got to learn a lot more about what happened
behind the scenes. And I again, not to be repetitive,
(10:20):
I'm glad I saw season three.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I just you know, we had different experiences, like I
remember I got to go down to New York and
seeing in Imax with a big crowd right for the
premiere of the finale, right and you know, they saw
the second to last episode. We're all sitting there, hundreds
of people, big event. There was a Q and a
after with the cast, and then the beginning of that
final episode and you hear check V's voice in a
(10:42):
callback right to start took four and it was like,
oh my god, I can't believe. Like that was Yes,
it was fan service, but it was done.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
It made sense, right.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
And having that experience you just don't have anymore for
show that was thirty years ago.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
And I've known I know we've said this a million times,
but I'll say it again. The one thing we both
agree on best Trek credit sequence, absolutely soever.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Let's hear a little bit about what Dave Blast and
Les Kolowski.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
Time to let the adults talk.
Speaker 7 (11:07):
I'm Dave Blast. I'm the production designer on Star Trek
to Card seasons two and three. But as as a whole,
I'm a production designer in the film and television industry.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Production designer is.
Speaker 7 (11:19):
The guy who takes the script, read the script and says,
this show takes place on a spaceship, or it takes
place in a coal mine, or it takes place in
a bar, and it's up to me to work with
the creative team and figure out, Okay, how do we
do this. Do we go to a bar, do we
build a spaceship? Is it a visual effect? And how
(11:39):
do we turn the what's on the page into reality?
So I'm the turn the page into reality guy.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
I'm Liz Klokowski. I'm an art director for the film
and TV industry, and I guess most known for Star
Trek to Card and Promising Women. That's the Star Trek fandom.
Though they do care about what's behind the left care
about all of the artists. You know, the musicians, the directors,
the writers. I mean they know everybody by name. So
our directors have been thrown in. But even since original series.
(12:07):
I mean, Matt Jeffries is a household name, you know,
and he was the art director. He's not not acting
in the show. They named a set after him, you know,
the Jeffries Tube. We're kind of like project managers, or
you could like a not a construction coordinator, because we
work with the construction coordinator, but it's kind of like
the wedding planner of the film set. So we were construction, paint, greens, drapery,
(12:29):
set dressing. We liaise all those departments, to the lighting departments,
to the camera departments, to the ads, you know, assistant directors,
maybe the actors want something.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
We're day to day with the director.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
Hey, the director's asking for this, so we basically facilitate
getting this stuff delivered for the shoot day.
Speaker 7 (12:46):
As it used to be, you know, for years, all
the production, most of the production was done in Los Angeles,
and you especially if you were doing TV. You know,
you'd go to work, you know, every day at Warner
Brothers for twenty two episodes, and you'd work for a
year on a on a season of a TV show,
and you have your things, and that's what it was.
(13:07):
But now with the streaming world, everything's cut down to
ten episodes if if that, and it's not done in
LA it's done in Atlanta or New Orleans or New
Mexico or Toronto or you know any you know, yeah,
Bulgaria exactly. You look at you know, something like Netflix Wednesday.
(13:29):
I mean, the show takes place in Vancouver and Vermont,
and they showed it in Bulgaria or Brutapest. Every six months,
you're jumping on a plane finding anywhere else to go
somewhere else, and you know, and then that you know,
that takes a toll in people's families, and you know,
and all that other stuff.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
So I had a show shooting in Mexico. They called
me on a Friday and they were like, can you
start Monday, meaning you need to be in Mexico on Sunday.
And so I had like two days to pack my
life up. But they said, once they send you the
deal in the mail, it's like the legal document. You know,
you sent sign your deal memo, you agree to what
the rate is, and then the travel coordinator sends you
the info or the office will send you you know,
(14:09):
here's where you park on your first day to get
your pass or whatever. You know, it just depends on
where the where it's shooting. I had been trying to
get on Pickcard and then COVID hit and they had
basically they had already crewed up. So it wasn't there's
no hard feelings or anything, but they had already crewed up.
