February 1, 2023 • 48 mins
HBO's The Last of Us is an adaptation of the award-winning video game from 2013 that allowed the players to explore the infection-ravaged United States while playing as the two leads Joel and Ellie who are tasked with getting Ellie to the safe zone as she may carry the key to their survival.
Join The Kulturecast's Chris Stachiw and Game of Bros' Yashar Pirasteh as they talk all about episode three "Long, Long Time". It's an episode of the show that's receiving rave reviews and deservedly so; few characters ever get a happy ending in post-apocalyptic media.
For more episodes of Of Mushrooms & Men along with many more podcasts that are guaranteed to be your new favorite audio obsession, check out Weirding Way Media at weirdingwaymedia.com.
Join The Kulturecast's Chris Stachiw and Game of Bros' Yashar Pirasteh as they talk all about episode three "Long, Long Time". It's an episode of the show that's receiving rave reviews and deservedly so; few characters ever get a happy ending in post-apocalyptic media.
For more episodes of Of Mushrooms & Men along with many more podcasts that are guaranteed to be your new favorite audio obsession, check out Weirding Way Media at weirdingwaymedia.com.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
We're media hell, every one,and welcome to of Mushrooms and Men,
(00:40):
a Last of Us podcast. Iam one of your hosts, Chris dash
you the host of the Culture Cast, and I'm joined by my good friend.
He is one of the hosts ofGame of Bros. House of Dragons,
another show where we talk about HBOt EV, your friend and mine
your shar is that the moment liquor? I don't remember what that is because
apparently this is a completely different show. Now we're talking about the third episode
(01:00):
and the Last of Us. Ohmy god, it's well, it's it's
it's quite possibly the gayest hour oftelevision you've ever seen on a network show.
The episode is titled Long, LongTime. It's written by Peter excuse
me, It's directed by Peter Whoreand written by Craig Mason, and it
well, I would say it starsPedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey, but not
(01:21):
really. This episode is more focusedon Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlett as Bill
and Frank, two men who findone another on the edge of a pandemic,
and we'll just go from there.We're gonna be talking spoilers. I
think if you've watched this show.If you're kind of in tune with the
press surrounding the show, everybody hasgone ape shit for this episode, like
hardcore people love it. Yeah,so I'm going to kick it to you,
(01:44):
Yeshar, What did you? Whatdid you think of the episode?
First off, do you see WhiteLotus Season one? I have not,
because Murray Bartlett is the absolute MVPof this And one thing I learned listen
to an interview with Oh wait wait, you asked if I seen White Lotus.
Yeah, I've seen one. IKate watched one of the Kate watched
the show, and I saw himin the show a little bit. Okay,
(02:07):
He's just he's unbelievable, Like thisdude should be in everything. But
I found out he was actually castin this prior to Whiteloaded season one coming
out, so it's just a happycoincidence. But like, yeah, anyways,
I think we're gonna seeing a lotmore of him because he's quite the
performance. Not in this show though, not in this show, We're not
gonna be seeing a single more momentof him. I met um. Yeah,
(02:30):
So well, last week we talkedabout are we going to get a
cold open every episode? So wedid it in this episode, but we
did get a flash back, solike it the whole episode's kind of all
open, frankly, like they've hada flashback in every episode now. So
and we did see Anatworv's test centerbecause we had said, you know,
we it seemed unlikely we would eversee her again in the whole season.
(02:52):
So it's nice, you know thatshe's still getting checks um. Yeah,
so this probably diverges from the gamemore so than anything we've seen so far.
So we have Bill, who's likea survivalist kind of prepper Second Amendment
dude who probably doesn't have a lotof friends, and he's well equipped to
survive a situation like this. Andactually, I have thought myself it would
(03:15):
be good to know a couple ofsurvivalists in case, shit it's the fan.
You never know, Like I'm notbeing facetious, like I've generally had
this thought. And so he's likeliving this life of solitude and I don't
want to say happiness, but he'scontent and just watching zombies are infected to
get killed. And you know it'sa weird little Tom Zombies. Stop calling
(03:37):
him zombies. This isn't a zombieshow. Okay, it looks like a
zombie show. It sounds like azombie show. Yeah, it's not a
zombie show. We promise, signedCraig Mason and Neil Druckman, and so
like, obviously he comes across thisthis stranger Murray Bartlett's Frank, and uh,
you know, they fall in loveand live together for a really long
(03:59):
time, like sixteen years, right, yeah, because it's four years in
and then it's it's four years inis when he meets him, and then
it's another sixteen years because they're effectivelyThe way the episode ends is like it's
been like maybe a couple of weekstype thing, like they it's not made
clear how long it takes for Joeland Bella to get to them and fine
(04:20):
and effectively find them, but they'retogether a long time. You know.
This reminded me a lot of Gameof Thrones once again, like we can't
stay in one place too long,but here it works, I think to
tell their story. But I'm gonnabe honest with you, and this is
my issue with this episode. Thisshow hasn't earned this fucking episode yet.
(04:43):
We're in the third episode of theshow and this is where you're going like,
come on, guys, you haven'tearned this yet. You watched West
World, right, you watched throughthe second season to the show you know
what episode this reminded me of.This reminded me of the Kicksuya episode from
the second season, and that show, as much as you may not like
it, it earned that episode.It's set up all the disparate pieces and
(05:03):
brought them together here. I appreciatethe story that they're telling, it's a
great story, but why can't youmake me care about Joel and Ellie as
much as I cared about these twocharacters? Why? I think it's it's
hard for me to kind of separatethat because the narrative so far that I've
been watching I'm not super invested in. But I would have watched an entire
(05:24):
show of just them, And that'sa problem for a show that's expecting me
to now continue on with my othercharacters that were in this episode for ten
minutes total. Well, I thinkwe have a couple of things that show
opens with, like a discussion ontests, right, that's the discussion about
tests, and Joel kind of doesa little like a memorial towards her,
(05:45):
and you could just look at itand say like, oh, what's this
disparate thing? But it's actually veryrelated because it's the story of a person
who he thinks life is almost likejust a thing to pass through. Sure,
and you realize it's like worth livingfor someone else. Yeah, Yeah,
it's yeah, they're trying to Yeah, between Bill and I get it,
And like Joe, show hasn't earnedit yet. It hasn't earned this,
(06:08):
It hasn't earned this emotional moment thatit's trying to show us because we
don't care about the characters from theshow proper yet, Like what what have
they given us to really hang ahat on? With Joel and Ellie?
That's clear, we're clearly going there. Their relationship is building. But I
feel like you're showing me right hereand now that you can write compelling characters.
(06:30):
So why are you This should havebeen like end of the end of
the first season, maybe even Iwas talking to Father Malone about this,
maybe even the first episode of thesecond season. But it's just like you're
you're really giving us a lot hereto unpack, which I appreciate, but
your main characters are sidelined already,and you've told a more compelling story without
them. That is kind of aproblem. Even if we liked this episode,
(06:53):
it is kind of a problem thisearly in the show. I don't
know if I agree with you.I think that I mean, again,
this is this is purely subjective mind. There's nothing again, this is a
story. This is how I perceivea way to tell the story should go.
Because I would love to have writtenthis episode, but I personally would
not have put it third in yourseason because there needs to be time with
(07:16):
Ellie and Joel to grow as characters. Because again, if it feels like
they already know that we should knowthese characters, like we're video game players,
and the problem is the assumption forthis show is that most people aren't.
Or who is the again, whois the audience? Because if you're
a video game player, I don'tneed to flesh out Joel and Ellie because
(07:38):
you know what their relationship is.But if I'm not, you really need
to give us like a bunch ofscenes with them getting to know one another.
And I know that it's going todo it over the entire run of
the show, but they've just shownthat they don't have to do that.
They can just have two characters sittingin a scene together and give us beautifully
written dialogue that gives us a windowinto these characters lives like we haven't gotten
(08:00):
with anybody else. It's kind ofa problems. It works as a good
inflection point because right now we knowJoel struggles to let people in, right
right, oh yeah, and weas an audience need to understand how someone
like that could be convinced to letsomeone in. And Bill and Joel are
(08:20):
like one and the same, andwe see that in the scene with him
in tests and Frank, where Joel'sbasically like, I see what you're doing.
You're a protector like me, youknow, that's really all we can
do. But if you really wantto protect, like you can't do it
on your own. And Bill softensand sees like the love that Joel has
her tests at that point, andthat's kind of like after Joel's already failed
(08:41):
his daughter, right right, Andso then he has tests and then he
I don't think he actually fails tests, but he believes he's failed her now
and so all he has left isEllie And from that point on, that's
that's the inflection point. You cankind of see when he's reading the letter
where he's like, shit, likethis can't just be about me anymore,
and I think we're now it's setthe stage where we're going to see him
(09:03):
sort of soften and become closer.And to your point, if we have
only seen Joel and Ellie interaction inthe context that they had so far and
this was like, let's say,the last episode of the season, I
think I would agree with you.But because there's actually a lot of runway
for the impact of this to playout, and it will play out,
I could feel pretty completing, itwill play out, it will pay off.
And then separately and then he saidlike, well, why is this
(09:24):
happening now? It is generally followinglike the story of the game, which
someone could argue like, doesn't meanit has to, but about this point
in the game they do interact withit is different. So they actually interact
with Bill's I could think some gamespoilers, so it's similar thing. They
go to find Bill, who workswith Joel, and like the QZ,
he and Frank were lovers. Likethat's all true, you don't really meet
(09:48):
Frank. Frank's actually dead. Bythe time you run into Bill, he's
hung himself. Because it's been infected, and actually he's left Bill because Bill's
too much like a prepper, likenarrow rigid survivalists, and he basically resents
him and says like I hate yourguts and leads, and that's how he
gets infected. And so Bill doesn'tdie either, he's just completely alone.
But he's completely alone by the endof your interaction with him, which you
(10:11):
know some could argue is worse thandeath. And in the interview list with
Neil Druckman, he said one ofthe reasons they thought this change made sense
was in the context of a game, you couldn't just have like an hour
cut scene of like Bill and Frankand like no action. You have to
be doing something. You have tobuild around it, which is why goals
like working with this. But inthe country of the show you have a
little bit more flexibility, so youstill have this like Bill and Frank dynamic,
(10:35):
but we get to see a plannedon screen. And I would argue,
even though Bill dies in this version, he probably has a happier ending
than he has in the game.I get to be the masters of their
own fate, which you don't everreally see in this kind of media.
In post apocalyptic media, most ofthe time, it's you know, We're
sitting in a corner together and I'vegot a gun and I shoot you in
the head and I shoot myself inthe head and that's it. You know.
