Episode 5: Endure and Survive

HBO's The Last of Us is an adaptation of the award-winning video game from 2013 that allowed the players to explore the infection-ravaged United States while playing as the two leads Joel and Ellie who are tasked with getting Ellie to the safe zone as she may carry the key to their survival.

Join The Kulturecast's Chris Stachiw and Game of Bros' Yashar Pirasteh as they talk all about episode five "Endure and Survive". We follow up last week's cliffhanger with another fantastic episode of TV wrought with infected, killer humans, and the show's first action set piece.

For more episodes of Of Mushrooms & Men along with many more podcasts that are guaranteed to be your new favorite audio obsession, check out Weirding Way Media at weirdingwaymedia.com.

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
We're media. Hello everyone, andwelcome to of Mushrooms and Men, a

(00:40):
last of us podcast. I amone of your hosts, Chris Stashu of
the Culture Cast, and I amjoined by my good friend. He and
I used to host a little showabout House of the Dragon Game of Thrones,
but well it's on hiatus because thisshow replaced it in the in the
run for this year, I guessis this is the next big thing that
HBO released. You're a friend inmind your shark. I think my floors
are breathing still. God yep.And on this episode of Mushrooms and Men,

(01:06):
we're gonna be talking about the fifthepisode, which aired a little earlier,
folks, because of a little thingin this country called the superb Owl.
Where is the Owl? We willnot know until he shows up.
Great, great reference, because Iwas thinking the exact same thing, right
for legal reasons, I don't know, come on down to my house for

(01:29):
the big game. Yeah, Imean it's getting my Matthew Berry is getting
there. I just keep watching thethings that I keep watching things that he's
in so that I can see that, like, because the Laslow thing is
really just Matt Barry doing the thingshe's been doing, but a little bit
more primarily Garth Marengue's Dark Place,which is a lot more fun than this

(01:51):
show is because this show just becamelike a nightmare overnight, Like this show
went bleaker than bleak obviously. Um, for anyone doesn't know, we're talk
about what we do in the Shadows, but now we're talk what are they
talking about? But now we're talkingabout the last of Us, which Endurance
survive. Um, it feels morelike half of an episode than the first

(02:14):
part of this two parter. DidDoes that make sense? The first part
of this the first part of thistwo parter because it is a two parter,
right, Yeah, Yeah, feelslike more of a complete story than
the second half of the episode.Um, I almost think this felt a
bit more complete. Yeah, thefirst part, like it was definitely okay,

(02:35):
and then and then I feel likethis kind of there was a lot
of end thenning and thenning at thebeginning of this episode. Yeah, And
that's I think what leads to mefeeling that way. Is it because it
feels like the first half of theepisode is almost and then and then and
in a way that the Bill andFrank stuff could have been but they instead
committed because well, they're not goingto commit another entire episode to two other

(02:55):
characters, right right, And that'swhy I feel like this feels a little
bit and then and then and thenbecause it's like and then they meet John
gets his character, and then it'slike, okay, like all right,
how about that opening though, fuckyou Fedra? Oh my god, you
know what, Like that reminded meof in all kinds of bad ways,
just like so many bad things we'veseen in the news in the last like

(03:20):
everything, it's just like constant.It's like, stopped embarding us with this,
please, Although that was taken kindof from the game. In the
game, so in the game youdon't actually see the overthrow, but you
do see like bodies of Fedra hungup and strung up, and so it's
it's not like it came out ofnowhere, and that took out about like
two weeks before when Joel and Elliecame as when they overthrew Fedra. And
it does seem like the one interestingthing about the Feders it seems like it's

(03:43):
not insistent everywhere, Like the Federthat Joel had in Boston is like not
great, but you can manage withthem, it seems like, whereas the
one that they had in Casey werereally good at killing the clickers, but
really bad at being humans. Yeah, really bad at being human to one
another. I guess they were murderingand raping and thieving and just like yeah,

(04:05):
I guess being yeah, being terrible, right, So like it kind
of like made those I guess imagesin retrospect be like, okay, I
could you know, like when anyoppressed people fights back, it's usually not
it's usually not like a nice,non violent thing, right, It's right,
it's like I want to get backto you the pain that you've inflicted
on me. So right, ohtotally, And you know again like obviously

(04:28):
this episode it opens with again morenot a cold open, but a flashback,
and we had flashbacks too, likeyou said, Kansas City being taken
over and we get to see whatMelanie Lynsky is just so goddamn upset about,
and it's her brother died because hewas given up by Henry, whose
brother is Sam, who was sick, who could only get meds from FEDRA,
and so he sold out the bigrevolutionary in Kansas City who happened to

(04:53):
be Melanie Lynsky's brother to Fedra,he died and Henry and Sam are now
on the run if they aiding MelanieLynskey, and that's the setup. Yeah,
I mean that shows like why she'sso mad and like won't let it
go, and why she also hasso much um like support from her people
to you also understand like what she'sbrought them from brand why like everyone's kind

(05:14):
of ride or die with her becauseit's ultimately less about her, it's about
her brother and they're just sticking aroundbecause of her, yeah connection to her
brother, because again she doesn't shedoesn't seem like a particularly good leader at
all, but Perry says to herher, he was like your brother was
a great man, but like wedidn't remember the exact quotes, like basically

(05:35):
we weren't able to get our freedomuntil you took over, So like I'm
with you. So she was effectivein getting the things she needed done,
But it seems like she was alsoa bit myopic, like she was I
mean, we'll get this later,but she's so laser focused on the one
thing and that's getting revenge and maybethat helps her get out of the situation
there in but it also like leadsto her downfall later in the episode.

