Episode 6: Kin

HBO's The Last of Us is an adaptation of the award-winning video game from 2013 that allowed the players to explore the infection-ravaged United States while playing as the two leads Joel and Ellie who are tasked with getting Ellie to the safe zone as she may carry the key to their survival.

Join The Kulturecast's Chris Stachiw and Game of Bros' Yashar Pirasteh as they talk all about episode six "Kin". We finally make it to Jackson, Wyoming where we get to meet Tommy and a whole raft of folks who've made a good living in the post-apocalypse.

For more episodes of Of Mushrooms & Men along with many more podcasts that are guaranteed to be your new favorite audio obsession, check out Weirding Way Media at weirdingwaymedia.com.

Episode Transcript

(00:19):
Hello everyone, and welcome to ofMushrooms and Men, a last of this
podcast. I am one of yourhosts, Chris, and I'm joined by
my good friend. He's a clickerwho clickly clacks all the way down the
track, but not in this episode, because there's is this a zombie show?
You're a friend of mine? Hey, Chris, I love zombies.
And how many of them they werein this episode? None? None?
Zombies? They don't call them.First of all, we don't call them

(00:42):
zombies. We call them the unvaccinated. Sorry, they're trying to all now
I get all. The subtext ishappening in real time on this episode of
motions, we're gonna be talking about, well, we're gonna be talking about
the sixth episode of the Last ofUs. HBO's latest add of tape is
something that they didn't own to beginwith. That episode is titled Kid.

(01:03):
The episode aired February nineteen, twentytwenty three. It is directed by Jezmila
Zambinich, and it stars once againPedro Pascal and Bella Ramsay along with us
some new faces. We get tosee Gabriel Luna. Finally, we get
to see Elain Miles Graham, Greenand Routino Wesley as well rounds out this
episode's cast, and we finally getto see what Joel's brother has been up

(01:25):
to since the last time we sawhim, which was literally the first episode
of this show, about halfway throughthe first Stepode. I guess two thirds
of the way through the first episodeof the show was the last time we
got to see mister Gabriel Luna.But Joel and Ellie have finally made it
to Wyoming and we're about to findout a whole lot about what's been going
on with his brother, the firefliesand everything else. So y share,

(01:46):
tell me what you thought of thelatest episode of The Last of Us.
I mean, it's just like reallygood and it's consistent and the performances are
good, and it's not that differentfrom the game, which I know I
keep saying, but that doesn't matterbecause it just has such like a good,
strong foundation and every time they dosomething that deviates or just adds a

(02:09):
little bit of color to the world, like I really enjoy it. And
it's like to the point that openingseven Gray Green and I forgot the actress's
name, but like just add alittle color to the world and like also
we get I like the emphasis thatyou know, people can live in this
world and it's not all just dour. I mean, it sucks, but
it's not just momentously like moment bymoment, every moment is just absolute shit,

(02:31):
misery, porn type of like nihilisticexistence that you've seen a lot of
other types of content and not TheLast of Us hasn't had pockets of that.
But it's nice, but you getsomething a little different. So yeah,
I mean it's it's a great show, and I think the Joel and
Elli dynamics really coming along a lotmore and we've been hitting on that last
few episodes. But I really don'thave any plants. I mean, maybe

(02:53):
you want a bit more like actionwith the clickers, but I actually don't.
Ever, I didn't find myself thinkingabout them once outside of just the
context of, you know what,the environment of the show was well,
And what's interesting about that as assomeone who again is playing the show or
playing the game while watching the show, it's feeling more and more like the
game parts of the game where you'reactually doing things like fighting infected in people

(03:16):
like now, like the quality ofthat in the game is obviously really good.
It's really well done, right,Like The Last of Us is a
really good third person action adventure game. I think we would both agree.
It's funny how much of all ofthat is just trappings in between things going
on. It has never felt somuch like that before. But in a
way that I don't mind that.It's just like, oh, by the

(03:38):
way, if you were playing this, there would be things that are happening
that you're not getting to do,like seeing them fighting infected, seeing them
fighting more clickers, Like you haveto assume that they've been fighting infected on
their way to wyoming this hole.Yeah, yeah, for sure, and
maybe even bandits. But like,I mean, it's it hasn't been.
There's no way it had just beencompletely smooth sailing. Like we see Ellie

(03:59):
now Joe lets her carry a gun, right, that's like a big leap
in the trust since because the episodeopens with we see Sam and Henry's death,
quite impactful, let's do this please. I Actually at first I was
like, oh, that's successive,but then I was like, actually it
helped with the three months later togive some context where we saw them last,
which is where they are now.Actually I found that quite impactful.

(04:21):
I felt like the last episodes endingkind of undercut it though the way the
last episode ended, where we havethem actually on the other side of Sam
and Henry and burying them, likein a lot of ways, I think
it might have worked better if thathad been the opening of this episode,
so we could see kind of theaftermath and the last episode, I think

(04:42):
it would have been more successful ifit had just cut with Henry killing himself
and then you see it a littlebit of the aftermath here, which allows
you to give that moment a littlebit more time to breathe, because it's
jarring to have it open with aflashback and that's like three months later,
It's like whoa show? Like,I think it would have worked narratively a
little bit better. I mean,minor quibble, but just in the terms
of if you're going to show usthis again, it's a thing that again,

(05:05):
I'm not sure either one of uswanted to see again, but yet
here we are and they're showing itto us again. Like, I think
it would have worked better if insteadof showing it to us again, it
would have just put it put thatconclusion of everything where they're burying them and
we see the little you know,the payoff of the little thing that Ellie's
been writing on. I think itwould have worked a little bit better if
that had been the beginning of thisepisode. And then we have them walking

(05:27):
off because he you know, hesaw her walking off at the end of
last episode, and it's this momentwith Pedro Pascal kind of staring at her.
I think it would have worked betterif he had followed her. And
then it's three months later, andthen it's this because again, like it's
it's so abrupt the way this episodeopens, and it's really jarring, like
and it was intended that way clearly, but I just think narratively, I

(05:49):
don't need to be bombarded with peoplekilling themselves back to back times. Like
it's a little it is just alittle much. But that being said,
like this episode's fine, it's frue. I mean, it's a lot of
setup, but it's important, likecharacter work. Right, It's a very
slow episode of this show in away that is appreciated given that the last