(10:58):
I know, Sean of the Deadtrafficked in that up until the end
of the movie where it kind ofinjector seats itself. All these post apocalyptic
things tend to put characters in thatscenario and then either they die or the
last you know, the thirteenth hour, they get saved. I appreciate that
this story goes no, we're gonnaset the limits. The characters know their
(11:18):
own limitations and what they want outof this relationship and who they expect to
be and who they want to be. And I like that. It only
makes sense that Bill and Frank endup together in bed dead, like it
just it makes sense because and they'reold, and it felt like they're like
like Frank says like Bill says likeI'm old, Like like I lived a
(11:39):
good life, like I don't needanything else, And I think I just
I have a hard time with thisepisode because this show hasn't shown me that
it deserves an episode this good yet. Do you know what I mean,
do you know what I mean?Though, Like again, just take a
step back from the show and assumethat the show will not stumble and it
(12:00):
will be a show worth watching fora second season. Not by the end
of it us going, man,I will stick around because I've seen the
first season, but that the showwill land the first season. It'll get
to that point, just like itdid with Game of Thrones, House of
the Dragon, a show that neitherone of us were fucking interested in watching.
By the end of it, youand I were like, fuck,
I am on board with whatever youthrow at us second season. I'm not
(12:22):
sure I'm gonna get there with thisshow the way it's going so far,
because because I don't understand what thenarrative is, and I think that goes
to what you were talking about already. With the cold opens, the show
feels like it wants to tell thewhole story of the world and Joel and
Ellie's place in it, which isfine, But Joel and Ellie just they
(12:43):
haven't seemed as much of a presencein their own show yet as I was
expecting them to be, given thatthey're literally the main characters of the narrative
in the video game. Does thatmake sense? And again, maybe this
is just a third episode gripe,but I would have expected in this third
episode we'd continue to see Joel andEllie's character being built out, not them
going, oh, we're taking asidestep to these other characters that you've never
(13:05):
met before. Because again, Iappreciate that they had a good idea.
I watched the after episode like youdid, and Neil Druckman and Craig Mason
were like, if you have agreat idea, maybe you can pivot for
an episode. And it's like,yeah, you can. It's not your
third episode, because again, thisepisode theoretically may have been sent to people
watching it early, Like if they'rewatching this early and this is the first
(13:26):
three episodes, by the end ofthis episode, you're just like, all
right, so are they now gettingto the adventure part of this show?
But I guess is the show likeit almost adds more questions for me for
what the show is trying to bethan it answers. But I also think,
like, just go along for theride, Like I feel like you
want the answer now. No,I don't want. I want there to
be coherent storytelling about the main charactersof your show that you keep showing me
(13:50):
are the main characters. I wouldrather watch a Bill and Frank's show at
this point, and that's after oneepisode. But it is coherent, Like
you have a person who was closedoff one and nothing opened up, had
like a beautiful love story, rightand then and then you have Joel,
Who's I mean who Like it's clearlyan analog to Bill, and he's a
lot except the difference is Bill hasnever had anything Joel at one point did.
(14:13):
And we actually did spend a lotof time with Joel and episode one,
if you remember, he just wasin a different time period. But
all of the things that we sawin this episode were for our benefit,
not for the characters. Joel doesn'tknow about Bill and Frank and any of
the things that they've gone through,and he's read again, we're assuming that
by Bella or Bella Ramsey, JesusChrist, by Ellie reading that note to
(14:35):
Joel, he'll go, oh mygod, I've had this epiphany, and
like that is how that works inthe context of this kind of narrative,
because yeah, it's a show,but in real life, in the thing
they're trying to emulate, it's justit's a little hinky. It just kind
of is because like they could haveshown us Joel and Ellie's relationship growing without
(14:56):
having to give us an analog,Like what's the point of giving us an
analog this early in the I getit, but like just show us them
coming to that realization, not throughthe eyes of someone else who they're not
seeing other than one time you Joelstarts though, to get that messaging from
Tess before she dies, right likethe hoop, Like it's not like it
comes from nowhere. And you dosee Joel soft thing a little bit,
(15:16):
like he's like explaining the history ofthe world to Ellie and about planes and
talking, and he even wants toshield her from like the field of dead
bodies, which is horrifying that webarely even get to sit with that in
the show. Yeah, is thatfrom the game? Do they talk about
the government just like killing healthy people, because like that feels that feels like
(15:37):
a real drastic step that the showtakes. I mean, it is basically
what they do to his daughter rightin the first episode, and that is
from the game. So maybe it'snot like as explicas they were just going
down like like fields and fields ofpeople honestly don't remember if that is.
But and they kind of talk aboutHe's like when Franklin Bill in that one
sceneor haven't having a argument like doyou think the government or na see,
(15:58):
He's like, they are Nazis andthen think frank says, well, now
they are, but they weren't backthen, and I thought that was like
quite a funny dialogue. But doessay like, but they are Nazis,
right, Like, yeah, nownow he thought, but U and are
we being led to believe again,not having not played a lot of the
video game? Are we led tobelieve in the context of the narrative of
(16:18):
the show that because in the inthe game the government is what? What
is the government by twenty twenty three? I mean it's it's kind of like
Feder Like it's unclear if there's likea president or anything like that. I'm
sure there's some sort of centralized power, but it does seem you have almost
like these like the q zs aresort of self managed by parts of FEDER
but Feder like is federal. Um, they don't get into like super about
(16:42):
the politics. Basically, it's likethe tradeoff is you get some stability,
safety, for like, you know, as long as occasionally oppressive regimes and
like they will ice you if likeyou you know, give any lips,
so um we make it. I'dbe interesting if we get more of that,
because we haven't got a lot ofthe fireflies either, and we gets
(17:02):
around the fireflies in the game.So I wonder if you'll get to see
a bit of that political context.I don't think it's necessary, but it
could add a little bit of worldbuilding, like even if we've got like
a cold open with Fedra, Ithink could be cool kind of see like
what's going on in their mind,because as we saw with that original guard
that Joel killed, like they're someof them are just kind of normal people
trying to you know, survive anddo their own thing too. So it
(17:26):
is interesting. I do wonder.I do well. I do wonder because
again, I mean we have thisin the show is taking its own direction
obviously. I mean, like yousaid, with this episode, it has
changed the narrative for one of thecharacters completely. You know. The end
point is this is similar. It'squite with Joel and Ellie like in a
car, but like all the otherstuff is completely concocted for the show,
(17:48):
it's not in the game, evenif it's kind of hinted at, right,
it's hinted at in the game thatthey had Bill and Frank kind of
life together. Blah blah blah blahblah. The show shows it, which
I again I think is very smart. But it's just gonna go down as
a really good episode of this show. And I wonder if the show will
be as good as this episode is. And that's always a concern because I
mean, second episode, second seasonA. West World has one of the
(18:10):
best episodes of television I've ever seen. And you don't like that season A
west World and you don't like butyou don't like that season of west World
at all. And see that's mypoint. It's like, how how do
you reconcile the two. It's agreat episode of a show, but the
fucking show stinks. So what doesthat mean? Does the episode then suffer
(18:30):
because of the context that it's placedin. Could it have look at something
like Giermo de Torres cabinet curiosities?Right, no through line between any of
the episodes. It's a standalone episode, standalone narrative. You could have taken
this script and done it. Therejust as easily, just as easily.
Again, it's just you're telling astory taking place during a zombie apocalypse.
Doesn't have to be the Clickers,It don't even have. We never even
(18:52):
see them interacting with the infected.They interact with humans more than they interact
with the infected. You see afew of them, like hit is scrap
but right, but like they're notThey're not into the wall, they're not
into their house. They're not havinga fight with the Clickers or the anything.
So it could be in any postapocalyptic setting that you want. They're
(19:12):
telling this beautiful love story, butit has no bearing on the narrative.
And so yeah, you could takethis episode. I mean, what what
do Ellie and Joel get by theend of the end the end of episode?
A car? That's right, Theyget the car, and they get
the guns and yeah, yeah,Ellie gets a gun, and then you
know, Joel, I think itstarts to click into place, like right
(19:33):
that Ellie is his penance, hischance to like he's messed up not once
but twice, his daughter Tess,and like if he's really a protector like
Bill was. Bill was there tothe end, gave everything and Joel saw
himself and Bill just as much asBill saw himself and Joel, like they
had an uneasy friendship, kind ofpiss each other off, says he wasn't
(19:53):
his friend. He's like, Idon't like you, but you're my friend.
Maybe. Yeah, He's like,Okay, this is my chance to
you know, do what Bill did, but I've not been able to successfully
do myself. And yeah, Imean, what did you think about just
like the way they showed them overthe years, and like especially I think
(20:14):
the coolest well is sad the transitionbetween young Frank and old Bill and like
how that changed after the last timeJoe. So all of my kind of
issues with the episode aside in thescheme of this narrative that they're telling what
the show Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlettare fucking amazing they're turning in performance.
Is that again like the show doesn'tdeserve in a way, It's like they
(20:37):
don't even like they don't deserve tobe associated with the show because of how
good of the performances are, becauseof how good the writing is and how
believable they are. I mean,look, Nick Offerman, is this straight,
straight, straight, straight, notgay at all? And you know
what, I would not have knownthat it's beyond convincing. The two of
them work together. It doesn't feellike a put on. It doesn't feel
(21:00):
like this is somehow a forced gayrelationship, or that there's a kind of
disparity and power between the two.There's none of that. It feels really
like a genuine relationship. And Ithink for me, as someone who's gay,
I really appreciate that this is onfucking network television. We're showing a
genuine gay relationship between two male oldermen. When do you ever see that?
(21:25):
Tell me the last time you sawtwo gay men in their late fifties
early sixties on screen together? Likenot in like a season two. Okay,
haven't watched it, so there yougo. But my point is like
most of the time it's often playedfor laughs or it's an older guy and
a younger guy and oh and thatweird. But like this is just it's
played so straight as ironically, likeno pun pun or pun intended. But
(21:48):
it's played so straight with just asincerity to it that is shocking. It's
so sincere, right, Like,do you think it's the most BPK you've
ever seen? Beard per kiss somuch chest hair and kissing and beards and
so much beard. I like,I just love how uncomfortable nick Offerman looks,
(22:11):
because it's it's, oh yeah,if you if you read anything,
or listen to the audio podcast ordo any amount of inquiring on the episode
afterwards, nick Offerman was about asuncomfortable as humanly possible doing any of this.