(05:59):
So even the opening, she doesthe trial right. She goes into the
group of the whatever Confederate service,the stool pigeons as they would become,
and she like, you know,if you guys help us find Henry,
I will you know, give youa trial. And she leaves and she's
like, no, no trial,like it's just to get information, and
they just go execute like twenty people. You didn't you didn't say the best

(06:23):
line. She goes, nah,just burn the bodies when you're done.
It's fast, or she is looklike she's she's written to the point where
she's twirling her mustache like it's justit's unfortunate that the character is given very
little nuance, because the character's notgiven a whole lot of nuance. But
it's it's intentional, which is whyit's not a problem. Like it's intentional

(06:45):
to prove a point about the myopicnous of revenge and what that means to
you know, be on the courseof avenging someone's death or what have you.
Because again you just you beat,like you said, you become so
lazy focus that you have blinders ontoeverything, even common sense, you know,
like, nobody in the right mindis going to turn their back to

(07:06):
a bunch of infected and start walkingtowards someone else when there are clickers and
a bloater and things behind you.But that's where we get to by the
end of this episode. And Iappreciate that she's written that way. It
just feels like it's a shame.It's Melanie Lynskey because she's such a good
actress that she brings a lot tothe character, but because of the way
the character is written in the expectations, she's just not given a lot of

(07:29):
room to do much with it otherthan just be evil, like pure evil
more or less. But I don'tI didn't take her as like pure evil.
I took her as like, there'sthis through line in the show of
you know, love of justifies thething. We use love to justify the
bad things that we do, rightright, I we love Sam, so
he felt justified in saying like,my brother's life is worth more than your

(07:51):
brother's life. And then she's like, well, no, my brother's life
is worth more than your brother's life. And if it's plays anything like the
Games, it's going to be acommon through line that we see more,
learn more of and so there's partof me that felt like they're beating this
pretty hard into us now at alittle too much is kind of my point,
like they're almost letting that message getin the way of effective character writing,

(08:13):
because it's like, we need youto understand that people are making these
decisions already. So when because likenow it feels like this is where it's
going, Like yeah, it's likewhen Joel makes this decision, we want
you to understand that he is noworse or better than other people you've seen
doing this already. It's saying likewe will do bad things because we justify

(08:37):
it with love. And you seeit in like movies all the time,
right when someone willing to trade likelike a bunch of people, it's like
the reverse trolley role will trade likea thousand lives just to save a loved
one and like from a purely rationalperspective, like probably shouldn't do that.
And there is nothing that says likemy family's life is of higher moral value
than yours, generally speaking, andyou know, who are we to make

(08:58):
these judge? But in a timelike this, like that's all these people
have is those connections and they're willingto like just completely forsake the things they
do, and then there's a lotof consequences. So these are like,
this is about consequences, the consequencesof Henry turning in Kathleen's brother and the
consequences of Joel helping them, andthe consequences of At the end, I
think Joel starting to feel that samebond with Ellie that Henry and Sam have,

(09:24):
that Kathleen and her brother have,and like, what does that mean
for Joel? How is that goingto change his decision making where he's maybe
a bit more objective and now ishe gonna lose that? And is he
going to put himself in risky situations? I mean, these are all things
we're going to see um and Ireally like Henry and Sam. The actors
were great, the kids, Samcavan Woodard. Did you hear the story
about how you get cast? Apparentlythey wanted So. One of the key

(09:46):
differences is as follows the Sam andHenry, their storyline is quite similar,
except Sam's a bit older and they'renot running from like Kathleen, but they
are like on the run. Andone of the big changes they made Sam
deaf, which is cool, likeit actually works in the context of,
oh, this is like someone who'seven like less able to take care of
themselves without their brothers. So itmakes like Henry like really like I am

(10:09):
taking care of this kid. Andso they wanted to cast a deaf kid,
a deaf black kid right for thisrole, and they I think it
was Craig Mason said, like theybasically got just a handful of people trying
to try out that no one reallylike. So he's like living put an
open cast and call on Twitter,say anyone who like you know, meets
these like young black Death send itor whatever. He said. He got

(10:31):
five, just five auditions, andone of them was and he gave on
and the kid was like really greatbecause I think he's never done anything before,
and like, I mean, obviouslyhim being deaf makes like the als
part more effective and like we believedit because he's obviously grown up with it.
But I really loved his like performanceand how scared he was and he

(10:52):
almost treated Ellie like Ellie treats Joelas in like someone to look up to.
And found that quite moving, whichI think obviously makes the ending of
bit more more sad, and theMark Johnson's Henry was really great too,
Like you could just tell, likehe really he's a guy who was self
aware but scared and just wanted todo best by his brother, even if
it meant kind of feeling wrong bysomebody else. Yeah. Well, and

(11:13):
again, you know, I thinkwhat's really interesting is, you know,
having you know, Kevin Woodard withbeing deaf. It makes sense even narratively,
because this is a world where thereare creatures that exists that are operating
off of ability to hear. Right, Yes, so maybe his silence actually
almost the opposite. I said,like makes him more valuable because it makes

(11:37):
it more valuable, but it doesmake him harder to, like you said,
take care of himself because he stillcan't hear the other infected. It's
just for this one specific kind.And again, the other thing is and
I appreciate this about the show.The show does kind of at this point,
it's it's really making it clear theinfected are a threat, but they're
not as much of a threat aseverything else controllable. I mean, it

(12:01):
obviously depends where you're at, butit seems like, you know, with
enough equipment and like the feder hastraining and stuff, like that, Like
they can generally make an area relativelyhabitable where the things you're worried about as
long as you're staying in your areawon't be the effect, and it will
be it's really the behavior of otherhumans. It may be just more like
what a lot of us normally worryabout on a daily basis. It's just

(12:22):
in this world people have been displacedby the Court of Sets in a lot
of ways. It feels more likeyou've been displaced by them, and when
you intrude into their area it becomesa problem. But it's less that they're
like a zombie threat that's a constant, overwhelming threat. Like yeah, and
I appreciate that, but at thesame time, like it makes it harder

(12:46):
in some of the things that happenedtowards the end of this episode to believe
that some of these characters are thatstupid, because like this is twenty years
on. They would just like getin their cars leave, is my point,
Like you know what I mean,Like I just don't find it back
to Kansas City like again, becausethis is like out in kind of the
suburbs, and so I don't know, like it's just what's interesting is the

(13:09):
way that they're treating the effected.I appreciate it because the show is so
not about the infected in a waythat the video game has to be to
add that in so that you havesomething to constantly be fighting. But I
appreciate that in the show we reallyhave taken the Court accepts and kind of
just used it as similar in alot of ways to the White Walkers in

(13:31):
Game of Thrones, where they're there, we know they're there, and if
you're a certain character in a certainpart of the map of wester Rows,
they may be a bigger threat thannot. But like you said, a
lot of the people in the worldof The Last of Us are just living
in these q z's and that they'rejust living a normal life best that they
can. But they're not constantly worriedabout the infected infective threat coming into the