And then somebody quit and my I had a friend
that was working on the show. He kept putting my
resume on their desk, but you know, there are other
(14:29):
people in line, so they hired like three different people,
and then you know there was turnover or you know,
people leave for other jobs all the time. It's pretty frequent.
Actually just replace yourself. And I was on this show.
It went like season one only called Rebel for ABC,
and we were like in the last two episodes and
so I just like gave my notice. They were mad,
(14:49):
but I mean it was the end of the show,
so you I replaced myself. Everybody was fine, nobody died,
and then I got in. It was I'm like, it's
it's Star.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Trek, guys, it's a where.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Yeah, And they decorated my whole office like space and
Spock everywhere, and they were so excited for me.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
So one of the episodes that really stood out for
me was season two with Star Trek author David Mack.
He written Star Trek Picard Firewall heavily central around seven
of nine, who wasn't one of my favorite characters watching
the show. I loved her in Startup Pcard. We'll get
into legacy another time, but I was really impressed and
(15:26):
grateful to hear how candid he was about how people
who may not respond to what's in his book, how
you know what his thoughts are on that.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
He was about as open as Eddie Guest could ever be.
I mean, he no fear to say whatever was on
his mind, very open about mental health issues, very open
about the fan a small section of the fan base
(15:58):
who he is very much in a disagreement with. Incredible
interview one of my favorites.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Let's take a listen, hold on to something.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
The entire point of Firewall as a novel is that
it's structured like a classic buildings Roman or coming of
age tail, and the idea behind Firewall is that it's
supposed to be, for seven, a queer, normative coming of
age tale, except that in the you know findsic. Late
twenty fourth early twenty fifth century Federation being you know
(16:30):
lesbian or whatever is not considered any big deal. That's
not going to be a source of statement. But we
find the allegory for that in the fact that because
she has Borg implants that she cannot be rid of
because it would kill her if they took them out,
she has this sort of mark, this indelible thing that
(16:52):
people can see. You know, this is a culture that
has still just barely survived recent fatal near fatal brushes
with the board. They're still terrified of the boorg. There's
a lot of prejudice, there's a lot of fear, there's
a lot of anger. So when she starts living there,
you know, early in the book, you see she gets
her house vandalized. Somebody pains dye Borg bitch on the
front of her house, and the cops aren't really interested
(17:14):
in doing anything about it. And it's because she has
this very visible thing that makes her different and therefore
self conscious, but she can't change. In that respect, it
could be an allegory for both prejudice against race, but
also it's about prejudice against those who are openly queer,
openly different. You know, anything not cis heteronormative. One of
(17:36):
the things that upsets me most is seeing bullying elevated
to the political arena, bullying elevated to the legislative scale
of things. When bullying gets to the point where we're
now actively legislating making people's very existence potentially a felony,
(17:56):
to make it just to exist as you are, honestly are,
that's the point where I just have to say, you know,
screw you. I'm going to fight you on this one,
because now you're messing with my colleagues, You're messing with
members of my family, You're messing with my friends. I
would love to have this book get banned in multiple
states across the Sun Belt. I would love to have
(18:16):
Florida and Texas declare me a threat to the American family.
Go ahead, boost my sales, I dare you please order
in bulk. Feel free to barn them them as long
as you pay for them first.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
You know, someone else who opened up to us was
Jenny R. Johnson, the artist up in Canada who jumped
on our show has been you know, I've seen in
all the photos and conventions and stuff and doing our work,
and they've got her picture up there from far beyond
the stars of Benny Russell looking out at Cisco in
the reflection and I love that that hangs up actually
(18:51):
in my office. Though. It was interesting to hear her
how she found Next Gen and what that meant for
her growing up, and just hear about her work and
how meaningful it is, and you know, if she keeps
doing it, and kudos to her.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Right, I bought I bought one of her prints of
Sigourney Weaver with the Flamethrower from Aliens. I absolutely love it.