But I think it really adds towhat we're seeing, which is a
man not okay with himself learning tobe okay with himself. Like yeah,
(22:33):
because Bill himself is like closeted anduncomfortable, and I guess I guess he's
closeted. I mean, I don'tnot to say closet is like no one
knew. It's like it seems likehe's just never maybe even been with anyone
or like never even ride like sowho knows if it's uses like embarrassed about
like being found out, or justhe just didn't feel fun of putting himself
(22:53):
out there because he's afraid of projection. And it was like counter to like
he was clearly like a very typeof person who probably wouldn't generally be LGBTQ
friendly. They would not he mightbe a conservative homosexual, but he's not
invited to the conservative table. No, yeah, yeah, so which I
(23:15):
think. I mean, again,they don't really you know what's more surprising,
they don't really like beach over thehead with that, which I felt
like could have been like a beachover the head moment where it's like,
oh, he's kind of like aprepper but he's also gay, Like isn't
that weird? And it's like,I'm glad you're not bringing attention to it
in a way that like it's justindependent things. He's a prepper and he's
also gay. Yeah, And hemeets this guy and he falls in love
(23:38):
with him and they have like aI mean, probably as good of a
run as you can have in thisenvironment. Like honestly, I think they
were living a normal life for fuckingalmost twenty years, like, and they
did have friends like like Joel andTested and like hang out, and I'm
sure they there's other people in theyears intervening too. And so it's like,
(24:00):
yeah, we only saw like fivemoments of a twenty years span.
You know, we have to asaudience members, we fill in those gaps
with all the things they must havebeen doing. And because like you said,
by the end of it, bythat moment where you've gone about as
far forward as we can go,which is effectively catching up to the live
narrative, we see Bill and Frank, and I guess Frank must have MS
(24:22):
or Parkinson's or something, a terminalillness that cannot be fixed. The creators
said, like, it didn't reallymatter what it was. It doesn't matter.
But yet when he says they couldn'tsolve it when we were on the
beginning of the pandemic part of this, don't expect anybody's going to solve it
now that they've got other things toworry about, you kind of get what
they're getting at. I again,I appreciate where the narrative goes, because
(24:45):
those last couple scenes together are notsad. I don't think the word I
would use as sad. They're kindof bittersweet. I mean again, you
see these two men at the endof their lives kind of willingly accepting what's
happening, and in a way,like we kind of said before, they
get to be the architects of theirown conclusion, which in these narratives that's
not a thing. They're normally lyingblooding dead or infected having to you know,
(25:08):
he's not your husband anymore like that, you know, I mean,
where where's that scene? Like I'mI'm glad we don't get it? Because
fuck that, Like that shits soplayed out at this point, Like I
don't want to character have to makea decision to kill his significant other.
Like that's not that's not pleasant foranyone to watch. I mean we we
all sort of had it. Whenthey're invaded by the raiders and Bill shot
(25:30):
and he's like going through all hisyou know, his planning. He's like,
oh, you know, here's wherethe keys are and here's the notes,
and called Joel and in that momentsays like, oh, he really
does trust Joel, Like he thinksthat's the person who can save Frank,
and you know, he goes allthese things and that's like where their roles
are reversed and Frank is what whosaves him and takes care of him and
(25:51):
brings him back to life. AndI think it kind of emphasizes how despite
being very different kinds of people,they work. Would they have worked outside
of this context of like the worldending. Maybe maybe not, but I'd
like to believe that it could haveworked and like it was like it was
just a real relationship, like theyou know, he's like the little thing
(26:11):
like Frank was just the light thatBill wasn't but right, it was just
a joy to watch, like whenhe went to the when when the Bill
takes Frank to the strawberry patch,that was a genuine that was a genuine
moment. And then and it wasat that point they've been together a while,
right, like like they know eachother, like it's that it's not
(26:32):
a new love. It's like Iknow you, like I see you.
There's like like we don't have tobullshit and you know, he's like how
did you get the seas like atrade with Joey's like what did you trade?
He's like, okay, a littleone, but it's just like what
are those things where Earlier the restof that would probably set off when he's
like I get it, like I'llgive up this thing to my partner because
I know it makes him happy.And then he embraces with his partner and
(26:52):
eats the strawberry and he's like,oh yeah, this is beautiful. That
laughs that Nick Offerman gives felt it'sit feels real, like that whole scene
feels real. Anytime they're together,it feels real. And the casting,
I mean, you gotta give creditto the casting. I've seen Nick Offerman
in all of nothing. You youhave to understand that, no, oh,
not a Parks and Rex fan.I don't like cringe humor. That
stuff. Cringe humor is not funnyto me. I can't laugh at it
(27:15):
because, like, it's just I'vewatched The Office and I know that that's
not that's not something that motivates mein the world a comedy, and I
know Parks and Rec is very muchin the same vein. So let's let's
cringe humor. But but definitely likebut if you don't like The Office,
you're probably not gonna like Parks.And also, I'm not going to watch
something that has Chris Pratt in it, regardless of what era Chris Pratt it
(27:36):
was, because he's just wo bics. Okay, all right, Chris,
we get it. You're literally acomplete shill at this point. I mean,
he is, he is. I'mnot being mean. Why are you
cast as? Mario pal Like,what do you bring to the table?
I loved? Let me check mynotes Mario on the what was that Nintendo
is that what it's called? Like, come on, bro, I mean,
we're all gonna see it. I'mgonna see it, but not for
(27:59):
Chris Pratt, And frankly, I'mgonna see it in spite of Chris Pratt
being in it, which I feellike is most people speaking of video game
adaptations, Why isn't he in this? Just walks on the screen and get
sh okay bye. There's another thingwe haven't talked about. You like,
we spent a lot of time withthis, we still haven't really spent much
time with Tommy as well, seenhim at all the first episode well I've
(28:21):
seen him at all. I meanwe haven't seen him at all in the
present pleasant yet I've narrated so interestedto see his dynamic mesh with Joel and
Ellie as well. But I thinkto your complaint or it's it's just it's
just an observation. I think ifit was the end of the season and
we never got the time with Joeland Ellie, I think it would be
(28:42):
valid. I think because there's stilla lot of time for it to breathe.
I'm I hope I'm less compelled byit, but yet, But you
understand where I'm coming from though,right, like, this is a big
moment that the show is showing off, and it's a moment that the writers
of the show worked really hard onand they want us to walk away from
(29:06):
this episode with an emotional impact thatstays with us, and I just feel
like putting it here kind of getsin the way of the bigger story at
hand, which is Joel and Ellie'srelationship. Because again, if you've played
the video game, you know whatJoel is willing to sacrifice for Ellie.
It's not a fucking surprise, andI would have liked the narrative to get
(29:27):
there on its own without having itgo well, there are other people who
are doing it, so why don'tyou get it? It's like, you
know what I mean, Like weI don't know. Back to the point
of Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlett.Nick Offerman, who I've seen in nothing,
I don't know any of his comedicwhatever stylings. He is fantastic in
this episode. Yeah, it's justit believable beyond words. And again as
(29:49):
someone who's a heterosexual man playing agay character who went out of his way
to speak with other gay men aboutthat relationship and what that would mean to
see that on screen. I appreciatethat because that shows a level of foresight
on Nickofferman's part and most actors.I mean, I'm not saying most actors
aren't going to do that, butthat takes a special kind of actor to
(30:10):
say I want to do this rightbecause I know people are going to take
an issue with it if it's notrealistic. Doesn't have to be perfect,
but it needs to be realistic.Yeah, And I mean Murray Bartlett is
a gay man and he's one actualgame in Yeah, he's Australian, pretty
good American accent, very believable Americanaccent. And so I think, like
(30:33):
I think Neil Druckman was saying,like he kind of helped guide some of
the interactions and way they conversed andthings like that, So it did feel
It's felt very real, and Imean that's acting right, Like yeah,
like Nickafferman was literally like playing someoneas far removed from himself. Well,
he's into carpentry and stuff, somaybe I mean, you know, he
(30:56):
still likes to build things, soyeah, but yeah, so and I
think in a show like this,in which we're probably going to have a
lot of dark times. It's nicethat these little moments of optimism and hope
remind us that it's not just anoppressive moment to moment survival, Like there
is something to live for and somethingmore than just losing to the next day,
(31:18):
right, And I think that's whatAnd yes, it's maybe beating us
a little heart of a head,but Joel's finding out that Ellie is that.
And even Ellie is treating Joel alittle differently, Like she comes out
and says, like, you know, the Test thing, it's it's almost
like from a place of defensiveness,like, oh, I'm not going to
apologize for test because you guys madethe decisions. Don't blame me. But
obviously she feels bad about that situation. Maybe she's even scared that Joel will
(31:41):
resent her. But then she's alsolike becoming more comfortable when she starts making
jokes with him and like picking athim and being an annoying kid. And
that's actually straight out of the game, where like Ellie is so curious because
she's never seen these things before,and she's almost like, yeah, she's
reckless because like, yeah, shedoes about the effective, but she's never
really had to deal with them.And maybe she's been a little like,
I don't know, more like Joelthan she thinks, like when we see
(32:02):
her in the arena where she Okay, what's up with that? What?
What do you think? Why doyou think there's a scene when Joel first
goes into the warehouse however, toget his supplies Ellie. Also, they
didn't clear the rooms, which Ifound a little weird, like the first
thing I would do is clear therooms. But anyway, um, Ellie
(32:22):
goes into this little section that Joel'snot in and there's a like a scrap
essentially infected, and she goes upto it, and you know, we've
all been there with bugs and stuff, and that kind of curiously prods it
and then she stabs it like verylike viciously. And I was thinking,
I was like, is this becauseI think there's two ways you could initially
(32:43):
think of that. There's is ither almost doing out of compassion, like
you know, this is a horribleexistence, Um, I don't want to
leave them here. But then Ithink you see her face and it's almost
some more like anger and vindictive,Like it's anger. I mean, it's
it's it's anger. Yeah, it'sa dark and I think it's something that's
maybe supposed to show us that muchlike Joel has a darkness for different reasons,
(33:07):
like they might be more similar inspirit than either of them would acknowledge.
Whereas Ellie probably would never say she'sas rough as Joel, and Joel
would never say like he has likea soft discarc curiosity like Ellie does.
But I think they both have alittle bit of each other, much like
Bill and Frank, right right.And I think that that scenes interesting with
Ellie and the and the infected becausebut again, like like you just said,
(33:29):
like to what end, right,I reserve judgment because again I don't
know if they're going to expound uponit in further episodes and kind of give
us because like you said, Imean we even though I've never played all
the way through the game, Iknow the depths to which the narrative kind
of delves into serious brutal consequences foryour actions, Like I know some of
(33:52):
the beats to the story, andthe character of Ellie is not this precocious
child in the second game at all. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah,
I'm not sure if they're again Idon't right right, an adult and
like a full adult. Right inthe second game, she's a She's not
she's not this character anymore. Sowe don't know to what ends the show
(34:13):
embraces that portion of the game andthat are we seeing that already? I
don't know. Or is it justor is it just showing us that there's
more to her than is externally,Like I think there's a few different ways.