(13:56):
q Z because in Kansas City,I mean really, they were destroyed from
within by people, not by theinfected. Yeah, I mean yeah.
And it said, like the onething Fedra was good at is they drove
all of the infect underground and theybasically killed them all. Although it's been
several years that happening, I guessFedra had probably been running sweeps and stuff
like that, so this was youknow, it sounds like Fedra was really

(14:18):
bad. But the one service theyprovided was an important one, right.
It was the service that you wouldhope they'd provide, right, and it
was one Kathleen, I think,let Vengeance get in the in front of
And the thing is like, thiswas only two weeks after the fact is
all these infected came up, Soit was like if they had taken longer
to catch Henry, who knows likehow much worse it would have even been,

(14:39):
right, Which I think is interestingbecause we do see a character from
the video game introduced that would havebeen introduced what two episodes ago, the
Bloater, Right, the Bloater isinteresting and I don't I don't know how
how do you feel about the waythe Bloater just kind of shows up and
happens. I'm curious because again,like in the video game, we talked
a little but about it in thelast episode. Like it in the video

(15:01):
game, it feels pretty ham fistedbecause you need like you're at the end
of this kind of chapter of thegame, and yeah, you need a
boss to fight or some threat thatis a little bit more overwhelming than just
a bunch of infected, so itmakes sense narratively there. I'm curious what
was kind of your take here ofjust this end scene with the bloater coming

(15:22):
up and it's like, oh mygod, here's this giant thing that is
that almost doesn't even seem like tonallyit belongs in the world that it's in.
So I think there's a few thingsgoing on that follows, like a
really intense sequence that's straight out ofthe game with the sniper. Right right,
there's a there's a sniper holding Joeland Ellie and Sam and Henry back

(15:43):
and Joel has to sneak around toa house and this is as they're trying
to escape in the game Pittsburgh inthis Kansas city that's almost exact same,
except it's now dark. The snipersucks and there's not like just random boons
to kill, and so that feedsinto this the biggest amount of essentially zombie

(16:03):
court of subspience we've seen. Joelkills this like old man who's kind of
like suicide by cop um, suicideby Joel Joel. Yeah, and it's
quite sad, like he's begging him, don't do it. Don't do it,
don't make it, don't make medo it. But it's like,
don't make me do it, like, don't make me do it, because
you know what he means. Yeah, this guy, he's done, you
know, living And then that leadsequence leads to Kathleen and everyone coming and

(16:27):
the accident, which essentially unleashes theCourt of Steps and that whole sequence.
I thought it was quite cool,and yeah, the bloater pops out,
and as someone who liked the game, I was like, I don't know,
like it was cool, Like right, it was cool. Rip carry's
head off? I mean, couldyou remove it? And and like this
this episode still generally plays the sameway. Sure, but honestly it's cool

(16:48):
and sometimes it's coool. Just havecool. Gnarly happened And I didn't really
have a problem with it, mbut you do get what I mean,
Like in the video game, itmakes sense in the show, it's like
what I have it again, likeI have no I am not saying I
have a problem with it at all, but you and I do both kind
of I think agree a little bitat least see some common ground of like

(17:10):
it didn't need to be there.It doesn't add anything. It does look
cool, and it's cool that they'rereferencing the game, because yes, this
is adapted from the game, sowhy wouldn't you reference it. But it's
not like they're like, there's abloater. It's just like, what the
fuck is that thing, which isthe response in the game as well.
I mean, it's not like they'recalling it a bloater in the game,
they're just like, what the actualfuck. So remember, most people haven't

(17:33):
even seen clickers, right, right, Well, and that's the thing with
Henry and Sam. It's like yousaw a clicker. It's like, again,
I like that, And that's whatkind of was feeding into what I
was saying earlier of this idea thatlike, the infected are a threat,
but it's not like everybody's seeing aclicker like, And it would stand to
reason if Henry and Sam are reactingthat way, that if you run into

(17:53):
a clicker, like, your fuckingtoast dead. And so it also makes
sense that no one really would haveseen oats right if people right, So
it's not out of there of apossibility, And I thought that sequence was
pretty awesome. Well, he thebloater kills Perry the way you would die
in the games you got near thebloater, which is which is the gnarliest
way to die in that game withthe bloater just sent sticking his hands in

(18:17):
your mouth and ripping your face off. So I listened to the podcast that
they do the last those podcasts,like Neil Druckman, and he said he
hugely asked them to see if theycould just rip Perry in half. These
like people don't rip well across thewaistline. So they just went with like
what they did in the video game, which is much gnarlier. I think,
like having something stick it's like handsinto your face, yeah, and

(18:37):
then just go is yeah. Imean there's a reason it works in the
game. There's a reason it workshere. And the way that they do
it here works where it's essentially donein silhouette and you don't see anything like
I think that works because again thatthose creatures aren't even the point of that
scene. The point of that sceneis Melanie Lynskey getting to Henry and having
that moment of kind of you knowwhat, what if he was meant to

(19:02):
die? Like all of that justlike posturing shit that Melanie Lynsky is doing
is so good because she's just bythis point, she's just like she ignores
the fact that they're infected. Let'sjust put it that way. What do
you I mean, what do youthink about like the way that whole sequence
was set up, from when Joekills the sniper to the rebels like getting
there to you know, almost killingHenry and then like all the infected show

(19:25):
up, Like how did you feelabout it? I thought it was really
well done for a show that wehaven't seen. Like ostensibly this is like
what the second action set piece we'veseen, because we had Bill and Frank
with that kind of him standing inthe field shoot or like in the middle
of the road shooting at people.And then there's this right, like you
kind of have the one where theyinfected running with Tests sort of sacrifices herself.
Right, it's probably the closest thingwe've had to that. But this

(19:51):
is like really like everything's just happeningonce you if cars going, people shooting,
running, infected humans fighting humans fightinginfected like like the this is like
about as big as it would asanything we've seen in the Last of Us,
and the big as anything I canrecall in the games as far as
like infected being involved. Like inthe game, the sequence is actually you

(20:11):
as Joel as a sniper shooting infectedwhile Ellie and everyone tries to come to
you. Right, So it wascool that they kind of incorporated that as
well. I like, I likedit. I will tell you, like
I haven't I this is where Istopped in the video I haven't gone to
this point in the video game yet. I haven't played it because I just
didn't know pass where I was what, So now I know, and now
I know where I can stop.So I will tell you. The setup

(20:34):
felt Vario Vario Vario Party. Itfelt very video gaming. The setup does
having Joel like again like that,Like when I saw that, I was
like, man, that must bewhat you do in the game, right,
that must be once going on withyou in the game looking down the
stiper scope and like it is right, which is perfectly fine in the in

(20:56):
the scope and scheme of a videogame. It makes sense. I think
it works well enough here. Ithink we've seen things like that before.
But to your point, like,if you've played a video game before,
you've undoubtedly either been the character snipingother people off or the one utilizing the
overwatch of a sniper. So itfelt very like, Okay, if this
is where this is, I betit's just like this in the game.