(06:10):
two game in three episodes have beenrather go go, go, go,
go, go, go go go, And we're finally okay, we're able
to take a breath they're able toeat a hot meal for the first time
and forever. They're able to takea shower and all that. Like best
we can tell, a lot ofthose things were not able to be achieved
by them in the last three months, so it's nice to see them kind
of get a moment of reprieve.Obviously by the end of the episode that's

(06:32):
not the case. But I likedall the stuff in Jackson. It works.
It doesn't feel unrealistic, you know, because again this show is hewing
close to realism, which I appreciatebecause again, I mean, that's the
thing I always think about with azombie apocalypse. It's like all the things
that would have to go bad wouldhave to go bad so badly that we
would all be gone, like pocketsof people finding a way to survive,

(06:56):
people out in the middle of nowhere, not ever being bothered by zombies anymore
than they're being bothered by real peopleright now. Like you know, like
I think a zombie apocalypse maybe soundsmore interesting than it would actually be,
because it would be more just likeit isn't in the Last of Us,
where it's like just don't go tothe cities like life has been changed in
this world obviously in a substantive way. But I mean, if you look

(07:19):
at what's going on in Jackson inthis show, it's not different from probably
the way people were living in Jacksonbefore the fall happened. Yeah, I
mean it was interesting because we sawthis like other way to live, right,
That's what Jackson showed us, anactual sustainable way of living in this
world past the fall of the Fallof the cities. Again not really humanity.

(07:41):
There are so many people still alive, like like we saw in the
opening scene, like the best we'veseen, like like for an entire size
is essentially like the Boston Fedro,which wasn't the best but it was okay,
clearly better than most other ones,though better than KC. But yeah,
it was cool. Like we seeJoel finally reunite with Tommy Diego Luna,

(08:03):
uh, you know, was reallyeffective as like a like sort of
a bifurcation, like Joel went thisway and Tommy went the other way,
where he like is hopeful and optimisticand looking for purpose, whereas Joel is
just trudging along actually like actively tryingto avoid any attachments um and he lives
in the society and the whole communistcommune part was quite funny. Uh,

(08:24):
Joel, can't let it go brother, Like, dude, it doesn't matter
anymore. It cracked me up whenwhen Ellie's like can I have some of
that liquor and Joel's like no,It's like dude, what who cares?
Like like why what? Like?What? What? Fucking I mean?
You don't want? You don't what? You don't want a drunk like fourteen
year old Like yeah, but likegiving someone alcohol to warm them up as

(08:45):
a thing, and it's the literalpost apocalyptic wasteland. Like I appreciated that
little moment because again, like it'sit's a moment that makes I'm not chiding
it for it not making sense.I'm appreciative that the writers of the show
are giving us a again continuing toreinforce that Joel is quickly becoming her father,
because that's the response her father wouldhave, not a you know,

(09:09):
not just some adult that doesn't knowher. Yeah, you know that's good.
Yeah, I mean they're really likeJoel is. That's why like the
opening scene as let's go back there, Joe, Ellie's holding a gun Joel
trust or even the way she Ellietalks. She's like a mini Joel,
like she's she's essentially taken on hischaracteristics over these last three months, and
he's softened a little bit to heras well. And as Joel leaves that
he has I think people think it'sa heart tack, but it's like it

(09:31):
was clearly a panic attack because he'sfeeling like overwhelmed at the thought of fucking
up and losing her and messing upand making a mistake, and like it
hasn't been all peaches and cream.Yeah, it's like that is the phrase,
as weird as it is. Yeah, and you gotta say peaches and
what were you gonna say? Iwanted to know whatever the other word is.

(09:54):
You were kicking peaches and kang peachesand p It's not all peaches and
pea out here, but you know, and then they go to Jackson and
that dog like could have just endedit there, and they just got lucky
that, you know, the virusdoesn't smell anymore, and Joel once again
kind of feels like, you know, I could have let her down,
even I mean, he don't thinkhe could have really done right. But

(10:16):
so it all culminates that when he'sin this town that's functional and stuff,
and he's like Tommy is in someway stronger than I am. You know,
I don't know if I can seethis like if I fail this again,
like if I fail my daughter again, like I just have, I
can't continue existing. Whereas like youknow, if Tommy loses her, it

(10:37):
would suck, but like Tommy wouldbe fine. I mean it's a bit
selfish because Tommy does have like afamily and now like a future child and
stuff. But like you can,they're they're really emphasizing that there's attached with
the Joel is made with Ellie's almostalmost like paralyzing him. I don't know,
what did you think about? Ifelt like they introduced that too late.

(10:58):
I feel like this should have beenintroduced one or two episodes earlier because
it it I mean, you've yougot to agree. It does come out
of nowhere all of a sudden.Joel's three us right, Well, I
know, but that feels that feelslike a cop out. Now if that's
the you know what I again,like all I'm saying is give us up
more of an idea that this isgoing to be a thing. And again,
if he's if Joel is is externalizingit through dialogue. That's fine,

(11:20):
but now it's like a it's aninternalization of his of his self, and
I just it works, sure,but I wish they had kind of given
us an idea that this was goingto be a thing, or given us
like a moment of this before tosee it like kind of ramping up,
less like oh, it just happened, but more it's ramping up because we
only have three episodes left at thispoint. I think that Henry sam was

(11:43):
like the real turning. I meanit was already getting there, right,
sure, I mean again, yeahI could, I would agree with that.
But then like Henry and say remindedhim of him and Ellie, and
obviously how that ended really cemented Ithink his arena. I think there's like
two keys. It's one is testdying. He went from like I just
gotta do this to like, oh, I'm doing this for her for tests,

(12:05):
and then with Henry and Sammy's likeno, like, I'm actually doing
this for Elliott. I need toI am her protector. And I came
with the same thing that befell Henryand Sam befall her. And obviously they've
gotten even close in the past threemonths and he's like, now he got
from protector to father, right,like he's not gonna say that, And
she's like he even says like you'renot my dad or whatever. And the
show has been so good and sosubtle with it's riding up until this point.