It doesn't necessarily have to be likeshe does this now she's just killing
random people because she's secretly like asociopath or whatever. Like, I don't
think the show needs to do that. It could, that could be a
(34:34):
route that goes, but I thinkit's I think it's more to just kind
of fletch out the edges. Butyeah, we'll see, we'll see if
if this through line goes anywhere.But it's interesting because again, like you
said, I mean I could seeit as oh, poor thing, you
know, trapped, let me killit, but not not not the not
the role. Not That was notthe sense I was getting from what Bella
Ramsey was doing, not her facialexpressions and like the way she was it
(34:59):
was it wasn't like a fear orsadness. It was like I don't enjoy
is maybe too far, but somethingcloser to that. She was not not
enjoying killing that thing, you know. And again, I mean, maybe
it's just as much as like,I've spent the fourteen years of my life
running away from these things and havingmy life and up ended by them,
and now I get the opportunity tostab one. But I don't think it
(35:22):
was that either. Again, knowingwhat I know about the narrative and the
where it goes in the video game, it would be safe to say this
is a thing that they're going tohave to address again. If not,
you know, almost immediately, becausewho knows. Again, I know where
the game goes. The show probablyis going the same direction, but it
has shown it's willing to just throwout what you think you know and replace
(35:44):
it with something. In this caseof this episode a lot better because this
is better than the than the videogame's handling of Bill, right, It's
better because it's more interesting. It'sit's more interesting from like a viewer's perspective.
I think give us that. Imean, you could have done the
other way, and that would havebeen a lot more just kind of traditional
action a zombie show. Yeah,and yeah, I don't see like even
(36:07):
video game purists really having a problemwith this, because, like I said,
from like an overarching narrative standpoint,still gets them basically to the same
place, like they're following in thesame route. It's just now you understand
a bit more about other people inthis world. And that's something you don't
get in the game because when you'replaying a video game, like you're the
character, you're who you're playing thisthird point of view, either playing this
(36:27):
Joel or Elliot, like I mean, because otherwise what are you doing?
But a show gives you that flexibility, and I do like that they're taking
full advantage of it. I'm interestingto see if they're going to do more
of these kind of side stories orfleshing out a characters whom we haven't spent
a lot of time with. Onecomes to mind that I'm now that I'm
thinking like a potential antagonist later on. I'm thinking I wouldn't be surprised if
(36:51):
we get some like flashback time withthem, and I think I think you'll
enjoy it if it's what I'm Ifwhat I'm thinking is going to happen,
I don't want to get to spoilersjust because once again, like since I
think they're gonna fall the natter prettyclosely. Yeah, anything I say is
essentially a spoiler that happened. Yeah, but there's there's there's a lot of
interesting characters upcoming well, and evenlike you said, I mean this episode,
(37:13):
they effectively get to the same place. Like Bill, the character is
in a different place, but youdon't come back to Bill in the video
game, so he could be himbeing alive or dead is kind of unimportant
to you as a game player,and realistically as a viewer were I might
come back to this, but whogives a shit? Like what what is
(37:34):
the point of coming back here?You've said everything I feel like you needed
to say or wanted to say,and you left it on a pretty poignant
moment of looking out the window,which is effectively just them showing the video
games opening title screen. I'm sureyou realize that, but that's all that
I mean, like it, butit works here, and like what else
is there to say there? Andeven honestly, even in a lot of
(37:55):
ways, like having Ellie find thatnote feels like maybe gilding the lily a
little bit, just a just alittle bit you know what I mean.
Like, I feel like the waythis episode ends and the fact that we
come back to Joel and Ellie andthey go into their house and they see
all that stuff, Like, yeah, I get why it's there, I
get why we needed it, Butlike if it had just been that final
(38:19):
shot and that's it, and thenthe next episode is Bella Ella, Jesus
Christ, Ellie and Joel coming totheir house and seeing, yeah, it
would have been, it would haveworked just as well. Like this could
have been self contained to its ownepisode entirely. Even so, again,
like I think my only concern isthis, this episode gets the show to
(38:44):
a height that is here, andif the next episode ain't here and the
next episode ain't here, they've hittheir peak on episode three. I just
don't think that's a good idea asa show runner. If I were running
a show, I wouldn't shoot myload the third episode. That's all I'm
gonna say. So unless they unless, unless they've got something, it's too
(39:05):
good, it might well again,it might be, is what I'm saying.
It might be too good too early. Would you say it's too fast,
too curious, No, it's tooslow, too curious. Oh,
well and again, but you understandwhat I'm saying right like you, you
get it again. It's a concernif it doesn't end up being that way
(39:25):
by the end of the season,I'll go, oh, the season kind
of rose to the level of thatthird episode, But if it never gets
back there, we'll be talking abouthow good this episode was and how kind
of middle of the road everything elsewas. And I just don't know if
you want to put yourself in thatposition in your third episode. I think
it's valid. I think any creatorwants to wants to put out something that's
(39:47):
maintains a level of quality throughout.And yes, this is about as high
a watermark as you can get.My concern is if they drop down way
below even where the first or secondepisode was. I don't know. I'd
like to believe Craig Mason and NeilDruckman have the show in good hands.
I've seen Chernobyl. It worked,but it was also a limited series.
You know, it had a definitiveend. This show just got renewed for
(40:09):
a second season. Surprisingly, saidno one like, oh, it got
renewed for a second season. Yesit did. I'm surprised it took to
the third episode to get there likeyeah, I was like, yes,
yes, it got a second season. Frankly, I'm surprised that this show
didn't have like with the Lord ofthe Rings show, they weren't just like
it's three seasons and that's oh yeah, Like I think I do think the
(40:30):
one difference is like even the LastUs is a huge fan following, Like
I mean, Lord the Rings isa proven on screen thing, whereas there
is a Last of Us has aproven on screen thing because it's literally telling
the video game without their activity,like the story like the Last of Us
is why people played the game,right, I'm saying, like conceptually did
(40:50):
talk about like video games? Sure, yeah, yeah. I think that
was the only thing stopping them fromjust saying like like backed up the brain
struck of money and saying, heyPetro Pascal, you know, um,
can you take and do you wantmore money? Do you want to take
a break from Grogu to be withother Grogu number two? I think I
(41:12):
can do that, Um, butuh well I have to be on screen,
like actually on screen or will itjust be me in armor? He's
like, let me talk to myagent, um, but his an agent
who's cashing checks on his behalf whenhe's just in a in a studio recording
the voice for the Mandalorian and notI again, we always talking. I
don't have a clue, he said, voice notes on What'sapp? Like,
(41:36):
can you we do that take?He's on golf, He's like, this
is the fifth you know, Well, can't you guys do anything in post
to fix this line? I meanyeah, I mean you know, bill
us a signal, not What'sapp?But yeah, yeah, bro, he's
that's a joke that like one person, if I'm lucky, is going to
unders I use signal. I usesignal for one thing, and one thing
(41:59):
only, buying weed. W Didyou think I like it's a It's it's
encrypted, end to end. Soyeah, no, I got that.
I understood that. I was.I thought we were getting into like the
prologue of Taken to be honest.Oh no, god no, it's not
(42:19):
that exciting. It's like you havea product that I want and I don't
want to text you through Apple aboutit. Like all right, I used
signal for like my one friend whorefuses to use What'sapp. That's your one
prepper friend. Yeah, it's notreally a Prepperatious is like very like I
don't want my data, and I'mlike, all right, bro, this
is inconvenient for me, but I'lldo it. Hey, I guess as
(42:43):
a fan of the video game,they finally confirmed where the infection came from.
Oh yeah, yeah, I guess. I mean again, people will
say, oh, that's just atheory, but that's the show runners telling
you what happened. Even if it'slike I don't know what happened, the
fact that they wrote that down andthey're saying it, having a character say
it more or less means that's whatit is. I no, no,
(43:05):
I think I take that at faceout. I mean you can say,
like, okay, was an intentionalpoint. It's not a character saying it.
It's a it's a screenwriter writing it, Joel. But I know,
but like again, when you talkabout like any of these like narratives where
it's like where did the thing comefrom? If they mentioned where it might
have come from, I use thatas essentially you're telling me it's where it
came from in no uncertain terms,Like and the one thing you could say
(43:29):
about the Last of Us, they'renot really like it's not Westworld it's not
like, oh, here's what youthink it is and we're subverting all right,
this is like pretty one for one. I mean they said maybe expectations
as far as like emotive expectations,like emotional connection. But it's not about
like, oh, this is aboutthis. Oh just kidding, it's aliens.
Oh just kidding, it's a dreamLike that's not it's it's this isn't
(43:52):
a what's the word mystery box show. It's not a JJ Abrams producing Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, So like theypretty much tell you what's up.
I mean, you can maybe havesome debates about whether it was an intentional
or unintentional infestation of the food spot. It sounds like it's probably like accidental
to the like to the first episodeand said, right, and then they
evolved because if the temperatures got toohot, you know, sounds like a
(44:15):
serious of unfortunate events. Really yeah, and then everybody started eating pancakes like
yeah, so he is. Soin the first episode of the show,
we see Joel like almost not eatfour or five times. You remember that
where he's like sitting and about toeat and then he like doesn't eat.
Oh no, I don't remember,but but I wonder if that is like
(44:35):
a callback, Like I mean,it has to be, because they're like
there's a bunch of times in thefirst episode where his daughter is like,
hey, Dad, like you didn'tget the cake, and it's like,
what is this all it's And nowlooking back, it's gotta be intentional,
like they're saying like he didn't eatwell, I mean again, like Joel
says it as much in the episode, He's like people started eating the food
(44:55):
on Thursday, and by Friday peoplewere fucking infected, and by Monday it
was all game over. Yeah,because there's three days, Like that's three
fucking days, like the bytes fora wild So I guess. So it's
I'm glad that the show kind offinally explains it. And I also like,
how kind of just I'm not generic, but just like how like uninteresting
(45:19):
It frankly is like it's not interesting, like and the grains were infected,
like and you know what, ifthis were to happen that way, that's
probably the way it would happen.Just something innocuous. I like it because
it's like it's simple but satisfying.You're like, oh no, it makes
sense, like checks out and wasn'tAliens, wasn't a Colm that coming to
earth. It was we did thisto ourselves ultimately, like that John Hannah
(45:40):
cold open kind of says as much. I mean, that's the smartest thing
about this show's cold open is theshow's cold open essentially says there was never
anything anyone could do about this tobegin with, because you were unwilling to
change one minor thing, and noweverything is changed because of it. And
you know, again that Abe isa little too on the nose for our
post COVID times or current COVID times. But the fact that they continue the
(46:06):
through line with and it was justin the food and nobody knew anything about
it, Like, I appreciate thatbecause again, the game never says the
game just kind of it's not importantto the game. Not that I'm sure
it's important here either. So yeah, So I hope that this is the
high watermark that the rest of theshow this season holds itself to. I
(46:28):
won't be surprised if it doesn't.But rarely does an episode of a show
come along like this where it standsout as its own Without the show,
you could watch this entire Bill andFrank thing and not need to watch the
show at all, So that's asuccess in my book. What about you?