(21:18):
Outside of that, it was wellshot and well edited. I didn't really
lose track of the action, andthere were moments of I mean, there
were moments where you know, Ellieis in the car and Zoie girl,
yeah, and the clicker little clickersin the car with it like that.
That's a nice kind of moment,a quieter moment in this kind of very
loud action set piece. So Ithink it's nice that they even had in

(21:41):
these bigger kind of action set pieces, some quieter moments. And I like
that the bloater doesn't just show upimmediately. That it's like, you have
all of this kind of stuff goingon and then the bloater shows up,
and that's kind of like the momentwhere everybody's like, we have to fucking
leave now. And I appreciate thattoo. I appreciate that Jole's not like
smile you, son of a bitchJaws style, like blows up the bloaters

(22:03):
and then they just leave. They'relike, let's get the fuck out of
here, And that would be anybody'sreasonable response here, which is why showing
Melanie Lynsky's character doing what she's doingat the end of the scene totally works.
Where she's like, nah, fuckthis, like this has gone to
shit. Now, everything has goneto shit. I am going to come
and kill you if it is thelast thing that I do, and it

(22:26):
is the last thing that she does. Yeah, and she gets it pretty
good, Like she gets it realgood. She gets the shit beat out
of her by and infected like aneye for an eye and in the whole
world goes blind, right, Yeah, So it's like that whole sequence she
gets Henry, and Henry's like,you know, he's just a kid or
a fucking kid or whatever. She'slike, of course, I betrayed your

(22:47):
brother. And she's a kids dieall the time. And she's so matter
of fact that she's right, likeeven before this world, like kids did
die and it didn't justify you know, the kinds of things that Henry did,
Like what Henry did, you couldsay it was a bad thing.
But then like now Kathleen's mel thisis all it drives her, and it's
dooms her rebellion essentially because compounding thatbook, it's compounding bad things with bad

(23:10):
things things and exactly and like that'sa through line. It's like bad,
it gets bad, and then thedecision is do you continue the bad because
something bad happened or do you tryto do something different? Right, And
we'll see where Joel and elligo withthis, and like if they learn or
if they it's unclear, But theinevitability of the ending is feeling more and

(23:30):
more inevitable this show goes on,which which I think, though to be
fair, and I've said this beforeon other podcasts, the best kind of
endings, the most satisfying endings,are the ones that feel ultimately inevitable per
the way the narrative gives, Likethe narrative is leading us to the ending,
and if it feels like all thepieces have set into place, whether

(23:51):
or not we like it, likethe ending, which, like you said,
you resonated with the last of usthe game's ending in a very specific
way, like the puzzle pieces wereout there. You could see how they
got to the ending. Even ifyou don't like it, it felt inevitable.
And like now with the way theshow is kind of being a little
heavy handed, but heavy handed forthe sake of argument is what it feels
like. The inevitability of where we'regoing feels inevitable now, Like it feels

(24:15):
like this episode, almost more thananything else under this point, feels like,
well, if I was confused orconcerned that they were going to change
the ending, I don't think they'regoing to. Now. They may change
it a little bit, but Idon't think they're going to change the main
beats at this point, I agree, And like Kathleen gets a chance where
Perry's like go, like go back, and she's like no, And then

(24:36):
she gets another chance when she getsup to Joel and them, and like
she holds the gun up to Henryand Sam and then Joel's I just leave
and she's like no again. Ican't even comprehend this idea, Like the
clicker gets her and like that's inher mind, that's justice. Justice is
blood for blood, flesh for flesh, like and I think what the show
is showing us is like it's,you know, a way to think about

(24:57):
justice, but it's probably not themost effective way. And like when that
like drives you and becomes all youthink about, you lose the bigger picture.
Ultimately, the reason they're in situationwhere there's Fedra and when Fedra's being
like shitty and why her brother's leadingrebelling is because of the infected, right,
and to the point of well,you know, the people. We
don't really see it in the show, like she's almost acting like that's not

(25:18):
a huge priority, and it is. It's way more than finding Henry and
Sam. It's the priority of theworld is to keep your people, especially
especially you are now the leader ofthese people. You're supposed to shepherd them
and like like her brother would have. And and that's the thing, Like
she is a shitty leader. Sheis focused. Like shitty leaders do not
put themselves and their causes before theirpeople, and they don't hoist their people

(25:41):
on the patard of their causes,which is what's going on here. It's
like you know the military cus right, like, okay, it's effective at
overthrowing, but then you need likeactual like not a general or whatever,
is a leader. You need likesomeone who can lead and manage. So
it's like, yeah, she's shecan get you there, but she's not
very a governing and wartime generals don'tmake good peacetime presidents. I feel like,

(26:03):
yeah, I just and I'm like, Melanie Lynsky's a pretty good I
mean again, like you like yousaid in the game, I'm sure you
see the Fedra age and strung upand stuff, but like to your to
even that end, it's like wouldthat have been what her brother was doing?
Like no, what he know,we know, we know he wouldn't
have right, So like again,like it's it's this further kind of like
perverting of the message of like allright now I'm in charge and I'm going

(26:26):
to utilize his platform to pervert themessage and turn it into this like kill
Fedra fest because again, like ifthey buy them killing Fedra, they doom
themselves, right, like well,because they don't do the one thing that
Fedra was doing, and like theyshe even says her brother told her to
forgive Henry, Like her brother saidthat to her, and she's like,
I don't care. So it's soat this point, it's not really about