She's incredibly talented and it was great to hear her
story about how she was a not to say she's
not a serious artist now, but you know she was.
(19:24):
She was a painter and it it kind of wasn't
going anywhere financially for her. And she had this pop
culture background and grew up with Star Trek, and so
she just started painting these you know, these stills, these
scenes from famous episodes, famous movies, and like people went
(19:48):
nuts over them. And it's not that she's doing well financially,
she's like building a name for herself. Like a lot
of the major players know who she is. Yeah, and
I wouldn't be so prize if she gets tapped to
paint like the cover of a major book or something
like that. It's just I think it's just a matter
of time for her. She's too too damn talented.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
I agree, you'll tear a little bit from her engage.
Speaker 8 (20:13):
I was a really imaginative kid, but I also was
an ADHD kid in the eighties and a girl, so.
Speaker 9 (20:23):
I yeah, so you know, I would blurt things out.
I would.
Speaker 8 (20:27):
I didn't sort of have the filter that would necessarily
keep me, you know, under the radar with the other kids.
So I was picked on pretty pretty badly the point
where I just kind of was trying to separate myself
from it. So I was hanging out in the library
at lunch and you know, like eating my lunch alone
like that kind of. But and then, you know, and
(20:47):
then I go home in the evenings and I just
be watching TV and just kind of, you know, trying
to trying to be okay. And there was one day
that I was just flipping through the channels and I
saw that guy from reading Rainbow, oh, you know, and
I was like, oh hey, and he's like crawling around
in the mud. What's going on here? And then I
started watching and I realized that, like I didn't really
(21:10):
know this was about nineteen ninety one, so Star Trek
the Next Generation had been on the air for several
years at that point, but I guess I didn't really
have I kind of knew that it was a thing,
but I didn't really I'd never seen it, so I was.
Speaker 9 (21:25):
Like, wait a minute, Oh, this is like that new
Star Trek show.
Speaker 8 (21:28):
And then I watched the rest of the episode and
was you know, it was the Enemy was.
Speaker 5 (21:33):
The first one?
Speaker 9 (21:34):
Yeah, ok yeah, so you know, and he's like stuck.
Speaker 8 (21:38):
On learning core with the Romulan and and.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I was just like that, that's the episode that's sung
to you.
Speaker 8 (21:43):
That was yeah, And there was actually a little while
that I sort of didn't see it again.
Speaker 9 (21:48):
I don't know.
Speaker 8 (21:49):
And then the next episode that I watched was Skin
of Evo of all things.
Speaker 9 (21:54):
I know, I know, but but there's something about that.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah I know the names, No I saw it, Okay.
Speaker 8 (22:05):
Yeah, so you know, I get to the end of
this episode and I don't really know these characters, but
I'm crying.
Speaker 9 (22:10):
I'm just like, this is the greatest show I've ever seen.
Speaker 8 (22:13):
And yeah, it was about sort of right around the
point where I was about twelve years old. Okay, Yeah,
and it as I you know, and and and from
then on I was watching it because it was on
five days a week in syndication at that point, and
I was watching it religiously every day.
Speaker 9 (22:31):
I started, you know, recording it on.
Speaker 8 (22:33):
VHS, and it became like my world because all of
a sudden, I had this other place to go, you know,
the Star Trek and and TNG in particular, that group
of people, that crew, like the characters were such a family,
(22:55):
and I mean, I mean and now we know in
retrospect that they the actors themselves were just loved each other,
and obviously that came across. So there was that like
like like I felt like part of the crew, you know,
I felt like.
Speaker 9 (23:12):
Yeah, like like and.