Yeah, no, amazing episode.Again, we'll see if the show
stands up in condition. Yeah yeah. If that's all it needed to be,
(46:52):
it succeeded. I hope that theshow keeps keeps up the momentum because
it's a pretty big shot in thearm. So so next time you hear
from us, we're gonna be talkingabout the fourth episode of the first season,
the last of Us. That episodeis titled please Hold My Hand,
So who knows clearly getting into someraiders more human beings being nasty to people.
So until then you can find youshar and I overt weirdingwaymedia dot com,
(47:15):
which is the place that we postall of these shows and everything else
that we work on. So that'swhere you can go as for this show,
like rate and review on iTunes orwherever you get the show, and
we'll catch you on the next episode.
We're media hell, every one,and welcome to of Mushrooms and Men,
(00:40):
a Last of Us podcast. Iam one of your hosts, Chris dash
you the host of the Culture Cast, and I'm joined by my good friend.
He is one of the hosts ofGame of Bros. House of Dragons,
another show where we talk about HBOt EV, your friend and mine
your shar is that the moment liquor? I don't remember what that is because
apparently this is a completely different show. Now we're talking about the third episode
(01:00):
and the Last of Us. Ohmy god, it's well, it's it's
it's quite possibly the gayest hour oftelevision you've ever seen on a network show.
The episode is titled Long, LongTime. It's written by Peter excuse
me, It's directed by Peter Whoreand written by Craig Mason, and it
well, I would say it starsPedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey, but not
(01:21):
really. This episode is more focusedon Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlett as Bill
and Frank, two men who findone another on the edge of a pandemic,
and we'll just go from there.We're gonna be talking spoilers. I
think if you've watched this show.If you're kind of in tune with the
press surrounding the show, everybody hasgone ape shit for this episode, like
hardcore people love it. Yeah,so I'm going to kick it to you,
(01:44):
Yeshar, What did you? Whatdid you think of the episode?
First off, do you see WhiteLotus Season one? I have not,
because Murray Bartlett is the absolute MVPof this And one thing I learned listen
to an interview with Oh wait wait, you asked if I seen White Lotus.
Yeah, I've seen one. IKate watched one of the Kate watched
the show, and I saw himin the show a little bit. Okay,
(02:07):
He's just he's unbelievable, Like thisdude should be in everything. But
I found out he was actually castin this prior to Whiteloaded season one coming
out, so it's just a happycoincidence. But like, yeah, anyways,
I think we're gonna seeing a lotmore of him because he's quite the
performance. Not in this show though, not in this show, We're not
gonna be seeing a single more momentof him. I met um. Yeah,
(02:30):
So well, last week we talkedabout are we going to get a
cold open every episode? So wedid it in this episode, but we
did get a flash back, solike it the whole episode's kind of all
open, frankly, like they've hada flashback in every episode now. So
and we did see Anatworv's test centerbecause we had said, you know,
we it seemed unlikely we would eversee her again in the whole season.
(02:52):
So it's nice, you know thatshe's still getting checks um. Yeah,
so this probably diverges from the gamemore so than anything we've seen so far.
So we have Bill, who's likea survivalist kind of prepper Second Amendment
dude who probably doesn't have a lotof friends, and he's well equipped to
survive a situation like this. Andactually, I have thought myself it would
(03:15):
be good to know a couple ofsurvivalists in case, shit it's the fan.
You never know, Like I'm notbeing facetious, like I've generally had
this thought. And so he's likeliving this life of solitude and I don't
want to say happiness, but he'scontent and just watching zombies are infected to
get killed. And you know it'sa weird little Tom Zombies. Stop calling
(03:37):
him zombies. This isn't a zombieshow. Okay, it looks like a
zombie show. It sounds like azombie show. Yeah, it's not a
zombie show. We promise, signedCraig Mason and Neil Druckman, and so
like, obviously he comes across thisthis stranger Murray Bartlett's Frank, and uh,
you know, they fall in loveand live together for a really long
(03:59):
time, like sixteen years, right, yeah, because it's four years in
and then it's it's four years inis when he meets him, and then
it's another sixteen years because they're effectivelyThe way the episode ends is like it's
been like maybe a couple of weekstype thing, like they it's not made
clear how long it takes for Joeland Bella to get to them and fine
(04:20):
and effectively find them, but they'retogether a long time. You know.
This reminded me a lot of Gameof Thrones once again, like we can't
stay in one place too long,but here it works, I think to
tell their story. But I'm gonnabe honest with you, and this is
my issue with this episode. Thisshow hasn't earned this fucking episode yet.
(04:43):
We're in the third episode of theshow and this is where you're going like,
come on, guys, you haven'tearned this yet. You watched West
World, right, you watched throughthe second season to the show you know
what episode this reminded me of.This reminded me of the Kicksuya episode from
the second season, and that show, as much as you may not like
it, it earned that episode.It's set up all the disparate pieces and
(05:03):
brought them together here. I appreciatethe story that they're telling, it's a
great story, but why can't youmake me care about Joel and Ellie as
much as I cared about these twocharacters? Why? I think it's it's
hard for me to kind of separatethat because the narrative so far that I've
been watching I'm not super invested in. But I would have watched an entire
(05:24):
show of just them, And that'sa problem for a show that's expecting me
to now continue on with my othercharacters that were in this episode for ten
minutes total. Well, I thinkwe have a couple of things that show
opens with, like a discussion ontests, right, that's the discussion about
tests, and Joel kind of doesa little like a memorial towards her,
(05:45):
and you could just look at itand say like, oh, what's this
disparate thing? But it's actually veryrelated because it's the story of a person
who he thinks life is almost likejust a thing to pass through. Sure,
and you realize it's like worth livingfor someone else. Yeah, Yeah,
it's yeah, they're trying to Yeah, between Bill and I get it,
And like Joe, show hasn't earnedit yet. It hasn't earned this,
(06:08):
It hasn't earned this emotional moment thatit's trying to show us because we
don't care about the characters from theshow proper yet, Like what what have
they given us to really hang ahat on? With Joel and Ellie?
That's clear, we're clearly going there. Their relationship is building. But I
feel like you're showing me right hereand now that you can write compelling characters.
(06:30):
So why are you This should havebeen like end of the end of
the first season, maybe even Iwas talking to Father Malone about this,
maybe even the first episode of thesecond season. But it's just like you're
you're really giving us a lot hereto unpack, which I appreciate, but
your main characters are sidelined already,and you've told a more compelling story without
them. That is kind of aproblem. Even if we liked this episode,
(06:53):
it is kind of a problem thisearly in the show. I don't
know if I agree with you.I think that I mean, again,
this is this is purely subjective mind. There's nothing again, this is a
story. This is how I perceivea way to tell the story should go.
Because I would love to have writtenthis episode, but I personally would
not have put it third in yourseason because there needs to be time with
(07:16):
Ellie and Joel to grow as characters. Because again, if it feels like
they already know that we should knowthese characters, like we're video game players,
and the problem is the assumption forthis show is that most people aren't.
Or who is the again, whois the audience? Because if you're
a video game player, I don'tneed to flesh out Joel and Ellie because
(07:38):
you know what their relationship is.But if I'm not, you really need
to give us like a bunch ofscenes with them getting to know one another.
And I know that it's going todo it over the entire run of
the show, but they've just shownthat they don't have to do that.
They can just have two characters sittingin a scene together and give us beautifully
written dialogue that gives us a windowinto these characters lives like we haven't gotten
(08:00):
with anybody else. It's kind ofa problems. It works as a good
inflection point because right now we knowJoel struggles to let people in, right
right, oh yeah, and weas an audience need to understand how someone
like that could be convinced to letsomeone in. And Bill and Joel are
(08:20):
like one and the same, andwe see that in the scene with him
in tests and Frank, where Joel'sbasically like, I see what you're doing.
You're a protector like me, youknow, that's really all we can
do. But if you really wantto protect, like you can't do it
on your own. And Bill softensand sees like the love that Joel has
her tests at that point, andthat's kind of like after Joel's already failed
(08:41):
his daughter, right right, Andso then he has tests and then he
I don't think he actually fails tests, but he believes he's failed her now
and so all he has left isEllie And from that point on, that's
that's the inflection point. You cankind of see when he's reading the letter
where he's like, shit, likethis can't just be about me anymore,
and I think we're now it's setthe stage where we're going to see him
(09:03):
sort of soften and become closer.And to your point, if we have
only seen Joel and Ellie interaction inthe context that they had so far and
this was like, let's say,the last episode of the season, I
think I would agree with you.But because there's actually a lot of runway
for the impact of this to playout, and it will play out,
I could feel pretty completing, itwill play out, it will pay off.
And then separately and then he saidlike, well, why is this
(09:24):
happening now? It is generally followinglike the story of the game, which
someone could argue like, doesn't meanit has to, but about this point
in the game they do interact withit is different. So they actually interact
with Bill's I could think some gamespoilers, so it's similar thing. They
go to find Bill, who workswith Joel, and like the QZ,
he and Frank were lovers. Likethat's all true, you don't really meet
(09:48):
Frank. Frank's actually dead. Bythe time you run into Bill, he's
hung himself. Because it's been infected, and actually he's left Bill because Bill's
too much like a prepper, likenarrow rigid survivalists, and he basically resents
him and says like I hate yourguts and leads, and that's how he
gets infected. And so Bill doesn'tdie either, he's just completely alone.
But he's completely alone by the endof your interaction with him, which you
(10:11):
know some could argue is worse thandeath. And in the interview list with
Neil Druckman, he said one ofthe reasons they thought this change made sense
was in the context of a game, you couldn't just have like an hour
cut scene of like Bill and Frankand like no action. You have to
be doing something. You have tobuild around it, which is why goals
like working with this. But inthe country of the show you have a
little bit more flexibility, so youstill have this like Bill and Frank dynamic,
(10:35):
but we get to see a plannedon screen. And I would argue,
even though Bill dies in this version, he probably has a happier ending
than he has in the game.I get to be the masters of their
own fate, which you don't everreally see in this kind of media.
In post apocalyptic media, most ofthe time, it's you know, We're
sitting in a corner together and I'vegot a gun and I shoot you in
the head and I shoot myself inthe head and that's it. You know.
(10:58):
I know, Sean of the Deadtrafficked in that up until the end
of the movie where it kind ofinjector seats itself. All these post apocalyptic
things tend to put characters in thatscenario and then either they die or the
last you know, the thirteenth hour, they get saved. I appreciate that
this story goes no, we're gonnaset the limits. The characters know their
(11:18):
own limitations and what they want outof this relationship and who they expect to
be and who they want to be. And I like that. It only
makes sense that Bill and Frank endup together in bed dead, like it
just it makes sense because and they'reold, and it felt like they're like
like Frank says like Bill says likeI'm old, Like like I lived a
(11:39):
good life, like I don't needanything else, And I think I just
I have a hard time with thisepisode because this show hasn't shown me that
it deserves an episode this good yet. Do you know what I mean,
do you know what I mean?Though, Like again, just take a
step back from the show and assumethat the show will not stumble and it
(12:00):
will be a show worth watching fora second season. Not by the end
of it us going, man,I will stick around because I've seen the
first season, but that the showwill land the first season. It'll get
to that point, just like itdid with Game of Thrones, House of
the Dragon, a show that neitherone of us were fucking interested in watching.