(12:28):
It felt like something that a lesswell written show would do. That's
honestly how it feels. Does thatmake sense the whole like him like oh,
and like like I don't need tosee I weak, Like it's apparent
what's going on here? Like thatfeels like it's for the benefit of someone
who needs that. To understand thatexplicitly, I don't know how else to
put it, Like I'm not tryingto drag it, but as a storytelling

(12:50):
convention that has been used elsewhere,and I wasn't expecting this show to use
it because this show is a ratherwell written show that doesn't resort to typical
storytelling conventions. Right, That's That'smore where I'm coming from. No,
I get that, and I guess, like I think about it, and
I'm like, could we have youknow, got I think the conversations he
and Ellie had were important, butyeah, it did. We need to

(13:11):
see him have a panic attack,probably not like I would have found it
just as effective, but also likeI do have the context of the game,
So I am a I'm probably notthe most objective observer of these things.
Have you seen Ted Lasso? Iam Ted Lasso, an American living
in England. Okay, that doesn'tmake you ted Lasso. That makes you
you. You also, well,you have a mustache led Tasso. Yeah,

(13:33):
you're Dasso. Yeah. I onlyask that because remember ted Lasso.
The first episode of that show,when he goes into the press conference,
you start to see the inkling ofthe panic attack that that character has.
Yeah, and again, like Iget that they're motivated by different things.
But Joel had lost his daughter atthe beginning of the show, effectively,

(13:56):
like by the end of the firstepisode, his daughter has passed away,
and that is something weighing heavily onhim. It's still this is something that
I feel like, just one subtleintroduction of this specific oh I'm having a
heart attack or whatever it's supposed tolook like, that just should have been
something that should have been mentioned ordone one other time. Because again,
where we are now, it's like, okay, like again, I haven't

(14:20):
gotten to this point in the game. This is not a thing that happens
in the game. Is it thepanic attack? I don't think so.
But like there is the time jumpthe three I think there's three months,
but there's a time jump. Theygo to Jackson, they actually don't,
so they spend time in Jackson,which they don't in the game. They
do more just like helping fix somestuff, which I think actually apparent was
for budgetar reasons in the game,but it was cool. I actually like

(14:43):
that changes, Like we have tospend some time in this like I said,
lived in place where people watching movies, they're sharing things, no one's
killing each other, like things workand it's like a nice plus people.
What they said, yeah, somethinglike that, they got to school,
they have religion, but like youknow, non Island, like everyone's just
like getting along. And so yeah, this was like generally following the footsteps

(15:07):
of the game and going to easternColorado. But once again they just they
stopped to spend a bit more timewith the world outside of Elliot and Joel,
and obviously we needed to see Tommyand you know, get that linkage
together as well. Well. Andthat's I was gonna say that's the thing
that works for me is the slowingdown of the narrative really letting us see
the again, like not the restof the world, but the way another

(15:31):
portion of the world is living.Because we saw it in Kansas City.
We saw the Kansas City yo Yo's. We saw the people underneath Kansas City
who were living in the Kansas Citysewers. And now we're seeing people that
are effectively living, you know,in the far northern reaches of our country,
like you know again, like they'reliving out in the will I mean,
not in the wilderness, but likeJackson is in Wyoming, and Wyoming

(15:52):
is a state with not a wholelot. And I appreciate that about the
show because like again, like yes, it makes sense in the narrow of
the game, but the fact thatthe show runners, obviously one of them
being Neil Druckman, recognized that.Like still, I think it still works
because again, they changed it fromPittsburgh to Kansas City, so they could
have changed it to somewhere else,but Jackson is such a big part of

(16:12):
the second game as well, Ithink there's like no way to get around
it. But I like that thisthis show has already put us in Jackson
and seeing things there because I know, I know in the game it doesn't
obviously, like you said, that'sthe second game. A lot of stuff
in Jackson, and then you know, I think this emphasizes why Joe Biden's

(16:32):
infrastructure plan is really important, becauseyou know, post zombie apocalypse, you
got to have the water Damn's working. I like that. I like how
they somehow managed to tap into theelectricity, just somehow, like well,
you know, I did well,I using hydro power, so sure,
I mean it makes sense. Yeah, yeah, but uh so you were
you like the whole Jackson piece,and like, did you like the interactions

(16:55):
with like how'd you golt like DiegoLuna, Gabriel Luna, I mean Gabriel
Luna, Diego Luna. I thinkthat's a different person, and that's indoor,
dude. I haven't seen Gabriel Lunaand a lot of stuff. To
be honest with you, I youknow, we I think we've talked about
this privately about Agency's shield, Yeah, which you kind of in. Yeah,

(17:17):
and I hey, I get it. I remember I've seen that,
I've seen Terminator Dark Faith, sothat's the last time. Yeah, he
sure is unfortunately for him and everybodyelse who was involved in that movie.
Uh, he's fine. I meanagain, Like the character that he's playing
is just kind of a Joel,but like in a different, a different
angle of Joel. He's very similarobviously because he's his brother. And I

(17:40):
again, I like that he's amore even keeled character. But again we've
only seen him in one episode,so we don't know how even keeled of
a character is. Best. Wecan tell he has kind of gone straight,
as you would call it in youknow, in current day parlance,
because he's not robbing people and smugglinganymore. He's living a again, a
communal life with all these people,and I think it's I think he's fine.

(18:03):
I like his interaction with Routina Wesley. I think they're good. I
like Graham Green and Elane Miles.I wish there had been more of them,
to be perfectly honest with you,I mean again, Graham Green is
such a recognizable presence and such afantastic actor, and they gave him like
five lines and he's and him andElane Miles kill it. Like honestly,
this episode is really good from acasting and character interaction standpoint, Like ultimately,

(18:27):
if you were someone watching the show, you'd probably be like, and
you were expecting there to be thingshappening, you might be like, this
is a boring episode, And Iwould understand where you're coming from. But
this show needs these kinds of episodes. And I'm glad that this episode is
essentially just a bunch of conversations beinghad in nondescript rooms. Like that's really
what it boils down to. Andlet you think about like at especially when

(18:49):
they were at dinner launch whatever inJackson, like how aggressive and abrasive she's
like, like I've mentioned before,like she's really taking on more of Joel's
persona and is it because like shethinks that's the way to be. I
mean part of it. She probablydoesn't like fully trust these new people,
but like she is, she hasthis like fierceness, and I think she's

(19:11):
really trying to model herself after whatshe thinks Joel will find like impressive.
Well, and I also think it'sinteresting that you know, you hear Routina
Wesley's characters say like you know,like this isn't the way people here talk.
Yeah, And it's funny to mebecause again like it shows just Ellie
is a different person because of thejourney she's gone on with Joel, Like

(19:32):
she again for all intents and purposeswhen we initially meet her, like she's
kind of a smartass, but notlike Joel amplifies it, right, I
think we both agree, like heamplifies personality traits of hers that are now
like at the forefront. And Ithink that obviously with what the next episode
is, we're going to see youknow where this is all starting from.