(26:49):
what her brother wanted earth keeping hisdream alive. It's just doing makes her
feel good or it makes her feelright. People that rigid don't last,
like and it leads to her doom. And I think it also leads to
a really effective rest spit like theending seems like it's going to be a
happy ending, and then you getsomething. You know, they escaped Kathleen,
but it's like, oh shit,Like no, you didn't, Like

(27:10):
there's still more bad stuff happening.And I know we've talked about Ellie and
like how much we were digging herand stuff. And I think this was
probably the best Bella Ramsey episode.I think her interfaced with Sam, like
you could really see that, likeshe is just a kid, but like
she wants to teach and like sheis learning, but she can also interact
with the adults, and I feellike she's starting to come into her own

(27:33):
a bit more. Not this wasthe episode I think she shined the most
for me. I agree, Idid myself a disservice by watching some Bella
Ramsey and Pedro Pascal HBO like promotionalstuff where she looks more like the nineteen
year old that she is and lesslike the fourteen year old she's portraying on
the show. But to your point, her and Sam playing off one another
allows her to feel like a kidthe way the show wants us to and

(27:57):
the way the game does, becausethe game makes her feel like more of
a kid, But I mean BellaRamsey is good enough of an actress that
you kind of forget her actual agebeing yeah, she looks young enough.
Yeah, she looks young enough whereit's like I can forget. But again,
she's a good enough actress where shecan rise to the occasion when when

(28:18):
it's needed to be a little bitmore adult. But she is also a
good enough actress that she can bemore childlike and it's believable, and her
and Sam feel less like Yeah,it feels like less like an adult and
a kid, but more like twokids together, which is not something we've
seen with Ellie at all in thisshow. It's been her around adults and
now her around someone younger than her. She takes on kind of a mentorship

(28:44):
brother sister role, but at thesame time, like it doesn't feel it
feels more brother sister than Henry andSam do, because Henry and Sam feel
more father and son. Yeah.Yeah, I mean Henry is his brother,
but I mean he is his caretaker, like right, And I think
by making Sam younger, like itmakes it even more like that than in
the game, Like, did youknow where the Henry Sam's story was going?
Have you gotten that far in thegame. No, but I knew

(29:04):
it wasn't going to end happily becausenothing in this show Slash movie ever does
show Slash game never does. Imean, nothing happens in the game that
doesn't end up having something like negativesmashed right on it. Like I love
his little like writing pad, Likethey're so genius, I feel like deaf,
Like obviously that's like the right,right, it's infinitely really usable.

(29:26):
Like um, like that conversation herewith Ellie though about like you know,
an internal monster, and like thefact that she even tried to heal him
with her blood, like it showslike, you know, maybe she's starting
to kind of honestly like get higherand own supply, but you know,
like believe like I can actually dosomething. Obviously, just rubbing her blood
isn't enough, but but the factthat she was willing to try that,
and like her first instinct wasn't totell Joel and it was like, let

(29:48):
me see if I can fix this, because I want this kid to survive.
And unfortunately he gets infected and youknow, at least to the end
you talk of the ending sequence,Yeah, the ending is pretty rough.
I mean, the there's no wayit wasn't going to be. But Sam
attacks Ellie. They do the outin from another room and it wakes everybody

(30:08):
up. Sam's bitten because of theright we never see similarly to tests,
we never see when he was bitten, but he was bitten at some point
on the leg by it infected andhe in the middle of the night turns
as you would expect him too,because he's more than likely not immune.
And then he and Ellie fight througha doorway essentially into the next room,

(30:33):
and Joel goes for the gun.Henry grabs the gun, points it at
Joel, then points it at Sam, then shoots Sam, then goes,
what have I done? I can'tbelieve I did that, then shoots himself.
It is an emotionally exhausting sequence,and I expected it to be,
Like I wouldn't expect anything less fromthis show. I mean, look,
it's a it's a pretty neat littlesubversion. I mean, I think if

(30:56):
you saw this episode and you'd neverseen the show or the game, I
think you would think something is upwhen you see them in the hotel after
everything happened. I'm sure you'd belike, oh, there's something else going
on. Maybe, but that doesn'tdiminish the emotional impact because we've gone on
a journey, even if it isone episode essentially with Henry and Sam,
and these are characters that I thinkare likable and are not like Melanie Lynsky,

(31:19):
where it's like, all right,she kind of deserved it. Like
this is you understand why Henry doeswhat he does, even if I could
not condone it anymore than a lotof people would, because suicide, I
mean, suicide something hard to watchin media and like it's it's hard and
they don't show it, and I'mglad, but again, like the scene
is emotionally impacting enough that I justit's it's it's yeah, it's it's rough,

(31:44):
but I think it's I think it'seffective. Yeah, it's I mean
that that's taken to h straight outof the game, Sam attacks Ellie,
Henry shoots him, and then likein the realization of what he's done,
he doesn't even have time to process, just puts the gun on himself because
he's lost the one thing that he'sbeen tasked to protect. And there's actually
like a quote that Kathleen said earlierthat I think is very central to the

(32:07):
last the story of the last ofus, and she says, you think
the whole world revolves around him talkingabout Sam, that he's worth everything,
and like we see, I meanthat's like like if I could say that
one quote, what is the lastUs? That's what I would say.
And Henry like, to him,Sam was everything and maybe he could have
had a life afterwards and come withthem or gone on his own, but

(32:29):
he's just so like in it,I can't believe what he's done. And
Joel tries to calm him down,but yeah, it just turns the gun
on himself and it is tragic.Like I feel like that was more tragic
than anything we've seen because Joel didn'treally have a choice when it was about
losing his daughter, right, Tesschose to sort of go out the way
she did, but she was gone. Like Bill and Frank actually kind of

(32:51):
had a weird happy ending. Thisis not kind of not kind of They
did have a happy They had theirown happy ending. They were going to
get the happiest to bed things thatthis show will ever grant any of the
characters. I think I could saythat. I think I could say that
concretely that there will be no setof characters in this show that get a
happy ending the way those two dideven close to a happy ending. But

(33:12):
Henry, even losing Sam could haveyou know, made a life and but
he just couldn't fathom it, Likehe could have gone on with Ellie and
Joel. Yeah, and maybe ifhe had more time, like process would
happened, but it's just so rapid, you know, and give himself time,
which I mean again, like Ihave never been in that situation,
so I can't imagine what a fictionalcharacter is going through. But that felt