By the end of it, youand I were like, fuck,
I am on board with whatever youthrow at us second season. I'm not
(12:22):
sure I'm gonna get there with thisshow the way it's going so far,
because because I don't understand what thenarrative is, and I think that goes
to what you were talking about already. With the cold opens, the show
feels like it wants to tell thewhole story of the world and Joel and
Ellie's place in it, which isfine, But Joel and Ellie just they
(12:43):
haven't seemed as much of a presencein their own show yet as I was
expecting them to be, given thatthey're literally the main characters of the narrative
in the video game. Does thatmake sense? And again, maybe this
is just a third episode gripe,but I would have expected in this third
episode we'd continue to see Joel andEllie's character being built out, not them
going, oh, we're taking asidestep to these other characters that you've never
(13:05):
met before. Because again, Iappreciate that they had a good idea.
I watched the after episode like youdid, and Neil Druckman and Craig Mason
were like, if you have agreat idea, maybe you can pivot for
an episode. And it's like,yeah, you can. It's not your
third episode, because again, thisepisode theoretically may have been sent to people
watching it early, Like if they'rewatching this early and this is the first
(13:26):
three episodes, by the end ofthis episode, you're just like, all
right, so are they now gettingto the adventure part of this show?
But I guess is the show likeit almost adds more questions for me for
what the show is trying to bethan it answers. But I also think,
like, just go along for theride, Like I feel like you
want the answer now. No,I don't want. I want there to
be coherent storytelling about the main charactersof your show that you keep showing me
(13:50):
are the main characters. I wouldrather watch a Bill and Frank's show at
this point, and that's after oneepisode. But it is coherent, Like
you have a person who was closedoff one and nothing opened up, had
like a beautiful love story, rightand then and then you have Joel,
Who's I mean who Like it's clearlyan analog to Bill, and he's a
lot except the difference is Bill hasnever had anything Joel at one point did.
(14:13):
And we actually did spend a lotof time with Joel and episode one,
if you remember, he just wasin a different time period. But
all of the things that we sawin this episode were for our benefit,
not for the characters. Joel doesn'tknow about Bill and Frank and any of
the things that they've gone through,and he's read again, we're assuming that
by Bella or Bella Ramsey, JesusChrist, by Ellie reading that note to
(14:35):
Joel, he'll go, oh mygod, I've had this epiphany, and
like that is how that works inthe context of this kind of narrative,
because yeah, it's a show,but in real life, in the thing
they're trying to emulate, it's justit's a little hinky. It just kind
of is because like they could haveshown us Joel and Ellie's relationship growing without
(14:56):
having to give us an analog,Like what's the point of giving us an
analog this early in the I getit, but like just show us them
coming to that realization, not throughthe eyes of someone else who they're not
seeing other than one time you Joelstarts though, to get that messaging from
Tess before she dies, right likethe hoop, Like it's not like it
comes from nowhere. And you dosee Joel soft thing a little bit,
(15:16):
like he's like explaining the history ofthe world to Ellie and about planes and
talking, and he even wants toshield her from like the field of dead
bodies, which is horrifying that webarely even get to sit with that in
the show. Yeah, is thatfrom the game? Do they talk about
the government just like killing healthy people, because like that feels that feels like
(15:37):
a real drastic step that the showtakes. I mean, it is basically
what they do to his daughter rightin the first episode, and that is
from the game. So maybe it'snot like as explicas they were just going
down like like fields and fields ofpeople honestly don't remember if that is.
But and they kind of talk aboutHe's like when Franklin Bill in that one
sceneor haven't having a argument like doyou think the government or na see,
(15:58):
He's like, they are Nazis andthen think frank says, well, now
they are, but they weren't backthen, and I thought that was like
quite a funny dialogue. But doessay like, but they are Nazis,
right, Like, yeah, nownow he thought, but U and are
we being led to believe again,not having not played a lot of the
video game? Are we led tobelieve in the context of the narrative of
(16:18):
the show that because in the inthe game the government is what? What
is the government by twenty twenty three? I mean it's it's kind of like
Feder Like it's unclear if there's likea president or anything like that. I'm
sure there's some sort of centralized power, but it does seem you have almost
like these like the q zs aresort of self managed by parts of FEDER
but Feder like is federal. Um, they don't get into like super about
(16:42):
the politics. Basically, it's likethe tradeoff is you get some stability,
safety, for like, you know, as long as occasionally oppressive regimes and
like they will ice you if likeyou you know, give any lips,
so um we make it. I'dbe interesting if we get more of that,
because we haven't got a lot ofthe fireflies either, and we gets
(17:02):
around the fireflies in the game.So I wonder if you'll get to see
a bit of that political context.I don't think it's necessary, but it
could add a little bit of worldbuilding, like even if we've got like
a cold open with Fedra, Ithink could be cool kind of see like
what's going on in their mind,because as we saw with that original guard
that Joel killed, like they're someof them are just kind of normal people
trying to you know, survive anddo their own thing too. So it
(17:26):
is interesting. I do wonder.I do well. I do wonder because
again, I mean we have thisin the show is taking its own direction
obviously. I mean, like yousaid, with this episode, it has
changed the narrative for one of thecharacters completely. You know. The end
point is this is similar. It'squite with Joel and Ellie like in a
car, but like all the otherstuff is completely concocted for the show,
(17:48):
it's not in the game, evenif it's kind of hinted at, right,
it's hinted at in the game thatthey had Bill and Frank kind of
life together. Blah blah blah blahblah. The show shows it, which
I again I think is very smart. But it's just gonna go down as
a really good episode of this show. And I wonder if the show will
be as good as this episode is. And that's always a concern because I
mean, second episode, second seasonA. West World has one of the
(18:10):
best episodes of television I've ever seen. And you don't like that season A
west World and you don't like butyou don't like that season of west World
at all. And see that's mypoint. It's like, how how do
you reconcile the two. It's agreat episode of a show, but the
fucking show stinks. So what doesthat mean? Does the episode then suffer
(18:30):
because of the context that it's placedin. Could it have look at something
like Giermo de Torres cabinet curiosities?Right, no through line between any of
the episodes. It's a standalone episode, standalone narrative. You could have taken
this script and done it. Therejust as easily, just as easily.
Again, it's just you're telling astory taking place during a zombie apocalypse.
Doesn't have to be the Clickers,It don't even have. We never even
(18:52):
see them interacting with the infected.They interact with humans more than they interact
with the infected. You see afew of them, like hit is scrap
but right, but like they're notThey're not into the wall, they're not
into their house. They're not havinga fight with the Clickers or the anything.
So it could be in any postapocalyptic setting that you want. They're
(19:12):
telling this beautiful love story, butit has no bearing on the narrative.
And so yeah, you could takethis episode. I mean, what what
do Ellie and Joel get by theend of the end the end of episode?
A car? That's right, Theyget the car, and they get
the guns and yeah, yeah,Ellie gets a gun, and then you
know, Joel, I think itstarts to click into place, like right
(19:33):
that Ellie is his penance, hischance to like he's messed up not once
but twice, his daughter Tess,and like if he's really a protector like
Bill was. Bill was there tothe end, gave everything and Joel saw
himself and Bill just as much asBill saw himself and Joel, like they
had an uneasy friendship, kind ofpiss each other off, says he wasn't
(19:53):
his friend. He's like, Idon't like you, but you're my friend.
Maybe. Yeah, He's like,Okay, this is my chance to
you know, do what Bill did, but I've not been able to successfully
do myself. And yeah, Imean, what did you think about just
like the way they showed them overthe years, and like especially I think
(20:14):
the coolest well is sad the transitionbetween young Frank and old Bill and like
how that changed after the last timeJoe. So all of my kind of
issues with the episode aside in thescheme of this narrative that they're telling what
the show Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlettare fucking amazing they're turning in performance.
Is that again like the show doesn'tdeserve in a way, It's like they
(20:37):
don't even like they don't deserve tobe associated with the show because of how
good of the performances are, becauseof how good the writing is and how
believable they are. I mean,look, Nick Offerman, is this straight,
straight, straight, straight, notgay at all? And you know
what, I would not have knownthat it's beyond convincing. The two of
them work together. It doesn't feellike a put on. It doesn't feel
(21:00):
like this is somehow a forced gayrelationship, or that there's a kind of
disparity and power between the two.There's none of that. It feels really
like a genuine relationship. And Ithink for me, as someone who's gay,
I really appreciate that this is onfucking network television. We're showing a
genuine gay relationship between two male oldermen. When do you ever see that?
(21:25):
Tell me the last time you sawtwo gay men in their late fifties
early sixties on screen together? Likenot in like a season two. Okay,
haven't watched it, so there yougo. But my point is like
most of the time it's often playedfor laughs or it's an older guy and
a younger guy and oh and thatweird. But like this is just it's
played so straight as ironically, likeno pun pun or pun intended. But
(21:48):
it's played so straight with just asincerity to it that is shocking. It's
so sincere, right, Like,do you think it's the most BPK you've
ever seen? Beard per kiss somuch chest hair and kissing and beards and
so much beard. I like,I just love how uncomfortable nick Offerman looks,
(22:11):
because it's it's, oh yeah,if you if you read anything,
or listen to the audio podcast ordo any amount of inquiring on the episode
afterwards, nick Offerman was about asuncomfortable as humanly possible doing any of this.
But I think it really adds towhat we're seeing, which is a
man not okay with himself learning tobe okay with himself. Like yeah,
(22:33):
because Bill himself is like closeted anduncomfortable, and I guess I guess he's
closeted. I mean, I don'tnot to say closet is like no one
knew. It's like it seems likehe's just never maybe even been with anyone
or like never even ride like sowho knows if it's uses like embarrassed about
like being found out, or justhe just didn't feel fun of putting himself
(22:53):
out there because he's afraid of projection. And it was like counter to like
he was clearly like a very typeof person who probably wouldn't generally be LGBTQ
friendly. They would not he mightbe a conservative homosexual, but he's not
invited to the conservative table. No, yeah, yeah, so which I
(23:15):
think. I mean, again,they don't really you know what's more surprising,
they don't really like beach over thehead with that, which I felt
like could have been like a beachover the head moment where it's like,
oh, he's kind of like aprepper but he's also gay, Like isn't
that weird? And it's like,I'm glad you're not bringing attention to it
in a way that like it's justindependent things. He's a prepper and he's
also gay. Yeah, And hemeets this guy and he falls in love
(23:38):
with him and they have like aI mean, probably as good of a
run as you can have in thisenvironment. Like honestly, I think they
were living a normal life for fuckingalmost twenty years, like, and they
did have friends like like Joel andTested and like hang out, and I'm
sure they there's other people in theyears intervening too. And so it's like,
(24:00):
yeah, we only saw like fivemoments of a twenty years span.