(19:53):
Man, we're right, like,it's not surprising what the next episode is.
Like, Yeah, I saw thename of the A Sudden. I
was like, okay, I was, I was like, we called it,
like, I mean, right,there's there's gonna be a there's gonna
be the flashback episode like spoilers,but I mean but not really almost indicates
that it's almost certain to be basedon the DLCUM, which has a heavy

(20:15):
flashback component. But I think it'sit's going to be interesting how they contrast
this version of Ellie the most almostfully formed version of this age Ellie,
because again Last of Us two hasa a more adult Ellie, the Last
of Us one is more of ateenage Ellie. I think it will be
interesting to see what the original characterwas like when she was, you know,

(20:37):
in this flashback it's extended flashback episodethat we're going to see dah and
she was you know, not thatmuch younger than when Joel met her,
but not it was like purely justher without the influence of him, right,
and not as hardened as she's goingto be. Yeah, and I
think that will be an interesting showcasefor the actress. Um And then we
also really like Bella Ramsay by theway she's She's grown on me the last

(21:00):
I think the first couple episodes,I was like, she's not bad,
but I wasn't particularly taken with herperformance. I say the last few episodes
have really warms me up to her. Ellie and I'm I mean, Petro
Pascal has been amazing. He's beenreally emotive to the last few episodes,
like his face and like it's gotthis quiet intensity. But I think we
all know he can act quite well, Like really it's not at least when

(21:22):
we can see his face. Yeah. So I mean, just because you're
good action doesn't mean it shouldn't benoted when you're doing a good job.
But I think it's just less surprised, like it was more expected. So
he's it's it's not his performance isn'tparticularly surprising. Whereas Bella Ramsey, So
I'm like, okay, like shecan do more than just be like the
badass from Game of Thrones, Likeshe's got she's got some range, and

(21:45):
she can do some interesting character beats, and she's changed like episode by episode
she's changing a little bit. Soum, yeah, I really like that.
And then obviously have you not seendid you not see The Worst Wish?
On Netflix? That's the Bella Ramseyshowcase? What the Worst Witch?
It's a Netflix series based off ofa children's book from the nineties that bears

(22:08):
a striking resemblance in a lot ofways to the plot, set up and
world of Harry Potter. And no, I'm not joking. She goes to
a school where they're like sorted intohouses and there's a teacher that's antagonistic towards
her. It's like, look,j everybody has an opinion on jk Rowling
these days, and that's jk Rowling'sfault. But Bella Ramsey is the lead

(22:30):
in that show where she's for fourseasons. Yeah, I'm well aware.
I'm well aware. She's actually prettygood in that show. Like she's a
good part of a bad show.And to your point, if she had
never been in this show, shewould literally probably forever be known as the
character you mentioned, the girl fromI Forget What What house? Is?

(22:53):
She? I forget I forget whathouse? But she gets eaten by a
giant or something. No, shedoesn't get eat him by a giant.
It's like she gets killed in thesheets, the kill we should we ruin
Game of Thrones. I mean,nobody cares anymore, I think. I
mean, she's a cool character,but she's hardly consequential. I mean again,
like, but she's but she's memorableto the point where one of the

(23:14):
reasons she's in this show is bythe strength of the performance in that show.
Because Mason and Druckman reached out toBennie Off and Weiss about working with
Bella Ramsey because again, and wehaven't really mentioned this on on the show,
and I think we should mention it. You know what the initial plan
was for the Last of Us,right, the show or the game.
The game was going was in theprocess of being adapted into a movie,

(23:37):
which, yeah, when Craig Mazinsaw that it was and reached out to
Neil Druckman through of all people,Shannon Woodward of Westworld, which makes me
happy that West World exists in alot of ways. But I think Mason
and Woodward had worked on Druckman.Druckman and Woodward had worked together because she
does the voice for somebody in thelast Yeah she's in I think she's Nina,

(24:00):
right or Dina Dina who's in thesecond one, who's like very important
character for Ellie, and yeah,and yeah, Craig Maazon like, yeah,
it was it was a coincidence.It was like Craig Mazin approached Struckman
and was like, hey, they'returning this into a movie. I think
it should be a TV show.And then I guess he was like,
yeah, you're probably right, whichis like here's the thing, Like I
do want to mention this because wekind of haven't talked about it. This

(24:22):
show would not have worked as amovie. There's no like the game would
not have worked as a movie becauseit would have to be working three and
a half four hours long, likewould happen two more? Essentially yeah,
or kind of kind of like doyou have to think the intermission would have
the intermission would have been the threemonths jump up. Yeah, right,
so like and I'm maybe that couldhave worked. But giving the characters all

(24:44):
this time, I think is morewhat I'm getting at, because this episode
is really an hour of people justtalking and I really appreciated it because again,
like I think, the expectation alot of people have with this show
is it's a zombie show. There'sgonna be zombie shit. It's just like
the Walking's on. He's in theshow, bro, I know, but
it is a zombie show. Itis a zombie show for nine out of

(25:06):
ten people. Then one person that'sthe gamer, gets it. But again
it's a zombie show for anybody elsebecause that's the expectation. And if you
sit down and watch the show thatis going to be completely of your expectations
are going to be obliterated immediately.And that still, for me, is
being done in this episode. Iwas not expecting this episode to grind the
momentum of the show to a halt, and it did, and it actually

(25:27):
succeeded in doing so, which isa feat in and of itself, because
when shows do stuff like this,a lot of people are just like,
well, I'm not into this anymore, or these aren't very or the writing
can't live up to what they're tryingto do, and they also so let's
talk about Eastern Colorado parts. Soobviously, as we mentioned, Joel tries
to get Tommy to take Ellie becausehe doesn't want to like fuck up,

(25:49):
he can't he can't handle it.Basically, he can't handle of Ellie dies.
Guys. Yeah, and he's like, if it happens kind of off
screen, it's better than you know, if I'm responsible for or like,
I think you're younger and stronger andyour your heads on more straight, you
can get the job done where Ican't. Um And he even convinces Tommy
to do it, and Tommy's willingto sacrifice that for him. After like