(33:37):
inevitable. That didn't feel like therewas any way that he wasn't going to
do that if that happened. Soyou felt like when you saw that happen,
you weren't like, oh, he'sgonna go with you thought, oh,
I was like there waiting for thatmoment to happen because he's not going
to give that gun to Joel.It's just not going to happen. And
again, like it makes sense fromthe way this character was written and the
sacrifices that the character had made forhim to go. I just shot the

(33:59):
person and that I did all ofthis four and I didn't have a choice
in the matter. He didn't havea choice, Like he shot him because
he wanted to. He shot himbecause he literally had to and right,
And I think it's I think it'sthat moment of like because I'm sure if
you put yourself in the shoes ofthe character, it's partially I just had
to kill my own brother, butit's also putting into perspective everything that happened

(34:22):
in the evening before and how nowlike they're they're on the other side of
it. And it did, likeyou said it, the shadow of Melanie
Lynsky's character looms large even at theend of this episode because because of her
this happens almost directly. And thenyeah, because she pursued them, right,

(34:42):
And then you get the sequence whereJoel and Ellie are burying them,
which is like I was watching thatand I was thinking, like, you
know, Joel probably wouldn't bury people, like going back to the he's very
practical or pragmatic, right, likehe cared. I think he did care,
Like I think he did connect rightwith Henry in san and Ellie did.
But I think they did that moreit was more for Ellie's benefit than

(35:07):
I don't think Joel would have donethat in a normal circumstance with someone like,
he didn't bury Bill and Frank,right, Um, I also ask,
yeah, he's at the first people. I think he's had the opportunity
to Bury's kind of what it feelslike. Yeah, I guess he didn't
bury Bill and Frank. He didn'tbury his daughter. Best we can tell,
I'm assuming maybe he did. Again, we never see that. It's

(35:27):
never mentioned in the game. LikeTess, he didn't get to Bury in
the game, she's shot dead andthere's nothing left to barry. I don't
know. I'm with you, Ithink again, like it goes back to
what I was saying last episode,where Joel is a softer character in the
show than he is in the game. The character in the game would not
have done that. I agree withyou, But I think that to have
Pedro Pascal not but also but tohave Pedro Pascal and Ellie Arabella Ramsey not

(35:53):
bury these two characters, I feellike that's more also for the audience's benefit,
right, Like you would made youfeel like they're not emotionally into in
characters, even on a base level. If they're not willing to bury the
two people that help you get themout of Kansas City. How did you
feel about like, like, whatdo you think Joel's thinking in that moment
as he's burying them? And youknow, I leave, it's that thinks

(36:14):
say, I'm sorry it leaves.I mean, I know what Neil Druckman
and Craig Mazin have said, andI think that they've done a pretty good
job of kind of giving us asan audience a consistent lingering shot on Pedro
Pascal is always a good thing becausewe just get to see the emotions that
he can kind of embody and conjureup as an actor. And I mean,

(36:36):
look, look, if you don'tknow where this is going, you're
in for it. Let's just putit that way. If you do know
where this is going, we're stillin for it. Because like you and
I both know this show is endingis going to be rough, Like it's
gonna be real rough. I don'tthink people are ready for it. And
I think people are going to bereally angry because you were really angry,

(36:58):
but like anger in like anger notat the narrative, but anger at this
is like this makes sense. Ijust can't believe you're actually doing it,
And like it's that it's that yousee that look on his face that he
knows he's going to have to makea choice and that choice may impact him
negatively. Whatever it is, Ithink it's that he's he's turning into Henry
like, like he's like the wayHenry felt about saying, I'm like,

(37:21):
for the first time in whatever twentyyears, I'm starting to like feel this
thing again where I'm gonna put someoneabove me, right, whether it's right
or wrong thing to do. Like, I mean, obviously, Ellie is
like a his like is an analogfor his daughter, right. I don't
know if he's thinking like this,she is my daughter right now, but
we're seeing that open and then he'slike, well, you know what happens

(37:42):
in a situation like this happens likeyou know what what would like what would
Joel do? And I think Ithink that's the rest of the season,
is what would Joel do? Um? Yeah, I mean yeah, I
think you know, obviously the show, this is a pivot point for the
show. Right, We're about tobe going to Wyoming. We're finally going
to see Joel around a character thatwe haven't seen him around at this point,

(38:04):
which is his brother, and likewhere it goes from there is going
to be drastically different from what we'veseen so far, and I'm excited for
that, but I'm also kind ofapprehensive because I have liked everything that we've
seen so far, so I wonderwhat this pivot is going to look like
and what the showrunners are going tohave in store for the next kind of
half, because it's probably the nexthalf of the show, right I think

(38:28):
the next half is probably going tobe continuing the story of Ellie's journey to
the West Coast because this has beenlike it's been, that's been the main
point here. But the last coupleepisodes feel like they're kind of trying to
get us to understand the message ofthe show more than anything else. It's
getting us to a place, butalso like really starting to solidify that Joel

(38:49):
in all the relationship, which Iknow a few episodes ago you weren't you
weren't buying it totally like you weren'tbuying that it's going to be where it
takes to be. And I thinkthey're doing the work. And honestly,
three of the five episodes so far, even of the Bill and Franklin,
might be more memorable because it's alittle more idiosyncratic. This I think was
the best episode of the show tome. Like you had the action,
you had, the tragedy, youhad the really you had the good joel

(39:12):
in Elie dynamic, and like ithad it had everything, had the darkness
of the people that had the courtaccepts um and it had some like strangely
questions, had some questionable ethical dilemmas. So so I feel like it's like
Part and Parcel with the Last ofUs at display questions. Yeah, but
I mean I was like, thishas everything I could possibly want from this
show. Was like this episode likeit was hard for me to poke any

(39:36):
hole or complaining about the thing.I was like, no, this gives
me everything I could possibly want.Uh, you know, if I wanted
like maybe I said, oh,it's almost too close the show. But
even like the little details they changed, like making Sam younger and death and
making the sniper in the house anold man rather than just like some goomba
who you know wants to kill you. That's a different video game. Pal,