You know, we have to asaudience members, we fill in those gaps
with all the things they must havebeen doing. And because like you said,
by the end of it, bythat moment where you've gone about as
far forward as we can go,which is effectively catching up to the live
narrative, we see Bill and Frank, and I guess Frank must have MS
(24:22):
or Parkinson's or something, a terminalillness that cannot be fixed. The creators
said, like, it didn't reallymatter what it was. It doesn't matter.
But yet when he says they couldn'tsolve it when we were on the
beginning of the pandemic part of this, don't expect anybody's going to solve it
now that they've got other things toworry about, you kind of get what
they're getting at. I again,I appreciate where the narrative goes, because
(24:45):
those last couple scenes together are notsad. I don't think the word I
would use as sad. They're kindof bittersweet. I mean again, you
see these two men at the endof their lives kind of willingly accepting what's
happening, and in a way,like we kind of said before, they
get to be the architects of theirown conclusion, which in these narratives that's
not a thing. They're normally lyingblooding dead or infected having to you know,
(25:08):
he's not your husband anymore like that, you know, I mean,
where where's that scene? Like I'mI'm glad we don't get it? Because
fuck that, Like that shits soplayed out at this point, Like I
don't want to character have to makea decision to kill his significant other.
Like that's not that's not pleasant foranyone to watch. I mean we we
all sort of had it. Whenthey're invaded by the raiders and Bill shot
(25:30):
and he's like going through all hisyou know, his planning. He's like,
oh, you know, here's wherethe keys are and here's the notes,
and called Joel and in that momentsays like, oh, he really
does trust Joel, Like he thinksthat's the person who can save Frank,
and you know, he goes allthese things and that's like where their roles
are reversed and Frank is what whosaves him and takes care of him and
(25:51):
brings him back to life. AndI think it kind of emphasizes how despite
being very different kinds of people,they work. Would they have worked outside
of this context of like the worldending. Maybe maybe not, but I'd
like to believe that it could haveworked and like it was like it was
just a real relationship, like theyou know, he's like the little thing
(26:11):
like Frank was just the light thatBill wasn't but right, it was just
a joy to watch, like whenhe went to the when when the Bill
takes Frank to the strawberry patch,that was a genuine that was a genuine
moment. And then and it wasat that point they've been together a while,
right, like like they know eachother, like it's that it's not
(26:32):
a new love. It's like Iknow you, like I see you.
There's like like we don't have tobullshit and you know, he's like how
did you get the seas like atrade with Joey's like what did you trade?
He's like, okay, a littleone, but it's just like what
are those things where Earlier the restof that would probably set off when he's
like I get it, like I'llgive up this thing to my partner because
I know it makes him happy.And then he embraces with his partner and
(26:52):
eats the strawberry and he's like,oh yeah, this is beautiful. That
laughs that Nick Offerman gives felt it'sit feels real, like that whole scene
feels real. Anytime they're together,it feels real. And the casting,
I mean, you gotta give creditto the casting. I've seen Nick Offerman
in all of nothing. You youhave to understand that, no, oh,
not a Parks and Rex fan.I don't like cringe humor. That
stuff. Cringe humor is not funnyto me. I can't laugh at it
(27:15):
because, like, it's just I'vewatched The Office and I know that that's
not that's not something that motivates mein the world a comedy, and I
know Parks and Rec is very muchin the same vein. So let's let's
cringe humor. But but definitely likebut if you don't like The Office,
you're probably not gonna like Parks.And also, I'm not going to watch
something that has Chris Pratt in it, regardless of what era Chris Pratt it
(27:36):
was, because he's just wo bics. Okay, all right, Chris,
we get it. You're literally acomplete shill at this point. I mean,
he is, he is. I'mnot being mean. Why are you
cast as? Mario pal Like,what do you bring to the table?
I loved? Let me check mynotes Mario on the what was that Nintendo
is that what it's called? Like, come on, bro, I mean,
we're all gonna see it. I'mgonna see it, but not for
(27:59):
Chris Pratt, And frankly, I'mgonna see it in spite of Chris Pratt
being in it, which I feellike is most people speaking of video game
adaptations, Why isn't he in this? Just walks on the screen and get
sh okay bye. There's another thingwe haven't talked about. You like,
we spent a lot of time withthis, we still haven't really spent much
time with Tommy as well, seenhim at all the first episode well I've
(28:21):
seen him at all. I meanwe haven't seen him at all in the
present pleasant yet I've narrated so interestedto see his dynamic mesh with Joel and
Ellie as well. But I thinkto your complaint or it's it's just it's
just an observation. I think ifit was the end of the season and
we never got the time with Joeland Ellie, I think it would be
(28:42):
valid. I think because there's stilla lot of time for it to breathe.
I'm I hope I'm less compelled byit, but yet, But you
understand where I'm coming from though,right, like, this is a big
moment that the show is showing off, and it's a moment that the writers
of the show worked really hard onand they want us to walk away from
(29:06):
this episode with an emotional impact thatstays with us, and I just feel
like putting it here kind of getsin the way of the bigger story at
hand, which is Joel and Ellie'srelationship. Because again, if you've played
the video game, you know whatJoel is willing to sacrifice for Ellie.
It's not a fucking surprise, andI would have liked the narrative to get
(29:27):
there on its own without having itgo well, there are other people who
are doing it, so why don'tyou get it? It's like, you
know what I mean, Like weI don't know. Back to the point
of Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlett.Nick Offerman, who I've seen in nothing,
I don't know any of his comedicwhatever stylings. He is fantastic in
this episode. Yeah, it's justit believable beyond words. And again as
(29:49):
someone who's a heterosexual man playing agay character who went out of his way
to speak with other gay men aboutthat relationship and what that would mean to
see that on screen. I appreciatethat because that shows a level of foresight
on Nickofferman's part and most actors.I mean, I'm not saying most actors
aren't going to do that, butthat takes a special kind of actor to
(30:10):
say I want to do this rightbecause I know people are going to take
an issue with it if it's notrealistic. Doesn't have to be perfect,
but it needs to be realistic.Yeah, And I mean Murray Bartlett is
a gay man and he's one actualgame in Yeah, he's Australian, pretty
good American accent, very believable Americanaccent. And so I think, like
(30:33):
I think Neil Druckman was saying,like he kind of helped guide some of
the interactions and way they conversed andthings like that, So it did feel
It's felt very real, and Imean that's acting right, Like yeah,
like Nickafferman was literally like playing someoneas far removed from himself. Well,
he's into carpentry and stuff, somaybe I mean, you know, he
(30:56):
still likes to build things, soyeah, but yeah, so and I
think in a show like this,in which we're probably going to have a
lot of dark times. It's nicethat these little moments of optimism and hope
remind us that it's not just anoppressive moment to moment survival, Like there
is something to live for and somethingmore than just losing to the next day,
(31:18):
right, And I think that's whatAnd yes, it's maybe beating us
a little heart of a head,but Joel's finding out that Ellie is that.
And even Ellie is treating Joel alittle differently, Like she comes out
and says, like, you know, the Test thing, it's it's almost
like from a place of defensiveness,like, oh, I'm not going to
apologize for test because you guys madethe decisions. Don't blame me. But
obviously she feels bad about that situation. Maybe she's even scared that Joel will
(31:41):
resent her. But then she's alsolike becoming more comfortable when she starts making
jokes with him and like picking athim and being an annoying kid. And
that's actually straight out of the game, where like Ellie is so curious because
she's never seen these things before,and she's almost like, yeah, she's
reckless because like, yeah, shedoes about the effective, but she's never
really had to deal with them.And maybe she's been a little like,
I don't know, more like Joelthan she thinks, like when we see
(32:02):
her in the arena where she Okay, what's up with that? What?
What do you think? Why doyou think there's a scene when Joel first
goes into the warehouse however, toget his supplies Ellie. Also, they
didn't clear the rooms, which Ifound a little weird, like the first
thing I would do is clear therooms. But anyway, um, Ellie
(32:22):
goes into this little section that Joel'snot in and there's a like a scrap
essentially infected, and she goes upto it, and you know, we've
all been there with bugs and stuff, and that kind of curiously prods it
and then she stabs it like verylike viciously. And I was thinking,
I was like, is this becauseI think there's two ways you could initially
(32:43):
think of that. There's is ither almost doing out of compassion, like
you know, this is a horribleexistence, Um, I don't want to
leave them here. But then Ithink you see her face and it's almost
some more like anger and vindictive,Like it's anger. I mean, it's
it's it's anger. Yeah, it'sa dark and I think it's something that's
maybe supposed to show us that muchlike Joel has a darkness for different reasons,
(33:07):
like they might be more similar inspirit than either of them would acknowledge.
Whereas Ellie probably would never say she'sas rough as Joel, and Joel
would never say like he has likea soft discarc curiosity like Ellie does.
But I think they both have alittle bit of each other, much like
Bill and Frank, right right.And I think that that scenes interesting with
Ellie and the and the infected becausebut again, like like you just said,
(33:29):
like to what end, right,I reserve judgment because again I don't
know if they're going to expound uponit in further episodes and kind of give
us because like you said, Imean we even though I've never played all
the way through the game, Iknow the depths to which the narrative kind
of delves into serious brutal consequences foryour actions, Like I know some of
(33:52):
the beats to the story, andthe character of Ellie is not this precocious
child in the second game at all. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah,
I'm not sure if they're again Idon't right right, an adult and
like a full adult. Right inthe second game, she's a She's not
she's not this character anymore. Sowe don't know to what ends the show
(34:13):
embraces that portion of the game andthat are we seeing that already? I
don't know. Or is it justor is it just showing us that there's
more to her than is externally,Like I think there's a few different ways.
It doesn't necessarily have to be likeshe does this now she's just killing
random people because she's secretly like asociopath or whatever. Like, I don't
think the show needs to do that. It could, that could be a
(34:34):
route that goes, but I thinkit's I think it's more to just kind
of fletch out the edges. Butyeah, we'll see, we'll see if
if this through line goes anywhere.But it's interesting because again, like you
said, I mean I could seeit as oh, poor thing, you
know, trapped, let me killit, but not not not the not
the role. Not That was notthe sense I was getting from what Bella
Ramsey was doing, not her facialexpressions and like the way she was it
(34:59):
was it wasn't like a fear orsadness. It was like I don't enjoy
is maybe too far, but somethingcloser to that. She was not not
enjoying killing that thing, you know. And again, I mean, maybe
it's just as much as like,I've spent the fourteen years of my life
running away from these things and havingmy life and up ended by them,
and now I get the opportunity tostab one. But I don't think it
(35:22):
was that either. Again, knowingwhat I know about the narrative and the
where it goes in the video game, it would be safe to say this
is a thing that they're going tohave to address again. If not,
you know, almost immediately, becausewho knows. Again, I know where
the game goes. The show probablyis going the same direction, but it
has shown it's willing to just throwout what you think you know and replace
(35:44):
it with something. In this caseof this episode a lot better because this
is better than the than the videogame's handling of Bill, right, It's
better because it's more interesting. It'sit's more interesting from like a viewer's perspective.