(26:11):
a few tense conversations about like youknow, Joel not able to overcome his
loss of his daughter, but youknow, Joel eventually tells Ellie like,
you know, you have a choice. Obviously she's gonna choose Joel every time.
And they had the Eastern Colorado Universitywhere the fireflies clearly or not.
But they're like, you know,let's do some digging see where they went.
You have some potentially rabid monkeys.I don't know, something weird's going

(26:33):
on with them. They were escapedfrom the lab where they were being tested.
Sure, yeah, why not,right, CGI monkeys. I'm never
going to complain about CJ CGI baboons. To be more, is now that
that's the crossover. Nobody knew theywere past of Us and Planet of the
Aims. I mean, whoa thatthere? It is, that's what the

(26:56):
court accepts, only infects humans andthe monkeys over after. Yeah. Um,
so then you know they go andthey see obviously the fireflies for whatever
reason, have gone to Salt LakeCity, which is kind of where the
I think kind of climax of thegame show is going to happen because that'll
be the finale. But that's adifferent place than where it takes place in

(27:17):
the game. Yeah, I thinkit was in Seattle. I thought,
Yeah, Seattle's too Oh okay,yeah, two takes a place I think
so, I'm I mean, Icould be wrong, but I'm almost certain
Salt Lake City is. It doesn'tmatter anyway, I mean, look,
we're almost at the end of theshow anyway. If it's not Salt Lake
City and then it's somewhere else,but like best we can tell, that's

(27:38):
the show is on this last threeepisodes, So yeah, two but the
show has eight seven, eight nine. Yeah, you're three left. Yeah,
but technically two. The next episodeis going to be, Like I
mean, if the next episode isnot an entire episode as a flashback,
I'll be surprised. I think I'llbe interested to see how closely it's Jason

(27:59):
the deal see, because the dealssee for people that don't know, is
someone's in the present, like takesplace right after the end of this episode
and someone's like a flashback probably Idon't know how much of that they'll get
into, but yeah, and thenthey see some bandits. Joel gets skanked
by one and like he's obviously therein the winter. Ellie earlier in the

(28:21):
episode says like I'd be fucked withoutyou, or I'd be dead without you,
or something like that, Like sherealizes, like even though she's relatively
competent, like from an emotional perspectiveand an actual physical surround perspective, she
cannot continue without Joel. She doesn'tthink she can in a world like this,
And you know, she's not asurvivalist, So it's going to be

(28:41):
interesting to see how they balance.Like I mean, I think we can
all probably go on a limb andsay, Joel's probably not going to die
in the next episode, but he'snot doing well and she probably can't ride
all the way back to Jackson inthe cold. She i doesn't even know
how to get to Jackson. Solike that's it, isn't It puts her
an interesting spot where like, thisis the first time she's going to really
have to like be more than justa Joel clone. She's gonna have to

(29:03):
be Joel for them, right,And I don't know where it goes past
here. Again, I don't evendidn't really know much of this episode because
I am been negligent of my gameplaying. But yeah, like again,
like the cliffhanger, the cliffhanger inthis episode feels very much like the cliffhanger
at the end of that episode whereHenry and Sam we're pointing the gun at
Ellian. Joel's Like, I appreciatewhat the narrative is attempting to do,
but you haven't tricked me into thinkingPedro Pescal's character is going to die.

(29:26):
It's like it's I mean I getit from like a ratcheting up of the
tension for the people who don't knowthe narrative, but nobody who's played the
game or knows the game would thinkthat the main character of the game would
die in this episode. Like,but I do think it's maybe it does
ratchly up, like okay, butwhat are they gonna do? Like obviously
that's more interesting. He's obviously notjust gonna be fine. So I mean

(29:52):
something has So it's I guess likethat is the thing. It's like we
know something has, but we've boththought the show is trying to bait us
into thinking Joel is dead. Imean I don't well, that's not me
or you doing it, it's theshow doing it. Like that's fine,
Like whatever, I get it.I'd be surprised if if the average you're
left that would be like, oh, he's dead. I think it's more

(30:14):
of like, Okay, they're ina bad situation. How how are they
going to get out of this?Right? It's these like minor flourishes on
the show where it's like I Ijust I'm still wondering if they trust their
audience, like because again, likethey don't want to assume everybody knows the
narrative, that's what this is.And I get it, like I'm I'm
on board with that, because again, this is a very deft balancing act

(30:36):
that Mason and Druckman have been doingwith this show by keeping the people who
know the narrative engaged by adding andbuilding to a world that they've been building
on already in two games, whilealso changing things in a way that's not
going to again, not that itmatters if you piss off the fans,
and it shouldn't matter piss off thebands, but also stay true to the
narrative as it was told there.This is a very deft balancing act that

(30:59):
they're doing, and they're succeeding,and until they stop succeeding, the show
will continue to be very good.I get why they do some of these
kind of dorky little things, butthese dorky little things that they do,
they're doing it for a different subsectionof the audience for the show, and
I can appreciate it and get itbecause again, like if you're a video
game player, you're just going tokeep playing like there is no stop here,

(31:22):
Like this was not this way,This isn't the end of the game
if you're playing the game. Sothis moment in the game is being used
for something differently than it is inthe show, but because of again expectations,
this is the way they actually thereis sort of a similar transition in
the game where Ellie becomes more ofa focal point. Sure, so it

(31:42):
does serve that purpose, Like aswe are kind of seeing she is now,
she is now the like the onethat's steering, she's the one that's
driving. Maybe not forever. Butthey put his death at they put his
death scene at the end of anepisode. That's all I'm saying. I
don't think. I don't know.Look, I would be saying, you
get more than like five percent ofpeople watching this show thought he was dead.