(40:00):
sorry Chris Pratt, don't come back. Let go. But uh but
yeah, I just like I'm like, all right, you know what they
realize the stuff that works narratively,and the little things they're tweaking make it
a more effective narrative. Like thelittle changes they've they've done, I think
every single one of them, I'dbe like, yeah, that makes sense,
Like I like it. Okay,let's see what happened to enter agents

(40:21):
and who's leading that. Let's youknow, let's see what happens, you
know to someone who's lived in aworld for this long, like that old
guy, Like how they would feelif they were given a chance to keep
living or not. Like so allof these things I found it just made
really good. And the you know, we take get an extra conversation with
Ellie and Sam, and Ellie triesto help Sam like that was all new

(40:42):
and just adds context of the charactersand change the character, but just makes
us a little bit closer because onething we have in the show where I
don't have a game, is likewe don't eat constant action or for momentum,
and we don't just have to focuson our two leads. We can
kind of lift the world around them, breathe and let them like by being
more passive and how we're consuming it, it makes this show, I think
click from like a more where it'sholistic, but like we can see it

(41:05):
from a broader perspective, and Ifind that's working really well well. I
think that that ultimately, if youor I or anybody worth their salt as
a writer or adapter or producer,we're making this show. That's the important
thing here is less on the groundconstantly, but more understanding how the world
exists as well and we And againthere are ways they do that the video

(41:25):
game, like the notes that youcan find which they reference here in the
game they reference is in the show, and they have that in the bunker
that they kind of find, whichis again literally only for like a certain
group of people who are watching theshow, right, because that means nothing,
right, that means nothing to alarge portion of the people watching the

(41:46):
show. So all of that aside, I think you're right. I mean,
it would have been a mistake tojust focus on Ellie and Joel the
entire time, because that is thegame that if you want, that's the
game, because you don't play asanybody else in the game, your Joel
the entire time. It's the Joeland Joel and Ellie story from start to

(42:07):
finish. I like that the show, to your point, is not less
interested in telling their story, butmore interested in telling a whole story of
the world and how the world isexisting and these two people's place in it.
And I think that the intro forthe show does a good job of
informing what this show is going tobe. The opening animation shows the world

(42:30):
and then you see the two people, but the world. I mean again,
this is ultimately a world spanning issuethat these two characters are at the
center of the rest of the worlddoesn't even know that, and the weight
of the world is on their shoulders, and I think that maybe that's being
underplayed, But I think it's alsoimportant because by the end of the show,

(42:52):
we'll get to see what it meansto internalize that knowledge and also disregard
it in a way. And I'mexcited to see where the show goes from
here, because to your point,it feels like from here on out we're
gonna get to see the real show, Like we're gonna get to see what
this show actually is gonna be forthe next five episodes five four or four
or five, whatever it is.But this was the halfway point now,

(43:15):
so I think from here on outWe're going to see a very kind of
tonally consistent show, and it's gonnabe a little bit different than what we've
seen because the characters don't have tobe traveling constantly. They can kind of
sit around and wait and have moreof a quieter moment with some of these
characters, like Joel's brother. Sowe'll see. I'm excited this. I
mean, this is this is themoment where the show may pick up or

(43:37):
it may stumble. I don't know. I mean, you know, again,
it's gonna it's gonna be interesting eitherway if it's anything like like you
seem to be finding the main beats, like it's not getting much happier,
Like we're gonna have I think,a lot more focused on the human element
and like the darkness that is withinthe people and how different people are surviving.

(43:58):
And so yeah, it's gonna beinteresting to see how that translates to
the screen. And I'm interested tosee like how much more clicker stuff they're
going to incorporate within this show aswell. Like I wonder if it's not
a deal breaker anything, but Iwonder if, like you know, this
is the last we've seen them Alot of clickers for a while. Is
that the case in the game.No, I mean they're they're constantly throughout,
but obviously it's they're they're rarely themain thrust of the story. It's

(44:22):
more of like you're getting through themto get to the next place you want
to get to. You're getting throughthem to get the next place you want
to get too. So obviously youdon't need that in this right, Like
we don't need to follow Joel andEllie for four hours straight walking. Yeah,
if I clicker would be interesting.But I wonder if, like,
are they going to continue to bethis just kind of in the background,
or we're going to still get moreof like the like we got in this

(44:44):
episode, sort of more traditional zombietype of feel. So I'm just curious
to see how they how they handleI think they've been doing a good job
of balancing both so far. Iagree. I mean, it's it's it's
a this kind of thing really isa balancing act, because you don't want
it to be a typical zombie showlike The Last of Us could be,
which is the Walking Dead or allthese other shows and properties that are just

(45:05):
you know, it's just a zombiething. But like this. I feel
like this is trying to be moreand I think it's succeeding at being more.
But whether or not that success willcarry through to the rest of the
season and then a second season,yeah, I think, to your point
remains to be seen because some peopleare watching this show for the zombie adjacent
stuff, not everybody, but youknow, I mean again, like,

(45:28):
if you've seen the source material,you know what the expectations are in a
lot of ways. And I thinkfor me, as someone who hasn't finished
the first game but has been playingalong with the show, it has done
a good job of kind of satisfyingwhat I was hoping the show would be
from a purely zombie court accepts adjacentthing. I think it's succeeding. I
wonder, Yeah, because to yourpoint, like some of this is just

(45:51):
about how bad people are, whichhas nothing to do with zombies or zombie
related things. So I think itkind of takes a lot of the things
at the Walk and Dead try todo it didn't some way as well,
but maybe do the nature just wantingto lasted so long. But I think
they're doing it a bit more effectivelyand concisely. I think they're being a
little subtler about it and a littleless heavy handed, and when they are

(46:13):
being heavy handed, it doesn't feeloverbearing like with Metalinnie Lynsky's character, like
that's intentionally overbearing and it totally works. If it were The Walking Dead,
it would feel it would feel likeNigan does, where it's like all right,
we get it, like all right, like you're gonna keep going just
doing that one thing, all right, Like we're just gonna give him a
lot of time too, all right, Okay, yeah, and it's like

(46:35):
to that point, like you knowwhat a character like Nigan survived that long
if they were just like that allthe time for a long extent period time,
we see like Las what says myou know you got to adapt,
Kathy, Right, you're not goingto adapt. You're gonna get fucked by
these things because you're too busy focusingon this other thing and everything is dangerous,
right, not just one thing.So yeah, great episode, Like

(46:58):
yeah, it's like I don't wantbe like ten out of ten. But
I was like I can't really complainabout anything this episode, so maybe it
wasn't a talat ten again. Ikind of just had the problem with the
early YadA yadding. But I meanagain, like the show hasn't done a
lot of YadA yadding up until thispoint, so I kind of maybe should
give it a little bit more ofa pass than I have. But I
agree you were you might not seeingenough of the doctor. You're the actor.