I think give us that. Imean, you could have done the
other way, and that would havebeen a lot more just kind of traditional
action a zombie show. Yeah,and yeah, I don't see like even
(36:07):
video game purists really having a problemwith this, because, like I said,
from like an overarching narrative standpoint,still gets them basically to the same
place, like they're following in thesame route. It's just now you understand
a bit more about other people inthis world. And that's something you don't
get in the game because when you'replaying a video game, like you're the
character, you're who you're playing thisthird point of view, either playing this
(36:27):
Joel or Elliot, like I mean, because otherwise what are you doing?
But a show gives you that flexibility, and I do like that they're taking
full advantage of it. I'm interestingto see if they're going to do more
of these kind of side stories orfleshing out a characters whom we haven't spent
a lot of time with. Onecomes to mind that I'm now that I'm
thinking like a potential antagonist later on. I'm thinking I wouldn't be surprised if
(36:51):
we get some like flashback time withthem, and I think I think you'll
enjoy it if it's what I'm Ifwhat I'm thinking is going to happen,
I don't want to get to spoilersjust because once again, like since I
think they're gonna fall the natter prettyclosely. Yeah, anything I say is
essentially a spoiler that happened. Yeah, but there's there's there's a lot of
interesting characters upcoming well, and evenlike you said, I mean this episode,
(37:13):
they effectively get to the same place. Like Bill, the character is
in a different place, but youdon't come back to Bill in the video
game, so he could be himbeing alive or dead is kind of unimportant
to you as a game player,and realistically as a viewer were I might
come back to this, but whogives a shit? Like what what is
(37:34):
the point of coming back here?You've said everything I feel like you needed
to say or wanted to say,and you left it on a pretty poignant
moment of looking out the window,which is effectively just them showing the video
games opening title screen. I'm sureyou realize that, but that's all that
I mean, like it, butit works here, and like what else
is there to say there? Andeven honestly, even in a lot of
(37:55):
ways, like having Ellie find thatnote feels like maybe gilding the lily a
little bit, just a just alittle bit you know what I mean.
Like, I feel like the waythis episode ends and the fact that we
come back to Joel and Ellie andthey go into their house and they see
all that stuff, Like, yeah, I get why it's there, I
get why we needed it, Butlike if it had just been that final
(38:19):
shot and that's it, and thenthe next episode is Bella Ella, Jesus
Christ, Ellie and Joel coming totheir house and seeing, yeah, it
would have been, it would haveworked just as well. Like this could
have been self contained to its ownepisode entirely. Even so, again,
like I think my only concern isthis, this episode gets the show to
(38:44):
a height that is here, andif the next episode ain't here and the
next episode ain't here, they've hittheir peak on episode three. I just
don't think that's a good idea asa show runner. If I were running
a show, I wouldn't shoot myload the third episode. That's all I'm
gonna say. So unless they unless, unless they've got something, it's too
(39:05):
good, it might well again,it might be, is what I'm saying.
It might be too good too early. Would you say it's too fast,
too curious, No, it's tooslow, too curious. Oh,
well and again, but you understandwhat I'm saying right like you, you
get it again. It's a concernif it doesn't end up being that way
(39:25):
by the end of the season,I'll go, oh, the season kind
of rose to the level of thatthird episode, But if it never gets
back there, we'll be talking abouthow good this episode was and how kind
of middle of the road everything elsewas. And I just don't know if
you want to put yourself in thatposition in your third episode. I think
it's valid. I think any creatorwants to wants to put out something that's
(39:47):
maintains a level of quality throughout.And yes, this is about as high
a watermark as you can get.My concern is if they drop down way
below even where the first or secondepisode was. I don't know. I'd
like to believe Craig Mason and NeilDruckman have the show in good hands.
I've seen Chernobyl. It worked,but it was also a limited series.
You know, it had a definitiveend. This show just got renewed for
(40:09):
a second season. Surprisingly, saidno one like, oh, it got
renewed for a second season. Yesit did. I'm surprised it took to
the third episode to get there likeyeah, I was like, yes,
yes, it got a second season. Frankly, I'm surprised that this show
didn't have like with the Lord ofthe Rings show, they weren't just like
it's three seasons and that's oh yeah, Like I think I do think the
(40:30):
one difference is like even the LastUs is a huge fan following, Like
I mean, Lord the Rings isa proven on screen thing, whereas there
is a Last of Us has aproven on screen thing because it's literally telling
the video game without their activity,like the story like the Last of Us
is why people played the game,right, I'm saying, like conceptually did
(40:50):
talk about like video games? Sure, yeah, yeah. I think that
was the only thing stopping them fromjust saying like like backed up the brain
struck of money and saying, heyPetro Pascal, you know, um,
can you take and do you wantmore money? Do you want to take
a break from Grogu to be withother Grogu number two? I think I
(41:12):
can do that, Um, butuh well I have to be on screen,
like actually on screen or will itjust be me in armor? He's
like, let me talk to myagent, um, but his an agent
who's cashing checks on his behalf whenhe's just in a in a studio recording
the voice for the Mandalorian and notI again, we always talking. I
don't have a clue, he said, voice notes on What'sapp? Like,
(41:36):
can you we do that take?He's on golf, He's like, this
is the fifth you know, Well, can't you guys do anything in post
to fix this line? I meanyeah, I mean you know, bill
us a signal, not What'sapp?But yeah, yeah, bro, he's
that's a joke that like one person, if I'm lucky, is going to
unders I use signal. I usesignal for one thing, and one thing
(41:59):
only, buying weed. W Didyou think I like it's a It's it's
encrypted, end to end. Soyeah, no, I got that.
I understood that. I was.I thought we were getting into like the
prologue of Taken to be honest.Oh no, god no, it's not
(42:19):
that exciting. It's like you havea product that I want and I don't
want to text you through Apple aboutit. Like all right, I used
signal for like my one friend whorefuses to use What'sapp. That's your one
prepper friend. Yeah, it's notreally a Prepperatious is like very like I
don't want my data, and I'mlike, all right, bro, this
is inconvenient for me, but I'lldo it. Hey, I guess as
(42:43):
a fan of the video game,they finally confirmed where the infection came from.
Oh yeah, yeah, I guess. I mean again, people will
say, oh, that's just atheory, but that's the show runners telling
you what happened. Even if it'slike I don't know what happened, the
fact that they wrote that down andthey're saying it, having a character say
it more or less means that's whatit is. I no, no,
(43:05):
I think I take that at faceout. I mean you can say,
like, okay, was an intentionalpoint. It's not a character saying it.
It's a it's a screenwriter writing it, Joel. But I know,
but like again, when you talkabout like any of these like narratives where
it's like where did the thing comefrom? If they mentioned where it might
have come from, I use thatas essentially you're telling me it's where it
came from in no uncertain terms,Like and the one thing you could say
(43:29):
about the Last of Us, they'renot really like it's not Westworld it's not
like, oh, here's what youthink it is and we're subverting all right,
this is like pretty one for one. I mean they said maybe expectations
as far as like emotive expectations,like emotional connection. But it's not about
like, oh, this is aboutthis. Oh just kidding, it's aliens.
Oh just kidding, it's a dreamLike that's not it's it's this isn't
(43:52):
a what's the word mystery box show. It's not a JJ Abrams producing Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, So like theypretty much tell you what's up.
I mean, you can maybe havesome debates about whether it was an intentional
or unintentional infestation of the food spot. It sounds like it's probably like accidental
to the like to the first episodeand said, right, and then they
evolved because if the temperatures got toohot, you know, sounds like a
(44:15):
serious of unfortunate events. Really yeah, and then everybody started eating pancakes like
yeah, so he is. Soin the first episode of the show,
we see Joel like almost not eatfour or five times. You remember that
where he's like sitting and about toeat and then he like doesn't eat.
Oh no, I don't remember,but but I wonder if that is like
(44:35):
a callback, Like I mean,it has to be, because they're like
there's a bunch of times in thefirst episode where his daughter is like,
hey, Dad, like you didn'tget the cake, and it's like,
what is this all it's And nowlooking back, it's gotta be intentional,
like they're saying like he didn't eatwell, I mean again, like Joel
says it as much in the episode, He's like people started eating the food
(44:55):
on Thursday, and by Friday peoplewere fucking infected, and by Monday it
was all game over. Yeah,because there's three days, Like that's three
fucking days, like the bytes fora wild So I guess. So it's
I'm glad that the show kind offinally explains it. And I also like,
how kind of just I'm not generic, but just like how like uninteresting
(45:19):
It frankly is like it's not interesting, like and the grains were infected,
like and you know what, ifthis were to happen that way, that's
probably the way it would happen.Just something innocuous. I like it because
it's like it's simple but satisfying.You're like, oh no, it makes
sense, like checks out and wasn'tAliens, wasn't a Colm that coming to
earth. It was we did thisto ourselves ultimately, like that John Hannah
(45:40):
cold open kind of says as much. I mean, that's the smartest thing
about this show's cold open is theshow's cold open essentially says there was never
anything anyone could do about this tobegin with, because you were unwilling to
change one minor thing, and noweverything is changed because of it. And
you know, again that Abe isa little too on the nose for our
post COVID times or current COVID times. But the fact that they continue the
(46:06):
through line with and it was justin the food and nobody knew anything about
it, Like, I appreciate thatbecause again, the game never says the
game just kind of it's not importantto the game. Not that I'm sure
it's important here either. So yeah, So I hope that this is the
high watermark that the rest of theshow this season holds itself to. I
(46:28):
won't be surprised if it doesn't.But rarely does an episode of a show
come along like this where it standsout as its own Without the show,
you could watch this entire Bill andFrank thing and not need to watch the
show at all, So that's asuccess in my book. What about you?
Yeah, no, amazing episode.Again, we'll see if the show
stands up in condition. Yeah yeah. If that's all it needed to be,
(46:52):
it succeeded. I hope that theshow keeps keeps up the momentum because
it's a pretty big shot in thearm. So so next time you hear
from us, we're gonna be talkingabout the fourth episode of the first season,
the last of Us. That episodeis titled please Hold My Hand,
So who knows clearly getting into someraiders more human beings being nasty to people.
So until then you can find youshar and I overt weirdingwaymedia dot com,
(47:15):
which is the place that we postall of these shows and everything else
that we work on. So that'swhere you can go as for this show,
like rate and review on iTunes orwherever you get the show, and
we'll catch you on the next episode.
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