Speaker 8 (23:13):
Then sort of having this having this friend group of
chosen friends, right, that really wasn't the thing growing up, right,
You just were friends with the people that you grew
up with. So it's yeah, like like like in that
chosen family, that idea really really spoke to me. The
scene from the d Space nine episode Far Beyond the
(23:34):
Stars where Benny Russell is looking out the window and
sees the reflection of Ben Cisco, So that particular scene
was chosen that was another commission, and that was chosen
by a gentleman who has become a collector and friend
(23:54):
in San Francisco, who his wife's African American, and he
introduced her to d Phase nine and she connected hugely
with with Cisco and that episode in particular, just that
that moment, and he just thought it was such a
such a kind of evocative moment. And that's that's what
(24:15):
I look for when i'm you know, when I'm wanting.
Speaker 9 (24:18):
To to choose.
Speaker 8 (24:20):
Yeah, like to choose the moment, I either want something
that is like iconic or something that really really kind
of gets across like the feeling of watching it.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
You know this because this is somewhat seriously and I'm
saying this is like a not a Devil's advocate, But
I don't believe what I'm saying. But does painting something
that already has emotion baked in? Is it cheating? Is
it cheating?
Speaker 9 (24:47):
I mean maybe, but I don't I don't care.
Speaker 10 (24:54):
No, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
No, No, I actually think that's a very very compelled
it is.
Speaker 9 (25:00):
It is absolutely.
Speaker 8 (25:01):
I mean, I think for me, the challenge isn't so
much in creating a new feeling it's more about like
working from photos, working from an existing reference. For me,
the challenge in it is to recreate the light, the mood,
(25:25):
the the you know, even down to the fact that
you know that that episode is filmed on it's like
on video, isn't it Like it's not even.
Speaker 9 (25:36):
It's not an HD. Just just those kind of things.
Speaker 8 (25:40):
I'm really interested in light, shadow, the things the camera does.
So for me, what I'm doing and sort of my
my experience and making these paintings for myself has a
lot more to do with h.
Speaker 5 (26:00):
Yeah, like.
Speaker 8 (26:02):
Accurately recreating a moment, and yeah, if it the fact
that these moments have like feeling attached to them, awesome.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Now, we usually deal with celebrities here at no win
scenario because we're that popular, but we did have a
local hero here.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Your friend, Yes, my friend Brown Brian, our friend who
is the head of Independent Film Festival Boston and is
a very very big fan of a movie that I
like to call Dune nineteen eighty four.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
David Lynch's Dune.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Dune nineteen eighty four, which.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Sting recently said was an un is a masterpiece that
people just don't understand. He just literally liked this week
ago or so.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
I don't believe that for a second, but I mean,
I don't like I'm a huge, huge fan of David Lynch,
one of my all time favorite filmmakers. Cried when he died,
totally cried. Not a fan of Doune. That said, I
love Dune. Yes, that said Brian Tam from the Independent
(27:05):
Film Festival Boston and Don have really bonded because they
both love Dune nineteen eighty four, David Lynch Dune, and
we had no then.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
It is the year ten thousand and one on any
one the known universe is rule, but the past driversh
on the fourth go ahead, go ahead. I promised him
I wouldn't do this.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
We had Brian Tam on the show. And even though
I in the edit I cut some of this out.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
It was you haven't edited a second of this.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
I edited the Brian Tam episode.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
That's the one you did.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Yeah, and I did another one too. I don't remember
I've done too. Get out probably, but it was clear
that and I'm not laughing at him, but it was
it was clear that he was very uncomfortable with our
back and forth.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Did not like it.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
No, he did not like it at all, like you
did not like I remember him telling people, well, uh uh.
I was working on a project with him a few
weeks later, and he was like, Trevor, such a sweet guy,
and I never hurt him like this. He was just
so monstrous to his friend. I mean, I couldn't believe it.
And uh yeah, he brings it out and what are
(28:17):
you gonna do?
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Thank you, Brian, Yeah, thank you Brian. We're gonna play
a clip of Brian being uncomfortable, I hope, So move
on Brian's sake, which just move, just go right back up, man.
We'll just move on to Toddy Slayton and our friend
who we discovered and we had now one but two
episodes with Todd. You know, worked on Deep Space Dine.