(47:20):
I'm glad he came I'm glad hecame back. I'm glad he came
back. I'm glad they brought Johngets back. I mean, hey,
I'm not going to complain about that. I mean again, but it was
a little like just YadA YadA,like we gotta get like I get it,
like I get it. I getwhy they did it, but like,
even for this show, it felta little atypical for this show.
I get why they had too.Should they have given Henry and Sam an
entire episode? I don't know,another if another show might have this show

(47:44):
didn't, like you know, Imean again, another show would have given
Bill and Frank less and given Henryand Sam more like that. That's in
my mind, it's kind of that'skind of where this pivot point is,
right, Like, if it wasn'ta Bill and Frank episode, they probably
would have given Henry and Sam awhole episode, So I think the way
it panned out, I'm okay,six dozen half the other I think the
Bill and Frank episode was so unexpectedlygood that this episode is good. I

(48:06):
think this episode had different directions.It could have gone and built those characters
out more, but by the endof it, I mean, it tells
such a compelling story that, yeah, you're just exhausted at the end of
this episode because it's a lot andthat is this show, Like this show
reflects the video games claustrophobically overwhelming naturereally where where it's like you can't everywhere
you look, it's awful and youjust can't. There's no escape. Even

(48:30):
when you do think you escape andyou're in a hotel room and there's nothing
and you think you've gotten away,you can't escape it. And like that,
I appreciate that about this narrative becauseyes, it is overwhelmingly depressive,
and it is overwhelmingly just like constantlybeating you over the head with how terrible
the world is. But with thiskind of narrative, it kind of needs

(48:52):
it because, like they're they youhave to understand, like we've been talking
about the depths to which society hassunk which couldn't, which then informs the
length of which people are willing togo to achieve whatever it is for whatever
reason. And for this show specifically, it's talking about how does like you've
mentioned, how does love factor intomaking decisions that are beyond unpalatable almost without

(49:16):
any other reason. So I'm I'mexcited. I mean again, I'm still
on board with this show. Theshow is. I think we'd both agree
the show's really good, which inand of itself is not surprising anymore that
it's good. But if you hadtold me before the show aired, like
we would be really enjoying the showa lot to be like good because again,
it's a video game thing. Yeah, and like video game things,

(49:37):
aren't this good normally. If ever, frankly, I kind of forget that
this is a video game sometimes,which is you know, a good thing.
Really? Yeah, No, Ithink it's great. Can't wait for
next week's I hope we have asuper Bowl every week, so we get
it two days early, right,super Bowl? Super Bowl. I'm sorry,
I'm sorry, Roger Gadell, I'msorry. When will the Owl be

(49:58):
here? He's given in the brainscrambles, that's the Brain Scramblings episode,
isn't it. Yeah? Yeah,hey, uh see that show. That
show is a good palate cleanser forthis show. Watch an episode of this
show, then watch like four episodesof that show. Actually some episodes of
more death than Last of Us does, but it's a it's a lot easier

(50:21):
to fault swallow. Yeah, boy, and that the case. So on
the next episode of Mushrooms and thenwe're gonna be talking about the sixth episode
of the Last of Us, whichis titled Kin. Until then, Yeshar
and I can be found at weirdingwaymediadot com, where him and I do
a little show called Game of Bros. House the Dragon, where we talked
about another show that was really surprisinglygood, more surprisingly good than this one.

(50:44):
Was like, yeah, yeah,this was I don't think this was
gonna be bad, but that showI had no expectations for it. So
next one's called Kin. So Imean, Tommy, it sounds like it's
probably gonna yeah, oh yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah, I forget
you don't watch the post episode teaser. So I did watch the interview,
but I didn't see the teaser fornext episode, so I missed that day.

(51:06):
Yes, they like the first dayin the show was like Tommy like
Pedro Pascal saying it and then likethem hugging. So yeah, I look,
I'm excited to see an injection ofnew characters and kind of what they
bring to the Ellie and Joel dynamics. Yeah. Yeah, because Tommy's interesting
character in the games. I thinkin one I like him more than in
two, so I think I'll enjoyhim, and I like Diego Luna.

(51:28):
I say this is a ghostwriter trutherbecause he was an agency Shield his ghostwriter
for like a couple episodes, likehalf a season. He's supposed to get
his show. But you know,I feel like a lot of people can
say that about Marvel. We weresupposed to get this. I'm sure you
were any justice for ghostwriter. Maybesomeday we'll Maybe someday I will do Agents
a Shield something. I've never watchedthat show, and I've heard how weird

(51:50):
it is. It's so good,it's so good. Oh are you being
serious? Bro? Bro? Butthe thing the Shield is the first season,
the first like half of the firstseason is like just okay, you're
like uh, But then when itgets because the first few seasons especially we're
really in concert with the Marvel movies, like where things happen then like really

(52:14):
went into the show once the Whichersoldier thing happens, where like hydra shield
and obviously it's called the shields.Hows it impact them? Like once that
twist happens, it's just straight fireinteresting banger after banger after banger after banger
after banger after banger, and it'sweird after banger after banger after banger.
I've know you're the only person Iknow who watched that show and has anything

(52:35):
to say about it. So it'sBanger's only bro bangers only bangars bus.
They're going on the bus to thebangers. They're going on the bust of
the bangers. Yes, and themashum everyone in between episodes of Blast of
us watching him some shield please.That's a weird counterpoint, but hey,
I'm here for it. I'm herefor it. But yeah, you can
find more of your share and Italking esoterically about pop culture over at weirdingmedia

(53:00):
dot com. As for this show, can you find us, Yeah,
weirding way Media. So yeah,check us out there, follow us there,
like, rate and review the show. Wherever the hell you get it
being Spotify, iTunes, or whateverplatform you're pulling us into your lives through.
As always, we'll be back onthe next episode.