(32:07):
Like but again, I just appreciatethat it exists in the show because
it to me, it shows thatMason and ructmen understand that there are people
watching this that do not know thenarrative. Like, look, if I
have told my folks to watch thisshow, because I think they would enjoy
it. Because again, it issomewhat Mandalorian adjacent in a lot of ways,
it's like a more mature version ofthe Mandalorian frankly, I mean she's

(32:28):
she's baby Yoda, and he's youknow him without a helmet, right,
he's he's he's shows up to theset. Uh, not his body though,
his body. But anyway, ifsomeone like that is watching the show,
who doesn't know the narrative at all, like that's who that's for,
and like that, that audience doesexist. And that's why this show has
been so successful is because it canbridge the gap between the two. And

(32:52):
most of the time video game thingsdon't even bridge the gap. For one,
they're not even successful at being entertainingfor a commonplace, normal Friday night
going audience versus someone who's you know, a Sonic the Hedgehog players since Sega
Genesis came out, Like the Sonicmovie in a lot of ways, is
very similar to this. It balancesthe two. It gives people who know
the narrative something interesting and different,and people who don't something exciting that they've

(33:15):
never seen before. But it's hardto make the two work at the same
time. I'd argue it's you know, even darker. Wow. I like
those Sonic movies. Uh, they'regreat. I haven't seen the second one.
I haven't seen the second one's good, but the first one is real
good. Second one's really good.Jim Carrey is just yeah, he could
retire after those movies and be good, Like I don't think he has anything
else left to say. He's hisbest villain role. Like it's the best

(33:37):
villain he's played, and it's likepure carry like like it's like when you
think of Prime Cary his robotic performancesor just it's literally ace Ventura adjacent.
It's it's all. I mean,it's like it's it's like Jim carresk.
Right, it's like he did thathe did that thing from the nineties one
more time. Like that's what itfeels like because he hadn't done it for

(33:59):
fucking fifteen years. Like I don'tremember the last movie he did where it
was like that brand that carry thaton. Yeah, even his comedies,
like he wasn't necessarily as over thetop, right, and look like again,
like we've we've talked about video gamestuff on this show, but you
know, and again I think itkind of bears maybe talking about a little
bit. You and I are videogamers from long like I you you had

(34:23):
them growing up. I actually roundthem because of you more than anybody else.
I actually was told by my doctorin the C section I was playing
Pong. On the way out,I would have been playing Super Nintendo dinghis.
We weren't born in the seventies.Why why would you be playing Pong

(34:43):
when there were so many of theother options in nineteen ninety I'm not asking
questions why there was a Pong system, had a game Boy in there,
almost a game Boy color, hada game Boy color in the womb.
But you, I mean, that'sone of the things that you and I
have bonded over as friends forever.I mean forever. Literally, I can't

(35:04):
of the things I think of whenI think of my friendship and your friendship.
Comic video games, and movies.Like our pop culture reference points are
very similar. If we not necessarilyagree on all the quality of things.
But if you can quote something tome, I will know what you're talking
about. For the most part,I'm a yeah, like shit like that
Like that for me is again likevideo games are a big part of the

(35:29):
pop culture makeup of the things thatI like. Because I still am a
pretty avid gamer. I game fairlyfrequently, and it's not just multiplayer stuff.
It's a lot of single player stufflike The Last of Us because again
I feel like, and I thinkyou would agree, stuff like the Last
of Us is more a movie evenless than a game. I mean,
it's an interactive movie and it's awell mated game, but like the narrative

(35:50):
is, I'm ultimately the gameplay hasto just get me to the next cut
scene in a lot of ways,like and if I want to go back
through and replay it and do morethings, that's on me new game plus
stuff. But with something like TheLast of Us or God of War,
I'm actively invested in the story andthe gameplay should be good because I don't
want to be bored in between cutscenes. But you could watch The Last
of Us as a movie the gameand those cuts exist on YouTube. I

(36:14):
mean that's like eighteen hours because youdo have to watch some video game playing
footage to understand the context of otherstuff. But I mean again, that's
I feel like more people would beinto video games if there was less of
a hurdle to actually playing. Man, you know what I mean, like
as in getting the actual system,or you mean the act of playing the

(36:34):
time the time I guess, well, in the act of playing video games
is hard, like some people justdon't have the uh not like not skills,
but like the timing. No,I like, some people just stupid.
Some people are some people are notthey're too stupid good at video games
this way, a game like agame like The Last of Us one and
two, along with a lot ofgames coming out, have a narrative difficulty

(36:58):
that is effectively difficult the zero sothat someone who doesn't want to die over
and over again, like in theLast of Us grounded difficulty would can play
the game and essentially enjoy the cutscenes with gameplay in between. Is that
not what narrative difficulty is? Um? I mean I pretty much right.
I guess I've definitely seen that ingames, especially story during games where it's

(37:21):
like you're not gonna die much,it's gonna be like a pretty simple experience.
It's difficult because that's not the point. Yeah, but Last of Us
has that. I honestly don't remember, but I believe you. I think
that we're not trying to belabor thepoint that just it was There's wasn't.
There's the adaptation part that I thinkhas been difficult is around execution, not

(37:42):
around like ideation. Um No,because video games are made essentially on bol
This one was well, sure,but like a lot of video game adaptations
that are good succeed in both camps, the ones that people are kind of
well, the original Mortal Kombat,right, I don't think in execution in
that movie is very great, butI think that they stay true enough to
the idea of the game that it'sentertaining, right, Like, you know,

(38:06):
like they have they have a combattournament. There's Lu Kang and Shang
Song, characters you recognize doing thingsyou recognize. It's not the best movie,
though, because there's some things thatare hard to do with a movie
where it's just a bunch of peoplefighting over and over again. I get
it, but at least in thenineties. But I mean here, the
execution and the idea are so strongthat, like the game was so good

(38:28):
on its own that again we're it'slike, this is a game, but
it's already a movie. It's alreadya movie. Agreed. Yeah, I
think we're just kind of saying weboth be like the episode, we're excited
to see what goes next. Itseems like next episode's probably a flashback.
Then the whole thing's gonna be aflashback probably, Yeah, we'll see,
and I will say we've got tothe point where there isn't an It did

(38:51):
seem like there was going to besome sort of flashback mechanism in every episode,
like that's there's not. It doesn'tseem like they have a template.
Like I will probably see more flashbackgenerally, but I don't think it's like,
oh, it has to be thisevery episode, which I think has
its pros and its cons, likeI do like seeing those those things,
but also it kind of gives themthe flexibility to tell the story they want
to tell in that hour they haveevery week. So I kind of miss

(39:14):
them because again they're just they werefun. They were fun, right,
Like they were some of the betterthings we've seen, like the John Hannah
stuff, the stuff in Indonesia,it was fun. Like I like that
because that's because again, if you'veplayed the game, that's stuff that you
have not seen at all, Likethat is completely one removed from the game.
And that's a show. I meanagain, like you want to do

(39:36):
another show, you could do ashow of that of and you know what,
they probably will given that this showhas been so successful, A prequel
show has already been right, butthey like a prequel show to the Last
of Us that takes place in thetwenty subsequent years. Because dude, that
that's so long, Like that's along TV show that you could do.