Gave us a lot of background lore on Far Beyond
the Stars. One of my favorite episodes of Deep Space
(28:40):
Dine and one of the few episodes you actually watched. Ye,
great episode. Let's first hear from him.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Yep, we're doing this.
Speaker 5 (28:47):
I was on the phones that day.
Speaker 10 (28:48):
Now I said something online and I got blasted for it.
We considered Star Trek the Black Star Trek. We had Avery,
we had LeVar directing, We had Michael Door, and we
had we had Brock, we had myself, we had Penny.
I mean, I can just name the whole list. We
had all these stand ins who were black for them.
So it was very afrocentric crew without being like anti
(29:11):
white or pro just afro centric.
Speaker 5 (29:14):
So we would sit around us and me being one.
Speaker 10 (29:16):
Of the younger ones, I was mentored by plenty of
names I could name that you would never know on
the crew who were involved with electrical life anyway.
Speaker 5 (29:25):
So we're outside and right by the door you go with,
I think it's Stage four's right there.
Speaker 10 (29:31):
Then there's my desk or the phone desk, so I
could hear the I have my foot in the door,
you know, everything else. And Avery just comes busting out
and he goes, gentlemen, have.
Speaker 5 (29:40):
A nice weekend. I'm not putting up with us.
Speaker 10 (29:43):
And he leaves and I'm like, what happened? And he
has an assistant. His name is Brian Andrew Tungsta. Brian's
a great guy, amazing makeup artist, and Brian and Avery
were really close, very close.
Speaker 5 (29:56):
He was the closest to Brian.
Speaker 10 (29:58):
So Brian goes and sneaks up and he goes to
Avery's trailer and then Brian comes back and Brian says
to me, he said, oh, mister Beet's going home. I
was like, dude, this is one o'clock. He can't leave that.
We got like and I pull up the list like
this guy like five more scenes. Next thing you know,
mister b pulls up and his black convertible Mercedes. He
got the hot glasses on, he got the suit jacket
(30:19):
and everything on.
Speaker 5 (30:20):
He does Jim has a big d and he rolls off.
He rolls out, and Brian's off.
Speaker 10 (30:27):
Twenty minutes later, ten minutes whatever it was, the door
bust open again.
Speaker 5 (30:30):
It's Steve Oaster. He's panicked.
Speaker 10 (30:32):
He's like, where's where's the yeah co producer and he's like,
where's Avery? And Brian just goes, uh, probably over Texas.
So we are blessing up. So now Brian gets to
go home, right, So Brian, Avery's done, there's no need
for Brian off the fuck. Well, I gotta stay until
we wrapped, So I'm going to say it. So the
next morning I'm standing in for Avery because his stuntman,
(30:57):
who is Brian? Excuse me, John Lindell been at rest
in peace, Johnny. He was doing stunts at the time
on the other show. So that Monday at the stand
in for Avery. So we're at Quarks Bar. God, I'm
gonna get in trouble for this, but I'm gonna go
ahead and say it. And so Avery goes to me
and he would turn and now he's sitting there at
the bar, and he got his tooth picked, and he's
(31:18):
like this with his sides and yeah, look at that residual.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
But finally he's.
Speaker 10 (31:25):
Sitting there with his sides reading and I'm reading with them.
And he goes, so, uh, what happened after I left?
I said they had to rewrite. I said, we were
here till like eleven thirty. He said.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
I said, it was just you know they were they
gonna do. Mister b He looks at me. He said,
this is the part I'm I get in trouble for.
Speaker 10 (31:44):
He said, mister He said, mister Slayton, if they don't
treat you like, sometimes you act like.
Speaker 5 (31:53):
And I turned right back and went back to his thing.
And we never talked about it again. So much to me.
Speaker 10 (32:00):
And I know that's controversial as hell because it doesn't
mean a black thing.
Speaker 5 (32:06):
It means a human thing, power things, power, thing.
Speaker 10 (32:09):
They want to They want to push you around and
push you till you break. And I saw him do it.