(39:57):
Can't wait to see the first ofthem? My god, Oh I'm here,
Craig Mason, all you know youcan have that one. Just just
give me, like a writing lookat a little writing credit. I mean,
HBO is doing the thing with itwith the IT movies where they're doing
what they're doing a like Stories fromDairy Maine, because in the book there's

(40:19):
chapters in between of like this iswhat's been brought on in the city.
Well it's sort of like history ofthe city too, but like they could
do it an they could do anytime. Yeah, I'm gonna watch it
too, because I read it lastyear and that was some of the best
parts of the book, was theworld building, less the like big conflict
at the center of it and didyou did you enjoy the orgy after they

(40:39):
defeated the clown. I mean,it made sense in the book, but
I'm not going to condone it.It makes sense in the book because the
book is very different. The bookis fun. It's fine. It's definitely
the most Stephen Kingy book I've everread. It's like it's the most self
indulgent thing I've ever read. Ihaven't read Infinite Jest, but like it
is a there for just like oneguy who goes all right, every character

(41:02):
needs a backstory, and I'm gonnagive each character as a backstory like five
pages. And it's like Jesus Christ, dude, this book has like seventy
characters. Some dude pumping gas ata gas station gets like five pages of
like explanation. But again it's likeDickenzie and which is Stephen King And that's
what I appreciate about this And that'swhy it's like to, yeah, make
a joke that they could do aLast of Us prequel show. They totally

(41:23):
could. This world is like sowell thought out and the goalposts are rather
wide because again, like they've alreadyestablished different kinds of living situations that people
can have. You can have allkinds of stuff in that twenty years in
between, and honestly, like Iwould be totally interested, because yes,
this narrative is fun, but ina lot of ways, this is like

(41:44):
the Skywalker shit from Star Wars,like this stuff is interesting, but everything
else happening in the world is probablya lot more fun. But this is
the you know, it's like theJohn Snow thing in Game of Thrones,
like the House of Dragon stuff isa lot more fun because it's not the
end all be all conflict. TheLast of Us feels like the end all
be all conflict of this universe,does it not? I mean, it

(42:05):
is about the Lanisters though, andlike the Lanister is obviously like right,
you know they are like the Skywalkersof Hood what are you Targarians? Yeah,
yeah, yeah, but but butnot really because John Snow is the
skywalker of the start of Game ofThrones. John, I know, I
know, but again, like that'ssomething I know, but it's like,

(42:28):
but it ends up being less aboutJohn Snow. But again now but now
it does feel like more about JohnSnow because we're getting a John Snow TV
show. Yeah right, which likeagain like I can't help, but wonder
I honestly can't help, but wonderingthis is what they're gonna do. Fucking
quote me, on this ship,the Ice King or the Night King is
gonna come back somehow in the fuckingJohn Snow show. And it's because there's

(42:51):
no way that George R. Martinisn't doing what he's doing in the House
of the Dragon show knowing that aJohn Snow show is coming, where he
could just say, well, thatwasn't actually the end all threat, because
whatever the next threat is is gonnabe as big or bigger, right,
it can't not be well and that'sa cop out, but fuck that show.
Fuck Game a Throne season eight.It was so bad. If they

(43:13):
want to redo it by doing aJohn Snow show, that's gonna do it.
Wait, Chris, you dislike Gameof Thrones season eight. I don't
think that's ever heard anyway. DaveSimon is doing Built the New Seat the
John Snow season. It's gonna bein nineteen seventies Baltimore and it's actually called
John's Snow. He's gonna be likeThe Wire. This is the Wire,

(43:35):
the prequel to the Wire and Hannibal. Yeah, but again, like Threads,
ultimately, with with a lot ofthese things that are adaptations, this
is a very fine line because evenwith House of the Dragon, again,
you had people that knew the narrativeand people that didn't, and people who
knew it were gonna be bored theoreticallybecause it's and thenning and thenning and thenning,

(43:55):
but that show ends up being superentertaining too. So I think the
most impressive thing right now is HBOis like operating at full capacity. It's
horrifying. But HBO is always executedlike it, I mean at least in
our lifetimes. Yeah, that's basicallybeen known for like they don't really have
creative lulls or like The Thrones iswas it being so bad in the season

(44:20):
eight was a big deal for HBO. It was a big deal. But
but it's not to say HBO hasnever produced like a bad season but holistically
but like of a show completely,I mean there's been bad I'm sure there's
been bad episode like there's I mean, I don't buy it. But there's
certain people that didn't like season twoof The Wire. I've never seen The
Wire. It's one it's it's onmy list of things to watch. Hey

(44:42):
man, you've never seen The Sopranos, brother, Like, don't be fucking
shaking my head. The Sopranos andThe Wire are one A and one B.
Like it's okay. If if Iask your favorite show you're gonna say
the Wire, right, Uh?No, The Leftovers another HBO special.
It's a real deep cut. Ifigured that would be years. Every time
I see it, I think ofyou. I've never watched it, dude.

(45:04):
It another post apocalyptic thing. Itsort of it changed, like it
is the closest to a religious experienceI've had while watching a TV show.
It's unbelievable, and it's should youknow what? You know what? We
should cover it when we're done withthis. It's like, what six episodes?
It's one it's one season, right, No, it's three seasons.
I thought it was only one.No, so it was the first.

(45:28):
It's based on a book of whichthe first season covers. Seasons two and
three were consoled with the writer.But actually, like Game of Thrones,
what totally different things, But likewe're actually better review I mean, the
first was quite well reviewed. Thefirstson is super, super depressing, which
is why a lot of people,which is why some people didn't really reson.
It's like two oppressive, but season'stwo and three a bit more optimistic

(45:50):
and a little different, and likeare pretty much universally acclaimed. So to
bring this back to the last ofus, do you think they're going to
make any substantial changes to the narratoris moving forward, because this is where
this becomes tricky. No, AndI think even Druckman and Mason have kind
of said, like it's the firstgame, Like, don't really like the
changes we made are to really makethe you know, the world a little

(46:13):
better or just to take advantage ofthe fact that you don't have to be
like killing things all the time.But I'm entertaining someone in that way,
I don't. I don't think thebig story beats are going to be that
different. We'll see, I mean, we'll see the splashback episode that I
think is based on the DLC andum like. But again they could right
like again the second season. Letme ask you a different question than do
you think the second season to thisshow is going to be the second game?

(46:35):
I think? I mean, Ithink we got confirmation the end of
this season will be the end ofthe first game. Yeah, I mean
it has to be at this pointa bit broader in scope. I could
see them splitting that into two seasons, but maybe not. Maybe they I
mean, they they could do itin one season. But my guess is,
I think I know where they're goingto end season two. We can

(46:57):
talk about that later. I thinkI know as well. I think as
well where they end season two.Again, if you know the narrative,
you know the narrative like you can'tescape, you can't if you know anything
about the Last of Us two,what we're talking about ties in directly to
how people felt about that game,to the point of I guess people not
playing that game after about the onethird point, which is yeah, well
then there's and then there's a wholelike Abbey character and just people, which

(47:20):
is where even more people checked outapparently. Yeah, I get it.
And and you know what, I'mwonder if we'll see Abby. Dude,
I was gonna say, I'm callingit right now. The after the credit
scene is gonna be introducing Abby.It's gonna be something. It's gonna be
her getting the news of what transpiresat the end of the first game.
Abbey is a major character in theLast of Us Part two. That doesn't

(47:43):
she's not really in part you neversee her physically, but another Last of
Us Part two. I listened toan interview with Craig Maysan Neil Druckman,
and they said the girl that waslike kind of creeping on. Ellie was
like they didn't officially confirm, butI think, like maybe Dina, who
becomes so very important character for Ellieand the Last of Us part two and
we actually never see in part one, so like little they can do little

(48:06):
nuggets like that to flesh out andlike like I said, even Jackson,
we knew it was in Last UsPart one, but doesn't really play a
big part of the narrative until USwas Part two. But it's like why
not, like they kind of incorporatedthe second game into the first, into
the first episode or season of theshow. Yeah, so like these these
things I think serve a purpose andyou don't have their little nuggets like the
Dina thing, Like it's cool andit connects the stories a bit better.

(48:30):
So yeah, but we'll see howthe finale ends and if we get a
bit I mean I don't I don'tthink. I don't think we're not going
to if they again, And that'swhy I said, like, do you
think it's going to have a caster? Have I mean I have it because
that's a big casting decision. Sure, I mean again, like they don't
have to announce they cast someone fora cameo scene though, like I'm I'm
I'm thinking it will be like literallylike a like cameo esque thing, like

(48:52):
a Marvel Studios type thing where yeah, like turned her back to the cam
when someone comes up to her inhands or a note or something like and
she turns around, it's like shockedface. And it's like people who know
no and people who don't understand theconnections that are going on. Mister Stark.

(49:14):
Also want to mention something you haven'tgotten to mention. Bella Ramsey is
gender fluid, and I find thatawesome, and I'm really glad that HBO
has two shows now with gender fluid. The actor who plays Um the Targarian
on Oh Yeah, the I can'tremember her name, forget I forget their

(49:36):
name. Yeah, we're so bad. I guess it's not this show.
So it's okay, we forgot.They're the best part of that show.
So yeah, and Bell, Imean, look like, as you know,
I want to mention this before weend this episode. I like Pedro
Pascal. I think what he's doingin this episode is the best Joel we've
seen so far in this show.But yeah, I'm to bring it all
the way back to Bella Ramsey.I cannot wait to see a second and

(49:59):
third season of this show, especiallyif they give it a little bit of
time for her to age up alittle bit more. And I mean not
that it's like a huge part,but you know, she probably needs to
bulk up a little bit. Getyoked. Brother, She's gonna be yoked
in season two and three of thisfucking show. Every funny, she's just
like fucking Jack Agoel Oh my god, Ellie side effect of the vaccine.

(50:29):
She's just like she can crack afucking clicker's head in between her arms.
Fuck no, I will say thatwhen I've seen Bella Ramsey like outside of
being elliet, like she definitely does. She does look young for age,
but she does look older than she'splaying in this show. So like,
with that, with them probably dressingher more age appropriately of her actual age

(50:51):
plus her aging in real time,I think it will be a bit less
jarring. And you know what theysay, Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey are
technically the same age as a ArdoDiCaprio and his girlfriend right now. So
he O, everybody, that's someslash fiction the world didn't need. It's
getting cold. Out here. It'sgetting cold out here. Joel, can
I use your sleeping bang? Notalking about the Last of Us two,

(51:15):
not the first one, Jesus,oh man, I'm stuck in a mushroom.
Come out, come help me,step dad, step Joel. Did
already exists. This is not somethingwe're creating. This is this exists already,
which is just you know, whichis just great. Thanks the Internet.
I actually had never thought about thisever before this moment. Chris,

(51:38):
You're welcome. I don't know howthe fuck you didn't somehow avoided. That's
not my fault. That's your ownfault for not going through that derivation in
your head, because it's like it, oh, just ever crossed my mind
ever. Leonardo DiCaprio and his girlfriendat this age, this age, forty

(51:58):
forty six and nineteen is that whatit is? Forty seven and nineteen year
whatever. I'm not yucking anybody's young, but Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey together
not that's a note for me,dog. I don't know. I don't
know. If you see you arenot allowed to write the next season,
the Last of Them. If itwasn't called the Last of Us, it
should be called the rest of us. These people shouldn't exist after what's going

(52:20):
on out wilderness. Jesus nice.Thanks everybody for listening to Mushrooms and Men.
We'll be back on the next episodeto talk about This isled canceled by
who the mushroom Police? Oh BigVacs. Yeah, So we're coming back
next episode to talk about Left Behind, the seventh episode of the first season

(52:44):
of the Last of Us, Andlike we've already mentioned, it is a
flashback episode. So Ellie, allday, every day, baby, which
you know what, Hey, Ithink at this point, I'm I'm game,
So we'll see. Until then,you can find your Shar and I
over at weirdingwaymedia dot com, whichis the podcast network that the Projection Booth,
Mike White and I co founded asa repository and depository for all the

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fun things that we work on together. Yum yum. As for this show
of Mushrooms and Men can be foundon iTunes and all other podcast streaming platforms
like rate and review. The showthat helps us out and that helps our
quicker friends find you a lot quicker. Until then, you can find you
shar and Eye there. We'll catchyou on the next episode.