I saw him try to do it with him and
he just got tired of it.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
And was it. Do you suspect it was like a
contract negotiation issue.
Speaker 11 (32:21):
Human changing words, talking down, just kind of like people
are tired, you're not showing the proper respect to him,
and he is the you know, you're whoever he's the
show is him, and so he was just fed up.
Speaker 5 (32:35):
There's you know, there was a couple.
Speaker 10 (32:37):
Of times where that happened, and it was just you know,
other actors shining at that time and being bravoed and
constantly bravoed, and you'd being like, Okay, we'll get to
you in a minute, and you're the star of the show.
It gets a little old, you know type of thing,
And I think that's what it was. It wasn't the
N word, it was just the attitude treatment.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
And then of course Todd in some of his friends
and we had a nice little Red Deep Space nine
reunion that was so nice to hear. And you know
what I like about our podcast, if I'm serious, is
that we spend enough time with our guests. There's enough
time for them to like open up and tell us
about you know, not just what they worked on, what
they're known for, but what it's like working and the
challenges they've had.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
And sometimes they get down to the bitter truth too, and.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
They get the better truth, like we know from this season.
But you know, Todd was great. Kathy was so interesting
with the murder mark. But really Robin like seeing you know,
her former colleagues and her friends and seeing how meaningful
that interaction was with her was I thought a really
great way to end last season. Let's take a listen.
Speaker 6 (33:42):
I've been I've been diagnosed with Parkinson, So I am
very emotional anyway, because I have a I appreciate every
single day and I appreciate every friend that I have
that cares about me.
Speaker 5 (33:54):
I appreciate what Star Trek did to me.
Speaker 6 (33:56):
And I'm doing really well.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
I mean, I.
Speaker 6 (33:59):
Feel great, and I feel like I have a lot
of life and stories ahead of me. But I I
know that what this time in my life was a
Star Trek was was special and I'll never forget it
no matter how hard things get. With your mom with
cancer and with the you know, Kathy who had just
(34:19):
had back surgery and recovered, and Mark are just being crazy.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
I just had grainy old rectal extraction surgery.
Speaker 5 (34:27):
Because they're doing things like those. You know, we will talk.
Speaker 6 (34:31):
Kathy and I have always got back together after several years,
and now we've been you know, we had a pajama
party last weekend, just you know, watching the documentaries and
eating food.
Speaker 5 (34:46):
It's so good. Just don't even think about it. Brother,
slumber party of my house.
Speaker 6 (34:55):
I think it's brought us all back together a little
bit doing podcast and I thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
And that was it. That was the end of season two.
I'm glad we're here in season three. Where are you looking?
You're looking? That's your camera over there, Trevor. For those
people listening, we.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Can find I'm looking at the center.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Came the Wide Shop. But yeah, but if you want
us to talk to the audience, you talk to the
audience right there. Man, No, you just want to look dead.
What a horrible way to come out of Robin's bit.
Oh my god, Our Shades of Gray episode is nearly dofty.
Shades Our Shades of Gray season two. I just dawned
on me this is season three, but we're recapping season two,
(35:35):
which aligns perfectly with Next generations.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Nobody cares.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Nobody cares.
Speaker 5 (35:39):
I call that. Well.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
On that note, I guess we'll just see in the
next episode, Trevor.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
See in the next episode looking in the right camera.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Now, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Apple Breaker, Audible, find us on YouTube, TikTok,
all that.
Speaker 5 (35:57):
Fun, Instagram.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Instagram is still there.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
You're sill on Instagram? All right bye. In today's world,
mental health is everyone's concern. If you are someone you
know is in crisis, please use these resources. For US listeners,
call one eight hundred nine five zero six two sixty
four or text helpline all one word h E L
(36:23):
P l I N E to six two six four zero,
or email helpline at NAMY dot org. That's n A
m I dot org. For our international listeners, please visit
suicide Stop dot com. That's s U I c I
D E S t O P dot com.
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